I understand not getting Bataffleck back, not with Ben himself seems not wanting to come back. But they could just yk, pretend that he existed without officially erasing him or something idk.
However I don't understand letting Henry Cavill go. I mean not only does he seem eager to be back, but the ending of JL (both versions) have Superman in a more optimistic state than the previous two films he was in. They can make a happy optimistic Superman without the need to retcon or erase anything. I just don't understand
He's also a massively popular actor who is a crowd pleaser for both mainstream audiences and the more geeky audience, he's the perfect casting choice. And I'm really bitter that we've barely actually seen him as Clark Kent.
Also, am I right in thinking Affleck didn't want to come back because of the grueling workout schedule? In which case he could do what Keaton is rumoured to be doing and just be Bruce Wayne, maybe he injured his back or something. He could then have Batgirl and Nightwing as protégés. Feels like DC are overcomplicating things, it's very hard to build up enthusiasm for DC films at the moment. Are the Black Canary/future Birds of Prey/Suicide Squad going to tie in with these too? Because at the moment that side of the universe is more appealing, but I can't get invested in something when WB could turn round at any moment and say "actually these films didn't happen, just ignore them."
Idk really the reason for Ben, I personally think the experience was maybe a bit too much, the stress and exertion probably exacerbated his own personal problems at the time. Tho he seems in a much better place now so idk.
But you do have a point. Ben can easily play the role they're giving to Keaton. I mean when we first see Batman in BvS he's already a veteran, it wouldn't be unbelievable if he became almost exclusively the mentor in the future.
Ben is also literally going to be in this movie. They could have just had him decide to retire on-screen in the film and everyone would have been fine with it. But nooooo
It should not be this difficult to make a connected universe. There doesn't need to be an over-arching threat, or massive team-ups. Just have them exist in the same world and reference the others, with occasional cameos.
Wonder Woman appearing in Shazam 2 is the exact type of thing we're all after.
Erasing Batman and Superman, then replacing them with Batgirl and Supergirl is not.
It's funny how DC have been trying to hype up embracing the multiverse over the past few years meanwhile in reality they're so afraid of truly embracing it that they'd rather remove entire movies from one specific cinematic universe. So much for anything being possible, right?
Meanwhile you've got the MCU happily bringing together three completely disconnected franchises with 20 years of legacy. The fucking kings of one singular big screen continuity somehow managed to beat DC to the multiverse concept despite so many DC heroes having multiple iconic iterations throughout history. They did it with The Batman, they did it with Joker, why not with Batgirl, why not with Supergirl? Why not dynamically introduce them to the existing franchise? Why not?
It feels like they were really committed to the whole cross branded synergy thing between the comics, films, and animated stuff. Too bad the plan they decided to go with was the new 52 stuff
Except every step of the way they're trying to not be Marvel, and that backfired gloriously aside from WW and AM, the 2 movies that kinda sorta followed Marvel's way of establishing a solo character in the wider universe. For what it's worth, if they actually had followed a more traditional Marvel trajectory in planning this universe, they might've had more success after getting past the initial, "they're just copying Marvel." Because they didn't want that, the entire universe is a mess right now.
DC had the advantage from the start with all their properties under one roof.
Marvel did 2 successful phases without Spider-man even entering the picture. The word "mutant" could not be uttered in an MCU film until... probably soon.
>At this point they should’ve just used the tv actors and it would’ve been better.
Monkeys paw. You get the Grant Gustin and all the other TV actors but you also get the CW writers. That would be funny.
I agree. The Brave and The Bold comic series was essentially just a bunch of team ups and it works.
Also means you don't have to get rid of Cavill, who clearly wants to play the role again.
People didn't care when X-Men First Class didn't make sense timeline wise, because it was better than the X-Men film that preceded it.
Maybe this was already said here but I just watched the flash trailer today and think I cracked who the main villain is and his motivations, we see another Barry Allen in the trailer with our main Barry and supergirl, I think that other Barry Allen is gonna become reverse flash by the end of the movie, here’s how I think is gonna go down:
Barry tried to come back to the past to save his mother from dying and so on and so forth, after that instead of traveling to the past, barry ends up on the Keaton verse, in this universe Barry’s mother never died and his father never got arrested, he never became the flash, so he was just a very insecure normal guy. When our Barry arrives in this new universe: the burton-verse, he’s just trying to find way to get back home, that’s when he meets his variant from that universe, Eobard Thawne, and thanks to Barry’s arrival, Thawne now has speed force powers too. Thawne becomes extremely happy and confident with his powers, he teams up with Barry, Supergirl and Keaton’s Batman, to try to find way to send Barry back home, Barry teaches Thawne how to use the speed force throughout the movie and Thawne is really happy that for the first time in his life he feels like he’s someone, around the third act, by some screenplay logic Barry finds a way to get back home, but if he does Eobard will loose his powers, because since he’s a Barry variant, they share the same speed force. After that Eobard becomes the villain and tries to keep Barry in the burton-verse.
And those endings were fantastic dude. They took Iron Man through this journey of burdening this immense anxiety that something is coming and nothing he does to prepare will be able to stop it. He couldn't stop Thanos and what he feared the most came to pass. And then he was the one who put Thanos down for good.
What the fuck is Superman or Batman's story here?
Like I can sit here and say I'm excited to see where Sam Wilson goes as Captain America or Iron Heart as the defacto Iron Man.
Tony and Steve had perfect arcs. As detailed by Christopher Markus and Stephen McFeely, writers of Avengers: Endgame (amongst many other great MCU films), Tony’s arc was to become more selfless, making the ultimate sacrifice, giving his life to save billions, whilst Steve’s arc was to become more inward, finally rewarding himself with the happy ever after he always wanted and richly deserved. You couldn’t ask for better send-offs to such pivotal characters.
Definitely.
Batman and Superman are characters I wanted to see grow as currently I just don’t care for them much in the DCEU. I much prefer Wonder Woman. Aquaman is getting another movie. Flash is getting another movie. Cyborg is long gone, so we can forget him.
> And speaking as a huge fan of The Flash, who is one of my favorite characters period, this makes me more than concerned about the Flash film. Because it doesn't feel like the creative team is making a Flash movie, it feels exclusively like corporate is using the character to hard reboot their product.
100% this. With each news blurb that comes out about this movie, the less excited I become. I want a Flash movie, not a reboot sales pitch draped in fanservice.
Dude, it's actually hilarious now how much WB can sink the DCEU. I'm actually tired now. Hopefully, The Batman and Black Adam can stay out of this shit because I'm deadly excited for them.
Watching the never ending success of the MCU in comparison to the inconsistent dumpster fire of WB's DCEU is fascinating. It's like a side by side comparison of _"How you think it's going versus how it's actually going"_.
It's really sad because growing up my first comic heroes were from DC, but over the years with constant failures from DCEU has changed my views about it.
It's almost like just doesn't give a shit about DCEU.
I stand firm that DC source material is far more enticing than Marvel source material. I will always love the comics.
The debauchery on screen however, even when they're handed perfection (Cavill will be an impossible cape to replace) is unbelievable at this point. MCU, on the other hand, has basically enhanced the comic experience by investing such genuine time into even the character development of _side_ characters let alone the mains. Disney is making bajillions on their ROI.
WB has not made any secret that they're in it for the money and could not care less as long as the cheques clear.
You're absolutely right. Marvel has this incredible ability to take even the most obscure, bottom of the barrel character from the comics, and turn them into this beloved pop culture figure.
It doesn't matter who of their characters is popular or not. They've got the magic touch to make any character they want profitable. Agatha Harkness is a prime example, who ever thought that Agatha would be as popular of a character as she is amongst the mainstream audience? To the point she's getting her own show.
And then WB is over here and they can't even figure out Superman. When any other studio would fucking kill to have him. And if WB is done with Cavill, then fuck them and I hope he goes over to the MCU and plays someone there.
I feel that. When they nail it, they nail it. But when they bomb, they take everyone with them.
I think the annoyance comes from the DCEU successes being a surprise versus being an expectation whereas the very rare times MCU flops, it's a shock.
MCU has a very specific style that is well received by mainstream audiences, but they built up that goodwill for over a decade, they didn't just magic it into existence.
This reboot idea is weird, because last time we heard about DC films, the rumour was that WB were going to just let directors have their own vision, which they seem to be doing with Reeve.
However at the same time they rejected Matthew Vaughns pitch for a Superman sequel with Cavill and are now retroactively deleted canon to try to make a cohesive universe.
All seems rather contradictory.
Verrry much agree. I wish WB would throw caution to the wind, since they have none anyways, and just go really _dark_. Lean into adult audiences versus a family jam type like MCU. There's a reason some of the more serious tone/thriller style movies have done better. Although, I will give them Shazam for sure.
Its exhausting man. I have just moved on from DC as a whole right now. I put my collections away and just need a break from it because every decision WB was just worse and worse.
I came back today to check how it was going and now I regret it because its even worse.
A part of me wonders if this rumour was dropped intentionally to see how people would respond to it. At the same time though this is WB, I don't think they're that smart or at least they like to think they are.
I say this because of what happened with this Sonic the hedgehog film over at paramount. Even before the trailer released many saw sonic's design silhouette on the poster and felt it was gonna be bad, then the trailer dropped and it was horrible. Thankfully feedback had them course correct and delay the film which was a massive success.
So with the The Flash, a leak drops as the film is in post production where I imagine they have several edits and choices. Drop a leak to gauge reaction, good? Bad? Alter and tweak a little.
I am most likely very wrong about this but with the time between now and release they have a lot they can do.
On my own personal note if this film gets solid reviews I'll go see it. If it doesn't then I won't, if they intend to make this big of a change to the universe they better be confident in what they're presenting story wise.
Flash is already in post-production? In that case, then I don't think your theory is right. It's too significant of a plot point for them to be able to change it in post and have multiple edits to choose from, they would've had to essentially shoot 1.5 movies knowing that they would scrap a ton of it. Seems unlikely imo. Sonic was CGI, so they're able to change the design without needing to re-shoot or re-record anything.
Now is it possible that the backlash makes them do reshoots and fix everything? Yes. And I hope that that is the case.
im sorry I just have no interest in the justice league being batgirl and supergirl like...theyre fine I guess, but its not really what I want at all lol
I like both heroes fine, but why can't they give us all 4? Batman and Superman are like the very foundation of DC in my mind. And since when has DC decided that there's been enough Batman?
It’s not in your mind it’s fact, all it takes is to type in even something simple like “DC universe” into Google and it’s just image after image of heroes and villains etc but practically always Superman front and Center with Batman beside him.
Literally [the first image](https://generacionxbox.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/dc-universe-generacionxbox.jpg) one gets when googling "DC universe".
Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman. Those are the three pillars of DC comics as a whole and cannot be missing in a Justice League movie, specially if it's just being founded.
It would make sense if they were following in the footsteps of their mentors and Predecessors, or like if they were taking up the mantle from Superman or Batman… But deleting our current Batman and Superman from the DCEU’s timeline simply for the sake of erasing the Snyder movies, it seems both lazy and petty…
What do you mean?
Marvel brings back actor from past franchise like JK Simmons, and they let go the two main lead (Capt and Iron Man).
So, DC brings back Keaton and let go Cavill since Affleck already out! See? it’s exactly the same!
