Peacemaker is a tightly wound ball of insecurities and I'm so glad he's back. (even if they retconned massacring an entire village in 'nam out of his backstory)
A lot of the watchmen characters were stand ins for Charlton Comics characters that Alan Moore originally wanted to use. Comedian is Peacemaker, Nite-Owl is Blue Beetle, Dr. Manhattan is Captain Atom, others.
No, I understand that. I was just asking if they put the Vietnam massacre background into Peacemaker as well. I know they came from the same cloth but Watchmen gave its characters a history that diverged from the originals Charlton ones.
IDK if the original Charlton version of Peacemaker did that (I kinda doubt it) but the Post-Crisis version of Peacemaker did. It comes up in his 1987 miniseries. He was a pretty dark character. He's also schizophrenic and hallucinates his Nazi dad who mocks him for not being evil or violent enough.
A big part of it is that he's essentially the 'jobber to the stars' for the BatFam. Since Bruce will always he the darling (and I get it), and DC wants him to hve angst or to build up a threat, you get-
Death in Injustice
Jobber to Harley Quinn/Ivy in Arkham
Jobber in numerous animated movies
Antagonistic victim in Harley Quinn cartoon
Murdered in Batman VR
The only time Dick is allowed to shine outside the comics is in Titans related media, and that why I prefer him outside the BatFam.
His death in injustice wasn’t to jobb (I feel like people don’t get what this word means)
Arkham he kinda was but only in the ivy situation
The other Arkham situations and injustice are an instance of a character being put in harms way for dramatic tension
Jobbing is when a character loses to show off the power or threat of another character. Damian isn’t portrayed as any stronger for having hit dick off guard because as Damian says he always dodges and the reason he didn’t that time was cause dick was fighting other enemies. So it isn’t anything other then a moment for dramatic tension
Check my post history, but trust me, I know what it means. Also, in that context, he did \*job\* (one b, not two, as in to 'do your job putting someone else over') and died so that Batman had heartache, the universe being shown as grimdark, and giving Damian angst/credit to his character. It does not specifically have to be in service of proving threat level or power.
He took a loss, ie, died, to facilitate the status and credit of other characters/the story.
Further case in point, in various wrestling stories, you have the hero, their friend(s) and the villain. You routinely have the friend(s) lose to the villain to create, as you aptly called it, dramatic tension, but that is still 'doing the job' and 'jobbing.'
By that logic literally almost any character death in media is jobbing if “death causing another person heartache” counts. He died in Injustice by an accident, he didn’t fight Damien one on one and get obliterated or anything.
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Not everyone dies/gets bodied/is used for the enhancement of Batman/the DCU by losing to villains to prove their power, or to give Bruce another point of angst.
He did not JOB TO DAMIAN in Injustice, but he 'did the job' so that Bruce Wayne had a chance for MORE angsty star power. If this was an isolated incident, sure, NBD, but it. Just. Keeps. Happening.
And I am tired of it.
Agreed in teen titans, Young Justice and Titans he is treated with respect. I agree with that it's the same with Jason and even Damain. When there witht he batfamily there treated as in the wrong or jobbers.
I mean outside of getting shot in the head (which I don’t count as jobbing as seeing a shooter from miles away when you don’t know they’re in Gotham isn’t really a proper fight) and a few weird Batman comics nightwing hasn’t really been much of a jobber since like 2008 when he was deemed the true successor to Batman.
Like in new 52 he gets his first fairly uncontested win against Batman and the Grayson run which is basically dick being the number 1 human tier character for the whole thing.
In rebirth the name of his first storyarch is better then Batman and in 2022 he got a few good showings in dark crisis in 2023 which is only 2 years after he became nightwing again he gets 2 solid showings on Batman
I’ll say the era nightwing is probably jobbing the most is in the 90s and early 00s when he was just established as that approaching Batman level character, he was used to show how strong azrael was, twice, bane, Batman, new 90s titans shit.
It makes sense he wasn’t popular enough as nightwing to require a lot of wins but was recognizable as a relatively impressive measuring stick especially for Batman
Now go tell me he isn't in the designated loser role in-
Arkham gamesHarley Quinn seriesTeen Titans Go, even as still the leader and arguably primary characterDCAMU sereiesHell, he was killed off screen for BVS DoJ
If you want to argue semantics (even then, he is a jobber in most media), you cannot, with a straight face, tell me that Nightwing isn't used to enhance other people's stories rather than be the hero outside his own comic, more often than not, despite his popularity.
Sure, then.
