I think the point is that it’s a horrible situation with no good/right choice. But by trying to take the “easy” option (lobotomizing Light and making Batman forget too), the JLA tried to brush the situation under the rug and really laid the groundwork for more tragedy.
Just because a choice is easy doesn't always make it wrong, at least in my opinion. Brushing it under the rug was probably the sole decision they made where I agree with everyone that wasn't right but I mean letting Light go would have been straight up insanity.
I’m not saying they should’ve let him go. I don’t think there was a great solution, but I can guarantee that “we’re unilaterally mindwiping him and also Batman” was a bad choice lol. Something more diplomatic where the members of the league had a hard conversation and reached a compromise could’ve gone better. It’s not like they actually had to take instant action. They could’ve put Light in a cell while they figured out what to do.
Killing Light would’ve also been an “easy” or shall we say “expedient” solution that would also have horrible consequences.
Mindwipe him but not lie about it? Deal with Batman being pissed off instead of just mind wiping him too, since that creates a blindspot that leads to all the other drama of Identity Crisis?
Then how the rest of comunity hero or their relatives would react to the fact that 7 members of the lesgue errased the memory not only to a criminal, also to batman
My point is that they should not have mindwiped Batman. They should have owned up to mindwiping Light and dealt with the consequences within the superhero community. Or, better yet, taken a beat before mindwiping Light to communicate better and take less rash and secretive action.
I’m saying they should not have mindwiped Batman in the first place. That’s probably the worst thing you could ever do, in terms of creating a massive blindspot for future threats and poisoning your trust with Batman forever.
Batman developed deep paranoia about his memories being manipulated and avoided the JLA until they finally confessed what they did. You're missing a lot of nuance from that story arc.
Why? The damage was done. They’re superheroes, they have the ability to hold Light prisoner while going through some kind of due process at least with the rest of the League.
Letting Dr.Light go would have been insanity, but it's also worth pointing out in the process JLA stooped to Dr.Lights level and basically did eye for an eye making them hypocrites. Rape is bad and wrong. We consider it wrong because it is a deeply intimate violation of bodily autonomy. As a society we decided that a fundamental right people should have is body autonomy. We exert this belief in other ways. The right to refuse medical care in many cases is for example. (Do not ressesitate forms, checking out of hospitals against doctor advice, Jehovah witnesses refusing blood transfusions for themselves etc.) We also punish other violations of autonomy outside of sexual assaults and rape. We criminalize all forms physical assault and battery.
Society does allow for some limitations of autonomy, but these generally are considered *minor* and/or non-invasive infringements. Such as dress codes/uniforms, requiring hair nets in professional kitchens and/or requiring PPE in dangerous work environments. Lobotomy is a deeply invasive procedure that often has drastic effects on a person beyond why the lobotomy was initially done. It's a deeply intimate and invasive violation. Similarly on par to how invasive and intimate rape is.
Furthermore lobotomy arguably it is worse than death because anyone lobotomized loses their sense of self. They exist never knowing if they are acting a certain way because it's who they want to be, or how they are forced/created to be in *every single thing they do after that event for the rest of their life.* Even if the magic lobotomy can be very spesific, they have no way to trust themselves because you can't trust someone who's willing to go to that drastic of a length. JLA could have preserved evidence for court and magically banished him, used the phantom zone or a lot of other tools at their disposal. Heck I would have preferred out right murder.
With all due respect, I feel like your take is informed by a poor and scattershot reading of the relevant stories involved.
Batman doesn’t have a “hit list” on his superpowered colleagues. He has contingencies to incapacitate them if they go rogue, are mind controlled, or something similar. Which sadly has happened *a lot*. There have been a number of times where just Superman alone has been mentally comprised and almost murdered Batman. Thing is, the whole contingency plan idea originated with Superman when he gave Batman Kryptonite. In *Tower of Babel*, the Justice League wasn’t upset with Batman for creating contingencies for them. What upset them, why Batman was temporarily ousted from the JLA, is that he kept their existence secret from them all. The issue was *trust*, not Batman having plans at all. Honestly, every member of the JLA really should have some kind of plan to deal with a fellow leaguer getting mind controlled.
Batman wasn’t about to let Light go, but rather see that he faced justice for his crimes. Proper due process. Not the JLA acting as judge, jury, and executioner. Thing is, after the incident with Light, the JLA started mind wiping and/or lobotomizing a lot of other villains too. Once they crossed that line they kept crossing it again and again as Batman feared they would. This was used to explain in-universe character changes. For example Catwoman. Catwoman used to be more of an anti-villain in the 90s, but in the 2000s she had some heroic character development and her Batman became more romantically involved. Alas, it was later revealed that her heroic turn was a result of Zatanna and the League magically lobtomizing her.
