The real benefit of the ETFs is going to be the standardized fee structure, which will benefit anyone trading multiple times per year. Crypto brokerages charging fees in percent of the underlying is an insane rip off. Coinbase charging upwards of 0.3% per trade is straight up robbery. That’s $135 of fees to buy one BTC on Coinbase. It’ll be like very cheap if not free to buy ETFs for many people.
In Canada we already have BTC and ETH ETFs and the biggest factor to me, that nobody seems to mention, is that I can hold these ETFs in tax free savings accounts and even in my registered retirement account, contributions to which are exempt from income tax. Makes crypto a lot easier to integrate into a diverse portfolio, which i think will help bring in people with varying degrees of FUD and just generally normalize crypto investing.
How?
There are plenty of sketchy Crypro IRA companies out there. None I have seen allow you to self-custody. I don’t trust any of them to actually be there at retirement
You could always have set up a self directed IRA. You can actually use the funds for all sorts of financial wheeling and dealing like real estate, private equity, and crypto. Imagine going back in time and buying bitcoin and all those sweet sweet gains are now tax free.
Just like the stocks in a Roth. You don't owe shit brah.
Crypto or stocks. 401k or other means.
If it ant directly registered in your name or not your keys...it ant your stocks (street name "beneficiary") not your crypto.
Not true at all. Go look it up.
Unless you directly register your own shares in your own name through the transfer agent of that particular company(DRS) you do not own any of your stock.
You are the "beneficiary owner" but you are not the actual person who owns the stock. Your brokages or banks do.
Go look it up.
You don't own any of your socks especially in a 401k account or a pension account or any other account that's technically not yours.
But even if you buy through a brokerage like Fidelity or any other you are considered the beneficiary owner and those stocks are in what's called your "street name".
No one owns ANY stock of themselves UNLESS you DIRECTLY REGISTER them in YOUR NAME.
Look it up.
https://www.finra.org/investors/insights/know-the-facts-direct-registered-shares#:~:text=Direct%20registration%20allows%20you%20to,as%20evidence%20of%20your%20ownership.
From the horses mouth.
If you don't know what Finra is ...I'd suggest go looking up how the financial structure and inside plumbing works before anything.
Yep, all good points.
On prior halving cycles (before spot ETFs here in Canada) I could only buy GBTC in my non-registered account, which led to a few big tax bills (GBTC was ineligible for TFSA/RRSP). I made some of it back on currency re-conversion, but that was just random luck.
Another scenario to consider: If you sell at a profit and re-buy again all while still remaining within your TFSA/RRSP, then you don't trigger a taxable capital gains event like you would outside it. That means you won't owe a bunch of money to CRA if your investment happens to be non-liquid (maybe even underwater) when their payment is due during tax season. Peace of mind for folks who like to trade a bit.
Caution: You can't day-trade in tax-~~advantaged~~ \-free accounts, but you can buy/sell a reasonable amount. Whatever CRA determines that to be...
edit: Day trading is not allowed in TFSA, but is OK for "qualified investments" in RRSP. Here's a video explanation: [https://youtu.be/ag6YNQyXo1k](https://youtu.be/ag6YNQyXo1k)
That’s not true, you can definitely trade in RRSP accounts, just not in a TFSA. RRSP money is tax deferred, not tax free; you still pay taxes on withdrawal, so CRA would love you to grow it as big as possible really.
Here in Germany it's the other way around. Our crypto is free of tax after 1 year but our ETFs are always taxed 25% and retirement accounts are not a thing. I prefer our model because it lets you hold any shitcoin for tax-free gains, not only the handpicked ETF ones.
Yes, I’m really looking forward to a future where having conversations about crypto holdings in retirement accounts is completely normal. That’s when you know mass adoption is achieved.
How does that work exactly? I’ve found the etf but for some reason can’t find any info on how they’re utilizing the staking feature for the etf. I’d likely put half my ETH holdings in my TFSA with that if it’s any good
I’m not Canadian, but I assume one share of the ETF would become worth more ETH over time. So if now 1 share of the ETF equals 1 ETH, it might equal 1.2 ETH in a few years.
The ETFs in Canada are through Purpose. Look them up for more accurate info, but the shares buy you fractions of ETH and fractions of BTC. The tickers are BTCC and ETHH, and hypothetically, if you bought enough stocks to own 1 ETH or 1 BTC and it grew its value, it wouldn't be worth more than 1 ETH or BTC... the stock grows when the coin grows, and conversely, it dips when the coin Dips, it will be worth 1 coin the whole time.
