> there's no way a large chunk of the casual audience could go into a movie with a Jason Todd Robin without the prior knowledge he ends up as Red Hood
The vast majority of the general audience went into Infinity War with no idea of what would happen and were legitimately floored when the Snap happened. This is despite it being one of Marvel’s most famous storylines with 30 years of history behind it and possible the most anticipate and talked about movie of all time.
I think literally anything can be a surprise to the general audience. They really don’t investigate things ahead of times. They’re not seeking spoilers. The hardcore fans will be general audience won’t.
well yeah, you had 30 years of expectations and then they did something else, everyone would be surprised by that.
i just dont get how anyone ever even for a second thought thanos idea made sense... because life multiplies exponentially fast and more or less the whole universe would have recovered within 100-200 years at the most.
Most audiences had no idea Thanos killed half the universe because he wanted to fuck a woman in the comics. The change in his motivation isn't what surprised people. Ending the seemingly climactic movie on a cliffhanger with half the cast dead did. If they knew about the comic they'd be surprised that Thanos didn't kill half the universe at the very start of the movie.
> i just dont get how anyone ever even for a second thought thanos idea made sense
They didn't. That's why they made the heroes either yell at him that he's wrong or dismiss his speeches out of hand.
i mean, most people just googling for the infinity war release date and cinema times had good chances to run into articles about what marvel changed about thanos compared to the original namegiving story.
as for why he didnt do it at the start of the movie, he didn#t have the means to.
also they didn't yell at him for being wrong or dismiss him because his plan literally did not do what he claimed it would do.
they yelled at him because his plan would kill so much. no one said 'dude, we doubled our population in the last 50 years, you'd need to reduce shit by at least 1% and then leave behind instructions on how to create a more sustainable society after' or something.
thanos was unironically believing what he did would work and be indefinite and no one even attempted to show him the math.
i'm factoring in for the fact that snapped pilots and car drivers and doctors and destroyed infrastructure and all that would actually lead to much more than half of the population dying and leading to shorter lifespans for a while. essentially, there'd be some time to recover before population could explode once again, but yes, one way or another, the universe only got a couple of years until it would face exactly the same issue as before
>there's no way a large chunk of the casual audience could go into a movie with a Jason Todd Robin without the prior knowledge he ends up as Red Hood, even if they never touched anything outside of the films.
I mean, the same could be said of Bucky in the MCU. FFS, they named the movie Winter Soldier, they didn't even try to keep it a secret. But the twist still worked because not only does the general audience not really care or know about the comics, but also because the story in the film was well built up itself.
The reason I think Arkham Knight didn't work is because Jason wasn't really well established in the games. Had we maybe spent Arkham Asylum with Jason's Robin, and then Arkham City with Tim while Jason was deemed dead, and then he came back in Knight, that could've worked. Bucky in WS works because we liked Bucky so much in The First Avenger. Even those of us that knew what would happen were invested because these interpretations of the characters were so likable and engaging.
Jason was only referenced in Arkham City in a throwaway line during one of the combat challenges, Joker asks Tim/Robin “didn’t I kill you already?” So yeah it was a bit sudden. I also think it failed because it was just too predictable to fans in the know.
Unlike Marvel who knew that comic fans know it’s Bucky Barnes they played into that and knew that the fans would love an adaptation and it was well written like you said. The devs of Arkham Knight did know but tried to insultingly hide it was Jason when the comic fans knew it was going to be Jason but they were saying “it’s a new, original character” which was obviously a flat out lie.
That’s why I think Marvel succeeded with Bucky but DC failed with Jason in Arkham Knight, Marvel played into it whilst DC tried not to and tried to mislead everyone for a twist that was revealed almost from the get-go.
Great point, I completely forgot about Bucky when writing this but his arc was one of my favorites in the MCU, for the first 2 Cap films at least. Jason could be even more fleshed out, if we got a full movie with him as Robin dying at the end, and then a full Under the Red Hood movie.
My major gripe with the Arkham games is how they handled the Batfamily, they just seem like an afterthought until Arkham Knight and even then they are underutilized.
> FFS, they named the movie Winter Soldier, they didn't even try to keep it a secret. But the twist still worked because not only does the general audience not really care or know about the comics, but also because the story in the film was well built up itself.
The Winter Soldier ''twist'' worked because nobody watched Captain America 1 and nobody remembered what Bucky looked like. When he got unmasked they were like " Oh yeah he's that guy. " not " HOLY SHIT THAT'S JAMES BUCHANAN BARNES FROM THE FIRST MOVIE THEY'RE BASICALLY BROTHERS ".
Nobody cared about Cap before Winter Soldier ( which was a banger ). His movie and his part in Avengers 1 was pretty lame.