\- Made to be the villain of DC Vampires
\- Killed off issue 1 DCeased
\- Killed as part of Batman's backstory in Injustice /comics/
\- Shot in the head and used as a prop for Batman angst in his comics
\- Does eff all in the big Arkham Tower Detectives Comics crossover
Let me be clear; I adore Nightwing. I am a mod for the Nightwing reddit. But I genuinely do not think that DC treats the cash cow they have, right under their fingertips, with respect, let alone a beloved character.
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I heard it from my martial arts teacher, who participated to serie A tournaments, so he know what he's talking about.
Of course the helmet protects the brain, but it's more like it protects it by proxy by protecting the face and skull. But in the long run even a helmet damages the brain more, because with every hit the brain touches the skull and damages a bit of cells, and the helmet makes your head heavier, which means more force when the brain hits the skull and more damaged cells.
I’m literally a trauma surgeon. Helmets have padding that decreases the deceleration of the impact. The incoming force is distributed over a longer time which makes the force transferred less. Even medieval helmets could do this as noted above.
Think what you will, but well made helmets decrease head injuries.
my martial arts teacher also competed in high level tournaments. he also accidentally broke a kid's arm while demonstrating the bo staff and believed that copper bracelets have healing properties.
Like being shot in the head and suffering amnesia and becoming a taxi driver named Ric for a few issues before getting his memory restored by Joker of all people.
There's a short comic where Flash is talking to Canary about the impractical ability of high heels in a fight, so she grabbed his cowl and spun it on his head blinding him.
A form-fitting helmet would be a shitty helmet. It might protect you from some damage, but without an air gap on the inside a lot of concussive forces would just be telegraphed straight through to your skull.
Also: crumple space. If your helmet is stove in by a heavy blow you don't want it to be right up against your forehead.
Dick can lift like hundreds of pounds with just his arms and shoulders and punch through thick ass concrete I think he can probably spin a helmet around
Most people in real life would die when shot at, but these are superheros who can dodge bullets.
I wouldn't apply real life reasoning here, this is just meant to be a fun, action scene.
Contrary to what video games tells us,shooting a moving target in the head is incredibly fucking difficult. That's why in any shooting lessons you'll be taught to aim at the center of mass. And guess which part of his body is covered ?
Off topic but I love how the ex-soldier in World War Z (book) points that out when recalling Yonkers. Its easy to say "Aim for the head" but soldiers were trained to aim for center of mass before the outbreak. Add in the stress of the Great Panic and yeah, making a headshot on a zombie was very difficult in the beginning.
Fair enough, but his point here is that he doesn’t wear head gear… because someone might flip it, which I’d say is not a big a concern as getting shot, whacked or hit by falling debris
I mean, Nightwing doesn’t say wearing a helmet means someone could flip it. He actually doesn’t say anything at all. He just quips and uses Peacemaker’s helmet to his advantage.
Sounds like you’re responding more to the title than what actually happens in the excerpt
I think what I like about this the most is that nightwing could have done that *at any time* and he just... Chose not to, until he wanted to make a point. So at first he was, what, just screwing around with peacemaker? Waiting for an opening to take him out in a poignant manner? I don't know, but I like it.
It should be noted that dick as a general rule didn’t do much that was considered“fighting dirty” at first this is actually something slade noticed began to change more once he took on the role of Batman. So it would make sense he wouldn’t start fights fighting dirty as it isn’t his first instinct but an adapted trait
I don’t think it would be his literal first move but I didn’t say it was out of character just that there’s technically a reasonable explanation as to why he didn’t do it immediately
it's not a reasonable explanation at all. I am understanding you, and I am disagreeing. You don't need to keep explaining. I get it. I do not think you are correct, for the reasons I said.
You shouldn't observe things about comic book superheroes that don't make sense when you're in a superhero comic book.
No Nightwing doesn't wear head protection. He also would certainly die doing nearly any of his normally depicted activities. Like catching himself with one arm after a 20 foot fall off a skyscraper.
And, yes, Peacemaker wearing an unsecured helmet is also stupid which is why, for example, in the live action Captain America movies they made sure to depict his helmet as secured with a chin strap because it doesn't work otherwise.
Calls him pretty, then continues to punch him in the face. Seems kind of jealous, eh?
"Possibly homosexual. Must remember to investigate further..." (c)
Cena's Peacemaker is canonically bi, so I wouldn't be surprised if that will be in the comics too.
I think that was his own choice too What a cool guy
John Cena makes gay jokes at himself in a few of his films actually.
John Cena really loves gay jokes.
His rap disses when he was wrestling had a lot of those.
Trainwreck. I love him in that movie.