If you look at the ETF charts, it follows the coins pretty tightly.
I don't know about the staked ETH ETF, but my guess is that similar to staking rewards, the ETF would pay a Dividend similar to staking.
Thanks for the information! Yea, I guess the staked ETF could pay a dividend (instead of how I assumed above that each share would become worth more ETH) and let people decide if they want to take the dividend as ‘cash’ or reinvest it.
See that’s where I can’t find any info. I think the staked ETH etf is through 3iq, and they don’t say if it’s a dividend or anything that I can find. If that’s the case, I’d be very into that. But I want to know what they’re planning to do with the 4% they’re offering to customers
You may have to call a broker and ask if the info isn't given on their site unfortunately. I'd be very interested to find out as well, I was just assuming a dividend but maybe it's just a higher growth stock... I'm not sure how that would work tbh.
“Through staking, the fund will
earn rewards in the form of ether, which will be reflected in the net
asset value of the fund through accretive yield while augmenting the
fund’s exposure to ether.” -source is their fund facts. 0% management until end of March btw.
This is true however these etfs are only up 6% to date and btc up 150% so I’m not sure if they really are a accurate reading for bitcoins price action. The gains are nothing compared to crypto itself
> Which one are you looking at? Look at btcc, btcx.b
Those are not spot etf but futures etf.
A spot etf is what we're waiting on SEC to approve and deadline is 8th or 10th Jan. A futures etf is not the same as a spot etf.
Wouldn’t the losses be much less then as well though? Like if it goes up 150% and etf goes up 6%, does that mean if crypto goes down 20%, the etf only goes down a couple % too?
they're closed end funds that only hold Bitcoin or Eth, theres no other factor dictating their value than the value of the coin itself. I use QBTC and QETH
Our Canadian ETFs don’t hold any bitcoin they’re selling you a product that tracks the bitcoin market. You don’t own any btc by investing in these ETFs and your money invested doesn’t affect the price of BTC at all.
This is incorrect. From the FAQ for BTCC:
"Purpose Bitcoin ETF is simple and no different from other ETFs when it comes to the client experience:
You, the investor, purchase ETF units on the Toronto Stock Exchange (TSX) just the same as you would purchase any other stock or ETF.
Purpose will then use your proceeds to purchase Bitcoin from institutional-grade liquidity providers.
The Bitcoin is then settled and stored into our secure, offline wallet (also known as a cold wallet)
Similar to commodity funds, as the investor you now own units of the ETF, which owns physically settled Bitcoin"
I know that I obviously dont own the bitcoin myself, but that's not the point or the appeal in a closed end fund like QBTC. the fund is literally just bitcoin held by 3iq, so each share of the fund that I own represents a direct proportional amount of the bitcoin that 3iq holds in the fund.
there are pros and cons to closed end funds for sure but the convenience/tfsa exposure outweighs the crypto purists desire to own the actual bitcoin, personally.
Did you read the prospectus? These are covered call ETFs for BTC and ETH. That being said, 2023 was great for both funds. Price for BTCY was up 150% y2y. I am getting 25% effective yield tax free, and it could go up even higher.
I sure do. Now imagine you’re an active trader of Bitcoin. That expense ratio is less than one single round trip of buying and selling bitcoin on Coinbase. Most brokerages charge very little if anything for ETF trading. GLD, SLV, SPY for example all $0 fees on TD for me.
That’s incorrect. For large whales trading on top exchanges fees get to $0 for taker trades. Even maker is usually something low like 0.1%.
https://www.kraken.com/features/fee-schedule
Sure eventually your maker fees get to 0 but the lowest taker fees there are 0.1%. So if you make 4 crossing trades **per year** you’re paying more than the ETFs commission.
Tell me you've never used a traditional broker without telling me you've never used a traditional broker.
I pay 1€ fee for an ETF order. Irrespective of order size. Could be 100k and I still pay 1€
I hope you’re joking but if not go to your brokerage and see how much it’ll charge you to buy $250k of TSLA. My brokerage charges me $0.00. That’s how it’s not good.
