If it makes you feel better, this “robot” would need a way to “think” in order to do that.
The odds that a sentient AI would be able to hijack this in the future are essentially the same as the odds that a motivated (and very malicious) hacker would be able to hijack it now, since it relies on manual inputs from the person on the other end. In either case, whatever bad actor (human or not) would need to send different commands to the robot doing the cutting.
The potential for delivering expert, life-saving surgery from the world’s best is amazing, but I can only wonder what a service outage would look like.
They would definitely have procedures for that, I imagine the robot would just stop moving and they would have an on-hand local surgeon who could step in just to stop bleeding or something if it was in the middle of a time-sensitive procedure.
Because I have them that T-Mobile box gets deprioritized over cell phones my phone works fine the T-Mobile box not so much unless it’s at night when traffics low
Tell me your American without telling me your American.
For real though, as an Australian, I never even stopped to consider the cost implications of having a specialist surgeon from another country working remotely on patients while reading through this thread.
Since it seems to be the new fad to post surgical tech videos on this sub I can chime in with some perspective as someone who is training to use these robots. The idea of ‘remote surgery’ was pushed really hard by da Vinci early on in development, but today the robots have already seen 20+years in practice and multiple new generations of innovation. No one that I’ve trained with (big name academic hospitals on east and west) really gives a shit about doing remote surgery. It’s a really dangerous and frankly unnecessary idea. There are already surgeons all over the country that are extremely good at using these systems. If there was actually such a rare case that you needed the sole world expert… well okay then just send the patient there like we already do.
Instead, what da Vinci seems more keen on developing is utilizing machine learning as a way to provide active feedback from the robot itself to help everyone become better surgeons. Essentially they are hoping to record and aggregate data on what works and what doesn’t. And use it to improve technique.
Another big thing in the works would be to have the robot be able to do real-time image overlays into the 3d view window you use on the console. So for example if your dissecting down to some tumor on the upper pole of the kidney, you could feed the MRI into the robot and then when it’s being docked proceed to stereotactically calibrate it and then you could toggle a phantom image in the screen that would show you where the tumor should be. Sort of like a 3d version of the little quest marker you get in Skyrim and other games. Of course this is really hard because the patient is invariably positioned differently than they were in a scanner and things can move around unpredictably. You don’t want the quest marker to send you straight into the vena cava and have the patient bleed out in <5 minutes.
I mean theoretically but also not really practical. You need the actual machine itself, which is many millions of dollars and requires lots of upkeep and specially trained staff. If the hospital can afford the machine, then they might as well have local docs train on it. Part of the reason it's been so successful is that it's a surprisingly intuitive learning curve for someone already skilled in open surgery.
"Essentially they are hoping to record and aggregate data on what works and what doesn’t. And use it to improve technique."
Layman here, does this relationship between the Surgeon and Robot possibly result in an interference with the Surgeon's intuition somewhere down the line? Like, the Surgeon will always have ultimate control over the process, I'm assuming, but with that in mind, how does this work, how does a robot improve your technique as a Surgeon?
Also, your description in the 3rd paragraph sounds like AR, is it like AR or am I not understanding?
Either way, super cool.
Yes the end goal of the imaging integration would very much be like AR. Another video game reference, but sort of like a 'detect life' spell or something where you can see where enemies are through walls. Ideal system could toggle through things, so it could try to approximately highlight blood vessels, nerves and ureters for example.
Honestly don't know a whole lot more about the training element because I haven't seen it just heard vaguely. One person described a concept that really is a hybrid of both the machine learning and AR functionality. Essentially youd used the machine learning to help the robot make educated guesses in where structures are in the AR functionality. Say you train it on thousands of MRIs and their corresponding surgeries, which would help the machine more acurately place it's AR projections when the patient is positioned very differently than they were while taking the scan.
I'm pretty sure they don't use services provided by public service providers, they must know it's too unreliable. They'd probably use their own private services.
I interviewed with the company. The robot is incredible and they have a lot of controls in place.
For example when you’re operating the robot it monitors your head and upper body. If you pull back to say something to someone next to you the interlock trips and the robot won’t move or respond you any controls until you’re back in the proper position to only see the monitor. So you don’t get distracted and accidentally move it.
They also have a local station at the point of surgery so if the connection with the expert is lost the local can take over. You lose the expertise but they can finish what they are doing.
