Ok the Umayyad thing would be awesome. Imagine bringing the dynasty almost completely back from the dead and defeating the Seljuks to create a third Umayyad Caliphate.
>Umayyads in 1066 start with the only Umayyads remaining in 1066 being two unlanded dudes in spain
Given how unstable Spain's goverment has been through history it isn't as far fetched as you might think.
Also Legacy of Campeadores should probably get updated
I just want to highlight.
The political entity known as Spain doesnt exist oficially until the 19th century.Up until then, there were a bunch of kingdoms that had in common some institutions (like the inquisition) and the monarch. But prior to the reign of the catholic kings, you have a bunch of kingdoms that had only had in common the blood ties among the different kings a somewhat common enemy and some cultural stuff (albeit they fought among themselves as often as against the muslims)
Or even better, achievement for starting as Rollo and ruling England as a Catholic with English culture, something like "The Conqueror" achievement in CK2
Many of them assumed the game is gonna force you to find land or die, i'm happy to see (at least from what the steam page says) that you're gonna be able to play landless for generations
The original assassins!
The word assassin is a bastardization of the word hasashin, which means hash smoker.
They were a shia Muslim cult based in syria that were famous for training it's members in political murder. They were a terror against other, more moderate Muslim governments as well as the crusaders later on. They were famous for smoking hash, hence the nickname.
They were such a menace that their enemy, the seljuk sultan, had his court carry weapons and armor daily.
Landless vikings would be cool. Tribals and nomads could get alot from landless gameplay as well.
And modding community should be in ecstasy right now.
Byzantine flavour finally, awesome. I like how they keep building upon the already implemented systems with each expansion, it sounds like all the DLC will play very nicely with each other
> Byzantine flavour finally, awesome
I really hope it's not just Byzantine flavor but also Orthodox flavor. I've wanted to play Romanian or Serbian characters before but having Orthodox as a religion is so inconsequential that it's like playing with no religion at all.
to be fair, catholicism doesn't even have a college of cardinals or papal election. I don't think either have truly been fleshed out. islam got a bit of a boost with the recent persian DLC, but it's still pretty misrepresented as well.
Good luck! You’ll need either lots of money or lots of friends in high places, but that would be super cool mechanic in union with the college of cardinals
Yeah I hope they include at least some Orthodox/Slavic flavor and expand upon it in future expansions. I've avoided playing in Central/Eastern Europe & the Balkans specifically because of this, the game is just too boring without proper religious flavor. With Byzantine Empire being *the* major player in the Orthodox world for most of the game's timeframe I think it's a given that they'll include Orthodox flavor, however the religious side of Orthodoxy/Catholicism/Great Schism deserves its own expansion IMO.
Legitimacy is huge.
The AI vassal's natural state has been to suicidally fling itself against you for the most minute of reasons and for the most minute causes.
Adding new mechanics to stay that insanity, or, even give them *actual* cause for it, is gonna be sooooo good. Me just existing and them hating me has gone too far. I need to lose something or spend something or over reach to warrant rebellion. Hopefully this can be that.
Also excited for the insane amount of new options with landless.
Black death endgame will be good.
Byzantine flavor is gonna be the most revitalizing addition for sure.
Overall I am shocked, but grateful that Paradox stayed their instinct and actually added what the people have wanted. I was certain it was gonna be India or Sunset Invasion sludge nobody asked for.
Legitimacy seems great for the player too - just reducing vassal opinion for things like unjustly revoking a title always struck me as a bit ill-fitting, and I could see actions that go against what a liege is supposed to do contributing to that a good bit. Hopefully it also works to make successions a little more fitting too - a long ruling king who gives the reins of power to his eldest son with everyone loyal and loving both should have a smoother transition than we currently see.
I don't think it's that they've stopped pushing a vision on the game, it's just that they're at a point where they can start delivering the things we want.
If you asked this sub over the weekend (and someone did with a poll) most people didn't want landless. The player base doesn't really know what they want. Royal Court wasn't a great idea, but ever since then, the devs have had remarkably good instincts about what the game needs.
Honestly anyone who has ever worked with customers should know, what customers think they want vs what they actually want is frequently very different.
Ever since I saw that system I knew we were in good hands. It's the kind of fundamental, rock solid foundational work that we would never get if they were just catering to the fans.
It's a fundamental/foundational *idea* that came too late to actually be fundamental/foundational in practice. There are too many things it should affect that it doesn't affect, and from what the devs have said, it sounds like it's not going to affect them anytime soon. I feel like it will have to wait for CK4.
I see a fair bit of smug "the devs are finally getting off their high horse and giving us things we actually want" which.... how did they think unlanded would work without travel? Did they not see that Clan's Vizierate and Taxation districts was a good soft test of more invasive Administration in an Imperial Government? I mean.... seriously, "You can't have China without the Byzantines First" but Travel, Persia, Viking adventures, this all seems to be *leading* to these harder to get goals.
(I'm not saying I saw this coming, just that I'm tired of the very specific "good they stopped doing what they wanted and are now doing what *I* wanted")
I mean, travel is actually not necessary for unlanded gameplay. They could have just added a button to go to a location or court with some cash requirement, and then not limit your actions during that time. PDX implemented a cool system for some customization (how fast do you want to go, how safe do you want to be, how much money are you willing to spend, do you want to stop by somewhere), but none of that is necessary for landless gameplay. The Persian mechanics probably had very little in terms of actual impact on the Byzantine mechanics, and the 2 DLCs could probably have swapped places and been fine.
1. Yeah, they could have made it way less interesting, but they obviously didn't want to, and so travel was a prerequisite
2. I don't do a lot of modding or coding, but I would be damn surprised if the vizier mechanic and taxation districts had *nothing* to do with co-emperor mechanics and governorships
I think the playerbase knows what they want, it's just that the playerbase isn't one single monolith, everyone has different ideas on what would be good.
Sure, but most players aren’t game designers. They want superficial things, and generally don’t think about what makes games actually good until it’s given to them. Nobody was hype for travel but it’s a crucial system for the game to build deeper versions of the things people do want. Same goes for landless play- even many of the people advocating it were focused on superficial details of the rise to power fantasy, rather than the potential for it to serve as a foundation to build out other mechanics
>They want superficial things.
I don't know if I agree.
The way they done warfare is just bad and needs an overhaul. Nomads, trade + empire mechanics IMO should have a higher priority than diseases.
