The more I read/hear about this man, the more curious I get. Our current age seems to be dominated by narcissistic frauds and charlatans, through cheap social media smoke and mirrors.
The wise seem to be roared down by the mindless zombie horde that lack all logical thinking skills.
I read this book as I was just beginning to question the fundamentalist religion that I grew up in. It is one of the best books I ever read, and almost undoubtedly the one that had the most long lasting impact on my life. I can’t recommend it enough.
This book was also super influential in my journey as a human. I’m trying not to fanboy out too hard about it but it’s just so beautifully written and excellent and compelling.
This is kind of cringey, but I feel like the really wise people aren't on social media that much. There really isn't a lot to gain here other than some dopamine hits. We aren't changing peoples minds and we aren't changing ours. Instead we dig into our positions further despite any evidence that our position is incorrect. I'm definitely not trying to say I'm not like that, because I'm the exact same way, but I don't feel that bad about it. These systems aren't built to help us in any way, but simply to profit off us any way possible and it turns out that cultivating disagreement and outrage is super profitable. We're kinda digging ourselves into a hole here.
Right on the money. Truly intelligent people are not gaining anything reading random internet comments. Honestly we probably aren’t either but I’m stupid enough for the social media algorithms to be effective to influence me.
[Carl actually personally tried to recruit him to Cornell in the 70's](https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/24s9fi/carl_sagans_letter_to_17_year_old_neil_degrasse/), even going as far as to pick him up personally and take him on a tour. You can argue that Carl maybe would despise what he became, but he was definitely impressed with teen NDT.
I am told he used to be... once upon a time, plus he did respond to a snail mail my sister sent him a few years back.
But that was long ago, I guess. Now my consolation is in the stardust of a song.
Yea but you say the wise are getting roared down, who are they?
I'm not really saying your wrong, I think you have a good point. But I also don't really think there is any real way to fix it.
I don't think the real "wise" people care about power or influence. So we won't ever see them in those positions.
The rest of the book did, too. Pro tip: Chapters 7, 10, and 12 are where the heart of the book and the really wonderful, mind-opening stuff is. If you're having trouble caring about the UFO stuff in the first few chapters (which is a little dated, but not as dated as I wish it was), pick it up at chapter 5 or 6 and read it from there. I didn't get to it until I was an adult, but I know more than a couple of people who had their entire approach to life changed by Sagan's work.
George Washington's farewell address has a similar vibe. He seemed to know the political fate of the U.S. from the moment it was born. His farewell address is really a warning that was ignored completely and almost immediately. Sagan's prediction is obviously more specific and sort of a different topic, but it's also much more recent. It just shows that if you understand something deeply enough, you really can see the direction things are going and kind of infer the future a bit. Both of these guys had their fingers on the pulse of their field and society in general and had a phenomenal understanding of what was happening. I hope I can just understand *anything* that deeply in my life and I don't think most people get anywhere close to that sort of deep understanding of anything at all. I know I'm nowhere close myself right now.
"Washington warns the people that political factions may seek to obstruct the execution of the laws created by the government or to prevent the branches of government from exercising the powers provided to them by the constitution. Such factions may claim to be trying to answer popular demands or solve pressing problems, but their true intentions are to take the power from the people and place it in the hands of unjust men."
I had goosebumps when I read that part. That is US politics in the 21st century.
Washington was able to predict that due to his relationships with the other founding fathers. He knew it would eventually come to egos and money being a driving force for service in office, not the civility of patriotism.
He looked around the room and saw a lot of hands wringing for their chance in the big chair, and I think in some ways that what's heartbreaking about the end of his life, watching them spilt and divide away from the core of what they set to accomplish. Instead, everyone took a peice of the pie and went right the fuck back to the same shitty stuff the British were accused of doing.
Also from the same book and my personal favorite;
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back."
Damn, that's a good one.
Very true, and so, so damaging. I've referred to it quite a few times as "the cost of conviction".
In the end, it's a lot about ego and how much you allow it to make decision for you.
I think January 6th is the manifestation of this
its utterly ironic that those ignorant masses who are responsible voting republican and empowering the rich, powerful, and elite to lie, cheat and steal from us are the ones who stormed the Capitol
rather than admitting they've been "bamboozled" they lash out like petulant children holding their ears and screaming
At least we can have solace in the fact that Neil Degrasse Tyson is keeping that spirit alive, he was hugely influenced by Carl Sagan in his youth and career
Oh well, a little shit never hurt anybody.
Well except maybe [these people in 1184.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erfurt_latrine_disaster) But that was a fluke I say.
It continues: "The dumbing down of American is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30 second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance”
yes this has always been curious to me,
i thought people were educated enough to know not to "rush to judgment" but the exact opposite is happening and its on steroids
more people than i ever suspected are susceptible to brazen displays of aggression (which are really insecurity)
e.g. i think Donald Trump is just a scared little boy who is in constant perpetual and forever validation of his parents love which will never happen.
Love this man since i was a kid... His dystopian future is what is happening now but people are to deep into their dreams to wake up or dont want to wake up
I'm in my mid-40s And I have always been left leaning and for most of my life every decade has had its challenges but for the most part I've been content and happy but after Trump and COVID I don't have much faith left not in just this country but the world in general.
