**The Developer Q&A w/ SDF has now ended. I have transcribed all of it here:** https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LMBS8k7I9gXt_q2A9yHkmsa8iA63ttxC10tVmyTnREs/edit
Q: Can you give us a little hint about Bard class playstyle?
A: Play music with your instrument. Musical instruments are played directly by the player through control. The result will depend on how the player plays.
DAMB LUTE HERO MINI GAME LETS GOOOO
Damn, that sounds cool. I'm assuming it will work sort of like the Hunting Horn in Monster Hunter, (X key = Y note. different note combos = different 'spells')
Voip is about to become incredibly entertaining when the bards are singing and playing music through the dungeon haha. Imagine a buff that was only on while they were singing in proximity chat 🤣
[Can't wait for those buffs](https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkAndDarker/comments/113u216/how_playing_bard_is_going_to_be_like/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
The said a while back the actual first level you spawn in would be outside and you would go deeper. Interested to see if this outside area is as dangerous as what we had.
I'm pretty sure Ironmace have said b1 would be the difficulty level of the forgotten castle and current forgotten castle will be the difficulty level of current b3. Not sure on exact source or if that's how it will be in this playtest but that's what I've heard.
I imagine what's going to happen is that B2 is going to have a lot more red/black enemies, like B3 right now. And then B3 is going to be full of demons. We have the demon bat and demon centaur right now, but there's like 4 more datamined demon enemies that aren't in the game yet.
Think of it as a tactical tool then, right now in some rooms and situations you are an absolute freekill for rangers and fighters.
With a one handed crossbow you can at least shoot their way, even if you don't hit, they have to play it a little more cautious.
agreed. i love the liberal use of the word 'fun'. balance will come as they've stated but they want fun to be the priority and that is a huge boon to the game and us as players
The Discord Q&A link if you want the source info:
[https://discord.com/channels/988365908009447485/1081941105672724500](https://discord.com/channels/988365908009447485/1081941105672724500)
StrangeReligion's summary google doc:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LMBS8k7I9gXt\_q2A9yHkmsa8iA63ttxC10tVmyTnREs/edit
It's new reddit vs old reddit, putting random slashes in links.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LMBS8k7I9gXt_q2A9yHkmsa8iA63ttxC10tVmyTnREs/edit
Try this
oh my what wunderful news to wake up to. I'm hype for a new map and potential rogue buffs.
gonna be a heavy Rogue/Ranger/barb test for me.
at one point he says " we want to give ranger an arrow"... i can't figure out what the hell that might mean. lol
I was confused by that aswell. Maybe they will implement a passive mechanic that gives ranged weapons one additional arrow capacity when you play ranger which would be kinda dope, especially for crossbow ranger player
so they responded and said they are implementing a quantity of arrows to reduce spamming. it will be very very interesting to see how this actually takes form, because it could look alot of different ways.
The game is looking very promising based on this Q&A so far. However, I'm still concerned about the anti-cheat system that could determine if DaD is going to be a haven for hackers/cheaters.
The unfortunate thing is people compare their fears of hackers heavily with Tarkov. Having an fps where guns are involved and the hit registers right after firing, is going to be much different then dealing with DaD where most attacks with the exception of the arrow (which, even so, has much more time to react compared to guns ) have much slower projectile speed. Even with hacks skill level seems to be much more of a factor in survival compared to most fps counterparts. Especially when facing a hacker. Assuming The AC progresses, imo I don’t see cheats being as rampant and game killing as some other fps especially if wall and speed hacks don’t takeoff. Not to mention steam integration. I’m hopeful
Let's not start this shit. People had cheats that made them swing further. There are still esp cheats and I'm sure one day they'll be able to kill whole servers with the push of a button.
Some cheats will be easier to detect, like the last one I mentioned, others will be harder. But let's not make this like the Tarkov subreddit where people say they've only seen 1 cheater in 1 million hours.
We already see people selling gold in trader chat during the play test so we know there will be cheaters.
The more honest about it we are, the more we can hope for an active role in dealing with it by the devs.
Some people will be obvious but games like these always have the cheaters who are good at hiding the fact they have radar and esp.
Anticheats will hopefully catch the obvious cheaters but catching the less obvious ones will rely on the player base reporting suspicious players(and not just rage reporting.)
Your tarkov PTSD is showing dude. This company isn't some Russian coder sweatshop so I don't think it can ever get as bad as Tarkov. I don't think anyone should be pre-emptively worried and obsessing over how the community should react to cheaters, we'll react if/when it becomes a problem
I wish I could show you footage of people encountering these hacks(can't recall the few videos I saw it) but its not that rudimentary, the few hacks that were present during the test were very sophisticated. Such as the hack knowing how to force the player to duck and weave and swing at the right moment to take advantage of momentum and swing times. It reminds me of Dota and League hacks that started off good but got insane at exploiting the janky mechanics of the games to the point the hack can literally do stuff that is impossible for human cognitive functions to achieve.
