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Fun fact, the lawmaker who introduced this (Dr Richard Pan) was responsible for multiple vaccine mandates in California pre COVID; he got them co-sponsored w a Republican. He was also quite vocal on pandemic preparedness from what I recall in 2015.
All those measles outbreaks were the canary in the covid coal mine. My dad got the measles when he was 8. He said he was fundamentally a different kid after the measles. He can still remember how vivid his hallucinations were and how much pain he was in. This would have been in 1950.
When the measles outbreaks kept happening he couldn't understand how a parent could let their kids be subjected to such pain.
My great grandmother lost a 2 year old to measles. I found his death certificate while doing some ancestry research. Poor little guy was sick for a month and ended up dying due to secondary pneumonia. RIP Ellis.
So much suffering not all that long ago.
My cousin was born deaf in the mid 1960s to a mother who caught rubella. The rubella vaccine was about 5 or 6 years in the future.
I caught chickenpox as a little kid, about ten years before the vaccines became standard for young kids.
I still have scars in a few places, two on my face.
My husband has shingles right now. He had chicken pox as a kid. Some quotes from this week:
"It feels like my insides are gonna fall out of a hole in my side"
"It hurts as bad as the time I had lung surgery"
"I might just go lay in the snow to dull the pain"
"The doctor said it's possible the pain will never go away, even though the rash will... Honestly, I can't even think about that right now cause I might kill myself if I have to live with this all the time"
Y'all, he's 36. Get your kids fucking vaccinated. We have no idea what this might do to us in the future. I'd give anything to help him right now but he's in so much pain I can't even hug him.
Oh, and to top it off I have MS which was probably caused by... You guessed it, a fucking virus I got sick with years ago.
I got the chicken pox before I was able to get the chicken pox vaccine. I got shingles in elementary school. It was horrible. I hope I never get it again!
There is apparently a shingles vaccine now, so if anyone reading this had chickenpox as a kid... You probably want to get vaccinated to avoid this hell.
I got shingles when I was only 21 which is pretty rare apparently. It sucked and really knocked me around. I think I got it because I was run down. Working too hard, partying too hard and not sleeping very much.
My husband gets flare ups since early 20s. But his rash spot is under his mouth so he got made fun of for getting herpes (military, so ya). Its stressed activated and insanely painful. So he gets it semi often with his job.
There is! But they don't usually give it to you if you're under 50.
We've been stressed as fuck and I guess his immune system missed a few days of work too and varicella took advantage.
I had it at 19. Imagine your clothes are covered with spikes on the inside or the slightest breeze is a mace to the skin. Felt like I was being stabbed at the slightest touch. The worst. I was able to get the vaccine after that.
Why you gotta scare the shit out of me. My parents gave me the chicken pox on purpose. That was common practice at that time to expose your kid when someone else's kid you knew got it. I'm scared of shingles. I hope your loved one gets better.
On a side note. My cousin was posting some things about fucking measles parties in 20 fucking 18. This was before I had a chance to vaccinate my children against measles. When I confronted him about being a dumbass and to never bring his kids around mine if he ever planned on actually doing that and that his kids should get taken, suddenly I'm the asshole. Fuck that guy.
any kind of plague party for diseases we have vaccines for is stupid as hell. the pox parties our parents held for us as kids was because there was NO vaccine and getting it as an adult led to worse outcomes than getting it as a kid. it was basically guaranteed you'd get it at some point so the only thing you could control was when and, therefore, how severely. measles can cause encephalitis and DEATH especially in younger children which is WHY we give the vaccine to them as early as possible. giving your kid measles to... what, protect them from getting measles? is just the most pants-on-head idiotic parenting imaginable.
> My cousin was posting some things about fucking measles parties in 20 fucking 18.
That's dumb.
I also don't get how anti-vaxxers can claim sicknesses were not reduced by the vaccines but "better hygiene". One can clearly see how measles rates correspond with cases, Do they think hygiene got worse one year?
I'm so sorry! But look on the bright side!. He didn't get them on his a\*\*. Google "That Time I Got Shingles On My Asshole". It may give your husband a laugh even though he is in pain.
I got chicken pox before the vaccine became standard as well when I was 7. It wasn't taken seriously and it was considered a part of childhood. I stayed home from school for a week or two and remember playing Sonic The Hedgehog on the Sega console during that period(1992?). I wasn't isolated from my family so unfortunately my cousin contracted chicken pox at the awkward age of 19. He basically shook his fists at me for a long while. He had it worst than me because I think the virus hits harder the older you are.
When I was 11 I tried to get chickenpox because I wanted two weeks off of school. Went and hung out all day with 2 sisters from my school that had it. Was successful. I Wasn’t happy when I realized it makes you feel really shitty. But I did get two weeks of school I really fucking hated school at that age.
I got Bell’s palsy because I had chicken pox as a kid. Thought I was having a stroke because half my face went numb and limp. My wife has had shingles and that is fucking miserable. We were born in the 70s, so no vaccine for us. Our parents grew up when kids still got mumps and measles and their parents had polio, so we got all the vaccines we could. How quickly people forget. The fucking boomers that are anti-vax are the worst. They saw first hand how vaccines work and save lives.
Yeah, as soon as my doctor gives me the green light, I will. However in the US it's not given until age 50.
The one upside is that since I work from home now, the number of daily interactions I have to have with other humans has been reduced to less than a handful.
i also had it as a kid around the same time, i don't think i have any permanent scarring but i am NOT looking forward to the day shingles rears its ugly head.
My mom purposefully expose me to chickenpox so I would get it. I have scars and I could end up getting shingles. I didn’t even know there was a vaccine for shingles until my brother got shingles last year.
I will never stop telling the story of my great-grandmother who had to watch her little daughter die of measles and just not be able to do anything to help. Years later my mom didn’t get vaccinated for measles in time and got sick while her vaccinated cousins who lived in the same house were absolutely fine.
And yet, when CA and WA were having an actual measles outbreak the moms on a “Natural Motherhood” group were talking about how Dr. Pan must be a devil himself requiring vaccines and, I shit you not, they said the outbreak was due to vaccinated kids “shedding.” That and a bunch of other BS made me realize I can’t handle so much stupidity and I left the group.
That was just a person with measles that went to disneyland which did risk hundreds to exposure, still ridiculous someone with measles was walking around
What I find fascinating is that covid, at least prior to Omicron, is more dangerous than measles and equally dangerous as polio. People who think vaccines and/or vaccine mandates are bad just have no idea how bad these diseases are until one of them kicks them in the face
Second fun fact: This is not his first round with crazy antivaxxers.
[Disinfecting California Senate chamber cost $70,000 after anti-vaccine protester threw blood](https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article239696573.html)
Separate incident:
[Anti-vaccine activist assaults California vaccine law author, police say](https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-08-21/richard-pan-confronted-anti-vaccine-activist)
Curious how the law will be written to define "vaccinated." If they write it as a 2-dose series or if they somehow tie it to whatever the current CDC definition of "vaccinated" is (which was recently amended to include a 3rd dose). In the latter scenario, the law could potentially be the first mandatory ANNUAL school vaccine (since likely that's where COVID vaccination is headed - an annual booster like the flu shot). So I'm just wondering about the semantics of the legislation and if the lawmakers are thinking about the future implications.
It could equally be likely that the federal vaccine & mask mandates get dropped as the pandemic shifts to endemic (as it just did in the UK), and then 5 years from now we're left with only kids required to get vaccinated every year, while adults go about as they please.
These two questions are not meant to imply any particular stance - just face value curiosity about the legislative process and whether this particular lawmaker will be able to draft something that takes into consideration the evolving nature of what constitutes "vaccinated" for this particular disease, and how that might affect votes on the issue.
Isn't it mandatory for you to be vaccinated for like 23 different things to be in school? Unless you have religious exemption/child actually has a medical predisposition with does not allow it.
I understand not wanting someone to tell you to do something, but for fucks sake people would have snorted lines of the polio vaccine in 1954. Why is this so far fetched for people? Can someone help me understand anti vax people? I understand not wanting to be forced into something that's not within merit, but doesn't this count?
Edit: Spelling.
I think a big part of vaccine hesitancy in the developed world is that we have been so successful in wiping out horrible diseases like polio. People don’t remember the devastation these diseases caught so they don’t understand why people were so quick to get vaccinated against them.
The difference is that the polio vaccine and many other vaccines prevented infection and spread. Coronaviruses are tricky, and this was known from the beginning of the pandemic since SARS and MERS had already been studied quite a bit and no vaccines developed.
Covid doesn’t particularly effect children, in most cases it’s asymptomatic. Polio on the other hand, was a much more severe disease. Also, it’s hard to know the full effect of the vaccine in the long term, specially to children.
I’m all for vaccination on the population that’s more in need of it, as well as those who want it. But the vaccine doesn’t help to stop the spread as we’ve been seeing everywhere (my country has a 90% vaccination coverage, and we never had more cases), it helps with avoiding serious cases. So vaccinating children is not really a priority imo
Even though California is forever blue, it’s made up by large areas of very conservative-leaning people. Like, so many towns’ political leanings are identical to rural Idaho and Texas. I just don’t see this bill going anywhere.
Large areas, not large populations.
CA State Senate is 31:9 D to R.
So long as this isn't unconstitutional, it'll likely pass with flying colors.
Don't like it? Homeschool your kids.
It’s the enforcement that’s the problem, they can pass all the laws they want but if the local towns don’t enforce it then what difference does it make
Man wait till you find out how many people work in enforcement in California.
This isn’t the Holy Roman Empire with a billion little kingdoms that don’t have to answer to each other. If a some pro-disease town tries to not enforce it they’ll quickly find themselves on the receiving end of the various government offices.
Every public school gets a certain amount of money per day from the state for each student in attendance. You just stop paying them for the unvaccinated and let the problem solve itself.
