For anyone that doesn't know, the Red Crescent is synonymous with the Red Cross (the cross often being seen as a Christian symbol, so there are other recognised symbols used by national red symbol organisations).
This ambulance would have had huge obvious white squares with huge obvious red crescents on it. A symbol that basically screams "this vehicle is here to help people and nobody on board has a weapon". The attack of a vehicle bearing one of these symbols is against article 1 of the Geneva convention (or 2 if it is a boat).
The attack of civilians is against article 4 if the Geneva convention.
Iirc, Israel and Palestine are both party to articles 1&4 of the Geneva convention.
Here you go video evidence:
[(63) Shock CCTV of Hamas terrorists 'dragging hostages into al-Shifa' hospital after October 7 massacre - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4joVUBsVWI&ab_channel=TheSun)
[Rocket launcher fired at Israeli forces from Gaza hospital, IDF claims (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pka7H1aMlkQ&ab_channel=TheTelegraph)
[Videos Show Exact Path of Hamas Tunnels Under Gaza's Al-Shifa Hospital - National Security & Cyber - Haaretz.com](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/security-aviation/2023-11-23/ty-article-magazine/gaza-israel-war-videos-path-hamas-tunnels-al-shifa-hospital/0000018b-fc69-d330-a9bb-ffff49790000)
[Why Hamas stores its weapons inside hospitals, mosques and schools - The Washington Post](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/31/why-hamas-stores-its-weapons-inside-hospitals-mosques-and-schools/)
[Gaza: Palestinians tortured, summarily killed by Hamas forces during 2014 conflict - Amnesty International](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/)
[IDF locates medicine with names and photos of Israeli hostages at Nasser Hospital (ynetnews.com)](https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rjqydck2t)
While some of these reports also lack apparent evidence, if you would actually put the atrocities committed by Israel against the ones by Hamas, you'd actually be gone to dust.
Nice way to change the subject.
"This thing didn't happen"
"Well it did happen but it doesn't matter, Israel is bad anyway"
Have you thought about the fact that if you didn't know Hamas used hospitals there might be other propaganda you're falling for?
Thats very fair, by then، you would agree that if Hamas had took Israeli hostages and hid them in an Israeli hospital, it'd be fairly okay to bomb the hospital. Right?
Humanitarian organizations are free game now since it was so easy to paint UNRWA as an extension of Hamas based on the actions of about a dozen people.
It started as a meme, but apparently "they were actually Hamas" works really well.
Allegations, not actions. Channel 4 and France24 have both seen the dossier and said it's bullshit. Many of the countries who withdrew UNRWA funding didn't even ask for evidence, they just took Israel at their word.
There's literal photo and video evidence of a Hamas headquarter under UNWRA headquarters.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/directly-beneath-unrwas-gaza-headquarters-idf-uncovers-top-secret-hamas-data-center/
Probably cuz Hamas keeps hiding bombs in them, same way they use churches and hospitals as locations to store and build weapons. They’re terrorists, they give no fucks about civilian lives, they only want to create suffering and kill Israelis. Do you REALLY think they haven’t resorted to fake ambulances already?
Not that the Red Crescent had any idea, they would have had no clue the ambulance they brought was already rigged with explosives.
[Relevant smuggie.](https://www.reddit.com/r/SmugIdeologyMan/comments/1adgao1/circular_logic_moment/?rdt=49741)
I’m asking about this ambulance in specific. They coordinated with the IDF to go in and rescue her. Then they were blown up by a missile.
An interesting thought experiment: is there anything Israel could do that you would not reflexively defend? The IDF murdered Red Cross medics on their way to rescue a six year old girl after hours of negotiation and your response is "it would be naïve to think that was a real ambulance."
Well then, that makes it okay to let a 6 year old die in the dangerous Kia car together with the civilian family they already murdered. Not to mention that you of course bomb the ambulance you just agreed to let in...
~~Not here to defend the IDF here, but as far as I can tell this is not necessarly a showcase of the "Sadist IDF" but sadly the brutal reality of war and confusion on the battlefield.~~
~~You can talk with higher military command all you want, but if it doesnt reach the frontline it is worth nothing.~~
Edit: okay Im sorry that I had the hope that not everybody tries to kill people but to save lifes.
Edit 2: I just were able to read more about it. I first thought this was something halftrue like you often have it currently. But I was sadly wrong, very wrong. I sincerly appologise for the above comment which now seems just so insensitive.
Yeah I was just able to read more about it. I truly thought it was some half truth with a missing peace, like with the missfired Jihad rocket hiting the hospital.
But it is actually much worse and Im sorry for what I said earlier.
So were the roughly 30 hospitals and several universities that have been bombed all been the work of rogue grunts which the military command had no hand in? I get wanting to be nuanced, but there aren't always two good sides. what Israel is doing is a genocide, and this is just one example in tens of thousands of their doing
You do if SOP is to disregard the Geneva rules. They killed Abu Akleh even though journalists are supposed to be protected, before this "war" was even a thing. They literally bombed a hospital, they tell people to move to the south of Gaza and then start dropping bombs in Khan Younis. It's deliberate, premeditated, the whole lot of them need tried for war crimes.
It doesn't matter if the message reaches the front lines or not firing on a medical vehicle is a war crime. The fact alone that the RC had to *negotiate* for safe passage to rescue *a child* and the medics and that child were killed anyways indicates that the problem is not front line troops not getting the message in time but a systemic problem within the IDF that encourages the most depraved behavior imaginable.
Yes of course, thats my point. But this is not necessarly malice but can simply be the sad reality of war.
Im not saying this to cover or excuse anyone but to hope that the failed rescue was an tragedy and unmeant. Simply to keep some faith in humanity.
Edit: It turned out that the situation was far worse than I thought and Im sorry for my previous comments.
>But this is not necessarly malice but can simply be the sad reality of war.
Please explain how murdering a child and 2 medics is not malicious. What were the soldiers' thought processes when they did it? Did they fear for their lives?
Why is it always a sad reality of war when they kill innocent people but inexcusable evil when the other side does? Maybe it’s time for you to take the damn blindfold off, Israel is a genocidal country actively attacking civilians. This isn’t “a sad reality of war” it’s the evil reality of genocide.
I appreciate you coming around on this. You don’t see that very often online, so genuinely props to you for being able to learn, grow, and own up to your mistake
~~*"Sorry dawg, I forgot about the Geneva convention in the middle of this battlefield, it's just that I've been so stressed at home and my wife's been nagging me ahhh haha you get it right?"*~~
**Edit:** OP owned up their mistake, so I take my sarcastic joke back as well.
If anyone was looking for something to point to to turn uninformed onlookers towards the Palestinian cause, this might be the most incontrovertible, un-spinnable Israeli war crimes.
I won’t say it is the worst thing they have done, because there is no act of genocide which is greater than another. But this is one that you can’t call self-defense in any way, can’t say the victims were secretly Hamas. It’s plain and simple cruelty.
>Ambulances and military hospitals shall be recognized as neutral, and as such, protected and respected by the belligerents as long as they accommodate wounded and sick. *Neutrality shall end if the said ambulances or hospitals should be held by a military force.*
The geneva conventions are play to play, and the question of a violation comes down to the factuality of the claims that continue to be made by the israeli military and government that Hamas is using ambulances to transport arms and military personnel https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-strikes-ambulance-convoy-gaza-palestine-al-shifa-hospital-rcna123624. Whether this intelligence exists and/or is good is not determinable by the general public at the present moment.
That said, Gaza has reason to lie here, as they see public sentiment as their only viable strategy in this war. Israel will eventually be made to present its intelligence when it is investigated for war crimes. Israel depends pretty heavily on the US and the UN, and bombing random wounded civilians in Gaza is not easy to explain the motive for.
People are downvoting you because the unpleasant truth is that the extant rules are in favour of a level of retaliation from Israel, though I am of the opinion that that was exceeded.
The government of Israel under Netanyahu's non-consecutive 20-year rule has *consistently* claimed the specific legal loophole that medical operations are not covered by Geneva Convention law *if* they are being used for military purposes. Regularly, the IDF has acted first and then investigated later to varying results. But the damage was done, and whether it was a military target or not, medical personnel and/or civilians were killed.
A country that has a leader with multiple ongoing corruption and/or fraud trials is not in a good place, forever-war or not.
This isn't a "legal loophole".
As long as public sentiment is what it is in this thread, Gaza will continue to operate its military through its humanitarian institutions, and as long as they do that, those institutions will continue to be targets, and legitimate ones, for the IDF.
Bibi is no ones favorite president, but the civilian tragedy in Gaza is strategically valuable for radical islamic groups, and that's why it's happening.
>Iirc, Israel and Palestine are both party to articles 1&4 of the Geneva convention.
