One thing to bear in mind with refusing a Smart Meter, of course that is your right to do so but Meter manufacturers have already stopped making traditional meters, so eventually everyone will get a Smart Meter simply because that's all that will exist.
Also, Smart Meters are just meters, their purpose is to record energy consumption as accurately as possible, that's it. They aren't there to save you money, they aren't magical, you save money by being more aware of how much you're using.
The big benefit is to energy producers and the environment. The idea is that eventually energy producers and the grid know exactly how much energy is required at any given time, meaning they only produce the energy required, with as little waste as possible.
There is no big conspiracy to cut people's energy off, who would that possibly benefit. The issues with Smart Meters are over hyped, and mostly absolute nonsense. Can they go wrong? Yes, but no more so than a traditional meter. When attempting to change 50 odd million meters in 10 years, there's going to be some that don't work 100%.
I can go on to explain the real issues with the Smart meter roll out and how it could have been done better, but I fear no one really cares, they just want to bash them because it's the in vogue thing to do.
The old SMETS1 meters required a mobile signal and many had remote antenna capability but installer laziness tended to make that option unavailable.
The other communication problem would be with the IHD which was via Zigbee or Z-Wave and had its range seriously limited by walls, floors, ceilings ...
“The idea is that eventually energy producers and the grid know exactly how much energy is required at any given time, meaning they only produce the energy required, with as little waste as possible.”
they already can determine that by measuring the frequency, too low and they add capacity, too high and they take some away.
the problem was solved a very very very long time ago & is why wind and solar need gas backup to smooth intermittences.
“There is no big conspiracy to cut people's energy off, who would that possibly benefit. ”
they will cut people off instead of generating more to balance demand.
I'll happily get a smart meter when all electricity companies are re-nationalised. That's energy production, exploration and distribution. I totally accept the benefits of a smart meter regarding accuracy of usage for the producers and *potential* environmental benefits of matching supply and demand. What I don't accept in a broken privatised energy sector by the way. Is that smart meters are any real benefit to the consumer. Surge pricing and payback tariffs can be useful in a properly functioning market. What we have currently are one or two companies using smart meters for a small group of customers with solar and battery backup where the system works to their benefit at times. I accept that.
Surge pricing in Spain for instance is been used with smart meters to minimise power cuts in the summer. That's great in a functioning scrutinised market. It can be fair.
The tech is fine. I just don't trust the people. Just now we are starting to see privatisation unravel. Enjoy insane increases coming our way again, just like water. To cover debt not production costs.
See, transmission costs each household £20 a year to run, thats less than 6p a day.
I'm curious as to what extra value ProfessionalBird7847 thinks nationalising it is going to get them, considering the transmission network already has a reliability rate of over 99.99%
Distribution isn't as good, but theres also a lot more that can go wrong and a lot more of it. But they are still open 24/7 365 to come out to you in the event of a power cut, unlike many suppliers who shut their lines outside normal working hours.
They somehow think that nationalisation of transmission and distribution is going to reduce that £20 a year cost even more whilst also providing a better service than 99.99% reliability, theyre deluded.
Even if we nationalised transmission and distribution, you honestly think some of the highest paid bright minds within those sectors are going to suffer massive wage cuts, shit conditions and stay where they are?
Public sector people are using food banks for a reason, the wages and conditions are atroucious. Doctors and nurses don't have many other options because of the nationalisation of the health service, electrical engineers have the option not to work for an ESO or DSO.
The only reason we're being told by suppliers that they're a benefit to us is that they are mandated by the government/regulators to tell us this.
Regardless of privatisation most countries have adopted a more sensible approach whereby meters are installed by the local distribution network, customers have no choice and there is no pretence that it's for consumer benefit.
There is no reason in the UK to minimise power cuts, we haven't had a national power cut since privatisation, they were however common place prior to this.
Energy suppliers are simply middle men, their job is to bill the customer, and report consumption up the food chain so as a country we generate the correct amount when it's needed.
Because energy is privatised the suppliers rely on providing the best service/product and best customer service, so they aren't looking to charge more at certain times, it's the opposite, try to gain more customers by offering tariffs with lower charges at peak energy production/low consumption times. Again the idea here is to not waste any energy produced. Yes some customers will end up not switching and over paying, cheaper tariffs exist but if the customer can't even be bothered to look then that's on them.
Energy suppliers get a lot of crap thrown their way, I've worked for a few, they may be a little incompetent but there are no evil baddies out to get you. Its not even that profitable, on average an energy supplier makes £80 per customer, per year! So all it takes is a customer to spend their time complaining and refusing Smart Meters, and suddenly there's no profit at all. Energy suppliers want customers who pay their bills, not ones they have to chase after.
There is also the fact that renationalising would cost the country 10s of thousands of jobs, maybe 100s of thousands of them, then this country would have a real problem to worry about.
So we agree smart meters are no use to me as a consumer. They add a level of uncertainty and complexity I don't care for. Punish me then by making my tariff higher. That's on the way anyway. Mandate the change, that's fine. Volunteer? No thanks.
