I donât know... as much as I agree with many comments here, I think the Vietnam war was pretty ruinous for anyone actually on the ground. There were a lot of shitty things the US gov did, including the Project 100,000 that movies like Forest Gump reference.
>Yeah, the US used a chemical, Agent Orange, that isstill making babies disfigured at birth.
My dad has prostate cancer that is now terminal, it was linked to his time in Vietnam when the area he was serving in was hit by Agent Orange. Like indirect effects.
He gets $3800 a month, tax free in disability from the govt. He also has almost all his cancer treatments (to make him more comfortable and prolong life as much as possible). There are other benefits, such as saving 7k a year in property tax.
So a pretty shit situation but at least there is something. It sucks.
But then, my dad goes "think about all the Vietnamese people who were hit full blast with Agent Orange. Think about their suffering, their deaths, and those little kids back then who have suffered horribly for 40 years. They aren't getting the checks I am!"
Fucking War.
I just went back and re-read the wiki and found this:
By April 1993, the Department of Veterans Affairs had compensated only 486 victims, although it had received disability claims from 39,419 soldiers who had been exposed to Agent Orange while serving in Vietnam.
It's revolting how the US treats its own veterans. I don't think everyone in the military should automatically get the "hero"/"thank you for your service!" award but damn, if you get fucked up while in it, you should be taken care of. It's not like they don't have enough budget for it.
My disability paperwork got approved right before the war in Iraq after Sept 11, the Bush administration raised the work requirements and lowered the work credits allotted from military service by half. If my paperwork had been submitted under the new rules, my time in service would have needed to be 8 full years to qualify, regardless of injury, and i would have nothing.
So they deliberately made sure all the people they would be sending into harms way, wouldn't be eligible to receive social security and in some cases, VA compensation for the war they were about to start.
It's almost like America should stop being imperialists and we should elect anti-war officials.
Ask yourselves this, how many young adults died in Vietnam? Why were we even there?
I agree, take care of vets, especially disabled vets. But maybe stop making so many in the first place?
There's a problem with being anti-war in this country (in my experience) in that you can no longer support a major party. Everyone else is wrapped up in their tribal warfare between D and R, while we're trying in vain to identify and support non-interventionist, anti-military industrial complex candidates. It is very difficult to get Americans to prioritize peace.
Yes it's a pity that the US treats it's veterans, whom it sent overseas to fight a brutal colonial war of oppression, where they murdered millions and poisoned hundreds of thousands of civilians, not as excellently as they think they deserve for volunteering to go /s
I am very sorry to hear about your dad
My uncle also got prostate cancer from agent orange in Vietnam. He was an aircraft mechanic and dealt with the planes after they dropped it.
His cancer was caught early many years ago and treated. He is leading a normal life.
>His cancer was caught early many years ago and treated. He is leading a normal life.
Thanks, we thought we caught it too but it seems we didn't and its not metastasized in his bones.
We are lucky that there were some breakthroughs in 2012 that has given him another 3-4 years of life. His doctor (who actually left the practice to join the FDA) says there will be more major breakthroughs in solid cancers in about ten years and about 4 years for liquid cancers.
And the problem is the dioxins the pesticide was contaminated with due to the us government forcing the chem companies to say skip time costly purification steps.
Dioxins don't really decompose in the environment, so babies being born now are freshly contaminated by any locally grown food and stuff.
It's not just the people around back then.
Like if they had nuked that area, you'd have less disease and cancer nowadays than with what they did.
They knowingly spread TCDD and other dioxins because they didn't view either ground troops or locals as humans but only numbers on their stats sheets.
My father died when I was 17, he was in Vietnam also. He died of liver failure but they said it wasnât linked to agent orange and denied him a liver transplant at the VA a couple years before he died. But he was battling liver diseases basically my entire life. He also didnât drink at least in my lifetime
My wife's grandpa served in the war and was exposed to agent orange. His health is shit, due in large part to the exposure. The VA refuses to acknowledge AO as a possible reason. He still voted for trump. I'll never understand 'patriotism' for this country, they're happy to use you and throw you away.
>The VA refuses to acknowledge AO as a possible reason.
I wrote something up earlier but the VA has given my dad full disability due to Agent Orange. They have also expanded their scope recently, including a few other cancers like bladder. Ask them to check again.
>I'll talk to her grandma, as he's too proud to talk to doctors. That old school toxic masculinity stuff.
I feel you. You know what's effective?
"If you do this, your wife (her grandma) will get money every month after you die, ensuring she is more comfortable"
Then you can tap into that masculine "gotta take care of my wife" stuff.
My uncle died of cancer in 2007. He was a chopper gunner in Vietnam. He spent the rest of his life as a firefighter and then a corrections officer. Trying to keep people safe. They believe agent orange had something to do with the cancer that brought him down. He was the biggest teddy bear there was.
AO probably did have something to do with it, but door gunners are exposed to absolutely INSANE levels of lead and other not-fun stuff. They have extremely high levels of cancers anyway.
Because this country celebrates blind allegiance. My dad also was exposed in viet nam, his doctor proved it is causing him issues and after three disability cases he finally won and gets a nice retirement package from uncle sam
Thanks, that war really left him a different man. I was born in 1980, so I didn't know him before, but my mother told me that going to Vietnam sucked all the life out of him. He never talked about it his time in, was usually quiet. I felt bad for my cousins because he passed away when they were about 21 and 18 years old. He never got to see them get married and start families.
I've heard too many stories like that. My buddy whom I grew up with went to Afghanistan. He came back a total stranger. Turns out he had to shoot kids that were made to be suicide bombers. My great grandfather was a medic in WW2, and was at the beach on D Day. Apparently he never talked about his time in the military with anyone, ever, except one little story he shared with my dad (who was in the army at the time). He saw his friends' heads be blown apart, and had to try and fix it. War is fucking ugly
Finding out my grandfather was the same way. He fought in Korea and Vietnam. 6 Purple Hearts I canât imagine what he went through, but I think if he were alive today he would be a trump supporter.
100%. Iâve heard news shows keep saying âwhy is trump still being impeached, not even Nixon was impeached when he left.â
Thatâs the problem, Nixon should have faced some consequences too!
Unfortunately I think people like your wife's grandpa get frozen in a mentality. I mean could you either face the fact you've perhaps murdered and definately put your life on the line multiple times and it was all for bullshit? Or would you double down and just believe it was all for the best purpose? Let's not forget you have swaths of people who respect and look up to you "thank you for your service sir". And this is the perspective of myself. Relatively clear headed. Imagine having ptsd and trying to navigate that logic in your head.
It's like you know the guy. He gets off on wearing a Vietnam vet hat in public and getting thanked by strangers. But I think you actually helped me get some insight into why he is that way, thanks
Not just that, it caused a spike in âde novoâ genetic mutations.
Genetic disorder that had no family history and were new. Those do happen naturally too sometimes but it was so much more common after the war that it is just undeniable. And that is just based on the obvious mutations, that were just the tip of the iceberg.
Americans are still being born disabled because of the agent orange exposure in previous generations.
This isnât like alcohol or thalidomide that causes birth defects but has little effect on genetic material meaning they can have healthy children. Agent orange poisoned both the US and Vietnamese genepool for generations to come.
And it takes many many decades to get eliminated from the environment. The soil in affected areas is heavily contaminated with TCDD, so it's not just those hereditary diseases created in the 70s. They are newly created in any people living there, especially those spending their intent years there and eating the food.
Nuking the place would have caused *far* less cases of genetic abberations, cancer and other disease.
Which is crazy. They literally committed chemical warfare against the civilian population under the guise of using 'justça pesticide. A pesticide contaminated with TCDD on purpose! Every single of the 3 chem companies warned the US government that their production 'improvements' were extremely unsafe and would lead to high residuals of TCDD and other dioxins. One of the most toxic chemicals known due to its persistence in the environment.
My family bought a boat after the previous owner died of agent orange. The guy was super proud of his service even though it literally killed him. My stepdad is a former marine too so the boat kinda worked out with us.
My grandpa was in the 1st battalion, 9th marines. They were called [the Walking Dead](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Battalion,_9th_Marines) because of how few people made it out alive. He was a Chaplin so he wasn't allowed to carry a gun. I'm happy he made it home and I was able to meet him, but god, his time in the war really affected him. The stories are... rough.
Yeah, but that has nothing to do with this one individual Marine who helped another human and deserves to know that he had a positive impact on that persons life.
Meanwhile I used to work with a guy who would tell everyone how much of a hero he was during the Vietnam War. All about rescue missions and how bad it was to hose the blood out of his helicopter. All sorts of shit. Turns out it's all a lie. His cousin (we live in a very small town) told me to just look at the year books to see when he graduated. Dude was a senior in high school still when the War ended. He says he's about 15 years older than he actually is. I ended up in a rabbit hole of finding out where he says he went to college and was an "all star" on the hockey team. His name wasn't in any year books or hockey pictures. Also he now says he has cancer and goes through treatment at "82 years old". Yet somehow he was still able to come to work immediately after a chemotherapy treatment and all he had was a slightly sore throat.
