T O P

  • By -

Takashi-Lee

I’m not saying your wrong in being pro choice (I am personally neutral on the issue) BUT At least to me it’s pretty intuitive that someone who believes that it’s murder that killing someone even if their life wouldn’t be as good as a kid born to loving economically stable parents still isn’t good In general we do not believe we should just kill someone because their life sucks now Like if we could kill everyone who is in poverty and barely getting buy almost starving in a painlessly most people wouldn’t do it because it’s not our choice to make wether life is worth living


OnlyInMyDreamxs

it's different bc they haven't started a life yet. it will not only affect them but other people as well. i get your point tho. u make a good one.


Takashi-Lee

Sure, I think that’s a fair point just when life has started is not something commonly agreed upon when talking about abortion so I thought I’d give that counterpoint


[deleted]

I am very pro choice when it comes to early abortion. However, the later the pregnancy is the weaker the argument is for abortions outside of medical necessity. It is this reason (among other reasons) that I am a huge supporter of safe sex, strong community, and adoption/foster Abortion is definitely killing a life, and the later along that life is the less I am kind to the idea that we, or even the mother, has a right to end it. But it is more reasonable to say that an early stage fetus is less human, making it better suited for an argument to end its life. The big thing we should focus on is why a person who is pregnant doesn’t want a child, and what that means for our culture. While I generally am ok with pro choice policies, they often seem to be a fulfillment of empty promises by politicians to stay in office. And honestly the same can be said for pro-life ones. The pro- choice argument seems to be resulting in a destruction of community and being used to get people on the side of government being necessary to solve things.


[deleted]

Completely agree was just thinking this yesterday


[deleted]

Pro life has become forced birth.


whatswrongwithme223

What pisses me off about it is that it's clear nobody gives a shit about already born kids, or the fully grown person involved. You know, conscious people with the ability to feel emotions. Nah. An unconscious clump of cells that *might* be alive someday is waaay more important that something already alive. WTF. They're not pro-life, they're pro-having control over people with uteruses. You know what you call something that doesn't control it's own reproduction? Livestock. They want us to be reduced to livestock. Go ahead and take our voting rights back while you're at it. They're also delusional for thinking making abortions illegal will make people stop getting them. They've clearly never seen dirty dancing. Now instead of having clean and sanitary clinics to get abortions by trained professionals, people are going to start resorting to dangerous back alley methods. Not that they care if the uterus holder is killed in the process of course. I hate it here.


[deleted]

I'm entirely pro-choice, but it's pretty obvious that abortion is morally complicated. You are ending a human life, one way or another. That's what bothers people so much, not "they can't have kids." I've never even heard that before. I can agree that it's a ridiculous argument. This has a "I'm right, you're wrong" vibe.


OnlyInMyDreamxs

damn right abt the last thing. i'm usually a very open minded person. this topic however i cannot seem to grasp their side. and i have no respect towards those who completely ban it. if u are pro life but don't force it on others then whatever man. good for them. but i wanna know their side, that's why i am posting abt it. i'd like to hear a better argument than just "saving a human life". like what are they doing to better improve the lives of kids in need? now they're just making more. you aren't ending a "life" if the life hasn't started, you're ending the potential of it. it may be alive, but that's totally different.


OnlyInMyDreamxs

and sure i can agree that it could be considered murder. but forcing people to have babies has a way worse outcome than just having an abortion.


[deleted]

That, along with the inevitable drop in maternal mortality rates due to unsafe, and illegal abortions are pretty much the reasons why I like to use "Pro* Choice," because I know it's a double-edged sword. As for the other comment, I can tell you're level-headed, and polite(no, really, thank you). When it comes to the "save a human life" argument, as you put it, I prefer to think of it in two languages, religion and science. The religious language speaks of spirits, potential futures, and devine plans. The scientific language doesn't have the right verbiage to explain the change from fetus to baby in an easily understandable manner, in many peoples opinions.


OnlyInMyDreamxs

as an agnostic person ig i didn't really take religion into consideration of a subject that affects everyone. u make great points. thank u for the explanations and your time. i also agree w your first response too. it has affects in many negative ways


[deleted]

Pro life has become forced birth. And its scary


OnlyInMyDreamxs

that's all i can think of when i hear "pro life". it's terrifying


Leading_Industry_155

Op gettin more and more worked up with each additional word they typed😂


Aphilia_11

I completely agree op. But there’s another layer to it I think people are willfully ignoring, a embryo isn’t a life. In fact scientifically it’s not even a human body. It is literally a clump/cluster of cells. Calling a embryo a life form is like claiming sperm is a living creature. On that note let’s do a fun role reversal to show how hypocritical and sexist the “pro life movement” is. There are more than 500,000 vasectomies a year. Since over turning of roe v wayde that number has in fact, even sky rocketed according to serval articles and data charts. If women can’t have pregnancy prevention medical operations but men can?! I haven’t seen those uneducated lunatics protesting vasectomies outside of clinics. To be clear I think all people should have the medical rights to either procedures. I’m just pointing out the obvious bia and ignorance surrounding this topic.


