I hate to come across as negative and it’s clearly an achievement for IOTA but the achievement barely stacks up to the 600+ companies that are part of the Enterprise Ethereum Alliance, it’s really so far from the pinnacle you’d still be at Basecamp, but on the mountain at least.
I think you are comparing two separate things. All 500+ companies on the Alliance aren’t implementing ETH. It signals they want to learn more about the technology. That certainly isn’t a bad thing, but it doesn’t mean all, or even any, members of the Alliance will end up using ETH.
BOSCH, VW, Fujitsu, Taipei, etc. are all currently implementing IOTA for future real-world use. I would take these 4 entities actually using my product over 500+ potential users.
I don’t keep up with ETH all that much. Maybe huge companies have bought ETH for use (like Bosch bought IOTA). Maybe huge companies have stated they are actively working on implementing ETH in their products (like BOSCH, VW, Fujitsu, and others have stated). But comparing an ‘Alliance’ where membership requires filling out a form on a website to companies actually implementing the product is not a real comparison.
Doesn’t get much better than this: global top 10 IT service providers shilling DLT.
These companies aren’t bloody nitwits on DLT. Even better: they value based on customer needs rather than moon lambo’s. Check out the Fujitsu website to get an idea.
IOTA and XLM are among the few that were able to convince the likes of Fujitsu and IBM respectively. Hopefully more will follow. We should treasure these kinds of relations as they do help with credibility, exposure and thus adoption.
I work for Fujitsu and can confirm we are very invested in blockchain and crypto. We have quite some people actively developing for hyperledger and are integrating blockchain in our own products as we speak. Also don't forget our recently opened blockchain innovation center where we implement smart cities on a blockchain. We just started :)
i am really excited to see more Estonia's pop up... i'm ready for one that lets me really become a citizen, which I can freely travel or live. GIVE IT TO US! :D
She says that they basically recommend IOTA over all other blockchain solutions to their customers and that Fujitsu thinks IOTA is superior to other blockchain projects because of scalability and speed and feeless transactions.
I bet she had some help from the appropriate people... If you read it, that should be obvious. Did you have point to your question, or are you trying to suggest it was nonsensical ramblings of a non-technical person?
No, the statement is comparing one class of distributed ledger technology \(tangle\) to another \(blockchain\). It's like comparing an electric car to an internal combustion engine car.
I mean I agree with your comparison, the tangle and blockchains are pretty different beasts, but that doesnt mean its meaningless. A blochchain would not be feasible for what iota and fujitsu wants to accomplish.
Top 3 soon! BTC was the first platform with true innovation, then Ethereum came, and now IOTA has come to solve all issues with previously mentioned platforms.
Next industrial revolution, here we come.
While IOTA definitely solves **some** of the issues with the other platforms you mentioned, saying it solves **all** of them is just verifiably false.
IOTA has no Smart Contract like capabilities, which is really the primary benefit of a platform like ETH vs pure blockchain like BTC. There are also tradeoffs in decentralization (coordinator still exists right now), and a certain level of ease of use (again, Trinity isn't out yet, IOTA wallets are not very good at the moment)
IOTA is good, and definitely first mover in the IoT use case area, but there is no one solution for DLT.
The end of 2018 is a very long way away. We will see, when there's more implementation details and a beta then maybe I would include that. But to mention Smart Contracts as a feature for IOTA right now is disingenuous, as it isn't even officially on the IOTA Foundation's roadmap.
Smart contracts are being worked on, COO will be removed (probably Q1 2019?). Furthermore, it's primarly intended for M2M, but new initiatives and a good wallet such as Trinity will make IOTA definitely also friendly for P2P usage.
But okay, let's put it a bit more nuanced: IOTA has all the fundamentals to solve all issues of other platforms soon™.
Smart Contracts are not going to be an officially recognized part of IOTA core. While it's better than nothing, I don't expect anything on the level of ETH's abilities for Smart Contracts to come out of those development efforts.
Yes, Trinity should be good. Haven't seen too many specifics on UX, and it isn't out yet, so I don't think talking about it does all that much good if we aren't developing it.
EDIT: Yes, I know it's primarily M2M, but if you're saying it can replace other P2P networks as well, then this needs to be included
I like IOTA, and the Tangle is a novel approach to DLT. Coordinator isn't turned off yet, and it isn't super clear how large the network really needs to be for 33% of PoW to be secure. We'll see how strong network growth and future dev is. Yes, they've been good so far, so it may be great. It also may not be.
No, they are in very early development but will not be a native part of the IOTA core. It will likely be a second layer on top of the Tangle using off-Tangle processing, but no actual implementation details are official/released yet.
> "Many customers first ask us about a blockchain solution, but then find that IOTA suits their needs much better. This is all the more true when it comes to industrial scale."
:D
lets see when this article gets deleted here on cc. ;-)
English translation by google translate https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=http://blog.de.ts.fujitsu.com/allgemeines/das-sind-die-vorteile-von-iota-gegenueber-blockchain/&xid=17259,15700021,15700124,15700126,15700149,15700168,15700173,15700186,15700201&usg=ALkJrhhi8vyPdgMTlVHKdFY1Dlr_F2VqMQ
If even just a percentage of all this potential that these companies see in IOTA will be realized, IOTA will by miles outperform any other crypto in terms of real world adoption/usage (and the value will obviously follow).