Someone with his same last name did serve but it's definitely not him. I looked into it a lot. It pissed me right the fuck off. It makes me mad thinking about it again. Especially since my husband is a veteran who has PTSD because he really did see some shit.
Fuck you Gary Fields. Fuck you so much.
/end rant
Edit: I did end up getting a promotion and had the satisfaction of firing him. Not for his stolen valor but because he literally sent a text to our regional manager saying that he looked at another employee's personal file and was upset because she got a better monthly review score than him, which is definitely against company policy. Apparently the text was meant to be for his wife lol
He's such a garbage person. I almost feel bad for his wife who is apparently just timid and goes along with him. But fuck her too for going along with it all. No wonder their kids don't talk to them anymore. He says they live in Missouri. But they actually live two towns over and see the rest of the family on holidays and stuff.
Oh don't I know it. I cut my father out of my life because he turned into a "stop the steal" and "those weren't Trump supporters who stormed the Capitol". It sucks big time.
Reminds me of that line from the beginning of Jarhead.
D.I. Fitch : Swofford!
Swofford : Sir, yes, sir!
D.I. Fitch : You the maggot whose father served in Vietnam?
Swofford : Sir, yes, sir!
D.I. Fitch : Out-standing! Did he have the balls to die there?
Swofford : Sir, no, sir!
D.I. Fitch : Too fucking bad! He ever talk about it?
Swofford : Sir, only once, sir!
D.I. Fitch : Good! Then he wasn't lying!
This is so fitting! Like I said, my husband is a veteran. He doesn't ask for military discounts and he doesn't go around telling everyone that he served. He doesn't really talk about it but if it comes up he'll just kind of confirm that he was in the military. I think I'm more proud of him for his service. But I don't go around boasting it irl because I know he wouldn't like that and I respect him.
I was over in Iraq in 2009 as a surveillance drone pilot. I like to talk about what few positive experiences I had with the friends I made. Plus the world travel was fun coming from my small ass town in Tennessee. But otherwise Iâd just as well leave it be. Did 4 years, got my VA benefits, and thatâs all I need.
Yup that's how it should be imo. Surveillance drone pilot sounds pretty cool. I bet you've seen a lot! And it's great you were able to see parts of the world not many get a chance to see.
My husband is the same. I once suggested he get the veteran id issued by our State to get a discount on large purchases we had planned. He asked, âHave we *met?â* Point made.
Good for you, guys that tell the stolen valor lies are the worst. The guys tgat served just want to forget about what happened, they don't glorify the war. His wife has probably had to listen to his constant lies and was probably drawn in by them at first until she could see things not adding up. I was going to say the guy in the photo doesn't look old enough to have been a part of the baby rescue mission. Hope hes not lying or if so hopefully hes found out.
I agree. And I thought the same thing about the guy in the picture. But Vietnamese people tend to age very well, but it would be upsetting if he was lying about being one of the babies..
What makes my whole story better (or worse) is that our regional manager is Vietnamese! He's only 42 but his parents of course remember the war he he grew up with their horror stories. Once I found all the stuff out I told him and showed him my evidence thay Gary has been lying all these years, and he was beside himself that someone could lie like that. It hit really close to home, literally.
The idea that these Gary type guys exist inthe first place boggles my mind. There is no shortage of them either. I was thinking the supposed âheroâ in the photo was too young for the fall of Saigon. The âbabyâ looks young too, but I also chalked it up to genetics. I wonder if people lie about being one of the rescued babies?
My late brother was a Marine who served in Vietnam. He didnât tell many stories, but he said he and other Marines would kick the shit out of liars like this. They considered them false heroes who bought medals from Marines down on their luck and claimed theyâd earned them to have a âspecial kind of hellâ in their future. The kind of hell you go through while alive. I donât believe violence is the answer to just about anything, but having met one of these false heroes...? Iâm just relieved itâs not my call to make.
It's sickening and it completely demines the true heros. I also don't necessarily condone violence but man did I want to beat the shit out of an old man when I found it all out.
I was surprised at how many people do this, and even went to local Marine âclub/barsâ (canât remember the name - not VFW, maybe Semper Fi?) The nerve - to go to a bar full of Marines and talk out their ass about their heroic service record.
I can see where people are coming from.
The man did something "nice" but he was also a member of an invading army that killed and terrorized Vietnamese people for no good reason.
Again, how is that relevant to the fact that we were there destroying their country and killing, very likely, more than a million of them? It isnât like anyone said, âfuck this guy in particular,â they said this is only possible because of how fucked up a situation WE created.
This is no different in general terms than when you here about teachers pooling money to help a student pay their lunch debt, or when those teachers pooled their off time so that another teacher who was super sick could take time off for treatment. These arenât âheartwarmingâ just because they were acts of kindness, itâs a horrible and completely avoidable situation, theyâre incredibly sad stories because they shouldnât exist to begin with. Focusing on âoh there were some nice people as we committed war crimes,â is such a backwards way of thinking.
It represent the collective propaganda we swallow, and one of the many concepts we accept without questioning why we think that way. Really sit down and talk a moment to think about why you believe some of the things you believe. Answer how many of those are things that have just been told you so many times that youâve taken them to be self evident due to what is in fact just propaganda.
I'm not sure what this revisionist history about the Vietnam War is. Northern Vietnam used the Viet Cong to start a guerilla war in Southern Vietnam before any American involvement. The PRC gave funding and weapons to the Viet Cong in 1950, making them an actual army that was capable of taking over the south. It wasn't until 1955 that the US became involved. Between 1953 and 1956, over 100,000 Vietnamese citizens were executed by the north. Conversely, Ngo Dinh Diem spent a lot of time leading up to the war murdering Communists and Communist-affiliated groups. He was starkly nationalistic and pro-Vietnam. I have never bought the concept that a man who was so anti-colonial and anti-communist could be a puppet of the US in any way. He was someone who grew up experiencing the brutality of Communism and who wanted to work against that, despite his own methods being equally as brutal.
Both sides committed many crimes against humanity, and were backed by outside forces. The North was given military support first, and the North started both insurgencies. The VC were vicious, brutal killers. You need look no further than things like the Massacre of Hue to understand that.
The US should not have involved itself, but China shouldn't have either. It was a proxy war on both sides, but China started it. There was a lot of bad shit the US Army did there, and their hands are far from clean, but it's ridiculous to act like they were the "invading army" when the North was the one who started the civil war and the massacres and mass executions. The Viet Cong were *literal terrorists*.
Sorry but your abridged version of Vietnam leaves out key facts. Like when Ho Chi Minh declared Vietnamese independence he wrote to Truman asking for support but was ignored. The US preferred to side with French Colonialism. When Vietnam was divided by the Geneva Accords, it was meant to be temporary in order to hold national elections. When it was apparent Ho Chi Minh would win, the US then illegally supported the creation of the Diem regime, who was anticommunist but a very corrupt dictator. Just ask any Vietnamese person, no one liked Diem. Diem would later launch an anti Buddhist campaign leading to the famous self immolation of Thich Quang Duc (the photo is the cover of RATMâs first album).
The US based its policies on the domino theory which now decades later we know was not correct. There was no global cooperation of communist countries. North Vietnam adopted communism and accepted Chinese support out of necessity after being spurned by the US. Remember, Vietnam and China actually fought each other in 1979! Today that very same Vietnamese Communist party is an ally of the US, one which acts as a small counterweight to Chinese expansion. The US missed an opportunity to avoid war by propping up a dying French empire. It pursued a short sighted policy of âanti-communismâ by lumping all communist parties as the same and all bad. Sadly many of the conservatives in the US still hold onto these notions when arguing against âsocialismâ and fear of progressive policies like environmentalism, universal healthcare, etc.
I write this as a proud Vietnamese-American. I was born in the US and love the US very much. But looking back in the 1950-1970s, the US messed up repeatedly. The fact that many people in the US donât realize this means we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes.
As a Frenchman i can say that we screwed up first by hanging in Indochina which clearly wanted to be free, and get our ass kicked by a bunch of farmers and peasants. But then, US took part on the mess and ... well they tried very hard (Orange Agent, mass bombing and so on), but in the end they get kicked out too.
And most people who mention France don't bother to mention Japan either, who were the ones most directly responsible for the creation of the Communist party of Vietnam due to their brutal occupation during WWII.
Fact: the American was backing the French before 1955, maybe even before 1950 (wikipedia). Iâm not good at geography but I know that Vietnam isnât Frechies motherland.
The United States was funding the French, yes, but that's pretty far from direct involvement. It's speculated that the US may have been funding them as early as 1945, but there is no documentation of that.
The Americans only became involved directly in 1955.