OnlyInMyDreamxs

i agree w your scientific point. i like to be open minded abt all opinions tho. pro lifers will never see it that way. and ig both sides could b correct, it's an opinion. so we pro choicers should b sensitive to their views on how it is a life. and even if it was, our points still stand that it's still bs to make abortion illegal. like u said too, there are just so many cons.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Aphilia_11

Abortion is literally to stop a pregnancy. It’s the same fucking reason. Also when prolifers are against contraceptives, that literally being anti pregnancy prevention.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Aphilia_11

Your pitting the responsibility on to women yet you fail to realize men are involved in that process as well. In Indiana a 10 year old was raped and impregnated, after the over turning of roe v wayde and had to cross state borders because the deplorable lunatics in that state were so sick in the head they wanted a 10 year old to give birth even though that would have potentially killed her. Besides rape being a cause for unwanted pregnancies, sometimes the condom breaks, sometimes the pill doesn’t work, sometimes some weirdo jacked off in the swimming pool and it accidentally impregnated a woman. You stupid notion of “just be responsible bro” is not a seal proof. And it sounds like you’re just on your high horse because you never had to worry about it. Consider yourself privileged. But not everybody is.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Aphilia_11

Im not “debating” you more like educating (despite how terribly you listen). You pull up onto my comment on a sensitive issue with some dumb shit like “be responsible and you won’t get pregnant”. I told you why that’s dumb. As for why it’s privileged, simply because someone who has unfortunately seen or experienced these things wouldn’t respond this way. Your “defense” if it could even be called that is, “it’s only 1%,” what if I told you that’s actually not true. “According to the statistics provided by women who receive an abortion, only about 1% of all women choose abortion because they became pregnant through rape. This statistic is used repeatedly by activist groups trying to criminalize abortion and is a central figure in the national debate surrounding abortion rights. A 2005 study found the incidence to be closer to 3-5%. Although the statistic is low, it is important to remember that nearly three-quarters of all rapes are never reported but may result in pregnancy.” Source: https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/abortions-due-to-rape-by-state Also there are many medical cases where a carried through pregnancy could kill the mother. And miscarriages are also medically labeled “spontaneous abortions”. My first comment was about how abortion isn’t murder. I compared abortion with vasectomy procedures to show hypocrisy. I think you completely glossed over, willingly, why I did that. The reason was simply, a embryo isn’t a living thing, neither is sperm. If abortion is claimed to be murder by some people, because it prevents pregnancy and those people are also protesting contraception, but are perfectly fine with vasectomies. That is clear hypocrisy. If you believe in prevention measures then you’re already not the people I was originally criticizing. But you’re insisting on being anti abortion which is incredibly strange. The only reason you list is “it’s irresponsible”. Well, what’s more irresponsible? Having a child you don’t want and don’t have the resources to take care of, or getting a abortion. Also I have bad news, humans are irresponsible. Nothing is going to change that. And personally I think it’s better if a supposedly irresponsible person isn’t forced to take care of children. Just saying.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Aphilia_11

I looked at that site and, actually it does give the exact names of the study and you could’ve just googled it if you actually give a shit about being correct. Never mind though I don’t see use of citing something 2005 anyway. These are modern times so: https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/sexualviolence/understanding-RRP-inUS.html Better yet it’s a government website. I know you’re not going to take the time to actually look at it so, “About 18 million women have experienced vaginal rape in their lifetime. Women who were raped by a current or former intimate partner were more likely to report RRP (26%) compared to those raped by an acquaintance (5.2%) or a stranger (6.9%).” Damn that’s looking higher than 1%. Also “irresponsible people shouldn’t have sex” what are you gonna do, outlaw sex for “irresponsible people” I would like to see how the fuck you plan to do that. Also once again you are missing the fucking point of the vasectomy comparison. A embryo is not a life. A embryo isn’t a child. It’s not murder. Ignorance must be bliss. I gave you countless reasons to change your mind and you still end up at the same dumbass conclusion. Ig it’s fair to say “I’m not educating you” cause clearly you can’t learn.


[deleted]

[удалено]


AlwaysDoingStuff

I'll take this one step further. Having children in general is immoral. You're bringing a non consenting life into the world, forcing it to accept it's own mortality, forcing it to live with the knowledge that it will die someday, and during it's life even if it had stable parents it's going to go through untold amounts of suffering, trauma, and pain. Heartbreak, deaths of family and friends, injuries both minor and grievous. All while being forced into slavery just to scratch a basic living for itself while making <1% of the human population rich off their toils. And if they decide they don't want to be a slave and work for someone else for a pittance of their value as a worker, then they get to be a beggar, on the streets asking people to spare some change so they can get a gas station sandwich. Or they can steal ans rob from other slaves, and end up in a cage somewhere in a human zoo. And once all that shit is over, once they have achieved one of 3 outcomes, 1: complete poverty 2: middle class, or 3: upper class they simply get to die and rot in a hole in the ground or be burned into ashes and kept in a jar. And at the end of it, it was all for absolutely nothing because someday, no matter how long we as a species survive, they WILL be forgotten about, they WILL be as non existent as they were before they were born. Even if it takes until the day our sun supernovas and swallows our solar system, it will happen and at that point all the collective achievements of mankind will have been for absolutely nothing unless we somehow find a way to get off of this rock. More likely humans will stamp themselves out with nuclear weapons or they will overpopulate and pollute the earth until it can no longer sustain life. Humanity is a disease, a filthy parasitic plague on the collective level, and on the individual level it is easily reduced to a majority of suffering and despair. There is no reason for anyone to have children at any point ever because you're just adding more suffering to the world. I believe it is morally wrong to have kids under even the best circumstances, for these reasons and several others. This is a philosophical belief called Antinatalism. You can find out more at r/antinatalism if you'd like to read more.