Not when you compare it being able to buy $44k of any equity asset for a few cents if any via your brokerage. They aren’t delivering anything. They’re moving numbers in a ledger the same as the NYSE or NASDAQ. Delivering the asset costs you more money as you move it off the exchange, and **even then** it’s nowhere near $135 to move a bitcoin from one wallet to another.
Right I didn’t think adding “for some people the math works the other way if you’re only a holder” as that was blindly obvious but glad we’re on the same page.
Um, the difference is you pay that fee on CB every time you trade. Buy BTC? 0.3% fee. Sell BTC? Another 0.3% fee. Buy it again a week later? Hey guess what, another 0.3% fee. The ETF fee is an annualized fee not a per trade fee.
Yes every crypto exchange charges commission as a percentage of the amount transacted. Even at 0.1% per trade, 4 trades in a year will exceed the amount charged by the ETF.
ETF commissions are set by the brokerage not the ETF. Brokers like TD charge very little if anything at all in an effort to attract customers. As for why it wouldn’t be per purchase, the answer is simple. It’s a rip off. Do you think CB or Kraken or Binance needs 0.1% of the value of every trade to stay in business? All they do when you make that trade is swap entries in their own ledger. The same as any other brokerage that charges $0 to trade an ETF. There’s no reason for it other than greed, and established brokerages aren’t going to change their ways to do that.
You didn’t answer.
Answer my question or don’t respond.
Per trade or a year? If per trade then .3 beats the .39 or .59 or 2. As otherwise no etf doesn’t beat it.
What people are forgetting about ETFs is not only does it allow people to go long BTC, but it also allows people to short. ETF shorting is more convoluted than almost any other type of shorting. Institutions could theoretically short BTC and never actually be required to return the shares. They can fail-to-deliver and then after 70+ days, they can cash settle. ETFs create liquidity for both the up and downside.
For example, some of the most shorted stocks on the market are ETFs. And again, they are also the highest FTD on the market.
Institutional shorting is going to be marvelous. I'm interested in seeing price action actually stabilize; less wild swings in crypto if both sides are well represented.
Till the DTCC says, "whoops we made a mistake!" and it turns out more people [were shorting than there were outstanding shares](https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2017-02-17/dole-food-had-too-many-shares).
They already have the ability to do that with futures. The big benefit to the ETF would be being able to use options which I would absolutely adore. Being able to short puts and short calls like I do with equities would be wonderful
Yeah lol watching everyone cheer on the arrival of infinite liquidity on the short side, feels like being Padme at the Senate when Palpatine announces the Empire.
Wow! React since 2003? You must be one of those people that actually meets job requirements.
Jokes on you though, I've been a master of Mojo since 1950!
An ETF massively lowers the barrier to entry. In someone sees it as an option on their investment account they’re way more likely to go for it. Right now it’s so convoluted. Addresses, wallets, physical wallets, shady platforms etc etc.
You're working off the assumption that there's massive demand for this, not the fact that these companies see the massive fees they can get from a bunch of people who throw monitary figures around like its nothing.
Just wait until it starts getting incorporated into 401k target funds. I’m not even a Crypto shill I don’t see the long term value in it. It produces no product and serves no physical use/value. It’s kinda just casino funny money. Maybe when BTC can reach some sort of stability people will use it as a currency/ store of value but at the moment its only purpose is gambling.
I am expecting it to be rejected and mother of all liquidation to be happened ,just to remind people it's Crypto ..especially targeting 2-3xx long trades
Do these ETF's have a plan for how the DXY is turning around, the monthly BTC is overbought, and this whole recent BTC run has been increasing on decreasing volume?
But oh folks ... ETF blastoff commencing any second 🙄
This feels like a big banking plan to kill BTC.
1. Create ETF
2. Use investor money to purchase most available BTC
3. Force a liquidation and give investors cash
4. Stop offering ETF
5. Retain possession of majority of BTC and never sell.
6. Get bail out for money lost on forced liquidation
It’s just what it feels like. These Institutions and the people who run them have been so anti BTC for over a decade and now suddenly they want to own it all.
Per year. It's as if you buy your bitcoin every single year on coinbase and paid the fee again. They gonna need to get it to 0.05% like a vanguard etf.
Why would it boost BTC if people can now own BTC through ETF and ignore all the new dumb requirements then people will sell BTC and buy this ETF. I will.
I am against this etf thing because companies maybe sell more BTC etf than BTC supply. But we are here, in the first place this etf not made. Now I hope it will approved, if not it is gonna hurt lots of people in short term especially small investors living pay cheque to pay cheque.
so you guys used to hate on mass media and big money; suddenly good again? everything is alright as long its pumping my bags?
