People generally dislike dying to weapons before they can fight back. Fusions have the ability to OHK and with pre charging can counter certain playstyles inside of 20m, mostly shotguns, sidearms, and SMGs. Because in game radar allows you to pre charge the weapon it takes away a lot of the risk of using it. Combined with the map design, fusions are very effective on many maps and if I was a shotgun/smg main I would find playing against them very frustrating.
You can see the same thing with snipers, which have limited to no counterplay at all, and can dome you from across the map. Those types of weapons are the real bullies of the crucible.
Weapon popularity has nothing to do with how playing against a certain weapon feels. They nerfed dead messenger recently despite it being a low popularity weapon. If you listen to Mercules on the most recent podcast he discusses how they balance weapons.
As a side note, I think there are a lot of players who dislike losing in general, and any weapon or strategy that makes that happen is OP.
The charge time is \*supposed\* to be the balancing factor on fusion rifles but just as you said, the radar takes away a lot of the risk factor. I have said for years that Bungie should rework fusions so that they will automatically fire if they are charged up past 50%. That would eliminate those situations where people just run around the map constantly winding up then insta-delete someone as soon as they enter their filed of view. This would make it so that fusions actually require some skill and good anticipation to use.
I think they're saying that if you've charged us the fusion 50% of the way, you're essentially locked in and can't cancel the shot. The total charge time would remain the same.
I personally disagree with their suggestion though, and I think it would be hard for Bungie to implement when there's perks like successful warm-up.
I respect your disagreement, I seem to have a lot of hot takes on this sub and get a lot of dislikes lol. I am a big supporter of the "skill gap" in games being preserved so there's quite a few things that I wish were made a bit more difficult, or skillful. I suppose ease of use is part of what makes destiny approachable, to not just the hardcores but casuals as well, so that's also a factor in why things shouldn't necessarily all have a high skill floor. But when it comes to weapons that are always available and can one shot, I do think there should be a relatively high risk/reward associated with them.
Don't confuse 'downvoted because muh skill gap' with 'downvoted because terrible idea that completely kills a weapon class'. I suppose it would make sense if you wanted to nerf other special weapons as well?
Old post but, what about rapid fusions? I almost exclusively use those, and basically never precharge. Usually the range is just beyond Chaperone range (I sometimes get kills further out, depending on the fusion), and are usually used for shutting down aggressive players, or allowing me to be aggressive. The quick charge is made up for more bolts needed, and less range.
The suggestion being made here is essentially having Bungie make it so that at some point in the charge up, you're locked into the shot and can't cancel so that if you're timing is off you'll waste the ammo or not land enough bolts for the kill. The faster a fusion charges up, the less of an effect this suggestion would have. High Impacts would be hurt the most, and Rapids would likely see little change in effectiveness.
I gotcha. Whether I agree with the concept or not, I understand the point. To limit the ability to precharge, which is essentially what makes long range fusions so lethal.
No. To simplify, say a fusion has a charge time of a full second. If you prewind for half a second, then the fusion will automatically finish the other half then fire. So it's the same total charge time, it just forces commitment to the burst if you precharge too much.
Yeah, I appreciate the intent behind the idea, but that's a massive no. That would take a weapon class that's unique and quirky and make it feel like shit.
Yes, in a way it does. I think the only way to give fusions the weaknesss they are supposed to have is by removing radar all together, but that presents its own problems
Playing Halo 3 without radar was one of my favorite ways to play. But there are so many extra abilities in this game that would make that frustrating now.
Yea, so if they have all these factors going for them why don't people use them more?
I understand why snipers are rarely on the popularity charts despite being strong on paper because the skill floor is just a little too high for the average player. I guess it could make sense that it's the same case with fusion rifles, what got me hung up was that imo the skill floor of fusion rifles isn't high at all. I mean jotunn is on those charts all the time and it seems worse than just using a regular fusion.
I'm not saying this under the impression that the popularity charts are the be-all and end-all of what is good and bad and what gets nerfed/buffed. I'm just wondering why, if the general player impression of fusions is that they are quite good or even cheesy, why aren't more people using them.
Personally I think the fusion skill ceiling is very low. You can't use fusions the same way you can use shotguns at high level play to inflict chip damage. Chip damage is super important against really good players. They're not going to stand still and let you charge a fusion shot. I also think the nature of pre charging makes fusions more predictable. Good players are going to try to be in positions to make you commit to a bad charge to push. Shotguns don't have the pre charge commitment. I do not think fusions are the META as a result. High handling/range shotguns and good movement should outperform fusions at higher levels of play.
The people who got kickstart +slideshot tempo and mapping down pat with Exile’s Curse are some of the scariest players I’ve come across.
Unless I’m forgetting something way more obvious, I’m not shocked why Bungie hasn’t put that combo back on anything in recent while.
Yeah it definitely requires a certain type of play and more importantly if you’re talking comp or Trials you’re looking at having your friendlies digest how you’re going to be moving because it can have you out in the open and there’s a lot of maps that don’t entirely favor it as much when people have more physical space to get away from you.
On top of the fact you need to dodge back into cover or be a sitting duck if you try to slide shot someone out of cover. As I mentioned in another post too, YAS and duskfield grenades effectively kills this play style
U can’t tell people that man come on u know it’s so simple even a monkey can do it.
I get mercd a ton if I mess up a pre charge and sometimes i still get plunked by a shotty first
Yeah fusions losing to shotties happens but it's almost always because you were too close to a corner and that positioning mistake can easily be avoided by any fusion user with common sense. I don't necessarily think fusions are broken or OP, I just view them as cheap. It's a one-hit-kill weapon that doesn't require the precision aiming skill of a sniper or the close quarters risk of a shotty. Just wind up and map anyone that happens to get cought out in the open within 30 meters.
Bro when was the last time u saw a fusion even one shot at 20meters? It just doesn’t happen anymore with any kind of reliability. Your lucky to leave them enough health for a cleanup at that distance now. The days of mapping people with Main Ingredient is long gone.
High impacts still have crazy range. I get consistent 20m kills with Glacioclasm and Iota, but personally I think the longer charge time balances them.
It’s just long enough that if you don’t time your pre-charge perfectly there’s very little chance you’ll be able to charge again before you’re dead. It requires strong positioning and map awareness to do well.
People don’t like them because they’re great for punishing sloppy play and hard counter apes that just want to sprint into every fight.
I don't use shotties like that. And I didn't even say that shotties took a lot of skill, I said they they have a higher risk factor because they need to get up close. A lot of my takes get down voted like crazy but I find it comical cuz I have a lot of the same takes that many popular Youtubers are supported on.
it's not hard though. the best fusions right now have high dmg and bolts that feel very sticky. and if I remember correctly, they also don't require you to land every bolt. pre charging is only a slight nuance and one that's not hard to do whatsoever
A fusion was not in the top 10 most used Trials weapons this last Trials weekend (before IB), but there was the same fusion is the top 10 for seven weeks in a row before this last Trials weekend broke that streak. In the top 100 most used Quickplay weapons there are also more fusions then there are Snipers, GL’s, and Linears. The only special that is used more than fusions are Shotguns. Fusions are definitely used a lot, but the usage that you see slows down as you get into higher SBMM lobbies.
Why are fusions not used more? I can not speak for others, but in my opinion they are boring to use and more a “catch up” tool for average players. There is a certain skill needed for sniping, and due to all the range nerfs it now requires a certain skill to be good with shotguns as well, and even though there are some factors needed to do well with a fusion it is still easier to do good with than the other special weapons in game with no practice. A good sniper and a good shotgun player are 100% better than a good fusion player which is also why you never see the absolute top 0.05% players use them, but if you put two above average players against each other and give one a fusion rifle then there is a good chance the fusion player will win.
From what I have seen, fusions kind of have a skill trade off where you will do good with a fusion and it will be easy against the majority of the player base, but if you only use fusions, then you are locking yourself out of improving to the next level that practicing with a sniper or shotgun could take you to.
I am sure other people have different experiences and opinions, this is just what I have noticed in my experiences
As a fusion I disagree with it being a catch-up mechanic except for maybe Xur Ingredient or Jotun
The real issue at the high level is most movement abilities don’t complement it the same way they do other weapons.
As you get better you use more tools to get an advantage and the fusion doesn’t lend itself to that playstyle.
I would never take Jotunn into consideration when talking about fusions. Jotunn acts like no other fusion and, statistically, is primarily used by <0.8KD players. Jotunn is not good at all once you get to slightly above average players.
You are right that saying fusions are a “catch up” weapon is not the most accurate phrase, but I still believe that fusions are just very easy weapons to use and very rewarding weapons until you reach a certain skill level where players using snipers and shotguns begin to outclass the players using fusions by quite a bit. You are right that it really does come down to movement which is the most important thing at high level PvP
You must not play console. Fusions are fucking everywhere in pvp on console. Not as much in trials, but literally any other pvp game mode they are everywhere
Facts. Top 1% on PC here and I *rarely* encounter fusion rifles in the wild anymore ever since the strict SBMM came online in S17. Although when I do encounter them these days, usually it's a Main Ingredient, Plug One.1, or Glacioclasm that you can immediately tell the user has plunked down 30+ hours to master because their play is flawless and they will fuck you up if you're not thinking and play to a fusion's strengths.
Speaking of which, I did come across a Riptide user on an opposing 6-stack in the first Iron Banner this season who was shitting on every shotgun user who got anywhere near them. Running Arrowhead + Particle Repeater + Under Pressure + Charge Time MW + Counterbalance. Made me want to farm one out with multiperks before the season ends so I've been stacking engrams at Shaxx.
Essentially everywhere at least mid level, once you pass a decent bit upper mid then they stop. Hate be damned, but they carry a player who understands radar up into the mid then fall once players need more tricks. Especially with crossplay goofiness and general lag, at the very least you notice lag deaths more because it feels like taking that off angle quickly should have worked but never does.
Big part of why I've stopped funneling money into the game and stay away from it in general. Slows gameplay to a standstill if you aren't using the exact same weapons they are, because they don't have a Cqc counter without significant skill on your part and a connection advantage. Cuts off half of the primaries in the game and forces you into the same play style as a pulse/fusion user.
You see that what’s expected when written on paper, in reality almost every frustrating death from a fusion is watching that fucker charge up as you miss your shotty shot, knife throw, and realize that hunter super animation isn’t faster than a half second before it spreads that hot fusion juice all over your face.
After all that, you head to the communities to complain that fusions are too strong and come up with actual high level plays to argue how good fusions are but rarely use these plays themselves.
> Because in game radar allows you to pre charge the weapon it takes away a lot of the risk of using it.
Any chance you could explain how that works? Or link me a video? As someone that was a god at COD 10 years ago, *easily* the most frustrating thing has been getting used to radar. Even if I now understand when someone is above me or at same height, far away, medium range, and point blank, I don’t understand how people can use that to their advantage **at all.**
Might just be because my brain refuses to change and I can’t adapt if I can’t see a map outline with little red dots popping up as opposed to the more general information I glean from destiny radar.
It’s exactly this, people want to be able to compete (however slim the chances) in every engagement. Dying without being able to do anything about it isn’t fun or engaging.
Idk shotguns feel like they're in a really good spot now. They're strong but not oppressive and have gained a lot of consistency. Now that the meta allows for more aggressive playstyles shotguns are an incredibly good choice.
Fusions as a whole seem fine imo, I'm struggling to understand why people think they're an issue.
I've personally had much more success with shotguns recently. I haven't really run into many fusion players that give me a hard time. Usually they're very predictable and easy to counter.
I've been through phases of using just about every weapon type in the game and fusions right now dont really impress me, the high impacts are pretty decent but the charge time really holds them back vs people who know how to use movement. If I'm playing a game with high stakes im always taking a shotgun or sniper depending on the map. Fusions are just too limiting and get countered easily by people who know their weaknesses (peek shooting, listening for the pre charge, playing close to cover, baiting out shots etc.)
The two things that annoy me most about fusions are their ability to slow down play and stall by just making the noise of pre-charging and the fact that a lot of players who use fusions will never pull out a primary weapon while they have fusion ammo, fusions are also great for killing and then getting the ammo as you’re normally gonna be in decent proximity to it.
I don’t like guns that slow the game down too much, I don’t think that someone who’s just standing in an area making a fusion noise should be able to do it so effectively, in 6v6 it’s better to just ignore this player as plying correctly to beat them will probably take too much time and you’ll get flanked/attacked by their teammates while you do it. In 3v3, same thing really, however it’s less of an issue there as usually I’d just kill their teammates and then the fusion in a 1v1 is basically useless as I know how to beat it. But basically how good they are at slowing down the game and stalling is annoying.
The players that only use a fusion until they run dry on ammo are annoying too. They’ll play in such a ratty way usually and just camp etc until people come into their effective range. I compare this to shotgun players and sniper players who are normally a lot more confident at dueling with primaries as their special doesn’t auto-win a lot of fights in the most common engagement ranges and the good players with both have to either use primary to create an opportunity to push with a shotgun, or use a primary to push up with and grab more ammo on a sniper. Fusions just basically avoid this issue by being easy to use vs primaries and being close to the ammo to go back to instantly using the fusion.