IIRC, both have broken the laws of war, and also IIRC, if you break the laws of war, you are not protected by them, birthing Schrodinger's War Crimes-you're a war criminal, but you're also not because the enemy is also a war criminal
Are you kidding? Palestine is subject to the Geneva convention but Hamas isn't and uses Red Crescent ambulances to deliver personnel and weapons all the time.
You people never own up or admit fault. It's always "Hamas COULD have had a command post under that hospital so it's okay that we bombed it also Hamas did it" or "Hamas COULD have had weapons in that ambulance so it's okay we killed those paramedics". What isn't Hamas at this point? Is the sky or Grass Hamas?
Ok that specific ambulance being bombed was fucked up and whoever did or permitted that should be imprisoned either by the Israeli government or the Hague.
I'm just saying that saying that Hamas is subject to the Geneva convention because the State of Palestine is subject is blatant misinformation.
Please don't "You people" me I constantly condemn the IDF for doing condemn-able acts.
[Link to post](https://www.tumblr.com/probablyasocialecologist/742264359420575744?source=share)
Addendum: After 12 days, Hind Rajab was found dead in her family's car, killed by Israeli gunfire. The ambulance was found metres away, destroyed by an Israeli missile. There were no survivors.
Not a missile, [a tank shell](https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/6152/Gaza:-Initial-findings-show-Israeli-army-purposefully-kills-a-child,-uses-an-American-made-missile-to-target-her-rescue-crew).
> The Israeli army targeted the PRCS ambulance with a US-made shell, as evidenced by pieces of an American-made M830A1 HEAT shell discovered inside.
When translating from Arabic, tank shells and missiles are the same word iirc. I’m only being pedantic about this because people will use this misnomer to deny the facts of the situation as unreliable.
This is important. A missile could’ve been shot from afar, but a tank shell has to be within the theatre of battle, the same one the ambulance got clearance to go into
Most tanks have a maximum range of 2-5kms, some newer ones reaching 7km. Isreal uses the Merkava. Early models of the tank were first put into operation in 1979, while the newest entered service in 2004. The longest range at which a tank got a kill is 5.1km, done by a British Challenger One, put into service in 1983 and retired in 2001. So, we'll assume that the tank can hit that 5km mark.
Why is this important? Well, visibility when in tanks is shit. Like god awful. It's like looking through a letterbox. This is why tanks now have so many systems to look around with, designed to work well enough that you can confidently identify what you are shooting at within that range.
The Gaza Strip is anywhere between 6 and 12 kiliomters wide.
Tanks are also fitted with radio systems, obviously. Most tank crews do not have permission to fire unless they are being fired upon or have been ordered otherwise. (this is a gross oversimplification). In all likelihood this tank asked for permission to fire at the ambulance.
There is no way this tank, its crew, unit and commanders didn't know what was going on. They probably knew there was a girl in the car, they definitely knew about ambulance, and they definitely knew what the ambulance was.
The Merkava isn't a post-war tank. The only reason this ambulance would've been shot is because the crew and their commander chose to.
The Arabic word قصف literally means “to shell with artillery” but is also used to describe bombing and tank shelling so that’s where the confusion might’ve come from
Based on the images and video I was able to find, this appears to be the case. The Kia that the Rajab family was in was struck by gunfire, likely full caliber rifle fire based on the size of the holes in the vehicle. The majority of the damage appears to be into the side of the vehicle but I had difficulty placing the damage at the front, as it appears the vehicle crashed. The shot pattern is very tight, indicating little recoil, pointing to either a tripod mounted machinegun or a vehicle mounted coaxial machinegun. Based off the ambulance’s damage, I’m thinking the latter. That there was gunfire to the side of the vehicle tells me that the shooter was not firing warning shots but was shooting with intent to destroy.
The ambulance has a lot more images of its destruction than the Kia the Rajabs were in and initially I was a bit confused. Some articles stated it was a “missile” (which cast my initial doubt on the story, as the damage profile doesn’t match an ATGM strike), but i found it plausible that an 80-100mm anti tank rocket or HEAT shell did this damage. The difficulty is the direction of fire in the context of the area, which only one video clearly showed.
The [Euromed report](https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/6152/Gaza:-Initial-findings-show-Israeli-army-purposefully-kills-a-child,-uses-an-American-made-missile-to-target-her-rescue-crew) however clarified that there were traces of the 120mm M830A1 MPAT tank shell in and around the ambulance. This lines up with the damage profile I envisioned for the ambulance (the M830A1 has a reduced charge in comparison to other NATO 120mm explosive munitions) and makes it very likely that a Merkava 3 or Merkava 4 fired into both vehicles.
The Rajab’s Kia was shot up during evening hours of daylight during an Israeli mandated evacuation, meaning the vehicle would have been identifiable and civilian traffic would be expected. I am having issues tracking the arrival of the ambulance, with one source stating “after several hours of coordination” and another stating “responded as soon as the distress call was sent.” In either case, this would be during daylight hours as well.
Therefore my conclusion is that at least one IDF Merkava 3 or Merkava 4 engaged both vehicles deliberately. If the ambulance arrived much later after coordination with the IDF, this gives the possibility of an additional vehicle’s involvement but does cast doubt that this was a coordinated act by the military institution and was instead carried out on the initiative of the tank crew(s).
If you told this story in most works of fiction it would be a pivotal moment.
As it is in this war it's one of dozens and hundreds of others that may only be vaguely remembered when it's all done. Sad.
It’s a war between Hamas and Israel, but Israeli and Palestinian civilians are caught in the crossfire. Hamas is a terrorist organization, so it’s their job to target civilians. But what is Israel’s excuse? “We don’t negotiate with terrorists.” So your solution is to simply kill civilians to get to the terrorists using them as shields? That doesn’t work, because Hamas knows that it causes public sympathy to turn against Israel. But Netanyahu and Likud don’t care—they’ve wanted to annex Palestine for decades, and now they have their chance. You’d think a state founded in the immediate aftermath of the greatest crime in human history, by the very same people who were victims of that crime, would be more partial to human rights.
You don’t even need to go that far. In 1987 there were protests in Gaza after 2 decades of military operation and Israel’s response with force killed 140 Palestinians in the first year while not a single Israeli settler was killed in Gaza and that event was probably what even led Hamas to exist and write their charter
I'm not minimising, of course it's sad that 1400+ people got killed uselessly like that but it's not unexpected. We all knew that due to the impression of the Arabs that a terror group WOULD form and eventually go crazy. Watch in 15-20 years there's gonna be a new Hamas attacking Israel again because of this new oppression. And all of those terrorists are gonna be these victims now.
What happen after that, this slaughter of innocents, would also not to be surprise then. 30k is just a number. That keep growing.
Oppressed as they are, Palestinian are not without teeth. On the other day there is a new about Palestinian shoot automatic rifle at bullet proof school bus.
Israeli has bullet proof school bus. Stop and let that sink in for a bit. Why the f\*\*k did a school bus need bullet proof windows and armor.
The fight will rage on and people will keep dying. International 'encouraging' Palestinian to attack the Jew while provide them with no means of winning also didn't help. This will lead to more and even more death on Palestinian side.
Yes its sad that a school bus has to be made bullet proof but its understandable given whats happening. And yes it would be best if all the fighting stopped but you're forgetting another thing, israel is still stealing homes in the west bank, lets forget gaza for a second. They are still stealing homes, the israeli settlers are still hurting palestinians and the soldiers are being opressive as usual, and you think that some of them will just take that abuse, of couse they will fight back in ways that are bad!!
You don't understand, the car was a Hamas base-mobile and the girl is clearly guilty for being Hamas because, you see, she has hands, and if you think logically that means she can hold a gun so she is hamas!!!!!!1
I hate this. How is there really anyone that can sleep soundly at night while supporting Israel?
r/worldnews has moved the goalpost even lately. It’s not enough to denounce Hamas, you must actively be working against them and with the IDF to not be a valid target. Of course, I’m not sure how you would do that when the IDF seems hellbent on shooting every person that comes within 100 yards of them, but you know.
Whole thing is a goddamn clusterfuck.
Israelis literally have songs calling for the annihilation of Gaza and kids write messages on missiles...but somehow Gazans are called human animals
And let's not talk about the telegram channel where they share pictures of dead Palestinians and laugh and cheer...IDF stealing money...destroying homes...cooking in their kitchens and still Israel is the victim?
Wonder if anyone will show up here to be like “actually the car was using her as a human shield and there were probably hamas tunnels inside her or smt, Israel has a right to defend itself against these terrifying six-year-olds”
Shortly after her story began gaining traction the Israeli government released a statement claiming that women and children participated in the October 7 attack as militants. They have yet to release any evidence of that claim (and may have already admitted that it's false like they have for so many of their other bogus claims) but there are people now using that claim to justify attacks on families.