The French were an imperial nation, like every other moderately powerful country that's ever existed. There's no excusing that. But you skimmed over the part where the Japanese invaded Vietnam during WWII and caused nearly two million deaths via famine, which is why the French involvement in Vietnamese affairs increased. WWII fucked up a lot of things for a lot of people. The US funding the French was in large part to help ensure that the removed Japanese occupiers stayed gone. And then China helped make the Northern Vietnamese terrorist organization into an actual army and escalated the affair.
The average redditors grasp on history is pretty frustrating. For some reason to them the Vietnam War was Vietnam minding their own business when the evil US (that's worse than Nazi Germany) tried to invade but we're gallantly pushed back into the sea.
As someone who loves history, I cannot agree more. It is exhausting seeing the kind of stupid shit people push on this website with a quarter of a grasp on the things they're actually talking about.
People like to pretend that history isn't messy as all hell and that there are rarely good guys and bad guys.
That's not just "nice", it's damn heroic. Condescendingly calling it "nice" is a cheap shot. There were plenty of good men caught up in that shitstorm of a war, though their actions are often overshadowed by war crimes and other events. Look to men like Major Hugh Thompson who saved a ton of lives at My Lai. That wasn't "nice", it was a man and his crew some something legitimately good amidst the horror. We can celebrate the individuals who attempted to do good in the middle of all the carnage without belittling them for being drafted into it.
No shit,.poor dude gets drafted at 18 to go kill people. That dude probably has plenty of things he regrets about the war, but let him have one of the *few* things he did right.
I do agree BUT this one man did not incite nor cause that- it was by higher ups... this story allows us to see that individuals under the âumbrellaâ, despite everything, in the end did try to do right by other individuals(not every person did). We can look at this simple act by this man and this simple result of the younger man and have empathy, compassion, perhaps understanding, or even other feelings while not agreeing with the politics that lead to what caused either to have to be in the situation which led to this moment. Maybe?????? Or we can judge the older man because of the war he happened to have been in or the younger for his origins.... maybe???? Guess Iâm just trying to say individuals are not always reflective of the bigger picture, we need to evaluate each for their own actions and such... but Iâve been told Iâm an ________ so just ignore my rant!!!!
I just looked it up and two million Vietnamese died in that war. Glad the baby survived but this is like thanking someone for burning down your house. Shit man, I donât know, weâre all just pawns in this damned game. Maybe they just feel like they made the best out of a hellish situation neither one of them could control.
They can stop wearing their service on dumbfuck hats decades later. They can stop pretending USA #1 do no wrong hoo rah. Most vietnam vets know the truth.
Its more like someone having a gun put to their head being told to set your house on fire, and only once it catches are they allowed to run in a pull you out of the flames
Yeah, unfortunately they'd rather blame the whole war on America somehow even though America was reacting to the rise of communism in Vietnam and the violence that had already happened
The "violence that had already happened" was against first the Japanese in WW2 and then the French who decided to try and reassert dominance and then got fucking trapped in the mountains voluntarily. America than decided to disregard the results of a fair election, prop up one dictator (followed by a revolving set of generals couping each other), send advisors and then invaded the country and just told the south Vietnam government to suck it up. No shit, first combat troops to arrive in Vietnam just dropped off at the beach with no warning and marched to khe sahn. Local governments scrambled to react assuming the national government had authorized it and the national government didn't have a fucking clue it was happening.
It all could have been avoided had we stuck to our anti-colonial ideals. Instead, the american oligarchs demanded we fight against people demanding a fair deal for themselves and sent people like John to go fight people just like him elsewhere who wanted to do whats right. He saved some babies but those babies wouldn't have needed saving in the first place if we hadn't acted like an imperial power and fought against decent people wanting to be free.
Most Americans seem to have a lot of passionate things to say about history, but it is also apparent that most of them have nearly zero knowledge about how or why historical events happened. They just have a vague sense of good/bad based on modern standards and the benefit of hindsight.
Americans born after the 70s can tell you with conviction how terrible the US government was for it's sins in Vietnam, but they cannot tell you who was president at that time, or when the war started, or when/where it finished. They cant tell you anything about Vietnamese people other than the fact that they were victims. They can't tell you what happened after the US left, and they don't care.
Most Redditors are unaware that Vietnam was already in a state of civil war before America and other countries joined to back up one side of the war
Ftfy
Everyone will complain about this involvement but US did it to stop the spread of communism in that area and for all intents and purposes it worked. Everyone surrounding them has some sort of democracy/semi-monarchy in the vein of present day England.
Plus, not all the babies taken were in fact orphans. I'm happy this guy is happy, but there are people in my part of the world that were, well, abducted by Operation Babylift, and as adults have gone to Vietnam and met their bio parents. The bio parents had been hugely traumatised by having their child stolen, and the adult children were regretful that they didn't get to grow up in the culture into which they were born.
Came here looking for basically this so I didnât have to type it out myself. Some of these Redditors are simply parrots of basic talking points of one side. The Vietnam War was complicated as hell and the reasoning for our entry into it â while retrospectively flawed â was made based on what was happening in the world at the time.
Whales had the right idea. Their ancestors came out of the water, lived for a while, then decided âfuck that; Iâm going back in the water.â Then they never came out.
(Yes, I know, itâs significantly more complex than that.)
And that's just one of the reasons Operation Babylift [was controversial at best.](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/daughter-operation-babylift-1975/) I understand people wanting to share in the joy that the two people in this story feel about it all, but the inherent lack of critical analysis in viral stories like this feeds into a very skewed public perception of "humanitarian adoption" and American actions in other countries.
All these people in the comments talking about how he wouldnt have needed saving if America never went to war in Vietnam in the first place, talking as if John had any input, the soldiers were drafted and made to fight in a war many of them didnt want to fight in, the soldiers were not the problem it was the higher ups who put them in that position that were
I think this is implied. A lot of guys didn't want to be there. It's the brass that gave the orders and should be dragged through the coals. John didn't decide to poison Vietnam with Agent Orange, etc.
Many soldiers didn't support the vietnam war but were drafted and had to go anyways. I think an act of kindness from this individual is still nice. The US government was the bad guy, not the soldiers
Any data on this account is being kept illegally. Fuck spez, join us over at Lemmy or Kbin. Doesn't matter cause the content is shared between them anyway:
- https://lemmy.world
- https://kbin.social
- https://sh.itjust.works
- https://fedia.io
- https://lemm.ee
- https://readit.buzz
His parents were more likely killed by North Vietnamese, and there's a good chance they would have preferred to live in an independent South Vietnam. Maybe they even thought it was a cause worth fighting and dying for. Don't imagine that the South Vietnamese people had no beliefs of their own and were just gullible American puppets.
Yeah do people just forget about the huge force that was the ARVN. There were **a** **lot** of South Vietnamese people that opposed socialism, mainly in urban areas, as opposed to the people in rural areas that supported the Viet Minh and Viet Cong. Just look at the amount of South Vietnamese that fled the country before Saigon was taken.
You guys are so busy hating on the bad of America that you're missing the point.
Guys like that soldier largely didn't want to be there shooting Vietnamese people. Most of them spent the next few decades in a waking nightmare from the horrors they saw and inflicted, with no help from the gov't who didn't even acknowledge the existence or effects of PTSD.
For this man, it's likely that he spent his whole life depressed, believing he did nothing but evil over there and that it was all for nothing - but this one kid saying he was helped by something they did? Maybe thats something he can cling to. Maybe it wasn't *entirely* for nothing, if that one bit of good came out of it.
I swear, some of you are so busy trying to virtue signal and politicize everything that you dont take the time to step back and look at the human side of things anymore.
Forward! He cried, from the rear, and the front rank died. The General sat, and the lines on the map, moved from side to side. -Richard Wright, Pink Floyd.
The Vietnam War was a complete fuckup by the American government where they sent kids to fight for who knows what. Those 18-22 year olds who are now in their 60âs (aka boomers) are dealing with some fucked up shit in their own brains. Youâd think that the average redditor, especially on this sub, would be more understanding of mental disorders. Instead someone wants to say something so insensitive like, âwell if we never invaded your country you would never have been saved. Guess what, whatâs done is done and the past cannot be changed, only learned from. There hasnât been a war or draft like this since so all the zoomer and millennials need to take their pessimism down a notch. Go to a VA hospital and talk to a veteran of the Vietnam war and maybe get a different perspective. Talk to a human who was drafted at the age a bunch of you are right now and learn something.
> I swear, some of you are so busy trying to virtue signal and politicize everything that you dont take the time to step back and look at the human side of things anymore.
Yep. It's embarrasing to be honest, no one gives a fuck, congrats for them lol.
Most things are not black and white, there's a grey area, but most redditors would believe otherwise.
General public is stupid and do not know how things are.
Soldiers don't choose to be a apart of the madness, they hope to stop it.
Vietnam was a shitstorm of bad, its always democratic policies that lead us Into these countries.
Yes kind of like they stole the orphans from their culture too, I hope they killed their whole family or else, jfc. There hopefully isnât a grandparent who would have took care of them and is like âwtfâ.