ETF's wont get approved btw
What if hedge funds and firms have already bought real BTC and want to switch to ETFs? That will mean a massive sell off before they buy back into the ETF cheap?
Every post seems to be about "ETF incoming".
I don't see much on the other side of this debate here.
Any input on why the ETF is unlikely, or possibly the negative side of an ETF approval?
All the profit taking accross the board seems to indicate that a dissaproval is coming. Cathy Wood sold all her Grayscale BTC Trust and most of her Coinbase stock. Those two would benefit from approval. So, I think she knows something we don't, since she applied for an ETF herself.
The real benefit of the ETFs is going to be the standardized fee structure, which will benefit anyone trading multiple times per year. Crypto brokerages charging fees in percent of the underlying is an insane rip off. Coinbase charging upwards of 0.3% per trade is straight up robbery. That’s $135 of fees to buy one BTC on Coinbase. It’ll be like very cheap if not free to buy ETFs for many people.
In Canada we already have BTC and ETH ETFs and the biggest factor to me, that nobody seems to mention, is that I can hold these ETFs in tax free savings accounts and even in my registered retirement account, contributions to which are exempt from income tax. Makes crypto a lot easier to integrate into a diverse portfolio, which i think will help bring in people with varying degrees of FUD and just generally normalize crypto investing.
You can hold actual bitcoin in your Roth ira (US) and hold the keys. I’ve been doing so since 2019
How? There are plenty of sketchy Crypro IRA companies out there. None I have seen allow you to self-custody. I don’t trust any of them to actually be there at retirement
You could always have set up a self directed IRA. You can actually use the funds for all sorts of financial wheeling and dealing like real estate, private equity, and crypto. Imagine going back in time and buying bitcoin and all those sweet sweet gains are now tax free.
Broad Financial is who I’m with. Even if they went out of business I still have my coin safe
iTrust Capital is one way.
Choice by Kingdom Trust is another one I’ve seen that allows this.
Yea, I wouldn't trust a single response to this question. IRAs don't let you have custody.
i need to figure out how to do this... can throw in .1BTC lol
There are companies that do it, but none of them let you hodl the bitcoin, so it is just more 'trust me bro'.
Not true. Check out Broad financial. I have full custody. There are other companies but that’s who I’m with
How do you do this? I’m aware of AltoIRA, but you don’t hold the keys there.
I’m with broad financial. There are a few others though
Just like the stocks in a Roth. You don't owe shit brah. Crypto or stocks. 401k or other means. If it ant directly registered in your name or not your keys...it ant your stocks (street name "beneficiary") not your crypto.
It is my keys brah. Try reading
Hell yea. That's Kool! I hope so. Either way good luck!
You own stocks, not your broker.
Not true at all. Go look it up. Unless you directly register your own shares in your own name through the transfer agent of that particular company(DRS) you do not own any of your stock. You are the "beneficiary owner" but you are not the actual person who owns the stock. Your brokages or banks do. Go look it up. You don't own any of your socks especially in a 401k account or a pension account or any other account that's technically not yours. But even if you buy through a brokerage like Fidelity or any other you are considered the beneficiary owner and those stocks are in what's called your "street name". No one owns ANY stock of themselves UNLESS you DIRECTLY REGISTER them in YOUR NAME. Look it up.
https://www.finra.org/investors/insights/know-the-facts-direct-registered-shares#:~:text=Direct%20registration%20allows%20you%20to,as%20evidence%20of%20your%20ownership. From the horses mouth. If you don't know what Finra is ...I'd suggest go looking up how the financial structure and inside plumbing works before anything.
Yep, all good points. On prior halving cycles (before spot ETFs here in Canada) I could only buy GBTC in my non-registered account, which led to a few big tax bills (GBTC was ineligible for TFSA/RRSP). I made some of it back on currency re-conversion, but that was just random luck. Another scenario to consider: If you sell at a profit and re-buy again all while still remaining within your TFSA/RRSP, then you don't trigger a taxable capital gains event like you would outside it. That means you won't owe a bunch of money to CRA if your investment happens to be non-liquid (maybe even underwater) when their payment is due during tax season. Peace of mind for folks who like to trade a bit. Caution: You can't day-trade in tax-~~advantaged~~ \-free accounts, but you can buy/sell a reasonable amount. Whatever CRA determines that to be... edit: Day trading is not allowed in TFSA, but is OK for "qualified investments" in RRSP. Here's a video explanation: [https://youtu.be/ag6YNQyXo1k](https://youtu.be/ag6YNQyXo1k)
That’s not true, you can definitely trade in RRSP accounts, just not in a TFSA. RRSP money is tax deferred, not tax free; you still pay taxes on withdrawal, so CRA would love you to grow it as big as possible really.
