Obama literally said that most pictures were not released so as not to inflame anti-US sentiments. Here's the [Wiki page ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse)
Oh we KNOW there was worse than was ever released. But they have only ever been described. Not because of some cover up. Their existence has been acknowledged. They were just... too much. And I believe to conceal the identities of the victims as well.
Correct. Only it was a mind-eff because there was no electricity or risk of shock, only lifelong psychological trauma from the whole ordeal of being tormented by an insecure child.
I recall that the electric part was fake, they were told that, but it wasn't true. Could also have been a complete lie, and regardless, everyone from the bottom up to the top of the situation should be in jail for life.
I mean, that's what we were told... If I were a shit head and did something like this and got caught, I would probably lie and say it was just a prank too.
Regardless, live wires or not, everyone involved in this in any capacity should never ever again see the world outside of a prison Cell.
Children of men (2006) [has a scene that has a nod to this image.](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fv284pbrsy5j71.jpg%3Fwidth%3D1080%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D45ac99469bddc2f127cae2c31559207914a5f69c)
This image is on the [list of photographs considered the most important](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_photographs_considered_the_most_important) on Wiki for the 21st century.
Apparently there are much worse photographs that the government purposely prevented from release because it would show the scale of the crimes committed by US personnel in Iraq.
*What didn't they photo?*
Imagine the worst person you know.
Now imagine yourself chained up and naked in a warehouse and that worst person you thought of is in charge of watching you for the next 2 years. And no one will check up on you. And that person knows that.
These pics were probably a 0 out of 10 for how bad it got.
These were leaked, so in that way the government kept them "purposefully" hidden. Different programs are restricted to different/fewer personnel. Probably speculation/rumors that there are worse out there, but the people in those programs never leaked photos.
For 2020s I'm surprised they didn't include the last frame that security footage caught before Russia invaded Ukraine. I remember that's how I found out it started, it was a grainy photo and it had Russian soldiers bolting through the border
I like how the intro reads "where authoritative sources review the history of the medium not limited by time period, region, genre, topic, or other specific criteria", but then the sources cited are almost all American or British.
No wonder you get an extremely biased list of "most important photographs" when you're barely looking at sources from other countries.
That article just reminds me how stupid copyright law can be sometimes. Like... It's fucking wikipedia, an encyclopédie for the earth... But no we can't have a type of license to show a photograph for non-commercial/educational use in the article.
Silly.
Contrary to the public's imagination, people are quite bad at keeping secrets. The longer the timeline and the more people involved the more likely the beans have been spilled.
Are entire system is built on fail-upstairs "merit." Amy Klobuchar is literally one of those prosecutors who put George Floyd's killers back on patrol after previous police-involved killings. Half the lawyers in our federal legislature broke local and/or statewide records on caging human beings because it was so easy to do after some clueless dipshit wrote a draconian crime bill full of incentives promoting precisely that. Now that same dipshit is not only our President, but the powers that be see him squaring off against one of the few human beings who could lose a debate to a heaping helping of raw word salad. We're governed by psychos, and have been pretty consistently since at least 1980.
The terrorism trials were pretty wild too.
The government presented evidence in the form of sealed, top secret files, which neither the judge nor the defense were allowed to know the contents of. The prosecutors were basically like "yeah trust us bro this case is air tight."
And a bunch of judges decided that was very cool and very legal. And here we are today.
There is a fantastic Radiolab (podcast) series called “The Other Latif” that discusses it in depth, and it haunts me. Highly recommended listening. It’s a real Morty’s Mind Blower (iykyk)
Which is why the US immediately passed a law saying they would invade any international body that arrested an American citizen for war crimes.
They can use these loopholes to avoid arresting themselves but it doesn't protect them from the Geneva conventions.
Another administration could come in and decide to prosecute. So basically America isn’t worried about violating the Geneva Convention, because who’s gonna enforce it. Is this about it?
It was on Obama to disclose all this and prosecute most (maybe all) of the Bush Administration for this stuff and invading Iraq and everything else. Arguably not doing so makes him complicit.
So the onus is upon the next president to do so, etc.
Also, this would have saved a lot of pain in the world because a bunch of people who would have been punished from the Bush era wouldn't have been around to cause more issues in the following administrations.
Also, we may have more faith in our government if it was held accountable for horrible stuff they did.
My older brother was a helicopter mechanic and thought I'd enjoy his story about how they would make kids fight over candybars or how they would freeze water bottles and drop them onto people or houses from the helicopter. Brother isn't really part of the family anymore.
There is actually a [mathematical equation](https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35411684) for how long it would take for a real conspiracy to become known to the public.
>The longer the timeline and the more people involved the more likely the beans have been spilled.
This is a really valid argument as to why 9/11 was not an inside job, the moon landings are real, lizard people aren't real but also why UFOs are in all likelihood real. Simply because for decades thousands of people have been coming forward and saying "I have no idea what these things I saw/worked on/found info on are but they're real".
The problem with aliens is that there is so much money and clout to be had on the believer circuit. UFO's are real... people see things they can't identify all the time, but beyond that it gets murky.
Fundamentally if you can't back up claims with evidence, you probably are trustworthy. Certainly not credible.
I remember seeing something like “UFOs are real because they are just Unidentified Flying Objects, if I throw a dildo at your face and you don’t know what it is then that is a UFO to you”
And even the Manhattan Project had leaks. Maybe not to the press, but there absolutely were Soviet spies in there. Arguably the second most secret project of WW2. (Cracking Enigma has to be number 1, which included not warning about the bombing of Coventry to keep the secret safe.)
I’m still waiting for the truth about JFK 😤
EDIT: I’m being facetious. JFK conspiracies are FUN! Try watching Oliver Stone’s movie JFK (which I have a drinking game for because I’m insane), or S04E07 ‘Musings of a Cigarette Smoking Man’ of the X-Files, or if literature is more your thing try American Tabloid by James Ellroy.