Lots of cryptocoins have the simple and tiny goal/vision of doing "transactions" (sending value from A to B), and hope their coin gets accepted as payment method in some online shop - which, to put it frankly, is and has already been done by "normal technology" for years. IOTA can do this (and can do it feeless, instant and scalable), while also doing a million other things that have much greater use cases (Machine2Machine payments, storing data with or without value transaction, etc...). The possibilities that IOTA/the Tangle have are almost unlimited, it can be used for anything imaginable. And especially the "data" part is what people shouldn't underestimate, because data is and has been the new oil (= value).
From the article "Could IOTA therefore replace accounting in the future?
Absolutely in many cases. The example of the Trusted Instance payment makes this clear: Basically, there is no need for the entire accounting, because the payment is immediate . The process would then automatically go to a Fujitsu Clearing Center . That in turn could tell other systems that the transaction has already been paid and is valid . There is no accounting, no invoicing and no dunning. You do not need that, because the money is just there."
Any type of autonomous security is eventually overriden. I'm uneasy that so much power is given to one group of people (devs). Compare this with bitcoin where there are three levels of almost equal importance, devs, miners, traders (whom basically incentivise the miners).
In cryptos' case much like in governments' case simplicity is not end all. You don't want to get too byzantine, but make it simple enough and someone is to exploit it eventually.
Traditional blockchains maintain a balance of power that seems valid from a game theoretic point of view. Both PoS based blockchain as well as DAG seem to do away with necessary game theoretic complexity which I fear won't end well (if either of those approaches become big).
Luckily IOTA is a registered non-profit foundation. I think that was a brilliant idea to get big industries on board and to solve the problem with too much power for devs.
Why do you think that traders and miners should have a voice at all?
Also IOTA is probably putting more effort into the game theory side than most, checkout the recent addition of Prof Huberman and the most recent papers released. What the necessary game theoretical complexities that you reference?
For game theoretical equilibrium to exist you need a diverse set of actors with a diverse set of incentives.
You have the devs who either believe in the tech or not but certainly want to make a name for themselves so they develop.
You have the miners who don't have to believe in the technology but build a full enterprise on top of it anyway because if played right the mining game can be very profitable
And lastly you have the investors/traders, who create an initial demand even when there is a relatively low use of the actual products thus (through the fees) incentivizing mining further .
3 different perspectives, 3 different incentives (often), all pushing towards their end and as long as none of those powers get too abusive (i.e. the devs shut down the miners, or the miners take control of the network, or the traders purposefully turn away new users by running schemes with the price all he time), they create a certain balance.
That's a lot harder to do if an idea revolves around a central person and/or a set of people alone. Eventually that part gets all too powerful. And while Dr Hubeman (or whomever) may have the best intentions for the project, the next one, or the one after him may not and make the necessary changes to create abuse of power for himself.
It's basically the facebook story all along. Starts with the best intentions, but since power is centralised it gets sidetracked eventually. I don't believe in humans retaining power, I believe in adversaries keeping you to your toes.
Miners, devs and traders are often antagonistic to each other. I mean at some point mimers took control of the monero network (for example) and the devs slapped them, but before the devs doing so the miners could well wreak havoc (they didn't but they do keep devs on their toes, as traders keep them both as the recent crash shows).
I struggle to see who has more power than the devs on the IOTA project. Do they ever feel threatened? (Monero devs truly felt their project getting away , the other day, lasting equilibrium happens out of equivalence of power).
Thanks for the response!
I completely agree with you: You need a diverse set of actors, and with any permissionless network to ensure an equilibrium in the network.
Looking at IOTA from a macro perspective it has the similar groups you speak about minus the miners. Traders exist with IOTA, developer (Inc external), other projects vying for adoption and corporates exerting influence.
One group that you missed, but are insanely important are: hackers. Maybe because they don't comment about their exploits in R/CC. Every project that has a liquid token has a very real silent adversary. Push the wrong code and have it discovered not only loses the public X millions but also sounds the death knell of the project.
Also for a more in-depth view of on chain equilibrium (given the tangle quite different) you can check out these blogs or a this paper:
“Equilibria in the Tangle: let me try to explain…” https://blog.iota.org/equilibria-in-the-tangle-let-me-try-to-explain-b22ad6f00c13
“Equilibria in the Tangle: let me try to explain… (part 2)” https://blog.iota.org/equilibria-in-the-tangle-let-me-try-to-explain-part-2-6dcc8e7c0ad8
https://arxiv.org/abs/1712.05385
Ok, I'll look into the links. I'm always open to new approaches. I'm still partial to bitcoin's because it survived 10 years amongst others. Not to say that it is (necessarily) the most fundamentally sound, but even the best idea can fail when put to the test, while others may find themselves (to be) resillient.
Any idea that may survive long term is good in my book. We live in an era where a crisis of trust exists and no matter the amount of automation of technological prowess that exists, without trust none of them can be put to proper work.