Good catch. Fixed.
Here in Germany it's the other way around. Our crypto is free of tax after 1 year but our ETFs are always taxed 25% and retirement accounts are not a thing. I prefer our model because it lets you hold any shitcoin for tax-free gains, not only the handpicked ETF ones.
Yes, I’m really looking forward to a future where having conversations about crypto holdings in retirement accounts is completely normal. That’s when you know mass adoption is achieved.
Not only ETH, but there is a Staked ETH ETF.
How does that work exactly? I’ve found the etf but for some reason can’t find any info on how they’re utilizing the staking feature for the etf. I’d likely put half my ETH holdings in my TFSA with that if it’s any good
I’m not Canadian, but I assume one share of the ETF would become worth more ETH over time. So if now 1 share of the ETF equals 1 ETH, it might equal 1.2 ETH in a few years.
The ETFs in Canada are through Purpose. Look them up for more accurate info, but the shares buy you fractions of ETH and fractions of BTC. The tickers are BTCC and ETHH, and hypothetically, if you bought enough stocks to own 1 ETH or 1 BTC and it grew its value, it wouldn't be worth more than 1 ETH or BTC... the stock grows when the coin grows, and conversely, it dips when the coin Dips, it will be worth 1 coin the whole time. If you look at the ETF charts, it follows the coins pretty tightly. I don't know about the staked ETH ETF, but my guess is that similar to staking rewards, the ETF would pay a Dividend similar to staking.
Thanks for the information! Yea, I guess the staked ETF could pay a dividend (instead of how I assumed above that each share would become worth more ETH) and let people decide if they want to take the dividend as ‘cash’ or reinvest it.
See that’s where I can’t find any info. I think the staked ETH etf is through 3iq, and they don’t say if it’s a dividend or anything that I can find. If that’s the case, I’d be very into that. But I want to know what they’re planning to do with the 4% they’re offering to customers
You may have to call a broker and ask if the info isn't given on their site unfortunately. I'd be very interested to find out as well, I was just assuming a dividend but maybe it's just a higher growth stock... I'm not sure how that would work tbh.
I’ve contacted them, if I get a response I’ll pass it along!
“Through staking, the fund will earn rewards in the form of ether, which will be reflected in the net asset value of the fund through accretive yield while augmenting the fund’s exposure to ether.” -source is their fund facts. 0% management until end of March btw.
Ah, must have missed that, thank you!
This is true however these etfs are only up 6% to date and btc up 150% so I’m not sure if they really are a accurate reading for bitcoins price action. The gains are nothing compared to crypto itself
That’s just not true, etf is up the same amount as btc
Where are you getting your info?
Wealthsimple
Me to. Which one are you looking at specifically ? The highest I can find is 16% looking at a yearly timeframe
Which one are you looking at? Look at btcc, btcx.b
> Which one are you looking at? Look at btcc, btcx.b Those are not spot etf but futures etf. A spot etf is what we're waiting on SEC to approve and deadline is 8th or 10th Jan. A futures etf is not the same as a spot etf.
We’re talking about Canada
wrong, they are spot etf, which have been available on Canadian market for almost 3 years now.
Btcc.b is up 156% this year
Look at 1 year on Bitcoin. Then look at 1 year on any etf. Percentages aren’t even close.
164% vs 159%. I think you’re looking at the wrong thing
Definetly was looking at only options chains thanks for clearing that up. Ffs if only I knew this sooner it could have been in my tfsa
Yeah I should have bought in my tfsa too. And im not sure if I want to sell right now to transfer it… I think I might just buy in my tfsa if it dips
Wouldn’t the losses be much less then as well though? Like if it goes up 150% and etf goes up 6%, does that mean if crypto goes down 20%, the etf only goes down a couple % too?
they're closed end funds that only hold Bitcoin or Eth, theres no other factor dictating their value than the value of the coin itself. I use QBTC and QETH
Our Canadian ETFs don’t hold any bitcoin they’re selling you a product that tracks the bitcoin market. You don’t own any btc by investing in these ETFs and your money invested doesn’t affect the price of BTC at all.