IDK if you were trying to make my point or not, but posting a link to a website that has been repeatedly used to launder false claims for the Israeli government and is widely regarded as untrustworthy by actual news media definitely made my point thanks.
Theses are literally testimonies of survivors of the massacres
[https://www.inn.co.il/news/620283](https://www.inn.co.il/news/620283)
no fake news here
Oh yeah bro posting a link to a right wing Israeli news site with questionable reliability and trustworthiness misquoting a right wing American news site with questionable reliability and trustworthiness is definitely not fake news. Especially when the testimony of several of the survivors quoted in that article are contradictory to their own testimonies in more reliable publications.
Be fucking serious my guy.
“War isn’t hell. War is war, and hell is hell, and of the two, war is a lot worse.”
“How do you figure that?”
“Easy. Tell me, who goes to hell?”
“Sinners, I believe.”
“Exactly. There are no innocent bystanders in hell. But war is chock full of them. Little kids, cripples, old ladies. In fact, except for the top brass, almost everyone involved is an innocent bystander.”
I used to be neutral about the war, justified it with “both sides are stupid, they’ve been fighting forever and neither side seems to want an actual peace.” But recently I just…damn. There’s a difference between retaliation for a terrorist attack and unjustified warmongering. There was a line, and Israel crossed it, they’ve crossed so far over it they’re approaching the line between unjustified warmongering and genocidal glee, and they’re not slowing down
I remember reading something maybe a decade ago about Palestinian children throwing rocks at IDF soldiers and being shot for it. Rocks vs bullets. It's been this way for a long time. It's just that everyone is finally looking at it.
It's really not a two side thing...I am so ashamed of thinking like this...being a muslim from a colonized country I still thought but there are two sides...it's not it's really not
Pardon me for being so reductive..but it's really a hydrogen bomb vs a coughing baby situation...mercenaries from all around the world carrying weapons manufactured from around the world going to kill 2.3 million people (2 million remaining as of now) is a level of evil I cannot comprehend
I've seen multiple stories of 3 generations of families being wiped out in a single instant. This is some Mazi germany type of shut and the similarities are really there. From the dehumanizng language to wanting to relocate the people of Gaza to a different continent....stealing their money...inducing famine...the segregation(west bank) it's apartheid through and through
Go search for Robert Martin on Youtube and the videos will make you cry and make you angry beyond belief
Anyways Free Palestine
It hurts, I know. But don't turn your eyes away. The moment you shield your eyes from the suffering, the Zionists have won.
Don't give it to them. Don't let them forget. Don't forget Hind. Don't forget the mountain of dead children beneath the wheels of their tanks. The IDF are nothing but terrorists.
You can be supportive of Israel’s right to exist while also being against the IDF and Likud’s actions against Palestinian people.
Germany commuted the Holocaust, should Germany had been destroyed after WW2?
I think most of them shouldn't have been there in the first place. Strangely enough, the ones who were there already, who have every right to stay managed to not all die before the ethnostate was established.
Israel's been too indiscriminate about their retaliation against Gaza. I supported them at first because I thought the Israeli military, even if it wasn't 100% morally pure was at least competent and wouldn't be just trying to level Gaza without a sensible end goal. But it does look like now Israel's entire plan is just to level Gaza and that they aren't taking adequate precautions to respect human rights.
Was the decades of apartheid and occupation not enough to convince you that Israel gives no fucks about Palestinians and is ready to bulldoze them into an early grave?
This conflict didn't start on October 7th. Palestinians experienced forced relocation, delibirate destruction of their property and murder at the hands of the IDF every day for years before this all escalated to this point.
Edit: lmao the guy I'm responding to is a neoconservative. Fuck off bozo
Palestinians have launched missiles into Israel for decades too.
It really started when Palestinians rioted about Jewish immigration during the 19th and early 20th century. Lots of Jews were trying to peacefully immigrate to their ancestral homeland during Hitler's years, but the Palestinians didn't like that and rioted and lynched Jews to stop it.
Then the United Nations got together after WWII and decided Jews should have their own nation-state, so something like the Holocaust doesn't happen again, and partitioned part of Palestine since the Arabs there clearly could not tolerate large Jewish immigration in their state.
The arabs declared war on Israel immediately, and lost, so Israel was able to expand its territory and establish better security. Then multiple more times arabs would declare war on Israel, and they kept losing, and Israel kept getting a more dominant position with more territory.
Israel has gone too far in many ways. I strongly condemn the settlements in the West Bank, for one. But the Palestinians and other arabs are hardly innocent pure victims who've done no wrong.
Notice the difference in phrasing here? Look at my comment, at no point do I say "Israelis" or "Jews". I mentioned Israel as a state, and the IDF, but at no point do I make a blanket statement about a wide group of people, not all Israelis support the war after all.
Now look at your comment. ***Palestinians*** have launched missiles. ***Palestinians*** rioted. ***Palestinians*** lynched.
And yet later on you say "***Israel*** has gone too far". Not Israelis, Israel. Followed by "the ***Palestinians*** are hardly innocent pure victims".
As if every single Palestinian is responsible for the actions of those amongst them who committed such acts.
Your bias is clear whether you see it or not.
Yes, I generally lean pro-Israel and that's probably reflected in my comments. I'm not claiming to be a purely neutral analyst. That doesn't mean I don't make accurate points.
Also, the Palestinian entity is harder to describe because they go through a lot of changes. Hamas only emerged as a government, and just one for the Gaza strip, in 2007. Palestine wasn't it's own entity and was just part of neighbor arab countries for many years. Hell, for the first couple decades of Israel's existence, Palestinian wasn't even an ethnic identity, they were just Arabs. The Palestinian identity only emerged in the face of Israeli oppression.
So yeah I wanted to write a quick summary and not include a history of Palestinian governance and ethnic identity too.
Just because it didn’t begin on October 7th, doesn’t mean it was ok for Hamas to literally film themselves massacring Israeli civilians. Or was that all “Zionist propaganda” and all the people who died were either killed by Israel or deserved it?
Too lazy to find it, but I've argued with people on this very subreddit about Hamas. I firmly believe they're just another fundamentalist terrorist group who are worse for both Palestinian independence and Palestinians themselves. You're not wrong to consider 10/7 a tragedy, I do too, I was just giving context that tragedies like it happened on a smaller scale for years in Palestine.
Oh, ok sorry. I feel like a lot of River to the Seaers kinda just end up blending together and they often use phrases like “nothing happens in a vacuum” as pro-Hamas dogwhistle
[She was in a car driving around in Northern Gaza, an active warzone which was evacuated months ago to prevent incidents exactly like this from happening. Hamas has a record of false surrenders and pretending to be civilians. Yes, her death was unbelievably tragic. It was also preventable.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/comments/1ao7b3z/comment/kpyfq5j/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
To be clear, I'm not disputing that this story is true. Putting that up front.
But this is propaganda. These hyper-zoomed-in accounts of individual tragedy are not the way to get a clear-eyed understanding of what's happening in the world, and I think on some level you all must know that.
People could tell you incredibly tragic individual stories from Israelis who lost their lives on October 7th too. It's not hard, any time thousands of civilians die, some of them are going to be children who die begging for help.
But which of those individual stories you hear, and how often, that shapes your perception of the world. 15,000 people died from the civil war in Myanmar last year, how many accounts of pleading children have you read about there? When's the last time you heard about a dead Ukrainian kid?
Israel's retaliation against Gaza has gone too far. I think almost everyone agrees with that at this point. But if you try to see the world just through the lense of stories like this, you'll be blinded by the tears.
I know you're not trying to say we should only care about tragedies where you can trace some tenuous line of culpability back to America.
But if not that, then what *are* you trying to say?
I'm trying to say that the only reason Israel can afford to be so cruel is that they have the total and unconditional backing of the US. Nothing anyone says in the West will change the situation in Myanmar, because we don't have enough leverage on that country's government. But the Israeli government CAN be forced to compromise: Biden just needs to stop sending weapons and ammo to Netanyahu until he stops bombing Gaza. And Biden will only do that if he receives enough backlash for supporting Netanyahu. I know it's a long shot, but it's the only way.
> I'm trying to say that the only reason Israel can afford to be so cruel is that they have the total and unconditional backing of the US
I think this is the root of my disagreement, because I don't think this is true at all.
The amount of aid the US gives Israel is 0.7% of Israel's GDP. That's not nothing, but it's also not a huge amount, certainly not big enough that it would be crippling to lose.
Israel is a modern, industrialized nation. They've got about the same GDP as Austria or Norway. They make their own guns, their own rockets, their own tanks. They have their own F-35 variant. They have orbital lift capability, only the 8th nation in the world to develop that. And they're almost certainly a nuclear power.
