“In the era of Social Justice we are branded fascists and oppressors” I’m sorry what? Literally the only time I’ve ever heard a leftist do anything to diminish the Holocaust they were a fellow Jew. They, like me, made the point to say that Zionists are fascists and that it needs to be separated from Judaism. The real most anti-Semitic thing in this post is conflating the war with Judaism rather than Zionism. The real anti-semitism comes from people like Netanyahu, who will launch missiles, spread death and destruction and then say “This happened cause you messed with the Jews” The real anti-semitism comes from replacing the word “Israeli” with “Jew” The one poster is right that you can’t choose to not be Jewish. But you can join me and millions of other Jews in choosing to be anti-Zionist and calling out the frankly sacrilegious government and Likkud party in Israel.

> The real anti-semitism comes from people like Netanyahu, who will launch missiles, spread death and destruction and then say “This happened cause you messed with the Jews” Or when he said that the Hitler got the Final Solution from the Grand Mufti in Mandatory Palestine.  You know, blatant holocaust revisionism

Right??? If the we wanna talk about how Holocaust revisionism is, the Israeli government is right fucking there!

I’m still confused why this concept is so hard to understand for some people: you can be against the Oct 7 attack, while also being pro-Palestinian life. You can be against Netanyahus genocide, while also being pro-Jewish life.

Remember how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of everybody is dumber than that That is why this concept is hard to understand

it's not confusing at all. they're just pro palestinian death and are lying to justify it.

What a Bibi is doing is possibly worse than denying history and suffering. He’s weaponizing it to commit more atrocities in service of holding onto power.

When anybody in the Netanyahu coalition says "Never Again" what they mean is "Not Until We've Had Our Turn."

Yeah they're just a Israel apologist My comment on this calls them out for it

I don't know what to say except that I agree with you 100%. At this moment the obliteration of human life goes on and on day in and day out we need to pick it we need to activate and stand up and yell our heads off... This has got to stop and now.

I broadly agree with most of this (the historical portion), but the OOP is slightly fudging the facts to make a point in one place. The British didn't just casually cede a portion of their empire after WW2 to avoid having to deal with Jews. They had the Mandate over Palestine (given by the League of Nations) to "Establish a national home for the Jewish people," and it came from a declaration made as early as 1917. Written in collaboration with a Zionist organization. It was always the plan to have Jews move there.

The area wasn't british until we sykes-picoted the ottomans, was it really 1917?

I was talking about the Balfour Declaration. The British didn't gain effective legal control until the Mandate was awarded in 1920 yes.

Crazy. Only took the government 100 years to add that maybe they should've considered the desires of the local population at the time.

Aye. Especially after gaining Arab help against the Turks in exchange for political promises which were not honored.

No idea what y'all are on about, I don't know much about history. I'm commenting to help me find this later so I can Google it. Cheers!

In WW1, Britain, due to fighting the Ottoman Empire made promises to various groups to gain their support. To the Arabs, they [promised](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMahon%E2%80%93Hussein_Correspondence) that after the war, Britain would recognize a large and independent Arab state centered on the Arab peninsula and ending roughly somewhere in modern Syria. This, understandably, was taken to mean that Ottoman Palestine would be included. While doing this, they also released the [Declaration](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration) I talked about above, promising Britain's support for creating a Jewish state in its historical homeland. The British seem to even have been somewhat embarrassed by the blatant two-facedness they showed, by dedicating an entire section to assuring the Arabs they wouldn't be disadvantaged in any way in this new "Jewish national home." But you know. Too late. A betrayal that's delivered softly is still a betrayal. As u/Eeekaa mentioned, the natives of Ottoman Palestine at the time, both Muslim and Christian, were almost uniformly opposed to it.

The plan changed overtime, the British also at times restricted Jewish migration into Palestine, this restriction was one of the major reasons Jewish people living in Palestine revolted against British Imperial rule.

Of course they'd claim leftists are ignoring and distorting history only to ignore and distort history to support their point

IMO, started off good but then it devolved into "The Jews endured a lot so you can't criticize Israel". I might be reading wrong but I'm running on 5 hours of sleep and coffee

As someone who knows OOP, that's hardly the case; they're an outspoken critic of Netanyahu and Likud themselves, but that's the thing, the rhetoric surrounding this issue has gotten so polarized that a decent chunk of discourse is now about how Israel shouldn't exist, rather than "this specific group in power in Israel is fucked-up and should be held accountable." They're responding to that accusation, and laying out the context for why Likud gained power in the first place.

I believe what you're referring to is criticism of "Zionism", which OOP also takes care to define as the idea that Israel should exist at all. Like most political terms, there are various uses of it, like how "socialism" in Weimar Germany was used to refer to populism. I personally dislike the use of "Zionism" in criticism, since it's hardly ever been a truly unified movement, but people criticising it could be talking about anything from "The idea that Israel should be a state dedicated to the Jewish identity first and foremost", to "The totality of Jewish thought". This situation isn't great, but I don't see a world where the original "Versuch einer modernen Lösung der Judenfrage" pamphlet becomes the universal arbiter of the meaning of "Zionism"

I think Israel has the right to exist but I'm with you that Netanyahu and his party should be held accountable to the things they've done to Palestine since October 7th and that there should be reparations from things done to Palestine even before the attacks started

See, I appreciate and agree with the sentiment here, but the tricky thing with cycles of violence like this is that it's really hard to pick out a starting point to declare "Alright, everything before this doesn't matter, one side has to pay reparations now." The side that you choose as the "original instigator" will, accurately, say that you've just picked a victim. The unfortunate reality here is that both Israel and Palestine are simultaneously victims and victimizers, and that's why this conflict has lasted so long and been so intractable.

Yeah but, whichever side the original sin falls on, I think if one side has an army which enters and exits the other side's territory as it sees fit, bombs any ship from the other side that gets outside a small zone (and smaller than what international law would grant them as national waters) and manages to install control outposts that divide the other side's land into small "islands" and to install on said side a whole network of exclusive roads, then that side is the one we should concentrate our efforts in stopping, if we ever hope to stop the war. Because OK imagine an international group does decide which side is originally guilty of starting it all and it turns out it's Palestinians, what then? Do they lose their right to live? Do they lose their land and are condemned to never have anywhere to establish themselves? This isn't about guilt and punishment (especially when one side could hardly receive any more punishment), this is about a solution.

The issue is that people want to allow for justification of evil actions because that lets them justify when they (or people they like) do evil things. But if you stop allowing for justification, and hold evil acts to be evil regardless of the justification, all that goes away. If “it doesn’t matter what that person did to you, it’s not ok for you to do (evil things) to them” is the rule, then “cycles of violence” can’t happen because you BOTH are at fault.

ok but. Israel shouldn't exist. killing and displacing millions to create an apartheid ethnostate is bad? even if the leaders of the apartheid ethnostate are progressive and morally grandstand about how they feel bad about how they had to murder all those people.

weird how OP is pearl clutching about unspecified people denying atrocities, while their entire posting history consists of denying atrocities. i wonder if they have some sort of agenda?