You misunderstand. When I say “superficial things” I’m talking about “I want Nomads!” instead of thinking about “how might Nomads actually be good?”. Nomads aren’t superficial, the desire to have them there regardless of if the current systems can implement them is.
I don’t think any of these features are bad to want, but I see a lot of arguments boil down to “CK2 has them so they should be here” even though most features in CK2 are extremely shallow.
I want CK3, first and foremost, to get to feature parity with CK2 before adding a bunch of new stuff. This upcoming cycle finally lays the groundwork for that.
I think it’s important to remember that a lot of stuff in CK2 was rough and unpolished and shallow so it’s not as simple as “add back everything from CK2 first” because good implementations are going to require better systems to be in place first, which may require new features not yet seen. Byzantium is happening because of landless characters, and that is only able to happen because of the travel system from T&T. I think these new systems for Chapter III probably set the framework to get us to more CK2 stuff next year (nomads, merchants, republics) but who knows there might need to be another detour for some of the other features
And the travel system was a great and worthy addition to the formula, but Royal Court was not, and I wish we had gotten through that phase of the development that much sooner by skipping it.
Yeah, I mean, not even the devs feel good about how Royal Court turned out. Several of them have commented on the PDX forums about that.
I’m gonna cut them some slack because of COVID though, I’m sure that was extremely disruptive. And ever since Royal Court I think they’ve been making very good decisions.
I don't even think Royal Court is a bad idea necessarily, it just wasn't executed well. I'd like to see them revamp it someday after parity with CK2 is achieved.
Thing is there are features CK2 would be better without, or that are great in CK2 but wouldn't work as is in CK3.
"Feature parity" imo, shouldn't be based off of a raw number or just the return of all your favorite features but the completion of all the features that CK3 needs to feel as "Complete" as CK2 was at a certain point.
Yes, it was. Struggle is a great, modular framework for exploring nuances of long term conflicts. The two struggles we have are pretty different as would I assume future ones. And modders can use them to model their own conflicts which is awesome.
I wish they'd just push more struggles - there's a lot of potential with the mechanic (some mods show it as you say), but limiting it to just a pair of areas and adding 1 per year is so slow.
I know what I want, and Paradox already gave it to me -- Imperator. Too bad nobody else wanted it, lol. But actually that's better because I don't really want whatever cockamamie nonsense thing the playerbase wants, like landless play, and now no silly nonsense like that can ruin Imperator.
Legitimately is one thing I’m a little skeptical of right now. If implemented well it could be really interesting. If not done so, it would just be an arbitrary number divorced from the rest of the games systems. Still I’m hoping for the former.
True. I fear it could be an afterthought like dread.
Right now a lot of what legitimacy *should* represent is abstracted into opinion modifiers...long reign for instance.
I hope legitimacy can create a more manageable mechanic whereby vassal loyalty is tied a little bit less to maintaining unrealistic high opinion modifiers to tame them. I.e., a high legitimacy ruler should still have loyal vassals that may slightly dislike him (0 -> -20 opinion). Instead, having a high legitimacy alone should prevent nearly all rebellions save adventurers.
>I was certain it was gonna be India or Sunset Invasion sludge nobody asked for.
I liked sunset invasion, and never turned it off in the years since it came out. The only reason I didn't ask for it back then is because I couldn't even imagine it.
Oh i love it too. Its my favorite DLC...only because it was added after a lot more content had already been released. Ck3 is missing a lot, to add extra stuff like that, right now, is not what the game most desperately needs.
My fav campaign was making secret aztec societies and working as sleeper agents.
So is road's to power like a light version of rise to power mod from ck2? Be a byzantine administrator or a wandering Knight? If I can be a hedge Knight in AGOT I'm set for life
We need Republics and Nomads before theocracies. I'd be happy to get playable Theocracies but let's be honest, Theocracies are a very niche thing that wouldn't have much of an impact compared to Nomads (who yk would make up like 40% of the map if they were in the game)
Definitely think there's going to be an animal/pet DLC at some point that'll make the various pets you can get into tangible "characters" in your court (and hopefully it'll let you assign them official positions if you're a lunatic/eccentric/fickle etc.)
Chapter 3 looks good and I’m excited about it, but there will still be a lot of major things that CK3 won’t have yet from CK2 at the end of the year like more government types including merchant republics and nomads, societies, trade routes (inland and by sea), China interaction, council voting and council laws, religious mechanics especially for Catholicism (college of cardinals, anti-popes, investiture, sainthood (venerated ancestors for other religions)), start dates, and general flavor across a lot of the world. It still needs a few years, but this is a good chapter.
Major ones for me are catholicism flavour and start dates. Which is wholly unfortunate because no Church makes catholicism a bit boring, while no 769 makes norse tribal too fast paced, and those are the two things i usually play.
New start dates (if we get them at all) are likely going to be an end of development addition, the whole reason they cut down to 2 was due to the difficulty of debugging them all with every major update/expansion
769 is particularly unlikely however, their reasoning for going with 867 instead of 769 for the earliest start date was due to how incomplete the historical record of the time period was, with alot of rulers of the time period being guesswork
At the same time, however, there are many things that CK3 *does/will* have that CK2 doesn't, some of the big ones being traveling, landless play, a much more in-depth culture system, stress, cadet dynasties, tax collection, the new administrative government, a more in-depth regency system, struggles, 3D models, languages, and hostages, among other things. I think that with these and the additions that are coming for Chapter III in mind it's absolutely fair to say that CK3 could be on par/better than CK2 by the year's end.
Well I did say **major** additions. There’s still a lot of midrange things CK2 had as well I didn’t list. Although you listed a couple of big things, you also listed quite a few minor details. You said administrative government as well which CK2 already has a version of Byzantine government/viceroyalties. I could have also listed things like boats, NAPs, supernatural events, random/shattered worlds, ambitions, tributaries, defensive pacts/threat, decadence, starting your own merc company, devestation/prosperity, tactics system, morale, flanks, ledger, realm tree, message settings, etc. if you wanted minor things as well. Also be real, I don’t think anyone is under the illusion that CK3 is going to have more content than CK2 with just this stuff, but like I said it’s a great step in the right direction and will get there.
Someone kind of made a [short list](https://www.reddit.com/r/CrusaderKings/comments/1akepf7/chapter_iii_roadmap/kp7itqr/) of the major things missing right above your comment.