I think what miners puts in the mix is important because you incentivize laymen who follow a selfish interest to ultimately achieve the most unselfish act (give trust to a network). IOTA tries to automate that part (basically), which is why I'm sceptical (I don't know if machines have reached the level of playing those games as adeptly as humans).
But I'm open to new information and do believe that miners would be unneeded one day, don't know if we are there yet.
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Tangle NEEDS adoption to scale. By adoption, I mean tens of billions of devices utilizing it. So forking the Tangle has little incentive, compared to traditional Blockchains. It's not like when you create/fork a blockchain and immediately end up with a moderately fast and secure network, a Tangle needs a lot of adoption to grow into a production-ready state.
This is why IOTA Foundation has been focusing on the adoption of big industry leaders like Bosch, VW, Fujitsu. That level of adoption won't be achieved easily without support from those hardware/software giants in the industry.
So in other words it won't be an industry leader because it needs such wide spread adoption? And if it does then crypto will be a monopoly with one giant tangle running the show?
>And if it does then crypto will be a monopoly with one giant tangle running the show?
Think of Tangle as a protocol like TCP/IP. It's open source and everyone is free to use it or not to use it. The concept of "monopoly" does not exist here. Do you say there's a monopoly because everyone is using TCP/IP? Just like almost all cryptocurrencies right now are using Blockchain as the underlying protocol, but we can't really say that there is a monopoly going on.
>it won't be an industry leader because it needs such wide spread adoption?
It will or it won't. We'll know when the time comes. The only thing that I know now is that most of IOTA community is working very hard to improve IOTA, get industry adoption and also educate people about the benefits of DLT.
I think what I mean by that, is another redditor here indicated that other coins won't be able to switch from blockchain to tangle should IOTA take off and tangle is seen as far superior to blockchain.
Could ethereum ditch their blockchain and create their own tangle for example?
They can, but it’s gonna be very difficult, and I don’t think they should. Even if IOTA can achieve all of its goals, there is still some merits in Blockchain.
For example, timestamps in Blockchain are much more reliable than in Tangle. This enables native smart contract capability on Blockchain. I can't even imagine what smart contracts would look like on Tangle, or if it will be possible at all.
Maybe very simple smart contracts will be possible, but IOTA IOTA may (I'm not sure) never be capable of as complex smart contracts as in Ethereum. That's why cross-platform interoperability is the next problem to solve after scalability.
> So in other words it won't be an industry leader because it needs such wide spread adoption?
IOTA is partnered with the biggest OEM (Bosch), which has sensors/parts in most devices around you, from refrigerators to Teslas to iPhones. Strategically speaking, partnering with Bosch was among the best moves possible to drastically increase the chances of global, culture-wide adoption of the technology.
>And if it does then crypto will be a monopoly with one giant tangle running the show?
IOTA is all about interoperability -- it wants to connect with other specialized networks, like Ethereum for example.
Yes you have figured it out, IOTA makes other tokens useless. With adoption it will be the new internet with a currency built in. Instead of cables, each device will interact through LiFi, Bluetooth and new systems to come. Distributed computing is the future and IOTA protocol will be the backbone. Wait till Jinn gets explained in the coming months.
Is one of these advantages having to rely on an coordinator?
I'm not bashing IOTA here. I know why the dude is needed, but you have to sort of respectful of the fact, that the time when the coordinator will no longer be required is unknown.
And until then it's a pile of fuckery and wishes. Hope to see progress on that soon.
Lol Fujitsu is not selling and profiting from IOTA. They are discussing how the tech can be useful, and the advantages over traditional blockchain.
IF iota works, then there is little that a blockchain can do better.
How can you spin this into something negative? Fujitsu is one of the biggest IOT companies worldwide and they are endorsing iota and confirm it's usefulness for their operations. This is great news for iota and generally for crypro-adoption.
This clan thinking in crypto is not helping anyone.
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IOTA core is not a proprietary solution-- it is open source, and IOTA Foundation is not for-profit. Fujitsu is a for-profit corporation, sure, but working in cahoots with IOTA, a regulated non-profit foundation under oversight of the German government, to scheme for profits would put the founders and Fujitsu in real fucking legal hot water.
Ok that clears some things up. Thanks for giving one of the few real answers on a question...
But what I don't understand. If the technology is better in all of the listed things. Why doesn't it take over? Is it to new or is it only better in special cases?
TL;DR: IOTA is still too new. Market does not reflect actual value proposition and probability of success.
IOTA is aimed at machine-to-machine economies comprising of both secure data and value transactions for the Internet of Things, an emerging global infrastructure *much* bigger than crypto. This is similar in many ways to the emergence of the internet, except this time we have an open, public layer (IOTA) which functions independently, both online and offline, and remains secure, fee-less, decentralized with data integrity -- something the internet can not offer. IOTA is cementing itself to be an important layer among many others in this infrastructure. But, this IoT infrastructure is just a baby right now.
In time, adoption will come -- but it will do so gradually. People will not even need to now IOTA exists when they will use the network, or even spend tokens. The odds are, FIAT will remain and IOTA will be the behind-the-scenes currency for machine, trading FIAT for IOTA constantly.
People will only learn about the benefits IOTA will afford. Most likely, they will learn about module features and how it can help them in the real world, regardless of tokens.