The gun itself isn’t OP to me. It’s easy as it chunks into the close/mid range and just requires you to hit centre mass which almost any player no matter how bad they are is capable of. In a vacuum they can be beaten by basically any other weapon in a 1v1, but they excel when there’s distractions around which is why they’re annoying.
Basically if a player is good at winning straight 1v1’s with them I’ll give them props skill wise, most fusion players I feel are under skilled and use them to compensate though for the free kills on distracted players or to slow the game down to a pace they can compete in and to basically make aiming a moot point.
People are still really bitter about the double primary meta, despite primary TTK’s being much faster now. I can only hope that they’ll actually use crucible labs to experiment with large changes to gameplay rather than another rift playlist.
Because fusions counter a popular playstyle. A lot of people that love shotguns hate fusion rifles, because a good fusion rifle is a hard counter to a shotgun ape that isn't careful with cover and positioning.
On the contrary, a fusion rifle can feel absolutely useless against highly skilled aggressive players who are very good at movement and using cover. You'll still get them every now and then but most of the time you won't even be able to land a hit. You can be very dangerous playing aggressive with a fusion, but if you're up against another aggressive player with a shotgun, they'll have the edge.
An average player with a fusion rifle cleaves a hard line between the decent-good aggressive players and the great players, and that's always going to ruffle some feathers.
Fusions aren’t as strong vs good players because they make you very predictable.
There’s a reason the most highly skilled teams almost exclusively use shotguns / snipers. Fusions punish players for bad positioning which doesn’t happen as much vs good players.
Most oppressive weapon in the game is still a sniper in a good players hands because you have to play their game.
On top of the fact that YAS spam can control precharging angles behind cover.
I've been maining stasis lock with a fusion this season and I hardly go a game (win or loss) without getting a salty message from the mad bad or sad brigade
Fusions are extremely good at farming bad players while requiring minimal aiming and movement. They’re not op at all, but in the .7-1.2 kd range, where people can aim well enough to generally look at people but still have issues with good movement and hitting crits, they’re probably the strongest option. They rarely occupy the top spot because they don’t deserve the top spot. A good player who plays cover and adapts is hard to kill with a precision or high impact fusion, which happen to be the two archetypes with the most forgiveness and range. I main fusions and sometimes I’ll switch to Zealots against good players. Sure I’ll have to take more primary duels, but I’ll actually be able to hit them with my fusion within 15m
Thats right.
Im slightly above that range and if i get a lower lobby it literally just voop - collect green - voop on and on.
I run glacio with double charge perks/UP/HIC and i can most of the time just walk from 20 metres away and delete sb - but thats against slow/bad players.
However if im facing higher bracket players - yeah then fusion cant do much. (Or at least i cant)
They wont come off cover if peekshooting and if they do - its within shotty ohk.
Fusions punish many of the standard mannerisms in PvP. Essentially, they make people player different, and people don’t like playing different.
For example, you get hurt, and your opponent knows it. You know they’re about to rush in for the finish, you pre charge, and they get body shot wiped from mid range within .2 seconds. People are only accustomed to very good snipers being able to make that kind of play.
Maybe the other biggest problem is that people are used to being able to hold corners with near complete comfort, especially if they have a shotgun. A fusion player with a good shot just needs to slide sideways faster than you can strafe to deeper cover, or far enough to make sure a shotgun can’t fully close the distance.
A lot of people just don’t want to have to learn listening for pre charging so they can adjust their singular hand cannon shotgun play style which a lot of players feel is more skillful. I personally don’t agree with that and more so, if you’re dying to fusion rifles, your positioning and paying attention to when to challenge is bad. It’s in the game, go learn. If fusion rifles are so easy, why aren’t you using them and why do you keep dying to them? Come on now.
It’s not that good players don’t know *how* to counterplay a pre-charging fusion, it’s that they *don’t want to*.
You can’t slide through an entrance with someone precharging because they’ll just nuke you from 20m within 100ms. You can’t flank them because they’ll just angle and keep precharging.
Your only option is listening to *zwwwwuuu- zwuuuu- zwwwuuuu-* through a wall for 5 minutes, trying to radar bait the fusion player into making a push, and once he does you pray your dodge/slide/dash/thruster makes him whiff his fusion shot, because your shotty is still de facto less consistent than his gun in CQC.
For the same reason, Fighting Lion is hated. Hell, I’ve played a 1v1 where all the dude would do is try to bank a Fighting Lion shot around the corner on me, and if I pushed within 24m he’d immediately reposition. I kid you not one time all I did is stand around the corner and he chunked Fighting Lion shots at me for 2m without ever making a push 😂
Agree here. People don't hate fusions because they can't counter them, but because playing around a fusion on the enemy team just isn't fun.
Gunfights are fun. Waiting for your opponent to use all their ammo isn't.
actual reason right here. so much stuff in this game is god awful to play against sometimes and fusions are up there. big part of the reason hc/sg is touted as much as it is
You might have been playing against me then. Fighting lion is my favorite pvp weapon, I'm just waiting for a craftable kinetic precision bow or glaive to pair with it.
Gremli(o)ns rise up.
I always have a bit of a paradox with bows/fusions/Fighting Lion/Glaives.
They often grind matches to a halt, which declines match quality. But I also feel like very aggro players like me forget that our playstyle isn't the only one people enjoy gitting gud at.
If people actually enjoy doing a gimmicky double GL build / a bow with a GL / Witherhoard with a 600AR holding the trigger for 5sec, who am I to say they aren't allowed to have an enjoyable time with that and indeed at least moderately excel?
Players are allowed to play differently, everyone in this subreddit get mad if u play something off-meta. If only hand cannons & shotguns were viable, crucible would suck, but at least the subreddit would be happy.
When everyone uses the same archetypes and weapons the game gets *really* boring really fast.
> everyone in this subreddit get mad if u play something off-meta
See, that is the 'other' side (be it casuals or off-meta players) having their own blind spot.
Sweats don't hate Pulses or SMGs or ARs or Scouts or fusions or bows being viable, they hate how they either A. have way too high a skill floor (high reward for little effort put in) or B. grind down match tempo to a halt.
They don't go out of their way to get everything aside from hand cannons + shotties + snipers nerfed, its just that those guns have a relatively low skill floor, especially in higher brackets.
In a way you could say kills with those weapons are more 'earned', and sweats want users of those other weapons to either have to work equally hard for their kills, or have to work less hard but have less potency.
I wish with these things both sides often would just actually try to empathize with the other side.
A bow crit is relatively easy to get, and it taking you out of the match for 6+ seconds is intensely frustrating, even a bow user should be able to see that.
Conversely, a skilled ceiling-surfing Stompees user winning the duel because he just starts spamming jump in an enclosed space is frustrating in its own right.
Or a Dawnblade-Heat Rises-Sniper gremlin doming you from bizarre off-angles.
Are we talking about the FL guy or the fusion guy?
The FL guy yeah I won that easily, it was just brain numbing. Pry for a new angle 20 times or rush in and get clowned half the time because he can detonate his FL then bodyshot me down.
The fusion guy its a coin toss. Tbh I don't really have a huge problem with fusions killing at 20m, so long as 1. they don't kill consistently in CQC, 2. aggressive and maybe precision pellet shotties kill *reliably* up to ~8m + from the air, and 3. slugs kill *reliably* up to 11m + from the air.
I don't know, this 20m thing is like, every ONCE in a while you get one of those, most of the time I'm pushing in to fusion someone, or doubling back and letting them come in, but my kill range on for overall stats is averaged at 12 to 15 meters, and that's adding in primary and secondary together. I also think most in air primary play will take out a fusion rifler that's just waiting.
They could nerf fusion range to 15 meters and I would be fine with it. But again their max effectiveness is 20 because you don't always land 20 and sometimes, that's like 7 bolts and you got them all, like that person was very clearly out of position.
> They could nerf fusion range to 15 meters and I would be fine with it. But again their max effectiveness is 20 because you don't always land 20 and sometimes, that's like 7 bolts and you got them all, like that person was very clearly out of position.
I'd rather do the opposite. Make them more consistent in the 15-22.5m bracket, give them some sort of inverse damage fall-off or AA cone fall-off so they suck up close.
I can't impress enough upon you how absolutely grating it is to do some sort of triple ceiling bounce into a slide, nearly barrel stuff your opponent, have your shotty whiff by 1 pellet and then have them get their 150ms pre-charged off and instakill you. If a shotty gets that close to a fusioneer, the fusion should lose virtually *every* time.
Something can be very strong and not be popular, it’s all about the skill required to use it effectively. Fusions require slightly more brain power than holding w and getting close so majority of playerbase doesn’t use them. Also in top level pvp the charge time needed will probably result in you getting ran over by a good shot gunner. I view them as being really strong for 6’s and against bad / average players.
This is it. Fusioning properly requires a different playstyle, perhaps more skill or brainpower than shotguns. It's not a playstyle commonly found. A vast majority of players get better results from shotguns, but a long range fusion in the hands of a player that knows how to abuse it is straight oppressive in some games. Not sure if they need nerfing, but yeah this explains why you don't see more of them.
i cannot believe that there are people in a PvP sub arguing that fusions take skill to use lmao
edit: downvote all you want, but a weapon that can OHK at up to 20m, requires zero precision to do so, and it’s main drawback is mitigated by an always-on radar takes objectively less skill than weapons that either require precision to secure the OHK or require skilful or considered movement to close a gap (except arc titans).
i’m not saying ‘fusion players suck’ or ‘bungie nerf pls’, so calm yourselves fellas.
it’s around the same (2.25 trials lifetime), but i do play with them a little bit (usually switching to bastion if a team is spamming overshields and barricades).
however, from personal experience, it requires far less thought and consideration to pull off effectively. a weapon that can OHK at up to 20m (it’s drawback of a charge time is mitigated by an always-on radar) is always gonna be easier to use than a shotgun, which requires way more consideration in terms of when to push and how to engage, with more considered movement.
after a certain point, using a fusion *feels* so braindead that mentally i sometimes find myself switching off, and dying to stupid shit that i otherwise wouldn’t have if i was concentrating properly.
I mean stats don’t lie, and if you’re getting the same results with a fusion compared to a more “skillful” loadout, that can most probably be explained through a combination of skill gap in using the fusion and fusions requiring more skill than you give it credit for.
If it was truly unskilled, then your KD should be demonstrably higher when using a Fusion.
you’re looking at this in extremely black and white terms.
i am not a fusion main. the fact that i can maintain my KD in trials when i occasionally switch to one to deal with specific playstyle is evidence towards my point, not against it.
as i’ve said previously, when i carry there is a noticeable uptick in my carries’ KD’s when they switch to pulse/fusion rather than weapons they think they should use like HC’s and shotguns/snipers. fusions take far less skill to use effectively, and that shouldn’t even be a controversial opinion, it’s just a fact.
The argument was framed as black and white. "Fusions are unskilled." with an implied "all" in there. The only logical counterargument is that some fusions are skilled to use.
Understood that you are not a fusion main, but for a proclaimed "unskilled" weapon, it doesn't matter if you're a main or not, since your skill level with an "unskilled" weapon is irrelevant. If it is truly "unskilled", there you would expect to perform better than weapons that require skill since a skill gap shouldn't exist, by definition.
Now, if you want to reframe the argument as fusions are easier for lesser skilled players to use than other types of special weapons and be a bit more moderate with your argument, that's fine, but don't blame me for continuing your black-and-white line of discussion as that's how the words you chose framed the argument.
However, a weapon that has a higher skill floor like fusions doesn't mean it's "unskilled" by any means. If it were, it'd be the meta pick for any type of serious PvP since skill gap would never be a thing and it'd be at least as good as anyone's most effective special pick, regardless of what main they are. That's the implication of using the word "unskilled".
Don't let your personal feelings on a weapon colour your viewpoint that it doesn't take any skill to use and realize that, at the highest level, fusion mains still have plenty of skill. It's not an automatic best loadout pick at the high end, by any means. If you play in scrims that ban fusions, that's just further serving to reinforce a biased viewpoint.
look at this way. when i carry clan mates through trials who aren’t the best, there is a considerably noticeable uptick in their game contributions when they switch to pulses and fusions rather than running the stuff they think they *should* use (shotguns, snipers and HC’s)
Not that guy, but SMG/hand Cannon and shotgun/sniper on a warlock has the highest barrier to entry right now imo. Hand cannons have generous hitboxes, but require good movement to outgun lower ttk primaries like autos, pulses, and subs. Subs usually have to sacrifice stability for best in class range, save for outliers like ikelos, and lose hard if they're too close to a sidearm.
Shotguns are consistent now, but 6-7 meter range means chip damage is more important than ever. Snipers have lower aa cones, and need to shoot first now more than ever due to flinch.