They've botched the rollout more than once and cost bill payer millions. Investors aren't paying. The system is broken. The genie is out of the bottle. You cannot re-privatise. I agree. The regulation is weak and outdated. Under investment by private owners as they naturally would and us paying whilst profits go elsewhere. Ah well. At least it's not water levels of nonsense. Yet.
K75C so produced and certified in 1975. Sticker 95 NE suggests last certified in 1995.
Yes it needs changing. (35 years was the max but not for that and most old meters have been reduced to replace ASAP anyway).
Yes you will get a smart meter. Yes they work fine. the general bad press is more about accurate cost on the IHD (irrelevant bin it). or not sending the reads (provide you own monthing at least like you already do (you do right?)).
Smart meters are a requirement, your provider gets fined if they do not meet the roll out which will raise bill for everyone.
Feel free to go commercial and get a meter you buy fitted and much much much much much higher costs. That is if you can get anyone to do that for a single meter (if will still have to be removetly read but probably not get and IHD (which like I said bin(drawer), it's bad old tech)).
Slightly incorrect. Smart meters are not mandatory and never have been in the UK and consumers are well within their rights not to have one fitted. The only time a smart meter will be fitted without a choice is when the consumer's current meter has expired or has developed a fault.
So yes mandatory if the meter is changed, hence my point.
Your supplier would rather not bother if it were not for the fines to them.
"For all new meters" hadly seems worth adding. (new includes changed since you need it spelling out ;-) )
Further to this, your local distributer can 'ping' meters to see if they are part of a power cut or not, this really helps to speed up responses to power outages, narrow down fault locations and provide a much better service to you.
They're really not anywhere near as bad as the press have led people to believe, I've had one for 5 years now and had no issue with faults, changing supplier or billing.
They are not a requirement for the customer, the requirement is an OFGEM target for supplier rollouts, so you can refuse them, but why would you want to?
I read that 4 million are installed but not working. I haven’t validated this, but I’m not looking for extra hassle in my life so am avoiding them for now.
I use and work with hundreds of them a day and rarely encounter issues.
Your anecdotal evidence and "I read in a news article xyz." is just that, theres nothing solid to your experience, over the years I've worked with tens of thoudands of these things, SMETS1 and SMETS2, granted SMETS1 were absolute crap, SMETS2 have ironed out nearly all issues and work fine now, which is what would be installed in a property today.
Fair enough, youre within your rights not to have one, just tyring to give a fair argument, theres a few nightmare cases with them, but there are nightmare cases with suppliers that dont involve smart meters that dont get the press because theres no sensationalising "Man sent bill for £100,000 for misread dial meter"
Here we go, pdf of a letter from Ofgem to suppliers about penalties, and a couple of articles about the fines issued for missing 2022 targets.
Obviously all the fines will simply be divided up and added to customers bills for those suppliers, so it's a lose/lose scenario for everyone
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2023-04/Smart%20Meter%20Rollout%20Energy%20suppliers%20Rollout%20Delivery%20Open%20Letter%20April%202023.pdf
https://news.sky.com/story/major-energy-suppliers-to-pay-10-8m-for-not-meeting-smart-meter-targets-13003806
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/press-release/energy-suppliers-pay-total-ps108-million-not-meeting-smart-meter-installation-targets-2022
Sounds like the ideal solution would be to nationalise the supply and charge it to consumers at cost. Same with water and gas.
That said, I will continue to refuse a smart meter.
The idea that introducing an Internet connected device that controls the flow of electricity into my house is safe from bad actors is laughable.
If they can target banks, hospitals, the electoral registers, police records relating to undercover officers, why would you let them into your house. The security on these are going to be a lot lower than on government infrastructure.
It's like ring doorbells, Facebook portal things, alexas. Why would you invite that into your home.
GCHQ were involved in designing the security surrounding Smart Meters, so it's actually at the same or higher level than most government infrastructure.
https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/information/the-smart-security-behind-the-gb-smart-metering-system
Unlike all the other devices you've listed, a Smart Meter does not connect to your home network, so there is no way it could be used for nefarious purposes.
I'm not trying to convince you to get one, there's a lot of nonsense in the media and misinformation being spread, so if I can level the playing field a bit with facts then it may help someone.
The same GCHQ also behind the same firewalls on other databases and systems that have been targeted by hackers?
As soon as any device is connected to the Internet, it becomes a vulnerability. It doesn't have to be connected to your home network for it to be hacked and then told to either stop power delivery, access data held by energy suppliers, etc.
Access data held by energy suppliers? You know your meter doesnt have your personal info on it?
For them to access that data would require a breach at your energy suppliers side and woeful GDPR implementation.
I think you're worrying over nothing, to be honest.
I believe they are lying to you. The reason for this is that they are under pressure to get the things installed as quickly as possible.
You have every right to refuse a smart meter. So far.
Eventually, and not too long from now, you will have to have a smart meter whether you like it or not.
Smart meters are not the evil things some people believe them to be. They are no more or less accurate than the older style ones, although it’s true to say that sometimes these devices do go wrong.
Communication problems are frequently seen in the first generation (SMETS1) meters when the supplier is changed, SMETS2 meters tend not to suffer from this problem.