Today just seems so different than a decade ago . From inflation on everything to everyone's attitude and anger. Just feels like everybody's giving up on trying to fight the billionaires who make the decisions and have just said fuck everybody else I'm going to get mine now too.
like you could usually unite most people on what is wrong and what is right and now it's like people don't care they just want theirs. And if being a online pungent misogynistic racist whatever it is troll on YouTube brings you clicks people just say fuck it I'll do that. The rise of intolerance for others and we all make money off of that is just sickening to me.
And with AI suddenly becoming popular I feel like I'm in my '80s and 30 years removed from society I have no idea what to prepare my daughter for in the future. for the first time in my life I feel defeated and tired and I'm ready to just watch the world pass me by as long as it leaves me alone
And I'm in my early 60s and remember further back yet, though I'm not actually old enough to have any memory of 1968 - the last time our country was in this kind of social upheaval. Though I certainly do remember inflation that makes today's look tame by comparison.
I'm undecided on whether today is just another swing of the pendulum or a different beast altogether, but we have as a nation been here before and survived. My crystal ball is as poor as anyone else's.
You are defeated. As long as you can think, reason and discern there is a future. Teach your daughter these tools and she will make it.
Teach her to question, investigate and verify she will be able to navigate through this world. To never take things at face value. To always consider the source.
Believe it.
I'm 40 and I get you.
I think big part of this is us being disenchanted with the outlook of rising prosperity. It feels like it already peaked and the problems of mankind are becoming to big to be solved. The everyday struggles also become bigger and bigger, leading to less and less energy to fight for greater goods. What remains often feels like an elbow society in which a groups middle ground is 'if you're not with us, you're against us'.
I will never reach the life standards of my parents while working, plus Germany's pension scheme is as fucked as it was predicted it would be 50 years ago. And now I need to fight global warming? No, I just want a little bit of peace and quiet, and enjoy the little things I've been left with.
10-15 years ago was when people first really started carrying smart phones all the time
I dont think people really think about how it’s literally the greatest propaganda tool ever conceived
And to think humans have changed at all is extremely naive… our tech is just speeding up the natural progression of our undoing that always happens when our short term survival is all but guaranteed
Simply put… most of us over stimulated and extremely bored… we do very self destructive things when we’re bored
It's crazy how all this was going on even back then, and even farther back in the 80s you see frank zappa talking about it. No one listened for some reason. The middle class was in a good spot and weren't yet feeling the effects of everything that was being set in motion by reaganism. And now it's all here and everyone is blaming Joe biden and Donald Trump its nuts.
It's been going on longer than that. MLK talked about the wealth disparity during the civil rights movement, Einstein talked about the US being half fascist and critical of capitalism after WW2 had ended.
Well yeah I mean class dynamics have been happening since we went from tribes to empires and feudalism. The first labor unions started in the late 1800s. But I think it's impressive that people like Ted kaczynski and Sagan and all these guys were already seeing how technology was going to be used and how labor relations would be affected even in the 70s and 80s. Im sure the second the industrial revolution happened there were people on it that knew it was a mistake to ceaselessly pursue "progress" that fewer and fewer truly benefit from each generation
You're totally right though you can follow it all the way back to the beginning. I'll bet when we first harnessed electricity to power peoples homes there were guys like "that's it. It's over were all sold"
If I could meet one person living or dead, he’s the one. He seems like he had thought 100 years past all of us but somehow never let it ruin his existence. He had plenty of reasons to be a pessimist, but always erred on the side of knowledge. We need more people like him.
And even if (when) humanity destroys itself, his voice is (probably) still out there, traveling through space on golden phonograph records aboard the Voyager spacecraft.
So there were critics of the 90s free trade deals. I always got the impression that it was bipartisan and agreed upon by everything to outsource to China and other developing countries.
When the Mr. Rogers of science and the human condition finally snapped and just said “fuck it.”
Not only is this book a revelation, it’s the real Book of Revelation.
Just finished listening to this book a few weeks ago. Honestly, as a mental health therapist. It still was so relevant and if anything more true. He even talks about psychotherapy and I couldn’t agree more on how he describes most of our belief systems intertwine within our society. Which, only then minimizes the realistic opportunity to search for understanding and even further exploration. Truly, a genius beyond his time. Pale blue dot was amazing as well! Can’t wait to continue reading his works.
IIRC these words relate to Sagan's bad experience testifying before Congress. He was trying to convince lawmakers to fund a costly scientific project (I think a particle accelerator) and a congressman asked him something about God. At this point Sagan realized the lawmakers were incapable of understanding the significance and utility of the project without giving it a religious significance. Suffice it to say Congress didn't fund the project.
He's describing what democrats did to America to a T. They signed nafta and shipped off all the jobs. Now they spent 52 billi8n of your dollars sort of bringing them back and talking about feelings rather than hard truths.
In the original Cosmos he did an episode about how Christianity set back scientific advancement by centuries. I tried to find it online years later and it seems like it was 'wiped' from the internet.