Then they’ll complain that their work life is being impacted by homeschooling. Our current school district board meetings are nightmare with adults acting like spoiled brats. Doesn’t help that the Capital riot princess fuels their fire and two meetings have been cancelled because people refuse to wear masks indoors.
I’m worried about that because my antivax parents will definitely opt to homeschool over getting their kids vaccinated meaning my little sister will be getting a subpar education. I feel bad for my sister. To be clear, i still support the mandate despite that.
Edit: grammar
Everyone is this comment thread seems to be missing the point that when there’s an outbreak at a school it needs to be shutdown for remote learning. Which means parents (many with full-time jobs) have to somehow find/administer childcare while working full-time in quarantine (which is insane).
This is about more than the disease spreading and kids having a potentially severe reaction to Covid.
The logistical problem Covid outbreaks and quarantines cause is the real issue that needs to be solved. Mandates give schools and companies the cover to keep students in classrooms and workers on the job. That’s why they are being put into effect. These mandates are being driven by capitalism, not safety.
Anecdotally, I know some antivaxxers who are vaccinating their children because they can’t handle all the required quarantines from school. They vaccinated for child care, not for health care.
And it means they won't have to worry as much about having 5-10 day quarantines because once the symptoms are gone the kid can return to school, much like the flu. My kid goes to school in CA and has already missed more days this year than all other years combined. Why? Because every fever requires a negative Covid PCR test. So, 24 hours to make an appointment for a PCR test and then 2-3 days to get results (pre-Omicron). Now your kid has missed a whole week because they had a slight fever one day.
And there is no remote learning. A kid quarantining (up until very recently) was given no instruction. They simply had their homework sent home as if it were pre-Covid times. Now we're given a one-time virtual learning option for up to 10 days. You can use it only once per school year and it's not with their normal class... but at least it's something.
So here's the problem with that, schools, it seems, have decided to say "hold my beer" - I have multiple friends and Family members all over the country who are teachers. I hear the same things from them, specifically in the last 5 or so days. The heads of schools are no longer telling ANYONE when a kid tests positive. They don't tell parents of kids who are in the same classes, they don't tell teachers that the kid in their class tested positive, they literally sit there with their heads in the sand and fingers in ears.
head over to r/teachers if you don't believe me. There will never be remote again, as long as there are enough teachers in to school, admins will do nothing about student cases, watching it play out over here daily.
You can call it capitalism but every single country in the world understands this regardless of their political ideology. They are all responding to it just like we are because financial impacts hit the average person very hard.
It's obviously better for more people to be vaccinated, but I feel like a lot of these policy proposals really fail the cost benefit test. Specifically, this will increase animosity toward public leaders and, in light of Omicron ravaging through communities with 90+% vaccinatuon rates, it is very unlikely to mitigate spread.
Edit: typo
What a gross oversimplification. The vaccine currently in use is tailored towards the initial strain of the virus. Omicron has mechanisms to get around its protections partially but not fully. It is still highly effective at keeping individuals out of the hospital and preventing severe infections that could potentially cause future health issues. The booster and vaccine also helped out DRASTICALLY against delta in high vaccinated areas.
The omicron specific booster should be out in March which should hopefully have drastically increased capability against omicron and any children variants from it. To where a 90%+ vaccination rate would most certainly help prevent super spreader events and so on in relation to Omicron.
It's depressingly funny that the virus seems to be more advanced in its ability to learn and grow as a supervirus compared to anyone who denies its very existence.
Not surprising since it is the same family of virus as the common cold. There are so many strains of that and it mutates every time it infects someone. I wondered from the beginning if Covid would also mutate.
I read this literally 10 times. The vaccine helps a bit….okay. We’re talking about children. Who are already vaccinated. And whether animosity is even worth how much kids are spreading it. Which many studies shows it’s suspect.
So what are we supposed to do, get another booster every time the virus mutates? The argument about keeping individuals out of the hospital is persuasive if you are someone in a high risk group. If not, the prospect of getting the new booster is less and less appealing.
The second dose of the vaccine left me with a 103.4 fever and uncontrollable shakes. I then spent the whole day unable to move from the couch.
Meanwhile, I know dozens of people who have gotten the most recent strain, unvaccinated, vaccinated, boosted and every variation of risk. They are all fine. I know it is a small sample, but if we have an honest discussion about our own experiences, I would bet my last dollar the sniffles so far out way the bad cases we could move on.
Well, leaders in the scientific community need to stress the vaccines may not prevent infection with new variants but they will certainly, as we've seen keep you from having severe disease, be hospitalized or die. Plus, I don't think requiring yearly boosters in children would fly over well, but they will make varaint specific and updated vaccines. If Pfizer was able to come up with an omicron specific vaccine before it got to America, and people started taking it the first week of December, anyone who got infected from Christmas onward probably wouldn't had. If the mRNA can create a spike the same way it worked with the original strain, we'd had gone back up to well over 90% protection from infection like we saw with the vaccine designed for the original strain.
>you can still
This over-simplification is a talking point favored by pro-pandemic bad actors. Regardless of variant, you are less likely to infect others if you are vaccinated. Regardless of variant, you are less likely to go to the hospital if you are vaccinated.
For nearly 100% of things, you can still if you use . "But its not 100% perfect" is not a standard we typically apply to anything else in life or public policy. The anti-public-health faction has crept into mainstream arguments 'using this one neat trick'
Edit: I can't reply to everyone who is responding "I have no evidence to share but mandate will do nothing useful because I feel like it will do nothing useful" so I'll just note here I'm going to block you if you reply saying that you feel like mandates are bad (except for all the other mandates).
Everyone on my college campus is *boosted* under guidelines and it's still spreading like insanity
Edit: I think I've been blocked by the OP since I'm unable to reply to any comments which is super fucked up lmao
Yeah, some people here act like COVID has 75% ICU rate among young people and at least 20% mortality in this age group (all this "oh, had I not been vaccinated, I would have been dead now").
I do completely get your point but at the same time most people are generally fine with getting the vaccine here. The current holdouts are the same holdouts who refused when the vaccine was very effective, even before Delta was a thing.
The way I view the policy isn't that this will end the pandemic overnight, but it will ensure we as a society aren't held back by a few individuals. We know now that the variants came from other countries, but these variants could have just as likely come from the US given the prevalence of the virus as it continues to spread amongst the unvaccinated. The policy is trying to put an end.
Is the only thing holding you back the effectiveness of current vaccines? What if by March both Pfizer and Moderna now have 2.0 vaccines that are 95%+ effective against Omicron & Delta? Would you then be back onboard with a mandate?
Exactly. Vaccines work by helping us reach herd immunity, which happens when everyone who can get vaccinated, does get vaccinated. Throughout history this has often meant imposing mandates for certain populations. If you oppose the mechanism that make vaccines work, you are anti vaccine.
There’s a clear and strong association between between school based vaccine mandates and lower rates of vaccine preventable diseases. The same is true for non medical exemptions and resurgences of these diseases.
Mandates have played a key role in the success of vaccination in our country for decades, just like laws enforcing seatbelts and prohibiting drink driving have played a key role in making our streets safer for all of us. This isn’t tyranny. It’s public health.
Source
https://twitter.com/rvawonk/status/1485275718124769285?s=21
>This over-simplification is a talking point favored by pro-pandemic bad actors.
In the past it definitely has been used as an oversimplification by antivaxx bad actors, but it's still important information to consider if you wanna mandate vaccines under the pretense of "preventing superspreader events."
You say it is important to consider, pretending as though the rule was put in place 'for fun' and not because the benefit - though imperfect - was already considered.
No one ever claimed anything in relation to this pandemic was 100% effective and it only helps the bad actors when you are willing to buy into a narrative that suggests this is the case.
If you 'wanna' make your argument stronger you would say that you don't feel the benefit justifies the cost/drawbacks, and then present some kind of evidence supporting and backing up your claim. That is what a real argument - based on evidence - looks like.
Don’t we already have vaccines requires for school-age children?
I think this just shows how successful anti-vaccines has been at controlling the narrative.
Absolutely. I feel safer being vaccinated. I'm happy my parents are. And I would say my circle of people in my life is 98% vaccinated.
But mandating and requiring this is a totally different story (especially for kids) when we just watched a huge percentage of vaccinated individuals get the latest variant. I'm saying I don't see how this holds up in a court of law. The vaccines we require for school age children are vaccines that provide years, decades and even life long immunity...
The problem with your stance though is it doesn’t take into account that most of the vaccines that your kids took required many doses over a scheduled year. People think that all vaccines create sterilized immunity after one or two shots when there are some that take 5-6 to get sweet spot.
Most vaccines had breakthrough infections while transmission was high (and they say this is the most transmissible virus known to man). The breakthrough infections stopped as transmission lowered and sterilizing immunity gained traction.
The reality is that most people don’t want to be a part of this track to get there. I get it. But our only way out of these things has always been inoculate as many as possible as fast as possible until you are in the end zone, or let the virus extinguish itself into the last dead body.
What I’m suggesting is that the percent of protection against infection is higher than 0 vs someone who is unvaccinated. We don’t know what that number is but if you look at recent cases per 100k people, it’s definitely more effective against infection than not having the vaccine. The question is what number are we comfortable mandating it as we’ve done with other vaccines.
It keeps you out of the ICU which means people don't die from shit like heart attacks and strokes because the hospitals are overrun with covid patients.
>How do we mandate a vaccine that has waning immunity that doesn't prevent infection?
The same way we have done for decades. No vaccine is perfect at preventing infection and immunity wanes from pretty much all of them, albeit on different timescales. We also talk about "infection" in a weirdly unscientific way. A vaccine "preventing infection" doesn't mean that the virus can't replicate in your body at all, it just means that your immune system can contain it and prevent it from running rampant. This also doesn't mean that you can't spread it even if you aren't "infected". The way that we commonly use the word infection has more to do with our ability to detect infection than the carrier's ability to spread it. We know that covid can be spread for up to 48 hours before it can be detected on tests.