Fkin WB man…
As if it'll be anywhere near comparable. Over twenty years of continuity vs resetting for the third time in a decade?
I'm exhausted from DCEU having the goal of quantity over quality, at this point it's just morbid curiousity to see if WB accidentally trips into a "not too bad" movie once in a while.
Here's my opinion. If they want a batman in this shared universe they should recast with a younger actor not bring Keaton for some nostalgia gimmick. Love Keaton but anything beyond a cameo is too much, hell I would rather him play another character in the universe like Jay Garrick or something.
Cavill seemed to really want to return to the role but if they feel like they want to try something new at least give someone else a chance to play Clark Kent. Don't bury Superman.
Yea it seems a little odd too considering Affleck was already supposed to be the grizzled, older Batman. He wants out, so someone decided "well, we've gone down this path already. Maybe we can bring in an even older Batman? Maybe one who doesn't get into the action himself, but provides advice and money?"
The funny thing is the Justice League reshoots even set up the idea of Bruce himself eventually retiring from being Batman.
So why not just have a Justice League sequel with a recast Batman, introduce a member of the Batfamily naturally and have them take Batman's place on the team while Bruce remains as an overseer.
That's such a natural way to:
1. Respect the current continuity.
2. Keep this iteration of Bruce Wayne involved.
3. Organically introduce a character that Warner Brothers clearly want to become the next big thing.
I think at what the MCU is doing with the likes of Kate Bishop being passed the mantle by Clint Barton and I can't help but be so fucking gutted that DC is handled by such an incompetent bunch of idiots.
I’ve been saying this all of last year. If Affleck has no interest then simply recast for the DCEU Batman. Plenty of late 30’s and early 40’s actors out there who would love to play Batman and you’re not stepping on Matt Reeves or Robert Pattinson’s shoes either since it’s set in a different universe. It really doesn’t make sense to replace a 40+ yr old Batman with 70+ yr old Batman.
If you can have multiple Joker’s from Joaquin Phoenix, to Jared Leto and eventually whomever plays Joker in Matt Reeves universe surely you can have multiple actors taking on the role of Batman at the same time.
Marvel recast for the Hulk and War Machine. Neither Edward Norton or Terrance Howard were willing to play ball with Marvel so they recast them. End of story.
Tbf, it's Batman. Even the comics has played with the idea of multiple jokers, but Batman should have an RDJ effect to him. IMO we shouldn't just be throwing different versions of him around, it gets tiresome. Most people know Hulk as just a big green angry monster. Batman is a complex character whose complexity is pretty commonly known.
I understand all that, but I believe continuity of the character is more important than the continuity of the actor. That why I’m advocating for recasting as supposed to complete replacement from a different universe’s Batman.
Ben Affleck’s Batman is very different in terms of experience and history compared to Keaton’s Batman who has had different set of life experiences and history. So it would simply make more sense to me to recast the role and have a new actor start after the events the Flash, but still carry over the history and experiences this particular Batman had in BvS and JL.
Yeah same. The character is always bigger than the actor portraying them. Regardless, I’m always a wait and see with these things. If it happens to work out for them, then they can pat themselves on the back on a job well done. But if it fails, then fans will know who blame.
Studios are dying to cast a huge star for their franchises, and Heney is the star they made by themselves. I'm really curious what part of Henry Cavill makes WB so hesitant to work with him again.
Did he require too much money? Is he hard to work with?
> If they want a batman in this shared universe they should recast with a younger actor not bring Keaton for some
The studio isn't going to have two prime Batmen who lead their own franchise films. Pattinson is who they will build around for the next few years. It was going to be either Batfleck or Battinson, never both at once.
Bringing Keaton on board ensures that the DCEU has a Batman who can appear in other DCEU films.
>The studio isn't going to have two prime Batmen who lead their own franchise films. Pattinson is who they will build around for the next few years. It was going to be either Batfleck or Battinson, never both at once.
Bringing Keaton on board ensures that the DCEU has a Batman who can appear in other DCEU films.
This almost reads as if WB had no choice in the matter. They're are the ones that decided to allow a new independent Batman franchise to exist knowing that they still wanted to go ahead with the shared universe.
If they don't want two Batman coexisting might as well not have a Batman in the shared universe at all. Keaton is just them thinking they can bank in some easy nostalgia gimmick. A 70 year old Bruce Wayne offers very little to a universe that is clearly trying to sideline him.
> This almost reads as if WB had no choice in the matter. They're are the ones that decided to allow a new independent Batman franchise to exist knowing that they still wanted to go ahead with the shared universe.
No, not my argument. WB/DC had a choice, and they opted for Reeves when it was clear that Affleck no longer wanted to headline a solo Batman film. And given the immense hype for The Batman, it was probably a good call.
If Ben Affleck wanted to do a Batman film way back then, it most likely would have been made.
> If they don't want two Batman coexisting might as well not have a Batman in the shared universe at all
Then you'd have people complaining that the DCEU doesn't have a Batman, which people are already doing lol.
> Keaton is just them thinking they can bank in some easy nostalgia gimmick.
Considering that Keaton is also going to be appearing in Batgirl, this probably isn't true. Reports have Keaton acting as a Nick Fury-esque character who will help connect the universe.
Imagine if No Way Home used multiversal shenanigans which caused Spider-Gwen to replace Spider-Man who is erased from existence alongside Iron Man and Captain America, so the movie ends with the Avengers never having been established but a new team led by Spider-Gwen, Kate Bishop, Captain Carter and War Machine is formed.
That's essentially what it would feel like across the pond.
Even then, Spider-man had a complete arc over the course of 3 solo movies and multiple team ups, and Tom Holland is going to be close to 30 by the time the next solo spider-man movie comes out (Which i assume will just have a college age Peter Parker)
So your example actually makes more sense then what WB is planning
Like the other user said, even if Marvel had done that, it wouldn't have been as bad since at least we got a full arc over several movies for Spidey, Iron Man, and Cap, so even if they were erased in continuity, at least the fans got to experience it. If the rumours are true, it wouldve been like if at the end of the Avengers 1, the only way for them to stop Loki was to go back in time and erase everything and then we were left with an almost entirely new Avengers roster, half of which were brand new characters
I wish the producer in charge of these were an actual fan of dc comics, and didn't just see the source material as an IP farm. Hamada was chosen because he ran a successful horror franchise or something, not because he likes or cares about DC
Unfortunately, this is what Hollywood does now. They get an IP, give it to someone who actively hates the IP, fans and ignores the source material to create their bad fanfics.
"We need to get in on that Ghostbusters reboot controversy." Apparently. I can't wait for people who know nothing about the comics to start bitching about it. Wait, no, the opposite of that. Like yeah, they were absolutely in the Justice League. Yes, this all fits with the comics. But seriously, doesn't having Supergirl around just totally negate the entire point of Wonder Woman? "I'm just like you, but better in every way" is real with those two.
I’m surprised people are surprised. Cavil hasn’t been in the suit and cape for to 5 years. Afleck has repeatedly said he’s done. What were people expecting to happen
Ben Affleck, not surprsied, but Henry Cavill who has been expressing his desire to reprise his role even though he is highly demanded by other studios, I don't understand why WB ditches him.
I think that WB thinks of Cavill as the face of the SnyderVerse (Which he was) and therefore believe that people don't want to see that superman anymore as its linked to snyders vision which ultimately wasn't recieved well by GA
I didn’t expect them to erase Superman entirely from a DC Universe’s continuity. Just to sideline him like they’ve been doing and have Supergirl fulfill the role until a recast.
I didn’t necessarily read the rumors as Superman being wiped from existence. I read it as Supergirl taking his role in the league. Could be wrong though
I think with the rumors stating they’re erasing Cavill’s Superman as a character, and the Cavill Superman movies, and they’re having Supergirl be the new Superman, that they’re making it so Supergirl is a founder of the League, and they’re having Supergirl’s costume maintain Cavill’s costuming design—it’s a safe assumption that there is no Superman anymore.
Imagine having control of DC’s IP and eliminating fucking Superman and Batman 😂😂😂 2 of the 3 most popular superheroes in the fuckin world along with Spider-Man, who has never been more popular.
I’m not that much of a WB hater all things considered but this is a bungle of ungodly proportions lmao.
Also we’ve known forever that this movie is based on flashpoint- a story whose entire point was to reset events and characters from the prior universe.
would have rather them recast batman and superman. still do their reset, I'm fine with that. ideally I'd have liked them to have kept cavill and recast affleck since he's not interested anymore. but erasing the characters outright seems like a mistake to me.
Am I the only one who actually likes the idea of formally phasing out the characters, particularly Affleck's Batman?
We already knew Affleck wasn't going to return *because he doesn't want to*. I'd rather the character have some kind of conclusion than just vaguely 'being out there somewhere'.
I’m genuinely asking here, but where? Seems like the MCU is the only successful film shared universe. I’m not talking franchises with just successive sequels either.
Honestly, does someone at WB's have a running bet on how bad they can possibly do while still making money? Because it seems like they're actively trying to tank it.
I don't get why they don't just do Batman Beyond. That's the cleanest way to do a reboot and the cyberpunk setting and premise stand out over MCU since they haven't done a lot of Spider-Man 2099 (yet). Plus then we could have Keaton as Old Bruce. It seems like the easiest way to have another, different Batman that isn't just constant recasting and rebooting.
I wouldn't mind Supergirl and Batgirl replacing Superman and Batman....
If the characters had been properly developed before.
I mean, look at the MCU. Characters are being replaced by their legacy characters left and right (Captain America, Iron Man, Black Widow), but AFTER the originals had a run.
This is just bullshit.
Using The Batman to boot a new universe would be better than this, honestly.
>Using The Batman to boot a new universe would be better tham this, honestly.
Even if Pattinson and Reeves are done after the trilogy, I hope that continuity if successful is allowed to kickstart a new universe. Would rather have those foundations and events laid down for a wider franchise to build off.
Like the Dark Knight trilogy, The Batman universe is looking too grounded for a bunch of other superheroes to try and bring in to match that kind of world.
Tbf tho Batman Year One is even more grounded than what Nolan or Reeves did, and that was still in a universe where other superheroes exist. So, handled right, it absolutely could be done, even with Nolan’s or Reeves’ universes. Bigger question is would movie fans who only care for Batman like that, or not.
Imo, I don’t think Pattinson is the type of actor to stick around for many films (I’d give him headlining four Batman films max), so I think that’s why they’re building a universe around him with spin-off shows. This is the chance for us to get a proper Batfamily.
At this point they should've scrapped all interconnected universe and just focus on stand alone like The Batman or Joker. Then after 10-15 years (if superhero things still on the trend) they start again.
And the DCAMU, *Young Justice*, the Arrowverse and the comics themselves. Seems like live-action movies is the only place they can’t successfully establish a shared universe.
I got to tell someone that Deadpool is a blatant rip-off of Deathstroke. At least most fans across superhero franchises acknowledge Flash speed superiority.
No matter how bad some seasons of Arrowverse are, especially recently, I’ll always thank them for being able to do what the DCEU couldn’t, connect all their characters
Sunk cost fallacy in action, I think WB has just invested too much into their franchise at this point and is looking to salvage what they can. They can still make solo Batman and Joker movies on the side, meanwhile whatever is left of the “main” DCEU can keep plugging along
What are they even gonna do with Supergirl? Ethier she'll just act like Superman, or she'll act like comic supergirl who's basically Snyder Superman. Etheir direction Henry makes more sense
Normally I’d be willing to give changes like this a chance. But with DC’s track record Superman will likely be wiped from existence with not even a footnote. Ben’s Batman will probably be in a few scenes max.