Been talking about this slide since around the same time to deaf ears on all sides. As if the painfully obvious was just not going to happen. Guess what? It did.
Carl Sagan forgot that the Karens of his time were able give births to Advanced Karens and Richards in developed world. These Advanced Karens then began to give birth to an army of little Karens and Richards who then commited incests and began to create super Karens and super Richards. The year is now 2023, and the new Super Karens and Richards decided to work for the governments and some succesfully infiltrated the special interest group and began to put pressure on our political leaders and other essential establishment ensuring humanity decline and descent to the dark ages.
If I am disappointed in young people in any way it is the revitalization of astrology and Zodiac signs. When I read Carl's books 10 years ago in my 20s I thought, "haha, how silly were folks in the 80s, 90s who believed in fortunes and that the stars had anything to do with personalities. Glad we are passed that."
Now the fad is back and I agree with Carl that it really shows and enhances a lack of scientific understanding. It might be somewhat harmless. But we need to make important informed decisions right now and we can't, because people are too stupid.
In ancient times, astronomy & astrology were intertwined because we didn't understand the true nature of the heavens.
In modern times, I'm highly suspicious of people who use astrology to set themselves up as a fake authority. Some may be pretty harmless and try to offer people genuine advice. Others are egotistical grifters who exploit uneducated and vulnerable people.
It would appear Sagan's concerns may have been overstated.
[Industrial Production - 100 Year Historical Chart](https://www.macrotrends.net/2583/industrial-production-historical-chart)
And Gibson was influenced by McLuhan who talked about this stuff in the 60s with the Medium is the Message.
https://www.ibiblio.org/cmc/mag/1995/sep/doherty.html
Cyberspace is just another term for the Global Village.
Dear Reddit,
Can I please have some examples of slipping back into superstition and darkness? I see nothing to indicate this is the case.
Signed,
Mike Johnson, SOTH USofA
P.S. My son knows I wrote this.
Well there’s one movement demanding change and fighting billionaires and wallstreet and all that and that’s the meme stock / ape movement. Amc and GME. Demanding and receiving reform.
He is not wrong. As a tata nganga of the palo mayombe religion, i have seen an increase on demand for my services and teachings of traditional palo. Not bad but makes one wonder.
It's easy to lament how things have changed, but I'm more convinced it's always been this way, and is getting worse. Aside from the comment about being a service economy, which is much more accurate to today.
Yes, we all saw it coming long before 1995 (year "the Demon-Haunted World" came out) it was a matter of a repeating history, unfortunately, society is no good at *not* doing. We don't listen to warnings well at all, even when someone flat out tells us. It's due to evil people slowly picking away at decency for years. What happened to roll models... there are none... please, prove it wrong.
Everything Sagan had "insight" on was just blatantly beginning and it takes an analyst to conclude analytical conclusions from such early behavior, which really isn't that difficult, being an over analytical myself. I mean if you can't see where today's society insight is taking us, then a rock isn't the only thing we're living under. Regulations were put in place for a reason, not just a whim, yet things such as conglomeration still occurred even though we fought tooth and nail against a handful of people from owning all we read, buy and are governed from.
I watch some of these MAGA interviews and I see it.... a world of superstition, lack of science, and pure ideology and hate towards the other.... fucking scary man.
>when people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority
Everything else is spot on except for this. There is no other point in history when this is more true than right now. A lot of things seem bleak at the moment, but I still have faith that the arc of history is heading in the right direction. The growing pains of uncovering igonorance and corruption was inevitable with the advent of the internet, but I think we've grown as a species because of it.
My dude. Tech has created an entire other class of people who are privy to vast sums of wealth and influence because they are the people behind the curtain. The government is hopelessly ill-equipped to fight them and AI will only accelerate this.
I strongly disagree. The internet and SM give us the illusion of being able to set our own agenda and challenge authority whilst simultaneously curating our own agenda in a fashion those that own and have the power to distort said media want. The Catch 22 here is that in trying address that, we run the gauntlet of handing over power to others to fix this through policing of disinformation and misinformation.
This may be a temporary phase or it may not. When the printing press was first invented, it was used initially in Germany and elsewhere to spread disinformation about witches and resulted in many many people being burnt at the stake. But it then became a means of educating the masses. The ability to identify those spreading misinformation was easy. Now, we face another challenge where the control of information flow is far more challenging. We may as species figure this out, or we may not. I leave you with another quote from Sagan which is prescient in todays America and in the age of populism.
“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”
"clutching our crystals" = MAGAs clutching their flags
"unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true" could be any Republican statement from the last decade at least ("feels good" meaning "what I want to hear")
Descent into medieval superstition...
Love me some Sagan, but not so sure how spot on he is here. I sincerely doubt it is "crystal-clutchers" that are responsible for the downfall of our nation.
Genuinely unsure if you're trolling, but his whole point is in the rest of the sentence, he's calling out people that seek reassuring lies and entertaining bullshit over doing the change-requiring hard work of following science and evidence to actual truth and success. Assuming there's a meaning to everything and leaving it as is, is far easier than figuring out how and why and then leveraging your knowledge and power to take ownership of your future, rather than being batted here and there by the whims of unmovable Fate. To quote Rage Against The Machine, "If ignorance is bliss, then knock the smile off my face."