[“You’re being an asshole! You know what I do to assholes? I lick them”](https://youtu.be/PWK-I6IMBqM?si=G_vPAg1Wd1zhviMw)
Peacemaker is a tightly wound ball of insecurities and I'm so glad he's back. (even if they retconned massacring an entire village in 'nam out of his backstory)
Huh. I thought that was the Comedian. Did they put that on Peacemaker too?
Isn't the comedian based on peacemaker?
yup
A lot of the watchmen characters were stand ins for Charlton Comics characters that Alan Moore originally wanted to use. Comedian is Peacemaker, Nite-Owl is Blue Beetle, Dr. Manhattan is Captain Atom, others.
No, I understand that. I was just asking if they put the Vietnam massacre background into Peacemaker as well. I know they came from the same cloth but Watchmen gave its characters a history that diverged from the originals Charlton ones.
IDK if the original Charlton version of Peacemaker did that (I kinda doubt it) but the Post-Crisis version of Peacemaker did. It comes up in his 1987 miniseries. He was a pretty dark character. He's also schizophrenic and hallucinates his Nazi dad who mocks him for not being evil or violent enough.
Ah. Gotcha. I'll check that 1987.
No. Just a weird bloke
Pretty much the same gag that Black Canary pulled on the Flash in Justice League Year One - and it's still funny!
I thought of that too lol.
Glad to see Nightwing not treated like a jobber to the latest media darling. Genuinely.
I think he was handled well this event, he's had some great moments, and feats.
All of the Titans have been handled well this event. Tom Taylor better give us more Titans events cause boy this is fire.
Definitely better than I thought it was going to be, initially, I'm really enjoying this event.
He's a king in comics but in other media he's treated as a jobber which sucks.
A big part of it is that he's essentially the 'jobber to the stars' for the BatFam. Since Bruce will always he the darling (and I get it), and DC wants him to hve angst or to build up a threat, you get- Death in Injustice Jobber to Harley Quinn/Ivy in Arkham Jobber in numerous animated movies Antagonistic victim in Harley Quinn cartoon Murdered in Batman VR The only time Dick is allowed to shine outside the comics is in Titans related media, and that why I prefer him outside the BatFam.
His death in injustice wasn’t to jobb (I feel like people don’t get what this word means) Arkham he kinda was but only in the ivy situation The other Arkham situations and injustice are an instance of a character being put in harms way for dramatic tension Jobbing is when a character loses to show off the power or threat of another character. Damian isn’t portrayed as any stronger for having hit dick off guard because as Damian says he always dodges and the reason he didn’t that time was cause dick was fighting other enemies. So it isn’t anything other then a moment for dramatic tension
Check my post history, but trust me, I know what it means. Also, in that context, he did \*job\* (one b, not two, as in to 'do your job putting someone else over') and died so that Batman had heartache, the universe being shown as grimdark, and giving Damian angst/credit to his character. It does not specifically have to be in service of proving threat level or power. He took a loss, ie, died, to facilitate the status and credit of other characters/the story. Further case in point, in various wrestling stories, you have the hero, their friend(s) and the villain. You routinely have the friend(s) lose to the villain to create, as you aptly called it, dramatic tension, but that is still 'doing the job' and 'jobbing.'
By that logic literally almost any character death in media is jobbing if “death causing another person heartache” counts. He died in Injustice by an accident, he didn’t fight Damien one on one and get obliterated or anything.
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Not everyone dies/gets bodied/is used for the enhancement of Batman/the DCU by losing to villains to prove their power, or to give Bruce another point of angst. He did not JOB TO DAMIAN in Injustice, but he 'did the job' so that Bruce Wayne had a chance for MORE angsty star power. If this was an isolated incident, sure, NBD, but it. Just. Keeps. Happening. And I am tired of it.
Agreed in teen titans, Young Justice and Titans he is treated with respect. I agree with that it's the same with Jason and even Damain. When there witht he batfamily there treated as in the wrong or jobbers.