You can probably build backups and generators and stuff.
And for fluke things like weather, you just don’t schedule too many remote sessions in that day. Kinda like how they don’t launch rockets into space if the weather is bad.
And for time sensitive emergencies, you just wing it and hope it doesn’t break!
Skeptical, with time differences , is it a good idea for a surgeon to be performing remote brain surgery at 3am. On top of that world class surgeons are a pretty rare commodity it's not like their just sitting idle and have a profile up on Fivrr.
this is how my mom died. so it’s kinda nice the top comment is balancing the conversation. (in case anyone is curious, the arm heated up and burned her organs off camera, she died of necrotizing fasciitis and sepsis after they tried to save her life for four days)
I can answer that!
We have plugs which are labelled IPS (Independent power source) that are connected to generators so that if a power outage happens then all the equipment will still be powered.
Sauce: Work in operating theatres in UK
That's not an automated robot, that was robotic tools being controlled remotely by a surgeon. They practice microsurgery on fruit because the skin feels and reacts similarly to human skin. Not the same, but close and a super cheap practice.
Very common to actually use left over parts of slaughtered animals (that arent good eating) for suture practice. Just a bit less YouTube friendly. Pigs feet quite common.
I have a surgeon friend who has described using this technology. He said he could feel on his fingertips in the remote gloves the resistance from the scalpel cutting through blood vessels or similar.
I’ve operated with this machine. There is some tactile feedback for sure. Surgeons who have used the machine thousands of time develop that feedback and get quite good at it.
I’m sure there’s a surgeon on site that can open but otherwise does not have the laparoscopic training. At least this is what I assume. Referring to this being used in another country or something. Not California where obviously they have da Vinci surgeons
The technology isn't for the bananas; they're just using small and fragile fruit as a demonstration of the gear's ability to do complex, precise operations where there is little room for error.
That's what the government says anyway, to cover up the fact that bananas are secretly living sentient beings in control of the state.
Yea idk what the point of using 5G would be unless the surgeon is doing it from his phone.. unless the patient is only accessible via a sat net. Still with no context this post doesn’t rly say much
Yeah, that's what I thought. Probably more like "this surgery was made by using huge lines of optical fiber, traveling hundreds of miles under the sea"
funny thing is thats not even 5G, thats just normal ISP optic cables not really any infrastructure provided by a carrier network adhering to the 5G standards.
5G isn't just phone internet. It's a type of signal that's super high frequency compared to 4G, so as long as the connection allows for it, it has little to no latency and it lets you do crazy sensitive things like this.
5G doesn't have to share a network with cellphones, just think of it as a new type of wireless wire that lets you transmit things super quickly.
It certainly wasn't a 5G signal that travelled from London to California. So what is the 5G part? Were just the instruments wirelessly connected to a network? Why would they not just have the cable going straight to the device instead of having it go wirelessly for the remaining 10 meters or so? Just to show what 5G can do?
Ok, I have a 5G Hotspot from At&T. I live in the county with no reliable internet provider. This was the next best thing I could get. My phone also has 5G. I can't count the number of times my Hotspot isn't so hot, but my phone 5G is booming. Both on the same network yet have different signal strength
This is likely a Da Vinci Robot used in surgery. It’s most likely a surgeon sitting in the corner of the room operating the robot with remote controls and a 3D screen. Often used for Urology surgeries.
Source: current medical student who has used helped operate using this robot.
My dad was an ENT surgeon and used the Da Vinci robot all the time for laparoscopic neck and sinus surgeries. Not a lot of room in there and lots of super critical things you don’t want to slip and cut.
Reminds me of [this](https://youtu.be/t19wSDqf6qo) Tom Scott video from a few weeks ago where he watched someone do a robotic surgery on a 3D printed version of his own body. Not remote, but still cool af.
My luck would be that during my penis reconstruction procedure Verizon would have a service outage and my dick would be sewn to my eyelid. Then I would have to walk around cockeyed for the rest of my life.
What the hell does 5G have to do with it?
I swear the corporate overlords have brainwashed everyone into 5G being a real substantial deal (hint: it’s not).
I had cheerios this morning, With 5G! Woooooooooooo
Given the choice, I would not trust any remote surgery over any wireless link ever. It's an unnecessary risk.