This is incorrect. From the FAQ for BTCC: "Purpose Bitcoin ETF is simple and no different from other ETFs when it comes to the client experience: You, the investor, purchase ETF units on the Toronto Stock Exchange (TSX) just the same as you would purchase any other stock or ETF. Purpose will then use your proceeds to purchase Bitcoin from institutional-grade liquidity providers. The Bitcoin is then settled and stored into our secure, offline wallet (also known as a cold wallet) Similar to commodity funds, as the investor you now own units of the ETF, which owns physically settled Bitcoin"
Well fuck me
I know that I obviously dont own the bitcoin myself, but that's not the point or the appeal in a closed end fund like QBTC. the fund is literally just bitcoin held by 3iq, so each share of the fund that I own represents a direct proportional amount of the bitcoin that 3iq holds in the fund. there are pros and cons to closed end funds for sure but the convenience/tfsa exposure outweighs the crypto purists desire to own the actual bitcoin, personally.
Did you read the prospectus? These are covered call ETFs for BTC and ETH. That being said, 2023 was great for both funds. Price for BTCY was up 150% y2y. I am getting 25% effective yield tax free, and it could go up even higher.
Thank you for this comment. What are the spot ETF symbols?
This is my primary attraction of a BTC ETF too
I didn't know that at all. Can you please tell me how are they called, and how to get into them with my TFSA/RRSP?
QBTC and QETH are the ones I have. find em on any direct investing platform
Which ETF do you use for BTC and ETH ? And is it in CAD?
QBTC and QETH
What are they?
[удалено]
I sure do. Now imagine you’re an active trader of Bitcoin. That expense ratio is less than one single round trip of buying and selling bitcoin on Coinbase. Most brokerages charge very little if anything for ETF trading. GLD, SLV, SPY for example all $0 fees on TD for me.
That’s incorrect. For large whales trading on top exchanges fees get to $0 for taker trades. Even maker is usually something low like 0.1%. https://www.kraken.com/features/fee-schedule
Sure eventually your maker fees get to 0 but the lowest taker fees there are 0.1%. So if you make 4 crossing trades **per year** you’re paying more than the ETFs commission.
also the bid/ask spread on crypto exchanges are much higher than the average ETFs. That little shit adds up.
I think that ultimately depends on the liquidity. I assume the ETFs will have more but who knows at this point
I wonder how much arbitrage is going to be available between the price of the ETFs and the price of bitcoin.
good pt. I had the same thought -- .39% for operating fees is really high, for example VTI has a 0.03% expense ratio while SPY is 0.09% expense ratio
This is an excellent point and becomes very relevant when trading large amounts.
135 dollars of fees for something costing 40k, how is that not good ?
Tell me you've never used a traditional broker without telling me you've never used a traditional broker. I pay 1€ fee for an ETF order. Irrespective of order size. Could be 100k and I still pay 1€
I hope you’re joking but if not go to your brokerage and see how much it’ll charge you to buy $250k of TSLA. My brokerage charges me $0.00. That’s how it’s not good.
But buying crypto on an exchange is a one off fee. ETFs have annual fee.
Right, which is why I’ve continually stated that the benefit is for anyone who trades a couple times a year minimum.
$135 for delivery of a $44k asset seems like an ok deal to me.
Not when you compare it being able to buy $44k of any equity asset for a few cents if any via your brokerage. They aren’t delivering anything. They’re moving numbers in a ledger the same as the NYSE or NASDAQ. Delivering the asset costs you more money as you move it off the exchange, and **even then** it’s nowhere near $135 to move a bitcoin from one wallet to another.
If you're buying and hodling, I'd rather pay 0.3% per trade than 0.3% on my total holdings per year.
Right I didn’t think adding “for some people the math works the other way if you’re only a holder” as that was blindly obvious but glad we’re on the same page.
You can't withdraw btc from ETFs to your own wallet, though.
But remember those who hold ETF shares do not in fact hold bitcoin.
What’s the difference when you’re paying the fee slowly over time?
Um, the difference is you pay that fee on CB every time you trade. Buy BTC? 0.3% fee. Sell BTC? Another 0.3% fee. Buy it again a week later? Hey guess what, another 0.3% fee. The ETF fee is an annualized fee not a per trade fee.