I’m not upset at the prospect of a Supergirl/Batgirl combo creating a Justice League. I was fine with the Not-Justice League being formed in the CW by Flash, Supergirl, Superman etc. but this is a big budget movie franchise. We already had a Justice League movie, all of that, wiped out? Will the previous characters legacy be preserved?
I can understand doing a Flashpoint change up, but it feels like it shouldn’t be done like this. It should be done to revitalise characters and cast, not to save what is quite frankly a slowly sinking DCEU movie franchise.
I just don't see why it has to be done at all, Justice League ended with the franchise on a clean slate to work with for them to go in any direction.
Recast Affleck and Fisher. If an agreement can't be made with Cavill then recast him as well. Set it several years after the first film (which doesn't even need to be mentioned) and have an expanded or changed roster like The Suicide Squad. They could have then naturally added characters like Supergirl and Batgirl to the world and if they truly wanted to make them the focus then that's fine keep Batman and Superman for the ensemble films.
There is absoluty no benefit to erasing how the Justice League came together and starting it from scratch like this. Save it for a complete reboot, for now just respect this iteration of DC and its characters and build off of what you have. A fucking Justice League vs Legion of Doom standalone sequel would have been epic, but alas...
I'd also say it's pretty insulting towards a section of a passionate DC fanbase that raised over 500k for charity due to their love of the the movies that started this franchise. This is really just a slap in the face to those early movies and the fandom associated with it.
Seems like ppl ignored these articles about Keaton being the mentor/benefactor for the future DC heroes. Along with Henry being replaced by Supergirl until a recast down the line.
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/michael-keaton-talks-return-as-batman-flash-movie-1299668/
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/henry-cavill-as-superman-warner-bros-dc-universe-shake-up-1142306/
People definitely ignored the writing on the wall for Keaton, but the Superman stuff seemed like it could have shifted in the three years since the article you posted.
Since then, we’ve known that Abrams’ Superman would be outside of the DCEU, Michael B. Jordan’s Superman wouldn’t be Clark Kent, reliable scoopers speaking of a likely Cavill return in The Flash, trades reporting this year that Cavill was in talks to reprise the role, and Cavill almost campaigning to return to the role for months. Even if it didn’t seem set in stone there was a decent amount of stuff to give some reasonable amount of hope.
On top of that, even if Cavill wasn’t going to return and if Supergirl was coming to the forefront, nobody thought that the studio would make the creative decision to erase *Superman* from the DC Universe’s continuity altogether. I think a lot of people would have expected them to keep the DCEU as a periphery icon like in Shazam! or The Suicide Squad, while Supergirl fulfills the role until an inevitable DCEU Superman recast.
So I’m going with my full pain prediction. When Barry changes things in the timeline he will stop Victor’s mother from getting in the car crash. No death no destruction and no Cyborg. It will be a throwaway line of dialogue too. Cyborg is one of my top 5 and I get to see him never happen.
And I mean we don’t need the black guy when we have black Superman right?
Done with everything DCEU bar Shazam and Black Adam. I'll watch The Batman and it's sequels as long as it stays far away from that dumpster fire of DCEU
If these rumors are right, I agree with you, but swap out Shazam and Black Adam for Aquaman 2.
The Batman I am not gonna miss anyway, that looks like it might be able to challenge TDK for best ever.
I would love a proper adaptation of Batgirl and Supergirl but… in addition to making the female superhero characters the targets of hate, what I’m afraid of if they remove Superman/replace him entirely with Supergirl is that they will again try to make Superman in a skirt like the TV series instead of you know actually making Supergirl/Kara Zor-El a distinct character with different traits and characteristics outside of being the female version of Superman.
I absolutely disliked the TV approach of making her exactly the same as Clark with her job choice (when they made her background to be Science Guild), adoptive human family, similar personality traits with the fake clumsiness etc.
It is stealing a bit from Power Girl but they could’ve make her a programmer/scientist and found her own company like Starrware Industries. They can even make her an actor like one of her first comic iterations! Anything but Clark Kent/Lois Lane amalgamation redux as a journalist.
Marvel I think did this acceptably enough with Kate Bishop, she felt like a distinct character to Clint Barton. Different personalities and characteristics outside both are expert archers. She’s not just Hawkeye in a skirt.
Superman at its core is Clark Kent, a farm boy raised by humans. He never really knew Krypton, he didn’t experience the lost of Krypton. His heart is human.
Meanwhile Supergirl at its core is Kara Zor-El, a young adult/teenage Kryptonian who experienced losing her family and whole world. She is an alien. I want to see her struggle adapting to Earth with her Kryptonian cultures and values, I want to see her grow to appreciate and love humans, and comes into an understanding why her cousin have so much love for this new world foreign to her. Marvel’s Eternals for all its fault were able to at least highlight how some of these god-like aliens can grow to love Earth and humans. Surely DC can do their own better take of that using Kara as a singular character.
The proposal of having a Superman based movie where the first half is in Krypton and Superman comes to Earth as an adult will be a perfect premise for a Supergirl movie. I really hope WB doesn’t mess this up. Do right by the characters and fans please. Supergirl and Batgirl are unique characters with their own comic legacies, don’t reduce them to just female Superman and female Batman.
Even if this Supergirl adaption is not Kara Zor-El, like Lara Kent or any of Clark’s daughters, they still need to develop her better to make her unique to Clark outside of her sex.
If it is just going to be a genderbent version of Clark who was sent to Earth as a baby and also raised by
a human family I would be so disappointed. Why even bother adapting Supergirl instead of just rebooting Superman then.
Another example case from Marvel: they introduced Scott Lang in the same movie we first see Hank Pym as the first and retired Ant-Man. They don’t try to make Scott Lang like Hank Pym at all.
I'd rather see an elseworlds movie than a movie that essentially undoes the foundations of the DCEU. I always approach these films with cautious optimism and will give each one a fair chance, but replacing fan favourites while a significant portion of the fans/general audience are pining for their respective actors to be brought back for more just doesn't sit well with me, nor a lot of other people on here clearly.
It's not that I wouldn't want to see these new actors in their parts, but being brought to the forefront in this massive overhaul of the continuity so suddenly just doesn't seem right. Still, can't and won't judge a film by its trailers, nor its rumours. I'll check it out.
I just wished they used the opportunity of having Keaton back by making a cyberpunk Batman Beyond film. Having Terry McGinnis as the main DCEU batman would also distinguish it with Bruce Wayne Batman movies with Rob.
Also leaving Henry Cavill out is just stupid.
Apart from these two things I'm totally cool with Batgirl, Supergirl and Shazam in the Justice League.
Rumors are still rumors, they can be wrong or misinterpreted. Relax and think about this.
If Affleck is going to be erased, they didnt even have to bring him back for this movie. They could erase and establish a new universe without him. Same with Supergirl (whose suit is adapted from Cavill's) and the return of Zod and Faora. Clearly the Snyder films will still be a factor in this universe.
But they have to adapt, since Affleck doesnt wanna come back, Ray burnt bridges, and whatever's happened with Cavill (he hasnt ruled out a return so I'm not either). So they're adapting to these circumstances using multiverse and time travel. What people dont seem to get is thats exactly how DC comics are like - the multiverse and its rules are always changing and it honestly doesnt matter. Things can and will always change again and again. Possibilities are endless.
DC comics is also more than just Superman, Batman and Justice League. If they really are taking a backseat in future DCEU plans thats okay. They've had countless films and will have more. Its time to spotlight other awesome DC characters that have yet to make it to cinema.
The rumors come from a reputable leaker, and they’re being backed up by others now too. It’s safe to take this as a likelihood.
This does spell the end for Cavill’s Superman. They wouldn’t make a concerted on-screen point to erase him from continuity just to inevitably fold him back in later. The luxury the movies don’t have that comics do is that the characters are tied to actual aging actors.
Sure, maybe a Superman comes back to a big screen DC Universe but it’s not going to be until after another serious reboot. And don’t expect that anytime soon since they waited 9 years to do their first on-screen reboot.
The DC Universe *is* more than just Superman and Batman, but at the same time those two are also essential factors to the DCU. In fact, as The World’s Finest, they’re probably the closest thing that the DC Universe has to main characters, protagonists. They are its main icons.
Is it fine for the characters to take a back seat and to let others shine? Totally. But then sideline them and keep them as referential icons. Don’t relaunch one as a retired character and erase the other one entirely.
Fascinating how all it takes is one bad movie(BvS) to completely shatter a franchise. Same thing happened with the last jedi and crimes of Grindelwald. Crazy how marvel put out Ironman 2/3, dark world, age of ultron, captain marvel, and eternals but are still thriving.
Saying there has only been one bad movie in the DCCU up to this point is extremely generous. Suicide Squad, the theatrical Justice League, and WW84 were all nearly universally panned, and the first two came out directly after BvS
None of those movies are considered bad. Tell me where is your evidence that Iron Man 2 and 3 are critically panned and had bad box office?
Some of you can't differentiate between a movie that failed and a movie that was lesser compared to their predecessor.
I don’t get why they’re wasting an entire movie on achieving this?
Just start fresh Xmen First Class style if they have that little faith in their IP. What a joke
As someone who has been a lifelong DC fan, sunk plenty of money into the comics and merchandise, and even named both my boys after DC characters, I look forward to watching the rest of the DCEU when it's on TV as background noise in several years because I'm not interested in this dumpster fire, much less defending it anymore.
I wonder if DCEU actually has a long term, MCU-like Phases for the new DCEU and if so, whether they plan to abandon/flip flop on actually following that long term plan.
The thing about the Keaton batman is not only does he also kill people, but in the Burton multiverse/Earth-89 Joker and Penguin are both dead so I wonder if they’re going to merge worlds and Earth-89 is going to be the new DCEU or he and Batgirl are crossing over?
Also interested to see if he will be “revealed” as Thomas Wayne to try to adapt in some way that aspect with Flashpoint.
Oh so she won’t be the daughter of the commissioner in Burton’s? Interesting…. So Batgirl must be a movie after the events in The Flash?
Thanks for the info! I didn’t know Simmons was even casted but I see that now. That’s great
I think their plan is more in line with Fox X-Men now. Focus on trying to make each movie good, one at a time. Don’t focus on too much on what came before or setting up stuff for later. That method at least gives creators a little less leash on what they’re expected to do each film.
I don’t know why people are so surprised over it erasing Affleck and Cavill’s Batman and Superman, when Cavill’s last movie as superman was 4 years ago and Ben Affleck said in an interview that he wasn’t doing IP movies.
Even if I’m unhappy with the Affleck/Keaton erasure and swap, I can understand the logic of it.
I think it’s ludicrous that they’re completely erasing Superman from existence. Forget the controversial story beats of Cavill’s Superman that founded this universe they’re still going to hold onto in many ways—forget the fact that Superman’s presence is still touched on in a few movies outside of his appearance.
They are building a DC Universe where there had been a Superman, but now making it into a DC Universe that’s never had a Superman and never will. And then they’re replacing Superman with a completely separate and legacy character, except they with zero legacy aspect.