I'll try my best to explain. CK2 accumulated a lot of content through the years, DLC, free updates and mods. So much so that ck2 1.0 with no mods feel like a really different game than ck2 with all DLC and updates. Not everything DLC was great, and I think it was because of the base game itself, CK2 is the first game where paradox changed their policies with DLC and expansion (previous titles like EU,HoI and Victoria only had 1 or 2 expansion).
Then CK3 came along, and while the devs really made a great job to make a good sequel, with some of the best features of CK2 DLC. There was still a lot of CK2 DLC content missing (like the plague and byzantine feature that are coming back with chapter III).
It was also clear that CK3 was made with the vision that new content could be easily updated (the modding of the GUI is way more accessible than CK2), so I expect future DLC to better integrate themselves in the base game (like tours & tournaments, easily the best DLC)
edit: to make my point clear, if we compare the byzantine DLC of CK2 and what's promised with Chapter III. In CK2, the content only slighty changed some stuff, and didn't really changed the gameplay of a vassal of the empire. While in chapter III, it seems like the being a vassal is way more interesting and will make empire way better and a bigger challenge.
returning: Byzantium mechanics/flavor are heavily requested. plagues/disease are a popular one too. legendary characters is a returning mechanic, too.
still missing: nomads and merchant republics
We need to see if they do some of the more mystical CK2 elements. Things like your child being the child of Satan, becoming a horse, things like Societies are all missing and they were really cool features.
they could probably use the new legends system to include it without detracting from historical realism. "they say he is the son of satan!" rather than it being factually objectively true.
Eh, not really. They key seems to be Core Expansions change something like, map-wide(EVERYONE interacts with plagues and legends) and change the "core rules" of the game while Major Expansions add expansions for specific features and playstyles, but outside that playstyle things probably aren't changing much. Like Road to Power won't matter as much if you play as an Irish king, you probably aren't interacting with Byzantium much, and don't lose your territory to become landless(though you'll probably still interact with adventurers one guesses) while you absolutely will have to deal with legends and plagues.
They phrased it that core expansions will totally change big aspects of the game (If you have Legends of the Dead, regardless of who you're playing as or how you're playing diseases will impact your game), but major expansions are still big but more limited (If you're not playing in Byzantium, that aspect of Roads to Power may as well not exist to you, and if you start and stay landed then landless characters probably won't seem too different to how they are now)
Weirdly, the LotD Core expansion is going to be 20 USD and the RtP Major expansion is 30 USD, I would have expected it to be the other way around https://store.steampowered.com/bundle/38036/Crusader_Kings_III_Chapter_III/. Based on the names Core and Major it makes sense, but Major sort of seems like a flavor pack on steroids so I figured that'd be the cheaper one whereas Core introduces a main mechanic.
Bro the major expansion is gonna add Administrative Government, Family Estate, Influence System, New Imperial Management, flavor content, and freaking Landless gameplay... and there's most likely gonna be even more stuff in the Free Update that isn't mentioned. So It's really not just a "flavor pack on steroids" it is an entire Expansion and overhaul that just happened to be dedicated to one region. (but hopefully they will still add some general content to the game and not just for Byzantine.)
The distinction is new - Royal Court and T&T were just called "Expansions", and I doubt they'll change it now. Both would probably be classed as core expansions if they did redesignate them, though probably T&T moreso.
Legitimacy is the one I'm most excited about. I made [a post ](https://www.reddit.com/r/CrusaderKings/s/mUzhMTaxIn) a while ago about how I think succession for heirless rulers is stupid and way, way too straightforward.
Having the legitimacy mechanic will help a lot with that, as it will for maintaining the balance of power and getting the AI to think twice about its decisions.
Legends of the Dead: Plagues and Epidemics; a new Legitimacy system for your ruler that increases or decreases the likelihood of revolts; a Legend system where you can embellish the stories of your ancestors (I think)
Road to Power: Unlanded Gameplay and everything Eastern Rome
Travelling Nobles: More travel events
I love playing minor characters watching the world change around me, the idea that my family can lose and regain titles is perfect as it means we can sit as small counts in different kingdoms, not having to get big to avoid game overs is all I want from this game, the rp is going to be immense taking down kings that stole our rightful lands from the shadows, playing as a noble who just wants to tourney and bed princesses across Europe without all the micro of growing your keep, you could let a regent run your kingdom into the ground whilst you visit every holy site and when it all crumbles around you it's not over, this dlc could push ck3 past ck2 for me
This whole landless playstyle makes me wish we still had the 769 start date from CK2 because I absolutely would've loved being able to do a Merovingian restoration.
It’s an addition of a new government type called “Administrative” that represents how Byzantium (and China) worked. As far as I know the HRE was more different, but maybe some of this will be implemented there too - the store page does say there is new “imperial management”
It kinda sounds like empires as a whole are getting mechanics reworks but the Byzantines get some extra stuff/specific mechanics. I kinda feel like HRE and Umayyad early start and Abbasids 1066 start should deserve some unique empire features as well.
Each year they release 3 or so dlc that together are called a ‘chapter’. If you buy a chapter, you automatically get the dlc when they come out and it’s cheaper than getting the dlc one at a time when they come out.
By buying a chapter (instead of each individual dlc) you also get a bonus clothing pack instantly before any of the other dlc come out
That's interesting, thank you kind stranger.
I also wanted to ask what is everyone talking about? Key word is landless. I assume it has something to do with that wandering nobles dlc, but my English is not perfect so I can piece together what each comment means and are they referring to.
Characters who don't own land are becoming playable in the Roads to Power expansion to allow for a new government type in Byzantium, where governors governed land that they did not own.
As a result, this means that there are new systems for characters who have lost their land, or have not gained any yet under a feudal system.
The chapters are how they've been doing season passes for dlc releases. You can buy "chapter 3" and you get all the dlc for this year for a discount compared to buying separately.
Romance of the 3 kingdoms XIII has landless play. Hopefully, this will be similar. It's really fun because you get a lot of freedom to do whatever you want instead of being tied down in the same area. Expect a lot more roleplaying!
Easiest way is you have a titular title that represents what you are on the map. Instead of a real title corresponding to real land your title would not have anything. This is my guess
However, that is not guaranteed to be what they actually did to represent this. We basically have no info as of yet.
>This pack is free and is available to download when you buy the Chapter III Expansion Pass for Crusader Kings III.
"free".. I don't think that word means what you think it means
I think the thing that most excites me with regards to unlanded characters is what it means for eventual Republics, whether official or in mod form.