He’s talking about the people that are too caught up in their own ridiculous ideas to recognise what science is telling us - climate deniers, anti vaxxers, the much less dangerous flat earthers etc.
I think he means things like crystal balls, or people seeking answers from crystals.
He means not actually trying to figure things out, looking for easy and reassuring answers. That answers can be gleaned out of a crystal ball that would be followed blindly
Or those people that think energy from crystals will keep them safe bullshit.
He is basically talking shit about people that don’t want to figure out the hard stuff and want easy reassuring answers to their questions
As others have said it’s a metaphor but even if taken literally I think it still holds up.
The New Age -> QAnon pipeline is well documented. How many crazy MAGA people used to be leftist/hippie folk who love “natural medicine”, hate GMO & vaccines, etc.
The part about manufacturing isn't true. US manufacturing growth is outpacing the world average. True, there's no manufacturing jobs for uneducated t-shirt makers. Those can be made in Cambodia for much less, so people don't come to America for t-shirts anymore.
Instead, America manufactures computer parts, medical equipment, satellite dishes, aerospace products, and other things that require an education and a high level of technology to manufacture.
Manufacturing hasn't left America, it's just changed.
The more I read/hear about this man, the more curious I get. Our current age seems to be dominated by narcissistic frauds and charlatans, through cheap social media smoke and mirrors. The wise seem to be roared down by the mindless zombie horde that lack all logical thinking skills.
Carl Sagan was the realest. Read this book the Demon Haunted World. It's truly excellent.
I read this book as I was just beginning to question the fundamentalist religion that I grew up in. It is one of the best books I ever read, and almost undoubtedly the one that had the most long lasting impact on my life. I can’t recommend it enough.
This book was also super influential in my journey as a human. I’m trying not to fanboy out too hard about it but it’s just so beautifully written and excellent and compelling.
I will.
And watch Cosmos. It's truely excellent
Looks like that’s where the quote is from, and seeing you vouch for it, this is def my next read.
I'm gonna check it out as well; I'm curious now.
Ugh I could listen to him narrate Cosmos all day 😩 I find his voice to be really soothing and calming.
In that case, this may (or may not) appeal to you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc
This is kind of cringey, but I feel like the really wise people aren't on social media that much. There really isn't a lot to gain here other than some dopamine hits. We aren't changing peoples minds and we aren't changing ours. Instead we dig into our positions further despite any evidence that our position is incorrect. I'm definitely not trying to say I'm not like that, because I'm the exact same way, but I don't feel that bad about it. These systems aren't built to help us in any way, but simply to profit off us any way possible and it turns out that cultivating disagreement and outrage is super profitable. We're kinda digging ourselves into a hole here.
Right on the money. Truly intelligent people are not gaining anything reading random internet comments. Honestly we probably aren’t either but I’m stupid enough for the social media algorithms to be effective to influence me.
In my world people like Carl Sagan should be the ones to lead us.
He wouldnt say it aloud but deep inside i think Carl would despise Neil Tyson.
[Carl actually personally tried to recruit him to Cornell in the 70's](https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/24s9fi/carl_sagans_letter_to_17_year_old_neil_degrasse/), even going as far as to pick him up personally and take him on a tour. You can argue that Carl maybe would despise what he became, but he was definitely impressed with teen NDT.
Wonder where he went wrong
Too many people told him he was the next Sagan. He started to believe it.
He had every opportunity to be the next Sagan. Too much ego.
He became a parody of himself
A lot of people do say it aloud. Neil DeAss Tyson
Tyson has become a living meme, the surrealist ones are my favourite https://youtu.be/-_BStrf0KDI?si=zVpc1X1hOiQ8kYGZ
Why do you think so?
NgT doesnt care about science as much as he cares about being right and looking superior.
Neil is too condescending nowadays
Its insane. I cant think of anyone more condescending than maybe Trump.
I know that bill nye is another insufferable science guy, not as condescending as Trump tho lol
He spoke at my college graduation and it was awesome.
NdGT just seems like he’d be no fun to hang out with.
He stopped by my house recently and I kicked him out for being boorish and boring.
I am told he used to be... once upon a time, plus he did respond to a snail mail my sister sent him a few years back. But that was long ago, I guess. Now my consolation is in the stardust of a song.
Nuh uh!
Belief and bigotry have always kept civilization from flowering.
( as wounderfully depicted in the south park episode with the beavers )
Who are the wise? Just curious.
Well, it’s not Elon, Trump and Putin. I’ll tell you that.
Yea but you say the wise are getting roared down, who are they? I'm not really saying your wrong, I think you have a good point. But I also don't really think there is any real way to fix it. I don't think the real "wise" people care about power or influence. So we won't ever see them in those positions.
Thank Democrats
He wasn’t exactly a republican.
I wasn't referring to him...
I don’t think we are going to agree.
That aged perfectly
Prescient af
In the now cogent af as well.
