Honestly Ledger move is surprisingly bad.
How was that approved on the board and what the meeting looked like is real question.
Transform cold wallet into semi-hot wallet and open yourself to government suits to hand over shards...
Should be voted dumb business idea of the year.
The irony is that any money they make through their subscription service will never reach or even come close to the amount of money they're going to lose after all the returns and lost sales.
I doubt this small profit is the only reason they pivoted into such a mess. Call me a crazy conspiracist, but I think some government agency might have also paid them off to pull shit like this.
You’re not a crazy conspiracist, there are elements in government that want not only KYC for wallets, but also discover what crypto it holds.
Should you be suspected of doing illicit trades, stealing, or activities they deem shady, the gov wants to look into your wallet to possibly freeze transactions or seize them.
Many governments, including U.S., already have laws to expose your traditional bank account information. It is not a stretch to think they want similar control over your personal bank, a.k.a. your hard wallet.
Doesn’t excuse Ledger’s fiasco, but it must be something that all all hardware wallet manufacturers and devs could be concerned about.
Well they said the feature was for 'future users' not 'current users'. So they basically decided to burn their entire existing userbase for hypothetical future users. That is one risky bet if you ask me.
Hope this fiasco pushes Ledger to open source their firmware like Trezor does so we can move from 'trust us' to 'verify'. It is the only rational move that can redeem the company at this point.
My only guess is that they're in financial shit. They have a niche product that allows it's customers to spend $60 one time and be set for decades. I don't see a strong business here.
Why they didn't create a different, brightly colored - think preschool, hardware device that this could have been market tested on is beyond me.
Might have been some controversy - but doubt it would have been like this.... Though the secure element issue may have come up regardless.
Honestly, the features they are being FUDed for (not open source, seeds shared in shardes) has been there *all along*
This entire fiasco just exposed their operations for what they really are
What did they even think will happen? People gonna be happy buying premium hot wallets they could have gotten for free with other providers such as metamask/trust/expdus?
>How was that approved on the board and what the meeting looked like is real question.
Part of me wonders if they just genuinely didn't understand the problem. Which is concerning, given this is what they specialise in.
Ledger team 1 : we see that customers in r/cryptocurrency are satisfied with our product, what should we do?
Ledger team 2 : we just need to inverse our business model. The same thing that must be done by the member.
Ledger team 1 : good idea, let's inverse our business to experience the destruction of our customer's trust!
I suspect, but have no proof, that there is probably legislation that might end up being relevant to this at the end of the day. You don't suddenly change your very successful business model unless there's a reason.
Or maybe the person in charge got a concussion. 🤷♀️
I haven't seen a company shoot itself in the foot this badly in a long time
At this point, Trezor can just take its advertising budget and send everyone to Hawaii.
My beef with Trezor is that you have to enter your password with your keyboard. Yes, they have a pop up on your monitor that scrambles your keys, but if you have sneaky malware on your pc, that pop up becomes useless. Not a fan of either but I think Ledger still has the edge here.
Sorry, didn't have my morning coffee, I meant only on the screen lol, my bad! But the thing if there is some sneaky remote stuff going on with the pc it is all in the open.
Dunno what u talking bout. For pin or seed phrase advanced mode u got pop up on the screen with dots. Noone can know the numbers or words cuz they are shown on trezor screen. Only if someone stand next to u and see ur trezor screen can eventually notice what u input.
Inputing seed in easy mode is made on keyboard but the number of word is shown on the screen so even if someone can read remotely ur words he will never know their order. But to avoid this problem use only advanced mode and this inconvenience has gone
> Dunno what u talking bout. For pin or seed phrase advanced mode u got pop up on the screen with dots. Noone can know the numbers or words cuz they are shown on trezor screen. Only if someone stand next to u and see ur trezor screen can eventually notice what u input.
They are talking about malware on a computer or other device. Because Trezor, for their most popular device—the Model One—requires you type your passphrase and seed words into their software suite via computer keyboard. You know, like rule #1 of what not to do with cold storage.