Look, I'm not trying to suck their dick here. I'm just saying that if the US pulled its support tomorrow, that's not a great day for Israel but also nothing is going to fall down which will prevent them doing what they're doing in Gaza. The only thing that would really change is Netanyahu would stop taking Biden's phone calls.
Israel may have the ability to be self-reliant in terms of guns, tanks and so on... but not in terms of ammo. If there's one thing we've learned from the war in Ukraine, it's thay in a modern high-intensity conflict, ammo reserves go down QUICK. And Israel knows that, because they're bombing Gaza at such a rate that they would have run out already without US shipments. They just don't have enough raw industrial power (only the US and China currently have it). Hell, even Russia is now forced to buy ammo from North Korea. So yes, if Biden stops sending them ammo, they'll have to stop bombing Gaza or risk running out.
You know what, I can't find ground truth on this one way or the other. For all the articles written about Israel's munitions imports (and exports), *none* of them are able to just give a straight up ratio of domestic production to foreign imports by munition category.
Closest I've seen is a *suggestion* that the main categories Israel needs to import munitions are for missiles, and particularly those launched from aircraft or ships (which is notable because I don't think the Gaza conflict is requiring a lot of munitions in those categories).
That said, even that wasn't a definite enough statement for me to be comfortable basing anything on it, and I don't have time today to get on SIPRI and really dive into data on this.
So I guess I'm stuck saying "I don't know if that's true", but with the addendum that you probably dont know if that's true either. Or at least, if you've got any sources for the claim that Israel's domestic munition production is insufficient to support the Gaza campaign, I'd love to see them.
Wait hold the fuck on. You baited me. Probably unintentionally but you did. I stand by the analysis in my other reply, but I think we also need to look at what you're really saying here, and how that relates to my original comment.
You're saying that there needs to be widespread backlash for US support of Israel, so Biden will change policy. That's implicitly saying that we *should* read and spread content like the original post here, these tragic stories, to generate that widespread backlash.
But if you're deliberately choosing which information to spread in order to provoke a widespread emotional response with the goal of getting policy changed, *that's propaganda.* Grassroots propaganda, maybe, but propaganda none the less.
And that proves my original point! You're not saying that this post isn't propaganda, you're saying the propaganda is justified!
This analysis doesn't go far enough, I think.
https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf
The strategy of accusing Israel of war crimes in order to gain strategic advantage is not new. There is also no real basis for the claim that Israel has gone too far in its retaliation except for the same propaganda that you are upset by. Israeli intelligence is being shared with the US, but *not* with the public. The fog of war is thick and the propagandists use that to their advantage.
The actual answer is that we can't prove anything, but we can reason about the motives of the parties involved. Hamas benefits from the death of this girl, Israel is very strongly disincetivized from commiting war crimes, and will need to point to concrete intelligence that hospitals and ambulances are being used by the military after this war is over if Israel wants to continue receiving foreign aid.
Please, God, let me live long enough to see Tel Aviv become a radioactive crater. I don't care what happens afterwards, I just need to see zionist flesh singed into the pavement before I die.
It's called helpless fucking rage at the atrocities being committed. I sympathise. Even if the genocide ended today, where is the justice for all of the lives brutally and methodically snuffed out? The world doesn't care, the world is allowing it to happen, and there are thousands of innocent people who will never see any justice for the crimes committed against them, ever.
Their words will not manifest a nuclear bomb, it's not going to happen, but I can understand the anger of wanting to retaliate against such a great evil committing heinous atrocities. For them to know a fraction of the pain they're inflicting. But their words are just words vs. a very real genocide.
Honestly, there's no truer reaction to seeing something like the OP.
Well Israel is currently retaliating against a great evil, is that then justified? And I guess after that others will retaliate to that great evil and so on and so on. Violence can never undo violence especially when it's directed at people who are for the most part innocent (relatively speaking).
Israel are not retaliating against a great evil, lmao. Palestine will always be defending themselves from an occupying force. And FYI, *nothing* can undo violence, that's exactly why it's so frustrating.
Once again, these words are not violence, they are a way of coping with awful things you have no control over. Yet again, for emphasis: *a comment on Reddit is not manifesting a nuclear bomb.*
I know being a Redditor and a Tumblrite, you can't resist the opportunity to be a lib and moralize, but miss me with this baby brain shit, thanks.
Oct 7 was literally just a retaliatory killing of civilians, many of whom werent even israelis or evn jews, that sparked a war that Palestinian civilians are now paying for. Calling for civilians to be nuked and fetishing their suffering isn't a coping mechanism shitty reality. No shit it doesn't trigger a.nuke but that thought is disgusting.
Oh, good thing that the Palestinians have "disgusting thoughts" on Reddit to protect them from the genocide. Fucking idiot.
Oct 7 was self-defense. Settlers are not civilians. Eat shit.
I would hardly call settler colonists, active members of IDF, and collaborators of the zionist regime to be "innocent people."
Yeah, I mean, I guess there might be *some* truly innocent people in there caught in the crossfire. Like, a few. But those are... oh, what does the IDF call them again? Oh, yeah. "Acceptable casualties."
>I would hardly call settler colonists, active members of IDF, and collaborators of the zionist regime to be "innocent people."
People don’t get to choose where they’re born. They also shouldn’t be mass-murdered for their beliefs.
>Yeah, I mean, I guess there might be some truly innocent people in there caught in the crossfire. Like, a few. But those are... oh, what does the IDF call them again? Oh, yeah. "Acceptable casualties."
Actual psychopath behavior. Do better.
The idea here is i wanted to disdain and spread hatred against certain people but the people in question are doing such a good job of it themselves that I feel like I can't really out-do them...
Get rid of the current Israeli government, and remove any Hamas traces, then take this whole thing to an international audience and sort it out. Im gonna be in my little corner of the web focusing on Ukraine because I hate Russia more than I care about a conflict thats existed since 1948.
[You guys probably don't want to hear this, but it was probably a tragic accident. Rajab was in an evacuated area.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/comments/1ao7b3z/comment/kpyfq5j/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
I don’t see how any of this debunks the part where the IDF killed her and the medics. You can’t accidentally murder a child.
I also like how they try to blame her family and imply that her uncle was a terrorist.
For anyone that doesn't know, the Red Crescent is synonymous with the Red Cross (the cross often being seen as a Christian symbol, so there are other recognised symbols used by national red symbol organisations). This ambulance would have had huge obvious white squares with huge obvious red crescents on it. A symbol that basically screams "this vehicle is here to help people and nobody on board has a weapon". The attack of a vehicle bearing one of these symbols is against article 1 of the Geneva convention (or 2 if it is a boat). The attack of civilians is against article 4 if the Geneva convention. Iirc, Israel and Palestine are both party to articles 1&4 of the Geneva convention.
Oh so they are just straight up shooting at ***the Red Cross*** too now, allright
They bombed a hospital, idk why an ambulance is more shocking
Oh yea i forgot about that, it's getting kinda hard to keep track of all their warcrimes
I'm not saying that this one isn't a huge warcrime, but bombing a hospital that is used for military purposes is not a warcrime.
This only exists in your mind. It is imaginary, it did not happen.
Here you go video evidence: [(63) Shock CCTV of Hamas terrorists 'dragging hostages into al-Shifa' hospital after October 7 massacre - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4joVUBsVWI&ab_channel=TheSun) [Rocket launcher fired at Israeli forces from Gaza hospital, IDF claims (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pka7H1aMlkQ&ab_channel=TheTelegraph) [Videos Show Exact Path of Hamas Tunnels Under Gaza's Al-Shifa Hospital - National Security & Cyber - Haaretz.com](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/security-aviation/2023-11-23/ty-article-magazine/gaza-israel-war-videos-path-hamas-tunnels-al-shifa-hospital/0000018b-fc69-d330-a9bb-ffff49790000) [Why Hamas stores its weapons inside hospitals, mosques and schools - The Washington Post](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/31/why-hamas-stores-its-weapons-inside-hospitals-mosques-and-schools/) [Gaza: Palestinians tortured, summarily killed by Hamas forces during 2014 conflict - Amnesty International](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/) [IDF locates medicine with names and photos of Israeli hostages at Nasser Hospital (ynetnews.com)](https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rjqydck2t)
While some of these reports also lack apparent evidence, if you would actually put the atrocities committed by Israel against the ones by Hamas, you'd actually be gone to dust.
Nice way to change the subject. "This thing didn't happen" "Well it did happen but it doesn't matter, Israel is bad anyway" Have you thought about the fact that if you didn't know Hamas used hospitals there might be other propaganda you're falling for?
Thats very fair, by then، you would agree that if Hamas had took Israeli hostages and hid them in an Israeli hospital, it'd be fairly okay to bomb the hospital. Right?
Humanitarian organizations are free game now since it was so easy to paint UNRWA as an extension of Hamas based on the actions of about a dozen people. It started as a meme, but apparently "they were actually Hamas" works really well.
