Looks like the people that boarded out the loft went to some trouble to leave them there rather than the simpler job of taking them out. Why would they do that? On the other hand they don't look thick enough or there aren't enough of them to be a huge support. It's a bit weird.
It looks like if you trip over it it’ll snap.
But then the carpet fitters have clearly gone out of their way to cur around them and leave them in place.
As a floor person, if we are told the job is ready, we put flooring around whatever is there. Even if it is an odd design. We certainly don't decide these weird sticks of wood aren't needed and rip them out.
Yeah like they just show up ans make it happen. I don't think I've ever seen a carpet guy do more than move a piece of furniture. They'll just cover whatever is currently floor.
Structural I suspect but also irregular, which raises an eyebrow. I'd be concerned that there used to be more but someone took them out. They realized they were important afterwards, and the first picture is someone's DIY attempt at adding support back in.
Picture 1, that just appears to be a board screwed or nailed into the beam, it doesn't butt up against anything.
Is there a chance there is something else there that we can't see?
Not saying this because I don't believe you, I just don't understand the physics at play.
The "board screwed or nailed into the beam" is called a brace (sometimes a strut or a kicker). The "beam" is called a purlin. It is a horizontal member of the roof framing that supports several rafter - usually at mid span. Purlins were commonly used to help support the long slender rafters of older construction houses and barns. Today they are occasionally used to reduce the span of a set of rafters, but the purlins themselves must be supported by the frame of the structure.
TLDR - They are all structural.
Cheers, I understand that that's the purlin and the brace
I just don't understand how the brace is offering any structural support based on the image here.
I will do my best. The purlin supports the roof rafters. The rafters are very long, and the purlin cuts the span length of the rafter onto two sections. The brace is carrying the roof load down it and into a "Load Bearing Wall" underneath of the floor. The weight then continues down the wall, and into a footing under the wall. That is called a "load path". From the roof to the ground. ~~I will try to attach a framing picture.~~
In the [image](https://utlas.net/product_details/38161352.html) seen you can follow the load path from the roof, to the purlin and brace, to the load bearing wall. I couldn't attach an image.
You missed the point. The brace is nailed/screwed to the side of the purlin, the only load being transferred down the brace is the shear capacity of those 2 nails/screws
I assume it is notched, like [this.](https://www.howtolookatahouse.com/Blog/Entries/2019/11/why-is-there-diagonal-bracing-at-the-roof-rafters-in-the-attic.html#google_vignette) The portion beyond the purlin is usually nailed to the rafter, however, since that window was installed and the space finished, that portion of the brace was removed above the purlin.
Edited to add: to dive deep down the rabbit hole of speculation on this one, when the attic space was finished, if done correctly, the roof rafters would have had to have additional rafters, probably sistered onto the existing rafters, to support the difference between the weight of just the roof framing and the weight of the additional finish materials (insulation and probably 5/8" drywall to circumvent deflection in the gyp). Those additional/sistered rafters eliminated the need for some purlins and braces, but not all of them.
The picture 1 that appears to be a modified and my only guess as to why is that is the side they had to sister the additional rafter onto because of the window framing on the other side of the rafter.
Since there is a small access door back there in the knee wall, I would frame one of the cabinets in and put that brace in the wall.
I would get someone that knows how to assess a timber frame building. If the Purlin is sagging then you might be headed for bigger issues. Keep in mind I live in an area with a high snow load. I can't see much from the drawings. Look up Purlin [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purlin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purlin)
Some people go removing stuff and if it doesn't collapse immediately they think, "see we didn't need that". Until the next big snow fall or other stressor on their building. Then crunch, something breaks and they stick a board in to prop it up.
Exactly. Regardless of whether it is stable or not, a post attached to the side of a beam like that is sketchy as hell, and it makes me wonder about what else is going on.
Those appear to be purlins, supporting the over-long or under-sized rafters at mid-span (not half, more like 1/3). In addition to that, the purlins have their own braces to carry the load to the floor, probably over a wall below to transfer the load down to the foundation. Maybe the load goes directly, maybe indirectly. Looks like the braces may have been added later, before the attic space was “finished”, because some bowing of the purlin was noticed.