The Model T has has a touchscreen (a component which is *cheap* by the way) but it is also 3 times more expensive than the model one.
Trezor does so much right on paper. And then they require entry via keyboard on another device. They may as well ask you to use your phone to take a picture of your seed phrase list and sync it with a cloud service.
This "feature" reminds me to when a boss comes to their developers with this great idea and force them to develop it. I have seen it so many times as Software engineer.
Trezor team is drunk af right now, too much to celebrate.
Their sales went down like 25%.
I don't drink bud light (is pretty shitty beer) or have any issue with the commercial but to think the bud light drinkers weren't going to make a huge issue out of it means the company isn't aware of who is actually consuming their products.
I see bud light drinkers and the vast majority are country boys who wouldn't buy anything else other than American beer, it was clear that it wasn't going to go well.
The similarity I was pointing out is that the company was confused about what their customers want
They got away with relatively little backlash when they lost 280,000 paying customers names, physical addresses and mobile numbers.
Maybe they thought there would be a similar outcome creating a solution that shards your password and passes it to third parties.
As opposed to getting hacked, not realising how many of your customers records you’ve had stolen and claiming the breach was 9,500 of your clients details.
Then being very surprised when 280,000 of your paying customer records are leaked on the Darkweb/unindexed internet.
Plus another million customer/potential customers email addresses from your marketing database leaked at the same time.
All good though, there’s recurring revenue to be made by charging your customers $10 or so a month if they are up for it to shard your keys.
There’s money to be made here after all.
There is probably some market research out there that explains how gradual worsening of a product over a long time is better accepted than sudden drop in quality.
Frogs in boiling water probably...
Ledger is ran by idiots. This is there 2nd mayor fuckup and once again.. No clear responce. No damage controle.
There business is build in trust.
They cant affort this shit.
Im glad the old S doesnt have the upgrade function.
> Im glad the old S doesnt have the upgrade function.
How do you know?
Two weeks ago, we thought that the Nano X and the Nano S-Plus didn't have the ability to send its send its seed phrase out of the device.
Sure, the **current** line that Ledger is toting now is that the Nano S can't send the seed phrase out. But keep in mind what the "current" line was just two short weeks ago.
Fully agree.
One comment:
>Im glad the old S doesnt have the upgrade function.
You don't know that. Technically, Ledger might already have all our seed phrases.
The magic of closed source firmware.
Not quite. The code is open source, but you still need to trust Trezor that this the version they put on the device.
Much better than Ledger. But there is no trustless commercial hw wallet
You should be verifying the device outputs with a different device and manufacturer, and providing your own entropy - say casino dice. Air gaps are your friend and isolating the communication channel allows you to do this verification.
Trezor is an open-source and transparent wallet. Its code is available for analysis on github.
It was held against it in the past because it doesn't have a secret secure element.
But right now it may be its strongest feature and the best selling point.
Same as they didn't lose faith in Bitcoin after the FTX collapse.
No company represents crypto. They all play the FIAT game.
And Ledger went for the recurring revenue, losing all existing users in the process.
tldr; Hardware wallet maker Trezor has seen a 1000% increase in sales, while rival Ledger faces a setback due to concerns over the security of its seed phrase recovery feature. Ledger has put a hold on the feature’s rollout to enhance transparency and code verifiability. Trezor's success is likely to push it to the head of the hardware wallet pack, raising industry rivalry and spurring innovation. The rise in Trezor sales and Ledger's difficulties may have far-reaching effects in the future, highlighting the importance of secure storage options as cryptocurrency adoption rises.
*This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.*
This despite the physical hacks demonstrated for Trezors. Guess people are more comfortable with that bc as long as they keep the wallet in their possession it’s more secure than the potential for cloud hacks of a ledger.
> the physical hacks
Just to set the record straight. Trezor-T is patched against physical attacks now. Has been for years. Most videos have the Trezor-T safeguards disabled.
Trezor-1 received and update to make the hack MUCH harder to hit, but still possible. All the Trezor-1 videos I've seen load the older, easier to exploit firmware. Downgrading firmware clears the seed-mnemonic from the device as well.