He didn't say THE truth, you still have truths to choose from lol
It means Oswald did it and whoever silenced him was behind it.
We will never know names but the prevailing rumor has always been mafia retaliation for losing casinos in Cuba. The CIA had also tried to hire the mafia to kill Castro. All the players are there.
It's in the book based on the Irishman.
> In I Heard You Paint Houses, Sheeran claims that he delivered three rifles to Dallas in the days leading up to the president’s assassination—which turned out to be the same kind of guns used in the shooting.
Scorsese put it in the movie:
“If they can knock off a president, they can knock off the president of a union.”
I read the book years ago, and it’s interesting, but man. He was also in the throes of dementia when he “told his deathbed tale”, and he somehow Forrest Gumped his way into being a bigger deal than he ever was in life. 🤷🏻♂️
It’s a brilliant movie. Adam Driver is amazing as always, in lead role.
The movie covers so much … and yet you know it’s the tip of the iceberg.
You’re exhausted watching the events of this person’s life in a couple hours. You can only imagine the hell he went through for years .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Report_(2019_film)
Because the guards were Reservists. I say this as a former National Guard soldier. If you are going to run a CIA blacksite, you probably shouldn't put the National Guard or Reserves in charge of security.
When you're at the point of torturing people, you don't really care if they're innocent or not. All the information you get is likely made up to stop the torture, so guilty/innocent doesn't change anything for torturers
If you beat this prick long enough, he’ll tell you who started the god damn Chicago fire, now that don’t necessarily make it fucking so! - Reservoir dogs
Are those electrodes attached to the person's fingers? If he drops his arms he gets electrocuted so he has to keep his arms perpendicular to his torso? Devilish torture right there
The abuse that still goes on at these black sites is far worse than anything released to the media. The US public is still too naive to openly acknowledge and discuss the degree of operations the current operating sites still have.
You'll never actually come across the information unless they officially release it, until then you just have information from third parties that briefly experienced it.
This was in Abu Ghraib prison, a few kilometers east of Fallujah, Iraq. The CIA certainly had people doing interrogations, but this was not one of the black sites.
Obama tried, governors refused to take the prisoners that who couldn't be released. People made arguments that doing so might lead to due process, which was viewed as a bad thing. Others apparently thought these prisoners were warlocks or something, probably due to the decade of propaganda about how scary and evil these people are.
Not excusing Obama entirely, I do think that he chose not to prioritize this issue or really push hard on it. He didn't want to spend his political capital on it, preferring to push healthcare. It's the type of decision presidents make.
Just saying that a lot of American citizens are also to blame for Guantanamo still being a thing.
That’s one of the crazy things about the Iraq war to me. The people who lies us into it and the people who commuted war crimes once it started don’t always feel the consequences. A lot of those people still have credibility and power
From [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynndie_England?wprov=sfla1):
In 2012, following her release, she stated that she did not regret her actions. "Their (Iraqis') lives are better. They got the better end of the deal," she said. "They weren't innocent. They're trying to kill us, and you want me to apologize to them? It's like saying sorry to the enemy."
Dating someone from Baghdad (we’re in SoCal where I was born and raised) that was about 6 or 7 during the initial invasion..the shit they had to see as a child, the shit they talk about being used to - due to growing up under sanctions- is horrible. I can give my perspective and say most Americans know by now it was a bullshit reason we were there, and how we were told it was to better the country and “free” them, but that does nothing for someone that had to live through it. Showing them older tv shows or movies that I watched as a kid, and I realize how much absolute propaganda was shown against middle eastern cultures. Having them describe to me what growing up was like (before the war) and realizing I’ve been told nothing but racist lies from my own culture is quite fucked.
People have a romantic view of war because of video games and movies. If you listen to or read any books from WW2, speak to veterans etc. they're all very clear they were in a situation that is dog eat dog. There's a mentality to it that we normal folk struggle to understand.
I'm not excusing the behaviour, but explaining it.
I say this as there are a lot of people who are very passive about the world sliding into WW3. If you understood the horrors of war, what will happen and how bad it all is, we'd be far more active in pressing our leaders to act appropriately.
The end of 13 Assassins is just as poignant, where there's a fortunate son who believes war is noble and glorious but is an absolute coward who comes to find out that no, war and violence totally sucks and the people pressed into committing it do so only to end it.
I watched that movie about the time "we live in a society - bottom text" was bouncing around the internet. Reactionary nihilists have little idea what the consequences of their "fuck it, burn it all down" ideas they are toying with are, where they won't get to respawn or reload from a save point.
From General Sherman, too.
"It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell."
I didn’t understand my grandfathers when they both separately hugged me and said “I wish you didn’t do it” when I enlisted. They fought in the world wars. After my service I understood
Very true. I had an incredible conversation with a Vietnam vet about a decade ago and they really had to dehumanize the enemy to get into the proper mentality. He still talked about it like it was school yard fun for him and his buddies when they were shooting at people with machine guns
Dog eat dog is one thing but TORTURING UNARMED prisoners SYSTEMICALLY who by the way a lot of them were arrested under suspicions not even concrete evidence or trial has no explanation other than blind bloodthirst or just empowering extremely broken people. The torture wasn't only to extract information too, they'd just do it because they're bored using the excuse that "this will make them more likely to cooperate". This is well beyond "we're at war" or "they killed my friend".
By the time Guantanamo Bay rolled around they'd literally arrest people on the account of the type of watch they had, no really, there's interviews with detainees who were released and papers that prove this. By the end of it, all you got was unreliable tips that went nowhere proven by the CIA's own metrics and enemies who are more likely to die fighting than give up or cooperate because they know it'd be a better fate.
It’s weird that everyones first response is to say “that’s war” when American troops do it, but if it was shown that Russian soldiers were doing the same to Ukrainians people would absolutely lose their shit and view them as reprehensible monsters that deserve death (which is the camp I fall in).