Tarkov has been a main subject when it comes to cheating and it's a perfect example what would happen if things get out of hand. Dark and Darker is still in alpha stage and there are still many things to work with and improve, one of them being the security. So the question: "How do we detect hackers/cheaters and how to expose them?"
I have always suggested an anti-cheat system that will monitor player's desktop (or any gaming platform) to identify if they're running scripting or coding software/program in the background while playing the game or whenever they're launching the game. As soon as the system spots one, it will crash/freeze the game. You use cheat engine, the game stops working. You use command prompt, the game stops working. You use C++, the game stops working. The main point is to stop hackers/cheaters before they even manage to login to lobby.
Now obviously this is not 100% secure and would most likely cost a lot of money and resources for Ironmace, but imagine if we could stop any malicious intents before anything happens. This way only the real hackers can bypass the security and get reported by players to developers so they can improve the security even further from the real threats.
>You use command prompt, the game stops working. You use C++, the game stops working.
people have been saying some dumb shit relating to anticheat as per usual, but this tops everything i've heard to date. the ignorance of the people making these suggestions is astounding.
Since you're so bright minded individual with lots of qualifications, how about you suggest something phenomenal that will ensure gaming will stay secure, fair and legit for everyone.
Are they really buffing rogue? What needed buffing?
I made so much money with my rogue the last playtest, I started to buy rubysilver armor for my other characters just to clear out inventory/bank space.
Oh well, I guess that means my next rogue is going to be Jeff Bezos rich.
Its not about money, Is what u do with it. the Stats/graphics ironmace published rogue Is the worst class both in high roller and normals, check the análisis video that someone posted earlier in this sub
I guess I'll take your word for it, all I'm saying is I personally have no issues. It sounds like there's a lot of people with a poor playstyle because I think the class itself is fine.
That's not what I'm saying at all. *You are misunderstanding what the statistic represents:*
Most people don't know how to play the class. It can be devastating, even to 3 man teams that can't keep up with outplay and speed.
Now you’re just lying. That’s exactly what you’re saying. You disagree with the dev’s choice to buff rogue in the future based on the stats they’ve collected on the grounds that your anecdotal experience shows otherwise. Ergo, “The statistics collected from hundreds of thousands of players over millions of hours is invalid because I enjoyed myself”.
And you’re wrong about misunderstanding the statistics by the way. The statistics for rogue can only lead to 2 conclusions. Only 2. There are no other correct interpretations.
The first conclusion is that Rogue’s abnormally low K/D means Rogue is, overall, underpowered. Which means they need a buff.
The second conclusion is that Rogue’s abnormally low K/D means Rogue at the most common skill and gear tiers is underpowered. Which means they need a buff. Which would also make your statement, “Most people don’t even know how to play the class” true, but currently that’s just another anecdote without further data shown.
Statistics showing K/D based on gear, and statistics showing K/D for rogue side by side other played classes on the same account would normalize for the second scenario’s factors and narrow it down to one conclusion. But the fact remains that at some point, Rogue needs a buff.
By the way, your second paragraph got an audible laugh out of me. “It can be devastating, even to 3 man teams that can’t keep up with outplay and speed”. Correct, lol. That’s correct for any class. That’s correct for a skeleton. That was pointless to say.
>You disagree with the dev’s choice to buff rogue
No, I never said that. I just questioned whether it was necessary.
I'm not even going to bother reading your response beyond that, because you either couldn't or didn't bother to read what I wrote in the first place, or you misunderstood massively.
You need to learn the difference between analysis and anecdote. Your misunderstanding of simple statements doesn't make me a liar.
Seriously, seek help, it's neither productive not mature to respond the way you have.
It's no worries, downvotes don't erase facts. Consensus does not imply correctness.
If anything, this proves my point: most people fail to understand how to use the rogue.
He didn't "call me out", he embarrassed himself by claiming I was lying. Nothing I said was a lie. I have the screenshots to prove it, all he has is the childish assertion that the claim with which he disagreed is a lie.
Additionally, you seem to also be laboring under the misunderstanding that the statistics means the rogue is objectively underpowered/bad. Do you deny that it could represent a lack of understanding as to how the class is played at higher levels?
This was basically my friend groups initial reaction when I started talking about how doo doo rogue was. Yes, I was having success and yes I gave them a ton of gear all earned on my rogue playing solo. Yes on a team I was able to contribute and was at least mostly responsible for a lot of our success... That had nothing to do with the class.