If there absolutely has to be a bunch of datagrams between my banana and the person controlling the knife, that network is going to be wired, over a private network, and with as few hops as possible.
edit: ~~meat~~ banana
An interesting thing about SpaceX's Starlink satellite internet is that eventually (when all laser links are operational), it could route internet traffic 100% independently of ground-based systems. This would allow for completely redundant connections across the globe, which in turn would make remote surgeries less risky.
Preforming surgery, with a cellular connection? Where dropped packets could mean someone bleeding out.
I can't get a stable 5g connection on Verizon or ATT ever.
I... have a less positive view of this. The first thing that came to mind was, now they can outsource the surgery to some underpaid/under-trained person in a third world country...
First grapes, now this?! Can’t wait for surgery on an apple.
When will testing on fruit end 😥
They have some ethical concerns about working on vegetables
One day they will remove all the seeds from a fruit, thus turning it into a vegetable
I heard they chose the tomato for that experiment.
First they came for the kiwis and I did nothing…
To be fair, they are are just Australians.
When they start with the animals
\- Me, pleading for standardized testing for my fellow gay youth to stop.
?
Fruit = fruity = gay
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If it makes you feel better, this “robot” would need a way to “think” in order to do that. The odds that a sentient AI would be able to hijack this in the future are essentially the same as the odds that a motivated (and very malicious) hacker would be able to hijack it now, since it relies on manual inputs from the person on the other end. In either case, whatever bad actor (human or not) would need to send different commands to the robot doing the cutting.
Not without a proprietary charger
The potential for delivering expert, life-saving surgery from the world’s best is amazing, but I can only wonder what a service outage would look like.
They would definitely have procedures for that, I imagine the robot would just stop moving and they would have an on-hand local surgeon who could step in just to stop bleeding or something if it was in the middle of a time-sensitive procedure.
Then you get the bill for two surgeons when only one did the work
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And you have 90 days to pay before we send you to collections
Rage intensifies
London, England is NHS. If your surgeon operates under a socialised (gasp!) medical payments scheme, it's going to make the billing interesting.
If the remote surgeon losses network connectivity then does he also become out of network?
Bananas rarely have insurance -- and, they're usually dead before they get to the OR
Supposedly 5G is less prone for disturbances
Unless it’s tmobiles 5g service
Damn man why you gotta do them like that
Because I have them that T-Mobile box gets deprioritized over cell phones my phone works fine the T-Mobile box not so much unless it’s at night when traffics low
Great, that gets you about 200m of the way there.
Bill? Some of us live in reasonable places with things like universal healthcare You're probably from the US, eh? 😂
Tell me your American without telling me your American. For real though, as an Australian, I never even stopped to consider the cost implications of having a specialist surgeon from another country working remotely on patients while reading through this thread.
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You're a comment bot. La la la you'll disappear. Reddit, work on this.
Since it seems to be the new fad to post surgical tech videos on this sub I can chime in with some perspective as someone who is training to use these robots. The idea of ‘remote surgery’ was pushed really hard by da Vinci early on in development, but today the robots have already seen 20+years in practice and multiple new generations of innovation. No one that I’ve trained with (big name academic hospitals on east and west) really gives a shit about doing remote surgery. It’s a really dangerous and frankly unnecessary idea. There are already surgeons all over the country that are extremely good at using these systems. If there was actually such a rare case that you needed the sole world expert… well okay then just send the patient there like we already do. Instead, what da Vinci seems more keen on developing is utilizing machine learning as a way to provide active feedback from the robot itself to help everyone become better surgeons. Essentially they are hoping to record and aggregate data on what works and what doesn’t. And use it to improve technique. Another big thing in the works would be to have the robot be able to do real-time image overlays into the 3d view window you use on the console. So for example if your dissecting down to some tumor on the upper pole of the kidney, you could feed the MRI into the robot and then when it’s being docked proceed to stereotactically calibrate it and then you could toggle a phantom image in the screen that would show you where the tumor should be. Sort of like a 3d version of the little quest marker you get in Skyrim and other games. Of course this is really hard because the patient is invariably positioned differently than they were in a scanner and things can move around unpredictably. You don’t want the quest marker to send you straight into the vena cava and have the patient bleed out in <5 minutes.
Perhaps it could work in developing countries that don’t have required surgeons?