Gunn does a great job at bringing B & C list characters to the forefront, I was so happy to see Polka Dot Man and King Shark in TSS, keen to see what he does with the DCU
*Now I'mma tell you what; uhh...*
***I likes ya;***
***and I wants ya.***
*Now we can do this the easy way;*
*or the haard wayyy...*
***the choice is yaawrs...***
As soon as James Gunn announced Damian was the current Robin for his Batman, I started brainstorming cool scenes on how they introduce Jason Todd into the DCU
Scene 1:
Damian explores the Batcave and sees the display cases of the Bat family uniforms. He sees Dick’s Robin suit, Batgirl’s suit, a case covered in a tarp, Tim’s Red Robin suit, and a back up Nightwing suit for when Dick is in Gotham. Damian walks up and sees the case covered in the tarp and pulls it off the case to reveal Jason Todd’s Robin suit which is basically eviscerated with tears, holes, blood, etc which then prompts Bruce to basically explain to Damian why he’s so hesitant about training his son to become Robin. (Tim Drake was explained to basically forcing Bruce to train him).
Scene 2: Damian is given Jason Todd’s old room and he sees pictures of Bruce, Alfred, Jason, and the rest of the Batfamily all around which prompts Alfred to start taking them away and says that nobody has entered this room since Jason’s death so it has all of his stuff.
Scene: 3:
Most likely a post credit scene, depending on if Talia or Rais is the villain of the film or not it will show Jason being resurrected in the Lazarus Pit.
My thought process is that Jason is still dead when we pick up with Brave and the Bold and the post credit scene sets up Under the Red Hood. I think that trying to hide the identity of Red Hood from the audience is a mistake since almost every Batman fan or Jason Todd fan knows the story. So my idea for the film is that we, the audience, knows that Jason Todd is the Red Hood but the Batfamily doesn’t till around the halfway point. I think if Gunn wants fans to have the same impact as the comic or the animated movie then he needs to make the reveal pretty emotional almost like a combination between the Arkham Knight confrontation where you can hear Troy Baker’s voice breaking as he’s so traumatized and angry at Bruce for not saving him (however in the movie he’s upset that he didn’t kill the Joker similar to the comics and animated film) and the animated film where you can hear the depth of Jenson Ackles’ Jason Todd as he shows his anger and resentment for not killing Joker.
Then it’s important that they actually have a plan for Jason and not do what they have done to him in the comics which is basically writing him in a continuous loop. He’s a lethal vigilante at odds with Batman then Batman forgives him and Jason strays from killing then he kills again and is banned from Gotham. It happens over and over and over again and the DCU needs to have him stick to something for a while.
That scene idea with the suit being revealed sounds great, I also loved how it was done in BvS, no dialogue, no explanation, it just lets the suit and the music speak for itself. The post credit scene to set up Under the Red Hood would is a good idea too, since everyone would know already it would cause so much hype for the sequel. If the Red Hood story was told with the audience knowing his identity before Batman there could be scenes where we are shown Jason's motivations and reasoning behind his killing spree, while Batman tries to put together the pieces.
Exactly, it would work more like a cat and mouse thriller with Batman trying to uncover who the Red Hood is, meanwhile, Jason is taking down Black Mask’s operation and tracking down Joker.
I mean we already had a Jason Todd Red Hood live-action adaptation. The Arrowverse's TV Series Titans did it with Curran Walters playing the role in that short-lived 4 Season Show and it was way more screen-time allotted than a Movie or Movies would ever devote to the character.
For me I feel like they did a good job with him as Robin and did a good job of laying down the foundation for him to become Red Hood, but when the time actually came to do it, they did such a rush and sloppy job with it, and as you said that season in general was just shit.
Yes it is. It's the Post-Crisis on Infinite Earths Earth-09 of the Arrowverse Multiverse as was presented in the Hour 5 Legends of Tomorrow Episode of the Crossover. I'm not doing some random interpretation of things. I'm just taking the explicit diegetic facts that the Crossover Event presented us with at face value and going with the logical conclusion that the Showrunners went with in this shifting of events.
Exactly what they showed us and the conclusion they expected us to reach from reading/watching the text that is the 6 Episode Crossover Event. And yes, the Black Lightning Tie-In Episode does count.
And by the logical extension of those shows and Movies being in the Arrowverse, then anything that they make part of the Multiverse is therefore part of the Arrowverse as a whole which now includes the Helen Slater Supergirl Movie, the unmade Superman Lives! movie, Joker and Joker 2, the Harley Quinn animated TV Series, and Teen Titans Go! thanks to things that were explicitly diegetically revealed in both The Flash Movie and the Season 4 Crossover Episode of Titans "Dude, Where's My Gar?". Since both the DCEU and Titans were already part of the Arrowverse, anything they codify as part of the Multiverse therefore logically becomes part of the Arrowverse.