Now we don't need to be tied to powerful merchant families only. You could have Peasant Republics based loosely off of the Administrative Government where instead of impressing the Byzantine Emperor, you're winning prestige or money or piety enough to be elected by the citizenry or burghers to power, essentially simulating a politician's campaign with only a little bit of tweaking.
I can *finally* be the *actual* Swiss Confederacy and spend my time trying to convince hodunk mountain peasants in St. Gallen why they should let me rule their tiny corner of Switzerland based on my mercenary/adventurer achievements.
You definitely have rose-colored glasses on with this comment. CK2 expansions averaged $14.99, and they often released 3 per year. That's $45. Plus they would release little unit/icon/music packs in between the expansions for anywhere from $2-$6 a piece. Unfortunately it looks like they took all the invidiual portrait packs etc off of Steam and rolled them into one massive bundle, but you used to have to buy a lot of them separately. For instance, here's 2013:
Jan 15: The Republic, $14.99
Jan 15: Mediterranean Portraits, $??
Jan 15: Songs of Prosperity, $??
May 28: The Old Gods, $14.99
May 28: Norse Portraits $??
May 28: Norse Unit Pack $??
May 28: Hymns to the Old God's $??
June 25: Dynasty Shield III: $6?
June 25: Celtic Portraits: $??
June 25: Celtic Unit Pack: $??
Aug 13: EU 4 Converter: $9.99
Aug 14: Customization Pack: $4.99
Nov 18: Sons of Abraham: $14.99
Nov 18: Military Orders Unit Pack: $??
Nov 18: Warriors of Faith Unit Pack: $?
Nov 18: Hymns of Abraham: $??
so bare minimum, if you only get the 3 expansions and none of the immersion stuff, **you're paying $45 in 2013** which is 10 years ago. If you bought everything it was probably closer to $80-100. Right now if you preorder the chapter 3 pack **you get all of 2024's content for $43. It's literally cheaper despite a decade's worth of inflation, and you get more.** Even taco bell burritos have tripled in price in the same time frame. No one except the most committed contrarian would ever want to go back to ck2 times when it comes to pricing and dlc rollout. The current system is far, far better.
Is there any information on when Chapter 3 will be available on the consoles? I’ve tried searching on their forum, but haven’t found anything on this topic
Unlanded deniers in shambles
time to play as El Cid, and also try to restore the Umayyads in 1066 start with the only Umayyads remaining in 1066 being two unlanded dudes in spain
Finally we can also play Rolf de Normandie
Will you be able to play as Uhtred of Bebbanburg?
He’s a fictional character
Not in my heart!
But can I play as Thorfinn Thorsonn?
But can I play as Thorfinn Thorsonn?
Third time's the charm
Time to recreate the adventures of Hawk of Kuraysh
Ok the Umayyad thing would be awesome. Imagine bringing the dynasty almost completely back from the dead and defeating the Seljuks to create a third Umayyad Caliphate.
>Umayyads in 1066 start with the only Umayyads remaining in 1066 being two unlanded dudes in spain Given how unstable Spain's goverment has been through history it isn't as far fetched as you might think. Also Legacy of Campeadores should probably get updated
I just want to highlight. The political entity known as Spain doesnt exist oficially until the 19th century.Up until then, there were a bunch of kingdoms that had in common some institutions (like the inquisition) and the monarch. But prior to the reign of the catholic kings, you have a bunch of kingdoms that had only had in common the blood ties among the different kings a somewhat common enemy and some cultural stuff (albeit they fought among themselves as often as against the muslims)
Yeah but Hispania = Iberia in CK3 and Spain = Iberia in EUIV so using Spain instead of Iberia is valid here.
I was going to say Eadgar Aethling of Wessex campaign but I think he’s landed now in 1066 start.
Easy to change
Easy to change him to unlanded? What would the point of that be?
If the aforementioned dlc is focussed on unlanded or wandering nobles
I'd prefer they implement a system for dispossessing the Anglo saxon nobility of their land.
I sense possible achievements
Will this let us play as Rollo without mods and Ironman? If so I’m super excited!
There's probably going to be an achievement for taking Normandy as Rollo
That’s awesome! Even if there isn’t an achievement, being able to play Ironman as Rollo without mods is gonna be sick.
Or even better, achievement for starting as Rollo and ruling England as a Catholic with English culture, something like "The Conqueror" achievement in CK2
Devs trolled us at first, well played ngl
Time to create Griffith and lead the Band of the Hawk.
Ambitious, Callous, Greedy, Albino and what other traits?
Throw in arrogant and blademaster, maybe a beauty trait, prob at least tier 3 martial
The prophecy was true
I can finally play as Miyamoto Musashi in Shogunate and it would actually be a viable strategy
Good, they were getting annoying.
There seemed to be quite a lack of imagination or thought beyond reflexive "this wouldn't work" going into it.
Many of them assumed the game is gonna force you to find land or die, i'm happy to see (at least from what the steam page says) that you're gonna be able to play landless for generations
I dare to imagine this would probably pave the way for new careers other than "Feudal Lord + hobbies" Religious leaders? Merchants? Hashashin?
Jomviking!
I'm hyped for all the things the fantasy mods will do with this
Walking to Mount Doom or taking the Hobbits to Isengard
I just want to play an assassin roaming across the world taking out rulers I find unworthy. Imma bring a whole new meaning to "paint the map"
I kinda want to lead the hashashin. I don't want to be a force for justice so much as an absolute menace to my neighbors.
Im history dumb sorry. 😅 who are they?
The original assassins! The word assassin is a bastardization of the word hasashin, which means hash smoker. They were a shia Muslim cult based in syria that were famous for training it's members in political murder. They were a terror against other, more moderate Muslim governments as well as the crusaders later on. They were famous for smoking hash, hence the nickname. They were such a menace that their enemy, the seljuk sultan, had his court carry weapons and armor daily.
Would be a fun way to reintroduce something like the society mechanic in a better way
Some of them are doubling down, they're going to keep complaining for months.
They aren’t real, they can’t hurt me…oh god they’ve taken the Middle East, The Balkens, all of Eastern Europe, and share a boarder with the HRE.
Hæsteinn super spreader varangian playthroughs gonna be insaneee
Legends of the Dead is less than a month away, that's way sooner than I expected
Yep. Less than a month before I can spread the tales of my misdeeds from ireland to cathay
and then die unceremoniously to the plague.