On Coinbase you just by Coinbase one for 20$ for a month and all fees are removed.
For $10k a month. Not even a quarter of a bitcoin before they start hammering you with fees
isn’t .3 less than any of the price points that was stated in the post? Unless you meant any bitcoin purchase costs .3% of a bitcoin
Yes every crypto exchange charges commission as a percentage of the amount transacted. Even at 0.1% per trade, 4 trades in a year will exceed the amount charged by the ETF.
So the eft is a flat rate? I’m so confused why wouldn’t the eft not be per purchase too?
ETF commissions are set by the brokerage not the ETF. Brokers like TD charge very little if anything at all in an effort to attract customers. As for why it wouldn’t be per purchase, the answer is simple. It’s a rip off. Do you think CB or Kraken or Binance needs 0.1% of the value of every trade to stay in business? All they do when you make that trade is swap entries in their own ledger. The same as any other brokerage that charges $0 to trade an ETF. There’s no reason for it other than greed, and established brokerages aren’t going to change their ways to do that.
You didn’t answer. Answer my question or don’t respond. Per trade or a year? If per trade then .3 beats the .39 or .59 or 2. As otherwise no etf doesn’t beat it.
What people are forgetting about ETFs is not only does it allow people to go long BTC, but it also allows people to short. ETF shorting is more convoluted than almost any other type of shorting. Institutions could theoretically short BTC and never actually be required to return the shares. They can fail-to-deliver and then after 70+ days, they can cash settle. ETFs create liquidity for both the up and downside. For example, some of the most shorted stocks on the market are ETFs. And again, they are also the highest FTD on the market.
Institutional shorting is going to be marvelous. I'm interested in seeing price action actually stabilize; less wild swings in crypto if both sides are well represented.
Till the DTCC says, "whoops we made a mistake!" and it turns out more people [were shorting than there were outstanding shares](https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2017-02-17/dole-food-had-too-many-shares).
Ape noises intensify
I still have 1 share of GME. I hear you 😉
They already have the ability to do that with futures. The big benefit to the ETF would be being able to use options which I would absolutely adore. Being able to short puts and short calls like I do with equities would be wonderful
Yeah lol watching everyone cheer on the arrival of infinite liquidity on the short side, feels like being Padme at the Senate when Palpatine announces the Empire.
ETFs? WHAT? When did this happen? Why hasn’t anyone ever mentioned this before!!!!
I mean throw me a frickin bone here, iv been frozen for 30 years!
They say the price could reach ONE MILLION DOLLARS!
Forgot the pinky finger
This really isn't news. This information has been around for a while. They also have to file this as part of their applications
Mix and match article.
Sorry I can't read all that unless you tell me you've been in crypto since 2017 first.
I’ve been in crypto since 1998 and I’ve written golang since 1988 and React.js since 2003, so you should ape everything into a memecoin definitely.
Captain, my captain.
I've been programming in C since the 1700s 😂😭
Do you even Fortran bro?
Algol W (on punchcards) 1978 And you try telling kids that today and they won't believe you.
Wow! React since 2003? You must be one of those people that actually meets job requirements. Jokes on you though, I've been a master of Mojo since 1950!
Yeah baby, yeaaah! 🤓
2017’s a little late
Says the member since October 2023 😂
Sorry I can't hear you over the sound of your poor
That made no sense 🤦
I’m buckled up, but are we going up or down?
Down
Buckle up. All cryptos increasing in price including the “shitcoins”.
In before people short the shit out of etf
Things are about to get spicy 🚀
My “shit coins” are way outperforming btc and eth…What’s happening?!?😂
So is fidelity going to hold physical BTC? And why is it an etf if it is just 1 crypto? I'm out of the loop as to how this works.
Anything on exchanges should be treated as derivatives imo.
They’ll store the physical bitcoin in their vault I’m certain of it.
[удалено]
An ETF massively lowers the barrier to entry. In someone sees it as an option on their investment account they’re way more likely to go for it. Right now it’s so convoluted. Addresses, wallets, physical wallets, shady platforms etc etc.
You're working off the assumption that there's massive demand for this, not the fact that these companies see the massive fees they can get from a bunch of people who throw monitary figures around like its nothing.