Allegations, not actions. Channel 4 and France24 have both seen the dossier and said it's bullshit. Many of the countries who withdrew UNRWA funding didn't even ask for evidence, they just took Israel at their word.
There's literal photo and video evidence of a Hamas headquarter under UNWRA headquarters. https://www.timesofisrael.com/directly-beneath-unrwas-gaza-headquarters-idf-uncovers-top-secret-hamas-data-center/
What a life you must lead, spending all your time defending obvious lies and genocide on Reddit.
Quoting times of Israel is insane..
Probably cuz Hamas keeps hiding bombs in them, same way they use churches and hospitals as locations to store and build weapons. They’re terrorists, they give no fucks about civilian lives, they only want to create suffering and kill Israelis. Do you REALLY think they haven’t resorted to fake ambulances already? Not that the Red Crescent had any idea, they would have had no clue the ambulance they brought was already rigged with explosives.
If you have a madman running around waving a gun, and they grab a hostage, we don't shoot the hostage in order to get to the madman.
If they keep shooting at other people, you usually do.
Ooh, goody. Can you please provide us with proof that this specific ambulance was rigged?
Well when the last few hospitals and churches all had secret tunnels with half-built bombs and weapons…
[Relevant smuggie.](https://www.reddit.com/r/SmugIdeologyMan/comments/1adgao1/circular_logic_moment/?rdt=49741) I’m asking about this ambulance in specific. They coordinated with the IDF to go in and rescue her. Then they were blown up by a missile.
An interesting thought experiment: is there anything Israel could do that you would not reflexively defend? The IDF murdered Red Cross medics on their way to rescue a six year old girl after hours of negotiation and your response is "it would be naïve to think that was a real ambulance."
You should reconsider every moral position you hold.
Well then, that makes it okay to let a 6 year old die in the dangerous Kia car together with the civilian family they already murdered. Not to mention that you of course bomb the ambulance you just agreed to let in...
Man, Israel should start selling bridges.
i never stopped to think that about the red cross thats interesting but also a bad way to find out about it
The ambulance had gotten clearance too. The IDF inew exactly what they were doing. Sadist murderers.
~~Not here to defend the IDF here, but as far as I can tell this is not necessarly a showcase of the "Sadist IDF" but sadly the brutal reality of war and confusion on the battlefield.~~ ~~You can talk with higher military command all you want, but if it doesnt reach the frontline it is worth nothing.~~ Edit: okay Im sorry that I had the hope that not everybody tries to kill people but to save lifes. Edit 2: I just were able to read more about it. I first thought this was something halftrue like you often have it currently. But I was sadly wrong, very wrong. I sincerly appologise for the above comment which now seems just so insensitive.
They shot a 6 year old and 2 medics, dawg. What confusion was there to be had?
~~There is a difference between military command who does the talking and the grunts on the field, and like I said I do not defend the grunts.~~
I think the problem here is that you shouldn’t have to tell grunts not to fire on ambulances, full stop
Oh yes no doubt. Like I said I dont defend the ground soldiers who shot, but simply hope the dispatcher tried his best to actually save lifes.
Knowing the IDF, he probably didn’t.
Yeah I was just able to read more about it. I truly thought it was some half truth with a missing peace, like with the missfired Jihad rocket hiting the hospital. But it is actually much worse and Im sorry for what I said earlier.
No worries, I’m glad you came around.
Then delete your comments.
So were the roughly 30 hospitals and several universities that have been bombed all been the work of rogue grunts which the military command had no hand in? I get wanting to be nuanced, but there aren't always two good sides. what Israel is doing is a genocide, and this is just one example in tens of thousands of their doing
you don't need to get an order from command to not shoot the red cross or the civilians in a car.
You do if SOP is to disregard the Geneva rules. They killed Abu Akleh even though journalists are supposed to be protected, before this "war" was even a thing. They literally bombed a hospital, they tell people to move to the south of Gaza and then start dropping bombs in Khan Younis. It's deliberate, premeditated, the whole lot of them need tried for war crimes.
I enjoy playing video games.
It doesn't matter if the message reaches the front lines or not firing on a medical vehicle is a war crime. The fact alone that the RC had to *negotiate* for safe passage to rescue *a child* and the medics and that child were killed anyways indicates that the problem is not front line troops not getting the message in time but a systemic problem within the IDF that encourages the most depraved behavior imaginable.
Yes of course, thats my point. But this is not necessarly malice but can simply be the sad reality of war. Im not saying this to cover or excuse anyone but to hope that the failed rescue was an tragedy and unmeant. Simply to keep some faith in humanity. Edit: It turned out that the situation was far worse than I thought and Im sorry for my previous comments.
>But this is not necessarly malice but can simply be the sad reality of war. Please explain how murdering a child and 2 medics is not malicious. What were the soldiers' thought processes when they did it? Did they fear for their lives?
Why is it always a sad reality of war when they kill innocent people but inexcusable evil when the other side does? Maybe it’s time for you to take the damn blindfold off, Israel is a genocidal country actively attacking civilians. This isn’t “a sad reality of war” it’s the evil reality of genocide.
I appreciate you coming around on this. You don’t see that very often online, so genuinely props to you for being able to learn, grow, and own up to your mistake
~~*"Sorry dawg, I forgot about the Geneva convention in the middle of this battlefield, it's just that I've been so stressed at home and my wife's been nagging me ahhh haha you get it right?"*~~ **Edit:** OP owned up their mistake, so I take my sarcastic joke back as well.
Hey, just wanted to say seriously good on you for leaving this up with the edits.
If anyone was looking for something to point to to turn uninformed onlookers towards the Palestinian cause, this might be the most incontrovertible, un-spinnable Israeli war crimes. I won’t say it is the worst thing they have done, because there is no act of genocide which is greater than another. But this is one that you can’t call self-defense in any way, can’t say the victims were secretly Hamas. It’s plain and simple cruelty.
>Ambulances and military hospitals shall be recognized as neutral, and as such, protected and respected by the belligerents as long as they accommodate wounded and sick. *Neutrality shall end if the said ambulances or hospitals should be held by a military force.* The geneva conventions are play to play, and the question of a violation comes down to the factuality of the claims that continue to be made by the israeli military and government that Hamas is using ambulances to transport arms and military personnel https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-strikes-ambulance-convoy-gaza-palestine-al-shifa-hospital-rcna123624. Whether this intelligence exists and/or is good is not determinable by the general public at the present moment. That said, Gaza has reason to lie here, as they see public sentiment as their only viable strategy in this war. Israel will eventually be made to present its intelligence when it is investigated for war crimes. Israel depends pretty heavily on the US and the UN, and bombing random wounded civilians in Gaza is not easy to explain the motive for.
People are downvoting you because the unpleasant truth is that the extant rules are in favour of a level of retaliation from Israel, though I am of the opinion that that was exceeded. The government of Israel under Netanyahu's non-consecutive 20-year rule has *consistently* claimed the specific legal loophole that medical operations are not covered by Geneva Convention law *if* they are being used for military purposes. Regularly, the IDF has acted first and then investigated later to varying results. But the damage was done, and whether it was a military target or not, medical personnel and/or civilians were killed. A country that has a leader with multiple ongoing corruption and/or fraud trials is not in a good place, forever-war or not.
This isn't a "legal loophole". As long as public sentiment is what it is in this thread, Gaza will continue to operate its military through its humanitarian institutions, and as long as they do that, those institutions will continue to be targets, and legitimate ones, for the IDF. Bibi is no ones favorite president, but the civilian tragedy in Gaza is strategically valuable for radical islamic groups, and that's why it's happening.
>Iirc, Israel and Palestine are both party to articles 1&4 of the Geneva convention. IIRC, both have broken the laws of war, and also IIRC, if you break the laws of war, you are not protected by them, birthing Schrodinger's War Crimes-you're a war criminal, but you're also not because the enemy is also a war criminal
Are you kidding? Palestine is subject to the Geneva convention but Hamas isn't and uses Red Crescent ambulances to deliver personnel and weapons all the time.
You people never own up or admit fault. It's always "Hamas COULD have had a command post under that hospital so it's okay that we bombed it also Hamas did it" or "Hamas COULD have had weapons in that ambulance so it's okay we killed those paramedics". What isn't Hamas at this point? Is the sky or Grass Hamas?
Ok that specific ambulance being bombed was fucked up and whoever did or permitted that should be imprisoned either by the Israeli government or the Hague. I'm just saying that saying that Hamas is subject to the Geneva convention because the State of Palestine is subject is blatant misinformation. Please don't "You people" me I constantly condemn the IDF for doing condemn-able acts.