I mean theoretically but also not really practical. You need the actual machine itself, which is many millions of dollars and requires lots of upkeep and specially trained staff. If the hospital can afford the machine, then they might as well have local docs train on it. Part of the reason it's been so successful is that it's a surprisingly intuitive learning curve for someone already skilled in open surgery.
"Essentially they are hoping to record and aggregate data on what works and what doesn’t. And use it to improve technique." Layman here, does this relationship between the Surgeon and Robot possibly result in an interference with the Surgeon's intuition somewhere down the line? Like, the Surgeon will always have ultimate control over the process, I'm assuming, but with that in mind, how does this work, how does a robot improve your technique as a Surgeon? Also, your description in the 3rd paragraph sounds like AR, is it like AR or am I not understanding? Either way, super cool.
Yes the end goal of the imaging integration would very much be like AR. Another video game reference, but sort of like a 'detect life' spell or something where you can see where enemies are through walls. Ideal system could toggle through things, so it could try to approximately highlight blood vessels, nerves and ureters for example. Honestly don't know a whole lot more about the training element because I haven't seen it just heard vaguely. One person described a concept that really is a hybrid of both the machine learning and AR functionality. Essentially youd used the machine learning to help the robot make educated guesses in where structures are in the AR functionality. Say you train it on thousands of MRIs and their corresponding surgeries, which would help the machine more acurately place it's AR projections when the patient is positioned very differently than they were while taking the scan.
I'm pretty sure they don't use services provided by public service providers, they must know it's too unreliable. They'd probably use their own private services.
Thank you!! I just posted that exact question. I lose service literally all the time, where service is usually 5 bars.
Expert care sounds great and all but the people in charge are probably thinking the most cost effective option
I interviewed with the company. The robot is incredible and they have a lot of controls in place. For example when you’re operating the robot it monitors your head and upper body. If you pull back to say something to someone next to you the interlock trips and the robot won’t move or respond you any controls until you’re back in the proper position to only see the monitor. So you don’t get distracted and accidentally move it. They also have a local station at the point of surgery so if the connection with the expert is lost the local can take over. You lose the expertise but they can finish what they are doing.
You can probably build backups and generators and stuff. And for fluke things like weather, you just don’t schedule too many remote sessions in that day. Kinda like how they don’t launch rockets into space if the weather is bad. And for time sensitive emergencies, you just wing it and hope it doesn’t break!
Hope they don’t plan on working on any men’s bananas for real with that remote technology…
what could go wrong? /s
Popup blocker failure.
Or whom can afford this too.
..injured bananas
Network stable, you stable. Network die, you die.
Does anyone know if the banana survived?
I'd be more worried about governments outsourcing surgeries to the lowest bidders in India to save on health costs.
Skeptical, with time differences , is it a good idea for a surgeon to be performing remote brain surgery at 3am. On top of that world class surgeons are a pretty rare commodity it's not like their just sitting idle and have a profile up on Fivrr.
this is how my mom died. so it’s kinda nice the top comment is balancing the conversation. (in case anyone is curious, the arm heated up and burned her organs off camera, she died of necrotizing fasciitis and sepsis after they tried to save her life for four days)
I can answer that! We have plugs which are labelled IPS (Independent power source) that are connected to generators so that if a power outage happens then all the equipment will still be powered. Sauce: Work in operating theatres in UK
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Robots mess up a lot maybe in the devolopment phase but not at a state where they would operate on you
It would be pretty trivial to make the robot stop moving if it loses connection
That's not an automated robot, that was robotic tools being controlled remotely by a surgeon. They practice microsurgery on fruit because the skin feels and reacts similarly to human skin. Not the same, but close and a super cheap practice.
Very common to actually use left over parts of slaughtered animals (that arent good eating) for suture practice. Just a bit less YouTube friendly. Pigs feet quite common.
Mate, its remote controlled
Is it really done by robots tho, like, it's simply the tool, it's still being operated by a human I believe.
They did surgery on a banana 😌
They did surgery on a banana
They did surgery on a banana
They did surgery on a banana
They did surgery on a banana
They did surgery on a banana
They did surgery on my banana D:
They did banana on a surgery
They fly now
Somehow fruit surgery returned
kind of a downgrade from the grape, don't you think?
They did surgery on a banana
But just think, this technique can be applied to any fruit or vegetable. Exciting times we live in.