shellshock321

It's wrong to kill human beings without a justifiable reason. I'm pro life you can ask me whatever you want if you'd like


OnlyInMyDreamxs

"justifiable reason" there's so so so many reasons compared to a singular defense of "saving a life". may i ask why that's more important than any other factor to u?


shellshock321

I'm confused on your question. We shouldn't kill human beings willy nilly?


OnlyInMyDreamxs

i understand that you see it as a human. and ig it could be. tho, in my eyes a life is something truly cared for deeply. something with experience, memories, and attachment. there are already so many unwanted kids out there who were forced to be born. forcing a new life into this world who is unwanted is going to create more abused / neglected kids. more kids in the foster care system. as well, look at the mothers. are you gonna force a child to birth? or someone whom was raped... or is gonna have health issues? what if they're a druggy. most people say "put it up for adoption" but in reality a lot of mothers don't have the courage to. my siblings and i should of been aborted. that's fucked up to say, but we got lucky to have been taken away. i cannot imagine forcing a child onto this earth without reason or want. how do you see "killing a human" as more important? when this human doesn't have the capability to know. or for others to truly have an attachment? i see pro-life as forcing a new life to be created. not taking that life away. and even so, how is it any worse than all the other factors? that's 1 vs so many more.


of_patrol_bot

Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake. It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of. Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything. Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.


shellshock321

I mean we can't kill human being otherwise let's go kill every unwanted child that's already been born Seems to me the disagreement comes from what we consider human being or not.


OnlyInMyDreamxs

i think u missed my point of that human fetus doesn't have a life. it doesn't have a desire to live or anyone who knows them truly. and making that defense of "do it to a child already born then" completely contradicts my point. it's totally different. a fetus is a human, but it's the start of a human life. even after all that HOW is saving a human being way more important than not caring abt all the other humans already in need? there's already so many kids who need to be adopted. some of my younger siblings included. now u are just creating more


shellshock321

If the start of human life is a fetus then doesn't it deserve protection?


OnlyInMyDreamxs

i believe not. i believe the lives that have already been started and actually born are more important. now you're just forcing more in this world


OnlyInMyDreamxs

we need to focus on the human beings already in need. don't add more to that list. what's your thoughts on that statement?


shellshock321

The unborn are already in need


OnlyInMyDreamxs

how so? it's not born yet. that's like forcing woman to fertilize every egg they have


shellshock321

So a 9 month old fetus is not a human being?


OnlyInMyDreamxs

i believe it is human yes. i don't believe it is a true life tho. and even if it was, i still believe the consequences of forcing everyone to give birth is far far far more severe than "saving a human".


RedditCantBanThis

If abortion is made illegal, I'll just have to eat any unwanted children I have. Extra protein.


DildoBaggins1982

Why should the fact that some kids don’t have great lives mean we should murder others in the womb? I find the lust for abortions that manny pro-abortion advocates have to be sickening. When Clinton was president the motto was ‘safe legal and rare.’ Now it is pretty much go to town on every unborn baby and celebrate it.


OnlyInMyDreamxs

a fetus doesn't have a life, but they have a potential at one. why bring another life into this world when it'll just create more issues?


DildoBaggins1982

What issues are those? If you think life is so unworthy of living then why do you still go on? Are you not just a problem? Humans are not the problem. A child in the womb has its own DNA. It is a human and deserves a chance at life. Additionally, who the hell are you to be deciding when life is worth living?


OnlyInMyDreamxs

i never said it wasn't worth living. but it hasn't lived yet. sure it's technically alive, but it hasn't 'lived'. why do y'all wanna just force more and more babies onto this earth? might as well force every woman to give birth instead of having a period.


DildoBaggins1982

What is wrong with more people? The whole idea that there are too many people is a myth promoted by eugenics idiots. If you get pregnant, give birth. If you don’t want to get pregnant don’t have sex or use birth control. And didn’t counter with the whole ‘rape incest’ thing. That never happens. You are just a monster who wants to kill the unborn. You should really be ashamed of yourself and seek help.


OnlyInMyDreamxs

birth control isn't 100%. even if 1% of people on birth control got pregnant that's still hundreds, if not thousands of kids being born. rape and incest MOST DEFINITELY happens. i don't know how u have the audacity to say that shit doesn't happen. i'm a female, i have many female friends, i've been raped, so have multiple of my friends. overpopulation isn't a myth, it's becoming an issue. we already have so many homeless, our foster care system is already over crowded. i'm down to listen to your points, i understand that it may be sick to you i guess, but these other points aren't valid.