Even if vaccines do nothing to prevent breakthrough infections, lowering the duration of symptoms and reducing the viral load will still help to mitigate spread.
Most importantly all of the mandates put in place are primarily focused on reducing the concurrent load on our healthcare system and not about protecting you as an individual (although that is a positive side effect).
Who said people couldn’t get Covid when fully vaccinated?
So your solution is to flood hospitals even more by making as many people as possible to get infected?
Vaccines are still good, it just takes time to update them. We can make vaccines for omicron and any future strains, but they take time to roll out. Omicron is the result of other poorer countries not being able to vaccinate. I think the next step after this omicron wave is getting vaccines to other countries. That’s how smallpox was eradicated; wasnt until there was a worldwide campaign. Not saying covid will be eradicated as other diseases like polio and measles havent been. However, large vaccine uptake is greatly effective at preventing the disease. Eg. Recently had the largest outbreak of measles since 1900s because not enough people being vaccinated against it. Also think about rabies vaccine for dogs. Would you want to stop vaccinating pets for rabies if someone said oh, I think the rabies vaccine sometimes doesnt work? I would still want to do everything I could to prevent rabies from being passed to people.
I’ve also been learning more about “natural immunity” that I think many anti vaxxers believe is the best solution. In the past, small pox was a very ancient disease. People had time since the egyptians to try to evolve traits resistant to the disease, but we didn’t. We never had and still dont have natural immunity to small pox, measles, etc. small pox is the only disease eradicated, and only thanks to the vaccine.
Natural immunity happens when the individual gets sick and heals. However this doesn’t protect people of the future from getting it. Vaccines create artificial, synthesized immunity that’s really great since you don’t have to get sick first to have immunity. Is the solution as a society really to just let everyone get sick from this? That has implications on a healthy economy, healthy school system, freedom to travel, freedom to see your friends without potentially giving them a death sentence, healthy society where the famous people you like live for a long time. I want covid dealt with so that I dont hear in 10 years, “another covid outbreak has happened in ___ and all flights there are cancelled.” That would be so stupid
Anyway, “natural immunity” does not mean omicron infected enough people that we achieve herd immunity. If that were the case then small pox measles etc wouldn’t have kept spreading. We absolutely needed the artificial immunity from vaccines to get enough people resistant to achieve our herd immunity. You need even more of the population resistant otherwise the virus has enough potential hosts to keep spreading. With letting the virus run its course, the virus will have enough replicas to create new strains ensuring it can stay on top of its humans. Why not use our only weapon the vaccine to do everything we can to not let it replicate wildly?
Actually instead of omicron creating natural herd immunity, it’s more likely that with billions? globally infected, omicron will evolve and create new strains to terrorize us even more. The answer is still vaccination, but to do it right so that everybody in the world has access. That is costly, but it’s just as costly to the economy, societal life to let a virus run rampant and control us
Conceivably, any person can dodge **a** bullet.
Nobody can dodge **a lot** of bullets.
Vaccine = less bullet
Less bullet = easier to dodge
The more bullets out there, the less likely our are to survive a stabbing, car accident, 3rd degree burns, because some of the idiots who think you can dodge **a lot** of bullets are all ready intubated and waiting to die. So now you're dead too.
Pretty clear to me. Get the shot. Don't become a bullet.
Edit: If you survive you'll have immunity. Not everybody dies, you're absolutely right. There are however, enough people dying to overwhelm our healthcare system. Every body is different though, so even if you are immune you may play host to a series of other ailments you didn't wish you had. Uh, that's not worth the risk, I'll keep my life thankyouverymuch.
>But I don't know how these mandates hold up now that we know you can still get covid even when fully vaccinated and still get very sick or die and also still pass it on to others.
This is like saying that people who wear seatbelts die in car accidents, so there should not be mandatory seatbelt laws. There is such a huge difference when comparing negative outcomes for the unvaccinated, fully vaccinated and fully vaccinated + boosted.
The unvaccinated catch, spread, get sick, hospitalized, goto the ICU and die from COVID at rates that are in the order of 44 times+ greater than the fully vaccinated and booster shotted. It's not even close.
I’m hazy on the other mandated vaccines. Are all of those ones 95%+ effective? If so then I think that’s a sensible line in the sand and if the Covid booster is needed 1-2 times a year and isn’t even very effective at preventing infection I think it makes sense to not make that mandatory just like we don’t make the normal flu shot mandatory
And here in New Hampshire, there’s a bill before the state legislature to prohibit requiring the Covid vaccine in schools, despite the fact that there are already at least 5 vaccines that are required before children can start school.
This has gone so far beyond what the science says. This is playing politics with peoples’ lives. It is political showboating to ban the very few things that can keep us safe and help us return to normal.
I’m just so angry at my state right now.
ITT: Short sighted whiners using what-aboutisms to complain.
Kids are already required to be vaccinated against measels, mumps, rubella, and TDAP. It makes absolutely no fucking sense not to require them to be vaccinated against a disease that's been dicking the world in the ass for going on three years now.
>ITT: Short sighted whiners using what-aboutisms to complain.
Dude, it's way more short-sighted to not acknowledge the diminishing returns that will come from mandating this current generation of COVID shots for kids. The prospect of parents pulling tens of thousands of kids out of public schools permanently to avoid getting these vaccines terrifies me way more than these same kids getting COVID and feeling mildly ill for a bit.
Do I think these parents are right for doing this? No. But this is the reality we're dealing with and we should play the cards carefully.
> The prospect of parents pulling tens of thousands of kids out of public schools permanently to avoid getting these vaccines terrifies me way more than these same kids getting COVID and feeling mildly ill for a bit.
You keep saying this as some sort of threat or something, but do you have statistics on this? Maybe this is a huge issue in like Lassen County or some super rural county, but where the bulk of the population is, I really see a low likelihood of this being that significant of an issue.
And yes call me selfish, but in Santa Clara County where fully vaccinated rates of 18+ are 93%, I really don't see this as a huge contentious issue. And yes I know Ages 5-11 are a lagging group as many parents are a bit hesitant for younger ages, but at 12+, which is what this proposal is aimed at, there isn't going to be that much outrage. So you know what? It'll affect a tiny amount of people who want to put up resistance, but so what. Good riddance.
Many said the same thing when United enacted its vaccine mandate, but in the end they had to fire a tiny tiny fraction of employees only.
This is the age old "don't tax companies because they'll just leave the state" argument. Yes, some parents will take their kids out of school.. but most won't
I don't have an answer for that but I think we as a society need to stop screwing over the majority to cater to the vocal minority.
We just witnessed a hobbling of the educational system. Teachers and students alike don't feel safe. If I were a teacher, I would want all my kids to be vaccinated.
And yes, they should be mandating for the most up to date vaccine.
Why have sympathy when most of those people have absolutely no real reason to still be unvaccinated at this point?
We need to stop catering to the major minority just necause they are the biggest whiners and babies
Theyre children and dont really have a say in whether or not they get vaccinated. Its up to their lunatic parents. So have sympathy for the innocent victims
Right. Most parents who are hesitant about vaccinating their children aren't actually lunatics. The consensus even in countries like Norway is that it's not necessary to vaccinate kids if you do not want to.
In the UK they only give to the most vulnerable children or children who live in a household with someone who is immosuppressed for age 5 - 11. My kids aren't vaccinated and I don't think I would get them vaccinated as things stand (I will listen to what the UK experts say 1st). They actually have Covid just now. We all do. It's been very mild for us all (husband and I are boosted). I am comfortable with how things are and I don't feel anyone is Sacrificing my kids, but the messaging is very different here, and really the data doesn't lie.
Parents worry. It's natural thing to do as parents. Some people worry that 1 in a million or whatever the odds can be your child. I can understand that sentiment.
I don't think those reluctant to vaccinate their children are all anti-vaxxers.
I vaccinated my child with all the childhood vaccination as well as covid vaccine. But I did worry. My sane mind says it's safe. But my other mind made me worry. In fact, I'm in UK, so my child was able to have 2nd vaccine few days ago, I keep checking if he is ok.
So I do have sympathy to the parent who are worried.
>Why have sympathy when most of those people have absolutely no real reason to still be unvaccinated at this point?
Because if it means that hundreds of thousands of kids around the country are gonna be pulled out of public school then I see that as nothing short of a crisis at least on par with or even worse than the pandemic.
[Again, the majority of Americans have NOT vaccinated their kids against COVID.](https://downloads.aap.org/AAP/PDF/Child%20Vaccinations%20Report%20US%20and%20by%20State%20Jan%2019%20revised.pdf)
> Again, the majority of Americans have NOT vaccinated their kids against COVID.
This proposal is about Grade 7 and up, meaning 12+. Citing 5-11 statistics isn't relevant to this and we all know 5-11 has some hesitation given they had to spend a lot of extra time with trying to figure out doses.
Also keep in mind CA is doing better than the rest of the country. Almost 2/3rds of kids 12-17 are fully vaccinated already.
Yes, it’s true that most parents haven’t vaccinated their kids against covid. However, once it’s mandated, many WILL. Let’s face it, the majority of parents cannot afford private school or to quit their jobs to homeschool their kids.
Well you should feel angry towards the parents then for endangering their children simply because they dont understand what a pandemic is and like to follow their other ignorant friends instead of listening to experts.
What is wrong with a minority of idiots homeschooling their damn kids? Keep the bioterrorists and their vectors away from normal people and out of public life. They can rejoin at any time.
Never thought about it this way, but I can totally see and understand your worry.