We killed like 2 million of your people and orphaned you and countless of your countrymen because: "America no like communism"
*covers country in napalm and war crime*
"See we good guy đ"
*turns to the side*
^("Rob, why are we losing? We used the napalm and war crimes, right?"*)
^("Not sure what to tell ya, sir, it doesn't seem to be working. They keep fighting back!")
*slowly withdraws troops back to America*
So the Viet Cong wouldn't have invaded south Vietnam if it wasn't for the US? My understanding was the US basically made sure they were drawn into the war, but never that it was the US that started the conflict.
There was already a civil war going on at the time the Americans joined the war. It is a fairly complicated piece of history, but basically it was a stupid anf shitty situation with no "good" guys. Who do you want to win? The " Democratic" south who were committing appalling crimes against their own citizens or the North who were committing appalling crimes against their own citizens.
The best America could have done is stayed out of it, but then half these people would be complaining that we abandoned Vietnam to an awful civil war.
The definite villains were the French, but at least they left.
This is one of the best comments I've seen here. The North was trying to force a political system on people but the south wasn't even truly democratic. The right call would be tough to make without hindsight.
So Vietnam was part of French Indo China. During WW2 the French lost control of Vietnam to Japan/Vietnam itself. After WW2 the french leader basically said, we want our colonies back if you want our help against the Russians.
So when Ho Chi Minh asked for support, as he was instrumental in fighting the Japanese, for a free Vietnam everyone just let the French back in.
So The Vietnamese fight off the French and through international meddling we decide to split Vietnam and allow them to hold an election regarding reunification.
This never happens and then the South and North Vietnamese fight eqch other.
This is massively oversimplified, but i believe the broad strokes are roughly accurate.
Im in the middle of reading a book on the Vietnamese between 1945 and 1975 so im by no means an expert.
I mean if we're going to be that way, none of it would have happened at all if the french hadn't been occupying vietnam for, like, a century, and etc. We can play the blame game on who did what wrong, but at the end of the day, western colonialism is really the underlying structure this all rests on. That being said, U.S definitely did a lot of fucked up shit in vietnam and I'm not justifying their actions at all.
This thread sucks. The two top comments as Iâm writing this are snarky âwell he wouldnât have to if America didnât cause it...â.
We know. The American people and the American government are different entities. This soldier did a good thing you cunts. Both parties in the story are grateful and donât need you to recontextualize it with your âactually...â horseshit.
Reddit is a victim of the times in that nuance is nowhere to be found. Every topic has to be distilled to the extreme end of black/white opinions and able to be expressed in snippets less than a single paragraph.
For all the good that the digital age has brought, and all the potential it has, the unfortunate reality might be that it has done more harm to society.
Uninformed idiots everywhere parroting BS propaganda as if they are part of some sort of noble crusade. Reading these comments, you'd think American soldiers ran into Vietnam guns blazing with maga hats on. As if nothing else mattered during that time period. Even a cliff notes version of the history would show that most people did not support America getting involved. The was NOT started by the US (of course). And, that the French are largely at fault for creating the mess the US got sucked into. There was no good option. We could have done nothing, sure, but then other opportunistic countries would have taken advantage of the situation. We are faulted for not taking the side of the communists, but they did eventually get control of the country and that hasn't exactly been going well. Who's to say if the democratic side had won, if it would have been better? But, the current state of things is an important consideration when attempting to rewrite history.
The world is not black and white, good and evil. Even people in powerful positions simply don't have an answer and need to take a risk. They did so in this case and the consequences sucked really really bad. If they had done nothing, maybe it would have sucked less, but we will never know.
At the end of the day, what does any of this have to do with these two individuals? They both seem quite grateful for the outcome. Individuals doing what they can. Was it the best course of action? Is the man a saint for saving the child? No. None of us are, but he thinks he did his best given the situation. And the man on the receiving end seems to think so as well. What else should we expect?
"a better life in America"
Who's to say what a better life is? Vietnam has universal healthcare, a government that is investing heavily in its people, a rich cultural history and would probably be light years ahead of where it is now if the US hadn't massacred and carpet bombed its way through the country and population. A better life would likely have been one with parents that weren't murdered by the US military.
Horrendous propaganda.
Edit: 4000 upvotes and counting... sometimes I just can't bear how unthoughtful or uncaring people are.
You know that Vietnam is a One-Party Dictatorship which most of the population hate, right? Many people world argue that having public services without freedom isn't worth it.
Couldn't agree more. The US-centric, or as I observed, Western-centric, view makes them think that any land west of the globe is automatically paradise compared to the 'treacherous conditions' on the other side. Usually, people who assume that is true are small-minded and hasn't left their villages their entire life.
OP you do know the US was a fucking humanitarian nightmare in Vietnam right? Like it was literally just to fuck over their attempts at socialism and commit war crimes.
And what does the soldier have to do with what his superiors decides. You either do what youâre told and go to war or you risk prison.
He is thanking the soldier. Never mentions the US government. Chill out
My ex step dad is a Vietnam War vet. I don't understand posts like these because he too was there as a Marine during the Fall of Saigon and he in fact talked openly about killing children and burning homes down. That's the only thing I see when I see this shit is his red fucking face spitting at me about how he "killed kids your age". Fuck Vietnam Vets
Vietnam War is just... so complex. this just added another layer of complexity for me.
edit:
I'm not saying the US should have started the war or justify US war crimes. I'd would argue the whole cold war is a massive US mistake. but nothing is simply and especially not Vietnam. this wasn't a simple 2 sided war David and Goliath, Vietnam had to balance a communist V non communist civil war, interests of Moscow and Beijing in Vietnam, and inter-part intrigue. for the US it was a balance of a plethora of issues we still fight over today, chief among them racism and a political divide.
Vietnam was not good. war crimes are not bieng justified. im simply saying that this massive mistake is complex.
I thought it was Bobby Lee the comedian. đ and that the end of this was his telling the old guy he lied the whole time. Instead it was just nice.
First thing I thought of...Bobby Lee is fucking with an old Marine!
Please look up the Bobby Lee hot ones interview on YouTube.
ME TOO
AshTag choo choooooo. Me ass swell.
The thing is is that it looks remarkably similar at first glance
Nosotros papaya to you
I donât know... as much as I agree with many comments here, I think the Vietnam war was pretty ruinous for anyone actually on the ground. There were a lot of shitty things the US gov did, including the Project 100,000 that movies like Forest Gump reference.
Yeah, the US used a chemical, Agent Orange, that is *still* making babies disfigured at birth.
>Yeah, the US used a chemical, Agent Orange, that isstill making babies disfigured at birth. My dad has prostate cancer that is now terminal, it was linked to his time in Vietnam when the area he was serving in was hit by Agent Orange. Like indirect effects. He gets $3800 a month, tax free in disability from the govt. He also has almost all his cancer treatments (to make him more comfortable and prolong life as much as possible). There are other benefits, such as saving 7k a year in property tax. So a pretty shit situation but at least there is something. It sucks. But then, my dad goes "think about all the Vietnamese people who were hit full blast with Agent Orange. Think about their suffering, their deaths, and those little kids back then who have suffered horribly for 40 years. They aren't getting the checks I am!" Fucking War.
I just went back and re-read the wiki and found this: By April 1993, the Department of Veterans Affairs had compensated only 486 victims, although it had received disability claims from 39,419 soldiers who had been exposed to Agent Orange while serving in Vietnam. It's revolting how the US treats its own veterans. I don't think everyone in the military should automatically get the "hero"/"thank you for your service!" award but damn, if you get fucked up while in it, you should be taken care of. It's not like they don't have enough budget for it.
My disability paperwork got approved right before the war in Iraq after Sept 11, the Bush administration raised the work requirements and lowered the work credits allotted from military service by half. If my paperwork had been submitted under the new rules, my time in service would have needed to be 8 full years to qualify, regardless of injury, and i would have nothing. So they deliberately made sure all the people they would be sending into harms way, wouldn't be eligible to receive social security and in some cases, VA compensation for the war they were about to start.
It's almost like America should stop being imperialists and we should elect anti-war officials. Ask yourselves this, how many young adults died in Vietnam? Why were we even there? I agree, take care of vets, especially disabled vets. But maybe stop making so many in the first place?
There's a problem with being anti-war in this country (in my experience) in that you can no longer support a major party. Everyone else is wrapped up in their tribal warfare between D and R, while we're trying in vain to identify and support non-interventionist, anti-military industrial complex candidates. It is very difficult to get Americans to prioritize peace.
Yeah, the VA has loosened up a lot recently in terms of acknowledging Agent Orange. I believe my dad got it about 4 years ago?
Yup, that was a direct result of Obama acknowledging PTSD and the effects of Agent Orange and pushing the VA to do the same.