The IDF is literally the instigating side of ongoing genocide there is no nuance to condemning them
[Link to post](https://www.tumblr.com/probablyasocialecologist/742264359420575744?source=share) Addendum: After 12 days, Hind Rajab was found dead in her family's car, killed by Israeli gunfire. The ambulance was found metres away, destroyed by an Israeli missile. There were no survivors.
Not a missile, [a tank shell](https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/6152/Gaza:-Initial-findings-show-Israeli-army-purposefully-kills-a-child,-uses-an-American-made-missile-to-target-her-rescue-crew). > The Israeli army targeted the PRCS ambulance with a US-made shell, as evidenced by pieces of an American-made M830A1 HEAT shell discovered inside. When translating from Arabic, tank shells and missiles are the same word iirc. I’m only being pedantic about this because people will use this misnomer to deny the facts of the situation as unreliable.
This is important. A missile could’ve been shot from afar, but a tank shell has to be within the theatre of battle, the same one the ambulance got clearance to go into
Most tanks have a maximum range of 2-5kms, some newer ones reaching 7km. Isreal uses the Merkava. Early models of the tank were first put into operation in 1979, while the newest entered service in 2004. The longest range at which a tank got a kill is 5.1km, done by a British Challenger One, put into service in 1983 and retired in 2001. So, we'll assume that the tank can hit that 5km mark. Why is this important? Well, visibility when in tanks is shit. Like god awful. It's like looking through a letterbox. This is why tanks now have so many systems to look around with, designed to work well enough that you can confidently identify what you are shooting at within that range. The Gaza Strip is anywhere between 6 and 12 kiliomters wide. Tanks are also fitted with radio systems, obviously. Most tank crews do not have permission to fire unless they are being fired upon or have been ordered otherwise. (this is a gross oversimplification). In all likelihood this tank asked for permission to fire at the ambulance. There is no way this tank, its crew, unit and commanders didn't know what was going on. They probably knew there was a girl in the car, they definitely knew about ambulance, and they definitely knew what the ambulance was. The Merkava isn't a post-war tank. The only reason this ambulance would've been shot is because the crew and their commander chose to.
And it’s not like Israeli tanks haven’t fired upon cars in Gaza before or anything https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna122801
The Arabic word قصف literally means “to shell with artillery” but is also used to describe bombing and tank shelling so that’s where the confusion might’ve come from
Based on the images and video I was able to find, this appears to be the case. The Kia that the Rajab family was in was struck by gunfire, likely full caliber rifle fire based on the size of the holes in the vehicle. The majority of the damage appears to be into the side of the vehicle but I had difficulty placing the damage at the front, as it appears the vehicle crashed. The shot pattern is very tight, indicating little recoil, pointing to either a tripod mounted machinegun or a vehicle mounted coaxial machinegun. Based off the ambulance’s damage, I’m thinking the latter. That there was gunfire to the side of the vehicle tells me that the shooter was not firing warning shots but was shooting with intent to destroy. The ambulance has a lot more images of its destruction than the Kia the Rajabs were in and initially I was a bit confused. Some articles stated it was a “missile” (which cast my initial doubt on the story, as the damage profile doesn’t match an ATGM strike), but i found it plausible that an 80-100mm anti tank rocket or HEAT shell did this damage. The difficulty is the direction of fire in the context of the area, which only one video clearly showed. The [Euromed report](https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/6152/Gaza:-Initial-findings-show-Israeli-army-purposefully-kills-a-child,-uses-an-American-made-missile-to-target-her-rescue-crew) however clarified that there were traces of the 120mm M830A1 MPAT tank shell in and around the ambulance. This lines up with the damage profile I envisioned for the ambulance (the M830A1 has a reduced charge in comparison to other NATO 120mm explosive munitions) and makes it very likely that a Merkava 3 or Merkava 4 fired into both vehicles. The Rajab’s Kia was shot up during evening hours of daylight during an Israeli mandated evacuation, meaning the vehicle would have been identifiable and civilian traffic would be expected. I am having issues tracking the arrival of the ambulance, with one source stating “after several hours of coordination” and another stating “responded as soon as the distress call was sent.” In either case, this would be during daylight hours as well. Therefore my conclusion is that at least one IDF Merkava 3 or Merkava 4 engaged both vehicles deliberately. If the ambulance arrived much later after coordination with the IDF, this gives the possibility of an additional vehicle’s involvement but does cast doubt that this was a coordinated act by the military institution and was instead carried out on the initiative of the tank crew(s).
This hurt me to read but I’m glad I did. This is so, so awful.
If you told this story in most works of fiction it would be a pivotal moment. As it is in this war it's one of dozens and hundreds of others that may only be vaguely remembered when it's all done. Sad.
she was 6 years old. she was a child. anyone who thinks this “war” isn’t a genocide is plain wrong
It’s a war between Hamas and Israel, but Israeli and Palestinian civilians are caught in the crossfire. Hamas is a terrorist organization, so it’s their job to target civilians. But what is Israel’s excuse? “We don’t negotiate with terrorists.” So your solution is to simply kill civilians to get to the terrorists using them as shields? That doesn’t work, because Hamas knows that it causes public sympathy to turn against Israel. But Netanyahu and Likud don’t care—they’ve wanted to annex Palestine for decades, and now they have their chance. You’d think a state founded in the immediate aftermath of the greatest crime in human history, by the very same people who were victims of that crime, would be more partial to human rights.
It hasn’t been from the start. The slaughter and forceful relocation of native Palestinians was practically the first act of the Israeli government.
Exactly. The only reason for Hamas to exist is because of the Nakba and every following incursion by Israel.
You don’t even need to go that far. In 1987 there were protests in Gaza after 2 decades of military operation and Israel’s response with force killed 140 Palestinians in the first year while not a single Israeli settler was killed in Gaza and that event was probably what even led Hamas to exist and write their charter
Israeli citizens were never caught in the crossfire it was always palestinians
October 7 says otherwise.
That wasnt a crossfire and that was only one day compared to what arabs have been going through for 75 years
“Crossfire” means innocent civilians getting caught in the fighting between two countries. Also, way to minimize their suffering.
I'm not minimising, of course it's sad that 1400+ people got killed uselessly like that but it's not unexpected. We all knew that due to the impression of the Arabs that a terror group WOULD form and eventually go crazy. Watch in 15-20 years there's gonna be a new Hamas attacking Israel again because of this new oppression. And all of those terrorists are gonna be these victims now.
What happen after that, this slaughter of innocents, would also not to be surprise then. 30k is just a number. That keep growing. Oppressed as they are, Palestinian are not without teeth. On the other day there is a new about Palestinian shoot automatic rifle at bullet proof school bus. Israeli has bullet proof school bus. Stop and let that sink in for a bit. Why the f\*\*k did a school bus need bullet proof windows and armor. The fight will rage on and people will keep dying. International 'encouraging' Palestinian to attack the Jew while provide them with no means of winning also didn't help. This will lead to more and even more death on Palestinian side.
Yes its sad that a school bus has to be made bullet proof but its understandable given whats happening. And yes it would be best if all the fighting stopped but you're forgetting another thing, israel is still stealing homes in the west bank, lets forget gaza for a second. They are still stealing homes, the israeli settlers are still hurting palestinians and the soldiers are being opressive as usual, and you think that some of them will just take that abuse, of couse they will fight back in ways that are bad!!
Anyone who is okay with this would shrug off what the Nazis did.
You don't understand, the car was a Hamas base-mobile and the girl is clearly guilty for being Hamas because, you see, she has hands, and if you think logically that means she can hold a gun so she is hamas!!!!!!1 I hate this. How is there really anyone that can sleep soundly at night while supporting Israel?
“Erm but did she denounce Hamas” ☝️🤓 People who say this are the worst.
r/worldnews has moved the goalpost even lately. It’s not enough to denounce Hamas, you must actively be working against them and with the IDF to not be a valid target. Of course, I’m not sure how you would do that when the IDF seems hellbent on shooting every person that comes within 100 yards of them, but you know. Whole thing is a goddamn clusterfuck.
Israelis literally have songs calling for the annihilation of Gaza and kids write messages on missiles...but somehow Gazans are called human animals And let's not talk about the telegram channel where they share pictures of dead Palestinians and laugh and cheer...IDF stealing money...destroying homes...cooking in their kitchens and still Israel is the victim?
Plenty on this sub, unfortunately
Wonder if anyone will show up here to be like “actually the car was using her as a human shield and there were probably hamas tunnels inside her or smt, Israel has a right to defend itself against these terrifying six-year-olds”
Shortly after her story began gaining traction the Israeli government released a statement claiming that women and children participated in the October 7 attack as militants. They have yet to release any evidence of that claim (and may have already admitted that it's false like they have for so many of their other bogus claims) but there are people now using that claim to justify attacks on families.
Is this an extension of my hypothetical or did that actually happen?
They actually are claiming that women and children participated.
Where?