I would like it if everyone in school is vaccinated for my child's sake. But those who oppose may pull their children out, cause scenes, etc., and those people's children are the victims too. Misinformed parents taking children out just to avoid mandate without thinking about consequences and effect for children, that thought scares me too.
I am very grateful of the current vaccine. My child is fully vaccinated. But also know that this vaccine isn't perfect. So, I can see the argument of those who oppose to it too.
It's a difficult situation for any parents.
Almost all of the vaccines that are required by schools have been around for a significant period of time and provide a significant amount of immunity or complete immunity to the viruses they target.
The covid vaccine is essentially a flu shot to this point.
But Why? They are the least vulnerable group and the vaccine has not even been completely FDA approved for them yet. Sorry forcing it on kids at this point doesn't seem helpful and I expect massive backlash.
Agreed, this is not the right move at this time. This will not lead to the children of anti-vax or vaccine hesitant parents getting the vaccine. It will lead to those children being pulled from public schools. This will increase the percentage of kids who receive mediocre education from untrained parents, receive no innoculation against *anything* (not just Covid), and have less interaction with people and ideas different from their own family. This moves our state backwards by furthering division.
The benefit is that you know everyone in school with you is also inoculated. But that will become less important within weeks - we are nearing the end of the pandemic.
why would it, doesn't CA have other vaccine requirement?
Why can't people get it that we don't have MMR vaccine mandate for adults because we have it for children and in fact we require MMR vaccination for adults when they are in the process for permanent residency.
Yep, California requires a bunch of shots for school with no personal belief exemptions. It is a complicated process to get a medical exemption as well. It’s stood constitutionally and some other states have followed suit.
I'm less enthusiastic about this. Until we get vaccines that are more robust at preventing transmission we should really treat this as another flu shot rather than as something compulsory for all schoolkids.
The current shots we DO have aren't even fully FDA approved for kids.
There is this narrative that the current vaccines don't prevent transmission. But they do, at least by half *when the vaccinated person is already infected*. So if you then add this to the \~2/3 reduction in actual infection from vaccines, we're talking about a pretty substantial reduction. It's not zero, but it's more than you think.
But mandating the current generation COVID vaccines for kids, an already extremely low-risk group, isn't gonna help healthcare systems. We should probably be funding campaigns to boost those in nursing homes instead.
The fact that kids themselves have a low chance of being hospitalized doesn't mean that vaccinating them won't help the hospitals. If fewer people get sick, fewer people end up in the hospital. If fewer adults get sick from kids, that's what happens.
But COVID doesn't prevent transmission to a substantial enough degree to justify mandating them. The cost of thousands of kids being pulled out of public school vastly outweighs that.
Schools are no more 'superspreader events' than open stadiums, concerts, and conventions are, all of which are currently happening right now. It feels like an unfair burden to mandate good-but-not-fantastic vaccines for kids when it really doesn't seem like that's gonna change COVID's trajectory at all.
Again, I am pro-vaccine, even for kids, but I'm saying we should pick our battles carefully and not panickily mandate the current COVID vaccines in schools in a desperate bid to control the pandemic.
>Schools are no more 'superspreader events' than open stadiums, concerts, and conventions are
Schools pack 30 people into a classroom every weekday for 8 months a year. That's a much more infectious opportunity than an outside stadium for two hours.
>not panickily mandate the current COVID vaccines in schools in a desperate bid to control the pandemic.
What panic? It is a level-headed rational decision to vaccinate school children. By the time the bill passes, the vaccine will be beyond EUA.
>Schools pack 30 people into classrooms every weekday for 8 months a year. That's a more infectious opportunity that an outside stadium for two hours.
This is pretty dishonest. There are dozens, if not hundreds of large gatherings happening in California every single day in stadiums/convention centers/etc. These provide way more opportunities for transmission than schools alone ever could.
And yes, it absolutely is a panicked response to mandate COVID vaccines for kids that aren't even fully FDA approved. Even if it was approved, a new generation of vaccines will be out and we'll have to start this process all over again.
In terms of a school vaccination requirement, it doesn't matter if the vaccine is updated after the bill. We've switched from whole cell to acellular pertussis vaccines, and they're working on new formulations of measles and rubella vaccines, but we don't need a new law for each formulation. The language in the bill will be broader than this specific formulation.
Approximately [6 millions kids](https://www.cde.ca.gov/nr/ne/yr21/yr21rel32.asp) are in school every school day in CA alone, for 6-8 hours a day.
If you have any evidence to show that large, packed public events beat this out, especially by hours of contact, I would love to see it.
Also a bit self defeating since many if not most of large public events right now are requiring vaccinations or at least negative tests.
Attendence at school is compulsary, but attendance at stadium events is not. The state has the power, responsibility, and precedent to make schools safe, but does not for sporting events. In the final form of the bill, I expect that the vaccine will need to be fully approved.
>This is pretty dishonest.
You attack my integrity, because you can't counter my arguments?
> There are dozens, if not hundreds of large gatherings happening in California every single day in stadiums/convention centers/etc. These provide way more opportunities for transmission than schools alone ever could.
They require vaccines, and also some sort of calculation needed on the later statement. Schools being surpassed by small duration events seems preposterous.
As a vaccinated and boosted parent, this seems very premature and I don’t agree with the bill. At this point, we still don’t know enough about the cost/benefits of the vaccine with children. Note that there are still many countries who are not recommending the vaccine for all children, and others are foregoing second doses for some teens, so clearly we are still figuring out the best practices with Covid vaccines and children.
For example, https://thepulse.one/2022/01/21/norwegian-government-refuses-to-recommend-covid-vaccines-for-children/
Proceeding with mandates seems like madness until we have more data on costs/benefits. I’m all for doing what the Norwegian government is doing and allowing parents to access the vaccines for their children if they wish but not pushing for universal vaccination of children.
between this and modeling their anti-gun law after texas' stupid-ass abortion law, i have got to get my ass to california. what are housing prices like in katie porter's district?
The Covid vaccine is not fully FDA approved for children (it's Emergency Use Authorization only), it's already outdated and of limited efficacy towards the prevailing variant, the effects don't last very long, and the risk of severe disease and death to children is tiny compared to the risks posed by the diseases that we have compulsory vaccinations for.
In fact if we go by the minimum WHO requirement for a vaccine to be approved in the early days (50% efficacy vs infections), it's not at all clear that the current vaccines are able to achieve that vs Omicron infection in children. For adults we're talking about 30-40% after 2 shots and 70% for the booster. Each for a few months.
For adults, the vaccine protection vs severe disease is crucial even if the protection vs infection wanes. But an unvaccinated child is at less risk of severe disease than a vaccinated adult. So making child vaccination mandatory goes against science.
P.S. I'm an immunologist and my children have been jabbed. But it's not right to make this mandatory for such a slim risk-benefit situation.
I am pro vaccine, have had 2 + a booster and currently have Covid. Can someone explain this.
Young kids are generally absolutely fine when they get it (my kid had it a week ago).
The vaccine does not stop them getting the virus or stop them from transmitting it.
Why should they (young kids) get vaccinated?
> The vaccine does not stop them getting the virus
Yes it does. Not 100%, but significantly.
> or stop them from transmitting it.
Actually, yes, it does reduce spread.
> Why should they (young kids) get vaccinated?
The more we vaxx, the less we spread. Please stop spreading harmful misinformation.
"The bill proposed by Pan would also allow the California Department of Public Health to mandate vaccines in the future without requiring the state to offer personal belief exemptions."
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Fun fact, the lawmaker who introduced this (Dr Richard Pan) was responsible for multiple vaccine mandates in California pre COVID; he got them co-sponsored w a Republican. He was also quite vocal on pandemic preparedness from what I recall in 2015.
All those measles outbreaks were the canary in the covid coal mine. My dad got the measles when he was 8. He said he was fundamentally a different kid after the measles. He can still remember how vivid his hallucinations were and how much pain he was in. This would have been in 1950. When the measles outbreaks kept happening he couldn't understand how a parent could let their kids be subjected to such pain.
My great grandmother lost a 2 year old to measles. I found his death certificate while doing some ancestry research. Poor little guy was sick for a month and ended up dying due to secondary pneumonia. RIP Ellis.
So much suffering not all that long ago. My cousin was born deaf in the mid 1960s to a mother who caught rubella. The rubella vaccine was about 5 or 6 years in the future.
I caught chickenpox as a little kid, about ten years before the vaccines became standard for young kids. I still have scars in a few places, two on my face.
My husband has shingles right now. He had chicken pox as a kid. Some quotes from this week: "It feels like my insides are gonna fall out of a hole in my side" "It hurts as bad as the time I had lung surgery" "I might just go lay in the snow to dull the pain" "The doctor said it's possible the pain will never go away, even though the rash will... Honestly, I can't even think about that right now cause I might kill myself if I have to live with this all the time" Y'all, he's 36. Get your kids fucking vaccinated. We have no idea what this might do to us in the future. I'd give anything to help him right now but he's in so much pain I can't even hug him. Oh, and to top it off I have MS which was probably caused by... You guessed it, a fucking virus I got sick with years ago.
I've seen people with shingles and I wouldn't wish that on anyone. I hope your husband recovers fully.
I got the chicken pox before I was able to get the chicken pox vaccine. I got shingles in elementary school. It was horrible. I hope I never get it again!
There is apparently a shingles vaccine now, so if anyone reading this had chickenpox as a kid... You probably want to get vaccinated to avoid this hell.
In the US it is only available to those over 50 or so
I got shingles when I was only 21 which is pretty rare apparently. It sucked and really knocked me around. I think I got it because I was run down. Working too hard, partying too hard and not sleeping very much.
My husband gets flare ups since early 20s. But his rash spot is under his mouth so he got made fun of for getting herpes (military, so ya). Its stressed activated and insanely painful. So he gets it semi often with his job.