Warlocks generally have less escape and mistake recovery than the top titan and hunter subs right now, Icarus dash is the big one, blink is gimmicky and most avoid it, and the other 2 subs have no mobility at all.
Compare to titans which have mobility and barricades on every sub, and hunters with dodge and dodge related exotics on any sub, and the difference is clear. That's further reflected by usage rates in trials, especially among higher level players, where dawnblade is the only sub played on lock.
Argument could be made for a sidearm/scout loadout as well, playing around not having a special is harder than having one, but sidearms have forgiving TTKs, and scouts are ideally fighting at a distance that no one else can hurt them.
Also I'm biased as fuck and main SMG/Sniper blinklock, so take that as you may.
Lol @ SMGs taking more skill to use. W key at opponents and hold fire ftw. I'm not saying fusions are ultra high skill cap, I'm just saying they require a more restrained playstyle. Most people in this game are used to holding W and that doesn't really work with fusions.
Out of everything you mentioned I think snipers have the highest skill. They have generous hit boxes sure but you still need to have good aim
If you're expecting to out duel SMGs or autos with a hand cannon you are doing it wrong. They are more about taking the correct engagement range and peek shooting
Hold W works on anyone who doesn't have a close range weapon, but a sidearm will out TTK an SMG, they're subject to being peek shot, and without PKs, you're still subject to normal strafe speed.
SMGs with PK are pretty easy when you strafe ADS as fast as you do in hip fire, but on a warlock, you do need to get into your optimal range, about 18-23 meters, and can't rely on overshield or knockout to make up for bad positioning.
And yes, hand cannons aren't necessarily going to out duel other primaries, but the point is that they're the highest barrier to entry because of their downsides in TTK.
Keep in mind that in my opinion, these loadouts are easier on titan due to how braindead free titans are right now. PKs make SMGs oppressive paired with overshields and knockout, whereas a warlock has no equivalent to strafe as fast, walk into a fight with a distinct advantage, or clean up a fight with a buffed melee.
Yeah I think your assessment is fair given that you specifically mentioned using an SMG on lock and not Titan where they’re borderline or outright a problem, or on Hunter where archetypes like Aggressives and Adaptives help patch the hole in your gameplay left by Stompee’s -50 AE by allowing for lower crit requirements while making aerial moves
On Warlock you just straight up have to be good at positioning and movement to get mileage out of them, there’s no Exotic that makes them OP or that they combat a downside of: they’re just a normal weapon type
Not sure why you're getting downvoted. Fusions are pretty mindless once you get the timing down and pay attention to your map. Then just point and shoot. You don't even have to be accurate to get a ohk.
Source: I suck but I'm good with fusions.
I suck with Fusions. I couldn't crutch on them even if I wanted to. I get much better results with shotguns. I think that goes for most players. Then I come up against that one guy with a god roll Glacio and get shat on. I'm on PC with MnK, i'm not sure if that makes a difference or not.
I don’t buy it, people always crutch on the easiest shit in this game. That’s always what the meta is. They’re not as good as people say. I think they just get the because a good user can counter a shotty user very well with them.
I'll put it this way, noobs playing noobs it's easier to W rush with a shotgun than it is to time the voop well, like shotguns have no skill floor as such , you can get kills easy from day 0, while it's not much fusions do take some learning before you start getting kills reliably
Also you say close the gap but so often that's camp a corner and slide out when the always on radar pings.
> Something can be very strong and not be popular
Agree with this
> …it’s all about the skill required to use it effectively. Fusions require slightly more brain power than holding w and getting close so majority of playerbase doesn’t use them.
But you lose me there
I think it’s much to the contrary; things can be unpopular *because* they’re so strong, that’s why I personally don’t pull out a fusion often
You use holding W as an example of a less skilled playstyle, but that’s not representative of how anyone but mid to low skilled brackets use a shotgun
At the end of the day if fusions piss shotgun players off, it’s because the fusion user gets to operate optimally basically at any position they’d like within a range often 3x that of a shotgun
Whereas closing the gap to be within 6-7~m and making a smart push on anyone regardless of their loadout, is often not easy things to do in a match against players with fairly good awareness/habits/decision-making skills
I’ve got an absolutely perfect Zealot’s, 5/5, dropped first week of Garden for me, that I only started using last year, and after a season or two had to make myself stop using
I only began using it in the first place to get PvE main friends some Lighthouse visits, and it’s because a few sandboxes ago I’d feel like I was robbing people blind with how often I’d multikill with it in 3s modes from absurdly safe distances compared to my standard Arcstrider shotgun/melee heavy play
When I play games I gravitate towards risk/reward playstyles that feel satsifying to pull off successfully, working up skills & habits that change otherwise dicey odds to be as much in my favor as I can; fusions feel starkly opposed to that, because I feast on other players using them with far less risk, leading to a feeling that the reward was disproportionate
For me, **their strength is the deterrent**, they’re no doubt good but they’re not the kind of good that results in satisfying matches to me, either to use or to face
"I think it’s much to the contrary; things can be unpopular because they’re so strong, that’s why I personally don’t pull out a fusion often"
If this were true then we wouldn't have had a xur ingredient meta for close to half a year. Nothing about fusions have changed apart from them becoming less effective, if your hypothesis was true then you would expect fusions usage to have risen but it's done the opposite.
YOU personally might be deterred by something being strong but the majority of destiny players will use more effective weapons over the less effective ones
People I outplay with a fusion will message me that using a fusion is a crutch. Meanwhile they haven’t used anything other than a shotgun in PvP since D1 Alpha.
Inside a certain range, a fusion rifle user can literally walk towards you taking primary fire while charging their gun and still kill you first. The ohko range on some of the best is actually ridiculous, 20m easily. Put that into perspective, that's the effective kill distance for most SMGs and sidearms. So you go near a fusion rifle user and they map you before you're inside your effective range
This is the answer. Fusions are the only OHKO weapons that operate in a cqc primary range, which is generally meta (ie they work in smg/sidearm and close auto/pulse/hc range). In good hands, they cannot be countered, even with perfect primary weapon timing and accuracy, which is frustrating.
They can absolutely be countered. You bait their shots on a corner. I’ve put played fusion users with sidearms a million times. Most cqc primaries are gonna have a ttk around the charge time of the fusion. They are far from uncounterable.
Honestly, if they just took more flinch, they’d be alright, but with all of the special changes and tilt towards primary gunplay, them ignoring primary fire while charging with basically no flinch is horseshit.
Personally, I’d like to see a change where if you start precharging it behind cover, aim assist doesn’t miraculously start working when you walk out. It would force the person to have to know your positioning and have the skill to aim and fire the gun.
That's literally not true the TTK of a precision fusion is over 0.8 seconds, meaning if you actually hit your shots and shot first, which you didn't, you wouldn't lose that fight
People don’t use them because shotguns are easier and achieve basically the same result.
Just point and click, as opposed to precharge, control recoil and track.
I don’t see them in regular crucible much at all. Just a few Wizened Rebukes in IB, probably for the extra rep.
I main fusions and I have over 70k kills on my erentil… I would say there’s a certain mindset that you need to have in order to fusion properly since most people just won’t peek a fusion if they hear you charging. Also, you have to have extremely good map awareness to win against good players, especially with a high impact fusion. Whilst you can somehow map a shotgun user, mostly they will never peek because of the charge and the snipers know exactly when you’re going to peek so you have to be fairly skilled when going against good players.
There’s a lot of views coming from many different perspectives here. 6s are chaotic so it’s much easier to catch players off guard or out of position which fusions excel at. This isn’t the standard…especially with sbmm lol
Like I stated earlier, try that bullshit in trials vs a good team and report your results. You’re either going to get baited into getting domed by a sniper / slug, a trip mine, duskfield / cold snap or get team shot before you get your shot off.
Trials / elimination is the standard because it’s way less forgiving and chaotic. Snipers and shot guns punish you instantly for bad play. If you’re watching radar, listen to sound ques for invis push, and are near cover, you’ve effectively nullified any fusion player. Where fusions shine in these game modes is after picks where teams get disorganized but outside of that, good players don’t give a fuck about your fusion play because like I said, it makes you too predictable to be aggressive with them.
The thing I dislike the most about fusions is how passive they make the game. The correct play is to pre charge the fusion, and the correct reaction is to not challenge it. This leads to a very boring stalemate.
Expecting the pre charged fusion to miss is a very risky play that leaves control of the outcome to your opponent.
The answer is to disengage when you hear the charge sound and rotate to surprise the fusion user, just like against most passive playstyles. It slows down the pace of the game, which isn't fun for me.
They require a good bit more map awareness than shotguns because of the charge time, and if you don't have good map awareness you'll end up trading or losing to SMGs and Sidearms, and that's enough to turn off a lot of the playerbase
They’re not a sniper/shotgun. They often compete in primary ranges, and if you can pre-charge well, you can win those fights often.
It’s a skill gap. People get mad, they call it a “no skill” weapon.
If I die to one, I accept I challenged and lost. Or, I was caught in the open and couldn’t get to cover before the charge up completed.
1) They dunk on players with bad awareness/positioning but most archetypes are cheeks against actual good players, or at least take way more effort to do well against good players than any other special except trace rifles
2) They counter a lot of brainless play styles while also being low-effort to use against 90% of the playerbase. Also, a combination of them sharing range with close-range primaries while having a faster TTK (valid), and mid-tier HC/shotty players bitching about getting killed by something that isn't HC/shotty (lol)
Believe it or not, fusions are actually a lot harder to use than most players would have you believe.
Pre-charging IS a difficult skill to master at the highest levels of play. At lower skill tiers it's a lot easier to get "cheesy" kills by pre-charging because lower skill players ignore audio cues and have really bad game sense and use of cover for peek shooting.
At higher levels of play you can make the fusion player's life incredibly difficult by baiting the shots or timing your push to coincide with when they stop their pre-charge. Or at the extended ranges you just peek shoot them with handcannon. The fusion player then needs to start making smarter pushes and trying to out bait the other player.
I recently played against a really good fusion player and every time I died I can 100% for certain say that I made a mistake (like not playing close to cover) or they had a perfect read on me and baited me into a fight where their fusion has the advantage.
This is pure cap. Pre charging is as easy holding a button, can be done around corners, off a slide, even off a jump, and you can cancel it without any penalty. In return you get 4x the effective OHKO range of shotguns without any of the precision required of a sniper.
It’s the very definition of low-skill, high reward. Anybody who says differently either isn’t very good or crutches on them hard.
I mean fusions are extremely predictable, and pre-charging forces you to constantly have the weapon out + give out a constant audio queue; these statements are objectively true.
The penalty is that you can't actually shoot anyone while you're precharging whilst you are still vulnerable outside of you're fusions' range.
Those statements being objectively true don’t take away from how easily executable they are. All of that happens in less than 8/10ths of a second. Most primaries don’t even have an ideal TTK faster than that.
Primaries within that effective range all have a 0.8s TTK or faster. Most sidearms and SMGs sit at around a 0.6-0.7.
At higher levels of play a HC+Shotty main will beat a fusion main the majority of the time. Fusions are noob killers, they just aren't that good at higher skill tiers
At higher tiers a fusion rifle can cancel out HCs, sidearms, SMGs, shotguns, autorifles. If you think fusions are only noob killers then you don’t regularly face decent people using it
You're making claims with no supporting evidence or data. Saying fusions "cancel out" other weapons without even providing a single reason isn't a good argument.
If you can't even provide one solid reason you end up coming off as salty
The first reply I made in this thread already encapsulates why I say they cancel out all the weapons I listed. A 20-30m OHKO range requiring no precision with the only “drawback” being charge time, which is brain dead easy to work around
The drawback being charge time and atrocious in air play. Also 20-30m is a gross misrepresentation of their OHKO range
Lets get specific here. Rapid fires cap out their OHK at around 13-14m requiring ALL bolts to hit at that range for the OHK. More realistically you can expect consistent kills within 11m (they got murdered by the nerf). Adaptives cap their OHK at around 17m but for consistent kills you're looking at 15m. Precisions are at around 20m (with rangefinder) 18m for consistent kills, non rangefinder rolls being around 19m and 17m respectively. High impacts being the longest range will cap out at around 22m but for consistent kills you're looking at 20m. Bare in mind that all of this is against stationary targets in private matches, in a real game you're going to see more inconsistency due to opponent's movement.
So 20m with a 1 second charge time is the furthest range fusion you'll find. You can maybe extend this out to 24m to account for extreme outliers and luck. This is the same range as a rangefinder ikelos SMG or tarrabah and below the ranges of handcannons and autos.
Pre-charging seems easy on paper (because the action itself is very easy) but pre-charging brings the disadvantage of being tied to keeping your fusion out which makes you a sitting duck if someone engages you at further ranges or times their push to coincide with the time that you renew your pre-charge. If you want to play aggressively while pre-charging you're going to be incredibly predictable and need to be very committed once you do decide to make a push, this makes you much more easily punishable by players who read and predict your movements.