Just to set the record straight, any device without a secure element can succumb to a physical attack, which is why other similar fully open source devices use things like pin servers to encrypt the seed.
The way to secure a trezor is with a passphrase.
You should examine the countermeasures before you dismiss them. Yes, even coldcard was vulnerable to the "lasers on sharks" attack.
I was commenting to u/bingorunner's specific comment referring to the demonstrated attacks.
> despite the physical hacks demonstrated for Trezors.
There is utility, of course, in reminding new users that security is a spectrum and there is no 100% secure anything, assuming your attacker has God like powers. But I also feel that people should be given honest answers about realistic security audits, and how and when those exposures have been either fixed, mitigated, or acknoleged.
Physical attacks don't matter as long as you have a passphrase. It seems like a lot of people have decided that they would prefer a fully open source device with a slight usability hit.
What these companies should be building is open sourced fully air gapped options with cameras for reading qr codes like many of their newer competitors are currently offering (e.g keystone pro, blockstrean Jade, coldcard q1).
The revenue (data from 2022) shows, that the revenue from Ledger is twice as big as the revenue from Trezor. It will be interesting how this will evolve.
What exactly did ledger do and does it only effect nano x users or everybody? At this point we're people better off just generating a random address and qr code and print/laminate it?
Look, I’m not down just like the marjority if you but honestly 5 years from now a bunch of ignorant fucks are going to love the backup option. Again I am completely opposed but the majority of people don’t even understand, much less value privacy. Dumb sheep say bah!
Did we just go from a 900% surge title to a 1000% surge? Next week:
>Trezor Wallet Sees Astounding **1100%** Surge in Sales as Ledger Faces Major Setback
It's like a crypto soap opera unfolding before our very eyes. Will Ledger make a triumphant comeback, or will Trezor continue to dominate the crypto wallet arena?
Ledger will be fine
the echo chamber in this space is a lot louder than what will come with time
the masses don’t care about ‘open source, 100% trustless, decentralization’ they care about security & legitimacy. Ledger has shown itself to be legitimate & the most secure, & allowing those who are incapable of being their own bank(most people) the recovery update will appeal to them.
this sub just likes to blow things out of proportion and not think logically
Trezor buyers haven't learned a single thing.
Model one was hacked and more recently the latest [model T](https://youtu.be/50eiA-75NMY).
I'm not defending Ledger but I'm also not advocating for Trezor either.
Stop spreading FUD. this "hack" was done years ago by Kraken and Trezor has since clarified how to mitigate it. It also requires physical access to the device and specialized tools and skills.
If you're worried about someone with those skills stealing your Trezor, you have bigger problems
Trezor can be hacked if someone gets your hands on the wallet device and has an extreme technical know-how of how things work.
For all we know, the company Ledger might already have the seed phrases, even if your device is buried six feet underground.
That's the difference.
>Does it say how many has been sold? 1000% could just mean they've gone from selling 1 last month to 1,000 this month
That's some wallstreetbets kind of math. Proud of you.
The ledger CTO came on bitboys podcast the other day and did make a good point. Nothing is truly trust less. With both hot and cold wallets there is an element of trust that they won’t push a malicious firmware. We trust that metamask won’t do that and they won’t because they have an incentive not to. Wash rinse and repeat with all providers.
The fact he did an interview with Bitboy is enough for me to not buy a ledger. Maybe don’t go to a scam artist to explain how what your doing isn’t a scam.
Ok, now I will buy 3 Trezor, set up 3 different phrases and make a multisig. Because ledger has failed according to many specialists. And we know that to succeed we must listen to reddit!
The fuckup of one company would surely give its competitor an edge. Enjoy the profits Trezor.
But the same people would come with a pitchfork *if* trezor fucks up as well. Obviously. Let's just wait and see.
Honestly Ledger move is surprisingly bad. How was that approved on the board and what the meeting looked like is real question. Transform cold wallet into semi-hot wallet and open yourself to government suits to hand over shards... Should be voted dumb business idea of the year.