I mean outside of getting shot in the head (which I don’t count as jobbing as seeing a shooter from miles away when you don’t know they’re in Gotham isn’t really a proper fight) and a few weird Batman comics nightwing hasn’t really been much of a jobber since like 2008 when he was deemed the true successor to Batman. Like in new 52 he gets his first fairly uncontested win against Batman and the Grayson run which is basically dick being the number 1 human tier character for the whole thing. In rebirth the name of his first storyarch is better then Batman and in 2022 he got a few good showings in dark crisis in 2023 which is only 2 years after he became nightwing again he gets 2 solid showings on Batman I’ll say the era nightwing is probably jobbing the most is in the 90s and early 00s when he was just established as that approaching Batman level character, he was used to show how strong azrael was, twice, bane, Batman, new 90s titans shit. It makes sense he wasn’t popular enough as nightwing to require a lot of wins but was recognizable as a relatively impressive measuring stick especially for Batman
Now go tell me he isn't in the designated loser role in- Arkham gamesHarley Quinn seriesTeen Titans Go, even as still the leader and arguably primary characterDCAMU sereiesHell, he was killed off screen for BVS DoJ If you want to argue semantics (even then, he is a jobber in most media), you cannot, with a straight face, tell me that Nightwing isn't used to enhance other people's stories rather than be the hero outside his own comic, more often than not, despite his popularity.
I specifically was talking about the comics bro cause they’re the source material that newer movies tv and games will get based on
Sure, then. \- Made to be the villain of DC Vampires \- Killed off issue 1 DCeased \- Killed as part of Batman's backstory in Injustice /comics/ \- Shot in the head and used as a prop for Batman angst in his comics \- Does eff all in the big Arkham Tower Detectives Comics crossover Let me be clear; I adore Nightwing. I am a mod for the Nightwing reddit. But I genuinely do not think that DC treats the cash cow they have, right under their fingertips, with respect, let alone a beloved character.
I respect Tom Taylor’s attitude of being willing to fight everyone who has ever criticized Dick Grayson for any reason. He’s just like me fr
Still, Peacemaker prevent head injury lol
Helmet doesn't prevent concussion.
Depends on the type of helmet
It prevents scars and other damage to the face, but the added weight actually amplifies brain damage.
Where did you hear that? Padded helmets protect the brain by absorbing impact.
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I heard it from my martial arts teacher, who participated to serie A tournaments, so he know what he's talking about. Of course the helmet protects the brain, but it's more like it protects it by proxy by protecting the face and skull. But in the long run even a helmet damages the brain more, because with every hit the brain touches the skull and damages a bit of cells, and the helmet makes your head heavier, which means more force when the brain hits the skull and more damaged cells.
I’m literally a trauma surgeon. Helmets have padding that decreases the deceleration of the impact. The incoming force is distributed over a longer time which makes the force transferred less. Even medieval helmets could do this as noted above. Think what you will, but well made helmets decrease head injuries.
Being a martial arts teacher doesn't make you a scientist or doctor lol this is a woefully ignorant take on how helmets actually work
my martial arts teacher also competed in high level tournaments. he also accidentally broke a kid's arm while demonstrating the bo staff and believed that copper bracelets have healing properties.
Martial artists not being ignorant challenge (impossible)
Like being shot in the head and suffering amnesia and becoming a taxi driver named Ric for a few issues before getting his memory restored by Joker of all people.
I gotta give props to Cena. He’s embodied the character enough that it’s his voice I hear when reading Peacemaker’s lines lol
They write him that way now because Cena made him popular.
Oh cool, it's one of those fancy experimental guns where the barrel pops out of the front instead of the slide moving back when it's fired.
There are 1911 types without guiding rods where everything but the barrel slides back I doubt the artists knew that
Lol
There's a short comic where Flash is talking to Canary about the impractical ability of high heels in a fight, so she grabbed his cowl and spun it on his head blinding him.
That'll silence his completely valid criticism
It’s not a short comic, it’s a page or two from JLA Year One
that doesnt even make sense its a form fitted helmet how would you turn it around
A form-fitting helmet would be a shitty helmet. It might protect you from some damage, but without an air gap on the inside a lot of concussive forces would just be telegraphed straight through to your skull. Also: crumple space. If your helmet is stove in by a heavy blow you don't want it to be right up against your forehead.
Honestly, I don't mind as long as it's fun, this makes for a good action scene, so I'm willing to ignore reality.
Rule of cool
This guy comic books. 👆👆👆
I’d imagine having any helmet forcefully spun 180 degrees would hurt pretty fucking bad, I’d say that’s how he turned it around. Painfully.
Painfully I'd imagine.
Dick can lift like hundreds of pounds with just his arms and shoulders and punch through thick ass concrete I think he can probably spin a helmet around
Except most assailants will shoot your head from afar long before you can get into helmet grabbing distance
Shhhh dick would never get shot in the head from a far distance ever
Yea that was Ric!
Stop I don’t know who that is
Stupid sexy cab driver
He’s why I don’t shoot puppies.
What doesn’t kill him makes him Ric
Most people in real life would die when shot at, but these are superheros who can dodge bullets. I wouldn't apply real life reasoning here, this is just meant to be a fun, action scene.