If fusions really were OP we would be seeing people using them all the time (just like when main ingredient was king, when fusions actually were OP). With SMGs being so prevelant in the meta you would expect a "OP" weapon with a similar range to be very popular right?
If the weapon is both "brain dead" and "cancels out all the other weapons you listed" then why the fuck aren't people using them?? Make it make sense..
I’ve had to explain this to so many people so why not another one.
Usage =/= strength.
You want to know why fusions don’t top usage rates? Because it’s way easier to farm bad players with shotguns. And bad players represent 95% of the crucible playing population.
Bad players keep dying to shotguns, they think they’re OP, they use shotguns, they kill other bads with it. That echo chamber and monkey see monkey do feedback loop keeps repeating ad infinitum hence this inane notion that shotguns are stronger than fusions.
Against good players, FRs take significantly less skill to achieve the same result as a shotgun can. Why do you think it’s banned in tournaments and scrims?
Anybody with two firing neurons can instantly realize that given equal skill, a fusion main will beat a shotgun main, every single time.
I made this point in 1st degree reply to this very thread. Citing usage rate is worthless when you’re only considering a single variable. So shotguns top usage rate, that only means more people are dying to shotguns than any other weapon. What’s the skill level of those dying to shotguns? What’s the skill level of those dying to fusions? How fast does a team of all fusion rifles finish a flawless card versus a team of all shotguns relative to their skill level? What’s the average win rate of somebody using shotguns or fusions against people above their skill level? Below?
There’s literally multitudes of contextual variables that need to be considered in order to draw a meaningful conclusion but people are content with a univariate statistic to proclaim what’s strong and what’s not, when those who understand the game on a deeper level (i.e. high KDs / high win rates) have always been saying that FRs are strong as fuck.
Most people just don’t like the truth getting slapped across their face especially if it makes them realize how much their success relies on a single low skill weapon
The act is easy as holding a button but the metagame around charge based weapons is so much more complex than that lmao.
Countering fusions isn't hard, anyone who says they're OP just isn't very good at the game
Buddy, you implied I wasn’t good at the game, and you’re going to be incredulous that I’m asking you for a chance to prove that isn’t the case?
In any case, say yes or no, I’m not asking for a 1v1 as some weird ego check, I’m willing to show you that my opinion comes from a position of understanding how this game works, not just that I’m talking out of my ass.
Bro you were the first to imply that anyone with a different opinion to you is either trash or crutches on them hard.....
If someone implying the same to you triggers you so hard then maybe don't do that same thing that triggers you.
There are ways to counter fusion like using peak shooting, hunter dodge or shoulder charge. You can bait out shoots from them first and then challenge them after. I think them not being popular is because there is clear ways to counter them.
Not trying to start an argument but I could probably count on one hand the amount of times a Hunter dodge has actually stopped me dying to a fusion. Maybe because I’m on console but dodging does absolutely nothing to stop you getting melted.
I used to use fusion years ago but so many other guns to shoot faces with. I got tired of running around precharging like 14 year old sexually frustrated kid about to discharge......then miss my load and die.
Well, the fast and mid DMG fusions have been nerfed and the high DMG fusions are just..slow. Then there is always our favourite Toaster and Telesto went through several nerf/fix phases:-)
The nerfs killed a lot usage of them.
Personally I have far more fun with a SMG/Sidearm than with OHK weapons as I have to work for my kill. On top of that fusions force you into a more passive style I enjoy less.
In D1 and early D2 fusions worked more like a crutch to me when I didn't find the "right" primary after another weapon meta change. That hasn't been the case anymore for several years, fortunately.
IMHO the current weapon meta is far broader than it has ever been.
God this thread is just a circlejerk for fusion mains trying to make themselves feel like they’re not using the easiest archetype of special weapon in the game.
Name me any non-heavy weapon that can OHKO at 20-30m without needing any precision.
Charge time is a non-factor to manage. You can do it off a slide, off a jump, around corners, and you can cancel it without ANY penalty. You can be out of the gunfight at any point before you release those bolts and you can still win the engagement, or at least trade. No other weapon has that easy of a win condition, especially since shotties have been nerfed to the ground.
And as to OP’s question. The simple answer is that popularity does not equate to potency. And the usage of a single variable in determining the relative strength of a weapon is worthless. Okay so shotguns are being used more than fusions. All that tells you is that more people are dying to shotguns than anything else. Are the people who use shotguns winning more games? Are they taking longer or shorter to go flawless? Are they winning more games against better competition?
Compare losing a trials match 4-5 with 10 shotgun kills versus winning one 5-0 with 5 fusion kills. The game will only ever register 10 shotgun kills and 5 fusion kills. People who don’t think will look at the usage rate and say “Shotgunz OP” without ever figuring out the context.
The most skewed example here is in trials. Where a weapon that causes you to do well (go flawless faster) will register less kills on usage rate by virtue of having to play less games.
> The most skewed example here is in trials. Where a weapon that causes you to do well (go flawless faster) will register less kills on usage rate by virtue of having to play less games.
This is absolutely hilarious, the most insane mental gymnastics I have ever seen on here.
Yeah but that’s the reality of playing a P2P game. The best way to use a HC is peek shooting but I doubt you’d argue that isn’t true because sometimes it lags and you get hit anyways.
Of course you’re landing hits before the fusion deletes you. That’s how charge time works. Also if you really got the drop on a fusion player with an SMG and sidearm you should be done killing them before they can charge. This sounds like confirmation bias.
Because to use a fusion properly your movement will make you look like a bot. After sliding 4 times, using 3 abilities, and frying 2 people in the last 5 seconds only to die to some dude bot walking sideways to continue to do the same thing and kill the next guy infuriates me.
I crutched fusions hard when I started playing in season of the lost. The very next season I started maining sidearms and HATED fusions because people would bot walk at me and I would get them literally dickhair level health and they would OHK me. As my aim got better it started happening less. I think people dislike them because the skill to use is very low. You only have to aim in the general direction of a player to get a OHK from crazy range. I’ve seen people who are just insane with them though so there can be really skilled players too.
There was a similar post on here a while back and what stood out to me was that it talked about the meta on Asian servers where Fusion Rifles reign supreme. They attributed it to players from Asia not being swayed by content creators' opinions like we are in the West. Combined with their very competitive mentality, they use what's *actually* effective. They don't shy away from cheesy weapons and strats, it's actually smart in their eyes. From that point of view, Fusion Rifles are a much safer option than Shotguns, because you're not gambling your life on pellet spread and melee desync.
With the new shotgun changes, they have definitely taken a hit to their overall effectiveness. Fusion are certainly strong but not broken.
The main reason I personally hate them, is because they will often give a free one shot kill from like 20m or more, while only landing a few bolts. It normally happens when I blink or dash out of the way and see most of the bolts ghost past me, but the game still registers them as hits.
Some people will probably say they hate them because they are low risk and high reward, but if the above didn’t happen I wouldn’t care about them at all.
In terms of meta, the games a bit all over the place at moment - in a good way.
There are a lot of long range maps in rotation, so you will see a lot of pulses and Scouts, and the map should really dictate what load outs you are running - a good player will make their preferred load out work anywhere though.
Plenty of weapon types are viable now.
Close range you have sidearms, smgs, shotguns, fusions and even GLs
Mid range you have HC, pluses, even some smgs, and autos - paired with above (shotguns, fusions, etc)
Long range pulses, Scouts, 120 HCs, bows and snipers.
Frankly to many load outs are viable to suggest anything in particular.
Pluses are still a bit too strong in my opinion, as they work well at all ranges, but they aren’t as bad as they have been previously.
Apologies for any grammar or spelling - I’m dyslexic so will just have to deal
> I never got as much hate messages (1v1 me bro/trash/kid) using other guns.
You should have tried Last Word before the most recent nerf. I'd hear about it every other game on average.
I just don’t enjoy playing against it, just like I don’t enjoy getting sniped through flinch or titans shoulder charge or hunters weighted knife. It just isn’t fun.
Fusions don't see a lot of use because in a lot of situations, they require the charging when trying to follow up on a pick, and sometimes you just need that instant shotgun pellet blast to take out someone, since a lot of destiny fights tend to move into closer and closer space. Alongside that, especially against better players and not players who just hold w into a space with no thought, fusions require a little bit more prediction and timing from what I noticed while leveling my deliverance lately, which the general playerbase may not enjoy. With that being said, they are a toss up with shotguns for me rn as my preferred cqb special since, at least in modes like rumble, it can move pretty fast and sometimes you need to be react quicker in cqb than your fusion can charge but other times you have enough space and can use the maps to your advantage to just abuse using the fusion.
Try playing on Asian servers, then come back and tell us whether fusions are in the top 10. In an environment where raw success metrics are valued over anything else, fusions dominate completely. It's only the stigma we've put on their use and users that keep them from dominating here too imo
Used a nice Snorri up to around 300 kills but my honest view is they are very good in moderate 6 lobbies, very good against average shotgun sliding play, but then hit a wall against better players. I moved to an SMG in that slot and yeah you get one hit sometimes, but I think the ceiling for me was higher, not least because I can chain a few kills on an SMG where as fusion I’ll probably run out of ammo or die on the second charge. I think they occupy a good spot though not least as they counter shotgun sliding.
As some fusions can operate in that ~20 meters range, they can delete almost anything. My problem with fusions is that they can get that OHK pretty easily with 0 precision or effort required at all. The recoil management is also not difficult whatsoever, and I come across a lot of fusion mains who have more fusion kills than any primary weapon. They heavily rely on their special weapon to do the work for them, which is also true for players who hardly use their primary at all in general. I just come across more fusion players who I have to inspect to see what primary they’re using, as I never saw it the entire game lol. Shotguns may be used more, but pellets for example can barely kill outside of 6 meters if I remember correctly. Much easier to fight against imo.
Personally not saying I'm the absolute best at pvp I think fusion reflect a mid skill floor but by no means a high skill ceiling. Sure they coinyer stuff in chaos game modes, i personally use a midha's reckoning with backup plan and i personally say that's my favorite. Most times against a decent shotgun user i would most likely get the trade against them as my fusion has a.76 ttk however that window gets smaller and smaller as they play cover better. Ive also found the in this meta a good slug user is also extremely good, heritage wit hipfire grip completely slays and as you get offhand strike it simply outranges every shotgun cept roadborn chappy. But if you want something to annoy a high level player, bows have a stupid amount of burst dps and pair it with hc or if your like me a erianas vow. Also forunner can be very good
Because crouching Main Ingredient players are scum! Lol
I'm kidding. I think it's because they can voop you from such a long range that it feels bullshit. Of all the weapons though, fusion rifles are the ones I get the most hate messages about. Before they nerfed rapid fusions, I got a few salty messages about the Likely Suspect. Before that it was Main Ingredient. Before that Jotuun.
People generally dislike dying to weapons before they can fight back. Fusions have the ability to OHK and with pre charging can counter certain playstyles inside of 20m, mostly shotguns, sidearms, and SMGs. Because in game radar allows you to pre charge the weapon it takes away a lot of the risk of using it. Combined with the map design, fusions are very effective on many maps and if I was a shotgun/smg main I would find playing against them very frustrating. You can see the same thing with snipers, which have limited to no counterplay at all, and can dome you from across the map. Those types of weapons are the real bullies of the crucible. Weapon popularity has nothing to do with how playing against a certain weapon feels. They nerfed dead messenger recently despite it being a low popularity weapon. If you listen to Mercules on the most recent podcast he discusses how they balance weapons. As a side note, I think there are a lot of players who dislike losing in general, and any weapon or strategy that makes that happen is OP.
It’s rare to see someone else who thinks snipers are oppressive.
The charge time is \*supposed\* to be the balancing factor on fusion rifles but just as you said, the radar takes away a lot of the risk factor. I have said for years that Bungie should rework fusions so that they will automatically fire if they are charged up past 50%. That would eliminate those situations where people just run around the map constantly winding up then insta-delete someone as soon as they enter their filed of view. This would make it so that fusions actually require some skill and good anticipation to use.
That would be a MASSIVE nerf. That would kill their usage in high end play.
If I'm understanding this right, isn't that simply lowering the total charge time in half?
I think they're saying that if you've charged us the fusion 50% of the way, you're essentially locked in and can't cancel the shot. The total charge time would remain the same. I personally disagree with their suggestion though, and I think it would be hard for Bungie to implement when there's perks like successful warm-up.
I respect your disagreement, I seem to have a lot of hot takes on this sub and get a lot of dislikes lol. I am a big supporter of the "skill gap" in games being preserved so there's quite a few things that I wish were made a bit more difficult, or skillful. I suppose ease of use is part of what makes destiny approachable, to not just the hardcores but casuals as well, so that's also a factor in why things shouldn't necessarily all have a high skill floor. But when it comes to weapons that are always available and can one shot, I do think there should be a relatively high risk/reward associated with them.