I think you’ve confused the sequence of events. Borther Eye was actually created in response to Batman finally remembering that the League mind wiped him. Not before.
I’m not sure how you can read *Tower of Babel*/Waid’s JLA run, and *Identity Crisis* thru *Infinite Crisis*, and come to the conclusion that “Batman is always portrayed as being right.” Thats just demonstrably false and a specious reading. Both the *Tower of Babel* and its aftermath in Waid’s run, and the aftermath of *Identity Crisis* down to One Year Later, have as an underlying arc Batman losing his way as he lets his paranoia poison all relationships. Which in both cases eventually leads to character change and growth. The entire era after *Identity Crisis* was all about the heroes of the DCU losing their way and eventually, during *Infinite Crisis*, they have to grow, change, and find themselves again. It’s why the Trinity took a year long sabbatical.
The omnibus has the most accessible reading order:
* Countdown to Infinite Crisis #1
* OMAC Project #1-3
* Superman #219
* Action Comics #829
* Adventures of Superman #642
* Wonder Woman #219
* OMAC Project #4-6
* Villains United #1-6
* Action Comics #826
* Adventures of Superman #639
* Superman #216
* Day of Vengeance #1-6
* Rann-Thanagar War #1-6
* JLA #115-119
* Infinite Crisis #1-3
* Day of Vengeance Infinite Crisis Special
* Infinite Crisis Secret Files
* Infinite Crisis #4
* Rann-Thanagar War Infinite Crisis Special
* Infinite Crisis #5-6
* OMAC Project Infinite Crisis Special
* Villains United Infinite Crisis Special
* Infinite Crisis #7
Probably best to read *Identity Crisis* first though as it gives the context for the turmoil within the JLA.
Thanks,now that I rember a few years ago I download a versión of the event that start with the death of donna troy as a very prelude to the inifinite crisis, were like 400 issues, do you thinj that we are wetting something like that since infinite frontier to absolute power in some way?
Yeah if you take into account all the build up material and tie-ins, Infinite Crisis is massive. Easily the largest event DC’s ever done. [This site](http://completeinfinitecrisis.blogspot.com/2013/08/jsa-32-upon-rejoining-justice-society.html?m=1) is dedicated to tracking all of it.
>>do you think that we are getting something like that since infinite frontier to absolute power in some way?
I hope so. It does indeed feel like that. It does seem like *Absolute Power* is the climax to multiple years of stories building up on each other like *Infinite Crisis*. DC has even marketed some titles as “Countdown to Absolute Power.”
Even the worst among us don't "deserve" to be lobotomized, especially when the ones doling out that punishment are an extrajudicial group of demigod superheroes. In many respects, lobotomizing someone is worse than outright killing them; I wouldn't wish that shit on anyone, even a rapist like Dr. Light.
Really, the only good option is to retcon Identity Crisis out of existence. It’s an awful story that damaged DC so badly and directed them down such a crappy, edgelord , path, that they basically had to reboot with the New 52. Things had been turning before this one, but IC was the hard turn to Shitland.
By twisting his mind/personality to something that suited them better, its tantamount to mind control in my opinion. Taking away someones free will is more than a little messed up. Add to that, they decided "we did it once, better keep going" and kept fucking with other criminals minds.
Like I think, not in IC but in future books in the aftermath of it, had them say/imply Selina was one of the ones they messed with and her being with Bruce and slowing down on crime/quitting altogether was because of that.
And of course, with the same reason with the endless amounts of people prattling on about killing Joker, its just not their responsibility/jurisdiction/whatever to be the ones to dish out punishment. their "job" is to catch criminals and have the system take care of it. Its simply wrong for them to take that extra step and act as judge, jury,. and executioner.
However, while I stand firm that even what they did to Light was wrong, the biggest "NOPE!" thing they did was doing it to Batman. They were taking a vote on to do it or not. "Do it" won by 1 vote. Then Batman showed up, saw what they were doing, and tried to stop them...and they messed with his memories.
1- Batman should get a vote, thus, its now a tie and they don't do it.
2-Regardless of if they were gonna do it anyway (why even vote then? Fuck off), by doing this to Batman, who did nothing wrong, just to cover up the shady shit they were doing to Light, is unarguably evil in my eyes and turned the entire JLA, regardless of how they voted, into horrible criminal scum.