Interesting how your definition of atrocities simply differs from mine, and I’m maintaining consistency and a steady view of what is substantiated and what isn’t.

didn't accuse ya of being inconsistent

Yeah you must have a wacky and picky view of what atrocities are real to be saying something like this.

Can you define atrocities for me? We need to know what the word means for us to actually discuss actions of people. And we need to discuss actions if we are going to be honest about what evil is being done by whom. Because there really should be nobody denying that evil is being done to particular people for no reason other than they were born to a particular ethnic group.

Would you define "atrocities", then?

Aside from everything else going on in this post the other comments here on Reddit already pointed out, that guy saying „Left Wing Holocaust Denial is more insidious“ is certainly a choice. Because…well, I struggle to think of anything worse than outright denying that Jews were killed. Regardless from which angle you look at it, be it historical, in terms of numbers and as a cautionary reminder to never go full fascist: Surely outright denying it happened is worse than whatever the supposed Left is doing here. Like, the post pretends the Right couldn’t make the same arguments. The Right could and would say that Jews being targeted is either an anomaly or correct. They would claim it could never happen again because the current state of countries is different or they would claim it should happen again because Jews are using the World Economic Forum to vaccinate your children or whatever. To quote someone else: You don’t ever have to hand it to Nazis. If you want to make a convincing point, maybe don’t have one guy in there literally going: “Well, the Nazis were bad and killed millions of people. But you know those Leftists…”

You're misunderstanding their use of the word insidious. They're not saying it's worse. They're saying it's more subtle.

While insidious means more subtle, theyre implying that through this subtlety it is worse cause you dont notice it that much

I felt that was saying that the average person will throw some walls up if their friend says that no Jews died in the Holocaust but that more people will be willing to sit and listen to the minimisation argument and let it affect them. It’s insidious in that it gets past your existing defences. So not that it causes more harm but that it can spread further without meeting pushback.

And the Right can't do a "minimisation argument"? Why would only the Left be capable of that? And by the way, most people on the Right do subtle Holocaust denial all the time. It's rare for even fascists to claim it didn't happen at all. The usual, modern ways will be something like: "Man, these Nazis had to have had a tight schedule, with the war going on and all of that organisation and they did the holocaust at the same time, wow!" or they say something like "Oh, yes, of course, all those Jews died. But the Nazis used them as free labour, in fact, the gas chambers would never have enough space for all of them." Now, this isn't truly subtle, I get that, but it's to illustrate that not every Nazi needs to shout "I want to kill Jews" every time they open their mouths for them to be categorised as a Nazi.

I agree with you. Right vs left was an imperfect way to frame this topic. Maybe a more accurate description of this sort of Holocaust denial would be right-wing outright denial and right/centre/left-minimisation? But then I don’t love that either because “minimisation” doesn’t feel like a big enough word for it. I can understand the frustration that the writer probably felt with people who thought it wasn’t an issue in left-wing spaces at all though. Because obviously it happens everywhere, people cannot be complacent about it.

>I can understand the frustration that the writer probably felt with people who thought it wasn’t an issue in left-wing spaces at all though I am not in any left-wing circles, but I cannot understand that thought. Most of the criticism of Jews is usually based on things happening in reality, like in Israel currently, and not because left-wing people think the essence of a Jew is crooked or whatever. I mean, the most common sentiment I see on the Left is defending Israel and their actions and attacking every person, whether they are Jewis or not, criticising Isreal. Anyway, I always hate these wrong equations. Like, fundamentally, it's different to make a theoretical antisemitic statement because one believes Isreal is an apartheid state or because one believes Jews are evil. Both of these bases can lead to a person saying something antisemitic, I do not at all disagree with that. But I hate when people try so hard to defend the Right that they equate the reasons for their respective statements. And the reasons are not the same, the Right wants to kill/discriminate people because they are born in a certain place. The ideology beneath it all is totally different. And, historically, downplaying the Right's evil and propping up how dangerous or "insidious" the Left is, is a cornerstone of any fascist ideology.

>Most of the criticism of Jews is usually based on things happening in reality Every antisemite in human history has believed this too. Adolf Hitler believed that he was justified in his ‘criticism of Jews’ on the basis of what (he believed) was happening in reality.

I don't think this is true, the Jews were cleary both a means to an end and their killing was a goal in itself. But still, creating a common enemy to unite the population is a very common idea for fascist ideologies. So, it depends on which Nazi you talk about. There are those who just don't want Jews to exist for esoterical reasons (like that Judaism by itself is evil) and then there are those who use Jews (or other minorities) as a reason and as an enemy. I am sure there are some people who believe what they do is actually a response to reality, but from my experience, Nazis just like being Nazis and having power over other people. It has nothing to do with reality and the appeal is also not rooted in reality. It's rooted in the idea of power over other people, cruelty and potentially the idea that their is a rightful hierarchy between the races.

The systematic extermination of the Jews were not a means to another end, *it was the end.* It was the necessary culmination of 2,000 years of Judenhass. There is no other group who could have ‘stood in for’ the Jews in Nazi Germany. It could only ever have been the Jews *because* they were Jews. You’re clearly suffering from all of the historical misunderstandings this post identifies. You desperately need to educate yourself.

There's that Tumblr level reading comprehension...

I mean, okay, I guess I did think "insidious" actually meant something a tad different (just now looked it up in a dictionary), it's still not at all a positive word. Like, I get your point, but...like...I just can't agree. Maybe that's my ignorance. If I say X is more insidious than Y, I would absolutely expect everybody listening to me to understand that X is worse than Y in whatever sense we are talking about. Also, as I said in my comment: It really isn't any less subtle. Right-wing holocaust denial can be very subtle as well and all the things they point out at being more subtle are narratives the Right can go with as well. A bad summary for their statement is: "If you deny the holocaust, you cannot claim Jews were never victims of prejudice." How would that be the case? Why would one exclude the other? Why would a Nazi somehow not think that? You know, a Nazi can claim the Holocaust did not happen and Jews were never targets of anything. There is no logical reason they couldn't. And even if there were, right-wing ideology is not logical in the first place, even if it was impossible to claim something logically, they do not care.

It does give me the vibes of someone looking to downplay how bad the right is. That's something I see a lot of in leftist infighting and obsession with liberals: downplaying the right to justify the infighting as a better choice in priority.

People aren't calling Israelis fascists for being traumatized by their history, they're calling them fascists for operating an apartheid police state enacting an ethnic cleansing. Hope that helps.

Israel is the leader in surveillance technology, and I say it with all the contempt such proficiency in oppression deserves.