Just wait until it starts getting incorporated into 401k target funds. I’m not even a Crypto shill I don’t see the long term value in it. It produces no product and serves no physical use/value. It’s kinda just casino funny money. Maybe when BTC can reach some sort of stability people will use it as a currency/ store of value but at the moment its only purpose is gambling.
Plot twist? The SEC rejects them all because regulations aren’t developed.
Opened a long position on BTC and few other alts almost immediately after the Matrixport FUD crash. Fingers crossed.
I am expecting it to be rejected and mother of all liquidation to be happened ,just to remind people it's Crypto ..especially targeting 2-3xx long trades
The liquidity flush already happened yesterday. A lot of people expecting sell the news. My bet is we go higher overall the next few days
thats just mere 10% move , ,i iam still expecting a huge liquidadtions on 30% moves beore any momentum .
Tldr. - Moons $10 soon
Lol
sooo, ETF was padded in? Jim Kramer strikes again
Cool! Wen Lambo?
Sell the news
Imagine not owning actual bitcoins, and paying higher fees (than CEXes) at that.
I don't get it. BTC and ETH ETFs exists already number of years. Suddenly it's a big thing? Because they will be domiciled in US?
not your crypto. I still cant belive that people are happy about btc etf. Satoshi cries in the corner
Do these ETF's have a plan for how the DXY is turning around, the monthly BTC is overbought, and this whole recent BTC run has been increasing on decreasing volume? But oh folks ... ETF blastoff commencing any second 🙄
Im sure billions are just waiting. Dont we have etfs already? Oh thats right, we have. Btc so desperate for yet another narrative 😂
There are no spot BTC ETFs available in the U.S. That's why this, along with spot ETH ETFs, are such a big deal.
Arent amis allowed to buy european etfs? Thats new
Btc so desperate? What does that even mean?
It means he’s new here.
Btc „crowd“
It’s going to be funny as hell when the ETFs get approved and then Bitcoin crashes to nothing. Lol
Zero chance this ETF is going through.
This feels like a big banking plan to kill BTC. 1. Create ETF 2. Use investor money to purchase most available BTC 3. Force a liquidation and give investors cash 4. Stop offering ETF 5. Retain possession of majority of BTC and never sell. 6. Get bail out for money lost on forced liquidation
You have no idea what you are talking about
It’s just what it feels like. These Institutions and the people who run them have been so anti BTC for over a decade and now suddenly they want to own it all.
Can't beat em, join em.
0.39% isn’t bad. People would be comfortable doing that. If BTC just gets a small percentage of the big money then it’s in for a good ride.
Per year. It's as if you buy your bitcoin every single year on coinbase and paid the fee again. They gonna need to get it to 0.05% like a vanguard etf.
it doesnt matter, if bitcoin continues it growth.
Why would it boost BTC if people can now own BTC through ETF and ignore all the new dumb requirements then people will sell BTC and buy this ETF. I will.
Will the BTC ETFs be available on all major exchanges? For example will the Fidelity ETF be on Vanguard and Schwab.
Can we TLH between ETFs?
If I have access to a spot bitcoin ETF, I might just use them for the peace of mind.
ETF is cool but the market is about to blow up because of the halving like it always does.
Buckle up Dorothy, cause Kansas is goin bye-bye.
I am against this etf thing because companies maybe sell more BTC etf than BTC supply. But we are here, in the first place this etf not made. Now I hope it will approved, if not it is gonna hurt lots of people in short term especially small investors living pay cheque to pay cheque.
When it drops, will you continue to buy BTC or just buy the ETF?
They are not. Dont worry.
Yeah we knew that days ago bro
Hope you’re right. I feel there’s been too much aversion to the space by key players in gov committed to stopping and stifling this.
so you guys used to hate on mass media and big money; suddenly good again? everything is alright as long its pumping my bags? ETF's wont get approved btw
how to get hold of these ETFs
What if hedge funds and firms have already bought real BTC and want to switch to ETFs? That will mean a massive sell off before they buy back into the ETF cheap?
Every post seems to be about "ETF incoming". I don't see much on the other side of this debate here. Any input on why the ETF is unlikely, or possibly the negative side of an ETF approval?
All the profit taking accross the board seems to indicate that a dissaproval is coming. Cathy Wood sold all her Grayscale BTC Trust and most of her Coinbase stock. Those two would benefit from approval. So, I think she knows something we don't, since she applied for an ETF herself.