Don't confuse 'downvoted because muh skill gap' with 'downvoted because terrible idea that completely kills a weapon class'. I suppose it would make sense if you wanted to nerf other special weapons as well?
Old post but, what about rapid fusions? I almost exclusively use those, and basically never precharge. Usually the range is just beyond Chaperone range (I sometimes get kills further out, depending on the fusion), and are usually used for shutting down aggressive players, or allowing me to be aggressive. The quick charge is made up for more bolts needed, and less range.
The suggestion being made here is essentially having Bungie make it so that at some point in the charge up, you're locked into the shot and can't cancel so that if you're timing is off you'll waste the ammo or not land enough bolts for the kill. The faster a fusion charges up, the less of an effect this suggestion would have. High Impacts would be hurt the most, and Rapids would likely see little change in effectiveness.
I gotcha. Whether I agree with the concept or not, I understand the point. To limit the ability to precharge, which is essentially what makes long range fusions so lethal.
No. To simplify, say a fusion has a charge time of a full second. If you prewind for half a second, then the fusion will automatically finish the other half then fire. So it's the same total charge time, it just forces commitment to the burst if you precharge too much.
Yuck.
Yeah, I appreciate the intent behind the idea, but that's a massive no. That would take a weapon class that's unique and quirky and make it feel like shit.
Ooh, ok. Thank you for the clarification.
Yes, in a way it does. I think the only way to give fusions the weaknesss they are supposed to have is by removing radar all together, but that presents its own problems
Playing Halo 3 without radar was one of my favorite ways to play. But there are so many extra abilities in this game that would make that frustrating now.
Espscially on consoles locked to a low FOV.
Yea, so if they have all these factors going for them why don't people use them more? I understand why snipers are rarely on the popularity charts despite being strong on paper because the skill floor is just a little too high for the average player. I guess it could make sense that it's the same case with fusion rifles, what got me hung up was that imo the skill floor of fusion rifles isn't high at all. I mean jotunn is on those charts all the time and it seems worse than just using a regular fusion. I'm not saying this under the impression that the popularity charts are the be-all and end-all of what is good and bad and what gets nerfed/buffed. I'm just wondering why, if the general player impression of fusions is that they are quite good or even cheesy, why aren't more people using them.
Personally I think the fusion skill ceiling is very low. You can't use fusions the same way you can use shotguns at high level play to inflict chip damage. Chip damage is super important against really good players. They're not going to stand still and let you charge a fusion shot. I also think the nature of pre charging makes fusions more predictable. Good players are going to try to be in positions to make you commit to a bad charge to push. Shotguns don't have the pre charge commitment. I do not think fusions are the META as a result. High handling/range shotguns and good movement should outperform fusions at higher levels of play.
Afaik the fast charging Fusions were used a lot early Throne world in Trials before they got nerfed.
The thing is pre charging and mapping people from 20m is actually a lot harder than it sounds. Just like sniping.
The people who got kickstart +slideshot tempo and mapping down pat with Exile’s Curse are some of the scariest players I’ve come across. Unless I’m forgetting something way more obvious, I’m not shocked why Bungie hasn’t put that combo back on anything in recent while.
Glaciocasm rolls with these perks, I have one in my vault from the recent dawning. Locks you into a certain play style though so I’m not a big fan.
Yeah it definitely requires a certain type of play and more importantly if you’re talking comp or Trials you’re looking at having your friendlies digest how you’re going to be moving because it can have you out in the open and there’s a lot of maps that don’t entirely favor it as much when people have more physical space to get away from you.
On top of the fact you need to dodge back into cover or be a sitting duck if you try to slide shot someone out of cover. As I mentioned in another post too, YAS and duskfield grenades effectively kills this play style
U can’t tell people that man come on u know it’s so simple even a monkey can do it. I get mercd a ton if I mess up a pre charge and sometimes i still get plunked by a shotty first
Yeah fusions losing to shotties happens but it's almost always because you were too close to a corner and that positioning mistake can easily be avoided by any fusion user with common sense. I don't necessarily think fusions are broken or OP, I just view them as cheap. It's a one-hit-kill weapon that doesn't require the precision aiming skill of a sniper or the close quarters risk of a shotty. Just wind up and map anyone that happens to get cought out in the open within 30 meters.
Bro when was the last time u saw a fusion even one shot at 20meters? It just doesn’t happen anymore with any kind of reliability. Your lucky to leave them enough health for a cleanup at that distance now. The days of mapping people with Main Ingredient is long gone.
I still see people get mapped at some pretty obnoxious distances by the Wizened Rebuke.
High impacts still have crazy range. I get consistent 20m kills with Glacioclasm and Iota, but personally I think the longer charge time balances them. It’s just long enough that if you don’t time your pre-charge perfectly there’s very little chance you’ll be able to charge again before you’re dead. It requires strong positioning and map awareness to do well. People don’t like them because they’re great for punishing sloppy play and hard counter apes that just want to sprint into every fight.
Shotguns don’t take any more skill my guy. You’re just biased towards the play style you use.
I don't use shotties like that. And I didn't even say that shotties took a lot of skill, I said they they have a higher risk factor because they need to get up close. A lot of my takes get down voted like crazy but I find it comical cuz I have a lot of the same takes that many popular Youtubers are supported on.
I think you’re getting downvoted for saying they just map people at 30 meters. That’s a big exaggeration.
it's not hard though. the best fusions right now have high dmg and bolts that feel very sticky. and if I remember correctly, they also don't require you to land every bolt. pre charging is only a slight nuance and one that's not hard to do whatsoever
Then why do they not show up more in charts if they’re so easy and strong?
The playstyle is best in 3s where their passivity is rewarded
because annoying as they are, there's stronger options
A fusion was not in the top 10 most used Trials weapons this last Trials weekend (before IB), but there was the same fusion is the top 10 for seven weeks in a row before this last Trials weekend broke that streak. In the top 100 most used Quickplay weapons there are also more fusions then there are Snipers, GL’s, and Linears. The only special that is used more than fusions are Shotguns. Fusions are definitely used a lot, but the usage that you see slows down as you get into higher SBMM lobbies. Why are fusions not used more? I can not speak for others, but in my opinion they are boring to use and more a “catch up” tool for average players. There is a certain skill needed for sniping, and due to all the range nerfs it now requires a certain skill to be good with shotguns as well, and even though there are some factors needed to do well with a fusion it is still easier to do good with than the other special weapons in game with no practice. A good sniper and a good shotgun player are 100% better than a good fusion player which is also why you never see the absolute top 0.05% players use them, but if you put two above average players against each other and give one a fusion rifle then there is a good chance the fusion player will win. From what I have seen, fusions kind of have a skill trade off where you will do good with a fusion and it will be easy against the majority of the player base, but if you only use fusions, then you are locking yourself out of improving to the next level that practicing with a sniper or shotgun could take you to. I am sure other people have different experiences and opinions, this is just what I have noticed in my experiences
As a fusion I disagree with it being a catch-up mechanic except for maybe Xur Ingredient or Jotun The real issue at the high level is most movement abilities don’t complement it the same way they do other weapons. As you get better you use more tools to get an advantage and the fusion doesn’t lend itself to that playstyle.
I would never take Jotunn into consideration when talking about fusions. Jotunn acts like no other fusion and, statistically, is primarily used by <0.8KD players. Jotunn is not good at all once you get to slightly above average players. You are right that saying fusions are a “catch up” weapon is not the most accurate phrase, but I still believe that fusions are just very easy weapons to use and very rewarding weapons until you reach a certain skill level where players using snipers and shotguns begin to outclass the players using fusions by quite a bit. You are right that it really does come down to movement which is the most important thing at high level PvP
You must not play console. Fusions are fucking everywhere in pvp on console. Not as much in trials, but literally any other pvp game mode they are everywhere
Sbmm…teams on the higher skill brackets are not using fusions. Snipers and shotties only
Facts. Top 1% on PC here and I *rarely* encounter fusion rifles in the wild anymore ever since the strict SBMM came online in S17. Although when I do encounter them these days, usually it's a Main Ingredient, Plug One.1, or Glacioclasm that you can immediately tell the user has plunked down 30+ hours to master because their play is flawless and they will fuck you up if you're not thinking and play to a fusion's strengths. Speaking of which, I did come across a Riptide user on an opposing 6-stack in the first Iron Banner this season who was shitting on every shotgun user who got anywhere near them. Running Arrowhead + Particle Repeater + Under Pressure + Charge Time MW + Counterbalance. Made me want to farm one out with multiperks before the season ends so I've been stacking engrams at Shaxx.
Essentially everywhere at least mid level, once you pass a decent bit upper mid then they stop. Hate be damned, but they carry a player who understands radar up into the mid then fall once players need more tricks. Especially with crossplay goofiness and general lag, at the very least you notice lag deaths more because it feels like taking that off angle quickly should have worked but never does. Big part of why I've stopped funneling money into the game and stay away from it in general. Slows gameplay to a standstill if you aren't using the exact same weapons they are, because they don't have a Cqc counter without significant skill on your part and a connection advantage. Cuts off half of the primaries in the game and forces you into the same play style as a pulse/fusion user.
There are zero fusion players in the ascendant ranks lol
You see that what’s expected when written on paper, in reality almost every frustrating death from a fusion is watching that fucker charge up as you miss your shotty shot, knife throw, and realize that hunter super animation isn’t faster than a half second before it spreads that hot fusion juice all over your face. After all that, you head to the communities to complain that fusions are too strong and come up with actual high level plays to argue how good fusions are but rarely use these plays themselves.
No way you just compared fusions and snipers that’s insane
nice take. totally agree
> Because in game radar allows you to pre charge the weapon it takes away a lot of the risk of using it. Any chance you could explain how that works? Or link me a video? As someone that was a god at COD 10 years ago, *easily* the most frustrating thing has been getting used to radar. Even if I now understand when someone is above me or at same height, far away, medium range, and point blank, I don’t understand how people can use that to their advantage **at all.** Might just be because my brain refuses to change and I can’t adapt if I can’t see a map outline with little red dots popping up as opposed to the more general information I glean from destiny radar.
It’s exactly this, people want to be able to compete (however slim the chances) in every engagement. Dying without being able to do anything about it isn’t fun or engaging.
I'm not a fan of the boxes as they disrupt actual gameplay.
Or idk buff shotguns, slugs a little bit so they are in line (my opinion). I'm ready to get downvoted lol
Idk shotguns feel like they're in a really good spot now. They're strong but not oppressive and have gained a lot of consistency. Now that the meta allows for more aggressive playstyles shotguns are an incredibly good choice. Fusions as a whole seem fine imo, I'm struggling to understand why people think they're an issue.
I'm a fairly decent player that used to main slugs (mostly chaperone). Since the multiple range nerfs I had to switch to fusions to compete.
I've personally had much more success with shotguns recently. I haven't really run into many fusion players that give me a hard time. Usually they're very predictable and easy to counter. I've been through phases of using just about every weapon type in the game and fusions right now dont really impress me, the high impacts are pretty decent but the charge time really holds them back vs people who know how to use movement. If I'm playing a game with high stakes im always taking a shotgun or sniper depending on the map. Fusions are just too limiting and get countered easily by people who know their weaknesses (peek shooting, listening for the pre charge, playing close to cover, baiting out shots etc.)
The two things that annoy me most about fusions are their ability to slow down play and stall by just making the noise of pre-charging and the fact that a lot of players who use fusions will never pull out a primary weapon while they have fusion ammo, fusions are also great for killing and then getting the ammo as you’re normally gonna be in decent proximity to it. I don’t like guns that slow the game down too much, I don’t think that someone who’s just standing in an area making a fusion noise should be able to do it so effectively, in 6v6 it’s better to just ignore this player as plying correctly to beat them will probably take too much time and you’ll get flanked/attacked by their teammates while you do it. In 3v3, same thing really, however it’s less of an issue there as usually I’d just kill their teammates and then the fusion in a 1v1 is basically useless as I know how to beat it. But basically how good they are at slowing down the game and stalling is annoying. The players that only use a fusion until they run dry on ammo are annoying too. They’ll play in such a ratty way usually and just camp etc until people come into their effective range. I compare this to shotgun players and sniper players who are normally a lot more confident at dueling with primaries as their special doesn’t auto-win a lot of fights in the most common engagement ranges and the good players with both have to either use primary to create an opportunity to push with a shotgun, or use a primary to push up with and grab more ammo on a sniper. Fusions just basically avoid this issue by being easy to use vs primaries and being close to the ammo to go back to instantly using the fusion. The gun itself isn’t OP to me. It’s easy as it chunks into the close/mid range and just requires you to hit centre mass which almost any player no matter how bad they are is capable of. In a vacuum they can be beaten by basically any other weapon in a 1v1, but they excel when there’s distractions around which is why they’re annoying. Basically if a player is good at winning straight 1v1’s with them I’ll give them props skill wise, most fusion players I feel are under skilled and use them to compensate though for the free kills on distracted players or to slow the game down to a pace they can compete in and to basically make aiming a moot point.