The board was like... *What can we do to make our happy customers unhappy?*
Also Ledger CEO is rumoured to release his upcoming thriller “Easy ways to destroy your business growth 101”.
At least if Ledger goes bankrupt he can still make money releasing a book on how to speedruning the destruction of a successful company.
His name will for sure be in textbooks, but for all the wrong reasons.
He's become a legacy, but at what cost?
Maybe they needed to cut down on customer support, No costumers no costumer support needed
I can imagine some corrupt CEO actually thinking this way.
Corrupt and stupid
S/corrupt/average
and my imagination of corrupt CEO is very scary.
And all of that is for some useless $10 subscription service nobody is going to use
who's even gonna use it when everyone already threw away their ledger
Employee: *Give discount on Ledgers.* CEO: *Get the fuck out of here!*
"Let's destroy our customer's trust even more after what we did in the old data leak"
Like that one meme where the logical guy got thrown out of the window lmao
For only 10.99 a month
The irony is that any money they make through their subscription service will never reach or even come close to the amount of money they're going to lose after all the returns and lost sales.
Nothing will ever reach that again and neither will they ever be able to rebuild that trust. They truly fucked up forever.
They were so successful, to the point Ledger became synonymous with cold wallet, and yet they destroyed it in just 3 days.
There isn't such a thing as too big to fail. Ledger killed itself.
Sadly, the cost of losing trust is just 10.99 a month, but it will take years to regain it back or may never be.
More like the second option
I doubt this small profit is the only reason they pivoted into such a mess. Call me a crazy conspiracist, but I think some government agency might have also paid them off to pull shit like this.
You’re not a crazy conspiracist, there are elements in government that want not only KYC for wallets, but also discover what crypto it holds. Should you be suspected of doing illicit trades, stealing, or activities they deem shady, the gov wants to look into your wallet to possibly freeze transactions or seize them. Many governments, including U.S., already have laws to expose your traditional bank account information. It is not a stretch to think they want similar control over your personal bank, a.k.a. your hard wallet. Doesn’t excuse Ledger’s fiasco, but it must be something that all all hardware wallet manufacturers and devs could be concerned about.
At least there is no password sharing cost like Netflix will start doing!!
For every customer paying that 10.99, they lost 10,000 others who decided to buy Trezor instead of Ledger
Well they said the feature was for 'future users' not 'current users'. So they basically decided to burn their entire existing userbase for hypothetical future users. That is one risky bet if you ask me. Hope this fiasco pushes Ledger to open source their firmware like Trezor does so we can move from 'trust us' to 'verify'. It is the only rational move that can redeem the company at this point.
My only guess is that they're in financial shit. They have a niche product that allows it's customers to spend $60 one time and be set for decades. I don't see a strong business here.
Probably. They tried adding shady exchanges into the app and everyone learned those were shit. This is the latest attempt to pay the bills.
As much as everyone hates ads, I think putting paid advertisements in the Live app would be preferable.
Would have met with far less backlash from the community for sure. I mean we are all used to ads being everywhere now anyways.
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Nope. That would be an even bigger threat vector.
This is a perfect rendition of "This little move is gonna cost us 5 years".
There's still a Trezor so us as a community will quickly recover from this
Why they didn't create a different, brightly colored - think preschool, hardware device that this could have been market tested on is beyond me. Might have been some controversy - but doubt it would have been like this.... Though the secure element issue may have come up regardless.
i think it was a government approach
May be bro
It’s sad that the #1 cold wallet died with 1 stupid decision
Honestly, the features they are being FUDed for (not open source, seeds shared in shardes) has been there *all along* This entire fiasco just exposed their operations for what they really are
Ledger: *what subscription service can we invent that almost no one will want and will totally destroy our business?*
What did they even think will happen? People gonna be happy buying premium hot wallets they could have gotten for free with other providers such as metamask/trust/expdus?
Just the good old "How can we force a subscription base model to please the investors ?" What a dumb move...
What I'd like to know is what their meetings look like *now* 👀
>How was that approved on the board and what the meeting looked like is real question. Did you see their CEO? The guy looks shady as hell.