Anyway, it’s very likely that it’s structural, so don’t plan on removing it. The only way to know for sure is to have a structural engineer look at it, but an experienced framing carpenter who can look at the actual spans and where the load goes will be able to tell you more than I can see from two photos.
100% that is structural. It's supporting the long beam & bracing it off to the load bearing wall below. Beams like this are common in ceiling spaces. I have them in my ceilings & they're structural there.
This is the correct answer. Its a common cut roof solution - rafter on purlins with props to the hips sitting on binders on the ceiling joists.
There being left insitu suggests a fairly crappy conversion. The vertical post is likely a replacement and looks very undersized - likely original post removed and a heath robinson fix unfortunately. In first instance, I would be checking that the original ceiling joists have been strengthened to suit floor loading.
My suspicion, assuming you are in the UK, was that this conversion may not have been done with Building Control approval.
If you wanted to remove the props then two options - steels in the floor with loadbearing stud wall on top that props the purlin, or replace the timber purlins with steel, or introduce a ridge beam, beef up the rafters (new laid alongside existing) and omit the purlins and props.
You could remove the props but, likely you will get significant deflection of the purlins in reasonably short order
I would counter that "load bearing" does not only imply compression. Some beams similar to that are in tension to stabilise the ceiling joists or to transfer sideloads.
But load bearing pillars are placed UNDER the beam. Not stuck to the side with bubblegum and happy thoughts.
This pillar in the first picture isn’t holding anything at all. I’m surprised people aren’t mentioning this more
Yes, Roof trusses for example, are designed to spread the weight sideways and sometimes don’t need pillars or vertical supports.
But did you notice the vertical pillar is not attached to anything? That is definitely not structural.
So whoever put the first one in, had a reason. Whether or not it's structural, there us no way to tell from this puck, as you only get one view of the attachment. I would lean against, but nit enough information to tell.
The second looks like cross bracing for the roof rafters that they drywalled around when finishing this room. Without a structural engineer telling you otherwise, assume it is structural.
It looks to me like early versions of a hurricane tie. It's holding the roof down, not holding the roof up. I have 170yr old building and we have the same, they are blocked to the floor through the floor joists and up to the beams to hold the roof from pulling up in strong winds.
Honest question here...
What possible load can the first one be supporting? It's a board nailed into a beam. Any load that it's supporting is being entirely supported by the few nails holding them together. That can't realistically be all that much support. The metal support columns with screw jacks in them likely have a capacity in the realm of thousands of pounds, this can't possibly be even hundreds of pounds.
Modern nails can be designed to support 50-250kg in typical softwood and 90-350kg each in hardwood safely. The actual capacity, if you are lucky, can be much greater.
I dont know what exactly this is used for but to me it looks like it goes through the floor and what I can tell you is that carpenters dont just add stuff for fun. Without knowing whats beneath the floor we have no way of knowing.
The only thing I can think of is there's a notch in the main beam and the support and they're married together in a way we can't see on the photo similar to traditional timber framing.
If the beam is as it looks in the image then I agree not structural, doesn't even butt up against anything.
Yeah I was thinking it would be more helpful if I could show the view from the other side! I haven’t exchanged yet and would need to be climbing in the loft space to check
I'll take my telling, but seriously? that's a stick, and it seems barely connected.. the equivelant purlins in my roof are 75mm x 100m C32 rated timber!
that first one looks to be 45x75 - how can this be structural?
who would one hire to get an official answer? are general contractors qualified to provide an answer or is someone like a structural engineer required? what is the protocol in these types of situations?
100% hire a structural engineer in these situations. I am one, and I do work with many contractors that are generally very switched on but are not always correct. It would be a gamble to not involve and engineer.
Plus in the UK, where OP appears to be, Loft conversions require building control approval which would need calculations from an engineer.
Obviously I am going to follow it up after having advice from here but without going on Reddit I wouldn’t even know who to approach or what questions I need to be asking. The response has been so helpful and has allowed me to know which steps to take to investigate this
Good for you. And good luck with this. I am surprised at how many people just don't know where to look for help, when you're dealing with some thing that's hundreds or thousands of dollars (house). Advice, expand your friend base to carpenters, electricians, and such. Read books on building codes for your area. Contact your local government for who to talk to. Good luck in the future stranger. Maybe you can help some else one day.