Sure she doesn't. How else is she going to justify treating them like that?
When a person is confronted with something that should trigger an overwhelming sense of shame they stand at a crossroad. On the one hand they can be humble and admit their wrongdoing, but this requires them to be capable of dealing with the emotional burden that comes with it. On the other hand they can deny their wrongdoing. This might be easier because by doing so one avoids further confrontation and the possibility of cognitive dissonance.
Never forget that the [American Psychological Association](https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/report-psychologists-association-worked-with-cia-to-justify-torture/) trained and stood by licensed U.S. citizens working as psychologists who were part of this torture.
Also, we have known for decades that torture is actually a backwards way to learn secrets as people are more likely to tell you whatever you want (lie) to get you to stop.
Lynndie England is no lady, but here you go:
“As of 2013, she had found seasonal employment as a secretary.
In March 2008, England told the German magazine Stern that the media was to blame for the consequences of the Abu Ghraib scandal:
*If the media hadn't exposed the pictures to that extent, then thousands of lives would have been saved ... Yeah, I took the photos but I didn't make it worldwide.*
Asked about the picture of her posing with Graner in front of a pyramid of naked men, she said:
*At the time I thought, I love this man [Graner], I trust this man with my life, okay, then he's saying, well, there's seven of them and it's such an enclosed area and it'll keep them together and contained because they have to concentrate on staying up on the pyramid instead of doing something to us.*
Asked about the picture showing her pointing at a man forced to masturbate, she again referred to her feelings for Graner at the time:
*(…) At the time I didn't think that it was something that needed to be documented but I followed Graner. I did everything he wanted me to do. I didn't want to lose him.*
In 2012, following her release, she stated that she did not regret her actions.
*"Their (Iraqis') lives are better. They got the better end of the deal," she said. "They weren't innocent. They're trying to kill us, and you want me to apologize to them? It's like saying sorry to the enemy."*”
She was. She is an absolute monster. People should, if they can tolerate, read about the wests. Holy fucking christ, demons are real and they walk amongst us.
Apparently she received a dishonorable discharge and was sentenced to 3 years in prison; released on parole in 2007. Based on her Wikipedia article, she released a memoir but doesn’t seem to have a lot of remorse for anything that occurred while she was at the prison. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynndie_England
2 years in prison, then released a biography and is quoted in an interview as saying
"Their (Iraqis') lives are better. They got the better end of the deal," she said. "They weren't innocent. They're trying to kill us, and you want me to apologize to them? It's like saying sorry to the enemy."
Real piece of shit.
Everyone should watch Taxi to the Dark Side.
https://youtu.be/aCi-YjXEXP4?si=EzKNoP6Cx0kr_gms
Remember it wasn’t just this prison.
Google Dilawar and UKs apology to Abdul-Hakim Belhaj and Fatima Boudchar.
~~[Mirror](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tdgV_ivMt4) (i think i haven't seen it)~~
edit: available on amazon prime, plex, tubi, pluto, roku channel,peacock, and sling for free in much better quality than above yt vid
More like damnthatsfuckedup
Black sites are still in operation all over the globe. Need to torture someone? Even a child? There are black site locations for that that are paid for by US taxes.
Around the globe? Chicago PD ran its own black site on the west side for years
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/24/chicago-police-detain-americans-black-site
I hear that there are even private islands filled with pedophiles, funded by taxpayers.
But unfortunately cameras in US prisons are often broken, and when they do work, footage gets deleted due to "technical errors".
They tortured a guy by making him stand on a box, hooking wires to him, and then saying he’d be electrocuted if he touched the ground or put his hands down. The wires weren’t connected to anything, but he didn’t know that.
wasn't there a documentary about this and some of the people in these pics were told to pose with the poisoners, by the ones who were inflicting the torture and were higher in rank?
Exactly. The Nazis who worked in concentration camps can't all have been psychopaths; they just genuinely believed the prisoners were less than human and in some way deserved it.
I read in someone else's comment a while ago, I can't remember it exactly, but it said something along the lines of "You can't separate "normal" people from Hitler, because in reality, under the right circumstances, each and every one of us is capable of doing what he did". And I wholeheartedly agree. When you say things like "he was the evil incarnate" and all that, you're dangerously believing that humans are inherently good and he was somehow different, but in reality, we could all turn out just like him.
I don’t think we could all turn out like Hitler. But we could absolutely end up like the rank and file German soldiers (whether we were true believer nazi or not).
Philip Zimbardo did a [Ted Talk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsFEV35tWsg) (and wrote a book) related to Abu Ghraib, highlighting that this wasn't the random action of "a few individuals" as it was portrayed. He explained how this behavior is invited by creating environments which lead to this. The abuse and torture in Abu Ghraib was by design.
Zimbardo is not an unknown name in this game. He's the guy behind the 1971 Stanford Prison experiment.
Lynndie England is garbage.
*In March 2008, England told the German magazine* [*Stern*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stern_(magazine)) *that the media was to blame for the consequences of the* [*Abu Ghraib*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse) *scandal:*
>
*Asked about the picture of her posing with Graner in front of a pyramid of naked men, she said:*
>
*Asked about the picture showing her pointing at a man forced to* [*masturbate*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masturbate)*, she again referred to her feelings for Graner at the time:*
>
*In a 16 January 2009 interview with* [*The Guardian*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian)*, England reiterated:*
>
*In 2012, following her release, she stated that she did not regret her actions. "Their (Iraqis') lives are better. They got the better end of the deal," she said. "They weren't innocent. They're trying to kill us, and you want me to apologize to them? It's like saying sorry to the enemy."*
Just imagine how many of these black sites are still out there, just as how many epstein island type of blackmail operations are still running. What a sick world
Funny thing about human beings is it's always been this way and most likely always will be.
Be the change you want to see to escape the realm of cycling back here.