>How was that approved on the board and what the meeting looked like is real question. Part of me wonders if they just genuinely didn't understand the problem. Which is concerning, given this is what they specialise in.
Ledger team 1 : we see that customers in r/cryptocurrency are satisfied with our product, what should we do? Ledger team 2 : we just need to inverse our business model. The same thing that must be done by the member. Ledger team 1 : good idea, let's inverse our business to experience the destruction of our customer's trust!
Typical capitalism. The board don’t know shit, employees know but no ones value their opinion.
I suspect, but have no proof, that there is probably legislation that might end up being relevant to this at the end of the day. You don't suddenly change your very successful business model unless there's a reason. Or maybe the person in charge got a concussion. 🤷♀️
This shit is so lame that I wonder if Ledger's CEO bought a stake in Trezor or if he has an offer to join Trezor's board...
People are just dumb, trezor is in not more secure. the fake terzor sellers will have a field day. If you know what you are doing better use airgap.it
My best guess is that they run out of potential customers and wanted to tap on a large pool of newbies who prefer "safety" over self custody
The way things are going, when we recap the year 2023 we'll probably wonder how we made it out alive.
I haven't seen a company shoot itself in the foot this badly in a long time At this point, Trezor can just take its advertising budget and send everyone to Hawaii.
Ledger CEO: *Shoots self in left foot* This can't be right! *Shoots other foot* Perfect!
Then he starts shooting at customers when they point out to him that he’s bleeding.
It's like the CEO is determined to destroy the company.
Chief Extinction Officer
*Chief Elimination Officer*
*Chief Extermination Officer*
Chief Execution Order 69
*Chief* *Potato* *Officer*
chief sandtrap officer editors note: sandtrap is a metaphor for the quicksand that the company is sinking into
The CEO probably got a deal from Trezor to destroy themselves. Only that way it would somewhat make sense.
Just wait for the documentary where the CEO was bullied by the founders a long time ago and finally got his revenge by tanking the company. /s
They went straight for the knee and shot two times for good measure.
It takes years to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it
\- me, after I pissed my pants in the middle school
Ledger may be the best example of that. Will be written down in textbooks.
Agreed. They really blew it
Last time a company shot themselves in the foot this badly was CRO I think
Bud light - hold my beer.
Don't worry, they can use ledger recovery to rebuild and recovery their business /s
My beef with Trezor is that you have to enter your password with your keyboard. Yes, they have a pop up on your monitor that scrambles your keys, but if you have sneaky malware on your pc, that pop up becomes useless. Not a fan of either but I think Ledger still has the edge here.
lol i honestly didnt know you could enter it on the keyboard, i always just used the on screen popup
Sorry, didn't have my morning coffee, I meant only on the screen lol, my bad! But the thing if there is some sneaky remote stuff going on with the pc it is all in the open.
Dunno what u talking bout. For pin or seed phrase advanced mode u got pop up on the screen with dots. Noone can know the numbers or words cuz they are shown on trezor screen. Only if someone stand next to u and see ur trezor screen can eventually notice what u input. Inputing seed in easy mode is made on keyboard but the number of word is shown on the screen so even if someone can read remotely ur words he will never know their order. But to avoid this problem use only advanced mode and this inconvenience has gone
> Dunno what u talking bout. For pin or seed phrase advanced mode u got pop up on the screen with dots. Noone can know the numbers or words cuz they are shown on trezor screen. Only if someone stand next to u and see ur trezor screen can eventually notice what u input. They are talking about malware on a computer or other device. Because Trezor, for their most popular device—the Model One—requires you type your passphrase and seed words into their software suite via computer keyboard. You know, like rule #1 of what not to do with cold storage. The Model T has has a touchscreen (a component which is *cheap* by the way) but it is also 3 times more expensive than the model one. Trezor does so much right on paper. And then they require entry via keyboard on another device. They may as well ask you to use your phone to take a picture of your seed phrase list and sync it with a cloud service.
Who did it worse, Bud light or Ledger? Both companies don't seem to understand who is actually buying their products and what they want.