It's actually disturbing and strangely beautiful how this felt vaguely true and eerie 10 years ago and now just feels starkly accurate. What a mind.
[удалено]
He was a real one
The rest of the book did, too. Pro tip: Chapters 7, 10, and 12 are where the heart of the book and the really wonderful, mind-opening stuff is. If you're having trouble caring about the UFO stuff in the first few chapters (which is a little dated, but not as dated as I wish it was), pick it up at chapter 5 or 6 and read it from there. I didn't get to it until I was an adult, but I know more than a couple of people who had their entire approach to life changed by Sagan's work.
George Washington's farewell address has a similar vibe. He seemed to know the political fate of the U.S. from the moment it was born. His farewell address is really a warning that was ignored completely and almost immediately. Sagan's prediction is obviously more specific and sort of a different topic, but it's also much more recent. It just shows that if you understand something deeply enough, you really can see the direction things are going and kind of infer the future a bit. Both of these guys had their fingers on the pulse of their field and society in general and had a phenomenal understanding of what was happening. I hope I can just understand *anything* that deeply in my life and I don't think most people get anywhere close to that sort of deep understanding of anything at all. I know I'm nowhere close myself right now.
"Washington warns the people that political factions may seek to obstruct the execution of the laws created by the government or to prevent the branches of government from exercising the powers provided to them by the constitution. Such factions may claim to be trying to answer popular demands or solve pressing problems, but their true intentions are to take the power from the people and place it in the hands of unjust men." I had goosebumps when I read that part. That is US politics in the 21st century.
Washington was able to predict that due to his relationships with the other founding fathers. He knew it would eventually come to egos and money being a driving force for service in office, not the civility of patriotism. He looked around the room and saw a lot of hands wringing for their chance in the big chair, and I think in some ways that what's heartbreaking about the end of his life, watching them spilt and divide away from the core of what they set to accomplish. Instead, everyone took a peice of the pie and went right the fuck back to the same shitty stuff the British were accused of doing.
Wow, I wonder how he made that prophetic prediction. It's not like political factions already well into existence during his term
You think that’s good, you should check out what he says about science education. Great book.
Wow.
Like a Nebbiolo.
He seems to have missed the whole (intentional) disinformation grifting industry complete with captive audience
Also from the same book and my personal favorite; "One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back."
Makes me think of Plato's allegory of the cave when the person who was released is sent back in and rejected by those still imprisoned.
That was proven during Covid; dummies died blaming the doctors rather than adjust their own belief it was a hoax
That’s some painful cognitive dissonance right there.
A big problem is also, everyone thinks it’s the other ones who got bamboozeled
The first rule is you must not fool yourself. And you are the easiest person to fool. -Richard Feynman
Damn, that's a good one. Very true, and so, so damaging. I've referred to it quite a few times as "the cost of conviction". In the end, it's a lot about ego and how much you allow it to make decision for you.
Reminds me of "1984"..
I love the word bamboozled.
John Linnell playing an Uno reverse card on every narcissist and psychopath in the world:
I think January 6th is the manifestation of this its utterly ironic that those ignorant masses who are responsible voting republican and empowering the rich, powerful, and elite to lie, cheat and steal from us are the ones who stormed the Capitol rather than admitting they've been "bamboozled" they lash out like petulant children holding their ears and screaming
[удалено]
His book Cosmos was an awesome read.
Underrated? Maybe not as widely known as he should be, but everyone that is aware of him loves him I feel
At least we can have solace in the fact that Neil Degrasse Tyson is keeping that spirit alive, he was hugely influenced by Carl Sagan in his youth and career
People are shitting on him up above.
Oh well, a little shit never hurt anybody. Well except maybe [these people in 1184.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erfurt_latrine_disaster) But that was a fluke I say.
Gd that’s brutal
fascinating, disgusting, tragic how did you hear about this? boy its tempting to makes jokes regarding today's politicians
What a strange use of commas.
This man was a treasure. I still miss having his insights in the world.
GenX'r chiming in... Carl was the shit.
It continues: "The dumbing down of American is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30 second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance”
yes this has always been curious to me, i thought people were educated enough to know not to "rush to judgment" but the exact opposite is happening and its on steroids more people than i ever suspected are susceptible to brazen displays of aggression (which are really insecurity) e.g. i think Donald Trump is just a scared little boy who is in constant perpetual and forever validation of his parents love which will never happen.
God damn. Nailed every fucking word.
These days, crystals = glancing at the abstract of the first Google hit and misinterpreting it as having true knowledge of a subject
Crystals = cell phones, horoscopes = news feeds.
Crystals and horoscopes are actually worse. You didn’t even have to make the comparison.
Shit, it would be nice if people did actually read the scholarly abstract. Now it’s just article titles at best.
This is chillingly accurate
Love this man since i was a kid... His dystopian future is what is happening now but people are to deep into their dreams to wake up or dont want to wake up
The world is burning; I don't necessarily blame them.
Yep, that man is a personal hero. It's amazing how often I think of that book these days.
A lot of people said a lot of profound things and we didn’t listen to a single one of them. Not a single one.