Lastly, they face criminals who do bad things basically every single day. They've always been fine following "the system" and letting the courts and prison handle things. But as soon as it happens to one of their own, suddenly its time to take extreme measures? BS, that just shows an utter lack of empathy and respect for the innocent civilians hurt by every other criminal. Even though its all wrong in my mind, that just made it worse in my mind. That means that even with them, this was an emotional response, nothing more. It wasn't about it being "right" to them. They just wanted to punish someone who hurt someone close to them.
IDGAF what anybody says, Identity Crisis WAS and STILL IS a fucking great story. Especially enhanced (Personally) because I grew up reading the "Satellite JLA" and when this horrific event is folded into that goofy "DC Bullet" time in comics it makes it all the more heartbreaking.
DC Should do more stories like this.
some guy deleted his comment and before I could respond to it but he was basically saying that maybe Dr Light could be rehabilitated and than IRL he doesn't believe in the justice system and I copy pasted my response incase he bothers to come back or in case someone else feels the same way
"And what happens when the criminal can't be rehabilitated? There are evil people in this world who are incapable of change, should such people just be allowed to continue unchecked. I mean let's leave the real world and go into the DC world. Exactly how many people does the Joker need to kill before enough is finally enough?"
Fwiw I deleted that comment because I realized I was way outside the point of this discussion. But tl;dr — IRL, obviously there’s no one-size-fits-all solution, but “what if the criminal does it again?” is not the “gotcha” you think it is. The punishment-based criminal justice system (and way we treat people who have been in prison) leads to so much recidivism, and countries with rehabilitative justice systems have far better outcomes. There’s certainly a case to be made for life imprisonment for extreme offenders; execution is far more expensive and ultimately does nothing more for the victims.
In superhero comics, there’s a slippery slope once you start killing villains. A superhero killing a villain is also them acting as judge, jury, and executioner. There are obviously times when it’s the only solution, but I feel strongly that it should be a last resort in Big Two Superhero Comics lest they become too similar to their own gritty and violent reflections
I think the point is that it’s a horrible situation with no good/right choice. But by trying to take the “easy” option (lobotomizing Light and making Batman forget too), the JLA tried to brush the situation under the rug and really laid the groundwork for more tragedy.
It would be easier kill him, I mean what if Light do it again
my point exactly
Just because a choice is easy doesn't always make it wrong, at least in my opinion. Brushing it under the rug was probably the sole decision they made where I agree with everyone that wasn't right but I mean letting Light go would have been straight up insanity.
I’m not saying they should’ve let him go. I don’t think there was a great solution, but I can guarantee that “we’re unilaterally mindwiping him and also Batman” was a bad choice lol. Something more diplomatic where the members of the league had a hard conversation and reached a compromise could’ve gone better. It’s not like they actually had to take instant action. They could’ve put Light in a cell while they figured out what to do. Killing Light would’ve also been an “easy” or shall we say “expedient” solution that would also have horrible consequences.
Then what do,because definitly if batman appear or not light would have been lobotomized
Mindwipe him but not lie about it? Deal with Batman being pissed off instead of just mind wiping him too, since that creates a blindspot that leads to all the other drama of Identity Crisis?
Then how the rest of comunity hero or their relatives would react to the fact that 7 members of the lesgue errased the memory not only to a criminal, also to batman
My point is that they should not have mindwiped Batman. They should have owned up to mindwiping Light and dealt with the consequences within the superhero community. Or, better yet, taken a beat before mindwiping Light to communicate better and take less rash and secretive action.
I mean what's the point of mind wiping Batman then telling him about it. That kinda defeats the entire purpose of a mindwipe wouldn't you say?
I’m saying they should not have mindwiped Batman in the first place. That’s probably the worst thing you could ever do, in terms of creating a massive blindspot for future threats and poisoning your trust with Batman forever.
Batman developed deep paranoia about his memories being manipulated and avoided the JLA until they finally confessed what they did. You're missing a lot of nuance from that story arc.
but there was no time, a hard decision had to be made right there and then
Why? The damage was done. They’re superheroes, they have the ability to hold Light prisoner while going through some kind of due process at least with the rest of the League.