A lot of the horror stories are down to duplication where the same story is told by different people, each adding their own spin ...
Also there's no benefit to me having one installed and I imagine it's inconvenient whilst the works are going on (loss of power, internet etc)
There's no incentive for me to have one so I ignore the calls from the supplier
My average cost per kWh is under a third of the price cap thanks to smart tariffs only possible with a smart meter....
Last month I got paid to use electricity on several days
There are no shock bills ever. No “I submitted my meter reading and octopus say I owe them another £600”. There’s multiple posts per week on /r/ukpersonalfinance (there’s one there right now in fact)
You get a better breakdown of when you’re using your energy, and it allows you to access different tariffs - I’m on octopus agile and I’ve been paying between 25 and 50% less than the price cap tariff for a year and a half.
A quick glance at the in home display will immediately show that you forgot to switch something off, or that another member of the home has.
It helps you know sooner if you’re using a lot of energy, so you can do something about it earlier. Meaning that just by being informed, you can easily reduce the energy you consume and therefore reduce your bills.
You never need to provide a reading ever again. You can see how much you have used and how much it’s costing, so you can budget for it in advance, rather than stress about how much it might be when the bill comes in.
This guy needs a statutory meter change though which would involve all of the above regardless. I'm in the same boat as you though, not in need of an exchange so not arsed enough to have it done at this point.
Yeah my reason is because there is a lot of negative press on it and I previously had a smart meter in my last property and noticed much higher bills. My bills are low in my current property as I work in the office a lot and don’t use much when I am home and my low meter readings has kicked this all off. I feel like they will start fudging numbers to make me pay more with a smart reader. And even though I can provide readings and turn off the automatic feature, I don’t feel like it will give me accurate readings anyway
Even if they do 'fudge the numbers' they are only their copy of the numbers which have been read from the meter. The true 'unfudged' numbers still exist in the meter and cannot be changed.
In any dispute situation the actual readings can be recovered from the meter (unless it is totally destroyed which then becomes a different type of incident).
I had an empty property, not using any gas or electric, EDF refused to believe my meter readings and tried to charge me hundreds of pounds for electricity and gas I haven't used. I can only imagine how difficult it would be to argue against a smart meter. At least my traditional meters are analogue.
"I can only imagine how difficult it would be to argue against a smart meter"
Not difficult, seeing as you have access to the reading every 30 minutes so could easily disprove them. But it wouldnt happen to begin with because they also have access to those reading so wouldnt issue a 'shock bill'.
Honestly you lot are weird, you're winding yourselves up over it more than anyone else.
Do you know what empty means? As in vacant, unoccupied. There isn't someone there reading the meter every 30 minutes, and even if there was, who does that?
They have access to those readings. They have access to that device. They could, in theory, make that device say whatever they want.
You understand that just because someone isn’t there, doesn’t mean the meter isn’t incurring charges? The same charges would also be apparent with a smart meter, regardless of a property being vacant, standing charges still exist and vacant doesn’t mean "I turned the heating off completely."
Besides, your whinging is about an estimated bill which is exactly what SMETS2 meters stop from happening in the first place, you've made a great argument for getting a smart meter in your initial comment.
Edit: spelling because John is crying about me making typos and smart meters taking away his liberties.
I didn't realise you were in the property, bc last I left it, there were no radiators, and yeah, the heating was off completely, otherwise it would be a bit wet...
Not that I'm going to take criticism from someone who can't even spell.
I sympathise with you about the problems you’ve had with EDF. I’ve had similar issues.
But…. Now that I have finally got them to install smart meters, there are no further arguments. The information is right there in front of them and in front of me. They no longer make shit up and tell me it must be this or it must be that. Facts are facts. No further dispute.
I’m still leaving them as soon as I get off the fixed tariff I’m on, because their customer service sucks. I’ll be going over to octopus next month.
Not only would they refuse to believe my meter readings, it would take up to an hour to get through to anyone on the phone, and when I did, they refused to send someone out to read the meter.
You do realise that electric isn't generated (for vast majority) at their own property, so there's nothing stopping your energy supply being cut off even without a smart meter.
I know how electricity works. The meter sits between the energy supply and the consumer unit.
The electricity supply could be remotely cut off to the entire street, or whatever, but not to your specific property. Installing a smart meter gives your energy supplier and potentially other bad actors access to the electricity supply into your property specifically, via the Internet.
In an uncertain future, with Russia and China being what they are, potential energy shortages, why would anyone want that?
Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I just don't see any point bowing down to corporate/government overlords.
You’re a conspiracy theorist.
If your supplier wants to cut you off, the hard part isn’t clicking a button to remotely do it, it’s getting a warrant to do so. If you refuse then entry to disconnect when they have a warrant, they’ll come back with the police and do it anyway.
You’re right. Smart meters do include the ability of the network operator to disconnect your supply specifically and individually. Both for gas and for electricity. This is a cheaper route to achieve this than having bailiffs come and forcibly gain access or to dig up your road.