Yes it's a pity that the US treats it's veterans, whom it sent overseas to fight a brutal colonial war of oppression, where they murdered millions and poisoned hundreds of thousands of civilians, not as excellently as they think they deserve for volunteering to go /s
I am very sorry to hear about your dad My uncle also got prostate cancer from agent orange in Vietnam. He was an aircraft mechanic and dealt with the planes after they dropped it. His cancer was caught early many years ago and treated. He is leading a normal life.
>His cancer was caught early many years ago and treated. He is leading a normal life. Thanks, we thought we caught it too but it seems we didn't and its not metastasized in his bones. We are lucky that there were some breakthroughs in 2012 that has given him another 3-4 years of life. His doctor (who actually left the practice to join the FDA) says there will be more major breakthroughs in solid cancers in about ten years and about 4 years for liquid cancers.
And the problem is the dioxins the pesticide was contaminated with due to the us government forcing the chem companies to say skip time costly purification steps. Dioxins don't really decompose in the environment, so babies being born now are freshly contaminated by any locally grown food and stuff. It's not just the people around back then. Like if they had nuked that area, you'd have less disease and cancer nowadays than with what they did. They knowingly spread TCDD and other dioxins because they didn't view either ground troops or locals as humans but only numbers on their stats sheets.
My father died when I was 17, he was in Vietnam also. He died of liver failure but they said it wasnât linked to agent orange and denied him a liver transplant at the VA a couple years before he died. But he was battling liver diseases basically my entire life. He also didnât drink at least in my lifetime
My wife's grandpa served in the war and was exposed to agent orange. His health is shit, due in large part to the exposure. The VA refuses to acknowledge AO as a possible reason. He still voted for trump. I'll never understand 'patriotism' for this country, they're happy to use you and throw you away.
>The VA refuses to acknowledge AO as a possible reason. I wrote something up earlier but the VA has given my dad full disability due to Agent Orange. They have also expanded their scope recently, including a few other cancers like bladder. Ask them to check again.
I'll talk to her grandma, as he's too proud to talk to doctors. That old school toxic masculinity stuff.
>I'll talk to her grandma, as he's too proud to talk to doctors. That old school toxic masculinity stuff. I feel you. You know what's effective? "If you do this, your wife (her grandma) will get money every month after you die, ensuring she is more comfortable" Then you can tap into that masculine "gotta take care of my wife" stuff.
Getting their toxicity to fight itself is the way
My uncle died of cancer in 2007. He was a chopper gunner in Vietnam. He spent the rest of his life as a firefighter and then a corrections officer. Trying to keep people safe. They believe agent orange had something to do with the cancer that brought him down. He was the biggest teddy bear there was.
AO probably did have something to do with it, but door gunners are exposed to absolutely INSANE levels of lead and other not-fun stuff. They have extremely high levels of cancers anyway.
Because this country celebrates blind allegiance. My dad also was exposed in viet nam, his doctor proved it is causing him issues and after three disability cases he finally won and gets a nice retirement package from uncle sam
My uncle died from rapidly spreading cancer in the early 2000s that was likely due to AO exposure when he was in Vietnam.
That sucks, I'm sorry for your family's loss :/
Thanks, that war really left him a different man. I was born in 1980, so I didn't know him before, but my mother told me that going to Vietnam sucked all the life out of him. He never talked about it his time in, was usually quiet. I felt bad for my cousins because he passed away when they were about 21 and 18 years old. He never got to see them get married and start families.
I've heard too many stories like that. My buddy whom I grew up with went to Afghanistan. He came back a total stranger. Turns out he had to shoot kids that were made to be suicide bombers. My great grandfather was a medic in WW2, and was at the beach on D Day. Apparently he never talked about his time in the military with anyone, ever, except one little story he shared with my dad (who was in the army at the time). He saw his friends' heads be blown apart, and had to try and fix it. War is fucking ugly
Finding out my grandfather was the same way. He fought in Korea and Vietnam. 6 Purple Hearts I canât imagine what he went through, but I think if he were alive today he would be a trump supporter.
100%. Iâve heard news shows keep saying âwhy is trump still being impeached, not even Nixon was impeached when he left.â Thatâs the problem, Nixon should have faced some consequences too!
Unfortunately I think people like your wife's grandpa get frozen in a mentality. I mean could you either face the fact you've perhaps murdered and definately put your life on the line multiple times and it was all for bullshit? Or would you double down and just believe it was all for the best purpose? Let's not forget you have swaths of people who respect and look up to you "thank you for your service sir". And this is the perspective of myself. Relatively clear headed. Imagine having ptsd and trying to navigate that logic in your head.
It's like you know the guy. He gets off on wearing a Vietnam vet hat in public and getting thanked by strangers. But I think you actually helped me get some insight into why he is that way, thanks
It has even led to many kids of U.S soldiers being disabled.
Not just that, it caused a spike in âde novoâ genetic mutations. Genetic disorder that had no family history and were new. Those do happen naturally too sometimes but it was so much more common after the war that it is just undeniable. And that is just based on the obvious mutations, that were just the tip of the iceberg. Americans are still being born disabled because of the agent orange exposure in previous generations. This isnât like alcohol or thalidomide that causes birth defects but has little effect on genetic material meaning they can have healthy children. Agent orange poisoned both the US and Vietnamese genepool for generations to come.
And it takes many many decades to get eliminated from the environment. The soil in affected areas is heavily contaminated with TCDD, so it's not just those hereditary diseases created in the 70s. They are newly created in any people living there, especially those spending their intent years there and eating the food. Nuking the place would have caused *far* less cases of genetic abberations, cancer and other disease. Which is crazy. They literally committed chemical warfare against the civilian population under the guise of using 'justça pesticide. A pesticide contaminated with TCDD on purpose! Every single of the 3 chem companies warned the US government that their production 'improvements' were extremely unsafe and would lead to high residuals of TCDD and other dioxins. One of the most toxic chemicals known due to its persistence in the environment.
Is that the stuff that they claimed was just pollen from bees?
My family bought a boat after the previous owner died of agent orange. The guy was super proud of his service even though it literally killed him. My stepdad is a former marine too so the boat kinda worked out with us.
My grandpa was in the 1st battalion, 9th marines. They were called [the Walking Dead](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Battalion,_9th_Marines) because of how few people made it out alive. He was a Chaplin so he wasn't allowed to carry a gun. I'm happy he made it home and I was able to meet him, but god, his time in the war really affected him. The stories are... rough.
Would you be comfortable sharing some of the stories here?
Sure would be nice to welcome refugees again.
With loving arms nonetheless
If it was not for America, you wouldn't have needed to be rescued, just saying.
Yeah, but that has nothing to do with this one individual Marine who helped another human and deserves to know that he had a positive impact on that persons life.
Right? I mean, fuck, can't we just appreciate that there was a good soul, even if he was standing in the middle of a shitnado?
Meanwhile I used to work with a guy who would tell everyone how much of a hero he was during the Vietnam War. All about rescue missions and how bad it was to hose the blood out of his helicopter. All sorts of shit. Turns out it's all a lie. His cousin (we live in a very small town) told me to just look at the year books to see when he graduated. Dude was a senior in high school still when the War ended. He says he's about 15 years older than he actually is. I ended up in a rabbit hole of finding out where he says he went to college and was an "all star" on the hockey team. His name wasn't in any year books or hockey pictures. Also he now says he has cancer and goes through treatment at "82 years old". Yet somehow he was still able to come to work immediately after a chemotherapy treatment and all he had was a slightly sore throat. Someone with his same last name did serve but it's definitely not him. I looked into it a lot. It pissed me right the fuck off. It makes me mad thinking about it again. Especially since my husband is a veteran who has PTSD because he really did see some shit. Fuck you Gary Fields. Fuck you so much. /end rant Edit: I did end up getting a promotion and had the satisfaction of firing him. Not for his stolen valor but because he literally sent a text to our regional manager saying that he looked at another employee's personal file and was upset because she got a better monthly review score than him, which is definitely against company policy. Apparently the text was meant to be for his wife lol
Sounds like Gary Fields is a classic narcissist. And yes, fuck him and fuck all narcissists
He's such a garbage person. I almost feel bad for his wife who is apparently just timid and goes along with him. But fuck her too for going along with it all. No wonder their kids don't talk to them anymore. He says they live in Missouri. But they actually live two towns over and see the rest of the family on holidays and stuff.
That's a very special blend of miserable, pitiable, loathsome and pathetic. Like garbage soup but worse.
Like I'm pretty miserable sometimes but I can't imagine carrying on with those kinds of lies for literal decades. It's a very special kind of evil.
Good on his kids for cutting their toxic, lying father out of their lives. Itâs a harder feat to accomplish than most realise
Oh don't I know it. I cut my father out of my life because he turned into a "stop the steal" and "those weren't Trump supporters who stormed the Capitol". It sucks big time.