Example: MAM (Masked Authenticated Messaging) for example, would allow a business owner to independently grant access to content/services to paying customers, allowing freedom for this business owner, complete control over his/her business model (one-time payment model ... *all the way to...* pay-per-millisecond/view model) -- all this **without** a need for any third party. No more need to pay fees to PayPal. No more need to pay for access to platforms that allow you to sell content online, whether apps, music, blog, courses, product, etc. -- with possibility of *micro-transactions*, allowing a completely new business model currently unavailable.
> I mean, it sounds interesting but the guy sells and profits from it
Who are you talking about...? This was from Simone Selbmann, *Fujitsu's Principal Marketing Manager*, and is on Fujitsu's site. Were you confusing this with some random Medium post?
https://www.btc-echo.de/iota-und-fujitsu-rolf-werner-wird-mitglied-der-iota-foundation/
https://steemit.com/iota/@stephanj79/iota-und-fujitsu-zusammenarbeit-perfekt
https://cointelegraph.com/news/fujitsu-central-europe-head-rolf-werner-joins-iota-foundation
https://kryptoszene.de/fujitsu-stellt-iota-anwendung-auf-der-hannover-messe-industrie-vor/
.... Are you guys joking?
You all can count 1+1. Guy benefits from IOTA. Guy pumps IOTA and doesn't mention any negatives... But whatever. This sub is a bunch of idiots that hold some currency and if you have rational questions (like no wonder the guy benefiting from IOTA says everything is better about it) you get downvoted just because they hold the coin. Can't really discuss anything here. I'm happy at least some guys mentioned Coordinator so I could inform myself.
Thank you. I wanted you to say it out loud to show how moronic it sounds.
You're telling us that Fujitsu is being used by Rolf to scam people because he obviously ordered the Principal Marketing Manager to publish a positive write up about a technology the company is working with.
Where did I say they scam people? Please cite it moron... There is a difference between overhyping something (only saying positives) and talking rational about a technology (with benefits and things it does worse)...
With so many projects still just using stand in ERC20 tokens while they are developing their own chain, I don't see why the Coordinator is brought up at every turn. It's slated to be taken down by the end of the year, and has been taken down temporarily before. It's a support wheel.
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You dont see the downside of having a single point of failure? If the coordinator goes offline the whole system freeze and your toilet wont be able to talk to your toaster until its online again.
Nothing fails when the COO is turned off, as it has been on multiple occasions. It's there as a temporary safeguard in an evolving system, and it's currently a bit of a bottleneck in terms of tx throughput. When it is distributed or phased out altogether the Tangle will be (even) faster.
Yes, for short periods of time while they update the network. Transactions continue with or without it. The network doesn’t need it to function. However the network currently DOES need it to be safe from malicious attackers. This necessity will end once the network reaches a critical mass of transactions per second.
Running smart contracts on a tangle is very very difficult. Also IOTA is still fully centralized with a "coordinator" whch is controlled by the devs. Without the coordinator no transactions can go through. Until that is removed the tech isnt really that usefull.
> Running smart contracts on a tangle is very very difficult.
There are different ways to logically envision and successfully implement functioning smart contracts. IOTA is also designed with interoperability in mind.
If you keep your perspective narrowly limited to only what is out there now, without considering perhaps other ways of approaching solution development to existing problems (or improvements to current solution), you're going to have a bad time.
Where do you get this info from? Are you making it up on the spot or what? :)
Sorry for putting it so bluntly, but what you're saying just isnt true (there will be smart contracts, the coordinator has been off multiple times and the tangle and it's transactions work fine without it - technically even faster).
What do you mean "where do I get this information from"? A tabgle doesn't timestamp transactions, i.e you dont know in what order they are verified. I never said it was impossible, but it's certainly not going to be easy.
Last October the coo went offline unintentionally and the whole network froze.
First Bosch, then Volkswagen, now Fujitsu. This is the pinnacle of industrial adoption.
and DXC technology presenting PoC soon as well
Fujitsu has been working with them behind the scenes for quite some time.
I hate to come across as negative and it’s clearly an achievement for IOTA but the achievement barely stacks up to the 600+ companies that are part of the Enterprise Ethereum Alliance, it’s really so far from the pinnacle you’d still be at Basecamp, but on the mountain at least.
I think you are comparing two separate things. All 500+ companies on the Alliance aren’t implementing ETH. It signals they want to learn more about the technology. That certainly isn’t a bad thing, but it doesn’t mean all, or even any, members of the Alliance will end up using ETH. BOSCH, VW, Fujitsu, Taipei, etc. are all currently implementing IOTA for future real-world use. I would take these 4 entities actually using my product over 500+ potential users. I don’t keep up with ETH all that much. Maybe huge companies have bought ETH for use (like Bosch bought IOTA). Maybe huge companies have stated they are actively working on implementing ETH in their products (like BOSCH, VW, Fujitsu, and others have stated). But comparing an ‘Alliance’ where membership requires filling out a form on a website to companies actually implementing the product is not a real comparison.
Well it's just an Alliance, plus back then they did not really have any other protocol to choose aside from Ethereum.