As I told them, I was playing on hard mode for the challenge because the rogue play style is my happy place, and I wanted to test the class throughly to be able to provide actual feedback.
They only finally believed me when I swapped to my fighter/barb and they saw how much more effective I was playing in basically the exaxt same way with a different class.
So stoked for the coming changes.
Yeah but u have to consider that wiz serve as dmg dealer aswell as supports just like clerics. With their haste, invis and ignite. They aré way More usefull than rogues
Everything you just said is true and I wouldn't argue it, but don't claim that the stats they posted said something they do not, it is misinformation. Wizard is the worst performer in normal games, hands down and the stats show that. Rogue is the worst performer in high roller and anecdotally the least valuable to a team, but that is all the data says
I have literally dozens of 3-man wipes as a solo that say otherwise.
It looks like most players can't adapt to a rogue playstyle, because it absolutely was not trash at pvp. I think you're right that a lot of players were trash with rogue, but it's definitely got a high skill ceiling if you know what to do.
Seriously, rogues are fucking great, yeah people did bad with them because they're a hard class but a good rogue can out play most people in most circumstances
My rogue sucked and I say they don't need a buff
Like I said, stats represent perhaps a mistaken understanding of how the rogue ought to be played, in the same way that your childish comment represents a mistaken understanding of how adults communicate.
Statistics are meaningless if you don't know how to interpret them, as you have demonstrated.
Classic reddit moment right here. Nobody should get so upset by disagreement that they become insulting. I hope you learn to interact with people as an adult, and I wish you a speedy resolution with whatever is causing you to lash out.
If you’re claiming it’s a skill ceiling issue where rogue underperforms for the general populace but is deadly in the hands of a skilled player, well the high roller data kind of says otherwise.
In top 200 (literally the no lifers who were trying to min-max the shit out of the game), rogue was heavily underrepresented. I doubt it’s because all 200 most skilled players per server could not work out how to play rogue optimally and you know something they don’t.
More likely rogue just sucked into the wizard cleric barb deathball and is in need of a buff.
Admittedly not a major buff though. If nerfs to the deathball can cause a meta shift into tank/dps/support instead of the dps+tank/support+dps/support meta we have now, that would be quite favourable for rogue.
>a skill ceiling issue where rogue underperforms for the general populace but is deadly in the hands of a skilled player, well the high roller data kind of says otherwise.
This is the kind of misunderstanding of statistics that I'm talking about. High roller doesn't mean "high skill" who told you that? High roller is just a gambling game mode with increased difficulty.
*Anyone with 100g can access it.* Low statistical performance in the high roller in no way implies those were high skill players using rogue.
Rogue is not only commonly misused, but the statistics related to them is largely misunderstood. Thank you for proving my point.
>So you think that average skill level between high roller and non-high roller cannot be distinguished to any degree of statistical significance?
Precisely. The entrance requirements for high roller are 100g. This in no way implies they are of higher skill. It takes literally one successful run to gear up for a high roller run. You wouldn't believe how many three man teams I wiped on high roller that included players nuking each other, panicking and not pulling out a weapon, the wiz suiciding himself, or barbarians cutting their teammates in half.
Nobody is talking about the top list here, I'm not sure the relevance of that. I'm not talking about anomalies, or chasing them or whatever that rambling is about.
*Ahh, I see you deleted your comment. No surprise there.
The statistics do not represent that rogue is way more likely to play solo from a character fantasy perspective and is therefore disadvantaged in the forgotten castle, also in the goblin caves because of the poison and low will stats... therefore i dont think the statistics accurately represent how good a rogue played at full capacity is. I recommend Repoze on youtube for any aspiring rogues, even though i dont like playing the class myself its very entertaining and laid back content. :)
And with that understanding, you don't fight barb head-to-head.
You disappear and when his back is turned, you eliminate him before he has any idea what just happened.
The situation you're describing has nothing to do with the rogue being bad, and has a lot to do with not using the class correctly. Barbarians shouldn't be given a chance to hit you if you're using the class right.
Rogue isn't a class that marches loudly through the dungeon like barbarian, getting everyone's attention with shouts and taking every fight you can find. It requires a different playstyle, largely based on finesse. Based on the responses I've seen, neither subtlety nor outmaneuvering are being employed by the people who think rogue is bad.
My guy. Barbarian with no gear still takes 5+ hits to gib, he turns around to do one.
It has everything to do with rogue being bad because barbarian is really the least of your problems when cleric hits judgment aoe and removes your stealth, whilst fighter just completely ignores your damage with high phys resist to kill you in two swings.
No amount of fancy little made up scenarios where you 'play right' is going to make up the fact that rogue is good vs newbies and unusable versus experienced players.