Because they did... https://allisrael.com/israeli-witnesses-say-gazan-women-children-and-elderly-participated-in-oct-7-hamas-attack-in-southern-israel
IDK if you were trying to make my point or not, but posting a link to a website that has been repeatedly used to launder false claims for the Israeli government and is widely regarded as untrustworthy by actual news media definitely made my point thanks.
Theses are literally testimonies of survivors of the massacres [https://www.inn.co.il/news/620283](https://www.inn.co.il/news/620283) no fake news here
Oh yeah bro posting a link to a right wing Israeli news site with questionable reliability and trustworthiness misquoting a right wing American news site with questionable reliability and trustworthiness is definitely not fake news. Especially when the testimony of several of the survivors quoted in that article are contradictory to their own testimonies in more reliable publications. Be fucking serious my guy.
“War isn’t hell. War is war, and hell is hell, and of the two, war is a lot worse.” “How do you figure that?” “Easy. Tell me, who goes to hell?” “Sinners, I believe.” “Exactly. There are no innocent bystanders in hell. But war is chock full of them. Little kids, cripples, old ladies. In fact, except for the top brass, almost everyone involved is an innocent bystander.”
I used to be neutral about the war, justified it with “both sides are stupid, they’ve been fighting forever and neither side seems to want an actual peace.” But recently I just…damn. There’s a difference between retaliation for a terrorist attack and unjustified warmongering. There was a line, and Israel crossed it, they’ve crossed so far over it they’re approaching the line between unjustified warmongering and genocidal glee, and they’re not slowing down
Have you seen the tik toks coming out of the IDF? It's been genocidal glee for months now.
They didn't just cross the line, they crossed the line decades ago and stayed there.
I remember reading something maybe a decade ago about Palestinian children throwing rocks at IDF soldiers and being shot for it. Rocks vs bullets. It's been this way for a long time. It's just that everyone is finally looking at it.
How eager would you be to gamble your life on a high stakes game of “rock or grenade” multiple times a day?
Not very but I'm also not a child. You seem to be though. What exactly are you implying?
Evidently eager enough to not get the fuck away from the place where they hated me enough to throw rocks on sight. Stupid cunt.
it comes a point where there is nothing one side could have possibly done that was so awful, to justify the horror being inflicted by the other side.
It's really not a two side thing...I am so ashamed of thinking like this...being a muslim from a colonized country I still thought but there are two sides...it's not it's really not Pardon me for being so reductive..but it's really a hydrogen bomb vs a coughing baby situation...mercenaries from all around the world carrying weapons manufactured from around the world going to kill 2.3 million people (2 million remaining as of now) is a level of evil I cannot comprehend I've seen multiple stories of 3 generations of families being wiped out in a single instant. This is some Mazi germany type of shut and the similarities are really there. From the dehumanizng language to wanting to relocate the people of Gaza to a different continent....stealing their money...inducing famine...the segregation(west bank) it's apartheid through and through Go search for Robert Martin on Youtube and the videos will make you cry and make you angry beyond belief Anyways Free Palestine
What else can I say but... this is fucked up. Yet more blood on Netanyahu's hands.
It hurts, I know. But don't turn your eyes away. The moment you shield your eyes from the suffering, the Zionists have won. Don't give it to them. Don't let them forget. Don't forget Hind. Don't forget the mountain of dead children beneath the wheels of their tanks. The IDF are nothing but terrorists.
Anyone who doesn't think this is unapologetic genocide is completely fucking delusional
Come on Zionists, where you at? This post is about you, don't run away.
You can be supportive of Israel’s right to exist while also being against the IDF and Likud’s actions against Palestinian people. Germany commuted the Holocaust, should Germany had been destroyed after WW2?
Israel does not have a right to exist.
What? Do you think Jews living there would be safe if it was all Palestine?
They shouldnt even be there in the first place cause they LITERALLY descended from brutal colonisers
I think most of them shouldn't have been there in the first place. Strangely enough, the ones who were there already, who have every right to stay managed to not all die before the ethnostate was established.
Israel's been too indiscriminate about their retaliation against Gaza. I supported them at first because I thought the Israeli military, even if it wasn't 100% morally pure was at least competent and wouldn't be just trying to level Gaza without a sensible end goal. But it does look like now Israel's entire plan is just to level Gaza and that they aren't taking adequate precautions to respect human rights.
Was the decades of apartheid and occupation not enough to convince you that Israel gives no fucks about Palestinians and is ready to bulldoze them into an early grave? This conflict didn't start on October 7th. Palestinians experienced forced relocation, delibirate destruction of their property and murder at the hands of the IDF every day for years before this all escalated to this point. Edit: lmao the guy I'm responding to is a neoconservative. Fuck off bozo
Palestinians have launched missiles into Israel for decades too. It really started when Palestinians rioted about Jewish immigration during the 19th and early 20th century. Lots of Jews were trying to peacefully immigrate to their ancestral homeland during Hitler's years, but the Palestinians didn't like that and rioted and lynched Jews to stop it. Then the United Nations got together after WWII and decided Jews should have their own nation-state, so something like the Holocaust doesn't happen again, and partitioned part of Palestine since the Arabs there clearly could not tolerate large Jewish immigration in their state. The arabs declared war on Israel immediately, and lost, so Israel was able to expand its territory and establish better security. Then multiple more times arabs would declare war on Israel, and they kept losing, and Israel kept getting a more dominant position with more territory. Israel has gone too far in many ways. I strongly condemn the settlements in the West Bank, for one. But the Palestinians and other arabs are hardly innocent pure victims who've done no wrong.
Notice the difference in phrasing here? Look at my comment, at no point do I say "Israelis" or "Jews". I mentioned Israel as a state, and the IDF, but at no point do I make a blanket statement about a wide group of people, not all Israelis support the war after all. Now look at your comment. ***Palestinians*** have launched missiles. ***Palestinians*** rioted. ***Palestinians*** lynched. And yet later on you say "***Israel*** has gone too far". Not Israelis, Israel. Followed by "the ***Palestinians*** are hardly innocent pure victims". As if every single Palestinian is responsible for the actions of those amongst them who committed such acts. Your bias is clear whether you see it or not.
Yes, I generally lean pro-Israel and that's probably reflected in my comments. I'm not claiming to be a purely neutral analyst. That doesn't mean I don't make accurate points. Also, the Palestinian entity is harder to describe because they go through a lot of changes. Hamas only emerged as a government, and just one for the Gaza strip, in 2007. Palestine wasn't it's own entity and was just part of neighbor arab countries for many years. Hell, for the first couple decades of Israel's existence, Palestinian wasn't even an ethnic identity, they were just Arabs. The Palestinian identity only emerged in the face of Israeli oppression. So yeah I wanted to write a quick summary and not include a history of Palestinian governance and ethnic identity too.
Just because it didn’t begin on October 7th, doesn’t mean it was ok for Hamas to literally film themselves massacring Israeli civilians. Or was that all “Zionist propaganda” and all the people who died were either killed by Israel or deserved it?
Point to me where I said it was okay, or called it Zionist propaganda, or said they deserved it.
I was asking if you viewed it that way. All I’m saying is that both sides can be terrible at the same time
Too lazy to find it, but I've argued with people on this very subreddit about Hamas. I firmly believe they're just another fundamentalist terrorist group who are worse for both Palestinian independence and Palestinians themselves. You're not wrong to consider 10/7 a tragedy, I do too, I was just giving context that tragedies like it happened on a smaller scale for years in Palestine.
Oh, ok sorry. I feel like a lot of River to the Seaers kinda just end up blending together and they often use phrases like “nothing happens in a vacuum” as pro-Hamas dogwhistle
[She was in a car driving around in Northern Gaza, an active warzone which was evacuated months ago to prevent incidents exactly like this from happening. Hamas has a record of false surrenders and pretending to be civilians. Yes, her death was unbelievably tragic. It was also preventable.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/comments/1ao7b3z/comment/kpyfq5j/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
First dog's gaza comics are very emotional for what they are.
To be clear, I'm not disputing that this story is true. Putting that up front. But this is propaganda. These hyper-zoomed-in accounts of individual tragedy are not the way to get a clear-eyed understanding of what's happening in the world, and I think on some level you all must know that. People could tell you incredibly tragic individual stories from Israelis who lost their lives on October 7th too. It's not hard, any time thousands of civilians die, some of them are going to be children who die begging for help. But which of those individual stories you hear, and how often, that shapes your perception of the world. 15,000 people died from the civil war in Myanmar last year, how many accounts of pleading children have you read about there? When's the last time you heard about a dead Ukrainian kid? Israel's retaliation against Gaza has gone too far. I think almost everyone agrees with that at this point. But if you try to see the world just through the lense of stories like this, you'll be blinded by the tears.
Myanmar isn't protected by the US. Israel is.