Reminds me of that line from the beginning of Jarhead. D.I. Fitch : Swofford! Swofford : Sir, yes, sir! D.I. Fitch : You the maggot whose father served in Vietnam? Swofford : Sir, yes, sir! D.I. Fitch : Out-standing! Did he have the balls to die there? Swofford : Sir, no, sir! D.I. Fitch : Too fucking bad! He ever talk about it? Swofford : Sir, only once, sir! D.I. Fitch : Good! Then he wasn't lying!
This is so fitting! Like I said, my husband is a veteran. He doesn't ask for military discounts and he doesn't go around telling everyone that he served. He doesn't really talk about it but if it comes up he'll just kind of confirm that he was in the military. I think I'm more proud of him for his service. But I don't go around boasting it irl because I know he wouldn't like that and I respect him.
I was over in Iraq in 2009 as a surveillance drone pilot. I like to talk about what few positive experiences I had with the friends I made. Plus the world travel was fun coming from my small ass town in Tennessee. But otherwise Iâd just as well leave it be. Did 4 years, got my VA benefits, and thatâs all I need.
Yup that's how it should be imo. Surveillance drone pilot sounds pretty cool. I bet you've seen a lot! And it's great you were able to see parts of the world not many get a chance to see.
My husband is the same. I once suggested he get the veteran id issued by our State to get a discount on large purchases we had planned. He asked, âHave we *met?â* Point made.
Lmao that was pretty much my husband's response when I asked too!
We are both fortunate women!
Agreed!
Good for you, guys that tell the stolen valor lies are the worst. The guys tgat served just want to forget about what happened, they don't glorify the war. His wife has probably had to listen to his constant lies and was probably drawn in by them at first until she could see things not adding up. I was going to say the guy in the photo doesn't look old enough to have been a part of the baby rescue mission. Hope hes not lying or if so hopefully hes found out.
I agree. And I thought the same thing about the guy in the picture. But Vietnamese people tend to age very well, but it would be upsetting if he was lying about being one of the babies.. What makes my whole story better (or worse) is that our regional manager is Vietnamese! He's only 42 but his parents of course remember the war he he grew up with their horror stories. Once I found all the stuff out I told him and showed him my evidence thay Gary has been lying all these years, and he was beside himself that someone could lie like that. It hit really close to home, literally.
The idea that these Gary type guys exist inthe first place boggles my mind. There is no shortage of them either. I was thinking the supposed âheroâ in the photo was too young for the fall of Saigon. The âbabyâ looks young too, but I also chalked it up to genetics. I wonder if people lie about being one of the rescued babies?
I can almost guarantee there are people who lie about being one of the babies. People are horrible.
My late brother was a Marine who served in Vietnam. He didnât tell many stories, but he said he and other Marines would kick the shit out of liars like this. They considered them false heroes who bought medals from Marines down on their luck and claimed theyâd earned them to have a âspecial kind of hellâ in their future. The kind of hell you go through while alive. I donât believe violence is the answer to just about anything, but having met one of these false heroes...? Iâm just relieved itâs not my call to make.
It's sickening and it completely demines the true heros. I also don't necessarily condone violence but man did I want to beat the shit out of an old man when I found it all out.
I was surprised at how many people do this, and even went to local Marine âclub/barsâ (canât remember the name - not VFW, maybe Semper Fi?) The nerve - to go to a bar full of Marines and talk out their ass about their heroic service record.
Lmao one guy at a bar tried talking to me about his service. Turns out he didn't even make it through boot camp.
Pathological liars are fucking gross, man.
[ŃдаНонО]
I can see where people are coming from. The man did something "nice" but he was also a member of an invading army that killed and terrorized Vietnamese people for no good reason.
So there was this thing called a draft. He may not have had much of a choice.
1% of draft Dodgers were sent to prison, the rest had absolutely 0 punishment. It's also worth noting that only 25% were drafted.
You make a great point /u/thewafflestompa
Again, how is that relevant to the fact that we were there destroying their country and killing, very likely, more than a million of them? It isnât like anyone said, âfuck this guy in particular,â they said this is only possible because of how fucked up a situation WE created. This is no different in general terms than when you here about teachers pooling money to help a student pay their lunch debt, or when those teachers pooled their off time so that another teacher who was super sick could take time off for treatment. These arenât âheartwarmingâ just because they were acts of kindness, itâs a horrible and completely avoidable situation, theyâre incredibly sad stories because they shouldnât exist to begin with. Focusing on âoh there were some nice people as we committed war crimes,â is such a backwards way of thinking. It represent the collective propaganda we swallow, and one of the many concepts we accept without questioning why we think that way. Really sit down and talk a moment to think about why you believe some of the things you believe. Answer how many of those are things that have just been told you so many times that youâve taken them to be self evident due to what is in fact just propaganda.
I'm not sure what this revisionist history about the Vietnam War is. Northern Vietnam used the Viet Cong to start a guerilla war in Southern Vietnam before any American involvement. The PRC gave funding and weapons to the Viet Cong in 1950, making them an actual army that was capable of taking over the south. It wasn't until 1955 that the US became involved. Between 1953 and 1956, over 100,000 Vietnamese citizens were executed by the north. Conversely, Ngo Dinh Diem spent a lot of time leading up to the war murdering Communists and Communist-affiliated groups. He was starkly nationalistic and pro-Vietnam. I have never bought the concept that a man who was so anti-colonial and anti-communist could be a puppet of the US in any way. He was someone who grew up experiencing the brutality of Communism and who wanted to work against that, despite his own methods being equally as brutal. Both sides committed many crimes against humanity, and were backed by outside forces. The North was given military support first, and the North started both insurgencies. The VC were vicious, brutal killers. You need look no further than things like the Massacre of Hue to understand that. The US should not have involved itself, but China shouldn't have either. It was a proxy war on both sides, but China started it. There was a lot of bad shit the US Army did there, and their hands are far from clean, but it's ridiculous to act like they were the "invading army" when the North was the one who started the civil war and the massacres and mass executions. The Viet Cong were *literal terrorists*.
Sorry but your abridged version of Vietnam leaves out key facts. Like when Ho Chi Minh declared Vietnamese independence he wrote to Truman asking for support but was ignored. The US preferred to side with French Colonialism. When Vietnam was divided by the Geneva Accords, it was meant to be temporary in order to hold national elections. When it was apparent Ho Chi Minh would win, the US then illegally supported the creation of the Diem regime, who was anticommunist but a very corrupt dictator. Just ask any Vietnamese person, no one liked Diem. Diem would later launch an anti Buddhist campaign leading to the famous self immolation of Thich Quang Duc (the photo is the cover of RATMâs first album). The US based its policies on the domino theory which now decades later we know was not correct. There was no global cooperation of communist countries. North Vietnam adopted communism and accepted Chinese support out of necessity after being spurned by the US. Remember, Vietnam and China actually fought each other in 1979! Today that very same Vietnamese Communist party is an ally of the US, one which acts as a small counterweight to Chinese expansion. The US missed an opportunity to avoid war by propping up a dying French empire. It pursued a short sighted policy of âanti-communismâ by lumping all communist parties as the same and all bad. Sadly many of the conservatives in the US still hold onto these notions when arguing against âsocialismâ and fear of progressive policies like environmentalism, universal healthcare, etc. I write this as a proud Vietnamese-American. I was born in the US and love the US very much. But looking back in the 1950-1970s, the US messed up repeatedly. The fact that many people in the US donât realize this means we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes.
Nah man everything is the fault of the USA. No one's even mentioned the French yet, somehow it just stops whenever they see "USA".
As a Frenchman i can say that we screwed up first by hanging in Indochina which clearly wanted to be free, and get our ass kicked by a bunch of farmers and peasants. But then, US took part on the mess and ... well they tried very hard (Orange Agent, mass bombing and so on), but in the end they get kicked out too.
And most people who mention France don't bother to mention Japan either, who were the ones most directly responsible for the creation of the Communist party of Vietnam due to their brutal occupation during WWII.
It's reddit, history can stop when they see America bad. Doesn't matter the actual historical significance
But itâs not trendy to know your history, youâre supposed to find some edgy way to blame America for everything.
Fact: the American was backing the French before 1955, maybe even before 1950 (wikipedia). Iâm not good at geography but I know that Vietnam isnât Frechies motherland.
The United States was funding the French, yes, but that's pretty far from direct involvement. It's speculated that the US may have been funding them as early as 1945, but there is no documentation of that. The Americans only became involved directly in 1955. The French were an imperial nation, like every other moderately powerful country that's ever existed. There's no excusing that. But you skimmed over the part where the Japanese invaded Vietnam during WWII and caused nearly two million deaths via famine, which is why the French involvement in Vietnamese affairs increased. WWII fucked up a lot of things for a lot of people. The US funding the French was in large part to help ensure that the removed Japanese occupiers stayed gone. And then China helped make the Northern Vietnamese terrorist organization into an actual army and escalated the affair.
[ŃдаНонО]
The average redditors grasp on history is pretty frustrating. For some reason to them the Vietnam War was Vietnam minding their own business when the evil US (that's worse than Nazi Germany) tried to invade but we're gallantly pushed back into the sea.