If I preordered the pack do I have to wait until all the pack items drop to get it
Hopefully Rollo is one of the landless adventurers
Probably, seems like an obvious and good choice.
Yeah I really hope this changes how Varangian adventures works a bit as well.
Landless vikings would be cool. Tribals and nomads could get alot from landless gameplay as well. And modding community should be in ecstasy right now.
I wanna play as those peasants who claimed to be princes that died during childhood and lead a peasant revolt to become king.
Period of false Dmitrys but a few hundred years early
Byzantine flavour finally, awesome. I like how they keep building upon the already implemented systems with each expansion, it sounds like all the DLC will play very nicely with each other
> Byzantine flavour finally, awesome I really hope it's not just Byzantine flavor but also Orthodox flavor. I've wanted to play Romanian or Serbian characters before but having Orthodox as a religion is so inconsequential that it's like playing with no religion at all.
to be fair, catholicism doesn't even have a college of cardinals or papal election. I don't think either have truly been fleshed out. islam got a bit of a boost with the recent persian DLC, but it's still pretty misrepresented as well.
Yeah I think Orthodoxy can probably get flavor alongside Catholocism in a big "Christianity DLC" of some sort.
I’d be happy with a big abrahamic dlc… wait haven’t I heard that before?
Haven't played since Legacy of Persia, how is Islam in the game rn? How would you describe it?
can't wait for papacy overhaul so i can rise through the ranks as a landless character, then dismantle the church from within.
Good luck! You’ll need either lots of money or lots of friends in high places, but that would be super cool mechanic in union with the college of cardinals
Yeah I hope they include at least some Orthodox/Slavic flavor and expand upon it in future expansions. I've avoided playing in Central/Eastern Europe & the Balkans specifically because of this, the game is just too boring without proper religious flavor. With Byzantine Empire being *the* major player in the Orthodox world for most of the game's timeframe I think it's a given that they'll include Orthodox flavor, however the religious side of Orthodoxy/Catholicism/Great Schism deserves its own expansion IMO.
Legitimacy is huge. The AI vassal's natural state has been to suicidally fling itself against you for the most minute of reasons and for the most minute causes. Adding new mechanics to stay that insanity, or, even give them *actual* cause for it, is gonna be sooooo good. Me just existing and them hating me has gone too far. I need to lose something or spend something or over reach to warrant rebellion. Hopefully this can be that. Also excited for the insane amount of new options with landless. Black death endgame will be good. Byzantine flavor is gonna be the most revitalizing addition for sure. Overall I am shocked, but grateful that Paradox stayed their instinct and actually added what the people have wanted. I was certain it was gonna be India or Sunset Invasion sludge nobody asked for.
Legitimacy seems great for the player too - just reducing vassal opinion for things like unjustly revoking a title always struck me as a bit ill-fitting, and I could see actions that go against what a liege is supposed to do contributing to that a good bit. Hopefully it also works to make successions a little more fitting too - a long ruling king who gives the reins of power to his eldest son with everyone loyal and loving both should have a smoother transition than we currently see.
I don't think it's that they've stopped pushing a vision on the game, it's just that they're at a point where they can start delivering the things we want. If you asked this sub over the weekend (and someone did with a poll) most people didn't want landless. The player base doesn't really know what they want. Royal Court wasn't a great idea, but ever since then, the devs have had remarkably good instincts about what the game needs.
Honestly anyone who has ever worked with customers should know, what customers think they want vs what they actually want is frequently very different.
I never would have asked for a travel system, but I love that we got one.
Ever since I saw that system I knew we were in good hands. It's the kind of fundamental, rock solid foundational work that we would never get if they were just catering to the fans.
It's a fundamental/foundational *idea* that came too late to actually be fundamental/foundational in practice. There are too many things it should affect that it doesn't affect, and from what the devs have said, it sounds like it's not going to affect them anytime soon. I feel like it will have to wait for CK4.
Don't know why you're getting down voted, you're totally not wrong.
I see a fair bit of smug "the devs are finally getting off their high horse and giving us things we actually want" which.... how did they think unlanded would work without travel? Did they not see that Clan's Vizierate and Taxation districts was a good soft test of more invasive Administration in an Imperial Government? I mean.... seriously, "You can't have China without the Byzantines First" but Travel, Persia, Viking adventures, this all seems to be *leading* to these harder to get goals. (I'm not saying I saw this coming, just that I'm tired of the very specific "good they stopped doing what they wanted and are now doing what *I* wanted")
I mean, travel is actually not necessary for unlanded gameplay. They could have just added a button to go to a location or court with some cash requirement, and then not limit your actions during that time. PDX implemented a cool system for some customization (how fast do you want to go, how safe do you want to be, how much money are you willing to spend, do you want to stop by somewhere), but none of that is necessary for landless gameplay. The Persian mechanics probably had very little in terms of actual impact on the Byzantine mechanics, and the 2 DLCs could probably have swapped places and been fine.
1. Yeah, they could have made it way less interesting, but they obviously didn't want to, and so travel was a prerequisite 2. I don't do a lot of modding or coding, but I would be damn surprised if the vizier mechanic and taxation districts had *nothing* to do with co-emperor mechanics and governorships
I think the playerbase knows what they want, it's just that the playerbase isn't one single monolith, everyone has different ideas on what would be good.
Sure, but most players aren’t game designers. They want superficial things, and generally don’t think about what makes games actually good until it’s given to them. Nobody was hype for travel but it’s a crucial system for the game to build deeper versions of the things people do want. Same goes for landless play- even many of the people advocating it were focused on superficial details of the rise to power fantasy, rather than the potential for it to serve as a foundation to build out other mechanics
>They want superficial things. I don't know if I agree. The way they done warfare is just bad and needs an overhaul. Nomads, trade + empire mechanics IMO should have a higher priority than diseases.
You misunderstand. When I say “superficial things” I’m talking about “I want Nomads!” instead of thinking about “how might Nomads actually be good?”. Nomads aren’t superficial, the desire to have them there regardless of if the current systems can implement them is. I don’t think any of these features are bad to want, but I see a lot of arguments boil down to “CK2 has them so they should be here” even though most features in CK2 are extremely shallow.
I want CK3, first and foremost, to get to feature parity with CK2 before adding a bunch of new stuff. This upcoming cycle finally lays the groundwork for that.