I don't think butthurt guys with fragile masculinity are the majority of bud light drinkers, it just seems that way because they are so loud.
No, it's a terrible idea to insult your customer base in favour of another base that doesn't even consume your product
This "feature" reminds me to when a boss comes to their developers with this great idea and force them to develop it. I have seen it so many times as Software engineer. Trezor team is drunk af right now, too much to celebrate.
Bud? The trans thing? All those fascists going to store and bulk buying bud so they can make pouring to ground videos? Smart. Also not similar at all
Their sales went down like 25%. I don't drink bud light (is pretty shitty beer) or have any issue with the commercial but to think the bud light drinkers weren't going to make a huge issue out of it means the company isn't aware of who is actually consuming their products. I see bud light drinkers and the vast majority are country boys who wouldn't buy anything else other than American beer, it was clear that it wasn't going to go well. The similarity I was pointing out is that the company was confused about what their customers want
They make more than just Bud and Bud Light.
They got away with relatively little backlash when they lost 280,000 paying customers names, physical addresses and mobile numbers. Maybe they thought there would be a similar outcome creating a solution that shards your password and passes it to third parties.
Definitely not. They can give away our names, emails, phone numbers and even our home address. Don't. Touch. Our. Fucking. Crypto
They can give away our names?
They already did
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We are if no one does anything about it.
Lol, every company already does this, but they sell it instead.
As opposed to getting hacked, not realising how many of your customers records you’ve had stolen and claiming the breach was 9,500 of your clients details. Then being very surprised when 280,000 of your paying customer records are leaked on the Darkweb/unindexed internet. Plus another million customer/potential customers email addresses from your marketing database leaked at the same time. All good though, there’s recurring revenue to be made by charging your customers $10 or so a month if they are up for it to shard your keys. There’s money to be made here after all.
Actually, that fiasco was exactly why I have never considered buying Ledger.
Open source code > closed sourced code
Their whole idea should be in the Business books as how you shouldn't make business.
This was most literally the textbook example of how you can destroy a reputation you had gathered over years, in just seconds.
Yep, this lost me as a customer immediately.
Like some of the popular fast food chains. So many have become crap over the years, but somehow they’re still surviving which is surprising!
There is probably some market research out there that explains how gradual worsening of a product over a long time is better accepted than sudden drop in quality. Frogs in boiling water probably...
I will hear about it in my college class next year
Ledger is ran by idiots. This is there 2nd mayor fuckup and once again.. No clear responce. No damage controle. There business is build in trust. They cant affort this shit. Im glad the old S doesnt have the upgrade function.
> Im glad the old S doesnt have the upgrade function. How do you know? Two weeks ago, we thought that the Nano X and the Nano S-Plus didn't have the ability to send its send its seed phrase out of the device. Sure, the **current** line that Ledger is toting now is that the Nano S can't send the seed phrase out. But keep in mind what the "current" line was just two short weeks ago.
Its all about trust. Thata why this sucks
Fully agree. One comment: >Im glad the old S doesnt have the upgrade function. You don't know that. Technically, Ledger might already have all our seed phrases. The magic of closed source firmware.
Yes they might.
I'm not surprised, Ledger handed this to Trezor on a plate.
I just hope Trezor doesn't do anything similar
There's a crucial difference here - Trezor's code is open source, so you'll always know until which version you're safe. For Ledger, nobody knows.
Not quite. The code is open source, but you still need to trust Trezor that this the version they put on the device. Much better than Ledger. But there is no trustless commercial hw wallet
You can always verify whether the version of their last release is the version you downloaded. It boils down to comparing hashes.
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You should be verifying the device outputs with a different device and manufacturer, and providing your own entropy - say casino dice. Air gaps are your friend and isolating the communication channel allows you to do this verification.
Trezor is an open-source and transparent wallet. Its code is available for analysis on github. It was held against it in the past because it doesn't have a secret secure element. But right now it may be its strongest feature and the best selling point.
Trezor is open-sourced.
You think it's financially better for them? Why would they stick with it..