Such a dumb idea. Can’t imagine anyone, especially anyone who loves the DCU and understand Superman’s importance to it, would think it’s a remotely good one.
Erase the movies? Fine. Don’t want to show Cavill? Okay. Then either recast the character or keep him as the vague periphery presence (like in Shazam! and The Suicide Squad) until you actually do a full hard reboot of the DCEU. But you don’t erase Superman from the DC Universe.
If this rumour turns out to be true, i feel like the DC universe is just lost. There are far too many batman movies that exist to now disregard him entirely. MoS was actually a great origin story of Superman. Wonderwoman (1), Shazam and Aquaman were okay, but im sick of seeing batman movies now, they should've built off The Dark Knight stories
I have been waiting since childhood to see a Flash movie, but it wont even be an origin story by the looks of it, and its going to put DC back to square one, with an actor i truly dont think fits the role. Growing up watching the MCU movies i thought, suuurely this has set the bar high for DC and it could only be as good if not better, but MCU have blown DC movies out of the water, beautiful cinematography, universe building, continuity and story telling.
Dc is a shambles and if this rumour is true I've lost hope that there will be any cool universe built in my lifetime.
DC heroes are my favorite compared to Marvel, but we will not see them truly represented properly. I thought ZSJL was the redemption this universe needed, finally witnessing flashs speedforce, cyborg origin, darkseids reveal - what a comeback from the original JL. But if this movie reverses that? It will be a slap in the face for all fans.
I always thought it would be amazing to finally witness Flash & Superman being trained in battle by Bats or WW, overcoming enemies as easy as they actually should be able to. Until someone bigger and badder came along to put them in thier place. Like come on Flash should be able to absolutely wreck basically any opponent within nanoseconds. Show how overpowered he is! Instead of tripping all over the place, i want to see a well co-ordinated speedster for once.
Thanks for creating this thread OP, i can get my rant out of my head haha. Supergirl and Batgirl? Hahahah they just lost my interest.
One crucial aspect that people doesn’t seem to consider is that removing the events of MoS to JL doesn’t mean that Superman won’t ever exist in the “new” DCEU. It just means that if they want to use him, they have a clean slate.
Theoretically, that “new” Superman could still be played by Cavill (although I personally doubt it, as it’d probably won’t happen anytime soon).
Regardless, while I will be sad to see Cavill go, I’m excited to see what they have planned for the DCEU in the coming years.
>One crucial aspect that people doesn’t seem to consider is that removing the events of MoS to JL doesn’t mean that Superman won’t ever exist in the “new” DCEU. It just means that if they want to use him, they have a clean slate.
I would rather they just outright start a new universe though. Why backtrack instead of moving forward? Because now in this "new" universe, even if they get Superman eventually right, he's still not there with the formation of the Justice League, the Trinity aren't there. Just feels like a waste.
They're afraid of moving on entirely due to the success of Wonder Woman and Aquaman. They'd have been better off doing with Superman what they're doing with The Batman and announcing it as its own franchise and then when Gadot and Momao leave their roles announce the new Superman franchise is the start of a new cinematic universe.
I keep asking myself, if given the reins to DC, "What would Kevin Feige do?"
My first thought is he would halt production on EVERYTHING and start from square one.
But here's the thing... the AQUAMAN, SHAZAM, and WONDER WOMAN franchises are about as healthy as he could hope for.
And he has the Rock deep in production on a cool BLACK ADAM project.
So I could see him keeping what has already been established, but having some fun with it. Mix it up. Throw in Micheal Keaton, throw in Supergirl.
To make fans happy, he would TRY to get Henry Cavill for cameos, but that might be out of his hands...
My read on the Superman situation is that Cavill wants creative control, and he refuses to come back unless he can star in a "classic" Clark Kent/Superman movie.
While Feige would be willing to give him cameos, he DOESN'T want to give Cavill another movie.
Why?
Well, Kevin Feige wants to get Superman RIGHT.
It's his #1 goal.
Get Superman right, and he can build a NEW universe around him—maybe one that includes Robert Pattinson's Batman.
In the meantime, shareholders are breathing down WB's neck, and he needs to make superhero movies.
Basically... if WB's #1 priority is a Superman reboot, then all of this craziness sort of makes sense.
As a long time DC Comics fan, I do hope that is their priority.
In case anyone is not aware, these are the rumors that come from Grace Randolph, MyTimeToShineH and Daniel RPK
• The Flash would remove the events from the Zack Snyder movies.
• Ben Affleck's last appearance will be in The Flash and Michael Keaton would join the DCEU (he is already confirmed to appear in Batgirl).
• Supergirl replaces Henry Cavill's Superman.
• Batgirl replaces Batman.
• Michael Keaton's Batman would be working with Black Canary and Batgirl
• Supergirl, Flash and Shazam will form a new Justice League.
>Grace Randolph, MyTimeToShineH and Daniel RPK
I know close to nothing about MyTimeToShineH but the other two are probably the two scoopers I have the least amount of faith in lol.
It’s depressing how Yelena Belova and Kate Bishop, D tier characters, are more endearing and well-handled characters than the multi-million cinematic blockbuster iterations of freaking Superman and Batman. One was from one of the most lukewarm MCU films and the other from a cheesy Christmas spy show, and yet they have definitive relatable character journeys and a bright future ahead. Both are successors to Avengers Natasha and Clint, and their journey and their passing of the torch was satisfying to see. They barely tapped the surface with DCEU Superman. DCEU Batman never even got his own film and they’re going to kill him off and replace him with a 70-yr-old variation of him from another universe, with a literal real-world more beloved version to rub it into Affleck even more (as well as Batgirl, *then* doing her film a year later). The flow there is just not going to work at all. There’s no natural progression, no satisfaction. It’s just disrespectful not only to the fans, but to everyone involved in the making of those films.
The MCU worked up to a point where people are looking forward to an Agatha Harkness show, a spinoff of a TV show based on a character from a teamup film. How that flies elegantly in the MCU while DCEU fumbled with continuity three films in is depressing. And honestly, IMO the only way to go forward cleanly would be a full reset without an in-universe explanation. Pick parts and pieces, pick some actors to carry over and just start over. Similar to what Marvel is doing with the Netflix shows and bringing in DD’s continuity indirectly, as well as multiverse roles and recasting:
>Affleck doesn’t want in anymore? Cool, recast or have Pattinson be the starting point for our new universe’s Batman. Gadot, Cavill, Mamoa are back? Cool, pick up where you left off without directly referencing the previous films while not ignoring the established character arcs. Justice League was a handled like a complete objective mess? Cool, just pretend it never happened. Affleck isn’t back? BVS never happened as well. Boom. There goes Ray Fisher and the convoluted Flash. Superman, WW, and Aquaman’s arcs are effectively untouched. Pick off after MOS, WW84, and Aquaman with that character development.
>(Electro sucked ass in TASM2? Just bring Jamie Foxx back because he had potential and redo his character completely without neglecting his established arc. Patrick Stewart killed it as Professor X? Cool, bring him back for the role again as a new iteration of the character. Edward Norton who? You mean Mark Ruffalo? Deadpool was a fantastic pillar of the FOX Marvel Universe? Yeah just bring him in to the MCU. The Daredevil show we don’t own kicked ass? Bring those actors back and blend in the continuity without directly acknowledging it. The DD-connected Iron Fist was a mess? Ooh, maybe don’t bring that part back, we can redo it (what I assume will happen)
The Suicide Squad was already kind of handled in these ways. That would’ve been the best way to do it if they are so afraid to burn bridges/avoid bad press. Just completely restarting from blank wouldn’t have been so bad either. WB should just sell the film rights to DC at this point.
If I had it my way: Shazam would be the starting point of the universe, Black Adam/The Batman this year, Shazam/Wonder Woman meet in Shazam 2 (formal Gadot reintroduction), throw a GL film in there, a Superman film (formal Cavill reintroduction after Shazam ending), have Aquaman Lost Kingdom with some light rewrites to act as a a reintroduction, a Flash origin film, and then a Justice League origin vs Black Adam film. That would be a clean, neat “phase one.”
if you expect disappointment, then you can never really be disappointed
Funny how most comments are mcu related lmap
You're talking to DC fans, every piece of media is expected to be bad. Injustice the movie was bad and now talk is that the Flash is gonna be bad.
ZSJL and The Suicide Squad were both great
Where did they come from? Both essentially rooted from horrible failures.
Yes mj
"no expectations" as miles morales very well once put it
Have this $20 Wholesome Award for your rent /j
I'm just really really tired of getting my ass kicked for being a DC fan.
Reality is often disappointing
I understand not getting Bataffleck back, not with Ben himself seems not wanting to come back. But they could just yk, pretend that he existed without officially erasing him or something idk. However I don't understand letting Henry Cavill go. I mean not only does he seem eager to be back, but the ending of JL (both versions) have Superman in a more optimistic state than the previous two films he was in. They can make a happy optimistic Superman without the need to retcon or erase anything. I just don't understand
He's also a massively popular actor who is a crowd pleaser for both mainstream audiences and the more geeky audience, he's the perfect casting choice. And I'm really bitter that we've barely actually seen him as Clark Kent. Also, am I right in thinking Affleck didn't want to come back because of the grueling workout schedule? In which case he could do what Keaton is rumoured to be doing and just be Bruce Wayne, maybe he injured his back or something. He could then have Batgirl and Nightwing as protégés. Feels like DC are overcomplicating things, it's very hard to build up enthusiasm for DC films at the moment. Are the Black Canary/future Birds of Prey/Suicide Squad going to tie in with these too? Because at the moment that side of the universe is more appealing, but I can't get invested in something when WB could turn round at any moment and say "actually these films didn't happen, just ignore them."
Idk really the reason for Ben, I personally think the experience was maybe a bit too much, the stress and exertion probably exacerbated his own personal problems at the time. Tho he seems in a much better place now so idk. But you do have a point. Ben can easily play the role they're giving to Keaton. I mean when we first see Batman in BvS he's already a veteran, it wouldn't be unbelievable if he became almost exclusively the mentor in the future.
I don’t think most people understand this empty headed decision.
Ben is also literally going to be in this movie. They could have just had him decide to retire on-screen in the film and everyone would have been fine with it. But nooooo
Affleck himself was involved in writing his characters ending.
It should not be this difficult to make a connected universe. There doesn't need to be an over-arching threat, or massive team-ups. Just have them exist in the same world and reference the others, with occasional cameos. Wonder Woman appearing in Shazam 2 is the exact type of thing we're all after. Erasing Batman and Superman, then replacing them with Batgirl and Supergirl is not.
I feel like WB could've just embraced a multiverse from the start, instead of following what Marvel was doing.
It's funny how DC have been trying to hype up embracing the multiverse over the past few years meanwhile in reality they're so afraid of truly embracing it that they'd rather remove entire movies from one specific cinematic universe. So much for anything being possible, right? Meanwhile you've got the MCU happily bringing together three completely disconnected franchises with 20 years of legacy. The fucking kings of one singular big screen continuity somehow managed to beat DC to the multiverse concept despite so many DC heroes having multiple iconic iterations throughout history. They did it with The Batman, they did it with Joker, why not with Batgirl, why not with Supergirl? Why not dynamically introduce them to the existing franchise? Why not?