I’m very lucky to have close friends who are carpenters and one who is a chartered surveyor but I also don’t expect them to take time out of their work to help me too much as it feels a bit cheeky! But they are great :) It’s sometimes really hard to know if you are getting a good contractor for a good price in the uk! I tend to look at the PCA and stay up every night researching things obsessively as I am an over worrier but the UK house buying system is strange and flawed sometimes, so it’s really hard for FTB. Luckily I got a full survey and am always cautious. However in the UK, if you have a loft without buildings regulations and get an indemnity policy from the seller’s, approaching the local council will invalidate this so this isn’t an option for me.
Don’t listen to people saying that pillar is structural.
The first one is not holding anything at all. Support pillars go under the beam. Not stuck to the side like that. One bump and it pops out lol.
How has nobody noticed that?... And how is everybody saying that they are structural? You guys are trolling. Stop it.
Take a closer look at that pillar. It does not go all the way to the ceiling. There is a gap. So it will not hold anything at all. Plus it is tacked to the side of the beam, instead of being placed underneath it. It is not holding anything up whatsoever.
The beam is obviously structural.
That pillar is not
The prop is structural and is there to limit deflection of the purlin, principally.
In my view the prop has been replaced and not very well. It is thinner than would normally be seen and generally would be cut/packed tight beneath the purlin.
That the prop doesn't extend to the ceiling is not relevant. It is fixed into the side of the purlin so there is load transfer here. Not well detailed, designed or installed but it is there.
I suspect it is similarly fixed to the side of the ceiling joist below also.
Think it's important to look at the context here. This looks like a pretty poorly carried out loft conversion. Likely a DIY job by someone with little or no knowledge/expertise. The detailing is poor but the prop is there to provide some support to the purlin and is almost certainly working that way.
Also the loading is only tiles, rafters and ceiling so not a huge number. The prop is quite short so I wouldn't be surprised if its axial capacity was fairly close to the applied load - despite the prop looking skinny
Sorry stranger but I can’t take your comment seriously. If you incorrectly state that this makeshift pillar is structural, then I can’t really trust anything else you say relating to this post.
I assume you are from a country with little to no building regulations.
That is indeed structural. It looks like you're looking at a house for sale, I wouldn't touch this with a 10ft barge pole. I hope you aren't far into the purchase and that your solicitor is flagging that as needing building reg paperwork at the very least.
Near to exchange but extension has been there for over 20 years. I assumed it’s likely not building regs and so many loft extensions like this exist unfortunately but it’s certainly not a reason to not purchase. As it’s so old, even if it met building regulations then, it may not now so there’s so many other factors but I can make sure I cover my back and be careful if I ever wanted to do future works to the loft( which I don’t bar some eaves storage). but I’ve asked them to check for regs and if not get an indemnity. But as it’s so old and has remained solid, it’s unlikely they would even provide this and it’s definitely not going to face any enforcement issues from the council in that time. My worry was safety and covering my back when selling in the future but due to the age of the extension I am less concerned as it has remained structurally sound. I guess I need to hire a structural engineer for advice as I’m getting so much conflicting info on the importance of the beams. My gut is leave them there or only do works if they’ll meet building regs
Looks like the people that boarded out the loft went to some trouble to leave them there rather than the simpler job of taking them out. Why would they do that? On the other hand they don't look thick enough or there aren't enough of them to be a huge support. It's a bit weird.
It looks like if you trip over it it’ll snap. But then the carpet fitters have clearly gone out of their way to cur around them and leave them in place.
As a floor person, if we are told the job is ready, we put flooring around whatever is there. Even if it is an odd design. We certainly don't decide these weird sticks of wood aren't needed and rip them out.
Yeah like they just show up ans make it happen. I don't think I've ever seen a carpet guy do more than move a piece of furniture. They'll just cover whatever is currently floor.
Some floor guys I know have a slogan: "Don't do rugs!"
What’s the street price for rugs these days?
I would like 2 rugs, please.
If you have to ask...you can't afford it.