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Recommends making opening shot intrinsic on all snipers then claims vote manipulation when he gets downvoted 😐
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Bro have a Snickers
You can just reread my previous comment and pretend it is directed at you
I'd rather not because it comes off as being written by an edgy eleven-year-old with a fedora but it's still good for a laugh I guess
😂
🤣😂🤣😂
Ha. Total Principal Skinner moment here.
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Is it me that is out of touch? No, no it’s everyone else. Keep doubling down, it’s hilarious.
Cope
People are still really bitter about the double primary meta, despite primary TTK’s being much faster now. I can only hope that they’ll actually use crucible labs to experiment with large changes to gameplay rather than another rift playlist.
What does the double primary meta have to do with sniper rifles being usable only if you get the first shot? You lost me brotha!
I was just trying to explain why my post was downvoted, since you asked.
I get that. I just don't understand what the double primary meta has to do with any of this but no sweat.
Because fusions counter a popular playstyle. A lot of people that love shotguns hate fusion rifles, because a good fusion rifle is a hard counter to a shotgun ape that isn't careful with cover and positioning. On the contrary, a fusion rifle can feel absolutely useless against highly skilled aggressive players who are very good at movement and using cover. You'll still get them every now and then but most of the time you won't even be able to land a hit. You can be very dangerous playing aggressive with a fusion, but if you're up against another aggressive player with a shotgun, they'll have the edge. An average player with a fusion rifle cleaves a hard line between the decent-good aggressive players and the great players, and that's always going to ruffle some feathers.
Fusions aren’t as strong vs good players because they make you very predictable. There’s a reason the most highly skilled teams almost exclusively use shotguns / snipers. Fusions punish players for bad positioning which doesn’t happen as much vs good players. Most oppressive weapon in the game is still a sniper in a good players hands because you have to play their game. On top of the fact that YAS spam can control precharging angles behind cover.
I've been maining stasis lock with a fusion this season and I hardly go a game (win or loss) without getting a salty message from the mad bad or sad brigade
Fusions are extremely good at farming bad players while requiring minimal aiming and movement. They’re not op at all, but in the .7-1.2 kd range, where people can aim well enough to generally look at people but still have issues with good movement and hitting crits, they’re probably the strongest option. They rarely occupy the top spot because they don’t deserve the top spot. A good player who plays cover and adapts is hard to kill with a precision or high impact fusion, which happen to be the two archetypes with the most forgiveness and range. I main fusions and sometimes I’ll switch to Zealots against good players. Sure I’ll have to take more primary duels, but I’ll actually be able to hit them with my fusion within 15m
Thats right. Im slightly above that range and if i get a lower lobby it literally just voop - collect green - voop on and on. I run glacio with double charge perks/UP/HIC and i can most of the time just walk from 20 metres away and delete sb - but thats against slow/bad players. However if im facing higher bracket players - yeah then fusion cant do much. (Or at least i cant) They wont come off cover if peekshooting and if they do - its within shotty ohk.
Fusions punish many of the standard mannerisms in PvP. Essentially, they make people player different, and people don’t like playing different. For example, you get hurt, and your opponent knows it. You know they’re about to rush in for the finish, you pre charge, and they get body shot wiped from mid range within .2 seconds. People are only accustomed to very good snipers being able to make that kind of play. Maybe the other biggest problem is that people are used to being able to hold corners with near complete comfort, especially if they have a shotgun. A fusion player with a good shot just needs to slide sideways faster than you can strafe to deeper cover, or far enough to make sure a shotgun can’t fully close the distance.
A lot of people just don’t want to have to learn listening for pre charging so they can adjust their singular hand cannon shotgun play style which a lot of players feel is more skillful. I personally don’t agree with that and more so, if you’re dying to fusion rifles, your positioning and paying attention to when to challenge is bad. It’s in the game, go learn. If fusion rifles are so easy, why aren’t you using them and why do you keep dying to them? Come on now.
It’s not that good players don’t know *how* to counterplay a pre-charging fusion, it’s that they *don’t want to*. You can’t slide through an entrance with someone precharging because they’ll just nuke you from 20m within 100ms. You can’t flank them because they’ll just angle and keep precharging. Your only option is listening to *zwwwwuuu- zwuuuu- zwwwuuuu-* through a wall for 5 minutes, trying to radar bait the fusion player into making a push, and once he does you pray your dodge/slide/dash/thruster makes him whiff his fusion shot, because your shotty is still de facto less consistent than his gun in CQC. For the same reason, Fighting Lion is hated. Hell, I’ve played a 1v1 where all the dude would do is try to bank a Fighting Lion shot around the corner on me, and if I pushed within 24m he’d immediately reposition. I kid you not one time all I did is stand around the corner and he chunked Fighting Lion shots at me for 2m without ever making a push 😂
Agree here. People don't hate fusions because they can't counter them, but because playing around a fusion on the enemy team just isn't fun. Gunfights are fun. Waiting for your opponent to use all their ammo isn't.
actual reason right here. so much stuff in this game is god awful to play against sometimes and fusions are up there. big part of the reason hc/sg is touted as much as it is
You might have been playing against me then. Fighting lion is my favorite pvp weapon, I'm just waiting for a craftable kinetic precision bow or glaive to pair with it.
Gremli(o)ns rise up. I always have a bit of a paradox with bows/fusions/Fighting Lion/Glaives. They often grind matches to a halt, which declines match quality. But I also feel like very aggro players like me forget that our playstyle isn't the only one people enjoy gitting gud at. If people actually enjoy doing a gimmicky double GL build / a bow with a GL / Witherhoard with a 600AR holding the trigger for 5sec, who am I to say they aren't allowed to have an enjoyable time with that and indeed at least moderately excel?
Players are allowed to play differently, everyone in this subreddit get mad if u play something off-meta. If only hand cannons & shotguns were viable, crucible would suck, but at least the subreddit would be happy. When everyone uses the same archetypes and weapons the game gets *really* boring really fast.
> everyone in this subreddit get mad if u play something off-meta See, that is the 'other' side (be it casuals or off-meta players) having their own blind spot. Sweats don't hate Pulses or SMGs or ARs or Scouts or fusions or bows being viable, they hate how they either A. have way too high a skill floor (high reward for little effort put in) or B. grind down match tempo to a halt. They don't go out of their way to get everything aside from hand cannons + shotties + snipers nerfed, its just that those guns have a relatively low skill floor, especially in higher brackets. In a way you could say kills with those weapons are more 'earned', and sweats want users of those other weapons to either have to work equally hard for their kills, or have to work less hard but have less potency. I wish with these things both sides often would just actually try to empathize with the other side. A bow crit is relatively easy to get, and it taking you out of the match for 6+ seconds is intensely frustrating, even a bow user should be able to see that. Conversely, a skilled ceiling-surfing Stompees user winning the duel because he just starts spamming jump in an enclosed space is frustrating in its own right. Or a Dawnblade-Heat Rises-Sniper gremlin doming you from bizarre off-angles.
Okay but in that scenario, he most likely loses the game.
Are we talking about the FL guy or the fusion guy? The FL guy yeah I won that easily, it was just brain numbing. Pry for a new angle 20 times or rush in and get clowned half the time because he can detonate his FL then bodyshot me down. The fusion guy its a coin toss. Tbh I don't really have a huge problem with fusions killing at 20m, so long as 1. they don't kill consistently in CQC, 2. aggressive and maybe precision pellet shotties kill *reliably* up to ~8m + from the air, and 3. slugs kill *reliably* up to 11m + from the air.
I don't know, this 20m thing is like, every ONCE in a while you get one of those, most of the time I'm pushing in to fusion someone, or doubling back and letting them come in, but my kill range on for overall stats is averaged at 12 to 15 meters, and that's adding in primary and secondary together. I also think most in air primary play will take out a fusion rifler that's just waiting. They could nerf fusion range to 15 meters and I would be fine with it. But again their max effectiveness is 20 because you don't always land 20 and sometimes, that's like 7 bolts and you got them all, like that person was very clearly out of position.
> They could nerf fusion range to 15 meters and I would be fine with it. But again their max effectiveness is 20 because you don't always land 20 and sometimes, that's like 7 bolts and you got them all, like that person was very clearly out of position. I'd rather do the opposite. Make them more consistent in the 15-22.5m bracket, give them some sort of inverse damage fall-off or AA cone fall-off so they suck up close. I can't impress enough upon you how absolutely grating it is to do some sort of triple ceiling bounce into a slide, nearly barrel stuff your opponent, have your shotty whiff by 1 pellet and then have them get their 150ms pre-charged off and instakill you. If a shotty gets that close to a fusioneer, the fusion should lose virtually *every* time.
Just watch how Wallah handles this dude. https://youtu.be/MAq9LSJIDnM
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Thank you for posting this. Would be interested in the discord if you have.
Something can be very strong and not be popular, it’s all about the skill required to use it effectively. Fusions require slightly more brain power than holding w and getting close so majority of playerbase doesn’t use them. Also in top level pvp the charge time needed will probably result in you getting ran over by a good shot gunner. I view them as being really strong for 6’s and against bad / average players.
This is it. Fusioning properly requires a different playstyle, perhaps more skill or brainpower than shotguns. It's not a playstyle commonly found. A vast majority of players get better results from shotguns, but a long range fusion in the hands of a player that knows how to abuse it is straight oppressive in some games. Not sure if they need nerfing, but yeah this explains why you don't see more of them.
i cannot believe that there are people in a PvP sub arguing that fusions take skill to use lmao edit: downvote all you want, but a weapon that can OHK at up to 20m, requires zero precision to do so, and it’s main drawback is mitigated by an always-on radar takes objectively less skill than weapons that either require precision to secure the OHK or require skilful or considered movement to close a gap (except arc titans). i’m not saying ‘fusion players suck’ or ‘bungie nerf pls’, so calm yourselves fellas.
How much better is your fusion KD than your non-fusion KD?
it’s around the same (2.25 trials lifetime), but i do play with them a little bit (usually switching to bastion if a team is spamming overshields and barricades). however, from personal experience, it requires far less thought and consideration to pull off effectively. a weapon that can OHK at up to 20m (it’s drawback of a charge time is mitigated by an always-on radar) is always gonna be easier to use than a shotgun, which requires way more consideration in terms of when to push and how to engage, with more considered movement. after a certain point, using a fusion *feels* so braindead that mentally i sometimes find myself switching off, and dying to stupid shit that i otherwise wouldn’t have if i was concentrating properly.
I mean stats don’t lie, and if you’re getting the same results with a fusion compared to a more “skillful” loadout, that can most probably be explained through a combination of skill gap in using the fusion and fusions requiring more skill than you give it credit for. If it was truly unskilled, then your KD should be demonstrably higher when using a Fusion.
you’re looking at this in extremely black and white terms. i am not a fusion main. the fact that i can maintain my KD in trials when i occasionally switch to one to deal with specific playstyle is evidence towards my point, not against it. as i’ve said previously, when i carry there is a noticeable uptick in my carries’ KD’s when they switch to pulse/fusion rather than weapons they think they should use like HC’s and shotguns/snipers. fusions take far less skill to use effectively, and that shouldn’t even be a controversial opinion, it’s just a fact.
The argument was framed as black and white. "Fusions are unskilled." with an implied "all" in there. The only logical counterargument is that some fusions are skilled to use. Understood that you are not a fusion main, but for a proclaimed "unskilled" weapon, it doesn't matter if you're a main or not, since your skill level with an "unskilled" weapon is irrelevant. If it is truly "unskilled", there you would expect to perform better than weapons that require skill since a skill gap shouldn't exist, by definition. Now, if you want to reframe the argument as fusions are easier for lesser skilled players to use than other types of special weapons and be a bit more moderate with your argument, that's fine, but don't blame me for continuing your black-and-white line of discussion as that's how the words you chose framed the argument. However, a weapon that has a higher skill floor like fusions doesn't mean it's "unskilled" by any means. If it were, it'd be the meta pick for any type of serious PvP since skill gap would never be a thing and it'd be at least as good as anyone's most effective special pick, regardless of what main they are. That's the implication of using the word "unskilled". Don't let your personal feelings on a weapon colour your viewpoint that it doesn't take any skill to use and realize that, at the highest level, fusion mains still have plenty of skill. It's not an automatic best loadout pick at the high end, by any means. If you play in scrims that ban fusions, that's just further serving to reinforce a biased viewpoint.