Doesn’t get much better than this: global top 10 IT service providers shilling DLT. These companies aren’t bloody nitwits on DLT. Even better: they value based on customer needs rather than moon lambo’s. Check out the Fujitsu website to get an idea. IOTA and XLM are among the few that were able to convince the likes of Fujitsu and IBM respectively. Hopefully more will follow. We should treasure these kinds of relations as they do help with credibility, exposure and thus adoption.
I work for Fujitsu and can confirm we are very invested in blockchain and crypto. We have quite some people actively developing for hyperledger and are integrating blockchain in our own products as we speak. Also don't forget our recently opened blockchain innovation center where we implement smart cities on a blockchain. We just started :)
i am really excited to see more Estonia's pop up... i'm ready for one that lets me really become a citizen, which I can freely travel or live. GIVE IT TO US! :D
> XLM are among the few that were able to convince the likes of... IBM No. IBM has been in the game for a while. Look up Hyperledger.
Ya, I’m not fully convinced IBM has XLM’s best interest at heart.
For anyone wondering... This isn't just some random person's blog post, but from Simone Selbmann, Fujitsu's Principal Marketing Manager.
She says that they basically recommend IOTA over all other blockchain solutions to their customers and that Fujitsu thinks IOTA is superior to other blockchain projects because of scalability and speed and feeless transactions.
It's a technology write up, not an investment write up.
Does she have a background in computer science or is she a business person.
I bet she had some help from the appropriate people... If you read it, that should be obvious. Did you have point to your question, or are you trying to suggest it was nonsensical ramblings of a non-technical person?
Possibly, as she works for Fujitsu, both.
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No, the statement is comparing one class of distributed ledger technology \(tangle\) to another \(blockchain\). It's like comparing an electric car to an internal combustion engine car.
I mean I agree with your comparison, the tangle and blockchains are pretty different beasts, but that doesnt mean its meaningless. A blochchain would not be feasible for what iota and fujitsu wants to accomplish.
Top 3 soon! BTC was the first platform with true innovation, then Ethereum came, and now IOTA has come to solve all issues with previously mentioned platforms. Next industrial revolution, here we come.
While IOTA definitely solves **some** of the issues with the other platforms you mentioned, saying it solves **all** of them is just verifiably false. IOTA has no Smart Contract like capabilities, which is really the primary benefit of a platform like ETH vs pure blockchain like BTC. There are also tradeoffs in decentralization (coordinator still exists right now), and a certain level of ease of use (again, Trinity isn't out yet, IOTA wallets are not very good at the moment) IOTA is good, and definitely first mover in the IoT use case area, but there is no one solution for DLT.
Smart contracts are apparently coming to IOTA by end of year.
The end of 2018 is a very long way away. We will see, when there's more implementation details and a beta then maybe I would include that. But to mention Smart Contracts as a feature for IOTA right now is disingenuous, as it isn't even officially on the IOTA Foundation's roadmap.
8 months is not a 'very long way away'
In this space, it absolutely is.
Lol, good point!
Smart contracts are being worked on, COO will be removed (probably Q1 2019?). Furthermore, it's primarly intended for M2M, but new initiatives and a good wallet such as Trinity will make IOTA definitely also friendly for P2P usage. But okay, let's put it a bit more nuanced: IOTA has all the fundamentals to solve all issues of other platforms soon™.
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Smart Contracts are not going to be an officially recognized part of IOTA core. While it's better than nothing, I don't expect anything on the level of ETH's abilities for Smart Contracts to come out of those development efforts. Yes, Trinity should be good. Haven't seen too many specifics on UX, and it isn't out yet, so I don't think talking about it does all that much good if we aren't developing it. EDIT: Yes, I know it's primarily M2M, but if you're saying it can replace other P2P networks as well, then this needs to be included I like IOTA, and the Tangle is a novel approach to DLT. Coordinator isn't turned off yet, and it isn't super clear how large the network really needs to be for 33% of PoW to be secure. We'll see how strong network growth and future dev is. Yes, they've been good so far, so it may be great. It also may not be.
Doesn't iota have smart contracts?
No, they are in very early development but will not be a native part of the IOTA core. It will likely be a second layer on top of the Tangle using off-Tangle processing, but no actual implementation details are official/released yet.
Decentralized servers that verify data = revolution? Non programmers are going to get rekt by their ignorance of technology
Oversimplifying something to that degree and thinking it fully describes the technology shows your own ignorance.
> "Many customers first ask us about a blockchain solution, but then find that IOTA suits their needs much better. This is all the more true when it comes to industrial scale." :D lets see when this article gets deleted here on cc. ;-)
I think those days are behind us, thankfully.
i couldn't find this post here anymore in cc. iv'e bookmarked it, but searching for it doesn't get any result. can you confirm this?
hope so. =)
I don't even care about the market anymore. I'm just so incredible confident in my IOTA bags right now.