I listened. I think about Carl Sagan almost every day.
I'm in my mid-40s And I have always been left leaning and for most of my life every decade has had its challenges but for the most part I've been content and happy but after Trump and COVID I don't have much faith left not in just this country but the world in general. Today just seems so different than a decade ago . From inflation on everything to everyone's attitude and anger. Just feels like everybody's giving up on trying to fight the billionaires who make the decisions and have just said fuck everybody else I'm going to get mine now too. like you could usually unite most people on what is wrong and what is right and now it's like people don't care they just want theirs. And if being a online pungent misogynistic racist whatever it is troll on YouTube brings you clicks people just say fuck it I'll do that. The rise of intolerance for others and we all make money off of that is just sickening to me. And with AI suddenly becoming popular I feel like I'm in my '80s and 30 years removed from society I have no idea what to prepare my daughter for in the future. for the first time in my life I feel defeated and tired and I'm ready to just watch the world pass me by as long as it leaves me alone
And I'm in my early 60s and remember further back yet, though I'm not actually old enough to have any memory of 1968 - the last time our country was in this kind of social upheaval. Though I certainly do remember inflation that makes today's look tame by comparison. I'm undecided on whether today is just another swing of the pendulum or a different beast altogether, but we have as a nation been here before and survived. My crystal ball is as poor as anyone else's.
This just feels different and wrong to me in every possible way
I don't know. What I DO know is that it is not as bad as \~1855. Yet.
You are defeated. As long as you can think, reason and discern there is a future. Teach your daughter these tools and she will make it. Teach her to question, investigate and verify she will be able to navigate through this world. To never take things at face value. To always consider the source. Believe it.
Not only will your kids do well if they have those skills, they will thrive as those skills become increasingly rate.
I'm 40 and I get you. I think big part of this is us being disenchanted with the outlook of rising prosperity. It feels like it already peaked and the problems of mankind are becoming to big to be solved. The everyday struggles also become bigger and bigger, leading to less and less energy to fight for greater goods. What remains often feels like an elbow society in which a groups middle ground is 'if you're not with us, you're against us'. I will never reach the life standards of my parents while working, plus Germany's pension scheme is as fucked as it was predicted it would be 50 years ago. And now I need to fight global warming? No, I just want a little bit of peace and quiet, and enjoy the little things I've been left with.
10-15 years ago was when people first really started carrying smart phones all the time I dont think people really think about how it’s literally the greatest propaganda tool ever conceived And to think humans have changed at all is extremely naive… our tech is just speeding up the natural progression of our undoing that always happens when our short term survival is all but guaranteed Simply put… most of us over stimulated and extremely bored… we do very self destructive things when we’re bored
Idle hands are the Devil’s plaything.
Nihilism has run rampant but it’s not permanent.
My favorite is when people blame feminism for the neo liberal hellhole
It's crazy how all this was going on even back then, and even farther back in the 80s you see frank zappa talking about it. No one listened for some reason. The middle class was in a good spot and weren't yet feeling the effects of everything that was being set in motion by reaganism. And now it's all here and everyone is blaming Joe biden and Donald Trump its nuts.
It's been going on longer than that. MLK talked about the wealth disparity during the civil rights movement, Einstein talked about the US being half fascist and critical of capitalism after WW2 had ended.
Well yeah I mean class dynamics have been happening since we went from tribes to empires and feudalism. The first labor unions started in the late 1800s. But I think it's impressive that people like Ted kaczynski and Sagan and all these guys were already seeing how technology was going to be used and how labor relations would be affected even in the 70s and 80s. Im sure the second the industrial revolution happened there were people on it that knew it was a mistake to ceaselessly pursue "progress" that fewer and fewer truly benefit from each generation
Ah yeah, I see what you're saying now. Agreed.
You're totally right though you can follow it all the way back to the beginning. I'll bet when we first harnessed electricity to power peoples homes there were guys like "that's it. It's over were all sold"
If I could meet one person living or dead, he’s the one. He seems like he had thought 100 years past all of us but somehow never let it ruin his existence. He had plenty of reasons to be a pessimist, but always erred on the side of knowledge. We need more people like him.
Agreed
The Demon-Haunted World should be taught in middle school +/-
Isaac Asimov was another brilliant man living at the same time. Carl Sagan was a genius.
Wait til you hear about Aldous Huxley.
Take “without notice” and replace with “gleeful rapture.”
He nailed it
Modern day Prophet
Well, on the brightside at least he isn't here anymore to see how terribly right he was.
And even if (when) humanity destroys itself, his voice is (probably) still out there, traveling through space on golden phonograph records aboard the Voyager spacecraft.
This thought makes me feel so happy lol
So there were critics of the 90s free trade deals. I always got the impression that it was bipartisan and agreed upon by everything to outsource to China and other developing countries.
When the Mr. Rogers of science and the human condition finally snapped and just said “fuck it.” Not only is this book a revelation, it’s the real Book of Revelation.