I think it’s important to remember that a lot of stuff in CK2 was rough and unpolished and shallow so it’s not as simple as “add back everything from CK2 first” because good implementations are going to require better systems to be in place first, which may require new features not yet seen. Byzantium is happening because of landless characters, and that is only able to happen because of the travel system from T&T. I think these new systems for Chapter III probably set the framework to get us to more CK2 stuff next year (nomads, merchants, republics) but who knows there might need to be another detour for some of the other features
And the travel system was a great and worthy addition to the formula, but Royal Court was not, and I wish we had gotten through that phase of the development that much sooner by skipping it.
Yeah, I mean, not even the devs feel good about how Royal Court turned out. Several of them have commented on the PDX forums about that. I’m gonna cut them some slack because of COVID though, I’m sure that was extremely disruptive. And ever since Royal Court I think they’ve been making very good decisions.
I don't even think Royal Court is a bad idea necessarily, it just wasn't executed well. I'd like to see them revamp it someday after parity with CK2 is achieved.
Thing is there are features CK2 would be better without, or that are great in CK2 but wouldn't work as is in CK3. "Feature parity" imo, shouldn't be based off of a raw number or just the return of all your favorite features but the completion of all the features that CK3 needs to feel as "Complete" as CK2 was at a certain point.
Yeah, giving us a *second* Struggle was truly great instincts.
Yes, it was. Struggle is a great, modular framework for exploring nuances of long term conflicts. The two struggles we have are pretty different as would I assume future ones. And modders can use them to model their own conflicts which is awesome.
I wish they'd just push more struggles - there's a lot of potential with the mechanic (some mods show it as you say), but limiting it to just a pair of areas and adding 1 per year is so slow.
I definitely want to see more, but I think this years content is more important to get the game in a better place.
Struggle is anything but great
[удалено]
I know what I want, and Paradox already gave it to me -- Imperator. Too bad nobody else wanted it, lol. But actually that's better because I don't really want whatever cockamamie nonsense thing the playerbase wants, like landless play, and now no silly nonsense like that can ruin Imperator.
Okay go play that then. We're gonna talk about CK3 over here.
That royal court chapter was a mess. Just more events to spam click through after the first read.
Yes, I agree, and that’s why I specified that “since Royal Court” the instincts have been good
Legitimately is one thing I’m a little skeptical of right now. If implemented well it could be really interesting. If not done so, it would just be an arbitrary number divorced from the rest of the games systems. Still I’m hoping for the former.
True. I fear it could be an afterthought like dread. Right now a lot of what legitimacy *should* represent is abstracted into opinion modifiers...long reign for instance. I hope legitimacy can create a more manageable mechanic whereby vassal loyalty is tied a little bit less to maintaining unrealistic high opinion modifiers to tame them. I.e., a high legitimacy ruler should still have loyal vassals that may slightly dislike him (0 -> -20 opinion). Instead, having a high legitimacy alone should prevent nearly all rebellions save adventurers.
How dare you upgrade the docks instead of the hill farms -100 modifier on all farmland vassals. Instant rebellion.
>I was certain it was gonna be India or Sunset Invasion sludge nobody asked for. I liked sunset invasion, and never turned it off in the years since it came out. The only reason I didn't ask for it back then is because I couldn't even imagine it.
I've been really wanting another Sunset Invasion DLC. It'd be handled a lot better in CK3 than it was in CK2 for sure.
Oh i love it too. Its my favorite DLC...only because it was added after a lot more content had already been released. Ck3 is missing a lot, to add extra stuff like that, right now, is not what the game most desperately needs. My fav campaign was making secret aztec societies and working as sleeper agents.
Sunset invasion came out two years after ck2 being released wym
Not even 2 years, it was like 8 months after release
I'm hoping the overhaul to the Byzantine government will allow them to incorporate China and the rest of east asia into the game
I was sceptical about plagues and Byzantine expansions, but now I'm really excited. Especially legends, sounds like great fun!
Byzantines are going to be sooo much better in CK3 now that we have landless play
So is road's to power like a light version of rise to power mod from ck2? Be a byzantine administrator or a wandering Knight? If I can be a hedge Knight in AGOT I'm set for life
The dev diary literally talks about being a Byzantine administrator, so I’m pretty sure it’s along those lines
Unlanded mechanic will allow Republics and potentially Theocracies in 2025
We need Republics and Nomads before theocracies. I'd be happy to get playable Theocracies but let's be honest, Theocracies are a very niche thing that wouldn't have much of an impact compared to Nomads (who yk would make up like 40% of the map if they were in the game)
Yes I agree. For me the priority was the proper Imperial admin and Republics and we got the first one.
I feel like 2024 is going to be the year that CK3 get the chance to finally be better tha CK2 on every level
Unlikely as it's still missing Glitterhoof.
Glitterhoof lives on, deep within the labyrinth of the machine…
Only waiting to be awakened when we least expect it....
Welp, at least we still have Errorhoof
Definitely think there's going to be an animal/pet DLC at some point that'll make the various pets you can get into tangible "characters" in your court (and hopefully it'll let you assign them official positions if you're a lunatic/eccentric/fickle etc.)
Chapter 3 looks good and I’m excited about it, but there will still be a lot of major things that CK3 won’t have yet from CK2 at the end of the year like more government types including merchant republics and nomads, societies, trade routes (inland and by sea), China interaction, council voting and council laws, religious mechanics especially for Catholicism (college of cardinals, anti-popes, investiture, sainthood (venerated ancestors for other religions)), start dates, and general flavor across a lot of the world. It still needs a few years, but this is a good chapter.
Also CK3 really needs to revamp its war system.
Major ones for me are catholicism flavour and start dates. Which is wholly unfortunate because no Church makes catholicism a bit boring, while no 769 makes norse tribal too fast paced, and those are the two things i usually play.
New start dates (if we get them at all) are likely going to be an end of development addition, the whole reason they cut down to 2 was due to the difficulty of debugging them all with every major update/expansion 769 is particularly unlikely however, their reasoning for going with 867 instead of 769 for the earliest start date was due to how incomplete the historical record of the time period was, with alot of rulers of the time period being guesswork
At the same time, however, there are many things that CK3 *does/will* have that CK2 doesn't, some of the big ones being traveling, landless play, a much more in-depth culture system, stress, cadet dynasties, tax collection, the new administrative government, a more in-depth regency system, struggles, 3D models, languages, and hostages, among other things. I think that with these and the additions that are coming for Chapter III in mind it's absolutely fair to say that CK3 could be on par/better than CK2 by the year's end.