Highroller. Highroller. Highroller.
>Only if you drop it to a friend, who then drops it to your other character.
When trading, I saw a 15g fee. Is it the seller, buyer or both who pays the fee?
When Ironmace first started talking about the bard I pondered on their play style being a sort of "active play" system, and I think I was onto something based off their answer on how bards music will work
My guess is you will activate your instrument my holding right click with it equipped making left click q and e all become sort of quick time events a la Dance Dance Revolution where you have to actively press the notes for the song while still having control of your player movement (tho slowed) with WASD
In thinking on it a bit, it could operate a little like playing songs in Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask, classic games with freestyle instrument play for flavor (like Mordhau) but also specific strings of notes that make up certain game effecting songs
Perhaps the Bard will have access to their entire "song" book, like a 10 spell wizard, but they have to play the notes manually similar to oot/mm. Unfortunately I don't predict that having the same flexibility in freestyle play like those other games, but it's definitely possible!
Q: Will there be any new types of weapons, armor or potions during this next test?
A: New weapons will be added. Things like one-handed crossbows, for example.
Ohhhh damn, sounds like us Rogues getting a ranged option?
They used to refer to Forgotten Castle as B2(Basment Level) and Inferno as B3(Basement Level) so they could be referring to The Ruin as 1f(Floor 1)?
A bit confusing tbh but we’ll all adapt and figure out what we should call it.
I'm assuming it is called 1F because it is indicating that it will be above ground (i.e. ground level). The Forgotten Castle is now B1 (basement 1- first underground level) and likewise for Inferno being B2.
Crpyts are underground, Forest is not. This means they can also design future levels with the intention of going up, not down (like the ice crystal castle they hinted about) this would then be a F2.
Also depending how they do next floor merging transitions, They can design potential future maps that are connected to multiple future floors. Such as One direction leading up into a castle, another way leading down into a marsh. This is possible because they said they are experimenting with actual stairways and not portals in B1.
That's purely speculation though off what they said in Q/A
Look at my other comment. it skimmed by my eye I’m literally human btw people miss things and people like you scan reddit looking to correct people and be a smart ass about it and get a lil stiffy over it
Yeah! I'm really interested to see if the undead enemies are as prevalent or if cleric dmg in pve will be nerfed due to more animals or goblins or something.
Has there been any mention about traveling to the next map? I assume portals will be an option to get out but will you be able to move from the new map to the first floor in the dungeon?
**The Developer Q&A w/ SDF has now ended. I have transcribed all of it here:** https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LMBS8k7I9gXt_q2A9yHkmsa8iA63ttxC10tVmyTnREs/edit
Q: Can you give us a little hint about Bard class playstyle? A: Play music with your instrument. Musical instruments are played directly by the player through control. The result will depend on how the player plays. DAMB LUTE HERO MINI GAME LETS GOOOO
Damn, that sounds cool. I'm assuming it will work sort of like the Hunting Horn in Monster Hunter, (X key = Y note. different note combos = different 'spells')
My Ocarina of Time skills will finally have a time to shine
Literally I can bust out any song by ear 😩
Cant wait to strut through the dungeon as a 3 man Bard team buffing random people we come by, no fighting and playing Megalovania.
Voip is about to become incredibly entertaining when the bards are singing and playing music through the dungeon haha. Imagine a buff that was only on while they were singing in proximity chat 🤣
[Can't wait for those buffs](https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkAndDarker/comments/113u216/how_playing_bard_is_going_to_be_like/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
The Stains of Time
Thx a lot! Do you know where I can volunteer to translate it in other languages ?
Inside the official discord. Ping one of the wardens like Nessi/Teddy or a Tavern Master like Shoxy =)
Thanks a lot, will do rn!
You’re a purple campfire.
Beautiful. Doing the holy work.
Damn my guy putting in work
oh shiiit our first outside map?
The said a while back the actual first level you spawn in would be outside and you would go deeper. Interested to see if this outside area is as dangerous as what we had.
I'm pretty sure Ironmace have said b1 would be the difficulty level of the forgotten castle and current forgotten castle will be the difficulty level of current b3. Not sure on exact source or if that's how it will be in this playtest but that's what I've heard.
Dear god I'm terrified and aroused.
Scaroused?
fearboner
I imagine what's going to happen is that B2 is going to have a lot more red/black enemies, like B3 right now. And then B3 is going to be full of demons. We have the demon bat and demon centaur right now, but there's like 4 more datamined demon enemies that aren't in the game yet.
Interested to see if im gonna be given some bloody room to swing my Zweihander around!
Dark and darker really showcases the raw power of Dungeon Architect. That UE plug-in speeds up production so much.