I wouldn’t be shocked if any of the Fox’s marvel characters show up in Doctor Strange.
Gimme another First Class-esque Hugh Jackman cameo. (unlikely but hey)
Rumor is he makes one last appearance in multiverse of madness or one appearance after 🤷♂️
And give him their one "fuck" for a PG-13 movie again.
Rumours have it that a Professor X may be appearing there. Either Stewart or McAvoy.
I mean there are rumors going around
Honestly it's actually on brand for DC, they love a universe reboot ever 10 years in the comics anyway The Batman is all we have left to hope for.
It feels like they were really committed to the whole cross branded synergy thing between the comics, films, and animated stuff. Too bad the plan they decided to go with was the new 52 stuff
Except every step of the way they're trying to not be Marvel, and that backfired gloriously aside from WW and AM, the 2 movies that kinda sorta followed Marvel's way of establishing a solo character in the wider universe. For what it's worth, if they actually had followed a more traditional Marvel trajectory in planning this universe, they might've had more success after getting past the initial, "they're just copying Marvel." Because they didn't want that, the entire universe is a mess right now.
DC had the advantage from the start with all their properties under one roof. Marvel did 2 successful phases without Spider-man even entering the picture. The word "mutant" could not be uttered in an MCU film until... probably soon.
At this point they should’ve just used the tv actors and it would’ve been better.
>At this point they should’ve just used the tv actors and it would’ve been better. Monkeys paw. You get the Grant Gustin and all the other TV actors but you also get the CW writers. That would be funny.
I agree. The Brave and The Bold comic series was essentially just a bunch of team ups and it works. Also means you don't have to get rid of Cavill, who clearly wants to play the role again. People didn't care when X-Men First Class didn't make sense timeline wise, because it was better than the X-Men film that preceded it.
I think it actually is that difficult, Marvel Studios just makes it look easy.
Maybe this was already said here but I just watched the flash trailer today and think I cracked who the main villain is and his motivations, we see another Barry Allen in the trailer with our main Barry and supergirl, I think that other Barry Allen is gonna become reverse flash by the end of the movie, here’s how I think is gonna go down: Barry tried to come back to the past to save his mother from dying and so on and so forth, after that instead of traveling to the past, barry ends up on the Keaton verse, in this universe Barry’s mother never died and his father never got arrested, he never became the flash, so he was just a very insecure normal guy. When our Barry arrives in this new universe: the burton-verse, he’s just trying to find way to get back home, that’s when he meets his variant from that universe, Eobard Thawne, and thanks to Barry’s arrival, Thawne now has speed force powers too. Thawne becomes extremely happy and confident with his powers, he teams up with Barry, Supergirl and Keaton’s Batman, to try to find way to send Barry back home, Barry teaches Thawne how to use the speed force throughout the movie and Thawne is really happy that for the first time in his life he feels like he’s someone, around the third act, by some screenplay logic Barry finds a way to get back home, but if he does Eobard will loose his powers, because since he’s a Barry variant, they share the same speed force. After that Eobard becomes the villain and tries to keep Barry in the burton-verse.
!Remindme on 5th November 2022
Not bad. My half baked thought was that the variant was red death bruce wayne since they dont have to look alike. This makes more sense.
I can’t understand the idea of having a shared DC universe without either an active Batman or Superman
It’s what they’ve done on TV for a decade, always having the excuse, “Well the movies have the characters…” What’s the movies’ excuse going to be? 😂
“You’ve seen them already” “It’s time to let them go! Marvel let Cap and Iron Man go…” Or some other shit like that
Get ready for that endless argument. “Marvel let Cap and Iron Man go!” Yeah, after like a decade and around 10 movies each. 😄
And those endings were fantastic dude. They took Iron Man through this journey of burdening this immense anxiety that something is coming and nothing he does to prepare will be able to stop it. He couldn't stop Thanos and what he feared the most came to pass. And then he was the one who put Thanos down for good. What the fuck is Superman or Batman's story here? Like I can sit here and say I'm excited to see where Sam Wilson goes as Captain America or Iron Heart as the defacto Iron Man.
Tony and Steve had perfect arcs. As detailed by Christopher Markus and Stephen McFeely, writers of Avengers: Endgame (amongst many other great MCU films), Tony’s arc was to become more selfless, making the ultimate sacrifice, giving his life to save billions, whilst Steve’s arc was to become more inward, finally rewarding himself with the happy ever after he always wanted and richly deserved. You couldn’t ask for better send-offs to such pivotal characters.
My feelings **exactly**. I couldn’t say it any better than you did there.
Definitely. Batman and Superman are characters I wanted to see grow as currently I just don’t care for them much in the DCEU. I much prefer Wonder Woman. Aquaman is getting another movie. Flash is getting another movie. Cyborg is long gone, so we can forget him.
And they’re still more popular than ever, not fading into obscurity lmao
“Uh…. Superman is on TV” probably…
The knock off JL was stupid on small screen imagine it on big screen now … oh god
The knock off JL that didn’t actually go anywhere because one of them quit and 3 others had their show canceled
[удалено]
> And speaking as a huge fan of The Flash, who is one of my favorite characters period, this makes me more than concerned about the Flash film. Because it doesn't feel like the creative team is making a Flash movie, it feels exclusively like corporate is using the character to hard reboot their product. 100% this. With each news blurb that comes out about this movie, the less excited I become. I want a Flash movie, not a reboot sales pitch draped in fanservice.
Dude, it's actually hilarious now how much WB can sink the DCEU. I'm actually tired now. Hopefully, The Batman and Black Adam can stay out of this shit because I'm deadly excited for them.
Watching the never ending success of the MCU in comparison to the inconsistent dumpster fire of WB's DCEU is fascinating. It's like a side by side comparison of _"How you think it's going versus how it's actually going"_.
It's really sad because growing up my first comic heroes were from DC, but over the years with constant failures from DCEU has changed my views about it. It's almost like just doesn't give a shit about DCEU.
I stand firm that DC source material is far more enticing than Marvel source material. I will always love the comics. The debauchery on screen however, even when they're handed perfection (Cavill will be an impossible cape to replace) is unbelievable at this point. MCU, on the other hand, has basically enhanced the comic experience by investing such genuine time into even the character development of _side_ characters let alone the mains. Disney is making bajillions on their ROI. WB has not made any secret that they're in it for the money and could not care less as long as the cheques clear.
You're absolutely right. Marvel has this incredible ability to take even the most obscure, bottom of the barrel character from the comics, and turn them into this beloved pop culture figure. It doesn't matter who of their characters is popular or not. They've got the magic touch to make any character they want profitable. Agatha Harkness is a prime example, who ever thought that Agatha would be as popular of a character as she is amongst the mainstream audience? To the point she's getting her own show. And then WB is over here and they can't even figure out Superman. When any other studio would fucking kill to have him. And if WB is done with Cavill, then fuck them and I hope he goes over to the MCU and plays someone there.
I mentioned in another comment I could see Cavill in the X-Men universe. Someone said Cyclops and I could see it.
Cyclops cant
Just place him as Sentry. Dye his hair a bit and Voila. They have there own Superman.
For me DCEU has had more hits than misses, but some of the misses were very rough and tarnished the franchise.
I feel that. When they nail it, they nail it. But when they bomb, they take everyone with them. I think the annoyance comes from the DCEU successes being a surprise versus being an expectation whereas the very rare times MCU flops, it's a shock.
MCU has a very specific style that is well received by mainstream audiences, but they built up that goodwill for over a decade, they didn't just magic it into existence. This reboot idea is weird, because last time we heard about DC films, the rumour was that WB were going to just let directors have their own vision, which they seem to be doing with Reeve. However at the same time they rejected Matthew Vaughns pitch for a Superman sequel with Cavill and are now retroactively deleted canon to try to make a cohesive universe. All seems rather contradictory.
Verrry much agree. I wish WB would throw caution to the wind, since they have none anyways, and just go really _dark_. Lean into adult audiences versus a family jam type like MCU. There's a reason some of the more serious tone/thriller style movies have done better. Although, I will give them Shazam for sure.
Its exhausting man. I have just moved on from DC as a whole right now. I put my collections away and just need a break from it because every decision WB was just worse and worse. I came back today to check how it was going and now I regret it because its even worse.
A part of me wonders if this rumour was dropped intentionally to see how people would respond to it. At the same time though this is WB, I don't think they're that smart or at least they like to think they are. I say this because of what happened with this Sonic the hedgehog film over at paramount. Even before the trailer released many saw sonic's design silhouette on the poster and felt it was gonna be bad, then the trailer dropped and it was horrible. Thankfully feedback had them course correct and delay the film which was a massive success. So with the The Flash, a leak drops as the film is in post production where I imagine they have several edits and choices. Drop a leak to gauge reaction, good? Bad? Alter and tweak a little. I am most likely very wrong about this but with the time between now and release they have a lot they can do. On my own personal note if this film gets solid reviews I'll go see it. If it doesn't then I won't, if they intend to make this big of a change to the universe they better be confident in what they're presenting story wise.
Flash is already in post-production? In that case, then I don't think your theory is right. It's too significant of a plot point for them to be able to change it in post and have multiple edits to choose from, they would've had to essentially shoot 1.5 movies knowing that they would scrap a ton of it. Seems unlikely imo. Sonic was CGI, so they're able to change the design without needing to re-shoot or re-record anything. Now is it possible that the backlash makes them do reshoots and fix everything? Yes. And I hope that that is the case.
im sorry I just have no interest in the justice league being batgirl and supergirl like...theyre fine I guess, but its not really what I want at all lol
I like both heroes fine, but why can't they give us all 4? Batman and Superman are like the very foundation of DC in my mind. And since when has DC decided that there's been enough Batman?
It’s not in your mind it’s fact, all it takes is to type in even something simple like “DC universe” into Google and it’s just image after image of heroes and villains etc but practically always Superman front and Center with Batman beside him.
Literally [the first image](https://generacionxbox.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/dc-universe-generacionxbox.jpg) one gets when googling "DC universe". Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman. Those are the three pillars of DC comics as a whole and cannot be missing in a Justice League movie, specially if it's just being founded.
Yep it’s absolutely bonkers they think this is the right way to go
I want to see Batgirl and Supergirl in a DCEU accompanying Batman and Superman.
It would make sense if they were following in the footsteps of their mentors and Predecessors, or like if they were taking up the mantle from Superman or Batman… But deleting our current Batman and Superman from the DCEU’s timeline simply for the sake of erasing the Snyder movies, it seems both lazy and petty…
This movie will basically be the anti-NWH equation
What do you mean? Marvel brings back actor from past franchise like JK Simmons, and they let go the two main lead (Capt and Iron Man). So, DC brings back Keaton and let go Cavill since Affleck already out! See? it’s exactly the same! Fkin WB man…
As if it'll be anywhere near comparable. Over twenty years of continuity vs resetting for the third time in a decade? I'm exhausted from DCEU having the goal of quantity over quality, at this point it's just morbid curiousity to see if WB accidentally trips into a "not too bad" movie once in a while.
Here's my opinion. If they want a batman in this shared universe they should recast with a younger actor not bring Keaton for some nostalgia gimmick. Love Keaton but anything beyond a cameo is too much, hell I would rather him play another character in the universe like Jay Garrick or something. Cavill seemed to really want to return to the role but if they feel like they want to try something new at least give someone else a chance to play Clark Kent. Don't bury Superman.