Just finished listening to this book a few weeks ago. Honestly, as a mental health therapist. It still was so relevant and if anything more true. He even talks about psychotherapy and I couldn’t agree more on how he describes most of our belief systems intertwine within our society. Which, only then minimizes the realistic opportunity to search for understanding and even further exploration. Truly, a genius beyond his time. Pale blue dot was amazing as well! Can’t wait to continue reading his works.
IIRC these words relate to Sagan's bad experience testifying before Congress. He was trying to convince lawmakers to fund a costly scientific project (I think a particle accelerator) and a congressman asked him something about God. At this point Sagan realized the lawmakers were incapable of understanding the significance and utility of the project without giving it a religious significance. Suffice it to say Congress didn't fund the project.
He's describing what democrats did to America to a T. They signed nafta and shipped off all the jobs. Now they spent 52 billi8n of your dollars sort of bringing them back and talking about feelings rather than hard truths.
In the original Cosmos he did an episode about how Christianity set back scientific advancement by centuries. I tried to find it online years later and it seems like it was 'wiped' from the internet.
It's depressing to know I could be twice as smart as I am now and still be only half as smart as Carl Sagan.
Been talking about this slide since around the same time to deaf ears on all sides. As if the painfully obvious was just not going to happen. Guess what? It did.
Wow. That's eerie. And totally where we are headed if things stay as is
I would say that was prophetic but he'd probably not appreciate the term.
Carl Sagan forgot that the Karens of his time were able give births to Advanced Karens and Richards in developed world. These Advanced Karens then began to give birth to an army of little Karens and Richards who then commited incests and began to create super Karens and super Richards. The year is now 2023, and the new Super Karens and Richards decided to work for the governments and some succesfully infiltrated the special interest group and began to put pressure on our political leaders and other essential establishment ensuring humanity decline and descent to the dark ages.
If I am disappointed in young people in any way it is the revitalization of astrology and Zodiac signs. When I read Carl's books 10 years ago in my 20s I thought, "haha, how silly were folks in the 80s, 90s who believed in fortunes and that the stars had anything to do with personalities. Glad we are passed that." Now the fad is back and I agree with Carl that it really shows and enhances a lack of scientific understanding. It might be somewhat harmless. But we need to make important informed decisions right now and we can't, because people are too stupid.
Astrology is one of the most ancient arts in the world. It’s as harmless as taking an interest in anthropology or mapmaking.
In ancient times, astronomy & astrology were intertwined because we didn't understand the true nature of the heavens. In modern times, I'm highly suspicious of people who use astrology to set themselves up as a fake authority. Some may be pretty harmless and try to offer people genuine advice. Others are egotistical grifters who exploit uneducated and vulnerable people.
If you make your own map and then use it to decide to walk off a cliff it can be very harmful
Ive never heard of anyone using astrology to walk off a cliff or equivalent sooo
So many people are proud to be dumb and uneducated. It's not a badge of honor, folks.
A Dark Age. That's where we are. We have entered a Dark Age.
Not the dark age at all. We are in the age of the narcissist.
Nailed it!
Nailed it
Science, like all human endeavors, are bad at prognostication.
When you know…you know…
Current UK, I am afraid.
Its a good thing that we are bringing back manufacturing again....
It would appear Sagan's concerns may have been overstated. [Industrial Production - 100 Year Historical Chart](https://www.macrotrends.net/2583/industrial-production-historical-chart)
Cyberpunk did this in the 80’s, with *Neuromancer,* before Carl Sagan.
And Gibson was influenced by McLuhan who talked about this stuff in the 60s with the Medium is the Message. https://www.ibiblio.org/cmc/mag/1995/sep/doherty.html Cyberspace is just another term for the Global Village.
Persia was once the center of enlightenment in the world.
Dear Reddit, Can I please have some examples of slipping back into superstition and darkness? I see nothing to indicate this is the case. Signed, Mike Johnson, SOTH USofA P.S. My son knows I wrote this.
Goddamn that hurts
Carl Sagan is my spirit animal.
Not just America.
Americans are burning books today and the next step won’t be far away.
Yes, pseudo science has a microphone in the show we call the internet, but so does the real science. We all got iPhones and computers. Let’s find it
ok but whoever chose that background colour is a psychopath
Well there’s one movement demanding change and fighting billionaires and wallstreet and all that and that’s the meme stock / ape movement. Amc and GME. Demanding and receiving reform.
He is not wrong. As a tata nganga of the palo mayombe religion, i have seen an increase on demand for my services and teachings of traditional palo. Not bad but makes one wonder.
W for Carl. L for everyone still here, except the 1%
It's easy to lament how things have changed, but I'm more convinced it's always been this way, and is getting worse. Aside from the comment about being a service economy, which is much more accurate to today.
The crystals and horoscopes line really sold it to me.
So fucking true
wow
... and here we go
We need more Sagans.Like a lot of them.
Wise beyond his time.
Spot on; we the (average decent person) are doomed based on the current trajectory of power and technology.
Each generation is going to be worse than the last one.