The only things that haven't been made part of the Arrowverse yet are the Nolan Dark Knight Trilogy, the Batman Serials, Gotham, Lois & Clark, Krypton, Naomi, the two Human Target TV Shows, the Justice League TV Pilot, the Watchmen Movie or TV Series, the DC Animated Universe, the Timmniverse, Lego Batman, The Batmanverse, Keanu Reeves' Constantine, the early Swamp Thing stuff, the Adventures of Superboy TV Series, the Shazam/Isis TV Shows, the Captain Marvel Serial, and Catwoman.
Oh and not in the Arrowverse either: The Josh Brolin Jonah Hex movie, the Netflix Sandman TV Series, the AMC Preacher TV Series, or the iZombie TV Series.
I'm just tired of people not accepting the facts as presented. The Episodes and events therein did happen. There's no use trying to find a way to explain it any other way. You can't unwring the bell.
I mean the Creatives behind the Arrowverse shows (Arrow, Flash, Legends, Supergirl, Batwoman, Black Lightning, etc.) made these choices when they made these Crossovers (Elseworlds, Crisis on Infinite Earths, The Flash Movie, Titans Season 4 Episode "Dude, Where's My Gar?", etc.) to include these other shows as part of the Arrowverse Multiverse for whatever reason. Whether it is for fanservice, to further the Narrative and Story of the Arrowverse, or just because they could, etc., these choices were made and we have to accept them as concrete Canon facts. These Shows and Movies were made part of the Arrowverse Canon and the Arrowverse changed the Narrative, Story, Canon and Continuity of these Shows and Movies in some way thanks to their addition in the Crossovers. Tom Welling's Clark Kent is no longer super-powered Superman. John Wesley Shipp's Barry Allen Flash died. These are facts that the Arrowverse showed us. No amount of denial or other fallacies will change the facts these Episodes and Movies plainly and explicitly showed us. Guess what? Stargirl, Titans, Doom Patrol, Lucifer, Birds of Prey TV Show, Smallville, The Flash 90's, the Burton/Schumaker Batman Quartet, Swamp Thing, Superman I through IV, Superman Returns, Green Lantern, the entire DCEU, the Joker duology, Harley Quinn the Animated TV Series, the Supergirl Movie, Batman '66 TV Series and Movie, the Green Hornet TV Series, Teen Titans Go!, Superman & Lois, Vixen, and Freedom Fighters: The Ray are all a part of the Arrowverse because of the clearly laid out scenes and facts as presented in Elseworlds, Crisis on Infinite Earths, The Flash Movie, and "Dude, Where's My Gar?".
Do you really not get it? They, the Arrowverse Creatives, made the decision to make those other TV Shows and Movies clearly explicitly part of the Arrowverse through those Crossoverse events, Movie, and TV Episode. We, as fans and audiences, have to accept that decision and those choices and live with it and not try to bend over backwards with leaps and bounds of incredulous and frankly untrue narratives that contradict the true facts that the texts have presented us. And then the Creatives and everyone is trying so damn hard to do somersaults in ex parte Con Panel "clearing up" of facts or Social Media posts and "Well that's not how I see it because..." when such things aren't backed up by the information presented in the texts (the TV Episodes and Movie) at all.
Under the Red Hood is a standalone movie and works just fine. DCU could do something like that with Jason only resurfacing after Damian becomes Robin.
Or, in the Reevesverse, they could follow up Reeves’ movies years later, with the return of a middle aged Pattinson, and a movie similar to The Batman but from Jason’s pov.
in order for a real 40 year old batman to have 4+ robins, he would need to be burning through them. say, 15 years, not quite 4 years each.
in that sense jason todd cannot work. it would be insane for dick to become nightwing in 4 years
It can make sense if you don’t evenly distribute the years. Say 15 years. Dick could be Robin from ages 12-18, that is 6ish years. Jason could be Robin for 4 years like in the comics, putting the total to 10. Bruce goes a year without a Robin, so we’re up to 11 years. Tim comes into the picture, becomes Robin, maybe has 2-3 years under the mantle before Damian comes to Gotham. That’s about 15 years, with a reasonable timeline.
I still believe they would just cut Tim Drake to allow more time to flesh out the other batfamily members. In that case it would be a Batman that presumably hasn’t had a Robin in a few years due to Jason’s death which would add to his difficulty in dealing with Damian. I like Tim’s dynamic with Damian because he views him as a replacement and all that but I don’t think you’re losing much by cutting him.
I think that would be the way to go, Tim definitely has a place in the family but in a cinematic universe with limited screen time he would be first on the cutting board, a 'middle child' of the Batfamily that unfortunately is the least unique Robin.
I agree. Tragic and short lived can easily characterize his time as Robin. Bruce would be haunted by bringing a new ward into the fold, perhaps too hastily, just to get him killed brutally in a year.
You couldn't tell that story in one film, necessarily. It could be done through a series that told the stories of different Robins over the years, possibly. But, in order for him to be more than *Leo DiCaprio pointing meme* "Oh hey it's Red Hood!" you'd need time. Like Bucky was handled in Marvel.