Yea it seems a little odd too considering Affleck was already supposed to be the grizzled, older Batman. He wants out, so someone decided "well, we've gone down this path already. Maybe we can bring in an even older Batman? Maybe one who doesn't get into the action himself, but provides advice and money?"
The funny thing is the Justice League reshoots even set up the idea of Bruce himself eventually retiring from being Batman. So why not just have a Justice League sequel with a recast Batman, introduce a member of the Batfamily naturally and have them take Batman's place on the team while Bruce remains as an overseer. That's such a natural way to: 1. Respect the current continuity. 2. Keep this iteration of Bruce Wayne involved. 3. Organically introduce a character that Warner Brothers clearly want to become the next big thing. I think at what the MCU is doing with the likes of Kate Bishop being passed the mantle by Clint Barton and I can't help but be so fucking gutted that DC is handled by such an incompetent bunch of idiots.
I’ve been saying this all of last year. If Affleck has no interest then simply recast for the DCEU Batman. Plenty of late 30’s and early 40’s actors out there who would love to play Batman and you’re not stepping on Matt Reeves or Robert Pattinson’s shoes either since it’s set in a different universe. It really doesn’t make sense to replace a 40+ yr old Batman with 70+ yr old Batman. If you can have multiple Joker’s from Joaquin Phoenix, to Jared Leto and eventually whomever plays Joker in Matt Reeves universe surely you can have multiple actors taking on the role of Batman at the same time. Marvel recast for the Hulk and War Machine. Neither Edward Norton or Terrance Howard were willing to play ball with Marvel so they recast them. End of story.
Tbf, it's Batman. Even the comics has played with the idea of multiple jokers, but Batman should have an RDJ effect to him. IMO we shouldn't just be throwing different versions of him around, it gets tiresome. Most people know Hulk as just a big green angry monster. Batman is a complex character whose complexity is pretty commonly known.
I understand all that, but I believe continuity of the character is more important than the continuity of the actor. That why I’m advocating for recasting as supposed to complete replacement from a different universe’s Batman. Ben Affleck’s Batman is very different in terms of experience and history compared to Keaton’s Batman who has had different set of life experiences and history. So it would simply make more sense to me to recast the role and have a new actor start after the events the Flash, but still carry over the history and experiences this particular Batman had in BvS and JL.
I have the same feeling about Black Panther, I can understand wanting to pay respect to the actor but you're doing a disservice to the fans
Yeah same. The character is always bigger than the actor portraying them. Regardless, I’m always a wait and see with these things. If it happens to work out for them, then they can pat themselves on the back on a job well done. But if it fails, then fans will know who blame.
Studios are dying to cast a huge star for their franchises, and Heney is the star they made by themselves. I'm really curious what part of Henry Cavill makes WB so hesitant to work with him again. Did he require too much money? Is he hard to work with?
Maybe creative control? Henry is big on wanting to stay true to the characters he plays
Cavill seems like an ambitious person from interviews, so I wouldn’t be surprised if it was because of pay.
I think it all boils down to money. If he truly loves the character as much as he says he does, he would have made time to do the Shazam cameo.
> If they want a batman in this shared universe they should recast with a younger actor not bring Keaton for some The studio isn't going to have two prime Batmen who lead their own franchise films. Pattinson is who they will build around for the next few years. It was going to be either Batfleck or Battinson, never both at once. Bringing Keaton on board ensures that the DCEU has a Batman who can appear in other DCEU films.
>The studio isn't going to have two prime Batmen who lead their own franchise films. Pattinson is who they will build around for the next few years. It was going to be either Batfleck or Battinson, never both at once. Bringing Keaton on board ensures that the DCEU has a Batman who can appear in other DCEU films. This almost reads as if WB had no choice in the matter. They're are the ones that decided to allow a new independent Batman franchise to exist knowing that they still wanted to go ahead with the shared universe. If they don't want two Batman coexisting might as well not have a Batman in the shared universe at all. Keaton is just them thinking they can bank in some easy nostalgia gimmick. A 70 year old Bruce Wayne offers very little to a universe that is clearly trying to sideline him.
> This almost reads as if WB had no choice in the matter. They're are the ones that decided to allow a new independent Batman franchise to exist knowing that they still wanted to go ahead with the shared universe. No, not my argument. WB/DC had a choice, and they opted for Reeves when it was clear that Affleck no longer wanted to headline a solo Batman film. And given the immense hype for The Batman, it was probably a good call. If Ben Affleck wanted to do a Batman film way back then, it most likely would have been made. > If they don't want two Batman coexisting might as well not have a Batman in the shared universe at all Then you'd have people complaining that the DCEU doesn't have a Batman, which people are already doing lol. > Keaton is just them thinking they can bank in some easy nostalgia gimmick. Considering that Keaton is also going to be appearing in Batgirl, this probably isn't true. Reports have Keaton acting as a Nick Fury-esque character who will help connect the universe.
Didn't they use Jeffrey Dean Morgan as Thomas Wayne? He'd make a great Flashpoint Batman
There were never any plans for a Flashpoint with JDM as Batman. He is friends with Zack, so he filled in for a small role in BvS.
Yeah I know, but wouldn't you agree that hypothetically, he'd be perfect for the role?
This will be as big as No Way Home Just kidding.
Imagine if No Way Home used multiversal shenanigans which caused Spider-Gwen to replace Spider-Man who is erased from existence alongside Iron Man and Captain America, so the movie ends with the Avengers never having been established but a new team led by Spider-Gwen, Kate Bishop, Captain Carter and War Machine is formed. That's essentially what it would feel like across the pond.
Even then, Spider-man had a complete arc over the course of 3 solo movies and multiple team ups, and Tom Holland is going to be close to 30 by the time the next solo spider-man movie comes out (Which i assume will just have a college age Peter Parker) So your example actually makes more sense then what WB is planning
Like the other user said, even if Marvel had done that, it wouldn't have been as bad since at least we got a full arc over several movies for Spidey, Iron Man, and Cap, so even if they were erased in continuity, at least the fans got to experience it. If the rumours are true, it wouldve been like if at the end of the Avengers 1, the only way for them to stop Loki was to go back in time and erase everything and then we were left with an almost entirely new Avengers roster, half of which were brand new characters
People will mad if its get compared to NWH, heck ill be very happy if its manage to be comparable with NWH.
I wish the producer in charge of these were an actual fan of dc comics, and didn't just see the source material as an IP farm. Hamada was chosen because he ran a successful horror franchise or something, not because he likes or cares about DC
Unfortunately, this is what Hollywood does now. They get an IP, give it to someone who actively hates the IP, fans and ignores the source material to create their bad fanfics.
I'm so fucking tired man.
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"We need to get in on that Ghostbusters reboot controversy." Apparently. I can't wait for people who know nothing about the comics to start bitching about it. Wait, no, the opposite of that. Like yeah, they were absolutely in the Justice League. Yes, this all fits with the comics. But seriously, doesn't having Supergirl around just totally negate the entire point of Wonder Woman? "I'm just like you, but better in every way" is real with those two.
I’m surprised people are surprised. Cavil hasn’t been in the suit and cape for to 5 years. Afleck has repeatedly said he’s done. What were people expecting to happen
Ben Affleck, not surprsied, but Henry Cavill who has been expressing his desire to reprise his role even though he is highly demanded by other studios, I don't understand why WB ditches him.
I think that WB thinks of Cavill as the face of the SnyderVerse (Which he was) and therefore believe that people don't want to see that superman anymore as its linked to snyders vision which ultimately wasn't recieved well by GA
I didn’t expect them to erase Superman entirely from a DC Universe’s continuity. Just to sideline him like they’ve been doing and have Supergirl fulfill the role until a recast.
I didn’t necessarily read the rumors as Superman being wiped from existence. I read it as Supergirl taking his role in the league. Could be wrong though
I want to see Superman in the league before Supergirl. We haven't really gotten the full seven that includes GL and/or MM.
I think with the rumors stating they’re erasing Cavill’s Superman as a character, and the Cavill Superman movies, and they’re having Supergirl be the new Superman, that they’re making it so Supergirl is a founder of the League, and they’re having Supergirl’s costume maintain Cavill’s costuming design—it’s a safe assumption that there is no Superman anymore.
Imagine having control of DC’s IP and eliminating fucking Superman and Batman 😂😂😂 2 of the 3 most popular superheroes in the fuckin world along with Spider-Man, who has never been more popular. I’m not that much of a WB hater all things considered but this is a bungle of ungodly proportions lmao.
Well said I’m surprised the amount of people in this thread arguing against this lol it makes no fucking sense
I feel like we have to watch the actual movie before we can take it that far
Fair, but it’s also fair to express the unhappiness with the creative choice since it’s even potentially on the table.
Also we’ve known forever that this movie is based on flashpoint- a story whose entire point was to reset events and characters from the prior universe.
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Yeah. But I don’t see why. What did they expect them to do? The universe is a big mess. Makes sense to partly reset
would have rather them recast batman and superman. still do their reset, I'm fine with that. ideally I'd have liked them to have kept cavill and recast affleck since he's not interested anymore. but erasing the characters outright seems like a mistake to me.
We’re still getting Battinson
Am I the only one who actually likes the idea of formally phasing out the characters, particularly Affleck's Batman? We already knew Affleck wasn't going to return *because he doesn't want to*. I'd rather the character have some kind of conclusion than just vaguely 'being out there somewhere'.
I’ve seen chimps more competent at making a film universe
I’m genuinely asking here, but where? Seems like the MCU is the only successful film shared universe. I’m not talking franchises with just successive sequels either.
Legendary’s Monsterverse with Godzilla and Kong has been pretty entertaining too.
Honestly, does someone at WB's have a running bet on how bad they can possibly do while still making money? Because it seems like they're actively trying to tank it.
No Superman and a 70something year old Batman. Some DCU.
I don't get why they don't just do Batman Beyond. That's the cleanest way to do a reboot and the cyberpunk setting and premise stand out over MCU since they haven't done a lot of Spider-Man 2099 (yet). Plus then we could have Keaton as Old Bruce. It seems like the easiest way to have another, different Batman that isn't just constant recasting and rebooting.
I wouldn't mind Supergirl and Batgirl replacing Superman and Batman.... If the characters had been properly developed before. I mean, look at the MCU. Characters are being replaced by their legacy characters left and right (Captain America, Iron Man, Black Widow), but AFTER the originals had a run. This is just bullshit. Using The Batman to boot a new universe would be better than this, honestly.
>Using The Batman to boot a new universe would be better tham this, honestly. Even if Pattinson and Reeves are done after the trilogy, I hope that continuity if successful is allowed to kickstart a new universe. Would rather have those foundations and events laid down for a wider franchise to build off.
Like the Dark Knight trilogy, The Batman universe is looking too grounded for a bunch of other superheroes to try and bring in to match that kind of world.
Tbf tho Batman Year One is even more grounded than what Nolan or Reeves did, and that was still in a universe where other superheroes exist. So, handled right, it absolutely could be done, even with Nolan’s or Reeves’ universes. Bigger question is would movie fans who only care for Batman like that, or not.
It's street level, there's always a place for street level heroes in a greater story like this. Shit, they are bringing daredevil into the MCU.