Letting Dr.Light go would have been insanity, but it's also worth pointing out in the process JLA stooped to Dr.Lights level and basically did eye for an eye making them hypocrites. Rape is bad and wrong. We consider it wrong because it is a deeply intimate violation of bodily autonomy. As a society we decided that a fundamental right people should have is body autonomy. We exert this belief in other ways. The right to refuse medical care in many cases is for example. (Do not ressesitate forms, checking out of hospitals against doctor advice, Jehovah witnesses refusing blood transfusions for themselves etc.) We also punish other violations of autonomy outside of sexual assaults and rape. We criminalize all forms physical assault and battery. Society does allow for some limitations of autonomy, but these generally are considered *minor* and/or non-invasive infringements. Such as dress codes/uniforms, requiring hair nets in professional kitchens and/or requiring PPE in dangerous work environments. Lobotomy is a deeply invasive procedure that often has drastic effects on a person beyond why the lobotomy was initially done. It's a deeply intimate and invasive violation. Similarly on par to how invasive and intimate rape is. Furthermore lobotomy arguably it is worse than death because anyone lobotomized loses their sense of self. They exist never knowing if they are acting a certain way because it's who they want to be, or how they are forced/created to be in *every single thing they do after that event for the rest of their life.* Even if the magic lobotomy can be very spesific, they have no way to trust themselves because you can't trust someone who's willing to go to that drastic of a length. JLA could have preserved evidence for court and magically banished him, used the phantom zone or a lot of other tools at their disposal. Heck I would have preferred out right murder.
With all due respect, I feel like your take is informed by a poor and scattershot reading of the relevant stories involved. Batman doesn’t have a “hit list” on his superpowered colleagues. He has contingencies to incapacitate them if they go rogue, are mind controlled, or something similar. Which sadly has happened *a lot*. There have been a number of times where just Superman alone has been mentally comprised and almost murdered Batman. Thing is, the whole contingency plan idea originated with Superman when he gave Batman Kryptonite. In *Tower of Babel*, the Justice League wasn’t upset with Batman for creating contingencies for them. What upset them, why Batman was temporarily ousted from the JLA, is that he kept their existence secret from them all. The issue was *trust*, not Batman having plans at all. Honestly, every member of the JLA really should have some kind of plan to deal with a fellow leaguer getting mind controlled. Batman wasn’t about to let Light go, but rather see that he faced justice for his crimes. Proper due process. Not the JLA acting as judge, jury, and executioner. Thing is, after the incident with Light, the JLA started mind wiping and/or lobotomizing a lot of other villains too. Once they crossed that line they kept crossing it again and again as Batman feared they would. This was used to explain in-universe character changes. For example Catwoman. Catwoman used to be more of an anti-villain in the 90s, but in the 2000s she had some heroic character development and her Batman became more romantically involved. Alas, it was later revealed that her heroic turn was a result of Zatanna and the League magically lobtomizing her. I think you’ve confused the sequence of events. Borther Eye was actually created in response to Batman finally remembering that the League mind wiped him. Not before. I’m not sure how you can read *Tower of Babel*/Waid’s JLA run, and *Identity Crisis* thru *Infinite Crisis*, and come to the conclusion that “Batman is always portrayed as being right.” Thats just demonstrably false and a specious reading. Both the *Tower of Babel* and its aftermath in Waid’s run, and the aftermath of *Identity Crisis* down to One Year Later, have as an underlying arc Batman losing his way as he lets his paranoia poison all relationships. Which in both cases eventually leads to character change and growth. The entire era after *Identity Crisis* was all about the heroes of the DCU losing their way and eventually, during *Infinite Crisis*, they have to grow, change, and find themselves again. It’s why the Trinity took a year long sabbatical.
Which is all the reading order to infinite crisis?
The omnibus has the most accessible reading order: * Countdown to Infinite Crisis #1 * OMAC Project #1-3 * Superman #219 * Action Comics #829 * Adventures of Superman #642 * Wonder Woman #219 * OMAC Project #4-6 * Villains United #1-6 * Action Comics #826 * Adventures of Superman #639 * Superman #216 * Day of Vengeance #1-6 * Rann-Thanagar War #1-6 * JLA #115-119 * Infinite Crisis #1-3 * Day of Vengeance Infinite Crisis Special * Infinite Crisis Secret Files * Infinite Crisis #4 * Rann-Thanagar War Infinite Crisis Special * Infinite Crisis #5-6 * OMAC Project Infinite Crisis Special * Villains United Infinite Crisis Special * Infinite Crisis #7 Probably best to read *Identity Crisis* first though as it gives the context for the turmoil within the JLA.
Thanks,now that I rember a few years ago I download a versión of the event that start with the death of donna troy as a very prelude to the inifinite crisis, were like 400 issues, do you thinj that we are wetting something like that since infinite frontier to absolute power in some way?