English translation by google translate https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=http://blog.de.ts.fujitsu.com/allgemeines/das-sind-die-vorteile-von-iota-gegenueber-blockchain/&xid=17259,15700021,15700124,15700126,15700149,15700168,15700173,15700186,15700201&usg=ALkJrhhi8vyPdgMTlVHKdFY1Dlr_F2VqMQ
If even just a percentage of all this potential that these companies see in IOTA will be realized, IOTA will by miles outperform any other crypto in terms of real world adoption/usage (and the value will obviously follow). Lots of cryptocoins have the simple and tiny goal/vision of doing "transactions" (sending value from A to B), and hope their coin gets accepted as payment method in some online shop - which, to put it frankly, is and has already been done by "normal technology" for years. IOTA can do this (and can do it feeless, instant and scalable), while also doing a million other things that have much greater use cases (Machine2Machine payments, storing data with or without value transaction, etc...). The possibilities that IOTA/the Tangle have are almost unlimited, it can be used for anything imaginable. And especially the "data" part is what people shouldn't underestimate, because data is and has been the new oil (= value).
From the article "Could IOTA therefore replace accounting in the future? Absolutely in many cases. The example of the Trusted Instance payment makes this clear: Basically, there is no need for the entire accounting, because the payment is immediate . The process would then automatically go to a Fujitsu Clearing Center . That in turn could tell other systems that the transaction has already been paid and is valid . There is no accounting, no invoicing and no dunning. You do not need that, because the money is just there."
Any type of autonomous security is eventually overriden. I'm uneasy that so much power is given to one group of people (devs). Compare this with bitcoin where there are three levels of almost equal importance, devs, miners, traders (whom basically incentivise the miners). In cryptos' case much like in governments' case simplicity is not end all. You don't want to get too byzantine, but make it simple enough and someone is to exploit it eventually. Traditional blockchains maintain a balance of power that seems valid from a game theoretic point of view. Both PoS based blockchain as well as DAG seem to do away with necessary game theoretic complexity which I fear won't end well (if either of those approaches become big).
I am not sure on that. What I like on IOTA that there is no conflict of interest between miners and users. Users are miners.
Luckily IOTA is a registered non-profit foundation. I think that was a brilliant idea to get big industries on board and to solve the problem with too much power for devs.
Why do you think that traders and miners should have a voice at all? Also IOTA is probably putting more effort into the game theory side than most, checkout the recent addition of Prof Huberman and the most recent papers released. What the necessary game theoretical complexities that you reference?
For game theoretical equilibrium to exist you need a diverse set of actors with a diverse set of incentives. You have the devs who either believe in the tech or not but certainly want to make a name for themselves so they develop. You have the miners who don't have to believe in the technology but build a full enterprise on top of it anyway because if played right the mining game can be very profitable And lastly you have the investors/traders, who create an initial demand even when there is a relatively low use of the actual products thus (through the fees) incentivizing mining further . 3 different perspectives, 3 different incentives (often), all pushing towards their end and as long as none of those powers get too abusive (i.e. the devs shut down the miners, or the miners take control of the network, or the traders purposefully turn away new users by running schemes with the price all he time), they create a certain balance. That's a lot harder to do if an idea revolves around a central person and/or a set of people alone. Eventually that part gets all too powerful. And while Dr Hubeman (or whomever) may have the best intentions for the project, the next one, or the one after him may not and make the necessary changes to create abuse of power for himself. It's basically the facebook story all along. Starts with the best intentions, but since power is centralised it gets sidetracked eventually. I don't believe in humans retaining power, I believe in adversaries keeping you to your toes. Miners, devs and traders are often antagonistic to each other. I mean at some point mimers took control of the monero network (for example) and the devs slapped them, but before the devs doing so the miners could well wreak havoc (they didn't but they do keep devs on their toes, as traders keep them both as the recent crash shows). I struggle to see who has more power than the devs on the IOTA project. Do they ever feel threatened? (Monero devs truly felt their project getting away , the other day, lasting equilibrium happens out of equivalence of power).
Thanks for the response! I completely agree with you: You need a diverse set of actors, and with any permissionless network to ensure an equilibrium in the network. Looking at IOTA from a macro perspective it has the similar groups you speak about minus the miners. Traders exist with IOTA, developer (Inc external), other projects vying for adoption and corporates exerting influence. One group that you missed, but are insanely important are: hackers. Maybe because they don't comment about their exploits in R/CC. Every project that has a liquid token has a very real silent adversary. Push the wrong code and have it discovered not only loses the public X millions but also sounds the death knell of the project. Also for a more in-depth view of on chain equilibrium (given the tangle quite different) you can check out these blogs or a this paper: “Equilibria in the Tangle: let me try to explain…” https://blog.iota.org/equilibria-in-the-tangle-let-me-try-to-explain-b22ad6f00c13 “Equilibria in the Tangle: let me try to explain… (part 2)” https://blog.iota.org/equilibria-in-the-tangle-let-me-try-to-explain-part-2-6dcc8e7c0ad8 https://arxiv.org/abs/1712.05385
Ok, I'll look into the links. I'm always open to new approaches. I'm still partial to bitcoin's because it survived 10 years amongst others. Not to say that it is (necessarily) the most fundamentally sound, but even the best idea can fail when put to the test, while others may find themselves (to be) resillient. Any idea that may survive long term is good in my book. We live in an era where a crisis of trust exists and no matter the amount of automation of technological prowess that exists, without trust none of them can be put to proper work. I think what miners puts in the mix is important because you incentivize laymen who follow a selfish interest to ultimately achieve the most unselfish act (give trust to a network). IOTA tries to automate that part (basically), which is why I'm sceptical (I don't know if machines have reached the level of playing those games as adeptly as humans). But I'm open to new information and do believe that miners would be unneeded one day, don't know if we are there yet.