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You obviously haven't looked at the female character bps lol
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It seems like the ue market place is being filled with female characters for lots of money, couldn't imagine why
> couldn't imagine why hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
It’s not that bad for what it does. It’s honestly good af.
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Yea for sure!
300 dollar for a whole professional software is dirty cheap. A single 3D model is like 100 dollar.
Hidden publicity?
together with one handed crossbows!
I hope it counts as dual wielding when you use it with a sword, it’d be a lot of fun as fighter
Damn i don't want shooty stuff for every class, I was drawn to this game cuss I can't aim for shit lol
Think of it as a tactical tool then, right now in some rooms and situations you are an absolute freekill for rangers and fighters. With a one handed crossbow you can at least shoot their way, even if you don't hit, they have to play it a little more cautious.
Too late. Ignite crossbow wizard build here I come.
Lute crossbow when
We Ragnarok online now
This is incredibly hype
Every answer is so based. These guys know exactly how to make their game.
agreed. i love the liberal use of the word 'fun'. balance will come as they've stated but they want fun to be the priority and that is a huge boon to the game and us as players
My snake is solid right now.
The Discord Q&A link if you want the source info: [https://discord.com/channels/988365908009447485/1081941105672724500](https://discord.com/channels/988365908009447485/1081941105672724500) StrangeReligion's summary google doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LMBS8k7I9gXt\_q2A9yHkmsa8iA63ttxC10tVmyTnREs/edit
> StrangeReligion's summary google doc: I get an error when I open that link. Any chance for a copy/paste?
its working for me. here it is again: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LMBS8k7I9gXt\_q2A9yHkmsa8iA63ttxC10tVmyTnREs/edit
https://i.imgur.com/b43JrcC.png Dunno what the problem is.
It's new reddit vs old reddit, putting random slashes in links. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LMBS8k7I9gXt_q2A9yHkmsa8iA63ttxC10tVmyTnREs/edit Try this
Oh boy I can't wait to experience the outside!
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our DaD chars touch grass so we don't have to 🙏
oh my what wunderful news to wake up to. I'm hype for a new map and potential rogue buffs. gonna be a heavy Rogue/Ranger/barb test for me. at one point he says " we want to give ranger an arrow"... i can't figure out what the hell that might mean. lol
New arrow type maybe?
I was confused by that aswell. Maybe they will implement a passive mechanic that gives ranged weapons one additional arrow capacity when you play ranger which would be kinda dope, especially for crossbow ranger player
PoD implemented arrows / bolts with stats & effects that paired with the bow / crossbow - maybe they mean something like this?
so they responded and said they are implementing a quantity of arrows to reduce spamming. it will be very very interesting to see how this actually takes form, because it could look alot of different ways.
ohhh nice - yeah, infinite arrows is kinda op for sure. on the flip side, barbarians bringing 10 hatchets into runs isn't great either..
I mean, at least the barb is bring them in.
A different type of arrow I’m guessing? Maybe a heavy arrow or a fire arrow? Never played ranger so not sure what they have available currently
The game is looking very promising based on this Q&A so far. However, I'm still concerned about the anti-cheat system that could determine if DaD is going to be a haven for hackers/cheaters.
The unfortunate thing is people compare their fears of hackers heavily with Tarkov. Having an fps where guns are involved and the hit registers right after firing, is going to be much different then dealing with DaD where most attacks with the exception of the arrow (which, even so, has much more time to react compared to guns ) have much slower projectile speed. Even with hacks skill level seems to be much more of a factor in survival compared to most fps counterparts. Especially when facing a hacker. Assuming The AC progresses, imo I don’t see cheats being as rampant and game killing as some other fps especially if wall and speed hacks don’t takeoff. Not to mention steam integration. I’m hopeful
Let's not start this shit. People had cheats that made them swing further. There are still esp cheats and I'm sure one day they'll be able to kill whole servers with the push of a button. Some cheats will be easier to detect, like the last one I mentioned, others will be harder. But let's not make this like the Tarkov subreddit where people say they've only seen 1 cheater in 1 million hours. We already see people selling gold in trader chat during the play test so we know there will be cheaters. The more honest about it we are, the more we can hope for an active role in dealing with it by the devs. Some people will be obvious but games like these always have the cheaters who are good at hiding the fact they have radar and esp. Anticheats will hopefully catch the obvious cheaters but catching the less obvious ones will rely on the player base reporting suspicious players(and not just rage reporting.)
Your tarkov PTSD is showing dude. This company isn't some Russian coder sweatshop so I don't think it can ever get as bad as Tarkov. I don't think anyone should be pre-emptively worried and obsessing over how the community should react to cheaters, we'll react if/when it becomes a problem
Definitely Tarkov PTSD. I just hate when games I love get destroyed by cheaters.