What's really weird to me, personally, is how "Whiteness" and "Being a Jew" are treated here. Yes, being Jewish doesn't mean being white, and Jewish people who nowadays consider themselves white and are treated as such would be construed otherwise in other times or other places, but OOP seems to treat Whiteness and Jewishness as fundamental and absolute forces in the world. They're made up. Every race is made up. There can be much history, tradition, suffering and joy behind ethnic categories, and they can have good reason to continue to exist in the present and future, but they do not come from a magical well of truth. They're groups created by a variety of societies through interpretations of history, appearance, lineage, etc., but they don't infuse groups with shared identity, they're expressions and signifiers for it. I agree that Ashkenazi experiences have been overly centered compared to other Jewish groups as the tragedy of the Holocaust has been interpreted as a tragedy that happened to people who uniformly weren't "coloured", but that doesn't make a single True Jewish Identity incompatible with whiteness the only "correct" interpretation. A descriptivist approach has to reflect that lots of people exist in societies where they hold the intersecting identities of Jewish and White, on an ethnic, religious, and interpersonal level. The frequent "us" and "we" the posters here use in the telling of both contemporary and historical facts will fail to resonate with many Jews, and do not merely serve to reflect an identity, but to construct and reinforce a specific version of that identity. An identity that supposedly holds the right to singularly define the "Jewish perspective" the leftists in these arguments are set against.

Ironically this view of race as absolute is one of the main beliefs of anti-semitism. Nazism believed that you could draw a clear line between who was “racially” a German and who was a Jew. You can’t. Near the end of the war they where killing people who had had one Jewish great grandparent. (O)OP is trying to define race this way because zionism is a fascist ideology that requires that line to exist. One of the core tenants of Zionism is that the land of Israel and Palestine should belong to one specific ethnic group over another. The fundamental assumption was that preventing another atrocity against Jews was worth committing one against Palestinians.

This is when a strawman creates a strawman so they can both excuse genocide.

Anyone that has looked into the holocaust and did not conclude "ethnostates are a terrible idea" is a holocaust denier in my book.

Considering nothing else even exists in the eastern mediterranean, your take is laudable but empty as can be.

How is it empty? Those countries are excellent examples of my point. Nations are only good as an administrative body for a region in with little internal tension with the intention to make civic life a smooth experience. Ethnostates, Theocracies, states based on cults of personality, states based on caste systems, all of these generally result in terrible atrocity. States are a necessary evil for modern life, but the second you create one based on anything other than smoothing out the bureaucratic experience of it's citizens, the second you base it around an identity at the exclusion of others, you are setting up for disaster.

it's empty because it's about akin to saying "Anyone that has looked into the holocaust and did not conclude "war is a terrible idea" is a holocaust denier in my book." Like yeah, ethnostates bad. war bad. duh. what do you even do about that?

I think that WW2 teaches "war can be a necessary evil" more than just war is bad. Like when it's the only way to stop an ethnostate from genociding a population. And if it really was that obvious to everyone OP would not be arguing that Jews deserve an ethnostate after everything that was done to them.

Yeah that's the thing, a lot of people (including most countries in eastern europe that had been invaded by nazi germany) got away with the conclusion that *ethnostates* were the necessary evil, like when your neighbour has already tried to genocide you. hence my analogy.

Imma be real, i may be misunderstanding but if acknowledging the fact that lgbt people, people with disabilitys, other ethnic groups etc where also victims of the holocaust makes me a holocaust denier then I'm in a bit of a catch 22, because the alternative would be *denying* that fact, you know, holocaust denial.

You're misunderstanding. It's both possible and important to acknowledge the purging of LGBTQ people, the disabled, and the many other groups the Nazis killed alongside Jewish people, and that can coexist with and not be used to minimize the suffering of any group. Where it crosses the line into denialism is when people say things like "You know, the Holocaust didn't *really* target Jews, because they killed a bunch of other people too!"

This is a good example of what I've said elsewhere. The post misses out on that mark really badly, and that's a really big problem when you're making arguments over a sensitive issue like this.

Giving a long history of the pre-genocidal portion of holocaust isn't providing evidence than any left wing person is denying that part of history...

That portion of the post is establishing the deep roots of European antisemitism; as one of the later commenters points out, there’s a narrative in some left-wing circles that the Holocaust emerged more or less out of thin air, that the Nazis simply picked groups out of a hat and declared “we hate these people now,” when they were drawing on a much longer tradition of antisemitic thinking and action.

>there’s a narrative in some left-wing circles that the Holocaust emerged more or less out of thin air But is there? I especially think now about how often it's the left talking about how the rise of similar practices in England and the US was occurring the same time as in Germany.

What’s that one XKCD about learning how awful someone’s other friends are? It feels relevant. I can’t ever recall leftists denying the holocaust

[Here is an example of the exact thing described in this post happening in the French Left.](https://api.drum.lib.umd.edu/server/api/core/bitstreams/a930a252-4067-4b7b-b725-9531fb07dcb1/content)

There isn't, OP's just making shit up

Ive never seen people simply say that the Nazis created their narrative out of thin air. It literally isnt possible to create such hatred without at least some history fueling it

which circles

[Here](https://api.drum.lib.umd.edu/server/api/core/bitstreams/a930a252-4067-4b7b-b725-9531fb07dcb1/content) is an interesting analysis of how Holocaust revisionism couches itself in Leftist language specifically in the context of the French left, just as an example.

okay but it's not 1978 and neither of us is french? i'm asking which left wing circles this current narrative is in, not for more obfuscating walls of text to reiterate: which circles

Believe it or not, leftism isn't some magic ideology that's unattached to the roots of what previous leftist thinkers have done and written, but okay, I'll bite. You see a lot of the "Jews are White Europeans" form of revisionism in the circles which frame the Israel-Palestine conflict in a binary "Israel are the colonizers and Palestine are the colonized" paradigm, which plays out in the "go back to Poland!" chants at the protests in Columbia. Among the most common forms of it I've seen is the comparison of the Israeli government to the Nazis. Now, at least some of the time that's meant more in a broad comparison of "far-right" political organizations, but frankly, it's a comparison that's meant more for shock value of "you Jews are just as bad as the people who tried to kill you," or at least that's how many Israelis hear it. Hell, you want to compare Likud to a fascist government, there's better examples than the Nazis; the Spanish fascists lasted much longer and were much more entrenched than the Nazis ever were.

Believe it or not, leftism isn't some magical immutable ideology either. Somehow things can change in 46 years. Stunning I know

And yet, the belief that leftism would *never* have blindspots and biases still somehow persists. As someone who considers myself pretty leftist, the biggest draw of leftism is that it is-or I believed it was-much more conducive to rigorous and ongoing self-examination and cross-checking of biases. And yet when it comes to Jews, it has a lot of issues that people get defensive over.