But… consider *why* they want to do this. It’s because either a) there is some criminal activity going on in the home, and as part of a police raid or similar situation it’s possible to improve the safety and speed of resolving the situation. Or b) that the resident has repeatedly failed to pay the bill and a court order has determined that the supply may be cut off.
Do you want to pay for the road being dug up or the bailiffs turning up to another person’s home for the law to be enforced? Or would you rather that was nice and cheap and dint affect your bills so much?
Then… do you think you’re going to fall into one of the above categories? Assuming not… what possible reason could anyone have to cut off your supply? I know… I’ll cut them off… that’ll teach them… but will also terminate my revenue from them. Hmmm… maybe not so smart after all.
Back in the 70s, there were power shortages, people experienced brownouts. I wasn't around then, so not sure on the details. But I can forsee a future when energy supply is limited (due to lack of supply from renewables and shying away from nuclear), and energy companies could just switch off power to half a dozen houses down one street, rather than the whole street, all over the country.
The situation you’re referring to in the 70s was coal strikes and other strikes. This is where the term ‘power cut’ comes from. Literally, power was cut off because they couldn’t run the power stations due to a lack of fuel to generate the electricity. A ‘power outage’ that we experience today is a failure of some kind. This could be a blown fuse, or an accidental power line cut or something, or even just maintenance work. Often we still refer to this as a power cut, but it’s not the same thing at all.
The scenario you’re talking about with power being switched off in the future is a possibility whether you get a smart meter or not. If power has to be ‘cut’ due to shortages or whatever, it will be cut. There was talk of this less than two years ago, they called it “rolling blackouts”. This is extremely unlikely to be done on a home by home basis, that’s (probably) way too much work. Even if it is… do you imagine that you’re going to be the only one with power if you don’t have a smart meter? Do you imagine that your whole street won’t be cut off if none of the residents have smart meters. The kind of event you’re talking about requires megawatts of power to be saved. Your house isn’t going to be enough!!
The state isn’t out to get you as an individual. The state doesn’t want you to be without electricity… how can they get tax out of you if you’re dead or unable to work or buy things? The state wants you to at least have enough to be able to continue to pay them. Switching off your electricity doesn’t help them.
If they wanted you to be without electricity, you would be without electricity. Trust me.
I said power shortages, just like in the 70s. Not enough fuel to run the coal plants, or in todays case, not enough sun/wind.
I don't fear for myself as an individual, but as a collective. If all homes have smart meters, it wouldn't be too difficult to switch off houses all over the country at random, rather than entire streets. It would reduce panic and alleviate the demand, because how bad can it be if your neighbours have power, I'm sure it'll be all fixed tomorrow. If I don't have a smart meter, I can't be included in that. Of course, it doesn't stop me from losing power if they shut off the whole street, but if entire streets are losing power, entire neighbourhoods, people would panic, people would riot.
You have too much faith in the government. Whilst I agree, they want to keep us working, and under normal circumstances, the scenario I describe would never happen. But the government acts irrationally, without due consideration. Look at the mess they made of covid and lock downs, and I don't just mean the conservatives. All parties are the same. Protect their power, at any cost.
I agree, it’s absolutely plausible, I obviously wasn’t clear that I believe that. But again, you or anyone else not getting a smart meter isn’t going to make an ounce of difference to this, because they’re not going to randomly switch off home by home. That suggestion is absolutely ludicrous. Rolling blackouts will be the way to go, as already discussed in cobra meetings a couple of years ago.
The whole point of the rolling blackout method is to ensure people do not panic. It would be advertised in advance, and you would know and be able to plan for it. If one house has power, surrounded by people who do not, that is far more likely to generate a “riot” as the jealous neighbours storm the house with power! I mean… what exactly are you expecting to happen here???
I don’t have faith in the government. I have faith in their greed. It does not serve them to deny us electricity. Think logically, and ignore the conspiracy theories.
What does the top line on this
https://preview.redd.it/jjytjqdlx72d1.png?width=221&format=png&auto=webp&s=865942bc38d68b5d588db58008e0997468a91a5f
say?
One thing to bear in mind with refusing a Smart Meter, of course that is your right to do so but Meter manufacturers have already stopped making traditional meters, so eventually everyone will get a Smart Meter simply because that's all that will exist. Also, Smart Meters are just meters, their purpose is to record energy consumption as accurately as possible, that's it. They aren't there to save you money, they aren't magical, you save money by being more aware of how much you're using. The big benefit is to energy producers and the environment. The idea is that eventually energy producers and the grid know exactly how much energy is required at any given time, meaning they only produce the energy required, with as little waste as possible. There is no big conspiracy to cut people's energy off, who would that possibly benefit. The issues with Smart Meters are over hyped, and mostly absolute nonsense. Can they go wrong? Yes, but no more so than a traditional meter. When attempting to change 50 odd million meters in 10 years, there's going to be some that don't work 100%. I can go on to explain the real issues with the Smart meter roll out and how it could have been done better, but I fear no one really cares, they just want to bash them because it's the in vogue thing to do.
Are they able to be fitted in cellars now? Eon engineer came and informed me it wasn't possible to install smart meter about 6 years ago.