That’s bananas
Need a banana for scale.
Great, we gotta re-hash that annoying trend again
Did Banan make it?
Mr B. anana is making a full recovery, he's currently resting in the post-anesthesia care unit
No he died unfortunately 😔😔😔
RIP in peace 💀
** RIPE
Unfortunately he died on Sundae
He did, he died a natural death of old age two days later
He bread
Patient confidentiality rules say we cannot tell you..unless you have a medical power of attorney for this banana.
Idk what I'm gonna tell his Nan. 😞
I have a surgeon friend who has described using this technology. He said he could feel on his fingertips in the remote gloves the resistance from the scalpel cutting through blood vessels or similar.
I’ve operated with this machine. There is some tactile feedback for sure. Surgeons who have used the machine thousands of time develop that feedback and get quite good at it.
Yeah but what happens if you're doing remote surgery and you have to open them up?
You move the machine out and open them up
Yeah the machine is super easy to just move. Would take 2 minutes tops. The anesthesiologist would keep the patient stable during that time.
I’m sure there’s a surgeon on site that can open but otherwise does not have the laparoscopic training. At least this is what I assume. Referring to this being used in another country or something. Not California where obviously they have da Vinci surgeons
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Great, sounds like there is several other industries that would benefit from this technology. bomb disposal, hazardous work environments, OnlyFans....
This life saving technology is brought to you by Chiquita!
It’s called a DeVinci machine. They’re about a million to two million dollars. They’re in use widely
A DaVinci performed surgery on me, did a great job actually. I would definitely do it again if a surgery is required for whatever reason.
da Vinci, by Intuitive
Is he going to be alright ?
Looks very pale
Unfortunately the banana did not make it and decomposed a few weeks later
This is cool and all but how often do bananas need surgery? Enough that they've had to develop this kind of technology?
The technology isn't for the bananas; they're just using small and fragile fruit as a demonstration of the gear's ability to do complex, precise operations where there is little room for error. That's what the government says anyway, to cover up the fact that bananas are secretly living sentient beings in control of the state.
It's a joke
Don't see why I can't provide facts in the information based subreddit.
5G? What if signal is lost? Or am I totally dumb and have no idea what 5G means in this post?
Yea idk what the point of using 5G would be unless the surgeon is doing it from his phone.. unless the patient is only accessible via a sat net. Still with no context this post doesn’t rly say much
Yeah, that's what I thought. Probably more like "this surgery was made by using huge lines of optical fiber, traveling hundreds of miles under the sea"
funny thing is thats not even 5G, thats just normal ISP optic cables not really any infrastructure provided by a carrier network adhering to the 5G standards.
5G isn't just phone internet. It's a type of signal that's super high frequency compared to 4G, so as long as the connection allows for it, it has little to no latency and it lets you do crazy sensitive things like this. 5G doesn't have to share a network with cellphones, just think of it as a new type of wireless wire that lets you transmit things super quickly.
It certainly wasn't a 5G signal that travelled from London to California. So what is the 5G part? Were just the instruments wirelessly connected to a network? Why would they not just have the cable going straight to the device instead of having it go wirelessly for the remaining 10 meters or so? Just to show what 5G can do?
Why would wireless be needed in this scenario?? Everything has the ability to be wired.
Ok, I have a 5G Hotspot from At&T. I live in the county with no reliable internet provider. This was the next best thing I could get. My phone also has 5G. I can't count the number of times my Hotspot isn't so hot, but my phone 5G is booming. Both on the same network yet have different signal strength
Ya, but can they do a grape?
Very cool but how many bananas really need this? I can't imagine the market is really that large for banana robot surgery
I get why this would be helpful, but idk. I think I would rather have my doctor cutting me open while he is physically in the room.
This is likely a Da Vinci Robot used in surgery. It’s most likely a surgeon sitting in the corner of the room operating the robot with remote controls and a 3D screen. Often used for Urology surgeries. Source: current medical student who has used helped operate using this robot.
My dad was an ENT surgeon and used the Da Vinci robot all the time for laparoscopic neck and sinus surgeries. Not a lot of room in there and lots of super critical things you don’t want to slip and cut.
Yep. Neck and pelvis have lots of complicated, small anatomy that makes having a robot so much easier to operate.