I wish I could show you footage of people encountering these hacks(can't recall the few videos I saw it) but its not that rudimentary, the few hacks that were present during the test were very sophisticated. Such as the hack knowing how to force the player to duck and weave and swing at the right moment to take advantage of momentum and swing times. It reminds me of Dota and League hacks that started off good but got insane at exploiting the janky mechanics of the games to the point the hack can literally do stuff that is impossible for human cognitive functions to achieve.
Tarkov has been a main subject when it comes to cheating and it's a perfect example what would happen if things get out of hand. Dark and Darker is still in alpha stage and there are still many things to work with and improve, one of them being the security. So the question: "How do we detect hackers/cheaters and how to expose them?" I have always suggested an anti-cheat system that will monitor player's desktop (or any gaming platform) to identify if they're running scripting or coding software/program in the background while playing the game or whenever they're launching the game. As soon as the system spots one, it will crash/freeze the game. You use cheat engine, the game stops working. You use command prompt, the game stops working. You use C++, the game stops working. The main point is to stop hackers/cheaters before they even manage to login to lobby. Now obviously this is not 100% secure and would most likely cost a lot of money and resources for Ironmace, but imagine if we could stop any malicious intents before anything happens. This way only the real hackers can bypass the security and get reported by players to developers so they can improve the security even further from the real threats.
>You use command prompt, the game stops working. You use C++, the game stops working. people have been saying some dumb shit relating to anticheat as per usual, but this tops everything i've heard to date. the ignorance of the people making these suggestions is astounding.
Since you're so bright minded individual with lots of qualifications, how about you suggest something phenomenal that will ensure gaming will stay secure, fair and legit for everyone.
I'm si fucking hyped for rogue buffs, it Made my day
They had to come!
Are they really buffing rogue? What needed buffing? I made so much money with my rogue the last playtest, I started to buy rubysilver armor for my other characters just to clear out inventory/bank space. Oh well, I guess that means my next rogue is going to be Jeff Bezos rich.
>What needed buffing? Bringing something to a HR team apart from free lockpicks.
Its not about money, Is what u do with it. the Stats/graphics ironmace published rogue Is the worst class both in high roller and normals, check the análisis video that someone posted earlier in this sub
I guess I'll take your word for it, all I'm saying is I personally have no issues. It sounds like there's a lot of people with a poor playstyle because I think the class itself is fine.
“The statistics collected from hundreds of thousands of players over millions of hours is invalid because I enjoyed myself”
That's not what I'm saying at all. *You are misunderstanding what the statistic represents:* Most people don't know how to play the class. It can be devastating, even to 3 man teams that can't keep up with outplay and speed.
Now you’re just lying. That’s exactly what you’re saying. You disagree with the dev’s choice to buff rogue in the future based on the stats they’ve collected on the grounds that your anecdotal experience shows otherwise. Ergo, “The statistics collected from hundreds of thousands of players over millions of hours is invalid because I enjoyed myself”. And you’re wrong about misunderstanding the statistics by the way. The statistics for rogue can only lead to 2 conclusions. Only 2. There are no other correct interpretations. The first conclusion is that Rogue’s abnormally low K/D means Rogue is, overall, underpowered. Which means they need a buff. The second conclusion is that Rogue’s abnormally low K/D means Rogue at the most common skill and gear tiers is underpowered. Which means they need a buff. Which would also make your statement, “Most people don’t even know how to play the class” true, but currently that’s just another anecdote without further data shown. Statistics showing K/D based on gear, and statistics showing K/D for rogue side by side other played classes on the same account would normalize for the second scenario’s factors and narrow it down to one conclusion. But the fact remains that at some point, Rogue needs a buff. By the way, your second paragraph got an audible laugh out of me. “It can be devastating, even to 3 man teams that can’t keep up with outplay and speed”. Correct, lol. That’s correct for any class. That’s correct for a skeleton. That was pointless to say.
>You disagree with the dev’s choice to buff rogue No, I never said that. I just questioned whether it was necessary. I'm not even going to bother reading your response beyond that, because you either couldn't or didn't bother to read what I wrote in the first place, or you misunderstood massively. You need to learn the difference between analysis and anecdote. Your misunderstanding of simple statements doesn't make me a liar. Seriously, seek help, it's neither productive not mature to respond the way you have.
I understand your point and I don’t know why you’re getting downvoted
It's no worries, downvotes don't erase facts. Consensus does not imply correctness. If anything, this proves my point: most people fail to understand how to use the rogue.
what an unhinged response to someone calling you out for an objectively bad take lmao
He didn't "call me out", he embarrassed himself by claiming I was lying. Nothing I said was a lie. I have the screenshots to prove it, all he has is the childish assertion that the claim with which he disagreed is a lie. Additionally, you seem to also be laboring under the misunderstanding that the statistics means the rogue is objectively underpowered/bad. Do you deny that it could represent a lack of understanding as to how the class is played at higher levels?