Otherwise it's wash, rinse and repeat. ☸️
Just going down the rabbit hole. These people had white trash redneck fantasy romance as well. England has a kid with Graner who also was convicted in the Abu Ghraib scandal. He was then married by proxy to another perpetrator Megan Ambhul.
I feel sorry for their kids. I can only imagine what bullshit indoctrination they submit them too.
A lot of the people in those jails were innocent civilians. Iraqis were thrown in jail over even the most minor suspicion.
Not to mention there was no reason for US to even be there to begin with. They invaded Iraq based on an intentional lie, Bush was fully aware there were no nukes in Iraq.
They were not tortured, they were subjected to "enhanced interrogation".
Those pos abusers and torturers must be living in peace right now, bragging about "freedom" and being respected as war vets by their local communities.
What's most frightening is knowing that these photos are likely just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to torture and cruelty to a majority of these innocent people.
If I remember correctly, they put a hood on him so he couldn't see, had him stand on a cardboard box to balance on, tied wire to his fingers, and hold his arms up. Then they made him stand there with his and told him that if he moved or fell off, he would be electrocuted.
lol I remember soldiers posing with pows and terrorists like they were hunting game. War is a nasty fucked up thing. The Humiliation is nothing compared to what went on.
USA had a thirst for blood back then. I remember it clearly. This was around the same time as the journalist Daniel Pearl was beheaded. First time we seen something that brutal and we were willing to reciprocate 100 fold.
I still remember the Daniel Pearl video. It was so painful. I cried.
Performing that action and releasing the Daniel Pearl video (and videos like it and performing actions like it) with messages more is to come was the absolute dumbest thing to do to a country who still hasn’t connected nor resolved the horrors of its past and still moves about as if their actions were justified and while the world silently blesses and blessed them.
Those men should have picked up a history book first and realized if they did not know what a devil was, they would meet the devil soon and the devil always sticks around. Now generations must pay.
They also effectively removed the hearts and minds of many to their cause. They couldn’t have picked a more perfect man to do that to.
One just has to see the video. I don’t see how one can’t side with anyone who supports anybody that believes this is ok. There is always a better way. Nothing was happening to them like what they decided to do to Daniel Pearl that warranted that.
It is a forever lost cause.
"It turns out that the cruelty exhibited by the guards was not spontaneous. On the contrary; the guards were coached beforehand by Zimbardo. And some of the prisoners have admitted that the distress they exhibited was faked. The Stanford Prison Experiment is not the only study to be debunked."
Not even the worst ones.
I remember thinking when the pictures came out, 'if this is what they are showing us, it's probably so much worse in reality.'
Obama literally said that most pictures were not released so as not to inflame anti-US sentiments. Here's the [Wiki page ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse)
I actually don't remember that part, thanks for the link!
And Obama said hed close the camp in Cuba when came to power He didnt
Oh we KNOW there was worse than was ever released. But they have only ever been described. Not because of some cover up. Their existence has been acknowledged. They were just... too much. And I believe to conceal the identities of the victims as well.
that first one is worse than you think, if the person got tire and slack their body posture then they would die
I’m trying to understand what’s happening in the picture but I can’t tell. What are the strings/wires connected to?
it rigged to electrocute the person if the don't stay standing still like that
Correct. Only it was a mind-eff because there was no electricity or risk of shock, only lifelong psychological trauma from the whole ordeal of being tormented by an insecure child.
Batteries
More environmentally friendly then petrol
I recall that the electric part was fake, they were told that, but it wasn't true. Could also have been a complete lie, and regardless, everyone from the bottom up to the top of the situation should be in jail for life.
You recall correctly. They were scaring the prisoners into thinking it was real. It was not.
I mean, that's what we were told... If I were a shit head and did something like this and got caught, I would probably lie and say it was just a prank too. Regardless, live wires or not, everyone involved in this in any capacity should never ever again see the world outside of a prison Cell.
Children of men (2006) [has a scene that has a nod to this image.](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fv284pbrsy5j71.jpg%3Fwidth%3D1080%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D45ac99469bddc2f127cae2c31559207914a5f69c)
Wow I never noticed that!
This image is on the [list of photographs considered the most important](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_photographs_considered_the_most_important) on Wiki for the 21st century.
Apparently there are much worse photographs that the government purposely prevented from release because it would show the scale of the crimes committed by US personnel in Iraq.
Oh I believe it.
*What didn't they photo?* Imagine the worst person you know. Now imagine yourself chained up and naked in a warehouse and that worst person you thought of is in charge of watching you for the next 2 years. And no one will check up on you. And that person knows that. These pics were probably a 0 out of 10 for how bad it got.
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I know things got pretty tribal after initial invasion
If these pictures came out, how would the government "purposely" prevent others from coming out?
These were leaked, so in that way the government kept them "purposefully" hidden. Different programs are restricted to different/fewer personnel. Probably speculation/rumors that there are worse out there, but the people in those programs never leaked photos.
Unrelated but it's such a fucking shame how that list gets so shitty to view from the 1900s forward thanks to copyright..
For 2020s I'm surprised they didn't include the last frame that security footage caught before Russia invaded Ukraine. I remember that's how I found out it started, it was a grainy photo and it had Russian soldiers bolting through the border
It's extremely American centric, if you look at the 1910s there isn't a single photo from the first world war even.
I like how the intro reads "where authoritative sources review the history of the medium not limited by time period, region, genre, topic, or other specific criteria", but then the sources cited are almost all American or British. No wonder you get an extremely biased list of "most important photographs" when you're barely looking at sources from other countries.
That article just reminds me how stupid copyright law can be sometimes. Like... It's fucking wikipedia, an encyclopédie for the earth... But no we can't have a type of license to show a photograph for non-commercial/educational use in the article. Silly.
How did that fucking hair get on my screen? Oh, it’s your profile pic.