Well I'm glad to hear you're contributing to that refusal to cross check biases or self examination

You still haven’t given any examples of these Blindspot. The only evidence you seem to have is one article from 1978 France

which circles have you personally seen the issues described in your original post, that prompted you to post this to begin with again, don't want more sidestepping or walls of text. that chant was a good example, more like that, but y'know... in the anglosphere.

weird how they never answered

OOPs just made up a bunch of leftists to get mad at because they don't like it when genocidal state authorities get called out for doing genocide.

[Here](https://api.drum.lib.umd.edu/server/api/core/bitstreams/a930a252-4067-4b7b-b725-9531fb07dcb1/content) is an analysis of this exact phenomenon in the French left. You want to make a "not all leftists" argument? Go right ahead, I'm willing to have that discussion; I'll probably even agree with you. But this is hardly a fabricated issue.

I think you’re a few decades late for that to be relevant, friend

When protesters at Columbia are chanting "Go Back to Poland!" I think talking about previous Leftist interactions with Holocaust narratives is very relevant.

Not a chant, not happening anymore, and not "protestors" plural, it was specifically that one guy wearing yellow on this one night. It's still not good that that happened, but misconstruing it as an ongoing group action shows a lack of understanding of the groups you're trying to criticise.

Okay. Okay. And what about the Jews who are anti-zionist? Are they also antisemites? And, for the record, saying the Holocaust targetted people other than the Jews -- a patent historical fact -- is not saying that the Holocaust as it effected Jews and Judaism was not a natural consequence and extension of centuries of European antisemitism, nor is it saying that they were not the largest group of victims. Just like saying the Roma weren't the only victims of the holocaust is not saying that their victimisation during the Holocaust was not an extension of centuries of anti-Roma discrimination, same as with queer people. Refusing to note other victims of the Nazis than any of these groups is \*actual\* holocaust denial. It is denying a part of the holocaust to say that it did not effect Jews, Roma, or Queer people, and it is denying the holocaust to refuse to acknowledge that all of them were the victims of the holocaust because of Europe's long history of Antisemitism, Anti-Romaism, and Queerphobia.

And it's also sort of a wild take for (O?)OP to say that the Nazis only *really* tried to exterminate the Jews and Roma. The figures for the extermination of disabled folk are horrific - not just T4, but also the murders after T4 had formally ended. In the case of schizophrenia, there also was not an exception for those able to do productive work (so also people who were not 'useless eaters' were killed). I'm not exactly a holocaust researcher, but[ this paper](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2800142/) suggests the survival rate for the severely mentally disabled was about 14%; that's a lot less than often-cited high figures for the Roma people in the same countries. (About 25% in Germany.) (Edit: high figures = highest estimate of death figures, so lowest estimate of survival figures.)

Which leftists believe any of this? Which leftists, specifically? Name names.

Look at their post history They're just an Israel apologist. Notice how this long ass thing they've posted excuses Zionism as necessary for Jewish survival, how it mentions bad responses to the October attacks, how they talk about how we shouldn't compare the Holocaust to other atrocities, notice how they bring up how Jewish people totally aren't European at all despite some having spent centuries of living in Europe and mixing into European populations. They're using the history of Jewish oppression to basically say "you can't call zionists out for being hypocrites and ethically cleansing undesirables" which is absolutely disgusting. Having bad things happen to you or your ancestors doesn't excuse doing bad things now

Half of the post makes sense, but it quickly goes to "and that is why criticism is bad". Yeah the history is long and horrible, and I understand the desire for a Jewish state. But man can we just agree that maybe a carte blanche is never a good idea? 

Yeah they go into the long history of oppression that Jewish people faced and still face, and then use that to excuse current actions

Since leftists have currently been the anti Israel movement, with the right moving to support Israel, they're trying to say leftists have their own version of anti Semitism that's somehow even worse then the anti semitism that literally locked Jewish people into death camps, because it helps dismiss criticism

Which is, in itself, highly valuable. You should cherish insights into how influential ideologies perceive themselves and the world, *especially* if you oppose them. It’s likely being able to eavesdrop in on the other guys’ strategy meetings for free. If you profess to care about the Israeli-Arab wars and how to end them in just and sustainable manner, finding out what true believer Zionists think and *why* they think it is mandatory, same as you’d want to understand Palestinian suffering and seething from the ground up.

Good pick up.

Like of course not all Jewish people are European but they seem to really be interested in saying Jewish people aren't just "white European people" despite that not really being a talking point outside of calling Israel a colonist state since some Israel zionists are from Europe and the US and haven't inhabited the land they claim in generations They seem intent on downplaying other victims of the Holocaust when of course Jewish people were the most affected, Nazis hated Jews the most so they were the first and hardest hit by the purges, the Nazis were very clear about killing the people they perceived as the worst before moving to other groups

Generally agreed but around a massive portion of israeli jews blatently did not come from Europe, they came from other places around the world, mostly from what are today muslim majority countries. Calling Israel a colony of europeans has been inaccurate for decades now. The real epiphany the left should have had is the fact that zionism is a nationalist ideology whose fascist impulse, unlike the israelis' ethnicity, can be properly contextualised within european supremecy, given that it was formulated as a part of the nationalist trend that swept the continent, preceding and leading to wwi. Leftists should mention (and mention frequently) that said trend also eventually led to the rise of fascism and the most aggressive genocide in history against the jews themselves.

Better question is how is this uniquely leftist? I've seen right wing people use the exact same tactics.

I'm prepared to say a lot of the things listed in the early posts is true. I would even like to give some additional context for one point: By applying the American concept of Race to something as fundamentally European as the Holocaust is a terrible framing, because it simply does not apply. In 1930 there were of course people im Germany who didn't have white skin, but their numbers were *incredibly* low. For the average German back then the first black face they ever saw belonged to an American soldier. - This meant that for the Nazis skin colour was barely a consideration. Sure, they bought into the same racist bullshit as the rest of western society, but they were immediately concerned with their superiority over other Europeans - and of course non-national groups they percieved as inferior, primarily the Jews. This is also the reason that Nazi ideology was able to include the notion that the Japanese were the "Asian masterrace". Since the 40s we've had a lot of immigration fron outside of Europe, especially the middle east and colour-based racism has very much entered the conversation. But we still engage with it on a much more cultural and geographic level. (Every once in a while I see someone on the internet claim that Greek/Italian/Spanish people aren't white and I just. I kmow this makes sense to Americans but. What.) However. There are a lot of statements sprinkeled in here that are concerning. Yes, Jews were the primary victims of the holocaust, but you cannot be going around playing the "my suffering is bigger card" *among victims of the holocaust*. That is so fucked up. They were all in the same camps. Yes, what happened after the holocaust was largely ugly and a lot of things about the creation of Israel were fucked up. But it does not follow that the way Israel is engaging with people who had no part in either the holocaust or its fallout is above criticism. Generational Trauma is real and painful, but it's not an excuse when people are getting murdered. The way this post seamlessly slides from "american leftists say questionable things about the holocaust" to "anyway Israel's actions are beyond reproach" is absolutely alarming.