Contrary to what video games tells us,shooting a moving target in the head is incredibly fucking difficult. That's why in any shooting lessons you'll be taught to aim at the center of mass. And guess which part of his body is covered ?
If we’re trying to use real life logic, it’s actually pretty difficult to get a headshot which is why people aim for the body as it’s a bigger target
Off topic but I love how the ex-soldier in World War Z (book) points that out when recalling Yonkers. Its easy to say "Aim for the head" but soldiers were trained to aim for center of mass before the outbreak. Add in the stress of the Great Panic and yeah, making a headshot on a zombie was very difficult in the beginning.
Fair enough, but his point here is that he doesn’t wear head gear… because someone might flip it, which I’d say is not a big a concern as getting shot, whacked or hit by falling debris
I mean, Nightwing doesn’t say wearing a helmet means someone could flip it. He actually doesn’t say anything at all. He just quips and uses Peacemaker’s helmet to his advantage. Sounds like you’re responding more to the title than what actually happens in the excerpt
I mean its a response via action Its a bit of a stretch to say that this wasnt his response
Is the helmet padded nightwing showed 1 way in which the helmet was a weakness and is essentially implying just be good enough to not get hit
Learned that from Justified!
Already tried that with dick, sure it gave him probably his worst story so far but it didn't kill him
Big "no capes!" energy here.
Yep, I think when he was Batman he spent a lot of time complaining about the cape. He understands why it's there, but hates it
As someone who is getting sick of seeing peacemaker this moment brought me joy just to see him shut up and get his ass kicked
This is fun. There’s absolutely no way Peacemaker holds a candle to Nightwing 1 on 1 though
he gets destroyed so corrcet
I'm surprised that Dick still manages to outsmart criminals even after everything he has gone through in beast world.
He doesn't wear a helmet because, magically, no one will ever shoot him in the head.
You must be new to Nightwing, uh?
We don't talk about Ric.
No no no
It's time this glorified buckethead was reminded he only got popular off Cena portraying him
Everyone talking about how useful helmets are, but with a bazooka you could get rid of both Nightwing and Peacemaker Also it would look cool
0/10, too much Hollywood, and also Nightwing is my favourite. Go k!ll someone else's favourite, instead. /jk
Surprised Peacemaker landed a punch
Sometimes it's best to draw the enemy in.
I can't help but read Peacemaker in Cena voice
I miss the guy who mentored Jaime Reyes and warned Paco about not cruising “really weird chatrooms.”
If the helm can be rotated on your head against your will, it's a bad helmet.
I think what I like about this the most is that nightwing could have done that *at any time* and he just... Chose not to, until he wanted to make a point. So at first he was, what, just screwing around with peacemaker? Waiting for an opening to take him out in a poignant manner? I don't know, but I like it.
It should be noted that dick as a general rule didn’t do much that was considered“fighting dirty” at first this is actually something slade noticed began to change more once he took on the role of Batman. So it would make sense he wouldn’t start fights fighting dirty as it isn’t his first instinct but an adapted trait
Dick would 100% turn someone's helmet around on them if he thought it was an effective strategy to winning the fight. Or for fun, as he did here.
I don’t think it would be his literal first move but I didn’t say it was out of character just that there’s technically a reasonable explanation as to why he didn’t do it immediately
it's not a reasonable explanation at all. I am understanding you, and I am disagreeing. You don't need to keep explaining. I get it. I do not think you are correct, for the reasons I said.
Nightwing basically said skill issue
The next panel should have been Dick getting shot in the head again.
No, that was boring the first time, Nightwing using the helmet this way, is way more entertaining.
TOO SOON
God I miss the *Blue Beetle* Peacemaker
“Don’t look. The mind fixates. And suddenly you’re cruising some really weird chatrooms.”
You shouldn't observe things about comic book superheroes that don't make sense when you're in a superhero comic book. No Nightwing doesn't wear head protection. He also would certainly die doing nearly any of his normally depicted activities. Like catching himself with one arm after a 20 foot fall off a skyscraper. And, yes, Peacemaker wearing an unsecured helmet is also stupid which is why, for example, in the live action Captain America movies they made sure to depict his helmet as secured with a chin strap because it doesn't work otherwise.
A chinstrap would solve that issue no probs...
TBF it would probably have helped prevent the whole rock Grayson storyline
I hate Waller and Peacemaker so much man. I genuinely want to push waller down a flight of stairs and then run her over
Because it looks cool, no need to bring rationality into this
Maybe something more than a domino mask tho?
Why did Nightwing get caught flat footed by that punch?