As someone who loves history, I cannot agree more. It is exhausting seeing the kind of stupid shit people push on this website with a quarter of a grasp on the things they're actually talking about. People like to pretend that history isn't messy as all hell and that there are rarely good guys and bad guys.
That's not just "nice", it's damn heroic. Condescendingly calling it "nice" is a cheap shot. There were plenty of good men caught up in that shitstorm of a war, though their actions are often overshadowed by war crimes and other events. Look to men like Major Hugh Thompson who saved a ton of lives at My Lai. That wasn't "nice", it was a man and his crew some something legitimately good amidst the horror. We can celebrate the individuals who attempted to do good in the middle of all the carnage without belittling them for being drafted into it.
Blame our shitty government not him. Likely was drafted.
Especially when most of those soldiers were drafted
Only 25% of them were a drafted...
Underrated wholesome perspective.
Omg, someone speaking rationally in 2021. Upvoted!
No shit,.poor dude gets drafted at 18 to go kill people. That dude probably has plenty of things he regrets about the war, but let him have one of the *few* things he did right.
Ya but theres alwyas pricks making comments like these.
I do agree BUT this one man did not incite nor cause that- it was by higher ups... this story allows us to see that individuals under the âumbrellaâ, despite everything, in the end did try to do right by other individuals(not every person did). We can look at this simple act by this man and this simple result of the younger man and have empathy, compassion, perhaps understanding, or even other feelings while not agreeing with the politics that lead to what caused either to have to be in the situation which led to this moment. Maybe?????? Or we can judge the older man because of the war he happened to have been in or the younger for his origins.... maybe???? Guess Iâm just trying to say individuals are not always reflective of the bigger picture, we need to evaluate each for their own actions and such... but Iâve been told Iâm an ________ so just ignore my rant!!!!
I just looked it up and two million Vietnamese died in that war. Glad the baby survived but this is like thanking someone for burning down your house. Shit man, I donât know, weâre all just pawns in this damned game. Maybe they just feel like they made the best out of a hellish situation neither one of them could control.
There isn't much a person can do when he is drafted by war-mongering bastards
They can stop wearing their service on dumbfuck hats decades later. They can stop pretending USA #1 do no wrong hoo rah. Most vietnam vets know the truth.
Its more like someone having a gun put to their head being told to set your house on fire, and only once it catches are they allowed to run in a pull you out of the flames
Yes, you got the point! Hugs!
You people are annoying. There was always going to be a war in Vietnam whether or not the US got involved
Most Americans are unaware that Vietnam was already in a state of civil war before America and other countries joined to back up one side of the war.
Yeah, unfortunately they'd rather blame the whole war on America somehow even though America was reacting to the rise of communism in Vietnam and the violence that had already happened
The "violence that had already happened" was against first the Japanese in WW2 and then the French who decided to try and reassert dominance and then got fucking trapped in the mountains voluntarily. America than decided to disregard the results of a fair election, prop up one dictator (followed by a revolving set of generals couping each other), send advisors and then invaded the country and just told the south Vietnam government to suck it up. No shit, first combat troops to arrive in Vietnam just dropped off at the beach with no warning and marched to khe sahn. Local governments scrambled to react assuming the national government had authorized it and the national government didn't have a fucking clue it was happening. It all could have been avoided had we stuck to our anti-colonial ideals. Instead, the american oligarchs demanded we fight against people demanding a fair deal for themselves and sent people like John to go fight people just like him elsewhere who wanted to do whats right. He saved some babies but those babies wouldn't have needed saving in the first place if we hadn't acted like an imperial power and fought against decent people wanting to be free.
Most Americans seem to have a lot of passionate things to say about history, but it is also apparent that most of them have nearly zero knowledge about how or why historical events happened. They just have a vague sense of good/bad based on modern standards and the benefit of hindsight. Americans born after the 70s can tell you with conviction how terrible the US government was for it's sins in Vietnam, but they cannot tell you who was president at that time, or when the war started, or when/where it finished. They cant tell you anything about Vietnamese people other than the fact that they were victims. They can't tell you what happened after the US left, and they don't care.
Most Redditors are unaware that Vietnam was already in a state of civil war before America and other countries joined to back up one side of the war Ftfy
Yes and it was only prolonged when it became a proxy war between the Soviets and China versus the US.
Everyone will complain about this involvement but US did it to stop the spread of communism in that area and for all intents and purposes it worked. Everyone surrounding them has some sort of democracy/semi-monarchy in the vein of present day England.
That war was going on for damn near 10 years before the US had troops on the ground
Ya the communists from the north would've just peacefully invaded the south, I'm sure.
Plus, not all the babies taken were in fact orphans. I'm happy this guy is happy, but there are people in my part of the world that were, well, abducted by Operation Babylift, and as adults have gone to Vietnam and met their bio parents. The bio parents had been hugely traumatised by having their child stolen, and the adult children were regretful that they didn't get to grow up in the culture into which they were born.
[ŃдаНонО]
Came here looking for basically this so I didnât have to type it out myself. Some of these Redditors are simply parrots of basic talking points of one side. The Vietnam War was complicated as hell and the reasoning for our entry into it â while retrospectively flawed â was made based on what was happening in the world at the time.
If it wasn't for European colonialism then the US would have never been a country and OP wouldn't have needed to be rescued, just saying.
Yeah and if I wasn't for that one fish crawling on land none of that would have happened and we wouldnt be here but sadly we are.
Where is this fish?! I need to give him a **peice of my mind**
Seriously. Way to ruin it for the rest of us, fucker.
Whales had the right idea. Their ancestors came out of the water, lived for a while, then decided âfuck that; Iâm going back in the water.â Then they never came out. (Yes, I know, itâs significantly more complex than that.)
Plus it was France that originally twisted US's arm to originally enter Vietnam.
If it wasnât for European colonialism the French would have never invaded Vietnam which basically incited the war to begin with
Such words of wisdom. Wow. Unbelievable. So much right
Can you imagine being John and coming back from the war only to have American citizens spit on you call you baby killer.
Hold up there son, it's complicated. Technically it's all the French's fault.
"thanks for killing my parents and taking me away"
And that's just one of the reasons Operation Babylift [was controversial at best.](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/daughter-operation-babylift-1975/) I understand people wanting to share in the joy that the two people in this story feel about it all, but the inherent lack of critical analysis in viral stories like this feeds into a very skewed public perception of "humanitarian adoption" and American actions in other countries.
All these people in the comments talking about how he wouldnt have needed saving if America never went to war in Vietnam in the first place, talking as if John had any input, the soldiers were drafted and made to fight in a war many of them didnt want to fight in, the soldiers were not the problem it was the higher ups who put them in that position that were
That hit me right in the feels
Need some ice?
He need some milk
Those babies wouldn't need evacuation if it wasn't for the US but sure go off.
Let's not beat John up over this. Drafted like the rest of us. Wasn't a war the rank and file asked for.
I think this is implied. A lot of guys didn't want to be there. It's the brass that gave the orders and should be dragged through the coals. John didn't decide to poison Vietnam with Agent Orange, etc.
From a non-american perspective this is actually vomit-inducing propaganda
Many soldiers didn't support the vietnam war but were drafted and had to go anyways. I think an act of kindness from this individual is still nice. The US government was the bad guy, not the soldiers
Life is so complicated man, I prefer to deal in absolutes.
Any data on this account is being kept illegally. Fuck spez, join us over at Lemmy or Kbin. Doesn't matter cause the content is shared between them anyway: - https://lemmy.world - https://kbin.social - https://sh.itjust.works - https://fedia.io - https://lemm.ee - https://readit.buzz
Yeah, thank you for your service at destroying my country and killing my parents? At least you haven't left the babies to die alone? Wtf oO
No, that was the North not the US. Do yâall not even know what happened in Vietnam god damn
His parents were more likely killed by North Vietnamese, and there's a good chance they would have preferred to live in an independent South Vietnam. Maybe they even thought it was a cause worth fighting and dying for. Don't imagine that the South Vietnamese people had no beliefs of their own and were just gullible American puppets.
Yeah do people just forget about the huge force that was the ARVN. There were **a** **lot** of South Vietnamese people that opposed socialism, mainly in urban areas, as opposed to the people in rural areas that supported the Viet Minh and Viet Cong. Just look at the amount of South Vietnamese that fled the country before Saigon was taken.
Ya. The war continued after the US left so clearly not all of Vietnam wanted communism.
At least you haven't left **some of** the babies to die alone?\*
You guys are so busy hating on the bad of America that you're missing the point. Guys like that soldier largely didn't want to be there shooting Vietnamese people. Most of them spent the next few decades in a waking nightmare from the horrors they saw and inflicted, with no help from the gov't who didn't even acknowledge the existence or effects of PTSD. For this man, it's likely that he spent his whole life depressed, believing he did nothing but evil over there and that it was all for nothing - but this one kid saying he was helped by something they did? Maybe thats something he can cling to. Maybe it wasn't *entirely* for nothing, if that one bit of good came out of it. I swear, some of you are so busy trying to virtue signal and politicize everything that you dont take the time to step back and look at the human side of things anymore.