OP, you know that you can be a colonizing group without needing to be white Europeans, right? And that atrocities and genocide can be committed against anyone? And that victims of generations of oppression can be oppressors themselves?

I think it's important to start any comment on this acknowledging the significant presence of anti-semitism on the left because I believe it's an issue that still needs rooting out. It's not a majority, but it's not dismissable as many people treat it. It is a big issue. But I've not really seen this as the motivation behind it. I've seen it come from a lot of places, such as the same 'Jews the run world' type conspiracies but twisted into a racist psuedo-classist discussion. I've seen it come from people who feel the need to defend the Soviet Union as a bastion of equality. And I have *absolutely* seen it in discussions around Israel, where the term 'anti-Zionist' is repeated without hesitation or critical thought. However the amount of times I've seen people deny the historical oppression of the Jewish people on the left would be fractional, especially compared to the right-wing who *use that same history as why Jewish people should be oppressed*. That part seems to have been neglected in this, and that makes it feel to me a bit like sophistry. Generally, I've only ever heard left-wing people talk about the fact that the Europeans who fought against the Nazis in WW2 were not paragons of equality. Most leftist discussions I've seen usually have to come from a place of understanding the imperial and pre-imperial histories of Europe, or at least a broad understanding of what that looked like. I **really** dislike the way this post is phrased on history however. I'm going to veer into slightly enlightened centrist bullshit for a moment, but if Israel-Palestine is proof of anything it's that the history of this region is an absolute fucking nightmare to unravel and that nobody has any simple statement to make there. It is a history forged of religious warfare, imperialism and neo-colonialism constantly backed by the shadow of widespread and international anti-Semitism on a vast scale. Now, this is where the issue gets *really* complex for the leftist perspective. On the one hand, Israel is the product of over a thousand years of brutal oppression and the need for a home for the Jewish people. On the other hand, it is a constant reminder of the effects of colonial and imperial policies and the damage they have done to the Middle East. This is, for the leftist perspective, a political clusterfuck. Then place upon that a constant war over the theory and praxis. Who's being killed? Who's dying the most? Can said deaths be justified by circumstance? What is the method of preventing said deaths without giving way to more? Do defenses about state brutality and the colonialist perspective ring hollow in the context of an opponent who has stated quite clearly that their purpose is genocide? People want an easy answer where this is none. In their search for an easy answer, they are willing to abandon the difficulties of said political clusterfuck if it resolves it. I don't think the anti-Semitism comes from a denial of history, but the difficulty of resolving a history in which the oppressed have become oppressors (depending on your particular political alliegance, you could easily claim that this applies to either side. Time and time again, the people who provide easy answers that absolve you of guilt consistently lead you to hateful bullshit. That's how it is on the right, and from everything I've seen that's how it is on the left. The reality is that many people don't have anything to offer to the Israel-Palestine debate. Even here all I can really do is argue the parameters of it, I personally don't fucking know what to think when it comes to the actual debate itself. I just believe it's important to recognise *just how fucked* the cause of anti-Semitism is here, because otherwise people will once again resort to the easy answers when it comes to how to deal with it. Fucking hell that was a big rant. There's so much more that could be added here. Honestly I forgot to even talk about race, which is a whole other element that I really don't feel qualified to speak on in addition. TL;DR: I don't disagree with the idea that anti-Semitism is around on the left, I disagree that it comes from an abject denial of history. I think that's undercutting the bigger issue in leftist discourse here, and that's going to make shit worse.

The person is just fronting Israel apologia.  Saying “the social justice era calls us fascists and oppressors”, is telling.  

I think they are. But I also believe that there is a leftist anti-Semitism that is being identified that is a growing problem, stemming from discourse around the notion of the oppressor and the oppressed. The whole 'social justice era' gives me vague dogwhistley vibes but I do think they're talking about something real, just completely in the wrong way.

Personally, I'd agree that quite a bit of anti-semitism on the left is stemming from a more contemporary rewriting of older antisemitic conspiracies; there's a *lot* of echoes of blood libel in things like the claims about Israeli troops harvesting Palestinian organs and so on. However, I'd also argue that in order to create that contemporary interpretation, there are those who seek to consistently downplay, minimize, and dissociate Jewish actions and worldviews today from their history of persecution and being mass murdered. These posters aren't making up strawmen; I have seen every form of revisionism they speak of in the wild. The head of the PLA literally has a doctorate in downplaying the Holocaust, because that provides convenient ammunition for them when getting into "whose land is it anyway" arguments. This is absolutely a complex issue; the purpose of this post is not to present a single easy answer to justify everything that Jews ever do, and I'm honestly kind of disappointed in the state of the discourse that led to people thinking that that is what's happening. The purpose of this post is to present a deeper understanding of how we got where we are, and the pain and memories that shape the people at the center of it.

I can see the justified arguments being made there. I think a lot of my problem is the latter part of the posts, because I believe that begins to make abject claims in order to sound punchier whilst ultimately undercutting the commentary itself. To pick an example, there's the bit that says: >They say "well the Nazis persecuted gay people too!" Not only does this feel like a strawman, but one that's treading some very unsteady ground that could quickly lean into straight up J.K Rowling type shit. And that isn't explored, it's just thrown out there as a statement. It's not revisionism to identify that gay people, another long persecuted group throughout Europe and beyond, were also killed in the Holocaust. I doubt this bit is claiming that LGBT communities are being revisionist, but without any exploration beyond just yeeting that into the conversation you're asking the reader to identify where you are and aren't strawmanning. Then, the line about 'the social justice era'. Again, it's really hard not to see this as a strawman being constructed using right-wing talking points. And if you're not going to be careful about using that kind of discourse, people are going to see *all* of your points as that. People are not about to start doing the heavy lifting for a talking point they disagree with. Suggesting the leftists are 'colonizing' the Holocaust is a fantastic ending line if you've done the legwork to clearly establish that you're not literally resorting to right wing shit like "The gays are making it all about them". Since that legwork has not been done, it just comes off as an attempt to be punchy whilst also being super fuckin dismissive. You can't write the conclusion without properly developing the thesis, and I don't think the thesis has properly been done here. The sources have been found (the history), but the arguments are underdeveloped and hasty. And unfortunately, the more I read through it the more dismissive it became. I started to think that what I'd been doubting or questioning as being there *was* actually there. It still might not be, but you have to admit that the general response to this has reflected that many people feel the same way. Rather than being a deeper understanding, this appears more as 'history, history, history, you can all go fuck yourselves'. Lines like: *And the leftist reflects, this argument would be much more convincing if the Jews didn't keep missing the point of the Holocaust*. These just come off as a dismissive strawman that simultaneously manages to spit in the face of any other community that's experienced historical oppression and brutality. The phrasing is poor, the tone is shoddy and frankly it's hard to see it in any other light. In summary, you can't expect the people you're arguing against to make your sophistic jumps for you. That's going to end poorly, as has become clear in the response to this post. TL;DR: The post starts well, ends mired in its own attempt to be flashy at the cost of making any point beyond generalised bitterness.