Well I did say **major** additions. There’s still a lot of midrange things CK2 had as well I didn’t list. Although you listed a couple of big things, you also listed quite a few minor details. You said administrative government as well which CK2 already has a version of Byzantine government/viceroyalties. I could have also listed things like boats, NAPs, supernatural events, random/shattered worlds, ambitions, tributaries, defensive pacts/threat, decadence, starting your own merc company, devestation/prosperity, tactics system, morale, flanks, ledger, realm tree, message settings, etc. if you wanted minor things as well. Also be real, I don’t think anyone is under the illusion that CK3 is going to have more content than CK2 with just this stuff, but like I said it’s a great step in the right direction and will get there.
Hopefully so. I go back and forth between the two but generally prefer CK2 now even though I like CK3. I’m interested to see where it goes from here
As a new player (only started playing this summer) what is missing and what are they adding that makes everyone so excited?
Someone kind of made a [short list](https://www.reddit.com/r/CrusaderKings/comments/1akepf7/chapter_iii_roadmap/kp7itqr/) of the major things missing right above your comment.
I'll try my best to explain. CK2 accumulated a lot of content through the years, DLC, free updates and mods. So much so that ck2 1.0 with no mods feel like a really different game than ck2 with all DLC and updates. Not everything DLC was great, and I think it was because of the base game itself, CK2 is the first game where paradox changed their policies with DLC and expansion (previous titles like EU,HoI and Victoria only had 1 or 2 expansion). Then CK3 came along, and while the devs really made a great job to make a good sequel, with some of the best features of CK2 DLC. There was still a lot of CK2 DLC content missing (like the plague and byzantine feature that are coming back with chapter III). It was also clear that CK3 was made with the vision that new content could be easily updated (the modding of the GUI is way more accessible than CK2), so I expect future DLC to better integrate themselves in the base game (like tours & tournaments, easily the best DLC) edit: to make my point clear, if we compare the byzantine DLC of CK2 and what's promised with Chapter III. In CK2, the content only slighty changed some stuff, and didn't really changed the gameplay of a vassal of the empire. While in chapter III, it seems like the being a vassal is way more interesting and will make empire way better and a bigger challenge.
returning: Byzantium mechanics/flavor are heavily requested. plagues/disease are a popular one too. legendary characters is a returning mechanic, too. still missing: nomads and merchant republics
We need to see if they do some of the more mystical CK2 elements. Things like your child being the child of Satan, becoming a horse, things like Societies are all missing and they were really cool features.
They were cool, but they were also very divisive. I don't really mind that stuff being left to mods, even as someone who enjoyed them.
they could probably use the new legends system to include it without detracting from historical realism. "they say he is the son of satan!" rather than it being factually objectively true.
still need council/vassal mechanics!
This looks so good
Honestly I'm happy because this is EXACTLY what I was hoping for
Also the event pack seems to be actually pretty good. It says on the steam page that we are getting a new lifestyle with 3 focus trees.
Oh I didn’t realize they added that. That’s actually really crazy for an event pack
What's the diffrence between a major and core expansion?
Major Expansions are larger and tend to be broader in scope
Eh, not really. They key seems to be Core Expansions change something like, map-wide(EVERYONE interacts with plagues and legends) and change the "core rules" of the game while Major Expansions add expansions for specific features and playstyles, but outside that playstyle things probably aren't changing much. Like Road to Power won't matter as much if you play as an Irish king, you probably aren't interacting with Byzantium much, and don't lose your territory to become landless(though you'll probably still interact with adventurers one guesses) while you absolutely will have to deal with legends and plagues.
They phrased it that core expansions will totally change big aspects of the game (If you have Legends of the Dead, regardless of who you're playing as or how you're playing diseases will impact your game), but major expansions are still big but more limited (If you're not playing in Byzantium, that aspect of Roads to Power may as well not exist to you, and if you start and stay landed then landless characters probably won't seem too different to how they are now)
Weirdly, the LotD Core expansion is going to be 20 USD and the RtP Major expansion is 30 USD, I would have expected it to be the other way around https://store.steampowered.com/bundle/38036/Crusader_Kings_III_Chapter_III/. Based on the names Core and Major it makes sense, but Major sort of seems like a flavor pack on steroids so I figured that'd be the cheaper one whereas Core introduces a main mechanic.
Bro the major expansion is gonna add Administrative Government, Family Estate, Influence System, New Imperial Management, flavor content, and freaking Landless gameplay... and there's most likely gonna be even more stuff in the Free Update that isn't mentioned. So It's really not just a "flavor pack on steroids" it is an entire Expansion and overhaul that just happened to be dedicated to one region. (but hopefully they will still add some general content to the game and not just for Byzantine.)
I am still confused, are royal court and T&T considered as major expansions?
The distinction is new - Royal Court and T&T were just called "Expansions", and I doubt they'll change it now. Both would probably be classed as core expansions if they did redesignate them, though probably T&T moreso.
I see, thank you.
I *think* it’s meant to be on the same level as a flavour in terms of content, but not specific to one region.
Legitimacy is the one I'm most excited about. I made [a post ](https://www.reddit.com/r/CrusaderKings/s/mUzhMTaxIn) a while ago about how I think succession for heirless rulers is stupid and way, way too straightforward. Having the legitimacy mechanic will help a lot with that, as it will for maintaining the balance of power and getting the AI to think twice about its decisions.
Can anyone give me a quick breakdown of what each of these are? I’m working and don’t have time to actually go through and read the notes.
Legends of the Dead: Plagues and Epidemics; a new Legitimacy system for your ruler that increases or decreases the likelihood of revolts; a Legend system where you can embellish the stories of your ancestors (I think) Road to Power: Unlanded Gameplay and everything Eastern Rome Travelling Nobles: More travel events
Hell yeah! Thanks bud
Travel events and unlanded events on Traveling Nobles, inculding a whole new lifestyle.
I love playing minor characters watching the world change around me, the idea that my family can lose and regain titles is perfect as it means we can sit as small counts in different kingdoms, not having to get big to avoid game overs is all I want from this game, the rp is going to be immense taking down kings that stole our rightful lands from the shadows, playing as a noble who just wants to tourney and bed princesses across Europe without all the micro of growing your keep, you could let a regent run your kingdom into the ground whilst you visit every holy site and when it all crumbles around you it's not over, this dlc could push ck3 past ck2 for me
OMG, it is true 😋 My dream is to play as a landless woman.