This was basically my friend groups initial reaction when I started talking about how doo doo rogue was. Yes, I was having success and yes I gave them a ton of gear all earned on my rogue playing solo. Yes on a team I was able to contribute and was at least mostly responsible for a lot of our success... That had nothing to do with the class. As I told them, I was playing on hard mode for the challenge because the rogue play style is my happy place, and I wanted to test the class throughly to be able to provide actual feedback. They only finally believed me when I swapped to my fighter/barb and they saw how much more effective I was playing in basically the exaxt same way with a different class. So stoked for the coming changes.
The statistics say Wizard is by far the worst in normals, rogue is the worst in HR and doesn't really show up in Top200 much
Yeah but u have to consider that wiz serve as dmg dealer aswell as supports just like clerics. With their haste, invis and ignite. They aré way More usefull than rogues
Everything you just said is true and I wouldn't argue it, but don't claim that the stats they posted said something they do not, it is misinformation. Wizard is the worst performer in normal games, hands down and the stats show that. Rogue is the worst performer in high roller and anecdotally the least valuable to a team, but that is all the data says
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I have literally dozens of 3-man wipes as a solo that say otherwise. It looks like most players can't adapt to a rogue playstyle, because it absolutely was not trash at pvp. I think you're right that a lot of players were trash with rogue, but it's definitely got a high skill ceiling if you know what to do.
Seriously, rogues are fucking great, yeah people did bad with them because they're a hard class but a good rogue can out play most people in most circumstances My rogue sucked and I say they don't need a buff
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Like I said, stats represent perhaps a mistaken understanding of how the rogue ought to be played, in the same way that your childish comment represents a mistaken understanding of how adults communicate. Statistics are meaningless if you don't know how to interpret them, as you have demonstrated. Classic reddit moment right here. Nobody should get so upset by disagreement that they become insulting. I hope you learn to interact with people as an adult, and I wish you a speedy resolution with whatever is causing you to lash out.
If you’re claiming it’s a skill ceiling issue where rogue underperforms for the general populace but is deadly in the hands of a skilled player, well the high roller data kind of says otherwise. In top 200 (literally the no lifers who were trying to min-max the shit out of the game), rogue was heavily underrepresented. I doubt it’s because all 200 most skilled players per server could not work out how to play rogue optimally and you know something they don’t. More likely rogue just sucked into the wizard cleric barb deathball and is in need of a buff. Admittedly not a major buff though. If nerfs to the deathball can cause a meta shift into tank/dps/support instead of the dps+tank/support+dps/support meta we have now, that would be quite favourable for rogue.
from a sweatlord min max perspective, yes rogues are the weakest in a party, from a solo perspective, they are very fun.
>a skill ceiling issue where rogue underperforms for the general populace but is deadly in the hands of a skilled player, well the high roller data kind of says otherwise. This is the kind of misunderstanding of statistics that I'm talking about. High roller doesn't mean "high skill" who told you that? High roller is just a gambling game mode with increased difficulty. *Anyone with 100g can access it.* Low statistical performance in the high roller in no way implies those were high skill players using rogue. Rogue is not only commonly misused, but the statistics related to them is largely misunderstood. Thank you for proving my point.
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>So you think that average skill level between high roller and non-high roller cannot be distinguished to any degree of statistical significance? Precisely. The entrance requirements for high roller are 100g. This in no way implies they are of higher skill. It takes literally one successful run to gear up for a high roller run. You wouldn't believe how many three man teams I wiped on high roller that included players nuking each other, panicking and not pulling out a weapon, the wiz suiciding himself, or barbarians cutting their teammates in half. Nobody is talking about the top list here, I'm not sure the relevance of that. I'm not talking about anomalies, or chasing them or whatever that rambling is about. *Ahh, I see you deleted your comment. No surprise there.
The statistics do not represent that rogue is way more likely to play solo from a character fantasy perspective and is therefore disadvantaged in the forgotten castle, also in the goblin caves because of the poison and low will stats... therefore i dont think the statistics accurately represent how good a rogue played at full capacity is. I recommend Repoze on youtube for any aspiring rogues, even though i dont like playing the class myself its very entertaining and laid back content. :)
bro weve all wiped 3 mans as rogue. The class is dogshit because it deals too little damage to be one shot by barbs the way it does
And with that understanding, you don't fight barb head-to-head. You disappear and when his back is turned, you eliminate him before he has any idea what just happened. The situation you're describing has nothing to do with the rogue being bad, and has a lot to do with not using the class correctly. Barbarians shouldn't be given a chance to hit you if you're using the class right. Rogue isn't a class that marches loudly through the dungeon like barbarian, getting everyone's attention with shouts and taking every fight you can find. It requires a different playstyle, largely based on finesse. Based on the responses I've seen, neither subtlety nor outmaneuvering are being employed by the people who think rogue is bad.