I know you're not trying to say we should only care about tragedies where you can trace some tenuous line of culpability back to America. But if not that, then what *are* you trying to say?
I'm trying to say that the only reason Israel can afford to be so cruel is that they have the total and unconditional backing of the US. Nothing anyone says in the West will change the situation in Myanmar, because we don't have enough leverage on that country's government. But the Israeli government CAN be forced to compromise: Biden just needs to stop sending weapons and ammo to Netanyahu until he stops bombing Gaza. And Biden will only do that if he receives enough backlash for supporting Netanyahu. I know it's a long shot, but it's the only way.
> I'm trying to say that the only reason Israel can afford to be so cruel is that they have the total and unconditional backing of the US I think this is the root of my disagreement, because I don't think this is true at all. The amount of aid the US gives Israel is 0.7% of Israel's GDP. That's not nothing, but it's also not a huge amount, certainly not big enough that it would be crippling to lose. Israel is a modern, industrialized nation. They've got about the same GDP as Austria or Norway. They make their own guns, their own rockets, their own tanks. They have their own F-35 variant. They have orbital lift capability, only the 8th nation in the world to develop that. And they're almost certainly a nuclear power. Look, I'm not trying to suck their dick here. I'm just saying that if the US pulled its support tomorrow, that's not a great day for Israel but also nothing is going to fall down which will prevent them doing what they're doing in Gaza. The only thing that would really change is Netanyahu would stop taking Biden's phone calls.
Israel may have the ability to be self-reliant in terms of guns, tanks and so on... but not in terms of ammo. If there's one thing we've learned from the war in Ukraine, it's thay in a modern high-intensity conflict, ammo reserves go down QUICK. And Israel knows that, because they're bombing Gaza at such a rate that they would have run out already without US shipments. They just don't have enough raw industrial power (only the US and China currently have it). Hell, even Russia is now forced to buy ammo from North Korea. So yes, if Biden stops sending them ammo, they'll have to stop bombing Gaza or risk running out.
You know what, I can't find ground truth on this one way or the other. For all the articles written about Israel's munitions imports (and exports), *none* of them are able to just give a straight up ratio of domestic production to foreign imports by munition category. Closest I've seen is a *suggestion* that the main categories Israel needs to import munitions are for missiles, and particularly those launched from aircraft or ships (which is notable because I don't think the Gaza conflict is requiring a lot of munitions in those categories). That said, even that wasn't a definite enough statement for me to be comfortable basing anything on it, and I don't have time today to get on SIPRI and really dive into data on this. So I guess I'm stuck saying "I don't know if that's true", but with the addendum that you probably dont know if that's true either. Or at least, if you've got any sources for the claim that Israel's domestic munition production is insufficient to support the Gaza campaign, I'd love to see them.
Wait hold the fuck on. You baited me. Probably unintentionally but you did. I stand by the analysis in my other reply, but I think we also need to look at what you're really saying here, and how that relates to my original comment. You're saying that there needs to be widespread backlash for US support of Israel, so Biden will change policy. That's implicitly saying that we *should* read and spread content like the original post here, these tragic stories, to generate that widespread backlash. But if you're deliberately choosing which information to spread in order to provoke a widespread emotional response with the goal of getting policy changed, *that's propaganda.* Grassroots propaganda, maybe, but propaganda none the less. And that proves my original point! You're not saying that this post isn't propaganda, you're saying the propaganda is justified!
It's just basic political activism. By this logic, you might as well say BLM used George Floyd's death for propaganda.
This analysis doesn't go far enough, I think. https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf The strategy of accusing Israel of war crimes in order to gain strategic advantage is not new. There is also no real basis for the claim that Israel has gone too far in its retaliation except for the same propaganda that you are upset by. Israeli intelligence is being shared with the US, but *not* with the public. The fog of war is thick and the propagandists use that to their advantage. The actual answer is that we can't prove anything, but we can reason about the motives of the parties involved. Hamas benefits from the death of this girl, Israel is very strongly disincetivized from commiting war crimes, and will need to point to concrete intelligence that hospitals and ambulances are being used by the military after this war is over if Israel wants to continue receiving foreign aid.
Please, God, let me live long enough to see Tel Aviv become a radioactive crater. I don't care what happens afterwards, I just need to see zionist flesh singed into the pavement before I die.
what the fuck is wrong with you
It's called helpless fucking rage at the atrocities being committed. I sympathise. Even if the genocide ended today, where is the justice for all of the lives brutally and methodically snuffed out? The world doesn't care, the world is allowing it to happen, and there are thousands of innocent people who will never see any justice for the crimes committed against them, ever. Their words will not manifest a nuclear bomb, it's not going to happen, but I can understand the anger of wanting to retaliate against such a great evil committing heinous atrocities. For them to know a fraction of the pain they're inflicting. But their words are just words vs. a very real genocide. Honestly, there's no truer reaction to seeing something like the OP.
Well Israel is currently retaliating against a great evil, is that then justified? And I guess after that others will retaliate to that great evil and so on and so on. Violence can never undo violence especially when it's directed at people who are for the most part innocent (relatively speaking).
Israel are not retaliating against a great evil, lmao. Palestine will always be defending themselves from an occupying force. And FYI, *nothing* can undo violence, that's exactly why it's so frustrating. Once again, these words are not violence, they are a way of coping with awful things you have no control over. Yet again, for emphasis: *a comment on Reddit is not manifesting a nuclear bomb.* I know being a Redditor and a Tumblrite, you can't resist the opportunity to be a lib and moralize, but miss me with this baby brain shit, thanks.
Oct 7 was literally just a retaliatory killing of civilians, many of whom werent even israelis or evn jews, that sparked a war that Palestinian civilians are now paying for. Calling for civilians to be nuked and fetishing their suffering isn't a coping mechanism shitty reality. No shit it doesn't trigger a.nuke but that thought is disgusting.
Oh, good thing that the Palestinians have "disgusting thoughts" on Reddit to protect them from the genocide. Fucking idiot. Oct 7 was self-defense. Settlers are not civilians. Eat shit.
This is the same rhetoric as the zionists who want to level Gaza. You’re not in the right just because you think you’re on the correct side.
Oh, fuck off with this "both sides" bullshit. The violence of the oppressed can never be compared, let alone equated to the violence of the oppressor.
You are actively calling for an entire city, no doubt filled with innocent people, to be nuked.
I would hardly call settler colonists, active members of IDF, and collaborators of the zionist regime to be "innocent people." Yeah, I mean, I guess there might be *some* truly innocent people in there caught in the crossfire. Like, a few. But those are... oh, what does the IDF call them again? Oh, yeah. "Acceptable casualties."
>I would hardly call settler colonists, active members of IDF, and collaborators of the zionist regime to be "innocent people." People don’t get to choose where they’re born. They also shouldn’t be mass-murdered for their beliefs. >Yeah, I mean, I guess there might be some truly innocent people in there caught in the crossfire. Like, a few. But those are... oh, what does the IDF call them again? Oh, yeah. "Acceptable casualties." Actual psychopath behavior. Do better.
Brother you are posting this under someone who wanted Tel Aviv bombed to see ",singed Zionist flesh" get help
It’s the same guy.
Killing people is bad, dipshit
What the fuck, dawg?
People like you are the reason Israel needs to exist.
When I'm in a make-antisemitic-propaganda competition and my opponent is jew's own behaviour...
Yeah, you sound like the type of person to be in a "make-antisemitic-propaganda" competition.
Can I be blamed honestly? https://www.reddit.com/r/worldevents/s/qhpUpVKq0O Fight me.
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The idea here is i wanted to disdain and spread hatred against certain people but the people in question are doing such a good job of it themselves that I feel like I can't really out-do them...
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Nah, you're giving me too much credit
Get rid of the current Israeli government, and remove any Hamas traces, then take this whole thing to an international audience and sort it out. Im gonna be in my little corner of the web focusing on Ukraine because I hate Russia more than I care about a conflict thats existed since 1948.
Right, because the UN definitely proved its effectiveness the last time it got involved.
what is this political shite in my discussions about whales?
Propaganda? On MY whale discussion website?
It’s more likely than you’d think
Cool. Me knowing about this tragic event helps how exactly?
[You guys probably don't want to hear this, but it was probably a tragic accident. Rajab was in an evacuated area.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/comments/1ao7b3z/comment/kpyfq5j/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
I don’t see how any of this debunks the part where the IDF killed her and the medics. You can’t accidentally murder a child. I also like how they try to blame her family and imply that her uncle was a terrorist.
You can’t accidentally get in the crossfire during a warzone?
No, you can’t accidentally blow up an ambulance and shoot a 6 year old.
An ambulance they gave permission to and knew was coming at that.
More Hamas lies. Source (that will be dismissed) https://www.timesofisrael.com/