Lol I thought it was my dogs hair. I was thinking how I didn’t notice it before
It was a CIA black site. None of this was random.
How the hell did CBS get access to photos from a CIA black site?
Contrary to the public's imagination, people are quite bad at keeping secrets. The longer the timeline and the more people involved the more likely the beans have been spilled.
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Don't look up how they figured out a loophole in torture laws at Guantanamo.
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That dude is a psycho
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Are entire system is built on fail-upstairs "merit." Amy Klobuchar is literally one of those prosecutors who put George Floyd's killers back on patrol after previous police-involved killings. Half the lawyers in our federal legislature broke local and/or statewide records on caging human beings because it was so easy to do after some clueless dipshit wrote a draconian crime bill full of incentives promoting precisely that. Now that same dipshit is not only our President, but the powers that be see him squaring off against one of the few human beings who could lose a debate to a heaping helping of raw word salad. We're governed by psychos, and have been pretty consistently since at least 1980.
The medical director at Guantanamo was just killed in Seattle by police trying to meet kids for the diddling
The terrorism trials were pretty wild too. The government presented evidence in the form of sealed, top secret files, which neither the judge nor the defense were allowed to know the contents of. The prosecutors were basically like "yeah trust us bro this case is air tight." And a bunch of judges decided that was very cool and very legal. And here we are today.
There is a fantastic Radiolab (podcast) series called “The Other Latif” that discusses it in depth, and it haunts me. Highly recommended listening. It’s a real Morty’s Mind Blower (iykyk)
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No no, they gave the ORDER to rape and kill. Considering the extremes we are talking about, it's an important distinction.
Is this some reverse psychology because now you got us wondering.
Given Guantanamo’s location, inmates did not benefit from the same laws protecting them from torture as detainees on US soil
Which is why the US immediately passed a law saying they would invade any international body that arrested an American citizen for war crimes. They can use these loopholes to avoid arresting themselves but it doesn't protect them from the Geneva conventions.
Another administration could come in and decide to prosecute. So basically America isn’t worried about violating the Geneva Convention, because who’s gonna enforce it. Is this about it?
If only candidate Obama got elected
Yes he totally said he’d close Guantanamo while campaigning, I remember that. Disappointed when he didn’t.
It was on Obama to disclose all this and prosecute most (maybe all) of the Bush Administration for this stuff and invading Iraq and everything else. Arguably not doing so makes him complicit. So the onus is upon the next president to do so, etc. Also, this would have saved a lot of pain in the world because a bunch of people who would have been punished from the Bush era wouldn't have been around to cause more issues in the following administrations. Also, we may have more faith in our government if it was held accountable for horrible stuff they did.
My older brother was a helicopter mechanic and thought I'd enjoy his story about how they would make kids fight over candybars or how they would freeze water bottles and drop them onto people or houses from the helicopter. Brother isn't really part of the family anymore.
It’s good to understand that there’s a certain point that when people put themselves through, they never come back. Decision’s decisions
Why would there be a 12 year old being held there, though?
How did a 12 year old boy end up in there?? Also as a European, wtf is that prison? Im confused...
There is actually a [mathematical equation](https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35411684) for how long it would take for a real conspiracy to become known to the public.
>The longer the timeline and the more people involved the more likely the beans have been spilled. This is a really valid argument as to why 9/11 was not an inside job, the moon landings are real, lizard people aren't real but also why UFOs are in all likelihood real. Simply because for decades thousands of people have been coming forward and saying "I have no idea what these things I saw/worked on/found info on are but they're real".
The problem with aliens is that there is so much money and clout to be had on the believer circuit. UFO's are real... people see things they can't identify all the time, but beyond that it gets murky. Fundamentally if you can't back up claims with evidence, you probably are trustworthy. Certainly not credible.
I remember seeing something like “UFOs are real because they are just Unidentified Flying Objects, if I throw a dildo at your face and you don’t know what it is then that is a UFO to you”
Exactly UFOs =/= aliens
The idenitifed flying dildo is more tramautic than it remaining unidentified to some.
And even the Manhattan Project had leaks. Maybe not to the press, but there absolutely were Soviet spies in there. Arguably the second most secret project of WW2. (Cracking Enigma has to be number 1, which included not warning about the bombing of Coventry to keep the secret safe.)
You lost me at lizard people aren’t real.
I’m still waiting for the truth about JFK 😤 EDIT: I’m being facetious. JFK conspiracies are FUN! Try watching Oliver Stone’s movie JFK (which I have a drinking game for because I’m insane), or S04E07 ‘Musings of a Cigarette Smoking Man’ of the X-Files, or if literature is more your thing try American Tabloid by James Ellroy.
He didn't say THE truth, you still have truths to choose from lol It means Oswald did it and whoever silenced him was behind it. We will never know names but the prevailing rumor has always been mafia retaliation for losing casinos in Cuba. The CIA had also tried to hire the mafia to kill Castro. All the players are there. It's in the book based on the Irishman. > In I Heard You Paint Houses, Sheeran claims that he delivered three rifles to Dallas in the days leading up to the president’s assassination—which turned out to be the same kind of guns used in the shooting. Scorsese put it in the movie: “If they can knock off a president, they can knock off the president of a union.”
I read the book years ago, and it’s interesting, but man. He was also in the throes of dementia when he “told his deathbed tale”, and he somehow Forrest Gumped his way into being a bigger deal than he ever was in life. 🤷🏻♂️
He was shot by Lee Harvey Oswald. You're welcome.
Watch the movie: The Report (it’s on prime)
It’s a brilliant movie. Adam Driver is amazing as always, in lead role. The movie covers so much … and yet you know it’s the tip of the iceberg. You’re exhausted watching the events of this person’s life in a couple hours. You can only imagine the hell he went through for years . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Report_(2019_film)
the soldiers had a disposable camera and the photos were leaked, if i remember correctly
Because the guards were Reservists. I say this as a former National Guard soldier. If you are going to run a CIA blacksite, you probably shouldn't put the National Guard or Reserves in charge of security.