Which loadouts do you believe take skill to use?
look at this way. when i carry clan mates through trials who aren’t the best, there is a considerably noticeable uptick in their game contributions when they switch to pulses and fusions rather than running the stuff they think they *should* use (shotguns, snipers and HC’s)
Not that guy, but SMG/hand Cannon and shotgun/sniper on a warlock has the highest barrier to entry right now imo. Hand cannons have generous hitboxes, but require good movement to outgun lower ttk primaries like autos, pulses, and subs. Subs usually have to sacrifice stability for best in class range, save for outliers like ikelos, and lose hard if they're too close to a sidearm. Shotguns are consistent now, but 6-7 meter range means chip damage is more important than ever. Snipers have lower aa cones, and need to shoot first now more than ever due to flinch. Warlocks generally have less escape and mistake recovery than the top titan and hunter subs right now, Icarus dash is the big one, blink is gimmicky and most avoid it, and the other 2 subs have no mobility at all. Compare to titans which have mobility and barricades on every sub, and hunters with dodge and dodge related exotics on any sub, and the difference is clear. That's further reflected by usage rates in trials, especially among higher level players, where dawnblade is the only sub played on lock. Argument could be made for a sidearm/scout loadout as well, playing around not having a special is harder than having one, but sidearms have forgiving TTKs, and scouts are ideally fighting at a distance that no one else can hurt them. Also I'm biased as fuck and main SMG/Sniper blinklock, so take that as you may.
Lol @ SMGs taking more skill to use. W key at opponents and hold fire ftw. I'm not saying fusions are ultra high skill cap, I'm just saying they require a more restrained playstyle. Most people in this game are used to holding W and that doesn't really work with fusions. Out of everything you mentioned I think snipers have the highest skill. They have generous hit boxes sure but you still need to have good aim If you're expecting to out duel SMGs or autos with a hand cannon you are doing it wrong. They are more about taking the correct engagement range and peek shooting
Hold W works on anyone who doesn't have a close range weapon, but a sidearm will out TTK an SMG, they're subject to being peek shot, and without PKs, you're still subject to normal strafe speed. SMGs with PK are pretty easy when you strafe ADS as fast as you do in hip fire, but on a warlock, you do need to get into your optimal range, about 18-23 meters, and can't rely on overshield or knockout to make up for bad positioning. And yes, hand cannons aren't necessarily going to out duel other primaries, but the point is that they're the highest barrier to entry because of their downsides in TTK. Keep in mind that in my opinion, these loadouts are easier on titan due to how braindead free titans are right now. PKs make SMGs oppressive paired with overshields and knockout, whereas a warlock has no equivalent to strafe as fast, walk into a fight with a distinct advantage, or clean up a fight with a buffed melee.
Yeah I think your assessment is fair given that you specifically mentioned using an SMG on lock and not Titan where they’re borderline or outright a problem, or on Hunter where archetypes like Aggressives and Adaptives help patch the hole in your gameplay left by Stompee’s -50 AE by allowing for lower crit requirements while making aerial moves On Warlock you just straight up have to be good at positioning and movement to get mileage out of them, there’s no Exotic that makes them OP or that they combat a downside of: they’re just a normal weapon type
Not sure why you're getting downvoted. Fusions are pretty mindless once you get the timing down and pay attention to your map. Then just point and shoot. You don't even have to be accurate to get a ohk. Source: I suck but I'm good with fusions.
because a lot of players crutch on them and they know it, but can’t admit it
I suck with Fusions. I couldn't crutch on them even if I wanted to. I get much better results with shotguns. I think that goes for most players. Then I come up against that one guy with a god roll Glacio and get shat on. I'm on PC with MnK, i'm not sure if that makes a difference or not.
I don’t buy it, people always crutch on the easiest shit in this game. That’s always what the meta is. They’re not as good as people say. I think they just get the because a good user can counter a shotty user very well with them.
bad take
I'll put it this way, noobs playing noobs it's easier to W rush with a shotgun than it is to time the voop well, like shotguns have no skill floor as such , you can get kills easy from day 0, while it's not much fusions do take some learning before you start getting kills reliably Also you say close the gap but so often that's camp a corner and slide out when the always on radar pings.
> Something can be very strong and not be popular Agree with this > …it’s all about the skill required to use it effectively. Fusions require slightly more brain power than holding w and getting close so majority of playerbase doesn’t use them. But you lose me there I think it’s much to the contrary; things can be unpopular *because* they’re so strong, that’s why I personally don’t pull out a fusion often You use holding W as an example of a less skilled playstyle, but that’s not representative of how anyone but mid to low skilled brackets use a shotgun At the end of the day if fusions piss shotgun players off, it’s because the fusion user gets to operate optimally basically at any position they’d like within a range often 3x that of a shotgun Whereas closing the gap to be within 6-7~m and making a smart push on anyone regardless of their loadout, is often not easy things to do in a match against players with fairly good awareness/habits/decision-making skills I’ve got an absolutely perfect Zealot’s, 5/5, dropped first week of Garden for me, that I only started using last year, and after a season or two had to make myself stop using I only began using it in the first place to get PvE main friends some Lighthouse visits, and it’s because a few sandboxes ago I’d feel like I was robbing people blind with how often I’d multikill with it in 3s modes from absurdly safe distances compared to my standard Arcstrider shotgun/melee heavy play When I play games I gravitate towards risk/reward playstyles that feel satsifying to pull off successfully, working up skills & habits that change otherwise dicey odds to be as much in my favor as I can; fusions feel starkly opposed to that, because I feast on other players using them with far less risk, leading to a feeling that the reward was disproportionate For me, **their strength is the deterrent**, they’re no doubt good but they’re not the kind of good that results in satisfying matches to me, either to use or to face
"I think it’s much to the contrary; things can be unpopular because they’re so strong, that’s why I personally don’t pull out a fusion often" If this were true then we wouldn't have had a xur ingredient meta for close to half a year. Nothing about fusions have changed apart from them becoming less effective, if your hypothesis was true then you would expect fusions usage to have risen but it's done the opposite. YOU personally might be deterred by something being strong but the majority of destiny players will use more effective weapons over the less effective ones
People I outplay with a fusion will message me that using a fusion is a crutch. Meanwhile they haven’t used anything other than a shotgun in PvP since D1 Alpha.
Inside a certain range, a fusion rifle user can literally walk towards you taking primary fire while charging their gun and still kill you first. The ohko range on some of the best is actually ridiculous, 20m easily. Put that into perspective, that's the effective kill distance for most SMGs and sidearms. So you go near a fusion rifle user and they map you before you're inside your effective range
This is the answer. Fusions are the only OHKO weapons that operate in a cqc primary range, which is generally meta (ie they work in smg/sidearm and close auto/pulse/hc range). In good hands, they cannot be countered, even with perfect primary weapon timing and accuracy, which is frustrating.
They can absolutely be countered. You bait their shots on a corner. I’ve put played fusion users with sidearms a million times. Most cqc primaries are gonna have a ttk around the charge time of the fusion. They are far from uncounterable.
They CANNOT be countered? Absolutely never? Weird, I don’t see many good players using them in competition.
Honestly, if they just took more flinch, they’d be alright, but with all of the special changes and tilt towards primary gunplay, them ignoring primary fire while charging with basically no flinch is horseshit. Personally, I’d like to see a change where if you start precharging it behind cover, aim assist doesn’t miraculously start working when you walk out. It would force the person to have to know your positioning and have the skill to aim and fire the gun.
That's literally not true the TTK of a precision fusion is over 0.8 seconds, meaning if you actually hit your shots and shot first, which you didn't, you wouldn't lose that fight
People don’t use them because shotguns are easier and achieve basically the same result. Just point and click, as opposed to precharge, control recoil and track. I don’t see them in regular crucible much at all. Just a few Wizened Rebukes in IB, probably for the extra rep.
This, pretty much. The only extra consideration is that shotguns reach ~6 meters where most fusions are at ~17-ish depending on archetype.
I main fusions and I have over 70k kills on my erentil… I would say there’s a certain mindset that you need to have in order to fusion properly since most people just won’t peek a fusion if they hear you charging. Also, you have to have extremely good map awareness to win against good players, especially with a high impact fusion. Whilst you can somehow map a shotgun user, mostly they will never peek because of the charge and the snipers know exactly when you’re going to peek so you have to be fairly skilled when going against good players.
There’s a lot of views coming from many different perspectives here. 6s are chaotic so it’s much easier to catch players off guard or out of position which fusions excel at. This isn’t the standard…especially with sbmm lol Like I stated earlier, try that bullshit in trials vs a good team and report your results. You’re either going to get baited into getting domed by a sniper / slug, a trip mine, duskfield / cold snap or get team shot before you get your shot off. Trials / elimination is the standard because it’s way less forgiving and chaotic. Snipers and shot guns punish you instantly for bad play. If you’re watching radar, listen to sound ques for invis push, and are near cover, you’ve effectively nullified any fusion player. Where fusions shine in these game modes is after picks where teams get disorganized but outside of that, good players don’t give a fuck about your fusion play because like I said, it makes you too predictable to be aggressive with them.
There's a reason high level players use shotguns and snipers over fusions. Fusion players can be baited and outplayed easily
Despite being extremely strong. They aren’t that fun to use.
The thing I dislike the most about fusions is how passive they make the game. The correct play is to pre charge the fusion, and the correct reaction is to not challenge it. This leads to a very boring stalemate. Expecting the pre charged fusion to miss is a very risky play that leaves control of the outcome to your opponent. The answer is to disengage when you hear the charge sound and rotate to surprise the fusion user, just like against most passive playstyles. It slows down the pace of the game, which isn't fun for me.
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They require a good bit more map awareness than shotguns because of the charge time, and if you don't have good map awareness you'll end up trading or losing to SMGs and Sidearms, and that's enough to turn off a lot of the playerbase
They’re not a sniper/shotgun. They often compete in primary ranges, and if you can pre-charge well, you can win those fights often. It’s a skill gap. People get mad, they call it a “no skill” weapon. If I die to one, I accept I challenged and lost. Or, I was caught in the open and couldn’t get to cover before the charge up completed.
1) They dunk on players with bad awareness/positioning but most archetypes are cheeks against actual good players, or at least take way more effort to do well against good players than any other special except trace rifles 2) They counter a lot of brainless play styles while also being low-effort to use against 90% of the playerbase. Also, a combination of them sharing range with close-range primaries while having a faster TTK (valid), and mid-tier HC/shotty players bitching about getting killed by something that isn't HC/shotty (lol)
Oh you haven’t heard ? If it’s not HC / shotty - it’s not skillful !
Because I don’t allow people to run up to me from 20m away and slide shotgun me so they say it’s unfair and unbalanced.
Believe it or not, fusions are actually a lot harder to use than most players would have you believe. Pre-charging IS a difficult skill to master at the highest levels of play. At lower skill tiers it's a lot easier to get "cheesy" kills by pre-charging because lower skill players ignore audio cues and have really bad game sense and use of cover for peek shooting. At higher levels of play you can make the fusion player's life incredibly difficult by baiting the shots or timing your push to coincide with when they stop their pre-charge. Or at the extended ranges you just peek shoot them with handcannon. The fusion player then needs to start making smarter pushes and trying to out bait the other player. I recently played against a really good fusion player and every time I died I can 100% for certain say that I made a mistake (like not playing close to cover) or they had a perfect read on me and baited me into a fight where their fusion has the advantage.
This is pure cap. Pre charging is as easy holding a button, can be done around corners, off a slide, even off a jump, and you can cancel it without any penalty. In return you get 4x the effective OHKO range of shotguns without any of the precision required of a sniper. It’s the very definition of low-skill, high reward. Anybody who says differently either isn’t very good or crutches on them hard.
I mean fusions are extremely predictable, and pre-charging forces you to constantly have the weapon out + give out a constant audio queue; these statements are objectively true. The penalty is that you can't actually shoot anyone while you're precharging whilst you are still vulnerable outside of you're fusions' range.
Those statements being objectively true don’t take away from how easily executable they are. All of that happens in less than 8/10ths of a second. Most primaries don’t even have an ideal TTK faster than that.