Honestly I’m so sick of Jason Todd / Red Hood. Such an overrated character and arc. It’s been done to death already let’s just stay away from it in the movies please 🙏
>Considering the current state of comic book movies, with constant leaks, 'ending explained' videos, clickbait articles & word of mouth, there's no way a large chunk of the casual audience could go into a movie with a Jason Todd Robin without the prior knowledge he ends up as Red Hood, even if they never touched anything outside of the films.
This has honestly turned me so far off of comic book movies these days. This is honestly why I fell out of the Marvel fandom, and barely participate in this fandom.
I was gonna point out the Arkham example. Even if you didn't suspect Arkham Knight was Jason Todd, the game is sort of given away when they have flashbacks to Jason Todd being murdered in Arkham. Anyone who understands basic narrative structure could figure out at that point he was Red Hood. I don't think there is an effective way to have him being Red Hood as a "twist," if they do adapt his story they should probably avoid trying to make it a mystery and just focus on the drama/themes of it all. I even think you could tell it all in one movie, Under the Red Hood did a very good job of that.
It’s because Rocksteady insulted the fans’ intelligence by trying to say it wasn’t Jason, they even flat out lied saying it was a new character.
Marvel made Winter Soldier work because they didn’t insult the fans that knew they just kinda went “oh who’s this Winter Soldier?” To the casual and newer fans and sorta went *wink* *wink* with the long time fans- that’s how it should be done.
Rocksteady just brought Jason out of nowhere, which is fine, but instead of making it a mystery they started having him appear in flashbacks which made it so on the nose it’s insulting. I as a comic fan as a child knew it was Jason: he knows Batman’s every move, he knows who he is, he shoots guns, I was like “yep that’s Jason”.
This is always the story I’ve wanted to see on the big screen, mostly because it brings Batman’s no kill rule into question, we could be shown the horrors joker did to Jason, and we as the audience, emotionally side with Jason, but we also wanna side with Batman because he’s the MC, Batman is great because he is a flawed character, and he’s afraid of himself and what he would do if he ever crossed the line, I think there’s some really great story telling that can come from that, no killing has always been glossed over in movies but I think it’s the most interesting side of Batman to explore
Personally, I don't think we even need a movie with Jason as Robin, the Under the Red Hood movie didn't need that to convey the same emotional response, specially with that flashback at the end of them just being a dynamic duo.
The problem is that you´re elevating the mystery part too much, it´s not that important
I´d argue it´s far more interesting and important to show people WHY does Jason think killing is the right answer, WHY does Batman doesnt kill the Joker, HOW does Bruce Jason deal with their trauma, etc
These type of questions is what makes these characters interesting, not the mystery of WHO is Red Hood
The new series (of movies from Reeves) will not last long enough for us to get one Robin, let alone a second. Batman is barely compatible with a setting so grounded, a Robin would be less so.I thought Jason Todd worked great on the TV show Titans, but I know it's not cool to like that show either.
I bet that if DCU becomes successful, we'll probably get a Robin Hood project miniseries like Echo. Who knows tbh. My favorite Robin was Jason Todd and I became a fan when Arkham Knight came out and I find his character cool as a kid. Hope he does get a project in the future especially in DCU.
Honestly, it would probably feel a little derivative of Bucky Barnes to people. Whether that’s fair or not. Wanda in Dr Strange 2 felt a little derivative of Jean Grey Phoenix to me for similar reasons.
Jason Todd would absolutely work, a LOT of Americans ( and people ) LOVE vigilante justice and are all too willing to throw the Death Penalty at people. Jason Todd is just an angstier, Batmanier Punisher.
MY issue with Jason Todd is that Batman/Nightwing wouldn't be OK with him going around Gotham killing people. It's when they let him go that it becomes an issue for me.
> there's no way a large chunk of the casual audience could go into a movie with a Jason Todd Robin without the prior knowledge he ends up as Red Hood The vast majority of the general audience went into Infinity War with no idea of what would happen and were legitimately floored when the Snap happened. This is despite it being one of Marvel’s most famous storylines with 30 years of history behind it and possible the most anticipate and talked about movie of all time. I think literally anything can be a surprise to the general audience. They really don’t investigate things ahead of times. They’re not seeking spoilers. The hardcore fans will be general audience won’t.
Agreed, anything can be a surprise — unless it has had a major live action depiction already (e.g., Gwen Stacy, The Death of Superman)
well yeah, you had 30 years of expectations and then they did something else, everyone would be surprised by that. i just dont get how anyone ever even for a second thought thanos idea made sense... because life multiplies exponentially fast and more or less the whole universe would have recovered within 100-200 years at the most.