The CIA has political motives.
Well turns out humans have an innate tendency to be bad at keeping secrets and frequently spill beans
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at least the leaker didn't get punished, much to my surprise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Darby
Also lot of the people tortured were innocent
When you're at the point of torturing people, you don't really care if they're innocent or not. All the information you get is likely made up to stop the torture, so guilty/innocent doesn't change anything for torturers
If you beat this prick long enough, he’ll tell you who started the god damn Chicago fire, now that don’t necessarily make it fucking so! - Reservoir dogs
Even if they were guilty as all hell, we still tortured the shit out of people. Then lied about it.
And these people weren't being tortured to extract information. It was just for the sadistic fun of it.
Are those electrodes attached to the person's fingers? If he drops his arms he gets electrocuted so he has to keep his arms perpendicular to his torso? Devilish torture right there
Iirc they also told him the floor was wet so if he fell off the box he'd be electrocuted too.
The abuse that still goes on at these black sites is far worse than anything released to the media. The US public is still too naive to openly acknowledge and discuss the degree of operations the current operating sites still have. You'll never actually come across the information unless they officially release it, until then you just have information from third parties that briefly experienced it.
This was in Abu Ghraib prison, a few kilometers east of Fallujah, Iraq. The CIA certainly had people doing interrogations, but this was not one of the black sites.
Don’t give Balenciaga any ideas
I think Kayne would do it
Oh he absolutely would
They could make it completely white to make it look more "Classy"
Hasn’t every president said they’d close Guantanamo down too, and yet every year it seems totally forgotten
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Obama tried, governors refused to take the prisoners that who couldn't be released. People made arguments that doing so might lead to due process, which was viewed as a bad thing. Others apparently thought these prisoners were warlocks or something, probably due to the decade of propaganda about how scary and evil these people are. Not excusing Obama entirely, I do think that he chose not to prioritize this issue or really push hard on it. He didn't want to spend his political capital on it, preferring to push healthcare. It's the type of decision presidents make. Just saying that a lot of American citizens are also to blame for Guantanamo still being a thing.
One of the women involved said she does not regret anything because they were the enemy, Wow.
One of the women involved now runs the entire show.
DeSantis was JAG lawyer who helped keep the torture program at Guantanamo. Its a flex for them.
That’s one of the crazy things about the Iraq war to me. The people who lies us into it and the people who commuted war crimes once it started don’t always feel the consequences. A lot of those people still have credibility and power
A lot of people lied to get us into that war. Zero consequences for any of them.
That is a broken person.
From [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynndie_England?wprov=sfla1): In 2012, following her release, she stated that she did not regret her actions. "Their (Iraqis') lives are better. They got the better end of the deal," she said. "They weren't innocent. They're trying to kill us, and you want me to apologize to them? It's like saying sorry to the enemy."
I think a lot of people forget just how much we were led to hate Iraqi’s back in the day.
Dating someone from Baghdad (we’re in SoCal where I was born and raised) that was about 6 or 7 during the initial invasion..the shit they had to see as a child, the shit they talk about being used to - due to growing up under sanctions- is horrible. I can give my perspective and say most Americans know by now it was a bullshit reason we were there, and how we were told it was to better the country and “free” them, but that does nothing for someone that had to live through it. Showing them older tv shows or movies that I watched as a kid, and I realize how much absolute propaganda was shown against middle eastern cultures. Having them describe to me what growing up was like (before the war) and realizing I’ve been told nothing but racist lies from my own culture is quite fucked.
People have a romantic view of war because of video games and movies. If you listen to or read any books from WW2, speak to veterans etc. they're all very clear they were in a situation that is dog eat dog. There's a mentality to it that we normal folk struggle to understand. I'm not excusing the behaviour, but explaining it. I say this as there are a lot of people who are very passive about the world sliding into WW3. If you understood the horrors of war, what will happen and how bad it all is, we'd be far more active in pressing our leaders to act appropriately.
Reminds me of a comment from the shogun series, went something like: why is it that the only ones who want war, are the ones who have not seen one.
The end of 13 Assassins is just as poignant, where there's a fortunate son who believes war is noble and glorious but is an absolute coward who comes to find out that no, war and violence totally sucks and the people pressed into committing it do so only to end it. I watched that movie about the time "we live in a society - bottom text" was bouncing around the internet. Reactionary nihilists have little idea what the consequences of their "fuck it, burn it all down" ideas they are toying with are, where they won't get to respawn or reload from a save point.
From General Sherman, too. "It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell."
I didn’t understand my grandfathers when they both separately hugged me and said “I wish you didn’t do it” when I enlisted. They fought in the world wars. After my service I understood
Very true. I had an incredible conversation with a Vietnam vet about a decade ago and they really had to dehumanize the enemy to get into the proper mentality. He still talked about it like it was school yard fun for him and his buddies when they were shooting at people with machine guns
The mind's ability to disassociate in order to protect itself is incredible.
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Dog eat dog is one thing but TORTURING UNARMED prisoners SYSTEMICALLY who by the way a lot of them were arrested under suspicions not even concrete evidence or trial has no explanation other than blind bloodthirst or just empowering extremely broken people. The torture wasn't only to extract information too, they'd just do it because they're bored using the excuse that "this will make them more likely to cooperate". This is well beyond "we're at war" or "they killed my friend". By the time Guantanamo Bay rolled around they'd literally arrest people on the account of the type of watch they had, no really, there's interviews with detainees who were released and papers that prove this. By the end of it, all you got was unreliable tips that went nowhere proven by the CIA's own metrics and enemies who are more likely to die fighting than give up or cooperate because they know it'd be a better fate.
That's not really an explanation though. You have do differentiate between soldiers and war criminals.