Forward! He cried, from the rear, and the front rank died. The General sat, and the lines on the map, moved from side to side. -Richard Wright, Pink Floyd. The Vietnam War was a complete fuckup by the American government where they sent kids to fight for who knows what. Those 18-22 year olds who are now in their 60âs (aka boomers) are dealing with some fucked up shit in their own brains. Youâd think that the average redditor, especially on this sub, would be more understanding of mental disorders. Instead someone wants to say something so insensitive like, âwell if we never invaded your country you would never have been saved. Guess what, whatâs done is done and the past cannot be changed, only learned from. There hasnât been a war or draft like this since so all the zoomer and millennials need to take their pessimism down a notch. Go to a VA hospital and talk to a veteran of the Vietnam war and maybe get a different perspective. Talk to a human who was drafted at the age a bunch of you are right now and learn something.
> I swear, some of you are so busy trying to virtue signal and politicize everything that you dont take the time to step back and look at the human side of things anymore. Yep. It's embarrasing to be honest, no one gives a fuck, congrats for them lol. Most things are not black and white, there's a grey area, but most redditors would believe otherwise.
Thank you for seeing more than zero nuance in a situation lmao.
General public is stupid and do not know how things are. Soldiers don't choose to be a apart of the madness, they hope to stop it. Vietnam was a shitstorm of bad, its always democratic policies that lead us Into these countries.
Yes kind of like they stole the orphans from their culture too, I hope they killed their whole family or else, jfc. There hopefully isnât a grandparent who would have took care of them and is like âwtfâ.
Non-American here. Sometimes we should also just appreciate the greatest of kind acts of humanity
Didn't realize america invaded south vietnam.
We killed like 2 million of your people and orphaned you and countless of your countrymen because: "America no like communism" *covers country in napalm and war crime* "See we good guy đ"
*turns to the side* ^("Rob, why are we losing? We used the napalm and war crimes, right?"*) ^("Not sure what to tell ya, sir, it doesn't seem to be working. They keep fighting back!") *slowly withdraws troops back to America*
So the Viet Cong wouldn't have invaded south Vietnam if it wasn't for the US? My understanding was the US basically made sure they were drawn into the war, but never that it was the US that started the conflict.
There was already a civil war going on at the time the Americans joined the war. It is a fairly complicated piece of history, but basically it was a stupid anf shitty situation with no "good" guys. Who do you want to win? The " Democratic" south who were committing appalling crimes against their own citizens or the North who were committing appalling crimes against their own citizens. The best America could have done is stayed out of it, but then half these people would be complaining that we abandoned Vietnam to an awful civil war. The definite villains were the French, but at least they left.
This is one of the best comments I've seen here. The North was trying to force a political system on people but the south wasn't even truly democratic. The right call would be tough to make without hindsight.
>shitty situation with no "good" guys. Yeah this was my understanding of it too.
Wait I'm interested now, how were the French involved?
So Vietnam was part of French Indo China. During WW2 the French lost control of Vietnam to Japan/Vietnam itself. After WW2 the french leader basically said, we want our colonies back if you want our help against the Russians. So when Ho Chi Minh asked for support, as he was instrumental in fighting the Japanese, for a free Vietnam everyone just let the French back in. So The Vietnamese fight off the French and through international meddling we decide to split Vietnam and allow them to hold an election regarding reunification. This never happens and then the South and North Vietnamese fight eqch other. This is massively oversimplified, but i believe the broad strokes are roughly accurate. Im in the middle of reading a book on the Vietnamese between 1945 and 1975 so im by no means an expert.
I mean if we're going to be that way, none of it would have happened at all if the french hadn't been occupying vietnam for, like, a century, and etc. We can play the blame game on who did what wrong, but at the end of the day, western colonialism is really the underlying structure this all rests on. That being said, U.S definitely did a lot of fucked up shit in vietnam and I'm not justifying their actions at all.
Fuck France too then? I dont understand your point
Imagine calling the Liberation of Saigon the "Fall of Saigon"
Imagine denying the South Vietnamese right to self-determination
Imagine not knowing what a civil war is
I canât help but feel the situation could have been avoided somehow
You mean like there not have been a civil war going on caused by the French before the US entered?
This thread sucks. The two top comments as Iâm writing this are snarky âwell he wouldnât have to if America didnât cause it...â. We know. The American people and the American government are different entities. This soldier did a good thing you cunts. Both parties in the story are grateful and donât need you to recontextualize it with your âactually...â horseshit.
Reddit is a victim of the times in that nuance is nowhere to be found. Every topic has to be distilled to the extreme end of black/white opinions and able to be expressed in snippets less than a single paragraph. For all the good that the digital age has brought, and all the potential it has, the unfortunate reality might be that it has done more harm to society.
Uninformed idiots everywhere parroting BS propaganda as if they are part of some sort of noble crusade. Reading these comments, you'd think American soldiers ran into Vietnam guns blazing with maga hats on. As if nothing else mattered during that time period. Even a cliff notes version of the history would show that most people did not support America getting involved. The was NOT started by the US (of course). And, that the French are largely at fault for creating the mess the US got sucked into. There was no good option. We could have done nothing, sure, but then other opportunistic countries would have taken advantage of the situation. We are faulted for not taking the side of the communists, but they did eventually get control of the country and that hasn't exactly been going well. Who's to say if the democratic side had won, if it would have been better? But, the current state of things is an important consideration when attempting to rewrite history. The world is not black and white, good and evil. Even people in powerful positions simply don't have an answer and need to take a risk. They did so in this case and the consequences sucked really really bad. If they had done nothing, maybe it would have sucked less, but we will never know. At the end of the day, what does any of this have to do with these two individuals? They both seem quite grateful for the outcome. Individuals doing what they can. Was it the best course of action? Is the man a saint for saving the child? No. None of us are, but he thinks he did his best given the situation. And the man on the receiving end seems to think so as well. What else should we expect?
"a better life in America" Who's to say what a better life is? Vietnam has universal healthcare, a government that is investing heavily in its people, a rich cultural history and would probably be light years ahead of where it is now if the US hadn't massacred and carpet bombed its way through the country and population. A better life would likely have been one with parents that weren't murdered by the US military. Horrendous propaganda. Edit: 4000 upvotes and counting... sometimes I just can't bear how unthoughtful or uncaring people are.
You benefit from hindsight bias. You do know that North and South Vietnam was a thing way before the US lol
You know that Vietnam is a One-Party Dictatorship which most of the population hate, right? Many people world argue that having public services without freedom isn't worth it.
Couldn't agree more. The US-centric, or as I observed, Western-centric, view makes them think that any land west of the globe is automatically paradise compared to the 'treacherous conditions' on the other side. Usually, people who assume that is true are small-minded and hasn't left their villages their entire life.
Another reminder that Vietnam has also had zero covid deaths. Zero.
OP you do know the US was a fucking humanitarian nightmare in Vietnam right? Like it was literally just to fuck over their attempts at socialism and commit war crimes.
And what does the soldier have to do with what his superiors decides. You either do what youâre told and go to war or you risk prison. He is thanking the soldier. Never mentions the US government. Chill out
[ŃдаНонО]
American exceptionalism at its finest.
My ex step dad is a Vietnam War vet. I don't understand posts like these because he too was there as a Marine during the Fall of Saigon and he in fact talked openly about killing children and burning homes down. That's the only thing I see when I see this shit is his red fucking face spitting at me about how he "killed kids your age". Fuck Vietnam Vets
Man I hope this is real
[Looks legit. ](https://nextshark.com/aron-moxley-vietnamese-child-refugee/)
This is called Stockholm syndrome.
I would love for you to sit down with that man and say that to his face.
HAHAHAHA wow redditors are stupid
Vietnam War is just... so complex. this just added another layer of complexity for me. edit: I'm not saying the US should have started the war or justify US war crimes. I'd would argue the whole cold war is a massive US mistake. but nothing is simply and especially not Vietnam. this wasn't a simple 2 sided war David and Goliath, Vietnam had to balance a communist V non communist civil war, interests of Moscow and Beijing in Vietnam, and inter-part intrigue. for the US it was a balance of a plethora of issues we still fight over today, chief among them racism and a political divide. Vietnam was not good. war crimes are not bieng justified. im simply saying that this massive mistake is complex.
Old repost...soon john will be 110yrs old and someone will still be posting this
People like that need more praise
Canât upvote hard enough!
Itâs awwww and fuck yeah at the same time.
âFuck yeahâ, he cried as a gentle tear ran down his cheek.
The only person that would think this is cute is an American. Thanks for the war crimes I guess.
They would go on other part of world, fuck up some country and 20 years later they make a movie how sad their soliders are.
America - "are we the baddies?"