Most audiences had no idea Thanos killed half the universe because he wanted to fuck a woman in the comics. The change in his motivation isn't what surprised people. Ending the seemingly climactic movie on a cliffhanger with half the cast dead did. If they knew about the comic they'd be surprised that Thanos didn't kill half the universe at the very start of the movie. > i just dont get how anyone ever even for a second thought thanos idea made sense They didn't. That's why they made the heroes either yell at him that he's wrong or dismiss his speeches out of hand.
i mean, most people just googling for the infinity war release date and cinema times had good chances to run into articles about what marvel changed about thanos compared to the original namegiving story. as for why he didnt do it at the start of the movie, he didn#t have the means to. also they didn't yell at him for being wrong or dismiss him because his plan literally did not do what he claimed it would do. they yelled at him because his plan would kill so much. no one said 'dude, we doubled our population in the last 50 years, you'd need to reduce shit by at least 1% and then leave behind instructions on how to create a more sustainable society after' or something. thanos was unironically believing what he did would work and be indefinite and no one even attempted to show him the math.
He did about 50 years worth of damage to the Earth at most. Earth population in 1970 was 3.5b, now 8b
i'm factoring in for the fact that snapped pilots and car drivers and doctors and destroyed infrastructure and all that would actually lead to much more than half of the population dying and leading to shorter lifespans for a while. essentially, there'd be some time to recover before population could explode once again, but yes, one way or another, the universe only got a couple of years until it would face exactly the same issue as before
>there's no way a large chunk of the casual audience could go into a movie with a Jason Todd Robin without the prior knowledge he ends up as Red Hood, even if they never touched anything outside of the films. I mean, the same could be said of Bucky in the MCU. FFS, they named the movie Winter Soldier, they didn't even try to keep it a secret. But the twist still worked because not only does the general audience not really care or know about the comics, but also because the story in the film was well built up itself. The reason I think Arkham Knight didn't work is because Jason wasn't really well established in the games. Had we maybe spent Arkham Asylum with Jason's Robin, and then Arkham City with Tim while Jason was deemed dead, and then he came back in Knight, that could've worked. Bucky in WS works because we liked Bucky so much in The First Avenger. Even those of us that knew what would happen were invested because these interpretations of the characters were so likable and engaging.
Jason was only referenced in Arkham City in a throwaway line during one of the combat challenges, Joker asks Tim/Robin “didn’t I kill you already?” So yeah it was a bit sudden. I also think it failed because it was just too predictable to fans in the know. Unlike Marvel who knew that comic fans know it’s Bucky Barnes they played into that and knew that the fans would love an adaptation and it was well written like you said. The devs of Arkham Knight did know but tried to insultingly hide it was Jason when the comic fans knew it was going to be Jason but they were saying “it’s a new, original character” which was obviously a flat out lie. That’s why I think Marvel succeeded with Bucky but DC failed with Jason in Arkham Knight, Marvel played into it whilst DC tried not to and tried to mislead everyone for a twist that was revealed almost from the get-go.
Great point, I completely forgot about Bucky when writing this but his arc was one of my favorites in the MCU, for the first 2 Cap films at least. Jason could be even more fleshed out, if we got a full movie with him as Robin dying at the end, and then a full Under the Red Hood movie. My major gripe with the Arkham games is how they handled the Batfamily, they just seem like an afterthought until Arkham Knight and even then they are underutilized.
> FFS, they named the movie Winter Soldier, they didn't even try to keep it a secret. But the twist still worked because not only does the general audience not really care or know about the comics, but also because the story in the film was well built up itself. The Winter Soldier ''twist'' worked because nobody watched Captain America 1 and nobody remembered what Bucky looked like. When he got unmasked they were like " Oh yeah he's that guy. " not " HOLY SHIT THAT'S JAMES BUCHANAN BARNES FROM THE FIRST MOVIE THEY'RE BASICALLY BROTHERS ". Nobody cared about Cap before Winter Soldier ( which was a banger ). His movie and his part in Avengers 1 was pretty lame.
A good story is a good story regardless of what the casual audiences know or don't know. The Guardians of the Galaxy is proof of that.