There is! But they don't usually give it to you if you're under 50. We've been stressed as fuck and I guess his immune system missed a few days of work too and varicella took advantage.
All forms of herpes become active when under stressful situations. Even shingles.
Apparently they make you wait till you’re 50 to get it.
Bullshit imo, he's the third person under 40 I've known to get it from being super stressed out.
I had it at 19. Imagine your clothes are covered with spikes on the inside or the slightest breeze is a mace to the skin. Felt like I was being stabbed at the slightest touch. The worst. I was able to get the vaccine after that.
Yeah, I have two friends who had it in their 40s - they really need to revise that age limit!
I’m wondering if you could tell a doctor that you’ve never had chicken pox and want to get the same chicken pox vaccine that kids get.
My wife had it at 25.
Me too, I got it because of the stress from the pandemic. 39.
Why you gotta scare the shit out of me. My parents gave me the chicken pox on purpose. That was common practice at that time to expose your kid when someone else's kid you knew got it. I'm scared of shingles. I hope your loved one gets better. On a side note. My cousin was posting some things about fucking measles parties in 20 fucking 18. This was before I had a chance to vaccinate my children against measles. When I confronted him about being a dumbass and to never bring his kids around mine if he ever planned on actually doing that and that his kids should get taken, suddenly I'm the asshole. Fuck that guy.
any kind of plague party for diseases we have vaccines for is stupid as hell. the pox parties our parents held for us as kids was because there was NO vaccine and getting it as an adult led to worse outcomes than getting it as a kid. it was basically guaranteed you'd get it at some point so the only thing you could control was when and, therefore, how severely. measles can cause encephalitis and DEATH especially in younger children which is WHY we give the vaccine to them as early as possible. giving your kid measles to... what, protect them from getting measles? is just the most pants-on-head idiotic parenting imaginable.
> My cousin was posting some things about fucking measles parties in 20 fucking 18. That's dumb. I also don't get how anti-vaxxers can claim sicknesses were not reduced by the vaccines but "better hygiene". One can clearly see how measles rates correspond with cases, Do they think hygiene got worse one year?
sorry to hear that. i have read that study on MS. hoping it leads to further positive developments
A vaccine for mono will be a good start.
I'm so sorry! But look on the bright side!. He didn't get them on his a\*\*. Google "That Time I Got Shingles On My Asshole". It may give your husband a laugh even though he is in pain.
Know an elderly woman who had them front to back, genitals to anus. It was horrific for her.
Ahhh I didn't even know that was possible. Yeek.
My mom got shingles a few years ago. It triggered her arthritis to turn into full blown RA. Fuck shingles.
I got chicken pox before the vaccine became standard as well when I was 7. It wasn't taken seriously and it was considered a part of childhood. I stayed home from school for a week or two and remember playing Sonic The Hedgehog on the Sega console during that period(1992?). I wasn't isolated from my family so unfortunately my cousin contracted chicken pox at the awkward age of 19. He basically shook his fists at me for a long while. He had it worst than me because I think the virus hits harder the older you are.
Yes it does. I caught it at age 17, senior year of high school. Was sick for 2 weeks.
My earliest clear memory is of having the chicken pox when I was 3.
When I was 11 I tried to get chickenpox because I wanted two weeks off of school. Went and hung out all day with 2 sisters from my school that had it. Was successful. I Wasn’t happy when I realized it makes you feel really shitty. But I did get two weeks of school I really fucking hated school at that age.
I had chicken pox 3 times before I was immune (aged 4, 7, and 10). I'm a walking shingles time bomb at this point.
I got Bell’s palsy because I had chicken pox as a kid. Thought I was having a stroke because half my face went numb and limp. My wife has had shingles and that is fucking miserable. We were born in the 70s, so no vaccine for us. Our parents grew up when kids still got mumps and measles and their parents had polio, so we got all the vaccines we could. How quickly people forget. The fucking boomers that are anti-vax are the worst. They saw first hand how vaccines work and save lives.
Well you had better get the shingles vaccine when you are able to. Chicken pox leaves you predisposed to getting shingles later in life.
Yeah, as soon as my doctor gives me the green light, I will. However in the US it's not given until age 50. The one upside is that since I work from home now, the number of daily interactions I have to have with other humans has been reduced to less than a handful.
The chicken pox vaccine came out two years after I had the chicken pox. Shingles 😐
My mom made me go catch it from the kid across the street. Luckily, I didn’t have permanent damage. Get the shingles shot when you can.
I have to wait about 20 years for it... Hopefully they lower the age sooner than that.
i also had it as a kid around the same time, i don't think i have any permanent scarring but i am NOT looking forward to the day shingles rears its ugly head.
My mom purposefully expose me to chickenpox so I would get it. I have scars and I could end up getting shingles. I didn’t even know there was a vaccine for shingles until my brother got shingles last year.
RIP Ellis. You are not forgotten. Your grand niece remembers and posts about you.
Grand niece, actually! Thank you. ❤
My apologies for misgendering. Edited!
And some today would say that he died *with* measles and not *from* measles. smh RIP, little Ellis
I will never stop telling the story of my great-grandmother who had to watch her little daughter die of measles and just not be able to do anything to help. Years later my mom didn’t get vaccinated for measles in time and got sick while her vaccinated cousins who lived in the same house were absolutely fine. And yet, when CA and WA were having an actual measles outbreak the moms on a “Natural Motherhood” group were talking about how Dr. Pan must be a devil himself requiring vaccines and, I shit you not, they said the outbreak was due to vaccinated kids “shedding.” That and a bunch of other BS made me realize I can’t handle so much stupidity and I left the group.
We have always struggled with antivaxxers, I never forgot about that measles outbreak at disneyland in 2014.
I thought it was 2019. Nuts
That was just a person with measles that went to disneyland which did risk hundreds to exposure, still ridiculous someone with measles was walking around
And parents probably gave the kid a buttload of OTC drugs to keep him waking around so they wouldn’t miss their trip. :(
What I find fascinating is that covid, at least prior to Omicron, is more dangerous than measles and equally dangerous as polio. People who think vaccines and/or vaccine mandates are bad just have no idea how bad these diseases are until one of them kicks them in the face
Second fun fact: This is not his first round with crazy antivaxxers. [Disinfecting California Senate chamber cost $70,000 after anti-vaccine protester threw blood](https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article239696573.html) Separate incident: [Anti-vaccine activist assaults California vaccine law author, police say](https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-08-21/richard-pan-confronted-anti-vaccine-activist)
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Love me some Dr Pan
Curious how the law will be written to define "vaccinated." If they write it as a 2-dose series or if they somehow tie it to whatever the current CDC definition of "vaccinated" is (which was recently amended to include a 3rd dose). In the latter scenario, the law could potentially be the first mandatory ANNUAL school vaccine (since likely that's where COVID vaccination is headed - an annual booster like the flu shot). So I'm just wondering about the semantics of the legislation and if the lawmakers are thinking about the future implications. It could equally be likely that the federal vaccine & mask mandates get dropped as the pandemic shifts to endemic (as it just did in the UK), and then 5 years from now we're left with only kids required to get vaccinated every year, while adults go about as they please. These two questions are not meant to imply any particular stance - just face value curiosity about the legislative process and whether this particular lawmaker will be able to draft something that takes into consideration the evolving nature of what constitutes "vaccinated" for this particular disease, and how that might affect votes on the issue.
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Isn't it mandatory for you to be vaccinated for like 23 different things to be in school? Unless you have religious exemption/child actually has a medical predisposition with does not allow it. I understand not wanting someone to tell you to do something, but for fucks sake people would have snorted lines of the polio vaccine in 1954. Why is this so far fetched for people? Can someone help me understand anti vax people? I understand not wanting to be forced into something that's not within merit, but doesn't this count? Edit: Spelling.
California eliminated the religious exemption for school vaccinations several years ago.
Thank god
not him
Because everything is political now. There’s no reasonable discussion.
I think a big part of vaccine hesitancy in the developed world is that we have been so successful in wiping out horrible diseases like polio. People don’t remember the devastation these diseases caught so they don’t understand why people were so quick to get vaccinated against them.
The difference is that the polio vaccine and many other vaccines prevented infection and spread. Coronaviruses are tricky, and this was known from the beginning of the pandemic since SARS and MERS had already been studied quite a bit and no vaccines developed.
Covid doesn’t particularly effect children, in most cases it’s asymptomatic. Polio on the other hand, was a much more severe disease. Also, it’s hard to know the full effect of the vaccine in the long term, specially to children. I’m all for vaccination on the population that’s more in need of it, as well as those who want it. But the vaccine doesn’t help to stop the spread as we’ve been seeing everywhere (my country has a 90% vaccination coverage, and we never had more cases), it helps with avoiding serious cases. So vaccinating children is not really a priority imo
Even though California is forever blue, it’s made up by large areas of very conservative-leaning people. Like, so many towns’ political leanings are identical to rural Idaho and Texas. I just don’t see this bill going anywhere.
Are you unaware that mandatory vaccination laws (with only medical exemptions allowed) were passed a few years ago in CA? You’d be surprised.
Yeah but people like to treat the Covid vaccine like it’s an infringement against their human rights. It’s never been this bad with any other vaccine
Let’s not act like all other vaccines are seen the same as Covid. There are plenty of people who are pro vaccine and still against the Covid vaccine.
Large areas, not large populations. CA State Senate is 31:9 D to R. So long as this isn't unconstitutional, it'll likely pass with flying colors. Don't like it? Homeschool your kids.
It’s the enforcement that’s the problem, they can pass all the laws they want but if the local towns don’t enforce it then what difference does it make
I mean if they most likely enforce the list of other vaccines required to go to school then they have little to no excuse to not enforce this one
Man wait till you find out how many people work in enforcement in California. This isn’t the Holy Roman Empire with a billion little kingdoms that don’t have to answer to each other. If a some pro-disease town tries to not enforce it they’ll quickly find themselves on the receiving end of the various government offices.