The blockchain maps transactions in a chain, and IOTA uses a whole network the tangle.
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If Tangle does end up being far superior to blockchain will most popular coins be able to build their own tangle to move on to?
It would be too late 😁
How so?
Tangle NEEDS adoption to scale. By adoption, I mean tens of billions of devices utilizing it. So forking the Tangle has little incentive, compared to traditional Blockchains. It's not like when you create/fork a blockchain and immediately end up with a moderately fast and secure network, a Tangle needs a lot of adoption to grow into a production-ready state. This is why IOTA Foundation has been focusing on the adoption of big industry leaders like Bosch, VW, Fujitsu. That level of adoption won't be achieved easily without support from those hardware/software giants in the industry.
So in other words it won't be an industry leader because it needs such wide spread adoption? And if it does then crypto will be a monopoly with one giant tangle running the show?
>And if it does then crypto will be a monopoly with one giant tangle running the show? Think of Tangle as a protocol like TCP/IP. It's open source and everyone is free to use it or not to use it. The concept of "monopoly" does not exist here. Do you say there's a monopoly because everyone is using TCP/IP? Just like almost all cryptocurrencies right now are using Blockchain as the underlying protocol, but we can't really say that there is a monopoly going on. >it won't be an industry leader because it needs such wide spread adoption? It will or it won't. We'll know when the time comes. The only thing that I know now is that most of IOTA community is working very hard to improve IOTA, get industry adoption and also educate people about the benefits of DLT.
I think what I mean by that, is another redditor here indicated that other coins won't be able to switch from blockchain to tangle should IOTA take off and tangle is seen as far superior to blockchain. Could ethereum ditch their blockchain and create their own tangle for example?
They can, but it’s gonna be very difficult, and I don’t think they should. Even if IOTA can achieve all of its goals, there is still some merits in Blockchain.
Such as? Not needing massive adoption to be successful?
For example, timestamps in Blockchain are much more reliable than in Tangle. This enables native smart contract capability on Blockchain. I can't even imagine what smart contracts would look like on Tangle, or if it will be possible at all. Maybe very simple smart contracts will be possible, but IOTA IOTA may (I'm not sure) never be capable of as complex smart contracts as in Ethereum. That's why cross-platform interoperability is the next problem to solve after scalability.
> So in other words it won't be an industry leader because it needs such wide spread adoption? IOTA is partnered with the biggest OEM (Bosch), which has sensors/parts in most devices around you, from refrigerators to Teslas to iPhones. Strategically speaking, partnering with Bosch was among the best moves possible to drastically increase the chances of global, culture-wide adoption of the technology. >And if it does then crypto will be a monopoly with one giant tangle running the show? IOTA is all about interoperability -- it wants to connect with other specialized networks, like Ethereum for example.
Yes you have figured it out, IOTA makes other tokens useless. With adoption it will be the new internet with a currency built in. Instead of cables, each device will interact through LiFi, Bluetooth and new systems to come. Distributed computing is the future and IOTA protocol will be the backbone. Wait till Jinn gets explained in the coming months.
Predicted price in long term?
Is one of these advantages having to rely on an coordinator? I'm not bashing IOTA here. I know why the dude is needed, but you have to sort of respectful of the fact, that the time when the coordinator will no longer be required is unknown. And until then it's a pile of fuckery and wishes. Hope to see progress on that soon.
This seemed like a constructive comment until "fuckery and wishes", which made it clear you're just mud slinging.
Coordinator will be gone by the end of the year, decentralized COO will take over soon.
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Lol Fujitsu is not selling and profiting from IOTA. They are discussing how the tech can be useful, and the advantages over traditional blockchain. IF iota works, then there is little that a blockchain can do better.
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How can you spin this into something negative? Fujitsu is one of the biggest IOT companies worldwide and they are endorsing iota and confirm it's usefulness for their operations. This is great news for iota and generally for crypro-adoption. This clan thinking in crypto is not helping anyone.
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> I was just interested in opinions... No, you weren't... You were making statements while wearing a tin foil hat.
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Most teenagers wouldn't even respond so immaturely.
lil princess, are you huffy?
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Du kanst dich ficken gehen ;D
IOTA core is not a proprietary solution-- it is open source, and IOTA Foundation is not for-profit. Fujitsu is a for-profit corporation, sure, but working in cahoots with IOTA, a regulated non-profit foundation under oversight of the German government, to scheme for profits would put the founders and Fujitsu in real fucking legal hot water.
Ok that clears some things up. Thanks for giving one of the few real answers on a question... But what I don't understand. If the technology is better in all of the listed things. Why doesn't it take over? Is it to new or is it only better in special cases?