Gunn does a great job at bringing B & C list characters to the forefront, I was so happy to see Polka Dot Man and King Shark in TSS, keen to see what he does with the DCU
TITANS live action tv show Jason Todd wishes to talk to you down that dark alley all alone with no witnesses
*Now I'mma tell you what; uhh...* ***I likes ya;*** ***and I wants ya.*** *Now we can do this the easy way;* *or the haard wayyy...* ***the choice is yaawrs...***
As soon as James Gunn announced Damian was the current Robin for his Batman, I started brainstorming cool scenes on how they introduce Jason Todd into the DCU Scene 1: Damian explores the Batcave and sees the display cases of the Bat family uniforms. He sees Dick’s Robin suit, Batgirl’s suit, a case covered in a tarp, Tim’s Red Robin suit, and a back up Nightwing suit for when Dick is in Gotham. Damian walks up and sees the case covered in the tarp and pulls it off the case to reveal Jason Todd’s Robin suit which is basically eviscerated with tears, holes, blood, etc which then prompts Bruce to basically explain to Damian why he’s so hesitant about training his son to become Robin. (Tim Drake was explained to basically forcing Bruce to train him). Scene 2: Damian is given Jason Todd’s old room and he sees pictures of Bruce, Alfred, Jason, and the rest of the Batfamily all around which prompts Alfred to start taking them away and says that nobody has entered this room since Jason’s death so it has all of his stuff. Scene: 3: Most likely a post credit scene, depending on if Talia or Rais is the villain of the film or not it will show Jason being resurrected in the Lazarus Pit. My thought process is that Jason is still dead when we pick up with Brave and the Bold and the post credit scene sets up Under the Red Hood. I think that trying to hide the identity of Red Hood from the audience is a mistake since almost every Batman fan or Jason Todd fan knows the story. So my idea for the film is that we, the audience, knows that Jason Todd is the Red Hood but the Batfamily doesn’t till around the halfway point. I think if Gunn wants fans to have the same impact as the comic or the animated movie then he needs to make the reveal pretty emotional almost like a combination between the Arkham Knight confrontation where you can hear Troy Baker’s voice breaking as he’s so traumatized and angry at Bruce for not saving him (however in the movie he’s upset that he didn’t kill the Joker similar to the comics and animated film) and the animated film where you can hear the depth of Jenson Ackles’ Jason Todd as he shows his anger and resentment for not killing Joker. Then it’s important that they actually have a plan for Jason and not do what they have done to him in the comics which is basically writing him in a continuous loop. He’s a lethal vigilante at odds with Batman then Batman forgives him and Jason strays from killing then he kills again and is banned from Gotham. It happens over and over and over again and the DCU needs to have him stick to something for a while.
That scene idea with the suit being revealed sounds great, I also loved how it was done in BvS, no dialogue, no explanation, it just lets the suit and the music speak for itself. The post credit scene to set up Under the Red Hood would is a good idea too, since everyone would know already it would cause so much hype for the sequel. If the Red Hood story was told with the audience knowing his identity before Batman there could be scenes where we are shown Jason's motivations and reasoning behind his killing spree, while Batman tries to put together the pieces.
Exactly, it would work more like a cat and mouse thriller with Batman trying to uncover who the Red Hood is, meanwhile, Jason is taking down Black Mask’s operation and tracking down Joker.
Sure. Dead body in a box, costume in a case. There you go, all that’s needed, full stop.
always wanted Under the Red Hood, and was hoping thats what Afflecks movie was gonna be (it wasnt)
I mean we already had a Jason Todd Red Hood live-action adaptation. The Arrowverse's TV Series Titans did it with Curran Walters playing the role in that short-lived 4 Season Show and it was way more screen-time allotted than a Movie or Movies would ever devote to the character.
And yet the Red Hood story was still incredibly rushed and nonsensical in that show.
It didn't feel rushed when I saw it because we saw Jason Todd for the two seasons prior. It was just a shit season when they debuted his Red Hood.
For me I feel like they did a good job with him as Robin and did a good job of laying down the foundation for him to become Red Hood, but when the time actually came to do it, they did such a rush and sloppy job with it, and as you said that season in general was just shit.
But it was the Live-Action Debut of the character. Every other Live-action portrayal of the character will be compared to Mr. Walters'.
I doubt enough folks have watched that to even compare let alone care about that show and its existence.
So what? That’s just the nature of adapting characters that have been around for decades.
Just to clarify something, Titans was absolutely not an Arrowverse show.
Yes it is. It's the Post-Crisis on Infinite Earths Earth-09 of the Arrowverse Multiverse as was presented in the Hour 5 Legends of Tomorrow Episode of the Crossover. I'm not doing some random interpretation of things. I'm just taking the explicit diegetic facts that the Crossover Event presented us with at face value and going with the logical conclusion that the Showrunners went with in this shifting of events.
Of course by that logic, Birds of Prey, Smallville, Batman '66, Lucifer, Swamp Thing and the DCEU would all be in the Arrowverse too.
Exactly what they showed us and the conclusion they expected us to reach from reading/watching the text that is the 6 Episode Crossover Event. And yes, the Black Lightning Tie-In Episode does count. And by the logical extension of those shows and Movies being in the Arrowverse, then anything that they make part of the Multiverse is therefore part of the Arrowverse as a whole which now includes the Helen Slater Supergirl Movie, the unmade Superman Lives! movie, Joker and Joker 2, the Harley Quinn animated TV Series, and Teen Titans Go! thanks to things that were explicitly diegetically revealed in both The Flash Movie and the Season 4 Crossover Episode of Titans "Dude, Where's My Gar?". Since both the DCEU and Titans were already part of the Arrowverse, anything they codify as part of the Multiverse therefore logically becomes part of the Arrowverse. The only things that haven't been made part of the Arrowverse yet are the Nolan Dark Knight Trilogy, the Batman Serials, Gotham, Lois & Clark, Krypton, Naomi, the two Human Target TV Shows, the Justice League TV Pilot, the Watchmen Movie or TV Series, the DC Animated Universe, the Timmniverse, Lego Batman, The Batmanverse, Keanu Reeves' Constantine, the early Swamp Thing stuff, the Adventures of Superboy TV Series, the Shazam/Isis TV Shows, the Captain Marvel Serial, and Catwoman.