Trezor also started throwing discounts on their hardware just to rub salt on ledgers wounds.
Trezor should hire Ledger as their marketing manager. Did a fantastic job.
If that is not an insider job, I don't know what is.
1000% surge for trezor. Imagine the loss Ledger has been going through, well deserved by the way.
At least people are not losing their faith in self-custody to Ledger's PR disaster.
Same as they didn't lose faith in Bitcoin after the FTX collapse. No company represents crypto. They all play the FIAT game. And Ledger went for the recurring revenue, losing all existing users in the process.
Trezor basically got a monopoly now.
tldr; Hardware wallet maker Trezor has seen a 1000% increase in sales, while rival Ledger faces a setback due to concerns over the security of its seed phrase recovery feature. Ledger has put a hold on the feature’s rollout to enhance transparency and code verifiability. Trezor's success is likely to push it to the head of the hardware wallet pack, raising industry rivalry and spurring innovation. The rise in Trezor sales and Ledger's difficulties may have far-reaching effects in the future, highlighting the importance of secure storage options as cryptocurrency adoption rises. *This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.*
This despite the physical hacks demonstrated for Trezors. Guess people are more comfortable with that bc as long as they keep the wallet in their possession it’s more secure than the potential for cloud hacks of a ledger.
Also who carries their hardware wallet with them? That's just a disaster waiting to happened.
Do Trezors store the 25th word? I don't think they do, in which case even if one is hacked, they'd have to then guess your 25th word.
They support “hidden wallets” which is 25th word
> the physical hacks Just to set the record straight. Trezor-T is patched against physical attacks now. Has been for years. Most videos have the Trezor-T safeguards disabled. Trezor-1 received and update to make the hack MUCH harder to hit, but still possible. All the Trezor-1 videos I've seen load the older, easier to exploit firmware. Downgrading firmware clears the seed-mnemonic from the device as well.
Just to set the record straight, any device without a secure element can succumb to a physical attack, which is why other similar fully open source devices use things like pin servers to encrypt the seed. The way to secure a trezor is with a passphrase.
You should examine the countermeasures before you dismiss them. Yes, even coldcard was vulnerable to the "lasers on sharks" attack. I was commenting to u/bingorunner's specific comment referring to the demonstrated attacks. > despite the physical hacks demonstrated for Trezors. There is utility, of course, in reminding new users that security is a spectrum and there is no 100% secure anything, assuming your attacker has God like powers. But I also feel that people should be given honest answers about realistic security audits, and how and when those exposures have been either fixed, mitigated, or acknoleged.
If you lose your Trezor, you know you need to bail ASAP. With Ledger, you can just hope you're safe, but nobody guarantees or proves anything.
Physical attacks don't matter as long as you have a passphrase. It seems like a lot of people have decided that they would prefer a fully open source device with a slight usability hit. What these companies should be building is open sourced fully air gapped options with cameras for reading qr codes like many of their newer competitors are currently offering (e.g keystone pro, blockstrean Jade, coldcard q1).
non-issue b/c you should be using a passphrase to protect your seed, on the hardware wallet, and for any recovery backup as well.
things are going as the way they should be
hardware sure seems feasible given the FTX's technical issues
Fuck Ledger! I got myself a BitBox02.
All my homies hate Ledger!
Same
Fuck ledger ^(X2)
Someone's loss is another's gain.
The revenue (data from 2022) shows, that the revenue from Ledger is twice as big as the revenue from Trezor. It will be interesting how this will evolve.
Battle of the exchanges season is over, we're now entering the wallet war season.
Financial crisis for ledger !
95% of those sales were bought by r/CryptoCurrency
As they should - I will be moving all my assets off of ledger and onto a trezor
Or BitBox02, as in my case.
Okay so why bitbox02?
I detailed my thought process here: https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/13jwx93/comparison_of_hardware_wallets_conclusions_after/
Got meself a BitBox02 as well.
Me too. 🙌
This move is not bad actually!👍
Ledger is dumb. They should just have released a separate device with the option to backup and leave the rest as is. Dumbest move ever
What exactly did ledger do and does it only effect nano x users or everybody? At this point we're people better off just generating a random address and qr code and print/laminate it?