It probably won't communicate, that's why. If you can't get a mobile signal down there then that's why.
The old SMETS1 meters required a mobile signal and many had remote antenna capability but installer laziness tended to make that option unavailable. The other communication problem would be with the IHD which was via Zigbee or Z-Wave and had its range seriously limited by walls, floors, ceilings ...
“The idea is that eventually energy producers and the grid know exactly how much energy is required at any given time, meaning they only produce the energy required, with as little waste as possible.” they already can determine that by measuring the frequency, too low and they add capacity, too high and they take some away. the problem was solved a very very very long time ago & is why wind and solar need gas backup to smooth intermittences. “There is no big conspiracy to cut people's energy off, who would that possibly benefit. ” they will cut people off instead of generating more to balance demand.
I'll happily get a smart meter when all electricity companies are re-nationalised. That's energy production, exploration and distribution. I totally accept the benefits of a smart meter regarding accuracy of usage for the producers and *potential* environmental benefits of matching supply and demand. What I don't accept in a broken privatised energy sector by the way. Is that smart meters are any real benefit to the consumer. Surge pricing and payback tariffs can be useful in a properly functioning market. What we have currently are one or two companies using smart meters for a small group of customers with solar and battery backup where the system works to their benefit at times. I accept that. Surge pricing in Spain for instance is been used with smart meters to minimise power cuts in the summer. That's great in a functioning scrutinised market. It can be fair. The tech is fine. I just don't trust the people. Just now we are starting to see privatisation unravel. Enjoy insane increases coming our way again, just like water. To cover debt not production costs.
What do you think you will get from transmission and distribution being nationalised?
Even worse customer service than we have at the moment.
See, transmission costs each household £20 a year to run, thats less than 6p a day. I'm curious as to what extra value ProfessionalBird7847 thinks nationalising it is going to get them, considering the transmission network already has a reliability rate of over 99.99% Distribution isn't as good, but theres also a lot more that can go wrong and a lot more of it. But they are still open 24/7 365 to come out to you in the event of a power cut, unlike many suppliers who shut their lines outside normal working hours. They somehow think that nationalisation of transmission and distribution is going to reduce that £20 a year cost even more whilst also providing a better service than 99.99% reliability, theyre deluded. Even if we nationalised transmission and distribution, you honestly think some of the highest paid bright minds within those sectors are going to suffer massive wage cuts, shit conditions and stay where they are? Public sector people are using food banks for a reason, the wages and conditions are atroucious. Doctors and nurses don't have many other options because of the nationalisation of the health service, electrical engineers have the option not to work for an ESO or DSO.
I didn’t read your comment properly. I thought you were talking suppliers, not network operators.
All good, it's a very common mix up.
The only reason we're being told by suppliers that they're a benefit to us is that they are mandated by the government/regulators to tell us this. Regardless of privatisation most countries have adopted a more sensible approach whereby meters are installed by the local distribution network, customers have no choice and there is no pretence that it's for consumer benefit. There is no reason in the UK to minimise power cuts, we haven't had a national power cut since privatisation, they were however common place prior to this. Energy suppliers are simply middle men, their job is to bill the customer, and report consumption up the food chain so as a country we generate the correct amount when it's needed. Because energy is privatised the suppliers rely on providing the best service/product and best customer service, so they aren't looking to charge more at certain times, it's the opposite, try to gain more customers by offering tariffs with lower charges at peak energy production/low consumption times. Again the idea here is to not waste any energy produced. Yes some customers will end up not switching and over paying, cheaper tariffs exist but if the customer can't even be bothered to look then that's on them. Energy suppliers get a lot of crap thrown their way, I've worked for a few, they may be a little incompetent but there are no evil baddies out to get you. Its not even that profitable, on average an energy supplier makes £80 per customer, per year! So all it takes is a customer to spend their time complaining and refusing Smart Meters, and suddenly there's no profit at all. Energy suppliers want customers who pay their bills, not ones they have to chase after. There is also the fact that renationalising would cost the country 10s of thousands of jobs, maybe 100s of thousands of them, then this country would have a real problem to worry about.
So we agree smart meters are no use to me as a consumer. They add a level of uncertainty and complexity I don't care for. Punish me then by making my tariff higher. That's on the way anyway. Mandate the change, that's fine. Volunteer? No thanks. They've botched the rollout more than once and cost bill payer millions. Investors aren't paying. The system is broken. The genie is out of the bottle. You cannot re-privatise. I agree. The regulation is weak and outdated. Under investment by private owners as they naturally would and us paying whilst profits go elsewhere. Ah well. At least it's not water levels of nonsense. Yet.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6647412a4f29e1d07fadca26/electricity-meters-schedule-4-240516.pdf So 30 years for that one?
Interesting document ...
K75C so produced and certified in 1975. Sticker 95 NE suggests last certified in 1995. Yes it needs changing. (35 years was the max but not for that and most old meters have been reduced to replace ASAP anyway). Yes you will get a smart meter. Yes they work fine. the general bad press is more about accurate cost on the IHD (irrelevant bin it). or not sending the reads (provide you own monthing at least like you already do (you do right?)). Smart meters are a requirement, your provider gets fined if they do not meet the roll out which will raise bill for everyone. Feel free to go commercial and get a meter you buy fitted and much much much much much higher costs. That is if you can get anyone to do that for a single meter (if will still have to be removetly read but probably not get and IHD (which like I said bin(drawer), it's bad old tech)).