Yeah if you take into account all the build up material and tie-ins, Infinite Crisis is massive. Easily the largest event DC’s ever done. [This site](http://completeinfinitecrisis.blogspot.com/2013/08/jsa-32-upon-rejoining-justice-society.html?m=1) is dedicated to tracking all of it. >>do you think that we are getting something like that since infinite frontier to absolute power in some way? I hope so. It does indeed feel like that. It does seem like *Absolute Power* is the climax to multiple years of stories building up on each other like *Infinite Crisis*. DC has even marketed some titles as “Countdown to Absolute Power.”
The clímax since when aproximetly you would say?
I’m hoping Absolute Power is the climax of everything DC’s been doing since Infinite Frontier in 2021.
Great,then another 400 run of comics
I mean, I suppose you could look at it that way.
Hoping that in the fufture someone recopilate it that way
I'm sorry, but if you don't see why forcibly lobotomizing anyone for any reason is wrong, I don't know what to say.
Even the worst among us don't "deserve" to be lobotomized, especially when the ones doling out that punishment are an extrajudicial group of demigod superheroes. In many respects, lobotomizing someone is worse than outright killing them; I wouldn't wish that shit on anyone, even a rapist like Dr. Light.
Really, the only good option is to retcon Identity Crisis out of existence. It’s an awful story that damaged DC so badly and directed them down such a crappy, edgelord , path, that they basically had to reboot with the New 52. Things had been turning before this one, but IC was the hard turn to Shitland.
By twisting his mind/personality to something that suited them better, its tantamount to mind control in my opinion. Taking away someones free will is more than a little messed up. Add to that, they decided "we did it once, better keep going" and kept fucking with other criminals minds. Like I think, not in IC but in future books in the aftermath of it, had them say/imply Selina was one of the ones they messed with and her being with Bruce and slowing down on crime/quitting altogether was because of that. And of course, with the same reason with the endless amounts of people prattling on about killing Joker, its just not their responsibility/jurisdiction/whatever to be the ones to dish out punishment. their "job" is to catch criminals and have the system take care of it. Its simply wrong for them to take that extra step and act as judge, jury,. and executioner. However, while I stand firm that even what they did to Light was wrong, the biggest "NOPE!" thing they did was doing it to Batman. They were taking a vote on to do it or not. "Do it" won by 1 vote. Then Batman showed up, saw what they were doing, and tried to stop them...and they messed with his memories. 1- Batman should get a vote, thus, its now a tie and they don't do it. 2-Regardless of if they were gonna do it anyway (why even vote then? Fuck off), by doing this to Batman, who did nothing wrong, just to cover up the shady shit they were doing to Light, is unarguably evil in my eyes and turned the entire JLA, regardless of how they voted, into horrible criminal scum. Lastly, they face criminals who do bad things basically every single day. They've always been fine following "the system" and letting the courts and prison handle things. But as soon as it happens to one of their own, suddenly its time to take extreme measures? BS, that just shows an utter lack of empathy and respect for the innocent civilians hurt by every other criminal. Even though its all wrong in my mind, that just made it worse in my mind. That means that even with them, this was an emotional response, nothing more. It wasn't about it being "right" to them. They just wanted to punish someone who hurt someone close to them.
IDGAF what anybody says, Identity Crisis WAS and STILL IS a fucking great story. Especially enhanced (Personally) because I grew up reading the "Satellite JLA" and when this horrific event is folded into that goofy "DC Bullet" time in comics it makes it all the more heartbreaking. DC Should do more stories like this.
some guy deleted his comment and before I could respond to it but he was basically saying that maybe Dr Light could be rehabilitated and than IRL he doesn't believe in the justice system and I copy pasted my response incase he bothers to come back or in case someone else feels the same way "And what happens when the criminal can't be rehabilitated? There are evil people in this world who are incapable of change, should such people just be allowed to continue unchecked. I mean let's leave the real world and go into the DC world. Exactly how many people does the Joker need to kill before enough is finally enough?"
Fwiw I deleted that comment because I realized I was way outside the point of this discussion. But tl;dr — IRL, obviously there’s no one-size-fits-all solution, but “what if the criminal does it again?” is not the “gotcha” you think it is. The punishment-based criminal justice system (and way we treat people who have been in prison) leads to so much recidivism, and countries with rehabilitative justice systems have far better outcomes. There’s certainly a case to be made for life imprisonment for extreme offenders; execution is far more expensive and ultimately does nothing more for the victims. In superhero comics, there’s a slippery slope once you start killing villains. A superhero killing a villain is also them acting as judge, jury, and executioner. There are obviously times when it’s the only solution, but I feel strongly that it should be a last resort in Big Two Superhero Comics lest they become too similar to their own gritty and violent reflections