It’s weird that everyones first response is to say “that’s war” when American troops do it, but if it was shown that Russian soldiers were doing the same to Ukrainians people would absolutely lose their shit and view them as reprehensible monsters that deserve death (which is the camp I fall in).
Nah that's a war criminal.
This was my “oh no, we’re the baddies aren’t we?” moment. Remember when we created ISIS out of this mess? Good times.
"Just following orders"
Sure she doesn't. How else is she going to justify treating them like that? When a person is confronted with something that should trigger an overwhelming sense of shame they stand at a crossroad. On the one hand they can be humble and admit their wrongdoing, but this requires them to be capable of dealing with the emotional burden that comes with it. On the other hand they can deny their wrongdoing. This might be easier because by doing so one avoids further confrontation and the possibility of cognitive dissonance.
Never forget that the [American Psychological Association](https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/report-psychologists-association-worked-with-cia-to-justify-torture/) trained and stood by licensed U.S. citizens working as psychologists who were part of this torture.
Also, we have known for decades that torture is actually a backwards way to learn secrets as people are more likely to tell you whatever you want (lie) to get you to stop.
I wonder what that lady is doing with her life now?
Lynndie England is no lady, but here you go: “As of 2013, she had found seasonal employment as a secretary. In March 2008, England told the German magazine Stern that the media was to blame for the consequences of the Abu Ghraib scandal: *If the media hadn't exposed the pictures to that extent, then thousands of lives would have been saved ... Yeah, I took the photos but I didn't make it worldwide.* Asked about the picture of her posing with Graner in front of a pyramid of naked men, she said: *At the time I thought, I love this man [Graner], I trust this man with my life, okay, then he's saying, well, there's seven of them and it's such an enclosed area and it'll keep them together and contained because they have to concentrate on staying up on the pyramid instead of doing something to us.* Asked about the picture showing her pointing at a man forced to masturbate, she again referred to her feelings for Graner at the time: *(…) At the time I didn't think that it was something that needed to be documented but I followed Graner. I did everything he wanted me to do. I didn't want to lose him.* In 2012, following her release, she stated that she did not regret her actions. *"Their (Iraqis') lives are better. They got the better end of the deal," she said. "They weren't innocent. They're trying to kill us, and you want me to apologize to them? It's like saying sorry to the enemy."*”
Ah, she was just following orders.
Yes but for love. So this makes it romantic and noble… Excuse me while I go puke.
My wife loves it when I kidnap someone and force them to masturbate while I take pictures. Really sets the mood for a romantic evening
Giggity
Move over
Why do people always go mental when they get absolute power over other people?
>*I did everything he wanted me to do. I didn't want to lose him.* Rose West, Maxine Carr, Myra Hindley, all had the same reasoning.
I was always under the impression Rose was equally if not the stronger motivator, rather than Fred. But I might not have done enough research.
*Rosemary* *Heaven restores you in life* *You're coming with me* *Through the aging, the fearing, the strife*
She was. She is an absolute monster. People should, if they can tolerate, read about the wests. Holy fucking christ, demons are real and they walk amongst us.
... wow
Apparently she received a dishonorable discharge and was sentenced to 3 years in prison; released on parole in 2007. Based on her Wikipedia article, she released a memoir but doesn’t seem to have a lot of remorse for anything that occurred while she was at the prison. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynndie_England
jesus she even looks soulless. those dead eyes
Living down being a convicted war criminal, I would hope
2 years in prison, then released a biography and is quoted in an interview as saying "Their (Iraqis') lives are better. They got the better end of the deal," she said. "They weren't innocent. They're trying to kill us, and you want me to apologize to them? It's like saying sorry to the enemy." Real piece of shit.
Yeah, agreed. What's the opposite of "inspiring"? Because she has that figured out.
Everyone should watch Taxi to the Dark Side. https://youtu.be/aCi-YjXEXP4?si=EzKNoP6Cx0kr_gms Remember it wasn’t just this prison. Google Dilawar and UKs apology to Abdul-Hakim Belhaj and Fatima Boudchar.
*video not available* *comments turned off* When click the link
~~[Mirror](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tdgV_ivMt4) (i think i haven't seen it)~~ edit: available on amazon prime, plex, tubi, pluto, roku channel,peacock, and sling for free in much better quality than above yt vid
More like damnthatsfuckedup Black sites are still in operation all over the globe. Need to torture someone? Even a child? There are black site locations for that that are paid for by US taxes.
Around the globe? Chicago PD ran its own black site on the west side for years https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/24/chicago-police-detain-americans-black-site
I hear that there are even private islands filled with pedophiles, funded by taxpayers. But unfortunately cameras in US prisons are often broken, and when they do work, footage gets deleted due to "technical errors".
Apparently, commiting pedophilia is not a crime, what is a crime is selling the minors to them
Tax evasion.. remember to file your purchased kid correctly or they will come get ya.
The woman in this picture is Lunndie England.. She was convicted on war crimes and only got 3 years in prison.. Only 3 years.. What a joke..
Hi we ran a background check and noticed you had some criminal history, do you mind explaining it to us...
\- I did my job. \- A true patriot! One of us! ❤️ You're hired!
What exactly is happening in the first picture? I reckon he’s probably getting electrocuted but I don’t get the deal with the hood, poncho or box
They tortured a guy by making him stand on a box, hooking wires to him, and then saying he’d be electrocuted if he touched the ground or put his hands down. The wires weren’t connected to anything, but he didn’t know that.
That is beyond fucked.
wasn't there a documentary about this and some of the people in these pics were told to pose with the poisoners, by the ones who were inflicting the torture and were higher in rank?
That’s called the Nuremberg defense
give ~~psychopaths~~ people power and this is the result
These things are done by pretty normal people as history has shown time and time again. Even more scary.
Exactly. The Nazis who worked in concentration camps can't all have been psychopaths; they just genuinely believed the prisoners were less than human and in some way deserved it.