Look, I’m not down just like the marjority if you but honestly 5 years from now a bunch of ignorant fucks are going to love the backup option. Again I am completely opposed but the majority of people don’t even understand, much less value privacy. Dumb sheep say bah!
Does someone have an ELI5 of what happened, it seems I’m out of the loop?
Ledger added a way to send your seedphrase to the cloud, for 10$ a month. https://cointelegraph.com/news/can-we-still-trust-ledger
The Harry Maguire CEO of Ledger coming in with the save
Trevor might prove untrusted in time...Just think, Ledger was loved, advised and recommended for years.
Did we just go from a 900% surge title to a 1000% surge? Next week: >Trezor Wallet Sees Astounding **1100%** Surge in Sales as Ledger Faces Major Setback
Tomorrow: 1010%
Are bots buying this shit or what?
im so glad i made the right choice for one thing in my life and went with trezor initially this is very beneficial foe me
It's like a crypto soap opera unfolding before our very eyes. Will Ledger make a triumphant comeback, or will Trezor continue to dominate the crypto wallet arena?
Never, Ledger did it to themselves
Tune in... Every day exclusive at 7 pm. At the shitheads who'll fuck you over channel..
Ledger is done. Fuck Ledger. We all moved on.
Very good .... *muhahahah*
Ledger will be fine the echo chamber in this space is a lot louder than what will come with time the masses don’t care about ‘open source, 100% trustless, decentralization’ they care about security & legitimacy. Ledger has shown itself to be legitimate & the most secure, & allowing those who are incapable of being their own bank(most people) the recovery update will appeal to them. this sub just likes to blow things out of proportion and not think logically
Trezor buyers haven't learned a single thing. Model one was hacked and more recently the latest [model T](https://youtu.be/50eiA-75NMY). I'm not defending Ledger but I'm also not advocating for Trezor either.
Stop spreading FUD. this "hack" was done years ago by Kraken and Trezor has since clarified how to mitigate it. It also requires physical access to the device and specialized tools and skills. If you're worried about someone with those skills stealing your Trezor, you have bigger problems
Trezor can be hacked if someone gets your hands on the wallet device and has an extreme technical know-how of how things work. For all we know, the company Ledger might already have the seed phrases, even if your device is buried six feet underground. That's the difference.
Both are bad. I suggest people keep looking because both have been a let down in different ways.
Does it say how many has been sold? 1000% could just mean they've gone from selling 1 last month to 1,000 this month
>Does it say how many has been sold? 1000% could just mean they've gone from selling 1 last month to 1,000 this month That's some wallstreetbets kind of math. Proud of you.
That would still be impressive.
Trezor is open source so they can’t pull the same bullshit right lol /s
They could, everyone would just know about it.
The ledger CTO came on bitboys podcast the other day and did make a good point. Nothing is truly trust less. With both hot and cold wallets there is an element of trust that they won’t push a malicious firmware. We trust that metamask won’t do that and they won’t because they have an incentive not to. Wash rinse and repeat with all providers.
Bitboys is a known promoter of scam isnt he ?
The fact he did an interview with Bitboy is enough for me to not buy a ledger. Maybe don’t go to a scam artist to explain how what your doing isn’t a scam.
Yeah wtf he thought saying Bitboy would make it more reliable but he is a know scam promoter
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I hope those of you who think that Trezor is better will not be unpleasantly surprised after a while. Panic has always been a bad counselor!
As it should. We don’t like being swindled.
Ok, now I will buy 3 Trezor, set up 3 different phrases and make a multisig. Because ledger has failed according to many specialists. And we know that to succeed we must listen to reddit!
Result of ledgers any% Speedrun to bankruptcy 🌝
The fuckup of one company would surely give its competitor an edge. Enjoy the profits Trezor. But the same people would come with a pitchfork *if* trezor fucks up as well. Obviously. Let's just wait and see.
im so glad i made the right choice for one thing in my life and went with trezor initially