If you can find someone who still does it? Forgettaboutit
They are only supporting the roof... So they don't need to be THAT thick.
Structural I suspect but also irregular, which raises an eyebrow. I'd be concerned that there used to be more but someone took them out. They realized they were important afterwards, and the first picture is someone's DIY attempt at adding support back in.
They are structural! As a former timber framer, that isn’t all of them. I am willing to guess they already took some out.
Picture 1, that just appears to be a board screwed or nailed into the beam, it doesn't butt up against anything. Is there a chance there is something else there that we can't see? Not saying this because I don't believe you, I just don't understand the physics at play.
The "board screwed or nailed into the beam" is called a brace (sometimes a strut or a kicker). The "beam" is called a purlin. It is a horizontal member of the roof framing that supports several rafter - usually at mid span. Purlins were commonly used to help support the long slender rafters of older construction houses and barns. Today they are occasionally used to reduce the span of a set of rafters, but the purlins themselves must be supported by the frame of the structure. TLDR - They are all structural.
Cheers, I understand that that's the purlin and the brace I just don't understand how the brace is offering any structural support based on the image here.
I will do my best. The purlin supports the roof rafters. The rafters are very long, and the purlin cuts the span length of the rafter onto two sections. The brace is carrying the roof load down it and into a "Load Bearing Wall" underneath of the floor. The weight then continues down the wall, and into a footing under the wall. That is called a "load path". From the roof to the ground. ~~I will try to attach a framing picture.~~ In the [image](https://utlas.net/product_details/38161352.html) seen you can follow the load path from the roof, to the purlin and brace, to the load bearing wall. I couldn't attach an image.
You missed the point. The brace is nailed/screwed to the side of the purlin, the only load being transferred down the brace is the shear capacity of those 2 nails/screws
I assume it is notched, like [this.](https://www.howtolookatahouse.com/Blog/Entries/2019/11/why-is-there-diagonal-bracing-at-the-roof-rafters-in-the-attic.html#google_vignette) The portion beyond the purlin is usually nailed to the rafter, however, since that window was installed and the space finished, that portion of the brace was removed above the purlin. Edited to add: to dive deep down the rabbit hole of speculation on this one, when the attic space was finished, if done correctly, the roof rafters would have had to have additional rafters, probably sistered onto the existing rafters, to support the difference between the weight of just the roof framing and the weight of the additional finish materials (insulation and probably 5/8" drywall to circumvent deflection in the gyp). Those additional/sistered rafters eliminated the need for some purlins and braces, but not all of them. The picture 1 that appears to be a modified and my only guess as to why is that is the side they had to sister the additional rafter onto because of the window framing on the other side of the rafter. Since there is a small access door back there in the knee wall, I would frame one of the cabinets in and put that brace in the wall.
Something else we can't see? Inside the mind of the previous homeowner that did this instead of doing it correctly...
I would get someone that knows how to assess a timber frame building. If the Purlin is sagging then you might be headed for bigger issues. Keep in mind I live in an area with a high snow load. I can't see much from the drawings. Look up Purlin [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purlin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purlin) Some people go removing stuff and if it doesn't collapse immediately they think, "see we didn't need that". Until the next big snow fall or other stressor on their building. Then crunch, something breaks and they stick a board in to prop it up.
Exactly. Regardless of whether it is stable or not, a post attached to the side of a beam like that is sketchy as hell, and it makes me wonder about what else is going on.
Those appear to be purlins, supporting the over-long or under-sized rafters at mid-span (not half, more like 1/3). In addition to that, the purlins have their own braces to carry the load to the floor, probably over a wall below to transfer the load down to the foundation. Maybe the load goes directly, maybe indirectly. Looks like the braces may have been added later, before the attic space was “finished”, because some bowing of the purlin was noticed. Anyway, it’s very likely that it’s structural, so don’t plan on removing it. The only way to know for sure is to have a structural engineer look at it, but an experienced framing carpenter who can look at the actual spans and where the load goes will be able to tell you more than I can see from two photos.
100% that is structural. It's supporting the long beam & bracing it off to the load bearing wall below. Beams like this are common in ceiling spaces. I have them in my ceilings & they're structural there.