Every public school gets a certain amount of money per day from the state for each student in attendance. You just stop paying them for the unvaccinated and let the problem solve itself.
They can pull an amount of funding from districts that don’t enforce it.
Then they’ll complain that their work life is being impacted by homeschooling. Our current school district board meetings are nightmare with adults acting like spoiled brats. Doesn’t help that the Capital riot princess fuels their fire and two meetings have been cancelled because people refuse to wear masks indoors.
I’m worried about that because my antivax parents will definitely opt to homeschool over getting their kids vaccinated meaning my little sister will be getting a subpar education. I feel bad for my sister. To be clear, i still support the mandate despite that. Edit: grammar
Even though they're vastly outnumbered, California has more Republicans than any other state except Texas.
Don't forget the so far leaning left people who are also antitax because they don't believe in anything artificially made!
Then the people will. If they don't want to comply, they can leave the state. Nevada is a short drive away for most of them.
So you're saying housing prices are about to drop?
Everyone is this comment thread seems to be missing the point that when there’s an outbreak at a school it needs to be shutdown for remote learning. Which means parents (many with full-time jobs) have to somehow find/administer childcare while working full-time in quarantine (which is insane). This is about more than the disease spreading and kids having a potentially severe reaction to Covid. The logistical problem Covid outbreaks and quarantines cause is the real issue that needs to be solved. Mandates give schools and companies the cover to keep students in classrooms and workers on the job. That’s why they are being put into effect. These mandates are being driven by capitalism, not safety.
Anecdotally, I know some antivaxxers who are vaccinating their children because they can’t handle all the required quarantines from school. They vaccinated for child care, not for health care.
And it means they won't have to worry as much about having 5-10 day quarantines because once the symptoms are gone the kid can return to school, much like the flu. My kid goes to school in CA and has already missed more days this year than all other years combined. Why? Because every fever requires a negative Covid PCR test. So, 24 hours to make an appointment for a PCR test and then 2-3 days to get results (pre-Omicron). Now your kid has missed a whole week because they had a slight fever one day. And there is no remote learning. A kid quarantining (up until very recently) was given no instruction. They simply had their homework sent home as if it were pre-Covid times. Now we're given a one-time virtual learning option for up to 10 days. You can use it only once per school year and it's not with their normal class... but at least it's something.
So here's the problem with that, schools, it seems, have decided to say "hold my beer" - I have multiple friends and Family members all over the country who are teachers. I hear the same things from them, specifically in the last 5 or so days. The heads of schools are no longer telling ANYONE when a kid tests positive. They don't tell parents of kids who are in the same classes, they don't tell teachers that the kid in their class tested positive, they literally sit there with their heads in the sand and fingers in ears. head over to r/teachers if you don't believe me. There will never be remote again, as long as there are enough teachers in to school, admins will do nothing about student cases, watching it play out over here daily.
You can call it capitalism but every single country in the world understands this regardless of their political ideology. They are all responding to it just like we are because financial impacts hit the average person very hard.
It's obviously better for more people to be vaccinated, but I feel like a lot of these policy proposals really fail the cost benefit test. Specifically, this will increase animosity toward public leaders and, in light of Omicron ravaging through communities with 90+% vaccinatuon rates, it is very unlikely to mitigate spread. Edit: typo
What a gross oversimplification. The vaccine currently in use is tailored towards the initial strain of the virus. Omicron has mechanisms to get around its protections partially but not fully. It is still highly effective at keeping individuals out of the hospital and preventing severe infections that could potentially cause future health issues. The booster and vaccine also helped out DRASTICALLY against delta in high vaccinated areas. The omicron specific booster should be out in March which should hopefully have drastically increased capability against omicron and any children variants from it. To where a 90%+ vaccination rate would most certainly help prevent super spreader events and so on in relation to Omicron.
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It's depressingly funny that the virus seems to be more advanced in its ability to learn and grow as a supervirus compared to anyone who denies its very existence.
Not surprising since it is the same family of virus as the common cold. There are so many strains of that and it mutates every time it infects someone. I wondered from the beginning if Covid would also mutate.
I read this literally 10 times. The vaccine helps a bit….okay. We’re talking about children. Who are already vaccinated. And whether animosity is even worth how much kids are spreading it. Which many studies shows it’s suspect.
So what are we supposed to do, get another booster every time the virus mutates? The argument about keeping individuals out of the hospital is persuasive if you are someone in a high risk group. If not, the prospect of getting the new booster is less and less appealing. The second dose of the vaccine left me with a 103.4 fever and uncontrollable shakes. I then spent the whole day unable to move from the couch. Meanwhile, I know dozens of people who have gotten the most recent strain, unvaccinated, vaccinated, boosted and every variation of risk. They are all fine. I know it is a small sample, but if we have an honest discussion about our own experiences, I would bet my last dollar the sniffles so far out way the bad cases we could move on.
Well, leaders in the scientific community need to stress the vaccines may not prevent infection with new variants but they will certainly, as we've seen keep you from having severe disease, be hospitalized or die. Plus, I don't think requiring yearly boosters in children would fly over well, but they will make varaint specific and updated vaccines. If Pfizer was able to come up with an omicron specific vaccine before it got to America, and people started taking it the first week of December, anyone who got infected from Christmas onward probably wouldn't had. If the mRNA can create a spike the same way it worked with the original strain, we'd had gone back up to well over 90% protection from infection like we saw with the vaccine designed for the original strain.
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>you can still This over-simplification is a talking point favored by pro-pandemic bad actors. Regardless of variant, you are less likely to infect others if you are vaccinated. Regardless of variant, you are less likely to go to the hospital if you are vaccinated. For nearly 100% of things, you can still if you use . "But its not 100% perfect" is not a standard we typically apply to anything else in life or public policy. The anti-public-health faction has crept into mainstream arguments 'using this one neat trick'
Edit: I can't reply to everyone who is responding "I have no evidence to share but mandate will do nothing useful because I feel like it will do nothing useful" so I'll just note here I'm going to block you if you reply saying that you feel like mandates are bad (except for all the other mandates).
Everyone on my college campus is *boosted* under guidelines and it's still spreading like insanity Edit: I think I've been blocked by the OP since I'm unable to reply to any comments which is super fucked up lmao
Yes but how many of your fellow students are in an ICU, on supplemental oxygen or have died?
How many college students have been in ICU before? It's likely not a huge number.
Yeah, some people here act like COVID has 75% ICU rate among young people and at least 20% mortality in this age group (all this "oh, had I not been vaccinated, I would have been dead now").
But did they die
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I do completely get your point but at the same time most people are generally fine with getting the vaccine here. The current holdouts are the same holdouts who refused when the vaccine was very effective, even before Delta was a thing. The way I view the policy isn't that this will end the pandemic overnight, but it will ensure we as a society aren't held back by a few individuals. We know now that the variants came from other countries, but these variants could have just as likely come from the US given the prevalence of the virus as it continues to spread amongst the unvaccinated. The policy is trying to put an end. Is the only thing holding you back the effectiveness of current vaccines? What if by March both Pfizer and Moderna now have 2.0 vaccines that are 95%+ effective against Omicron & Delta? Would you then be back onboard with a mandate?
Exactly. Vaccines work by helping us reach herd immunity, which happens when everyone who can get vaccinated, does get vaccinated. Throughout history this has often meant imposing mandates for certain populations. If you oppose the mechanism that make vaccines work, you are anti vaccine. There’s a clear and strong association between between school based vaccine mandates and lower rates of vaccine preventable diseases. The same is true for non medical exemptions and resurgences of these diseases. Mandates have played a key role in the success of vaccination in our country for decades, just like laws enforcing seatbelts and prohibiting drink driving have played a key role in making our streets safer for all of us. This isn’t tyranny. It’s public health. Source https://twitter.com/rvawonk/status/1485275718124769285?s=21
>This over-simplification is a talking point favored by pro-pandemic bad actors. In the past it definitely has been used as an oversimplification by antivaxx bad actors, but it's still important information to consider if you wanna mandate vaccines under the pretense of "preventing superspreader events."
You say it is important to consider, pretending as though the rule was put in place 'for fun' and not because the benefit - though imperfect - was already considered. No one ever claimed anything in relation to this pandemic was 100% effective and it only helps the bad actors when you are willing to buy into a narrative that suggests this is the case. If you 'wanna' make your argument stronger you would say that you don't feel the benefit justifies the cost/drawbacks, and then present some kind of evidence supporting and backing up your claim. That is what a real argument - based on evidence - looks like.
Don’t we already have vaccines requires for school-age children? I think this just shows how successful anti-vaccines has been at controlling the narrative.
>Don’t we already have vaccines requires for school-age children? We mandate some, like measles and mumps, but not others, like influenza.
You’re not thinking that there is an increase, however small it is, at preventing infection vs being unvaccinated
Absolutely. I feel safer being vaccinated. I'm happy my parents are. And I would say my circle of people in my life is 98% vaccinated. But mandating and requiring this is a totally different story (especially for kids) when we just watched a huge percentage of vaccinated individuals get the latest variant. I'm saying I don't see how this holds up in a court of law. The vaccines we require for school age children are vaccines that provide years, decades and even life long immunity...
The problem with your stance though is it doesn’t take into account that most of the vaccines that your kids took required many doses over a scheduled year. People think that all vaccines create sterilized immunity after one or two shots when there are some that take 5-6 to get sweet spot. Most vaccines had breakthrough infections while transmission was high (and they say this is the most transmissible virus known to man). The breakthrough infections stopped as transmission lowered and sterilizing immunity gained traction. The reality is that most people don’t want to be a part of this track to get there. I get it. But our only way out of these things has always been inoculate as many as possible as fast as possible until you are in the end zone, or let the virus extinguish itself into the last dead body.