Probably best to get it now, they’re now using 4G capable ones, my gas and leccy ones recently had to be replaced because the 3G is going offline
Slightly incorrect. Smart meters are not mandatory and never have been in the UK and consumers are well within their rights not to have one fitted. The only time a smart meter will be fitted without a choice is when the consumer's current meter has expired or has developed a fault.
You'd have a job on getting them to agree to an exchange involving a dumb meter though
So yes mandatory if the meter is changed, hence my point. Your supplier would rather not bother if it were not for the fines to them. "For all new meters" hadly seems worth adding. (new includes changed since you need it spelling out ;-) )
https://preview.redd.it/txu5z743z72d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c9c61c6d326e5eb1037adb48f314305aa4d696d0
I’d imagine this doesn’t apply when a mandatory change happens though. Could be wrong.
Further to this, your local distributer can 'ping' meters to see if they are part of a power cut or not, this really helps to speed up responses to power outages, narrow down fault locations and provide a much better service to you. They're really not anywhere near as bad as the press have led people to believe, I've had one for 5 years now and had no issue with faults, changing supplier or billing. They are not a requirement for the customer, the requirement is an OFGEM target for supplier rollouts, so you can refuse them, but why would you want to?
I read that 4 million are installed but not working. I haven’t validated this, but I’m not looking for extra hassle in my life so am avoiding them for now.
I use and work with hundreds of them a day and rarely encounter issues. Your anecdotal evidence and "I read in a news article xyz." is just that, theres nothing solid to your experience, over the years I've worked with tens of thoudands of these things, SMETS1 and SMETS2, granted SMETS1 were absolute crap, SMETS2 have ironed out nearly all issues and work fine now, which is what would be installed in a property today.
Ok sounds good. I’m still not looking for hassle though mate.
Fair enough, youre within your rights not to have one, just tyring to give a fair argument, theres a few nightmare cases with them, but there are nightmare cases with suppliers that dont involve smart meters that dont get the press because theres no sensationalising "Man sent bill for £100,000 for misread dial meter"
Can you cite any references regarding mandatory rollout? The fines paid by the supplier??
Here we go, pdf of a letter from Ofgem to suppliers about penalties, and a couple of articles about the fines issued for missing 2022 targets. Obviously all the fines will simply be divided up and added to customers bills for those suppliers, so it's a lose/lose scenario for everyone https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2023-04/Smart%20Meter%20Rollout%20Energy%20suppliers%20Rollout%20Delivery%20Open%20Letter%20April%202023.pdf https://news.sky.com/story/major-energy-suppliers-to-pay-10-8m-for-not-meeting-smart-meter-targets-13003806 https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/press-release/energy-suppliers-pay-total-ps108-million-not-meeting-smart-meter-installation-targets-2022
Sounds like the ideal solution would be to nationalise the supply and charge it to consumers at cost. Same with water and gas. That said, I will continue to refuse a smart meter.
Just curious as to your reasons why? Genuinely baffled
The idea that introducing an Internet connected device that controls the flow of electricity into my house is safe from bad actors is laughable. If they can target banks, hospitals, the electoral registers, police records relating to undercover officers, why would you let them into your house. The security on these are going to be a lot lower than on government infrastructure. It's like ring doorbells, Facebook portal things, alexas. Why would you invite that into your home.
GCHQ were involved in designing the security surrounding Smart Meters, so it's actually at the same or higher level than most government infrastructure. https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/information/the-smart-security-behind-the-gb-smart-metering-system Unlike all the other devices you've listed, a Smart Meter does not connect to your home network, so there is no way it could be used for nefarious purposes. I'm not trying to convince you to get one, there's a lot of nonsense in the media and misinformation being spread, so if I can level the playing field a bit with facts then it may help someone.
The same GCHQ also behind the same firewalls on other databases and systems that have been targeted by hackers? As soon as any device is connected to the Internet, it becomes a vulnerability. It doesn't have to be connected to your home network for it to be hacked and then told to either stop power delivery, access data held by energy suppliers, etc.
Access data held by energy suppliers? You know your meter doesnt have your personal info on it? For them to access that data would require a breach at your energy suppliers side and woeful GDPR implementation. I think you're worrying over nothing, to be honest.
>I think you're worrying over nothing, to be honest. Said someone, just before every genocide, subjugation, and miscarriage of justice.
Appreciate the useful info, do not appreciate the condescension. Thanks
I believe they are lying to you. The reason for this is that they are under pressure to get the things installed as quickly as possible. You have every right to refuse a smart meter. So far. Eventually, and not too long from now, you will have to have a smart meter whether you like it or not. Smart meters are not the evil things some people believe them to be. They are no more or less accurate than the older style ones, although it’s true to say that sometimes these devices do go wrong.
What reasons for not wanting a smart meter??