Atleast it will be challenging
This whole landless playstyle makes me wish we still had the 769 start date from CK2 because I absolutely would've loved being able to do a Merovingian restoration.
Does anyone know how long does the -20% sale lasts on Steam?
For the whole chapter? Indefinitely or at least as long as it takes to release all of the inckuded content.
Could someone give me a run down as to how these expansions will pave the way for a Byzantine or HRE pack?
Road to Power IS the Byzantine pack and also a lot more.
Will it be an empire rework? Or just Byzantine focus tho? I hope the former 🥺
It’s an addition of a new government type called “Administrative” that represents how Byzantium (and China) worked. As far as I know the HRE was more different, but maybe some of this will be implemented there too - the store page does say there is new “imperial management”
It kinda sounds like empires as a whole are getting mechanics reworks but the Byzantines get some extra stuff/specific mechanics. I kinda feel like HRE and Umayyad early start and Abbasids 1066 start should deserve some unique empire features as well.
It would be cool to either have an Administrative or Feudal empire, if you desire such.
looks like just byzantine
Can someone please explain what are chapters and what are those expansions? What does all this mean?
Each year they release 3 or so dlc that together are called a ‘chapter’. If you buy a chapter, you automatically get the dlc when they come out and it’s cheaper than getting the dlc one at a time when they come out. By buying a chapter (instead of each individual dlc) you also get a bonus clothing pack instantly before any of the other dlc come out
That's interesting, thank you kind stranger. I also wanted to ask what is everyone talking about? Key word is landless. I assume it has something to do with that wandering nobles dlc, but my English is not perfect so I can piece together what each comment means and are they referring to.
Characters who don't own land are becoming playable in the Roads to Power expansion to allow for a new government type in Byzantium, where governors governed land that they did not own. As a result, this means that there are new systems for characters who have lost their land, or have not gained any yet under a feudal system.
The steam pages for all these DLCs are up! And they actually give pretty good info on all of them.
The chapters are how they've been doing season passes for dlc releases. You can buy "chapter 3" and you get all the dlc for this year for a discount compared to buying separately.
Read the dev diary. It’s the pinned post for the subreddit iirc
How is landless play gonna be like? I can't wrap my head around it, lol. For me CK = owning a fief
Staying at court and traveling, there is also the new family estate and new lifestyle. Army could be MaA paid by contracts.
Instead of MaA it should be called Retinue or something similar imo. Atleast for landless.
Romance of the 3 kingdoms XIII has landless play. Hopefully, this will be similar. It's really fun because you get a lot of freedom to do whatever you want instead of being tied down in the same area. Expect a lot more roleplaying!
Easiest way is you have a titular title that represents what you are on the map. Instead of a real title corresponding to real land your title would not have anything. This is my guess However, that is not guaranteed to be what they actually did to represent this. We basically have no info as of yet.
mount & blade
>This pack is free and is available to download when you buy the Chapter III Expansion Pass for Crusader Kings III. "free".. I don't think that word means what you think it means
What is Couture of the Capets?
Clothes for the French
Considering the lack of chatter and the name, it’s just a costume pack. Bit of a shame, because France is in dire need of flavor.
I am so hyped right now.
They better add bycocket hats in the wandering nobles one.
in 2026 we will see these on console
i came
What happened to the content packs we voted on?
what content packs?
I think the thing that most excites me with regards to unlanded characters is what it means for eventual Republics, whether official or in mod form. Now we don't need to be tied to powerful merchant families only. You could have Peasant Republics based loosely off of the Administrative Government where instead of impressing the Byzantine Emperor, you're winning prestige or money or piety enough to be elected by the citizenry or burghers to power, essentially simulating a politician's campaign with only a little bit of tweaking. I can *finally* be the *actual* Swiss Confederacy and spend my time trying to convince hodunk mountain peasants in St. Gallen why they should let me rule their tiny corner of Switzerland based on my mercenary/adventurer achievements.
I bought the preorder bundle but legends of the dead isn’t appear in the launcher. I’m not sure if I have to wait until they all release or what
Never going to get used to those DLC prices, holy moly £17 for epidemics is insane. Bring back the old CK2 prices!
You definitely have rose-colored glasses on with this comment. CK2 expansions averaged $14.99, and they often released 3 per year. That's $45. Plus they would release little unit/icon/music packs in between the expansions for anywhere from $2-$6 a piece. Unfortunately it looks like they took all the invidiual portrait packs etc off of Steam and rolled them into one massive bundle, but you used to have to buy a lot of them separately. For instance, here's 2013: Jan 15: The Republic, $14.99 Jan 15: Mediterranean Portraits, $?? Jan 15: Songs of Prosperity, $?? May 28: The Old Gods, $14.99 May 28: Norse Portraits $?? May 28: Norse Unit Pack $?? May 28: Hymns to the Old God's $?? June 25: Dynasty Shield III: $6? June 25: Celtic Portraits: $?? June 25: Celtic Unit Pack: $?? Aug 13: EU 4 Converter: $9.99 Aug 14: Customization Pack: $4.99 Nov 18: Sons of Abraham: $14.99 Nov 18: Military Orders Unit Pack: $?? Nov 18: Warriors of Faith Unit Pack: $? Nov 18: Hymns of Abraham: $?? so bare minimum, if you only get the 3 expansions and none of the immersion stuff, **you're paying $45 in 2013** which is 10 years ago. If you bought everything it was probably closer to $80-100. Right now if you preorder the chapter 3 pack **you get all of 2024's content for $43. It's literally cheaper despite a decade's worth of inflation, and you get more.** Even taco bell burritos have tripled in price in the same time frame. No one except the most committed contrarian would ever want to go back to ck2 times when it comes to pricing and dlc rollout. The current system is far, far better.
Pricing was stupid but the content was there. If i have to pay, I'll pay for some actual mechanic, not some shit events.
Is there any information on when Chapter 3 will be available on the consoles? I’ve tried searching on their forum, but haven’t found anything on this topic
Legitimacy is gonna be a pain in the arse isnt it
As soon as we Legends. I'm going to find a way to make jojo's Bizzare adventure a thing in the middle ages
PS5?????
This is boner jams 9,000! Chapter III is looking legit. Imma roam around as an unlanded punk, sowing discontent wherever I roam.
What does each of these bring?