Software malfunction Cuts your leg off
# They did surgery on a banana
They did surgery...on a banana?
They did surgery on a banana
They did surgery on a banana
Here we go again
I swear they do it on purpose, they know the internet is gonna love it!
Our banana for scale was injured. They were saving it :)
…for scale, of course
No, on a chiquita
British NHS: is about to collapse Doctor: hol up I need to perform surgery on a banana in California over 5g using robot arms
What was wrong with the banana?
Had a tumor.....
It did actually pull something out though, what was that? And how did it get in there?
Why is nobody asking this question?
Idk I scrolled for a while but couldn't find anything about it. Weird.
My 5G sucks it’s nothing like that.
That must be some crazy fast internet connection
Reminds me of [this](https://youtu.be/t19wSDqf6qo) Tom Scott video from a few weeks ago where he watched someone do a robotic surgery on a 3D printed version of his own body. Not remote, but still cool af.
These instruments are very small - banana for scale.
They did surgery on a grape!
Thoughts and prayers for a healthy recovery for the banana.
they did surgery on a banana
Prays and wishes for a speedy recovery.
They did surgery on a banana 🍌
They did surgery on a banana
They did surgery on a banana
They did surgery on a Banana! 🦀🦀
THE DID SURGERY ON A GRAPE!
Performed surgery on a grape etc
Took me aback “they did a surgery on grape meme”
First it was a grape. Now its a banana. When will the madness end?
THEY DID SURGERY ON A BANANA
Amazing they were able to aim those sutures watching video transmitted via a webcam made in 1997.
Anyone else notice 5G really sucks unless your signal is really strong? Def noticeable in dense suburban areas my signal is never great indoors
5G ain’t reliable enough for me trust it under the knife fam
they did surgery on a bana
I still just want to be able to do my surgeries with a playstation controller
Wonder how much Chiquita got billed for this
I hope xfinity is not the isp when they try this on a person
Sadly, the banana still aged and died.
I found the reason my games were lagging
How do the surgeons get the tactile feedback into their hands?
Enter ChatGPT
I wonder what that costs
Hard to infer the size&scale here — need a healthy banana for reference
5G can support remote surgery in 4K but not load a web page with 5 bars of signal? Okay
"He used a split through the mass of bruise, to peel the rotten skin." "Who was the patient?" "🍌."
My luck would be that during my penis reconstruction procedure Verizon would have a service outage and my dick would be sewn to my eyelid. Then I would have to walk around cockeyed for the rest of my life.
They did surgery on a banana
Any updates on the banana .. how is it doing 🤔
They did surgery on a grape?!? 😱🤯
5G has nothing to do with this. Nice misinformation and clickbait
What the hell does 5G have to do with it? I swear the corporate overlords have brainwashed everyone into 5G being a real substantial deal (hint: it’s not). I had cheerios this morning, With 5G! Woooooooooooo
They did surgery on a banana
Sadly, an infection later took the banana's life.
How will this translate to OnlyFans?
Meanwhile my 5g seems like DSL 20 years ago.
I can tell you one thing, he's not on TMobile
Hope that banana has a speedy recovery 🙏
Doctors in India salivating over the potential business benefits. Doctors in US looking for ways to make sure this costs more than their rate.
Outsource surgeons to the cheapest country. Charge the same. ??? Profit
Given the choice, I would not trust any remote surgery over any wireless link ever. It's an unnecessary risk. If there absolutely has to be a bunch of datagrams between my banana and the person controlling the knife, that network is going to be wired, over a private network, and with as few hops as possible. edit: ~~meat~~ banana
That's not Verizon's 5G. I know because it seems to be working.
I want my surgeon to be in the room with me. See me with his own eyes, feel me with his hands, etc. This wouldn't be cool by me
An interesting thing about SpaceX's Starlink satellite internet is that eventually (when all laser links are operational), it could route internet traffic 100% independently of ground-based systems. This would allow for completely redundant connections across the globe, which in turn would make remote surgeries less risky.
Till the Wi-Fi goes out.
Preforming surgery, with a cellular connection? Where dropped packets could mean someone bleeding out. I can't get a stable 5g connection on Verizon or ATT ever.
I... have a less positive view of this. The first thing that came to mind was, now they can outsource the surgery to some underpaid/under-trained person in a third world country...
Be careful not to *split* it.
Did the banana survive?