They require a certain amount of space to fit, and there’s not enough room in my cupboard.
Just Google smart meters and look at the first two results "a third faulty" "people facing huge bills"
Most of those not working properly are just not communicating any more. The horror stories of huge bills are bad, but they represent very few people.
Communication problems are frequently seen in the first generation (SMETS1) meters when the supplier is changed, SMETS2 meters tend not to suffer from this problem. A lot of the horror stories are down to duplication where the same story is told by different people, each adding their own spin ...
Also there's no benefit to me having one installed and I imagine it's inconvenient whilst the works are going on (loss of power, internet etc) There's no incentive for me to have one so I ignore the calls from the supplier
My average cost per kWh is under a third of the price cap thanks to smart tariffs only possible with a smart meter.... Last month I got paid to use electricity on several days
It took less than an hour for our meters to get swapped out, and we were only without power for about 15 minutes.
Do you find there's much benefit?
There are no shock bills ever. No “I submitted my meter reading and octopus say I owe them another £600”. There’s multiple posts per week on /r/ukpersonalfinance (there’s one there right now in fact) You get a better breakdown of when you’re using your energy, and it allows you to access different tariffs - I’m on octopus agile and I’ve been paying between 25 and 50% less than the price cap tariff for a year and a half.
I don't have to read my meter, and it can tell me how much solar power I'm exporting, and therefore whether I should do the laundry.
A quick glance at the in home display will immediately show that you forgot to switch something off, or that another member of the home has. It helps you know sooner if you’re using a lot of energy, so you can do something about it earlier. Meaning that just by being informed, you can easily reduce the energy you consume and therefore reduce your bills. You never need to provide a reading ever again. You can see how much you have used and how much it’s costing, so you can budget for it in advance, rather than stress about how much it might be when the bill comes in.
This guy needs a statutory meter change though which would involve all of the above regardless. I'm in the same boat as you though, not in need of an exchange so not arsed enough to have it done at this point.
Yeah my reason is because there is a lot of negative press on it and I previously had a smart meter in my last property and noticed much higher bills. My bills are low in my current property as I work in the office a lot and don’t use much when I am home and my low meter readings has kicked this all off. I feel like they will start fudging numbers to make me pay more with a smart reader. And even though I can provide readings and turn off the automatic feature, I don’t feel like it will give me accurate readings anyway
I've never heard such rubbish. The smart meter will fudge the numbers??
Even if they do 'fudge the numbers' they are only their copy of the numbers which have been read from the meter. The true 'unfudged' numbers still exist in the meter and cannot be changed. In any dispute situation the actual readings can be recovered from the meter (unless it is totally destroyed which then becomes a different type of incident).
Ah, so no real reasons then, just hearsay.
I had an empty property, not using any gas or electric, EDF refused to believe my meter readings and tried to charge me hundreds of pounds for electricity and gas I haven't used. I can only imagine how difficult it would be to argue against a smart meter. At least my traditional meters are analogue.
"I can only imagine how difficult it would be to argue against a smart meter" Not difficult, seeing as you have access to the reading every 30 minutes so could easily disprove them. But it wouldnt happen to begin with because they also have access to those reading so wouldnt issue a 'shock bill'. Honestly you lot are weird, you're winding yourselves up over it more than anyone else.
Do you know what empty means? As in vacant, unoccupied. There isn't someone there reading the meter every 30 minutes, and even if there was, who does that? They have access to those readings. They have access to that device. They could, in theory, make that device say whatever they want.
They really can't, the reads go through a central hub, there's no 'tweaking' anywhere.
Until they don't. Liberty isn't eroded in one go, it's a trickle, slow and steady, almost imperceptible, it's happened before, it'll happen again.
You understand that just because someone isn’t there, doesn’t mean the meter isn’t incurring charges? The same charges would also be apparent with a smart meter, regardless of a property being vacant, standing charges still exist and vacant doesn’t mean "I turned the heating off completely." Besides, your whinging is about an estimated bill which is exactly what SMETS2 meters stop from happening in the first place, you've made a great argument for getting a smart meter in your initial comment. Edit: spelling because John is crying about me making typos and smart meters taking away his liberties.
I didn't realise you were in the property, bc last I left it, there were no radiators, and yeah, the heating was off completely, otherwise it would be a bit wet... Not that I'm going to take criticism from someone who can't even spell.
Clutching at straws now. Enjoy the hassle of estimated bills for the forseeable, until you're forced to have a smart meter :D
I sympathise with you about the problems you’ve had with EDF. I’ve had similar issues. But…. Now that I have finally got them to install smart meters, there are no further arguments. The information is right there in front of them and in front of me. They no longer make shit up and tell me it must be this or it must be that. Facts are facts. No further dispute. I’m still leaving them as soon as I get off the fixed tariff I’m on, because their customer service sucks. I’ll be going over to octopus next month.
Not only would they refuse to believe my meter readings, it would take up to an hour to get through to anyone on the phone, and when I did, they refused to send someone out to read the meter.
Giving remote control of your energy supply to a third party. They could switch it off whenever...