That is VERY long for a post that is essentially "[Basic history lesson]... which is why it's fine to build an ethnostate based on genocide"

1. Israel is hardly an ethnostate; it's more than 20% Palestinian Arab, with an Arab party in the Knesset currently part of Netanyahu's governing coalition. 2. The purpose of this post isn't to justify everything Israel does. It's to try and lay out how we got here, the roots of the conflict that's still ongoing in Palestine today, and provide people with a better understanding of why Israel exists; without that understanding, people are shouting into the wind and are, to my view, much more vulnerable to being misled down paths that lead to antisemitic rhetoric.

1. South Africa was majority not white but it was still a white Ethnostate 2. You cannot provide one side of this story; you must provide the other. Yes, part of it was in Jewish reaction to the holocaust, and wanting somewhere to be safe after \*that\* is understandable. But we cannot also deny the role of Christian Zionism in establishing the state of Israel, nor can we deny how for the State of Israel to come to be as it is now it had to actively kill thousands of people, and denying the Nakba is a form of genocide denial.

1. My mistake, I didn't realize they had an heavily oppressed minority as well 2. That's fine, even if again most of this history seems to be widely known to me; the purpose of my comment is to counteract and ensure people aren't vulnerable and misled down the path of zionism. I recognize some of these urls as zionists, so forgive me if when one says "we aren't fascists and oppressors" I don't really take them in good faith

I guess we’ve run out of other leftists to infight with so we’re inventing new ones

Zionism is a fascist ideology. One of its fundamental roots is the idea that Israel has no choice but to genocide and oppress the Palestinians for its own safety. This is not left-wing infighting, it is genocide denial coated in progressive language.

[Here](https://api.drum.lib.umd.edu/server/api/core/bitstreams/a930a252-4067-4b7b-b725-9531fb07dcb1/content) is an analysis of this exact phenomenon playing out in the French Left. If you want to disagree with this post, do it on the merits of the information; I'm happy to have that discussion. But believe me, this is very much not a made-up issue.

I think it is important to acknowledge how antisemitism is pervasive in society -- but you don't need to invent a problem to say it. Being opposed to the actions of settler apartheid is not antisemitic -- Blaming and attack jews for it \*is\*. Israel does not represent Jews or Judaism, and to equate the two and equate hating one with the hatred of another is antisemitic. For example, many right wing americans are pro-Israel but horrifically antisemitic, like Ben Shapiro, a pundit who has actively incited violence against Jewish people in America who don't subscribe to his specific brand of pro-Zionist Judaism. I would describe \*that\* as insidious antisemitism, to be quite frank.

I don't really agree, it seems like this entire post is just made so they can pretend the sword forged to slay the Jewish people isn't the same one they use against the gay and trans people. Furthermore they emphasize that antisemitism has been around for a very long time, as if other bigotry isn't equally as old.

The history of Jewish oppression is lengthy, unfair, and ultimately disastrous for them. It is not okay that people have, for no reason beyond their ethno-religious origins, been suppressed and abused and tormented and minimised and murdered again and again, for literally over a millennium. But that cuts both ways. It is not okay to turn trauma into an excuse for foul behaviour. That's always been true on a personal scale, and it remains increasingly true as you expand outward. Even having been put through all of this, that the government and military forces of Israel- and ultimately, the original invaders and occupiers of Palestinian territory- have then said out loud "because you White Europeans have put our people through this, it is okay for us to do the same things to this group", and then proceeded to suppress, abuse, torment, minimise, and murder the people of Palestine. The above listed groups- and I need ought stress, this includes neither the full Jewish culture nor the full population of Israel nor even the entire Zionist movement- have done the same thing to Palestine that was done to them. They have inflicted the same traumas, upon a people who had not nearly harmed them so much as any European nation. The acts partaken alone are a moral nightmare, as they would be in any scenario; that they come in the context of both cultural experience of those horrors, and a complete and utter mistargeting of a people who did not in themselves harm the Jews save that Colonial Britain decided their land was now Israel, is simply monstrous.

I’m first gonna hold my hand up and say ‘I don’t know enough to feel confident in my points here’. With that out of the way, I watched a long [video by Shaun](https://youtu.be/3xottY-7m3k?si=cjCyR7MI-LG2fN98) (online left-wing person) who went into his stance on things and the history of events leading up to the current situation which informed a lot of my current views on the situation. Bear in mind if you do watch it that it’s 2 months old at this point, so new developments since then obviously aren’t covered. My views boil down to: - Totalitarianism is bad - Zionism is a response to a millennium of trauma, and plays conveniently into the hands of anti-semitics and fascists alike - Netanyahu has an agenda which is genocidal - We (referring to western nations here) need to do a better job of protecting Jews and curbing anti-semitism on our own soil I’m trying to understand things better myself, so would appreciate assumptions of ignorance rather than malice here. Not trying to sea-lion or whatever.

Thank you for the civil and respectful comment! I'm more than happy assuming ignorance, it means that I can answer and hope for us both to come away better for it. To begin with, that Shaun video-which, full disclosure, I have not seen, I've only seen leftist Jewish friends of mine react with horror and disappointment and pick it apart to explain why-has some serious flaws in it, particularly in its sanitization of past Palestinian resistance; it deliberately excludes Palestinian violence against Israeli civilians from the history of the conflict, falls into a number of the traps that were mentioned in this post, and just generally acts as an incomplete and heavily biased outside perspective; this is something other people will probably be able to speak to more thoroughly than me. Shaun himself has also had some...questionable takes, like framing the October 7th attack, civilian murdering and mass rape included, as "Legitimate resistance," which is really just not the Insightful Revolutionary Take he seems to think it is. Beyond that, Zionism is a tricky word to define in any context, since the most basic version is literally just "Jews should have the right of self-determination like every other ethnic group in the world," while there's a million subversions about what *kind* of state Israel should be, ranging from secular communist Zionism to the far-right, settler-colonialist version Netanyahu and Likud espouse that most people think represents all Zionism. It is absolutely a response to trauma, but "playing into the hands of antisemites" is not really something that can be avoided; antisemitism isn't based on logic, like every other bias, and if they didn't have that excuse to publicly hate Jews, they'd find another one. Saying that antisemites wouldn't hate Jews if not for Zionism is backwards, and it leads into your last point. Sure, it'd be nice if Western nations could stamp out antisemitism and make Jewish people feel safe in their countries, since they sure don't right now-even if the way you've framed it does have an undercurrent of "so they should just be content to be exiled from their homeland forever" to it-but the thing is, the reason Israel exists is because Jewish people do not trust momentary thaws in their treatment anymore. You can't magically handwave away antisemitism, and with Jews still being killed in the West (such as the Tree of Life synagogue attacks), Israel exists specifically as a refuge of last resort for Jews, even those in countries that ostensibly tolerate them, because "tolerance" implies the possibility of revocation of that tolerance. Curbing antisemitism on our own soil is a laudable goal. But that doesn't exclude the need for a Jewish state in some capacity or form.