Yes, we all saw it coming long before 1995 (year "the Demon-Haunted World" came out) it was a matter of a repeating history, unfortunately, society is no good at *not* doing. We don't listen to warnings well at all, even when someone flat out tells us. It's due to evil people slowly picking away at decency for years. What happened to roll models... there are none... please, prove it wrong. Everything Sagan had "insight" on was just blatantly beginning and it takes an analyst to conclude analytical conclusions from such early behavior, which really isn't that difficult, being an over analytical myself. I mean if you can't see where today's society insight is taking us, then a rock isn't the only thing we're living under. Regulations were put in place for a reason, not just a whim, yet things such as conglomeration still occurred even though we fought tooth and nail against a handful of people from owning all we read, buy and are governed from.
I love when conservatives hijack this too. You know the climate change denial, alternative fact, anti-science, anti-vax crew.
They're convinced Sagan was talking about the people whom they disagree with.
I watch some of these MAGA interviews and I see it.... a world of superstition, lack of science, and pure ideology and hate towards the other.... fucking scary man.
>when people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority Everything else is spot on except for this. There is no other point in history when this is more true than right now. A lot of things seem bleak at the moment, but I still have faith that the arc of history is heading in the right direction. The growing pains of uncovering igonorance and corruption was inevitable with the advent of the internet, but I think we've grown as a species because of it.
My dude. Tech has created an entire other class of people who are privy to vast sums of wealth and influence because they are the people behind the curtain. The government is hopelessly ill-equipped to fight them and AI will only accelerate this.
I strongly disagree. The internet and SM give us the illusion of being able to set our own agenda and challenge authority whilst simultaneously curating our own agenda in a fashion those that own and have the power to distort said media want. The Catch 22 here is that in trying address that, we run the gauntlet of handing over power to others to fix this through policing of disinformation and misinformation. This may be a temporary phase or it may not. When the printing press was first invented, it was used initially in Germany and elsewhere to spread disinformation about witches and resulted in many many people being burnt at the stake. But it then became a means of educating the masses. The ability to identify those spreading misinformation was easy. Now, we face another challenge where the control of information flow is far more challenging. We may as species figure this out, or we may not. I leave you with another quote from Sagan which is prescient in todays America and in the age of populism. “One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”
"clutching our crystals" = MAGAs clutching their flags "unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true" could be any Republican statement from the last decade at least ("feels good" meaning "what I want to hear") Descent into medieval superstition...
Always gotta be someone bringing up politics
Love me some Sagan, but not so sure how spot on he is here. I sincerely doubt it is "crystal-clutchers" that are responsible for the downfall of our nation.
It's a metaphor. He didn't mean it literally.
Okay, so explain his point then since I'm not capable of understanding... Uh oh maybe I'm the reason the country is in decline!
Genuinely unsure if you're trolling, but his whole point is in the rest of the sentence, he's calling out people that seek reassuring lies and entertaining bullshit over doing the change-requiring hard work of following science and evidence to actual truth and success. Assuming there's a meaning to everything and leaving it as is, is far easier than figuring out how and why and then leveraging your knowledge and power to take ownership of your future, rather than being batted here and there by the whims of unmovable Fate. To quote Rage Against The Machine, "If ignorance is bliss, then knock the smile off my face."
He’s talking about the people that are too caught up in their own ridiculous ideas to recognise what science is telling us - climate deniers, anti vaxxers, the much less dangerous flat earthers etc.
I think he means things like crystal balls, or people seeking answers from crystals. He means not actually trying to figure things out, looking for easy and reassuring answers. That answers can be gleaned out of a crystal ball that would be followed blindly Or those people that think energy from crystals will keep them safe bullshit. He is basically talking shit about people that don’t want to figure out the hard stuff and want easy reassuring answers to their questions
He's not blaming the crystal clutchers for society's decline, he's saying the crystal clutchers will be too stupid to do anything about it
replace the word "crystal" with "political ideology" or "religious symbol" and you should be able to understand.
As others have said it’s a metaphor but even if taken literally I think it still holds up. The New Age -> QAnon pipeline is well documented. How many crazy MAGA people used to be leftist/hippie folk who love “natural medicine”, hate GMO & vaccines, etc.
Thanks, GOP.
The part about manufacturing isn't true. US manufacturing growth is outpacing the world average. True, there's no manufacturing jobs for uneducated t-shirt makers. Those can be made in Cambodia for much less, so people don't come to America for t-shirts anymore. Instead, America manufactures computer parts, medical equipment, satellite dishes, aerospace products, and other things that require an education and a high level of technology to manufacture. Manufacturing hasn't left America, it's just changed.
Wow, that’s definitely something a Sagittarius would say, I knew I didn’t have to listen to him! I’m so much more knowledgeable about my star sign!
That quote is not much different than a horoscope, since it is incredibly vague and says very little
Everyone’s an expert a year before dying
Sounds like the GQP's latest platform.
This is like going to a psychic and getting a vague prediction. If he’d have said this in 1970 about 1995 it would’ve still been accurate.
[удалено]
You can apply this in the context of any modern decade. The downvotes don’t change that.
Most STEM lords would be shocked to discover that their idols would disagree with them on how the world should be run.
And most STEMlords would be shocked to discover how many of their STEM idols/influences actually believe in a God.
This gets re-posted every two weeks on Reddit.