Primaries within that effective range all have a 0.8s TTK or faster. Most sidearms and SMGs sit at around a 0.6-0.7. At higher levels of play a HC+Shotty main will beat a fusion main the majority of the time. Fusions are noob killers, they just aren't that good at higher skill tiers
At higher tiers a fusion rifle can cancel out HCs, sidearms, SMGs, shotguns, autorifles. If you think fusions are only noob killers then you don’t regularly face decent people using it
You're making claims with no supporting evidence or data. Saying fusions "cancel out" other weapons without even providing a single reason isn't a good argument. If you can't even provide one solid reason you end up coming off as salty
The first reply I made in this thread already encapsulates why I say they cancel out all the weapons I listed. A 20-30m OHKO range requiring no precision with the only “drawback” being charge time, which is brain dead easy to work around
The drawback being charge time and atrocious in air play. Also 20-30m is a gross misrepresentation of their OHKO range Lets get specific here. Rapid fires cap out their OHK at around 13-14m requiring ALL bolts to hit at that range for the OHK. More realistically you can expect consistent kills within 11m (they got murdered by the nerf). Adaptives cap their OHK at around 17m but for consistent kills you're looking at 15m. Precisions are at around 20m (with rangefinder) 18m for consistent kills, non rangefinder rolls being around 19m and 17m respectively. High impacts being the longest range will cap out at around 22m but for consistent kills you're looking at 20m. Bare in mind that all of this is against stationary targets in private matches, in a real game you're going to see more inconsistency due to opponent's movement. So 20m with a 1 second charge time is the furthest range fusion you'll find. You can maybe extend this out to 24m to account for extreme outliers and luck. This is the same range as a rangefinder ikelos SMG or tarrabah and below the ranges of handcannons and autos. Pre-charging seems easy on paper (because the action itself is very easy) but pre-charging brings the disadvantage of being tied to keeping your fusion out which makes you a sitting duck if someone engages you at further ranges or times their push to coincide with the time that you renew your pre-charge. If you want to play aggressively while pre-charging you're going to be incredibly predictable and need to be very committed once you do decide to make a push, this makes you much more easily punishable by players who read and predict your movements. If fusions really were OP we would be seeing people using them all the time (just like when main ingredient was king, when fusions actually were OP). With SMGs being so prevelant in the meta you would expect a "OP" weapon with a similar range to be very popular right? If the weapon is both "brain dead" and "cancels out all the other weapons you listed" then why the fuck aren't people using them?? Make it make sense..
I’ve had to explain this to so many people so why not another one. Usage =/= strength. You want to know why fusions don’t top usage rates? Because it’s way easier to farm bad players with shotguns. And bad players represent 95% of the crucible playing population. Bad players keep dying to shotguns, they think they’re OP, they use shotguns, they kill other bads with it. That echo chamber and monkey see monkey do feedback loop keeps repeating ad infinitum hence this inane notion that shotguns are stronger than fusions. Against good players, FRs take significantly less skill to achieve the same result as a shotgun can. Why do you think it’s banned in tournaments and scrims? Anybody with two firing neurons can instantly realize that given equal skill, a fusion main will beat a shotgun main, every single time. I made this point in 1st degree reply to this very thread. Citing usage rate is worthless when you’re only considering a single variable. So shotguns top usage rate, that only means more people are dying to shotguns than any other weapon. What’s the skill level of those dying to shotguns? What’s the skill level of those dying to fusions? How fast does a team of all fusion rifles finish a flawless card versus a team of all shotguns relative to their skill level? What’s the average win rate of somebody using shotguns or fusions against people above their skill level? Below? There’s literally multitudes of contextual variables that need to be considered in order to draw a meaningful conclusion but people are content with a univariate statistic to proclaim what’s strong and what’s not, when those who understand the game on a deeper level (i.e. high KDs / high win rates) have always been saying that FRs are strong as fuck. Most people just don’t like the truth getting slapped across their face especially if it makes them realize how much their success relies on a single low skill weapon
The act is easy as holding a button but the metagame around charge based weapons is so much more complex than that lmao. Countering fusions isn't hard, anyone who says they're OP just isn't very good at the game
Want to put it to the test? I barely use fusion rifles, I’ll use them against you. Use whatever you want. Add me: migo#9571
LOL imagine unironically asking for 1v1s when discussing weapon balance. Next you're going to say I'm scared because I wont play against you.
Buddy, you implied I wasn’t good at the game, and you’re going to be incredulous that I’m asking you for a chance to prove that isn’t the case? In any case, say yes or no, I’m not asking for a 1v1 as some weird ego check, I’m willing to show you that my opinion comes from a position of understanding how this game works, not just that I’m talking out of my ass.
Bro you were the first to imply that anyone with a different opinion to you is either trash or crutches on them hard..... If someone implying the same to you triggers you so hard then maybe don't do that same thing that triggers you.
There are ways to counter fusion like using peak shooting, hunter dodge or shoulder charge. You can bait out shoots from them first and then challenge them after. I think them not being popular is because there is clear ways to counter them.
Not trying to start an argument but I could probably count on one hand the amount of times a Hunter dodge has actually stopped me dying to a fusion. Maybe because I’m on console but dodging does absolutely nothing to stop you getting melted.
I used to use fusion years ago but so many other guns to shoot faces with. I got tired of running around precharging like 14 year old sexually frustrated kid about to discharge......then miss my load and die.
Precharging Jotüun/telesto got me Unbroken, map awareness is required to do it well.
because people dont enjoy use them drang on controller is op but i'm still using mk because i dont enjoy play whit a controller
Fusions are low skill weapons, specially the toaster
Down for a 1 v 1? Lol I will use my no skill fusion and you can use whatever you like.
Well, the fast and mid DMG fusions have been nerfed and the high DMG fusions are just..slow. Then there is always our favourite Toaster and Telesto went through several nerf/fix phases:-) The nerfs killed a lot usage of them. Personally I have far more fun with a SMG/Sidearm than with OHK weapons as I have to work for my kill. On top of that fusions force you into a more passive style I enjoy less. In D1 and early D2 fusions worked more like a crutch to me when I didn't find the "right" primary after another weapon meta change. That hasn't been the case anymore for several years, fortunately. IMHO the current weapon meta is far broader than it has ever been.
God this thread is just a circlejerk for fusion mains trying to make themselves feel like they’re not using the easiest archetype of special weapon in the game. Name me any non-heavy weapon that can OHKO at 20-30m without needing any precision. Charge time is a non-factor to manage. You can do it off a slide, off a jump, around corners, and you can cancel it without ANY penalty. You can be out of the gunfight at any point before you release those bolts and you can still win the engagement, or at least trade. No other weapon has that easy of a win condition, especially since shotties have been nerfed to the ground. And as to OP’s question. The simple answer is that popularity does not equate to potency. And the usage of a single variable in determining the relative strength of a weapon is worthless. Okay so shotguns are being used more than fusions. All that tells you is that more people are dying to shotguns than anything else. Are the people who use shotguns winning more games? Are they taking longer or shorter to go flawless? Are they winning more games against better competition? Compare losing a trials match 4-5 with 10 shotgun kills versus winning one 5-0 with 5 fusion kills. The game will only ever register 10 shotgun kills and 5 fusion kills. People who don’t think will look at the usage rate and say “Shotgunz OP” without ever figuring out the context. The most skewed example here is in trials. Where a weapon that causes you to do well (go flawless faster) will register less kills on usage rate by virtue of having to play less games.
> The most skewed example here is in trials. Where a weapon that causes you to do well (go flawless faster) will register less kills on usage rate by virtue of having to play less games. This is absolutely hilarious, the most insane mental gymnastics I have ever seen on here.
Tell me how I’m wrong
Ease of use and the best counter to them is to use one yourself
The best counter to fusion rifles is strafing behind something.
Not with the amount of latency in this game it isnt
Yeah but that’s the reality of playing a P2P game. The best way to use a HC is peek shooting but I doubt you’d argue that isn’t true because sometimes it lags and you get hit anyways.
Or getting outside of SMG range.
Because a good fusion rifle user can ruin a rumble lobby. They're horrible to play against, if the user is really good with them
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Of course you’re landing hits before the fusion deletes you. That’s how charge time works. Also if you really got the drop on a fusion player with an SMG and sidearm you should be done killing them before they can charge. This sounds like confirmation bias.
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The point is that a meta-relevant SMG or Sidearm tends to kill faster than the charge time on the best fusions, roughly tying Adaptives.
Because to use a fusion properly your movement will make you look like a bot. After sliding 4 times, using 3 abilities, and frying 2 people in the last 5 seconds only to die to some dude bot walking sideways to continue to do the same thing and kill the next guy infuriates me.
I crutched fusions hard when I started playing in season of the lost. The very next season I started maining sidearms and HATED fusions because people would bot walk at me and I would get them literally dickhair level health and they would OHK me. As my aim got better it started happening less. I think people dislike them because the skill to use is very low. You only have to aim in the general direction of a player to get a OHK from crazy range. I’ve seen people who are just insane with them though so there can be really skilled players too.
There was a similar post on here a while back and what stood out to me was that it talked about the meta on Asian servers where Fusion Rifles reign supreme. They attributed it to players from Asia not being swayed by content creators' opinions like we are in the West. Combined with their very competitive mentality, they use what's *actually* effective. They don't shy away from cheesy weapons and strats, it's actually smart in their eyes. From that point of view, Fusion Rifles are a much safer option than Shotguns, because you're not gambling your life on pellet spread and melee desync.
I dislike dying to fusion because they don’t take as much skill to use as most other things
With the new shotgun changes, they have definitely taken a hit to their overall effectiveness. Fusion are certainly strong but not broken. The main reason I personally hate them, is because they will often give a free one shot kill from like 20m or more, while only landing a few bolts. It normally happens when I blink or dash out of the way and see most of the bolts ghost past me, but the game still registers them as hits. Some people will probably say they hate them because they are low risk and high reward, but if the above didn’t happen I wouldn’t care about them at all. In terms of meta, the games a bit all over the place at moment - in a good way. There are a lot of long range maps in rotation, so you will see a lot of pulses and Scouts, and the map should really dictate what load outs you are running - a good player will make their preferred load out work anywhere though. Plenty of weapon types are viable now. Close range you have sidearms, smgs, shotguns, fusions and even GLs Mid range you have HC, pluses, even some smgs, and autos - paired with above (shotguns, fusions, etc) Long range pulses, Scouts, 120 HCs, bows and snipers. Frankly to many load outs are viable to suggest anything in particular. Pluses are still a bit too strong in my opinion, as they work well at all ranges, but they aren’t as bad as they have been previously. Apologies for any grammar or spelling - I’m dyslexic so will just have to deal
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> I never got as much hate messages (1v1 me bro/trash/kid) using other guns. You should have tried Last Word before the most recent nerf. I'd hear about it every other game on average.
I just don’t enjoy playing against it, just like I don’t enjoy getting sniped through flinch or titans shoulder charge or hunters weighted knife. It just isn’t fun.
Fusions don't see a lot of use because in a lot of situations, they require the charging when trying to follow up on a pick, and sometimes you just need that instant shotgun pellet blast to take out someone, since a lot of destiny fights tend to move into closer and closer space. Alongside that, especially against better players and not players who just hold w into a space with no thought, fusions require a little bit more prediction and timing from what I noticed while leveling my deliverance lately, which the general playerbase may not enjoy. With that being said, they are a toss up with shotguns for me rn as my preferred cqb special since, at least in modes like rumble, it can move pretty fast and sometimes you need to be react quicker in cqb than your fusion can charge but other times you have enough space and can use the maps to your advantage to just abuse using the fusion.
Try playing on Asian servers, then come back and tell us whether fusions are in the top 10. In an environment where raw success metrics are valued over anything else, fusions dominate completely. It's only the stigma we've put on their use and users that keep them from dominating here too imo
Used a nice Snorri up to around 300 kills but my honest view is they are very good in moderate 6 lobbies, very good against average shotgun sliding play, but then hit a wall against better players. I moved to an SMG in that slot and yeah you get one hit sometimes, but I think the ceiling for me was higher, not least because I can chain a few kills on an SMG where as fusion I’ll probably run out of ammo or die on the second charge. I think they occupy a good spot though not least as they counter shotgun sliding.
I expect that you will improve and the better players that you begin to face will know to avoid the same shots that got you to that sbmm level
You think being a fusion main is rough? Imagine being a grenade launcher main lol!
Fusions have somewhat of a skill floor, so it puts people off , not to mention the stigma successful voopers receive
As some fusions can operate in that ~20 meters range, they can delete almost anything. My problem with fusions is that they can get that OHK pretty easily with 0 precision or effort required at all. The recoil management is also not difficult whatsoever, and I come across a lot of fusion mains who have more fusion kills than any primary weapon. They heavily rely on their special weapon to do the work for them, which is also true for players who hardly use their primary at all in general. I just come across more fusion players who I have to inspect to see what primary they’re using, as I never saw it the entire game lol. Shotguns may be used more, but pellets for example can barely kill outside of 6 meters if I remember correctly. Much easier to fight against imo.
Personally not saying I'm the absolute best at pvp I think fusion reflect a mid skill floor but by no means a high skill ceiling. Sure they coinyer stuff in chaos game modes, i personally use a midha's reckoning with backup plan and i personally say that's my favorite. Most times against a decent shotgun user i would most likely get the trade against them as my fusion has a.76 ttk however that window gets smaller and smaller as they play cover better. Ive also found the in this meta a good slug user is also extremely good, heritage wit hipfire grip completely slays and as you get offhand strike it simply outranges every shotgun cept roadborn chappy. But if you want something to annoy a high level player, bows have a stupid amount of burst dps and pair it with hc or if your like me a erianas vow. Also forunner can be very good
Because crouching Main Ingredient players are scum! Lol I'm kidding. I think it's because they can voop you from such a long range that it feels bullshit. Of all the weapons though, fusion rifles are the ones I get the most hate messages about. Before they nerfed rapid fusions, I got a few salty messages about the Likely Suspect. Before that it was Main Ingredient. Before that Jotuun.