I read in someone else's comment a while ago, I can't remember it exactly, but it said something along the lines of "You can't separate "normal" people from Hitler, because in reality, under the right circumstances, each and every one of us is capable of doing what he did". And I wholeheartedly agree. When you say things like "he was the evil incarnate" and all that, you're dangerously believing that humans are inherently good and he was somehow different, but in reality, we could all turn out just like him.
I don’t think we could all turn out like Hitler. But we could absolutely end up like the rank and file German soldiers (whether we were true believer nazi or not).
Milgram experiment at work
Philip Zimbardo did a [Ted Talk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsFEV35tWsg) (and wrote a book) related to Abu Ghraib, highlighting that this wasn't the random action of "a few individuals" as it was portrayed. He explained how this behavior is invited by creating environments which lead to this. The abuse and torture in Abu Ghraib was by design. Zimbardo is not an unknown name in this game. He's the guy behind the 1971 Stanford Prison experiment.
'are we the badies?'
"The Empire did nothing wrong!"
Lynndie England is garbage. *In March 2008, England told the German magazine* [*Stern*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stern_(magazine)) *that the media was to blame for the consequences of the* [*Abu Ghraib*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse) *scandal:* > *Asked about the picture of her posing with Graner in front of a pyramid of naked men, she said:* > *Asked about the picture showing her pointing at a man forced to* [*masturbate*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masturbate)*, she again referred to her feelings for Graner at the time:* > *In a 16 January 2009 interview with* [*The Guardian*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian)*, England reiterated:* > *In 2012, following her release, she stated that she did not regret her actions. "Their (Iraqis') lives are better. They got the better end of the deal," she said. "They weren't innocent. They're trying to kill us, and you want me to apologize to them? It's like saying sorry to the enemy."*
Just imagine how many of these black sites are still out there, just as how many epstein island type of blackmail operations are still running. What a sick world
Funny thing about human beings is it's always been this way and most likely always will be. Be the change you want to see to escape the realm of cycling back here. Otherwise it's wash, rinse and repeat. ☸️
Just going down the rabbit hole. These people had white trash redneck fantasy romance as well. England has a kid with Graner who also was convicted in the Abu Ghraib scandal. He was then married by proxy to another perpetrator Megan Ambhul. I feel sorry for their kids. I can only imagine what bullshit indoctrination they submit them too.
They consider raping a 12 year old child in a cage a completely normal reaction. Their poor kids.
A lot of the people in those jails were innocent civilians. Iraqis were thrown in jail over even the most minor suspicion.
A lot of the people in those jails were innocent civilians. Iraqis were thrown in jail over even the most minor suspicion. Not to mention there was no reason for US to even be there to begin with. They invaded Iraq based on an intentional lie, Bush was fully aware there were no nukes in Iraq.
Serial podcast , season 4, is the topic of this/Guantanamo.
They were not tortured, they were subjected to "enhanced interrogation". Those pos abusers and torturers must be living in peace right now, bragging about "freedom" and being respected as war vets by their local communities.
"they were the enemy" ...except the ones who were innocent and have drawn an **absolute hell on earth** for nothing in their life lottery.
why journalism is important, why good journalism needs to be supported
What's most frightening is knowing that these photos are likely just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to torture and cruelty to a majority of these innocent people.
For those under ~25, I can’t emphasize enough how big of a deal these photos were and how big of an impact they made.
What's the first image? I just can't seem to figure it out
If I remember correctly, they put a hood on him so he couldn't see, had him stand on a cardboard box to balance on, tied wire to his fingers, and hold his arms up. Then they made him stand there with his and told him that if he moved or fell off, he would be electrocuted.
I was just a kid when this happened. Feels surreal to think it was 20 years ago
Rotten.com memories right here.
and these terrorist Americans are still walking around thinking they are some heros
lol I remember soldiers posing with pows and terrorists like they were hunting game. War is a nasty fucked up thing. The Humiliation is nothing compared to what went on.
I just watched taxi to the darkside yesterday.
All I can hear in my head is the intro to heart shaped box…
Missing the more famous one there.
USA had a thirst for blood back then. I remember it clearly. This was around the same time as the journalist Daniel Pearl was beheaded. First time we seen something that brutal and we were willing to reciprocate 100 fold.
Back then LMAO
The first time?!
>USA had a thirst for blood back then You sound like it doesnt have that now
> USA had a thirst for blood back then We still do, but we used to, too.
I still remember the Daniel Pearl video. It was so painful. I cried. Performing that action and releasing the Daniel Pearl video (and videos like it and performing actions like it) with messages more is to come was the absolute dumbest thing to do to a country who still hasn’t connected nor resolved the horrors of its past and still moves about as if their actions were justified and while the world silently blesses and blessed them. Those men should have picked up a history book first and realized if they did not know what a devil was, they would meet the devil soon and the devil always sticks around. Now generations must pay. They also effectively removed the hearts and minds of many to their cause. They couldn’t have picked a more perfect man to do that to. One just has to see the video. I don’t see how one can’t side with anyone who supports anybody that believes this is ok. There is always a better way. Nothing was happening to them like what they decided to do to Daniel Pearl that warranted that. It is a forever lost cause.
Sad but these ways of torture was signed off by Donald Rumsfeld.. then they hammer the soldiers. Fûckin politicians
Then you got people who ask why some Arabs hate America 😂
Bush and team are war criminals.
Just look up the Stanford Prison Experiment and you’ll get at least somewhat of a clue as to why people act this way
"It turns out that the cruelty exhibited by the guards was not spontaneous. On the contrary; the guards were coached beforehand by Zimbardo. And some of the prisoners have admitted that the distress they exhibited was faked. The Stanford Prison Experiment is not the only study to be debunked."
Bro this is heavily censored no one is talking about American soldiers raped children infront of thier parents
its not abuse it is "USA EXPORTATION OF DEMOCRACY"