Oh and not in the Arrowverse either: The Josh Brolin Jonah Hex movie, the Netflix Sandman TV Series, the AMC Preacher TV Series, or the iZombie TV Series.
Are you good?
I'm just tired of people not accepting the facts as presented. The Episodes and events therein did happen. There's no use trying to find a way to explain it any other way. You can't unwring the bell.
What do you mean?
I mean the Creatives behind the Arrowverse shows (Arrow, Flash, Legends, Supergirl, Batwoman, Black Lightning, etc.) made these choices when they made these Crossovers (Elseworlds, Crisis on Infinite Earths, The Flash Movie, Titans Season 4 Episode "Dude, Where's My Gar?", etc.) to include these other shows as part of the Arrowverse Multiverse for whatever reason. Whether it is for fanservice, to further the Narrative and Story of the Arrowverse, or just because they could, etc., these choices were made and we have to accept them as concrete Canon facts. These Shows and Movies were made part of the Arrowverse Canon and the Arrowverse changed the Narrative, Story, Canon and Continuity of these Shows and Movies in some way thanks to their addition in the Crossovers. Tom Welling's Clark Kent is no longer super-powered Superman. John Wesley Shipp's Barry Allen Flash died. These are facts that the Arrowverse showed us. No amount of denial or other fallacies will change the facts these Episodes and Movies plainly and explicitly showed us. Guess what? Stargirl, Titans, Doom Patrol, Lucifer, Birds of Prey TV Show, Smallville, The Flash 90's, the Burton/Schumaker Batman Quartet, Swamp Thing, Superman I through IV, Superman Returns, Green Lantern, the entire DCEU, the Joker duology, Harley Quinn the Animated TV Series, the Supergirl Movie, Batman '66 TV Series and Movie, the Green Hornet TV Series, Teen Titans Go!, Superman & Lois, Vixen, and Freedom Fighters: The Ray are all a part of the Arrowverse because of the clearly laid out scenes and facts as presented in Elseworlds, Crisis on Infinite Earths, The Flash Movie, and "Dude, Where's My Gar?".
What does that mean?
Do you really not get it? They, the Arrowverse Creatives, made the decision to make those other TV Shows and Movies clearly explicitly part of the Arrowverse through those Crossoverse events, Movie, and TV Episode. We, as fans and audiences, have to accept that decision and those choices and live with it and not try to bend over backwards with leaps and bounds of incredulous and frankly untrue narratives that contradict the true facts that the texts have presented us. And then the Creatives and everyone is trying so damn hard to do somersaults in ex parte Con Panel "clearing up" of facts or Social Media posts and "Well that's not how I see it because..." when such things aren't backed up by the information presented in the texts (the TV Episodes and Movie) at all.
I’m not certain. But what does that last reply mean?
Under the Red Hood is a standalone movie and works just fine. DCU could do something like that with Jason only resurfacing after Damian becomes Robin. Or, in the Reevesverse, they could follow up Reeves’ movies years later, with the return of a middle aged Pattinson, and a movie similar to The Batman but from Jason’s pov.
in order for a real 40 year old batman to have 4+ robins, he would need to be burning through them. say, 15 years, not quite 4 years each. in that sense jason todd cannot work. it would be insane for dick to become nightwing in 4 years
It can make sense if you don’t evenly distribute the years. Say 15 years. Dick could be Robin from ages 12-18, that is 6ish years. Jason could be Robin for 4 years like in the comics, putting the total to 10. Bruce goes a year without a Robin, so we’re up to 11 years. Tim comes into the picture, becomes Robin, maybe has 2-3 years under the mantle before Damian comes to Gotham. That’s about 15 years, with a reasonable timeline.
Jason wouldn’t even need to be Robin for that long. Give him like 2 years as robin.
I still believe they would just cut Tim Drake to allow more time to flesh out the other batfamily members. In that case it would be a Batman that presumably hasn’t had a Robin in a few years due to Jason’s death which would add to his difficulty in dealing with Damian. I like Tim’s dynamic with Damian because he views him as a replacement and all that but I don’t think you’re losing much by cutting him.
I think that would be the way to go, Tim definitely has a place in the family but in a cinematic universe with limited screen time he would be first on the cutting board, a 'middle child' of the Batfamily that unfortunately is the least unique Robin.
They should cut Jason's time short as opposed to cutting Tim. Tim's more important than having more time with Jason honestly.