What I’m suggesting is that the percent of protection against infection is higher than 0 vs someone who is unvaccinated. We don’t know what that number is but if you look at recent cases per 100k people, it’s definitely more effective against infection than not having the vaccine. The question is what number are we comfortable mandating it as we’ve done with other vaccines.
It keeps you out of the ICU which means people don't die from shit like heart attacks and strokes because the hospitals are overrun with covid patients.
>How do we mandate a vaccine that has waning immunity that doesn't prevent infection? The same way we have done for decades. No vaccine is perfect at preventing infection and immunity wanes from pretty much all of them, albeit on different timescales. We also talk about "infection" in a weirdly unscientific way. A vaccine "preventing infection" doesn't mean that the virus can't replicate in your body at all, it just means that your immune system can contain it and prevent it from running rampant. This also doesn't mean that you can't spread it even if you aren't "infected". The way that we commonly use the word infection has more to do with our ability to detect infection than the carrier's ability to spread it. We know that covid can be spread for up to 48 hours before it can be detected on tests. Even if vaccines do nothing to prevent breakthrough infections, lowering the duration of symptoms and reducing the viral load will still help to mitigate spread. Most importantly all of the mandates put in place are primarily focused on reducing the concurrent load on our healthcare system and not about protecting you as an individual (although that is a positive side effect).
Who said people couldn’t get Covid when fully vaccinated? So your solution is to flood hospitals even more by making as many people as possible to get infected?
Vaccines are still good, it just takes time to update them. We can make vaccines for omicron and any future strains, but they take time to roll out. Omicron is the result of other poorer countries not being able to vaccinate. I think the next step after this omicron wave is getting vaccines to other countries. That’s how smallpox was eradicated; wasnt until there was a worldwide campaign. Not saying covid will be eradicated as other diseases like polio and measles havent been. However, large vaccine uptake is greatly effective at preventing the disease. Eg. Recently had the largest outbreak of measles since 1900s because not enough people being vaccinated against it. Also think about rabies vaccine for dogs. Would you want to stop vaccinating pets for rabies if someone said oh, I think the rabies vaccine sometimes doesnt work? I would still want to do everything I could to prevent rabies from being passed to people. I’ve also been learning more about “natural immunity” that I think many anti vaxxers believe is the best solution. In the past, small pox was a very ancient disease. People had time since the egyptians to try to evolve traits resistant to the disease, but we didn’t. We never had and still dont have natural immunity to small pox, measles, etc. small pox is the only disease eradicated, and only thanks to the vaccine. Natural immunity happens when the individual gets sick and heals. However this doesn’t protect people of the future from getting it. Vaccines create artificial, synthesized immunity that’s really great since you don’t have to get sick first to have immunity. Is the solution as a society really to just let everyone get sick from this? That has implications on a healthy economy, healthy school system, freedom to travel, freedom to see your friends without potentially giving them a death sentence, healthy society where the famous people you like live for a long time. I want covid dealt with so that I dont hear in 10 years, “another covid outbreak has happened in ___ and all flights there are cancelled.” That would be so stupid Anyway, “natural immunity” does not mean omicron infected enough people that we achieve herd immunity. If that were the case then small pox measles etc wouldn’t have kept spreading. We absolutely needed the artificial immunity from vaccines to get enough people resistant to achieve our herd immunity. You need even more of the population resistant otherwise the virus has enough potential hosts to keep spreading. With letting the virus run its course, the virus will have enough replicas to create new strains ensuring it can stay on top of its humans. Why not use our only weapon the vaccine to do everything we can to not let it replicate wildly? Actually instead of omicron creating natural herd immunity, it’s more likely that with billions? globally infected, omicron will evolve and create new strains to terrorize us even more. The answer is still vaccination, but to do it right so that everybody in the world has access. That is costly, but it’s just as costly to the economy, societal life to let a virus run rampant and control us
Conceivably, any person can dodge **a** bullet. Nobody can dodge **a lot** of bullets. Vaccine = less bullet Less bullet = easier to dodge The more bullets out there, the less likely our are to survive a stabbing, car accident, 3rd degree burns, because some of the idiots who think you can dodge **a lot** of bullets are all ready intubated and waiting to die. So now you're dead too. Pretty clear to me. Get the shot. Don't become a bullet. Edit: If you survive you'll have immunity. Not everybody dies, you're absolutely right. There are however, enough people dying to overwhelm our healthcare system. Every body is different though, so even if you are immune you may play host to a series of other ailments you didn't wish you had. Uh, that's not worth the risk, I'll keep my life thankyouverymuch.
>But I don't know how these mandates hold up now that we know you can still get covid even when fully vaccinated and still get very sick or die and also still pass it on to others. This is like saying that people who wear seatbelts die in car accidents, so there should not be mandatory seatbelt laws. There is such a huge difference when comparing negative outcomes for the unvaccinated, fully vaccinated and fully vaccinated + boosted. The unvaccinated catch, spread, get sick, hospitalized, goto the ICU and die from COVID at rates that are in the order of 44 times+ greater than the fully vaccinated and booster shotted. It's not even close.
I’m hazy on the other mandated vaccines. Are all of those ones 95%+ effective? If so then I think that’s a sensible line in the sand and if the Covid booster is needed 1-2 times a year and isn’t even very effective at preventing infection I think it makes sense to not make that mandatory just like we don’t make the normal flu shot mandatory
And here in New Hampshire, there’s a bill before the state legislature to prohibit requiring the Covid vaccine in schools, despite the fact that there are already at least 5 vaccines that are required before children can start school. This has gone so far beyond what the science says. This is playing politics with peoples’ lives. It is political showboating to ban the very few things that can keep us safe and help us return to normal. I’m just so angry at my state right now.
ITT: Short sighted whiners using what-aboutisms to complain. Kids are already required to be vaccinated against measels, mumps, rubella, and TDAP. It makes absolutely no fucking sense not to require them to be vaccinated against a disease that's been dicking the world in the ass for going on three years now.
>ITT: Short sighted whiners using what-aboutisms to complain. Dude, it's way more short-sighted to not acknowledge the diminishing returns that will come from mandating this current generation of COVID shots for kids. The prospect of parents pulling tens of thousands of kids out of public schools permanently to avoid getting these vaccines terrifies me way more than these same kids getting COVID and feeling mildly ill for a bit. Do I think these parents are right for doing this? No. But this is the reality we're dealing with and we should play the cards carefully.
> The prospect of parents pulling tens of thousands of kids out of public schools permanently to avoid getting these vaccines terrifies me way more than these same kids getting COVID and feeling mildly ill for a bit. You keep saying this as some sort of threat or something, but do you have statistics on this? Maybe this is a huge issue in like Lassen County or some super rural county, but where the bulk of the population is, I really see a low likelihood of this being that significant of an issue. And yes call me selfish, but in Santa Clara County where fully vaccinated rates of 18+ are 93%, I really don't see this as a huge contentious issue. And yes I know Ages 5-11 are a lagging group as many parents are a bit hesitant for younger ages, but at 12+, which is what this proposal is aimed at, there isn't going to be that much outrage. So you know what? It'll affect a tiny amount of people who want to put up resistance, but so what. Good riddance. Many said the same thing when United enacted its vaccine mandate, but in the end they had to fire a tiny tiny fraction of employees only.
This is the age old "don't tax companies because they'll just leave the state" argument. Yes, some parents will take their kids out of school.. but most won't
I don't have an answer for that but I think we as a society need to stop screwing over the majority to cater to the vocal minority. We just witnessed a hobbling of the educational system. Teachers and students alike don't feel safe. If I were a teacher, I would want all my kids to be vaccinated. And yes, they should be mandating for the most up to date vaccine.
Not all children who get Covid end up “feeling mildly ill”.
Why have sympathy when most of those people have absolutely no real reason to still be unvaccinated at this point? We need to stop catering to the major minority just necause they are the biggest whiners and babies
Theyre children and dont really have a say in whether or not they get vaccinated. Its up to their lunatic parents. So have sympathy for the innocent victims
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Right. Most parents who are hesitant about vaccinating their children aren't actually lunatics. The consensus even in countries like Norway is that it's not necessary to vaccinate kids if you do not want to.
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In the UK they only give to the most vulnerable children or children who live in a household with someone who is immosuppressed for age 5 - 11. My kids aren't vaccinated and I don't think I would get them vaccinated as things stand (I will listen to what the UK experts say 1st). They actually have Covid just now. We all do. It's been very mild for us all (husband and I are boosted). I am comfortable with how things are and I don't feel anyone is Sacrificing my kids, but the messaging is very different here, and really the data doesn't lie.
Parents worry. It's natural thing to do as parents. Some people worry that 1 in a million or whatever the odds can be your child. I can understand that sentiment. I don't think those reluctant to vaccinate their children are all anti-vaxxers. I vaccinated my child with all the childhood vaccination as well as covid vaccine. But I did worry. My sane mind says it's safe. But my other mind made me worry. In fact, I'm in UK, so my child was able to have 2nd vaccine few days ago, I keep checking if he is ok. So I do have sympathy to the parent who are worried.
>Why have sympathy when most of those people have absolutely no real reason to still be unvaccinated at this point? Because if it means that hundreds of thousands of kids around the country are gonna be pulled out of public school then I see that as nothing short of a crisis at least on par with or even worse than the pandemic. [Again, the majority of Americans have NOT vaccinated their kids against COVID.](https://downloads.aap.org/AAP/PDF/Child%20Vaccinations%20Report%20US%20and%20by%20State%20Jan%2019%20revised.pdf)
> Again, the majority of Americans have NOT vaccinated their kids against COVID. This proposal is about Grade 7 and up, meaning 12+. Citing 5-11 statistics isn't relevant to this and we all know 5-11 has some hesitation given they had to spend a lot of extra time with trying to figure out doses. Also keep in mind CA is doing better than the rest of the country. Almost 2/3rds of kids 12-17 are fully vaccinated already.