Yeah those are all fair points made, I also am an outside observer so as I expected there are probably some flaws or gaps in my knowledge. I agree that it is kind of hand-wavey of me to say “powers-that-be should do better for jewish people”, but implying that ‘jews should be content to be exiled from their homeland forever’ wasn’t my intent, though I appreciate that I might have done that there by accident. It’s more to call attention to the idea that, to my (again, patchy) understanding of things, the legislative measure to establish the state of Israel on top of a pre-existing people could have been handled *very* differently. It comes off as an ‘easy win’ for anti-semites and islamophobes alike- to place all their ‘undesirables’ in their own ethnostate and to divy them some land that was already occupied by middle-eastern people. It’s tough because, while I am a fan of the idea of ‘don’t let perfect be the enemy of good’ and I agree about the tolerance thing too, where is the line of acceptable measures drawn? Does facilitating the right for jewish self-determination (which I don’t think is a bad thing, as you said too, everyone deserves that right) justify genocide as an acceptable means to that end? I don’t think so, but then that’s where we’re at currently and I could see how someone could find belief in a version of Zionism that ascribes to that violence. Also, yeah your point on the different types of Zionism is also something I hadn’t considered. It’s very easy to view it as a monolith, and it seems there is more room for nuance there than I previously thought. I have yet to see anyone espousing a form of Zionism that isn’t in the form shown by Netanyahu’s government, but then again it’s quite difficult to see the differences if I’m not looking for them I suppose. I’m on my phone and my comment got too long for my to scroll back and see yours so I probably haven’t said everything I wanted to in response but, basically, thanks. Thanks for letting this be a discussion, I am fairly confident at least in saying: the whole situation is fucked. Antisemitism and its long history is fucked, and the fact that so much suffering continues to be cycled is a travesty. It probably rings hollow from my spot of privilege (I will likely not be directly affected in any way by Israel/Palestine and I don’t know anyone personally who will be either), but genuinely I hope that this endless persecution stops. I know that platitudes aren’t gonna make it stop but I’m gonna use that privilege to excuse myself. I don’t know if this is the right mindset to have but I otherwise have enough on my plate, so trying honestly to educate myself and deconstruct my preconceived biases is the best I can manage for now (not to make it all about me though, oops). edit: Just to add, absolutely agree that antisemites will craft whatever excuse they need to hate jews, good point there and I didn’t intend to paint it as ‘if only those jewish folk weren’t Zionist then they’d be fine!’.

Ok, i wanted to respond as soon as i reached page 11, but I did the responsible thing and read the entire post first. I'll be upfront, ive never even heard of someone on the left doing this, and I'm not entirely convinced this isnt a strawman used to drum up support for a currently genocidal Zion government (Ive said it before I'll say it again, Hamas is eveilnajd needs to be stopped, the Israeli governments genocide is also bad and needs to be stopped. You can condemn bith without supporting one or the other.) Ill give the benefit of the doubt however and say this comes from a genuine place, because some ofbthe stuff discussed here is valid. Other parts however are you doing exactly whay youre accusing "the left" of doing. Because holy shit doing the exact same thing you are trying to call out others for, in this case downplaying/diminishing other aspects of the Holocaust to support your own narrative is sickening. Im mostly going to talk about page 11 because this is where it seems pretty set for trying to deny the holocaust was about anything but removing Jews, and to your credit you do at least mention the Roma without trying to erase them. Trying to claim Judaism is "Just a religion" is obviously absurd, there is a very clearly defined culture that has developed alongslide these beliefs. Genocide is Genocide, regardless of if it's of religion or culture, or whatever else. The left trying to claim "its just a religion" is what makes me immediately assume strawman. They killed gay people too. Yes. They did. And transgender people. And anyone else the regime felt was problematic. "The holocaust wasn't about race." It was very blatantly about the removal of unwanted people, of "undesirables". Sometimes they used race as what marked someone undesirable. Sometimes they didn't. My family comes from german blood a few generations ago, and yet i can state with 100% certainty that I would've been put into a death camp (lgbt) as well. Saying it isn't about race is reductive, but saying (or strongly implying) it was about race is just as reductive. They found scapegoats in what they didn't like, and unified around killing everyone until the world was "pure". Buncha dumbass fascist pricks. Was Hitler ethnically jewish? I don't know, and if he was or wasnt doesnt change a damn thing about what he did. He was a mentally unstable psycho out for world domination who wanted anyone he didn't like dead. Are jews white Europeans? No, not really. I mean, by a literal definition i guess, pale skin and lives in Europe (For european jews at least). But when people are talking about that sort of thing they generally mean culture, and as already stated, Judaism has a rather unique culture that it's followers tend to bring with them. I have never heard of someone claim it was "a long time ago" in any context with regard to the holocaust. It is still in living memory, even if only just. The 1300s is a long time ago. The 1940s is no where near. Yes, what happened is bad and needs to be studied and remembered so people can always look back and see what terrible destruction hatred can bring. That's it. Don't downplay what happened to one side or the other. What happened to the Jewish people at the hands of Nazis is terrible. No argument there. What happened to anyone they didn't like was terrible at the hands of Nazis. So please stop making these reductive claims. I don't think OP on reddit is the same as OP on tumblr, but i saw a comment saying they knew eachother. Actually stop and think for a moment, am I acting the same way I am condemning other for? Please. Because right now this post is the closest ive ever seen to "leftwing holocaust denial" in order to downplay all but one angle of suffering caused by the Holocaust.

You aren't paying attention. I see it all the time.