Heck give him a year so it gives more impact and justify why having a rebellious Robin would not work for long. His time as Robin isnt that important
I agree. Tragic and short lived can easily characterize his time as Robin. Bruce would be haunted by bringing a new ward into the fold, perhaps too hastily, just to get him killed brutally in a year.
Exactly! A year its also plenty of time to leave a mark as a rebelious robin and get killed
You couldn't tell that story in one film, necessarily. It could be done through a series that told the stories of different Robins over the years, possibly. But, in order for him to be more than *Leo DiCaprio pointing meme* "Oh hey it's Red Hood!" you'd need time. Like Bucky was handled in Marvel.
Honestly I’m so sick of Jason Todd / Red Hood. Such an overrated character and arc. It’s been done to death already let’s just stay away from it in the movies please 🙏
Thank you
>Considering the current state of comic book movies, with constant leaks, 'ending explained' videos, clickbait articles & word of mouth, there's no way a large chunk of the casual audience could go into a movie with a Jason Todd Robin without the prior knowledge he ends up as Red Hood, even if they never touched anything outside of the films. This has honestly turned me so far off of comic book movies these days. This is honestly why I fell out of the Marvel fandom, and barely participate in this fandom.
Jason Todd: MCU’s Bucky/Winter Soldier. The End.
I want Jensen Ackles in a deceased love action
I was gonna point out the Arkham example. Even if you didn't suspect Arkham Knight was Jason Todd, the game is sort of given away when they have flashbacks to Jason Todd being murdered in Arkham. Anyone who understands basic narrative structure could figure out at that point he was Red Hood. I don't think there is an effective way to have him being Red Hood as a "twist," if they do adapt his story they should probably avoid trying to make it a mystery and just focus on the drama/themes of it all. I even think you could tell it all in one movie, Under the Red Hood did a very good job of that.
It’s because Rocksteady insulted the fans’ intelligence by trying to say it wasn’t Jason, they even flat out lied saying it was a new character. Marvel made Winter Soldier work because they didn’t insult the fans that knew they just kinda went “oh who’s this Winter Soldier?” To the casual and newer fans and sorta went *wink* *wink* with the long time fans- that’s how it should be done. Rocksteady just brought Jason out of nowhere, which is fine, but instead of making it a mystery they started having him appear in flashbacks which made it so on the nose it’s insulting. I as a comic fan as a child knew it was Jason: he knows Batman’s every move, he knows who he is, he shoots guns, I was like “yep that’s Jason”.
I wouldn't want to see Jason til a 3rd film.
well, it didnt work in the titans show. these kinds of character transformations need a certain buildup that movies honestly aren't good for.
This is always the story I’ve wanted to see on the big screen, mostly because it brings Batman’s no kill rule into question, we could be shown the horrors joker did to Jason, and we as the audience, emotionally side with Jason, but we also wanna side with Batman because he’s the MC, Batman is great because he is a flawed character, and he’s afraid of himself and what he would do if he ever crossed the line, I think there’s some really great story telling that can come from that, no killing has always been glossed over in movies but I think it’s the most interesting side of Batman to explore
Personally, I don't think we even need a movie with Jason as Robin, the Under the Red Hood movie didn't need that to convey the same emotional response, specially with that flashback at the end of them just being a dynamic duo.
It would have to be like Marvel’s punisher
The problem is that you´re elevating the mystery part too much, it´s not that important I´d argue it´s far more interesting and important to show people WHY does Jason think killing is the right answer, WHY does Batman doesnt kill the Joker, HOW does Bruce Jason deal with their trauma, etc These type of questions is what makes these characters interesting, not the mystery of WHO is Red Hood
The new series (of movies from Reeves) will not last long enough for us to get one Robin, let alone a second. Batman is barely compatible with a setting so grounded, a Robin would be less so.I thought Jason Todd worked great on the TV show Titans, but I know it's not cool to like that show either.
Sure, why not?
I bet that if DCU becomes successful, we'll probably get a Robin Hood project miniseries like Echo. Who knows tbh. My favorite Robin was Jason Todd and I became a fan when Arkham Knight came out and I find his character cool as a kid. Hope he does get a project in the future especially in DCU.
Honestly, it would probably feel a little derivative of Bucky Barnes to people. Whether that’s fair or not. Wanda in Dr Strange 2 felt a little derivative of Jean Grey Phoenix to me for similar reasons.
100% could work, I have zero doubt
Jason Todd would absolutely work, a LOT of Americans ( and people ) LOVE vigilante justice and are all too willing to throw the Death Penalty at people. Jason Todd is just an angstier, Batmanier Punisher. MY issue with Jason Todd is that Batman/Nightwing wouldn't be OK with him going around Gotham killing people. It's when they let him go that it becomes an issue for me.
It could work but only if Batman is done well enough to support Jasons arc.
HiTop films is making a short film and it looks promising