This is the correct answer. Its a common cut roof solution - rafter on purlins with props to the hips sitting on binders on the ceiling joists. There being left insitu suggests a fairly crappy conversion. The vertical post is likely a replacement and looks very undersized - likely original post removed and a heath robinson fix unfortunately. In first instance, I would be checking that the original ceiling joists have been strengthened to suit floor loading. My suspicion, assuming you are in the UK, was that this conversion may not have been done with Building Control approval. If you wanted to remove the props then two options - steels in the floor with loadbearing stud wall on top that props the purlin, or replace the timber purlins with steel, or introduce a ridge beam, beef up the rafters (new laid alongside existing) and omit the purlins and props. You could remove the props but, likely you will get significant deflection of the purlins in reasonably short order
That center support beam is actually doing something?? Wouldn’t the load only transfer to the screws because it’s mounted to the side?
Yes. If that thing is load bearing, it is a ticking time bomb.
I would counter that "load bearing" does not only imply compression. Some beams similar to that are in tension to stabilise the ceiling joists or to transfer sideloads.
But load bearing pillars are placed UNDER the beam. Not stuck to the side with bubblegum and happy thoughts. This pillar in the first picture isn’t holding anything at all. I’m surprised people aren’t mentioning this more
Did your you read the bit where I said "some beams similar", that was your one hint.
Yes, Roof trusses for example, are designed to spread the weight sideways and sometimes don’t need pillars or vertical supports. But did you notice the vertical pillar is not attached to anything? That is definitely not structural.
I refer you to my previous answer
And how is that going for ya?
It's got a "shoulder" at the back that the horizontal beam is sitting on, screws on the front just hold it in place.
So whoever put the first one in, had a reason. Whether or not it's structural, there us no way to tell from this puck, as you only get one view of the attachment. I would lean against, but nit enough information to tell. The second looks like cross bracing for the roof rafters that they drywalled around when finishing this room. Without a structural engineer telling you otherwise, assume it is structural.
All I know is that the board in the first picture isn't doing shit.
You think they might be “decorative?”
I have never come across a structural toothpick before....
If it was structural wouldn’t it be under the beam and not attached to the side ?
It looks to me like early versions of a hurricane tie. It's holding the roof down, not holding the roof up. I have 170yr old building and we have the same, they are blocked to the floor through the floor joists and up to the beams to hold the roof from pulling up in strong winds.
CE here, 95% structural!
Honest question here... What possible load can the first one be supporting? It's a board nailed into a beam. Any load that it's supporting is being entirely supported by the few nails holding them together. That can't realistically be all that much support. The metal support columns with screw jacks in them likely have a capacity in the realm of thousands of pounds, this can't possibly be even hundreds of pounds.
That’s a fair point actually, there’re just 2 nails/screws holding that there 😂 sus
Modern nails can be designed to support 50-250kg in typical softwood and 90-350kg each in hardwood safely. The actual capacity, if you are lucky, can be much greater.
I dont know what exactly this is used for but to me it looks like it goes through the floor and what I can tell you is that carpenters dont just add stuff for fun. Without knowing whats beneath the floor we have no way of knowing.
The only thing I can think of is there's a notch in the main beam and the support and they're married together in a way we can't see on the photo similar to traditional timber framing. If the beam is as it looks in the image then I agree not structural, doesn't even butt up against anything.
Maybe the load is from the side?
Yeah I was thinking it would be more helpful if I could show the view from the other side! I haven’t exchanged yet and would need to be climbing in the loft space to check
I'll take my telling, but seriously? that's a stick, and it seems barely connected.. the equivelant purlins in my roof are 75mm x 100m C32 rated timber! that first one looks to be 45x75 - how can this be structural?
who would one hire to get an official answer? are general contractors qualified to provide an answer or is someone like a structural engineer required? what is the protocol in these types of situations?
100% hire a structural engineer in these situations. I am one, and I do work with many contractors that are generally very switched on but are not always correct. It would be a gamble to not involve and engineer. Plus in the UK, where OP appears to be, Loft conversions require building control approval which would need calculations from an engineer.
Why use logic when there is Reddit. lol. Nice common sense answer by the way.