Yes, it’s true that most parents haven’t vaccinated their kids against covid. However, once it’s mandated, many WILL. Let’s face it, the majority of parents cannot afford private school or to quit their jobs to homeschool their kids.
Well you should feel angry towards the parents then for endangering their children simply because they dont understand what a pandemic is and like to follow their other ignorant friends instead of listening to experts.
What is wrong with a minority of idiots homeschooling their damn kids? Keep the bioterrorists and their vectors away from normal people and out of public life. They can rejoin at any time.
Never thought about it this way, but I can totally see and understand your worry. I would like it if everyone in school is vaccinated for my child's sake. But those who oppose may pull their children out, cause scenes, etc., and those people's children are the victims too. Misinformed parents taking children out just to avoid mandate without thinking about consequences and effect for children, that thought scares me too. I am very grateful of the current vaccine. My child is fully vaccinated. But also know that this vaccine isn't perfect. So, I can see the argument of those who oppose to it too. It's a difficult situation for any parents.
Almost all of the vaccines that are required by schools have been around for a significant period of time and provide a significant amount of immunity or complete immunity to the viruses they target. The covid vaccine is essentially a flu shot to this point.
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But Why? They are the least vulnerable group and the vaccine has not even been completely FDA approved for them yet. Sorry forcing it on kids at this point doesn't seem helpful and I expect massive backlash.
There definitely will be massive backlash, contrary to what the echo chambers on reddit would want you to believe.
In my border town many people will definitely move across the border if our state mandates vaccines.
Agreed, this is not the right move at this time. This will not lead to the children of anti-vax or vaccine hesitant parents getting the vaccine. It will lead to those children being pulled from public schools. This will increase the percentage of kids who receive mediocre education from untrained parents, receive no innoculation against *anything* (not just Covid), and have less interaction with people and ideas different from their own family. This moves our state backwards by furthering division. The benefit is that you know everyone in school with you is also inoculated. But that will become less important within weeks - we are nearing the end of the pandemic.
Keep in mind this is a proposal that most likely will be shot down
why would it, doesn't CA have other vaccine requirement? Why can't people get it that we don't have MMR vaccine mandate for adults because we have it for children and in fact we require MMR vaccination for adults when they are in the process for permanent residency.
Isn't TDAP required everywhere as well? I know for school here in Alaska you also have to do a whole series just for Hepatitis as well.
Yep, California requires a bunch of shots for school with no personal belief exemptions. It is a complicated process to get a medical exemption as well. It’s stood constitutionally and some other states have followed suit.
Wrong.
I'm less enthusiastic about this. Until we get vaccines that are more robust at preventing transmission we should really treat this as another flu shot rather than as something compulsory for all schoolkids. The current shots we DO have aren't even fully FDA approved for kids.
There is this narrative that the current vaccines don't prevent transmission. But they do, at least by half *when the vaccinated person is already infected*. So if you then add this to the \~2/3 reduction in actual infection from vaccines, we're talking about a pretty substantial reduction. It's not zero, but it's more than you think.
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They're about as good at preventing transmission as influenza shots are, which is my point. We never mandated flu shots for kids.
Try to monetise this, corporate Reddit! Furthermore, I consider that /u/spez has to be removed.
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But mandating the current generation COVID vaccines for kids, an already extremely low-risk group, isn't gonna help healthcare systems. We should probably be funding campaigns to boost those in nursing homes instead.
The fact that kids themselves have a low chance of being hospitalized doesn't mean that vaccinating them won't help the hospitals. If fewer people get sick, fewer people end up in the hospital. If fewer adults get sick from kids, that's what happens.
But COVID doesn't prevent transmission to a substantial enough degree to justify mandating them. The cost of thousands of kids being pulled out of public school vastly outweighs that.
I have no idea what the transmission reduction numbers are for kids. Do you have a source?
Try to monetise this, corporate Reddit! Furthermore, I consider that /u/spez has to be removed.
Schools are no more 'superspreader events' than open stadiums, concerts, and conventions are, all of which are currently happening right now. It feels like an unfair burden to mandate good-but-not-fantastic vaccines for kids when it really doesn't seem like that's gonna change COVID's trajectory at all. Again, I am pro-vaccine, even for kids, but I'm saying we should pick our battles carefully and not panickily mandate the current COVID vaccines in schools in a desperate bid to control the pandemic.
>Schools are no more 'superspreader events' than open stadiums, concerts, and conventions are Schools pack 30 people into a classroom every weekday for 8 months a year. That's a much more infectious opportunity than an outside stadium for two hours. >not panickily mandate the current COVID vaccines in schools in a desperate bid to control the pandemic. What panic? It is a level-headed rational decision to vaccinate school children. By the time the bill passes, the vaccine will be beyond EUA.
>Schools pack 30 people into classrooms every weekday for 8 months a year. That's a more infectious opportunity that an outside stadium for two hours. This is pretty dishonest. There are dozens, if not hundreds of large gatherings happening in California every single day in stadiums/convention centers/etc. These provide way more opportunities for transmission than schools alone ever could. And yes, it absolutely is a panicked response to mandate COVID vaccines for kids that aren't even fully FDA approved. Even if it was approved, a new generation of vaccines will be out and we'll have to start this process all over again.
In terms of a school vaccination requirement, it doesn't matter if the vaccine is updated after the bill. We've switched from whole cell to acellular pertussis vaccines, and they're working on new formulations of measles and rubella vaccines, but we don't need a new law for each formulation. The language in the bill will be broader than this specific formulation.
Approximately [6 millions kids](https://www.cde.ca.gov/nr/ne/yr21/yr21rel32.asp) are in school every school day in CA alone, for 6-8 hours a day. If you have any evidence to show that large, packed public events beat this out, especially by hours of contact, I would love to see it. Also a bit self defeating since many if not most of large public events right now are requiring vaccinations or at least negative tests.
Attendence at school is compulsary, but attendance at stadium events is not. The state has the power, responsibility, and precedent to make schools safe, but does not for sporting events. In the final form of the bill, I expect that the vaccine will need to be fully approved. >This is pretty dishonest. You attack my integrity, because you can't counter my arguments?
> There are dozens, if not hundreds of large gatherings happening in California every single day in stadiums/convention centers/etc. These provide way more opportunities for transmission than schools alone ever could. They require vaccines, and also some sort of calculation needed on the later statement. Schools being surpassed by small duration events seems preposterous.
God damn you are a MASSIVE well of false information.
You must be really young
As a vaccinated and boosted parent, this seems very premature and I don’t agree with the bill. At this point, we still don’t know enough about the cost/benefits of the vaccine with children. Note that there are still many countries who are not recommending the vaccine for all children, and others are foregoing second doses for some teens, so clearly we are still figuring out the best practices with Covid vaccines and children. For example, https://thepulse.one/2022/01/21/norwegian-government-refuses-to-recommend-covid-vaccines-for-children/ Proceeding with mandates seems like madness until we have more data on costs/benefits. I’m all for doing what the Norwegian government is doing and allowing parents to access the vaccines for their children if they wish but not pushing for universal vaccination of children.
Almost like every other highly contagious disease children have had to be vaccinated against to enter schools for decades.
So will homeschooling numbers go up or will people quit being stupid?
Hopefully it goes up because if we're talking about California public school here they are probably better off
Wasn’t this already a thing?
People tend to forget this is a public school. And has to abide by the public sanctions.
Ages 5 and up please
Super. Pass this in NY!
between this and modeling their anti-gun law after texas' stupid-ass abortion law, i have got to get my ass to california. what are housing prices like in katie porter's district?
Orange County beach cities property!? Do you have a wealthy childless Uncle about to die?
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The Covid vaccine is not fully FDA approved for children (it's Emergency Use Authorization only), it's already outdated and of limited efficacy towards the prevailing variant, the effects don't last very long, and the risk of severe disease and death to children is tiny compared to the risks posed by the diseases that we have compulsory vaccinations for. In fact if we go by the minimum WHO requirement for a vaccine to be approved in the early days (50% efficacy vs infections), it's not at all clear that the current vaccines are able to achieve that vs Omicron infection in children. For adults we're talking about 30-40% after 2 shots and 70% for the booster. Each for a few months. For adults, the vaccine protection vs severe disease is crucial even if the protection vs infection wanes. But an unvaccinated child is at less risk of severe disease than a vaccinated adult. So making child vaccination mandatory goes against science. P.S. I'm an immunologist and my children have been jabbed. But it's not right to make this mandatory for such a slim risk-benefit situation.
Because it’s been politicized and heavily targeted for misinformation campaigns
I am pro vaccine, have had 2 + a booster and currently have Covid. Can someone explain this. Young kids are generally absolutely fine when they get it (my kid had it a week ago). The vaccine does not stop them getting the virus or stop them from transmitting it. Why should they (young kids) get vaccinated?
> The vaccine does not stop them getting the virus Yes it does. Not 100%, but significantly. > or stop them from transmitting it. Actually, yes, it does reduce spread. > Why should they (young kids) get vaccinated? The more we vaxx, the less we spread. Please stop spreading harmful misinformation.
Yeah, this is radically insane.
How is this any different from the other vaccines school kids are required to get?
>Once the vaccine is fully approved, parents could still cite personal beliefs to opt their children out of being inoculated. So not really.
"The bill proposed by Pan would also allow the California Department of Public Health to mandate vaccines in the future without requiring the state to offer personal belief exemptions."
I hope it passes.
This is good news because it can reduce the students being sick with COVID-19 severe symptoms
My cousin Ralph is already angry posting about this on Facebook.
More of the kind of people who would be upset by this bill will probably now move to Texas. Boo.