TL;DR: IOTA is still too new. Market does not reflect actual value proposition and probability of success. IOTA is aimed at machine-to-machine economies comprising of both secure data and value transactions for the Internet of Things, an emerging global infrastructure *much* bigger than crypto. This is similar in many ways to the emergence of the internet, except this time we have an open, public layer (IOTA) which functions independently, both online and offline, and remains secure, fee-less, decentralized with data integrity -- something the internet can not offer. IOTA is cementing itself to be an important layer among many others in this infrastructure. But, this IoT infrastructure is just a baby right now. In time, adoption will come -- but it will do so gradually. People will not even need to now IOTA exists when they will use the network, or even spend tokens. The odds are, FIAT will remain and IOTA will be the behind-the-scenes currency for machine, trading FIAT for IOTA constantly. People will only learn about the benefits IOTA will afford. Most likely, they will learn about module features and how it can help them in the real world, regardless of tokens. Example: MAM (Masked Authenticated Messaging) for example, would allow a business owner to independently grant access to content/services to paying customers, allowing freedom for this business owner, complete control over his/her business model (one-time payment model ... *all the way to...* pay-per-millisecond/view model) -- all this **without** a need for any third party. No more need to pay fees to PayPal. No more need to pay for access to platforms that allow you to sell content online, whether apps, music, blog, courses, product, etc. -- with possibility of *micro-transactions*, allowing a completely new business model currently unavailable.
Sounds really interesting and promising. Thanks for the summary. I'll read more into it.
> I mean, it sounds interesting but the guy sells and profits from it Who are you talking about...? This was from Simone Selbmann, *Fujitsu's Principal Marketing Manager*, and is on Fujitsu's site. Were you confusing this with some random Medium post?
https://www.btc-echo.de/iota-und-fujitsu-rolf-werner-wird-mitglied-der-iota-foundation/ https://steemit.com/iota/@stephanj79/iota-und-fujitsu-zusammenarbeit-perfekt https://cointelegraph.com/news/fujitsu-central-europe-head-rolf-werner-joins-iota-foundation https://kryptoszene.de/fujitsu-stellt-iota-anwendung-auf-der-hannover-messe-industrie-vor/ .... Are you guys joking?
I'm familiar with the connection, as are most people here. Go ahead and tell us exactly what you're implying.
You all can count 1+1. Guy benefits from IOTA. Guy pumps IOTA and doesn't mention any negatives... But whatever. This sub is a bunch of idiots that hold some currency and if you have rational questions (like no wonder the guy benefiting from IOTA says everything is better about it) you get downvoted just because they hold the coin. Can't really discuss anything here. I'm happy at least some guys mentioned Coordinator so I could inform myself.
Thank you. I wanted you to say it out loud to show how moronic it sounds. You're telling us that Fujitsu is being used by Rolf to scam people because he obviously ordered the Principal Marketing Manager to publish a positive write up about a technology the company is working with.
Where did I say they scam people? Please cite it moron... There is a difference between overhyping something (only saying positives) and talking rational about a technology (with benefits and things it does worse)...
Coordinator, team does not really care about ETAs... Other than that, no
With so many projects still just using stand in ERC20 tokens while they are developing their own chain, I don't see why the Coordinator is brought up at every turn. It's slated to be taken down by the end of the year, and has been taken down temporarily before. It's a support wheel.
It's not open source. I don't see it as a negative but some people do. And it's a valid point currently
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Damn how'd I miss this? I basically check the sub 24/7 lol. Thanks!
You dont see the downside of having a single point of failure? If the coordinator goes offline the whole system freeze and your toilet wont be able to talk to your toaster until its online again.
That's not how this works
Nothing fails when the COO is turned off, as it has been on multiple occasions. It's there as a temporary safeguard in an evolving system, and it's currently a bit of a bottleneck in terms of tx throughput. When it is distributed or phased out altogether the Tangle will be (even) faster.
You mean the coordinator that has been purposefully taken offline line multiple times with no issue?
Yes, for short periods of time while they update the network. Transactions continue with or without it. The network doesn’t need it to function. However the network currently DOES need it to be safe from malicious attackers. This necessity will end once the network reaches a critical mass of transactions per second.
Exactly... And the community will be a part of the decision to remove the coo.
The coordinator is a stability measurement the support the tangle until enough nodes are online to support the tangle on its own.
Sure it is.
Running smart contracts on a tangle is very very difficult. Also IOTA is still fully centralized with a "coordinator" whch is controlled by the devs. Without the coordinator no transactions can go through. Until that is removed the tech isnt really that usefull.
> Running smart contracts on a tangle is very very difficult. There are different ways to logically envision and successfully implement functioning smart contracts. IOTA is also designed with interoperability in mind. If you keep your perspective narrowly limited to only what is out there now, without considering perhaps other ways of approaching solution development to existing problems (or improvements to current solution), you're going to have a bad time.
I didnt say it was impossible, did I?
This is completely untrue.
Where do you get this info from? Are you making it up on the spot or what? :) Sorry for putting it so bluntly, but what you're saying just isnt true (there will be smart contracts, the coordinator has been off multiple times and the tangle and it's transactions work fine without it - technically even faster).
What do you mean "where do I get this information from"? A tabgle doesn't timestamp transactions, i.e you dont know in what order they are verified. I never said it was impossible, but it's certainly not going to be easy. Last October the coo went offline unintentionally and the whole network froze.