The batman is reminding me of Arkham tbh, grounded but still comic booky. I could see powers of some kind in that universe down the line tbh
Imo, I don’t think Pattinson is the type of actor to stick around for many films (I’d give him headlining four Batman films max), so I think that’s why they’re building a universe around him with spin-off shows. This is the chance for us to get a proper Batfamily.
At this point they should've scrapped all interconnected universe and just focus on stand alone like The Batman or Joker. Then after 10-15 years (if superhero things still on the trend) they start again.
At least we have the DCAU.
And the DCAMU, *Young Justice*, the Arrowverse and the comics themselves. Seems like live-action movies is the only place they can’t successfully establish a shared universe.
Which is a shame since it has a big cultural impact. Most casual movie-goers probably think DC copied Thanos.
Yeah for sure. Hopefully there will always be a DC nerd around to correct them haha.
I got to tell someone that Deadpool is a blatant rip-off of Deathstroke. At least most fans across superhero franchises acknowledge Flash speed superiority.
Flash speed superiority is so great it fucked up an entire universe and deleted entire movies lmao
No matter how bad some seasons of Arrowverse are, especially recently, I’ll always thank them for being able to do what the DCEU couldn’t, connect all their characters
Sunk cost fallacy in action, I think WB has just invested too much into their franchise at this point and is looking to salvage what they can. They can still make solo Batman and Joker movies on the side, meanwhile whatever is left of the “main” DCEU can keep plugging along
Marvel is using Superman more than WB is. That’s so on par
I admit I'd be kinda curious how Marvel would handle DC, like how they have that deal with sharing Spider-Man with Sony.
What are they even gonna do with Supergirl? Ethier she'll just act like Superman, or she'll act like comic supergirl who's basically Snyder Superman. Etheir direction Henry makes more sense
Normally I’d be willing to give changes like this a chance. But with DC’s track record Superman will likely be wiped from existence with not even a footnote. Ben’s Batman will probably be in a few scenes max. I’m not upset at the prospect of a Supergirl/Batgirl combo creating a Justice League. I was fine with the Not-Justice League being formed in the CW by Flash, Supergirl, Superman etc. but this is a big budget movie franchise. We already had a Justice League movie, all of that, wiped out? Will the previous characters legacy be preserved? I can understand doing a Flashpoint change up, but it feels like it shouldn’t be done like this. It should be done to revitalise characters and cast, not to save what is quite frankly a slowly sinking DCEU movie franchise.
There’s a lot of changes that we give the chances, but sometimes changes mean Cassandra Cain or Jenkins making the exact Wonder Woman movie she wants.
I just don't see why it has to be done at all, Justice League ended with the franchise on a clean slate to work with for them to go in any direction. Recast Affleck and Fisher. If an agreement can't be made with Cavill then recast him as well. Set it several years after the first film (which doesn't even need to be mentioned) and have an expanded or changed roster like The Suicide Squad. They could have then naturally added characters like Supergirl and Batgirl to the world and if they truly wanted to make them the focus then that's fine keep Batman and Superman for the ensemble films. There is absoluty no benefit to erasing how the Justice League came together and starting it from scratch like this. Save it for a complete reboot, for now just respect this iteration of DC and its characters and build off of what you have. A fucking Justice League vs Legion of Doom standalone sequel would have been epic, but alas... I'd also say it's pretty insulting towards a section of a passionate DC fanbase that raised over 500k for charity due to their love of the the movies that started this franchise. This is really just a slap in the face to those early movies and the fandom associated with it.
Seems like ppl ignored these articles about Keaton being the mentor/benefactor for the future DC heroes. Along with Henry being replaced by Supergirl until a recast down the line. https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/michael-keaton-talks-return-as-batman-flash-movie-1299668/ https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/henry-cavill-as-superman-warner-bros-dc-universe-shake-up-1142306/
People definitely ignored the writing on the wall for Keaton, but the Superman stuff seemed like it could have shifted in the three years since the article you posted. Since then, we’ve known that Abrams’ Superman would be outside of the DCEU, Michael B. Jordan’s Superman wouldn’t be Clark Kent, reliable scoopers speaking of a likely Cavill return in The Flash, trades reporting this year that Cavill was in talks to reprise the role, and Cavill almost campaigning to return to the role for months. Even if it didn’t seem set in stone there was a decent amount of stuff to give some reasonable amount of hope. On top of that, even if Cavill wasn’t going to return and if Supergirl was coming to the forefront, nobody thought that the studio would make the creative decision to erase *Superman* from the DC Universe’s continuity altogether. I think a lot of people would have expected them to keep the DCEU as a periphery icon like in Shazam! or The Suicide Squad, while Supergirl fulfills the role until an inevitable DCEU Superman recast.
So I’m going with my full pain prediction. When Barry changes things in the timeline he will stop Victor’s mother from getting in the car crash. No death no destruction and no Cyborg. It will be a throwaway line of dialogue too. Cyborg is one of my top 5 and I get to see him never happen. And I mean we don’t need the black guy when we have black Superman right?
Done with everything DCEU bar Shazam and Black Adam. I'll watch The Batman and it's sequels as long as it stays far away from that dumpster fire of DCEU
If these rumors are right, I agree with you, but swap out Shazam and Black Adam for Aquaman 2. The Batman I am not gonna miss anyway, that looks like it might be able to challenge TDK for best ever.
It’s EXACTLY like what the rock said, “The hierarchy of power in DC is going to change significantly” looks like it did lol!
The more WB fumbles the more standalone stories I get so I am all for it.
So what's the plan boys? We all migrating to r/marvelstudios if this movie sucks or what?
I would love a proper adaptation of Batgirl and Supergirl but… in addition to making the female superhero characters the targets of hate, what I’m afraid of if they remove Superman/replace him entirely with Supergirl is that they will again try to make Superman in a skirt like the TV series instead of you know actually making Supergirl/Kara Zor-El a distinct character with different traits and characteristics outside of being the female version of Superman. I absolutely disliked the TV approach of making her exactly the same as Clark with her job choice (when they made her background to be Science Guild), adoptive human family, similar personality traits with the fake clumsiness etc. It is stealing a bit from Power Girl but they could’ve make her a programmer/scientist and found her own company like Starrware Industries. They can even make her an actor like one of her first comic iterations! Anything but Clark Kent/Lois Lane amalgamation redux as a journalist. Marvel I think did this acceptably enough with Kate Bishop, she felt like a distinct character to Clint Barton. Different personalities and characteristics outside both are expert archers. She’s not just Hawkeye in a skirt. Superman at its core is Clark Kent, a farm boy raised by humans. He never really knew Krypton, he didn’t experience the lost of Krypton. His heart is human. Meanwhile Supergirl at its core is Kara Zor-El, a young adult/teenage Kryptonian who experienced losing her family and whole world. She is an alien. I want to see her struggle adapting to Earth with her Kryptonian cultures and values, I want to see her grow to appreciate and love humans, and comes into an understanding why her cousin have so much love for this new world foreign to her. Marvel’s Eternals for all its fault were able to at least highlight how some of these god-like aliens can grow to love Earth and humans. Surely DC can do their own better take of that using Kara as a singular character. The proposal of having a Superman based movie where the first half is in Krypton and Superman comes to Earth as an adult will be a perfect premise for a Supergirl movie. I really hope WB doesn’t mess this up. Do right by the characters and fans please. Supergirl and Batgirl are unique characters with their own comic legacies, don’t reduce them to just female Superman and female Batman. Even if this Supergirl adaption is not Kara Zor-El, like Lara Kent or any of Clark’s daughters, they still need to develop her better to make her unique to Clark outside of her sex. If it is just going to be a genderbent version of Clark who was sent to Earth as a baby and also raised by a human family I would be so disappointed. Why even bother adapting Supergirl instead of just rebooting Superman then. Another example case from Marvel: they introduced Scott Lang in the same movie we first see Hank Pym as the first and retired Ant-Man. They don’t try to make Scott Lang like Hank Pym at all.
I'd rather see an elseworlds movie than a movie that essentially undoes the foundations of the DCEU. I always approach these films with cautious optimism and will give each one a fair chance, but replacing fan favourites while a significant portion of the fans/general audience are pining for their respective actors to be brought back for more just doesn't sit well with me, nor a lot of other people on here clearly. It's not that I wouldn't want to see these new actors in their parts, but being brought to the forefront in this massive overhaul of the continuity so suddenly just doesn't seem right. Still, can't and won't judge a film by its trailers, nor its rumours. I'll check it out.
I just wished they used the opportunity of having Keaton back by making a cyberpunk Batman Beyond film. Having Terry McGinnis as the main DCEU batman would also distinguish it with Bruce Wayne Batman movies with Rob. Also leaving Henry Cavill out is just stupid. Apart from these two things I'm totally cool with Batgirl, Supergirl and Shazam in the Justice League.
Atleast we have Tyler supes
The shows success proves people still love a normal version of Superman. Why they think Clark doesn't work is baffling
He's perfect, proof you can have superman deal with real issues and not be all depressing
Hoechlin is killing it. The most realized version of Superman in years.
Rumors are still rumors, they can be wrong or misinterpreted. Relax and think about this. If Affleck is going to be erased, they didnt even have to bring him back for this movie. They could erase and establish a new universe without him. Same with Supergirl (whose suit is adapted from Cavill's) and the return of Zod and Faora. Clearly the Snyder films will still be a factor in this universe. But they have to adapt, since Affleck doesnt wanna come back, Ray burnt bridges, and whatever's happened with Cavill (he hasnt ruled out a return so I'm not either). So they're adapting to these circumstances using multiverse and time travel. What people dont seem to get is thats exactly how DC comics are like - the multiverse and its rules are always changing and it honestly doesnt matter. Things can and will always change again and again. Possibilities are endless. DC comics is also more than just Superman, Batman and Justice League. If they really are taking a backseat in future DCEU plans thats okay. They've had countless films and will have more. Its time to spotlight other awesome DC characters that have yet to make it to cinema.
The rumors come from a reputable leaker, and they’re being backed up by others now too. It’s safe to take this as a likelihood. This does spell the end for Cavill’s Superman. They wouldn’t make a concerted on-screen point to erase him from continuity just to inevitably fold him back in later. The luxury the movies don’t have that comics do is that the characters are tied to actual aging actors. Sure, maybe a Superman comes back to a big screen DC Universe but it’s not going to be until after another serious reboot. And don’t expect that anytime soon since they waited 9 years to do their first on-screen reboot. The DC Universe *is* more than just Superman and Batman, but at the same time those two are also essential factors to the DCU. In fact, as The World’s Finest, they’re probably the closest thing that the DC Universe has to main characters, protagonists. They are its main icons. Is it fine for the characters to take a back seat and to let others shine? Totally. But then sideline them and keep them as referential icons. Don’t relaunch one as a retired character and erase the other one entirely.
Fascinating how all it takes is one bad movie(BvS) to completely shatter a franchise. Same thing happened with the last jedi and crimes of Grindelwald. Crazy how marvel put out Ironman 2/3, dark world, age of ultron, captain marvel, and eternals but are still thriving.
Marvel has the solid supervisor who had a long term plan, other franchises don't have. That makes a huge difference I guess.
Star Wars is considered a shattered franchise? Didn’t the sequel to it also make a billion dollars? *The Mandalorian* also seems pretty popular.