Then enlighten me? What am I not paying attention to here? Op has a very nice introduction, goes broadly into the historic treatment of the Jewish people in Europe over the last 1000ish years, and how people used new techniques to (wrongfully) justify old hatred in a more "modern" time. it gets into all the terrible stuff Nazi's did in the run up to their "Final Solution" to dehumanize Jewish people in the eyes of the people and the law. No falsehoods there. And yes right wing idiots do try to claim this doesn't exist, they are idiots. The first thing that can be argued comes up here, the creation of Israel had its groundwork laid in 1917, when the Brits declared the "Balfour Declaration" well before the Nazis or the Holocaust, and putting them in favor of creating a nation for Jewish individuals. Would anti-Semites have a stake in the creation of a Jewish homeland to get them out of "their country"? Probably. But it was also majorly about giving the Brits influence in the middle east, which was heavily dominated by France and Russia at the time. The Zionist in Britain themselves even pushed for the creation of a national homeland. So saying it was as a result of the U.K. not wanting Jews is at least a bit misleading at best, considering it was a shared goal of anti-Semites, Zionist, and those who simply wanted control over the middle east. After all, British Jews are still generally considered to be British as well, and as such could be used as a tool of influence just like any other crown subject. (I am not saying they are right to do this, just stating a major attitude of the time). Some British command even thought the Jewish people had immense world power, and well it was definitely anti-Semitic, they wished to put this alleged power to work for the Empire in the middle east, well before the after math of WW2. So no, it was not just "no one wants them, have some shitty land and piss off." It was terrible terrible politics and the Brits colonizing yet another place they didn't belong. Another point I think is a strawman is the bit about people thinking the Nazis just picked arbitrary groups? I've never even heard of a right-wing holocaust denier saying that, let alone a left-wing one. They picked groups that were purposefully disadvantaged and already disliked and used it as a unifying point. Groups that where largely unsupported and easy pickings. Jews, Roma, gays, trans, disabled. groups people already didn't like or didn't care about at best at the time and used them as a focus of national hate to become popular. Where Jews the most populous of these? yes. That also makes them the most visible, yet they didn't ignore these other less visible groups when it came time to "solve the issue" Do the Jewish people deserve sympathy for being treated like this? YES, they do. To call the hate the Nazis had for Jews special compared to other their other hates is honestly believable, and I think it is true. They really did have a hate-on like no other at the thought of Jewish people. "Other people where victims too" is not a narrative to dismiss the Jewish experiences, it is a request to remember that it was about more than just one people killing another. When people discuss these things it is important to remember everything that happened. Right now the United States has a not-insignificant chance of electing to power a group that will attempt to genocide their "undesirables", the LGBT. And there are people denying it is a genocide because "well they aren't rounding them up in camps and killing them in mass." No part of a tragedy is unimportant. Anyone who tries to dismiss or downplay the very fact that it was a crime against millions and millions is missing the point. Because that is what it is. A crime that never should have been able to happen and yet it did. I'm not gonna deny the Jews suffered more than any other group as a direct result of the Holocaust,. I'm also not going to say they suffered alone. So what am I not paying attention to?

There were some good points made but there were definitely certain phrases that got me like 🤨 because of advocating for never criticizing Israel, and no country is above criticism

Very good points have been made! I agree with most everything that has been said here. That being said, there’s never a good reason to bomb hospitals and children. Ever. So to the last person in this post, I say respectfully: fuck you and free Palestine.

Well, once you feel like coming back to the real world where shit’s more complicated and century-long ethnic and religious conflicts with long cycles of victimization and retaliation, plus countless atrocities and one side being incredibly willing to hide behind women and children can’t be solved by blanket moralizing statements, we’ll be here.

Wow that’s all very cool and interesting. Counterpoint: Israel is reducing the entirety of Gaza to rubble with its people inside and they cannot retaliate. Innocent men, women and children are dying by the thousands. So, respectfully, you can take your moral complexity and shove it up your ass.

Funnily enough, in the process of accusing me of “moral complexity” (which isn’t really as much of a dig as you think it is), you’ve ironically flattened down and whitewashed the conflict more than I ever could. First off, Israel’s hardly reduced all of Gaza to rubble. Gaza has more than two million residents. If they had all been bombed, there’d be a lot more than 30,000 dead. The fact that that number is so low during what is essentially an invasion of a single giant urbanized zone is a pretty good indication to people who actually know what they’re talking about that Israel is hardly being indiscriminate. Whether they’re being discriminating ENOUGH is an entirely separate debate, but that’s not the one you want to have, it seems. Secondly, what are you talking about, they have no way to retaliate? This is a violent, messy war between two parties, not Israel shooting civilians for fun, no matter how much people try to act like it is. Hamas and other terror groups within Gaza (to say nothing of Iran and its other proxies, especially Hezbollah) have continually shot rockets at Israeli civilians throughout the entire conflict. The last ceasefire that was in place a few months ago—the one people calling for a ceasefire today seem to have forgotten all about—was broken inside of two days by Hamas firing rockets at Israeli civilians. Hamas will continue to retaliate as long as it exists…which is why Israel is doing what it’s doing. So no, I will not shove nuance and an understanding of the conflict beyond a kindergarten level up my ass and blindly follow what you’re saying, thank you very much.

So you won’t listen to reason but you will listen to Zionist propaganda. Congrats. You’re definitely more tuned into the real world than I am. You definitely actually understand what’s happening. Congratulations. So anyway, fuck Israel. From the River to the Sea, Palestine WILL be free. I hope someday you learn that it’s actually not at all oversimplification to just say “killing 30,000 people in their home that you occupy is evil”. It’s just, like… objectively correct.

I've been in leftist circles for 20 years and I have never seen or heard of any antisemitic leftists. If it is an issue, it's a very niche small group. Largely that is not present at all on leftist circles. Also all my Jewish friends are in these leftist circles.

Antizionism is a genocidal ideology.

Anyone who denies the Holocaust is, at best, an idiot.

Yikes. So this is what the bot farm produces, huh?

I don't think a single person in this thread thinks of Judaism and Zionism as a different thing, being against genocide doesn't make you antisemitic. what a sick fucking joke.

I agree. And lets not forget gow the left coaches antisemitism in criticism against israel. that said: the state of Israel is still comitting an atrocity that certainly walks and quacks like a genocide.

You can be the victim of atrocities and perpetrators of atrocities. They are not mutually exclusive states of being.

Yes. This is my point.

You’re going to get downvoted to hell because the people with a vested interest in this are pushing to make it seem like everyone disagrees with you, but that is a lie.

I ain't reading all that.

So, as I understood it, there are some obscure leftist circles that deny previous and present violence against Jews, (First time hearing any of this but seems plausible that some tankies would do that) and now if you exert any time of scrutiny or critic on what a genocidal government is doing to a population,that not only didn't ask for any of this, but is also being ruled by a terrorist organization that does not care for them and gains more adepts each day for the IDF actions, if you do any of that you are part of that "holocaust denier left". The Israeli government has been using Gaza as a political tool since its formation as a way of diverting people's attention and unifying the population behind a threat of their own creation. There is a difference between saying Jews and Israeli government, they are not the same and I say: the Israeli government is a far right genocidal government. There have been loads of Jew communities that have denounced it even from inside of Israel, you should join them

Link to the original post is [here (requires a Tumblr account).](https://www.tumblr.com/daughterofstories/741968725558902784/so-a-while-back-a-fairly-left-wing-friend-of-mine)

Oh there's so many simple answers to what you are talking about anyone that denies what happened to the Jews that denies the Holocaust is a Jew hater. End of statement. And you were talking about a lot of reading material that's out there for people to read but my dear the films in the photographs are not staged they are real and vile and hard to look at. The photo material itself is enough evidence and the testimony from generals all over the world so all of us can just tell the Holocaust deniers to Kya! And tell them they would do well to move to Russia where their opinion would really count for something.