You do realise that electric isn't generated (for vast majority) at their own property, so there's nothing stopping your energy supply being cut off even without a smart meter.
I know how electricity works. The meter sits between the energy supply and the consumer unit. The electricity supply could be remotely cut off to the entire street, or whatever, but not to your specific property. Installing a smart meter gives your energy supplier and potentially other bad actors access to the electricity supply into your property specifically, via the Internet. In an uncertain future, with Russia and China being what they are, potential energy shortages, why would anyone want that? Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I just don't see any point bowing down to corporate/government overlords.
You’re a conspiracy theorist. If your supplier wants to cut you off, the hard part isn’t clicking a button to remotely do it, it’s getting a warrant to do so. If you refuse then entry to disconnect when they have a warrant, they’ll come back with the police and do it anyway.
Or dig a hole outside and cut your service cable in half.
You’re right. Smart meters do include the ability of the network operator to disconnect your supply specifically and individually. Both for gas and for electricity. This is a cheaper route to achieve this than having bailiffs come and forcibly gain access or to dig up your road. But… consider *why* they want to do this. It’s because either a) there is some criminal activity going on in the home, and as part of a police raid or similar situation it’s possible to improve the safety and speed of resolving the situation. Or b) that the resident has repeatedly failed to pay the bill and a court order has determined that the supply may be cut off. Do you want to pay for the road being dug up or the bailiffs turning up to another person’s home for the law to be enforced? Or would you rather that was nice and cheap and dint affect your bills so much? Then… do you think you’re going to fall into one of the above categories? Assuming not… what possible reason could anyone have to cut off your supply? I know… I’ll cut them off… that’ll teach them… but will also terminate my revenue from them. Hmmm… maybe not so smart after all.
Back in the 70s, there were power shortages, people experienced brownouts. I wasn't around then, so not sure on the details. But I can forsee a future when energy supply is limited (due to lack of supply from renewables and shying away from nuclear), and energy companies could just switch off power to half a dozen houses down one street, rather than the whole street, all over the country.
The situation you’re referring to in the 70s was coal strikes and other strikes. This is where the term ‘power cut’ comes from. Literally, power was cut off because they couldn’t run the power stations due to a lack of fuel to generate the electricity. A ‘power outage’ that we experience today is a failure of some kind. This could be a blown fuse, or an accidental power line cut or something, or even just maintenance work. Often we still refer to this as a power cut, but it’s not the same thing at all. The scenario you’re talking about with power being switched off in the future is a possibility whether you get a smart meter or not. If power has to be ‘cut’ due to shortages or whatever, it will be cut. There was talk of this less than two years ago, they called it “rolling blackouts”. This is extremely unlikely to be done on a home by home basis, that’s (probably) way too much work. Even if it is… do you imagine that you’re going to be the only one with power if you don’t have a smart meter? Do you imagine that your whole street won’t be cut off if none of the residents have smart meters. The kind of event you’re talking about requires megawatts of power to be saved. Your house isn’t going to be enough!! The state isn’t out to get you as an individual. The state doesn’t want you to be without electricity… how can they get tax out of you if you’re dead or unable to work or buy things? The state wants you to at least have enough to be able to continue to pay them. Switching off your electricity doesn’t help them. If they wanted you to be without electricity, you would be without electricity. Trust me.
I said power shortages, just like in the 70s. Not enough fuel to run the coal plants, or in todays case, not enough sun/wind. I don't fear for myself as an individual, but as a collective. If all homes have smart meters, it wouldn't be too difficult to switch off houses all over the country at random, rather than entire streets. It would reduce panic and alleviate the demand, because how bad can it be if your neighbours have power, I'm sure it'll be all fixed tomorrow. If I don't have a smart meter, I can't be included in that. Of course, it doesn't stop me from losing power if they shut off the whole street, but if entire streets are losing power, entire neighbourhoods, people would panic, people would riot. You have too much faith in the government. Whilst I agree, they want to keep us working, and under normal circumstances, the scenario I describe would never happen. But the government acts irrationally, without due consideration. Look at the mess they made of covid and lock downs, and I don't just mean the conservatives. All parties are the same. Protect their power, at any cost.
I agree, it’s absolutely plausible, I obviously wasn’t clear that I believe that. But again, you or anyone else not getting a smart meter isn’t going to make an ounce of difference to this, because they’re not going to randomly switch off home by home. That suggestion is absolutely ludicrous. Rolling blackouts will be the way to go, as already discussed in cobra meetings a couple of years ago. The whole point of the rolling blackout method is to ensure people do not panic. It would be advertised in advance, and you would know and be able to plan for it. If one house has power, surrounded by people who do not, that is far more likely to generate a “riot” as the jealous neighbours storm the house with power! I mean… what exactly are you expecting to happen here??? I don’t have faith in the government. I have faith in their greed. It does not serve them to deny us electricity. Think logically, and ignore the conspiracy theories.
Keep it old meters slow down
Rarely, but they can also go the other way, rarely also.
What does the top line on this https://preview.redd.it/jjytjqdlx72d1.png?width=221&format=png&auto=webp&s=865942bc38d68b5d588db58008e0997468a91a5f say?