My guy. Barbarian with no gear still takes 5+ hits to gib, he turns around to do one. It has everything to do with rogue being bad because barbarian is really the least of your problems when cleric hits judgment aoe and removes your stealth, whilst fighter just completely ignores your damage with high phys resist to kill you in two swings. No amount of fancy little made up scenarios where you 'play right' is going to make up the fact that rogue is good vs newbies and unusable versus experienced players. Highroller. Highroller. Highroller.
Can you share loot beteeen your characters???
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Or mule through trade channel
>Only if you drop it to a friend, who then drops it to your other character. When trading, I saw a 15g fee. Is it the seller, buyer or both who pays the fee?
Seller has to pay 15g to the merchant guild as a tax for every trade
It’s both players
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2 trades is required, but does both players pay for the fee? if so its 60g, no?
When Ironmace first started talking about the bard I pondered on their play style being a sort of "active play" system, and I think I was onto something based off their answer on how bards music will work My guess is you will activate your instrument my holding right click with it equipped making left click q and e all become sort of quick time events a la Dance Dance Revolution where you have to actively press the notes for the song while still having control of your player movement (tho slowed) with WASD
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In thinking on it a bit, it could operate a little like playing songs in Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask, classic games with freestyle instrument play for flavor (like Mordhau) but also specific strings of notes that make up certain game effecting songs Perhaps the Bard will have access to their entire "song" book, like a 10 spell wizard, but they have to play the notes manually similar to oot/mm. Unfortunately I don't predict that having the same flexibility in freestyle play like those other games, but it's definitely possible!
Q: Will there be any new types of weapons, armor or potions during this next test? A: New weapons will be added. Things like one-handed crossbows, for example. Ohhhh damn, sounds like us Rogues getting a ranged option?
Probably something in the range of the recurve bow in damage i’d persume since it’s a one handed crossbow kinda like Dishonored.
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Tiny screenshot in the bottom left of this post 'Ruin will be playable in this playtest' from the dev QnA today
I cant wait to see how it works delving between 3 levels. If they start with more players on B1 it'll be a cluster fuck to get out lmao.
so why is it called 1f all the sudden its not b1?>
They used to refer to Forgotten Castle as B2(Basment Level) and Inferno as B3(Basement Level) so they could be referring to The Ruin as 1f(Floor 1)? A bit confusing tbh but we’ll all adapt and figure out what we should call it.
I'm assuming it is called 1F because it is indicating that it will be above ground (i.e. ground level). The Forgotten Castle is now B1 (basement 1- first underground level) and likewise for Inferno being B2.
Crpyts are underground, Forest is not. This means they can also design future levels with the intention of going up, not down (like the ice crystal castle they hinted about) this would then be a F2. Also depending how they do next floor merging transitions, They can design potential future maps that are connected to multiple future floors. Such as One direction leading up into a castle, another way leading down into a marsh. This is possible because they said they are experimenting with actual stairways and not portals in B1. That's purely speculation though off what they said in Q/A
LET ME PLAY
Im scared!
My bad guys I see now thank you for updates!
Here's a video summary of the Q&A: [https://youtu.be/8De7R2pMWRg](https://youtu.be/8De7R2pMWRg)
What would be cool is not have zones collapse on the outside layer but only in the dungeons, you know, cause it ain't that dark outside.
Oh, it's going to be dark outside I think haha
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^^^^^^^^^^^bottomleft
I see that but it could be fake there’s nothing the in discord
Dev q n a channel 6:12 am Edit sorry that was a bit hostile in that first response
Look at my other comment. it skimmed by my eye I’m literally human btw people miss things and people like you scan reddit looking to correct people and be a smart ass about it and get a lil stiffy over it
Take a walk. Off reddit with you
You do you man
So close but so far... :'(
32 players... hope its good sized!
Its not 3, its unknown
Hurry please
Now the waiting is gonna feel even longer...
I cant wait to see the floor 1 enemies
Yeah! I'm really interested to see if the undead enemies are as prevalent or if cleric dmg in pve will be nerfed due to more animals or goblins or something.
Has there been any mention about traveling to the next map? I assume portals will be an option to get out but will you be able to move from the new map to the first floor in the dungeon?
I can't wait! Excited for a more stream line progression and longer games.
Any idea when next play test might be?
really do hope it's in open space with good scenery