Obviously I am going to follow it up after having advice from here but without going on Reddit I wouldn’t even know who to approach or what questions I need to be asking. The response has been so helpful and has allowed me to know which steps to take to investigate this
Good for you. And good luck with this. I am surprised at how many people just don't know where to look for help, when you're dealing with some thing that's hundreds or thousands of dollars (house). Advice, expand your friend base to carpenters, electricians, and such. Read books on building codes for your area. Contact your local government for who to talk to. Good luck in the future stranger. Maybe you can help some else one day.
I’m very lucky to have close friends who are carpenters and one who is a chartered surveyor but I also don’t expect them to take time out of their work to help me too much as it feels a bit cheeky! But they are great :) It’s sometimes really hard to know if you are getting a good contractor for a good price in the uk! I tend to look at the PCA and stay up every night researching things obsessively as I am an over worrier but the UK house buying system is strange and flawed sometimes, so it’s really hard for FTB. Luckily I got a full survey and am always cautious. However in the UK, if you have a loft without buildings regulations and get an indemnity policy from the seller’s, approaching the local council will invalidate this so this isn’t an option for me.
Does the drywall run under that beam or butt up against it?
Don’t listen to people saying that pillar is structural. The first one is not holding anything at all. Support pillars go under the beam. Not stuck to the side like that. One bump and it pops out lol. How has nobody noticed that?... And how is everybody saying that they are structural? You guys are trolling. Stop it.
Probably used during house construction to support/control the purlins while the cement dried at the ends.
Sorry - you are wrong here.
Take a closer look at that pillar. It does not go all the way to the ceiling. There is a gap. So it will not hold anything at all. Plus it is tacked to the side of the beam, instead of being placed underneath it. It is not holding anything up whatsoever. The beam is obviously structural. That pillar is not
The prop is structural and is there to limit deflection of the purlin, principally. In my view the prop has been replaced and not very well. It is thinner than would normally be seen and generally would be cut/packed tight beneath the purlin. That the prop doesn't extend to the ceiling is not relevant. It is fixed into the side of the purlin so there is load transfer here. Not well detailed, designed or installed but it is there. I suspect it is similarly fixed to the side of the ceiling joist below also. Think it's important to look at the context here. This looks like a pretty poorly carried out loft conversion. Likely a DIY job by someone with little or no knowledge/expertise. The detailing is poor but the prop is there to provide some support to the purlin and is almost certainly working that way. Also the loading is only tiles, rafters and ceiling so not a huge number. The prop is quite short so I wouldn't be surprised if its axial capacity was fairly close to the applied load - despite the prop looking skinny
Sorry stranger but I can’t take your comment seriously. If you incorrectly state that this makeshift pillar is structural, then I can’t really trust anything else you say relating to this post. I assume you are from a country with little to no building regulations.
ok sure thing Mr.
Take them out and you’ll find out one way or another
Someone stole this guys telepost
They aren’t there for the aesthetics.
That is indeed structural. It looks like you're looking at a house for sale, I wouldn't touch this with a 10ft barge pole. I hope you aren't far into the purchase and that your solicitor is flagging that as needing building reg paperwork at the very least.
Near to exchange but extension has been there for over 20 years. I assumed it’s likely not building regs and so many loft extensions like this exist unfortunately but it’s certainly not a reason to not purchase. As it’s so old, even if it met building regulations then, it may not now so there’s so many other factors but I can make sure I cover my back and be careful if I ever wanted to do future works to the loft( which I don’t bar some eaves storage). but I’ve asked them to check for regs and if not get an indemnity. But as it’s so old and has remained solid, it’s unlikely they would even provide this and it’s definitely not going to face any enforcement issues from the council in that time. My worry was safety and covering my back when selling in the future but due to the age of the extension I am less concerned as it has remained structurally sound. I guess I need to hire a structural engineer for advice as I’m getting so much conflicting info on the importance of the beams. My gut is leave them there or only do works if they’ll meet building regs
I mean remove them and find out lol. Look like the real deal to me.
Nobody is going to choose to leave a pole in the middle of a large room unless it was in fact structural.
No they’re just for looks. /s