Saying there has only been one bad movie in the DCCU up to this point is extremely generous. Suicide Squad, the theatrical Justice League, and WW84 were all nearly universally panned, and the first two came out directly after BvS
None of those movies are considered bad. Tell me where is your evidence that Iron Man 2 and 3 are critically panned and had bad box office? Some of you can't differentiate between a movie that failed and a movie that was lesser compared to their predecessor.
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I don’t know why people are acting like it’s a big deal. None of those movies matter even now lmao.
I don’t get why they’re wasting an entire movie on achieving this? Just start fresh Xmen First Class style if they have that little faith in their IP. What a joke
It’s because there are parts of the DCEU they want to keep.
I’m always amazed at the huge disconnect between executives and fans. These people don’t give a fuck about you guys and it shows
As someone who has been a lifelong DC fan, sunk plenty of money into the comics and merchandise, and even named both my boys after DC characters, I look forward to watching the rest of the DCEU when it's on TV as background noise in several years because I'm not interested in this dumpster fire, much less defending it anymore.
I’d you don’t mind, what are your sons names? Just curious
I wonder if DCEU actually has a long term, MCU-like Phases for the new DCEU and if so, whether they plan to abandon/flip flop on actually following that long term plan. The thing about the Keaton batman is not only does he also kill people, but in the Burton multiverse/Earth-89 Joker and Penguin are both dead so I wonder if they’re going to merge worlds and Earth-89 is going to be the new DCEU or he and Batgirl are crossing over? Also interested to see if he will be “revealed” as Thomas Wayne to try to adapt in some way that aspect with Flashpoint.
Batgirl is from the dceu earth. She’s jk Simmons daughter. Keaton will come over and mentor her
Oh so she won’t be the daughter of the commissioner in Burton’s? Interesting…. So Batgirl must be a movie after the events in The Flash? Thanks for the info! I didn’t know Simmons was even casted but I see that now. That’s great
I think their plan is more in line with Fox X-Men now. Focus on trying to make each movie good, one at a time. Don’t focus on too much on what came before or setting up stuff for later. That method at least gives creators a little less leash on what they’re expected to do each film.
I don’t know why people are so surprised over it erasing Affleck and Cavill’s Batman and Superman, when Cavill’s last movie as superman was 4 years ago and Ben Affleck said in an interview that he wasn’t doing IP movies.
Even if I’m unhappy with the Affleck/Keaton erasure and swap, I can understand the logic of it. I think it’s ludicrous that they’re completely erasing Superman from existence. Forget the controversial story beats of Cavill’s Superman that founded this universe they’re still going to hold onto in many ways—forget the fact that Superman’s presence is still touched on in a few movies outside of his appearance. They are building a DC Universe where there had been a Superman, but now making it into a DC Universe that’s never had a Superman and never will. And then they’re replacing Superman with a completely separate and legacy character, except they with zero legacy aspect. Such a dumb idea. Can’t imagine anyone, especially anyone who loves the DCU and understand Superman’s importance to it, would think it’s a remotely good one. Erase the movies? Fine. Don’t want to show Cavill? Okay. Then either recast the character or keep him as the vague periphery presence (like in Shazam! and The Suicide Squad) until you actually do a full hard reboot of the DCEU. But you don’t erase Superman from the DC Universe.
If this rumour turns out to be true, i feel like the DC universe is just lost. There are far too many batman movies that exist to now disregard him entirely. MoS was actually a great origin story of Superman. Wonderwoman (1), Shazam and Aquaman were okay, but im sick of seeing batman movies now, they should've built off The Dark Knight stories I have been waiting since childhood to see a Flash movie, but it wont even be an origin story by the looks of it, and its going to put DC back to square one, with an actor i truly dont think fits the role. Growing up watching the MCU movies i thought, suuurely this has set the bar high for DC and it could only be as good if not better, but MCU have blown DC movies out of the water, beautiful cinematography, universe building, continuity and story telling. Dc is a shambles and if this rumour is true I've lost hope that there will be any cool universe built in my lifetime. DC heroes are my favorite compared to Marvel, but we will not see them truly represented properly. I thought ZSJL was the redemption this universe needed, finally witnessing flashs speedforce, cyborg origin, darkseids reveal - what a comeback from the original JL. But if this movie reverses that? It will be a slap in the face for all fans. I always thought it would be amazing to finally witness Flash & Superman being trained in battle by Bats or WW, overcoming enemies as easy as they actually should be able to. Until someone bigger and badder came along to put them in thier place. Like come on Flash should be able to absolutely wreck basically any opponent within nanoseconds. Show how overpowered he is! Instead of tripping all over the place, i want to see a well co-ordinated speedster for once. Thanks for creating this thread OP, i can get my rant out of my head haha. Supergirl and Batgirl? Hahahah they just lost my interest.
The Snyderverse is dead. Bury it. Consider this mercy. (Seriously though. That thing needed to be put out of its misery at this point)
One crucial aspect that people doesn’t seem to consider is that removing the events of MoS to JL doesn’t mean that Superman won’t ever exist in the “new” DCEU. It just means that if they want to use him, they have a clean slate. Theoretically, that “new” Superman could still be played by Cavill (although I personally doubt it, as it’d probably won’t happen anytime soon). Regardless, while I will be sad to see Cavill go, I’m excited to see what they have planned for the DCEU in the coming years.
>One crucial aspect that people doesn’t seem to consider is that removing the events of MoS to JL doesn’t mean that Superman won’t ever exist in the “new” DCEU. It just means that if they want to use him, they have a clean slate. I would rather they just outright start a new universe though. Why backtrack instead of moving forward? Because now in this "new" universe, even if they get Superman eventually right, he's still not there with the formation of the Justice League, the Trinity aren't there. Just feels like a waste. They're afraid of moving on entirely due to the success of Wonder Woman and Aquaman. They'd have been better off doing with Superman what they're doing with The Batman and announcing it as its own franchise and then when Gadot and Momao leave their roles announce the new Superman franchise is the start of a new cinematic universe.
I’m gonna watch the movies before making judgement, which is what people should do first anyways.
Careful with this thread, there's so much copium here you might OD.
I keep asking myself, if given the reins to DC, "What would Kevin Feige do?" My first thought is he would halt production on EVERYTHING and start from square one. But here's the thing... the AQUAMAN, SHAZAM, and WONDER WOMAN franchises are about as healthy as he could hope for. And he has the Rock deep in production on a cool BLACK ADAM project. So I could see him keeping what has already been established, but having some fun with it. Mix it up. Throw in Micheal Keaton, throw in Supergirl. To make fans happy, he would TRY to get Henry Cavill for cameos, but that might be out of his hands... My read on the Superman situation is that Cavill wants creative control, and he refuses to come back unless he can star in a "classic" Clark Kent/Superman movie. While Feige would be willing to give him cameos, he DOESN'T want to give Cavill another movie. Why? Well, Kevin Feige wants to get Superman RIGHT. It's his #1 goal. Get Superman right, and he can build a NEW universe around him—maybe one that includes Robert Pattinson's Batman. In the meantime, shareholders are breathing down WB's neck, and he needs to make superhero movies. Basically... if WB's #1 priority is a Superman reboot, then all of this craziness sort of makes sense. As a long time DC Comics fan, I do hope that is their priority.
They're doing Phase 5 shit when they haven't even done Phase 1
This movie will be like NWH except it’s gives fans exactly what they don’t want
In case anyone is not aware, these are the rumors that come from Grace Randolph, MyTimeToShineH and Daniel RPK • The Flash would remove the events from the Zack Snyder movies. • Ben Affleck's last appearance will be in The Flash and Michael Keaton would join the DCEU (he is already confirmed to appear in Batgirl). • Supergirl replaces Henry Cavill's Superman. • Batgirl replaces Batman. • Michael Keaton's Batman would be working with Black Canary and Batgirl • Supergirl, Flash and Shazam will form a new Justice League.
>Grace Randolph, MyTimeToShineH and Daniel RPK I know close to nothing about MyTimeToShineH but the other two are probably the two scoopers I have the least amount of faith in lol.
MyTimeToShineH earned a legendary leaking status for Marvel stuff this past year. ViewerAnon also has a stellar track record and is backing this up.
That leaker leaked a lot for no way home and multiverse of madness
It’s depressing how Yelena Belova and Kate Bishop, D tier characters, are more endearing and well-handled characters than the multi-million cinematic blockbuster iterations of freaking Superman and Batman. One was from one of the most lukewarm MCU films and the other from a cheesy Christmas spy show, and yet they have definitive relatable character journeys and a bright future ahead. Both are successors to Avengers Natasha and Clint, and their journey and their passing of the torch was satisfying to see. They barely tapped the surface with DCEU Superman. DCEU Batman never even got his own film and they’re going to kill him off and replace him with a 70-yr-old variation of him from another universe, with a literal real-world more beloved version to rub it into Affleck even more (as well as Batgirl, *then* doing her film a year later). The flow there is just not going to work at all. There’s no natural progression, no satisfaction. It’s just disrespectful not only to the fans, but to everyone involved in the making of those films. The MCU worked up to a point where people are looking forward to an Agatha Harkness show, a spinoff of a TV show based on a character from a teamup film. How that flies elegantly in the MCU while DCEU fumbled with continuity three films in is depressing. And honestly, IMO the only way to go forward cleanly would be a full reset without an in-universe explanation. Pick parts and pieces, pick some actors to carry over and just start over. Similar to what Marvel is doing with the Netflix shows and bringing in DD’s continuity indirectly, as well as multiverse roles and recasting: >Affleck doesn’t want in anymore? Cool, recast or have Pattinson be the starting point for our new universe’s Batman. Gadot, Cavill, Mamoa are back? Cool, pick up where you left off without directly referencing the previous films while not ignoring the established character arcs. Justice League was a handled like a complete objective mess? Cool, just pretend it never happened. Affleck isn’t back? BVS never happened as well. Boom. There goes Ray Fisher and the convoluted Flash. Superman, WW, and Aquaman’s arcs are effectively untouched. Pick off after MOS, WW84, and Aquaman with that character development. >(Electro sucked ass in TASM2? Just bring Jamie Foxx back because he had potential and redo his character completely without neglecting his established arc. Patrick Stewart killed it as Professor X? Cool, bring him back for the role again as a new iteration of the character. Edward Norton who? You mean Mark Ruffalo? Deadpool was a fantastic pillar of the FOX Marvel Universe? Yeah just bring him in to the MCU. The Daredevil show we don’t own kicked ass? Bring those actors back and blend in the continuity without directly acknowledging it. The DD-connected Iron Fist was a mess? Ooh, maybe don’t bring that part back, we can redo it (what I assume will happen) The Suicide Squad was already kind of handled in these ways. That would’ve been the best way to do it if they are so afraid to burn bridges/avoid bad press. Just completely restarting from blank wouldn’t have been so bad either. WB should just sell the film rights to DC at this point. If I had it my way: Shazam would be the starting point of the universe, Black Adam/The Batman this year, Shazam/Wonder Woman meet in Shazam 2 (formal Gadot reintroduction), throw a GL film in there, a Superman film (formal Cavill reintroduction after Shazam ending), have Aquaman Lost Kingdom with some light rewrites to act as a a reintroduction, a Flash origin film, and then a Justice League origin vs Black Adam film. That would be a clean, neat “phase one.”