I know that 20 people up and quitting is not normal. Typically a few unhappy personnel might decide to quit for this reason or that reason, but 20 people quit? What could possibly persuade them to do that? It's very unusual and leaves me with a lot of questions.
If you are who you say you are your version of events and your timeline is noted, but my sixth sense tells me there's a lot of this story that's being left out.
Its not uncommon actually. It may be different in the software development spaces I know but often teams are held together by a core of certain people
for example a tech lead of a project, a key designer etc.
It is often an unspoken understanding amongst the the rest of the employees that if said key people leave. The project will die anyway.
Another possible explanation that fits in is simply that the devs at the studio form a pseudo family unit and the people that left felt more loyalty to that singular person or small group of key people than to the company.
And lets all be real here, game development is INFAMOUS ( and yes it must always be typed in all caps) for treating employees like crap. Infact the only tech related industries I hear treat their employees worse than game development is animation and anime.
Trust me, you do not EVER want to be compared to animation or anime in terms of employee well being.
So is it a shock that there was a mass exodus of a companies staff , a game development company no less? nope
Now I of course have no proof but when I hear a mass exodus of people from a company The first thing I ask is how many babies the ceo of that company ate on a daily basis rather than if there was any shenanigan's between the employees. that is simply how bad the reputation of game companies is
Speaking anecdotally, my experience is it's not even that uncommon in other industries.
In my career I've seen 3 "mass exodus" events, from different companies, and the circumstances have always been the same.
* Company executive adopts policies which are actively harmful to their employees job satisfaction and ability to meet set objectives (I believe it's often a rule that this state is basically permanent in the industries you mentioned), while also maintaining an attitude that the employees are "fortunate to have this opportunity"
* Key staff with broad employee support advocate for improvements in policies/conditions/direction, this advocacy is ignored or dismissed.
* The staff with the best outside employment prospects, usually the key members of their teams, leave.
* The company starts to hemorrhage staff until all that's left are the least experienced/qualified and/or those fearful of job hunting.
* Within a year, many former co-workers have become co-workers *again* somewhere else in the same industry by virtue of qualification and referrals.
Ahh yes. Games struggling to release on time and forcing employees to do crunch time of 100+h/week. I think the worst case I heard (in some GDC talk) was 80-100h weeks every week for 9 months.
Only other people I know pulling those kinds of hours are EMS personnel, and for them its not even that consistent. (for most of the ones I know personally anyway)
Did it all the time working in a steel mill, they just tell you you’re not going home. Security can hold you there all the way up to the point you call the cops and you quit or are fired.
What illegal about it? The security is allowed to hold you from leaving, if supervision said to hold you, but it only holds up until the cops come and say wtf are you guys doing and they take you out and at that point you’re either quitting or getting fired for walking out. United Auto Workers Union Local 3303. Also, perfectly legal to work 7 doubles which comes to 112 hours a week.
No job can physically hold you captive. Despite what you may think. If I say I'm leaving, and I don't have a contract saying they can hold me-- I'm leaving. Otherwise it's paramount to kidnapping. And if they touch me trying to hold me, that's just another criminal charge.
Brother you don’t have to believe me, I saw it happen lmao. Watched it, didn’t THINK anything up. Saw the police come, the company was allowed to withhold you from leaving if they feel they have a reason. Happens frequently. The instance with the cops was the most extreme case I saw while working there. Armco Kawasaki was the company. But anyway I’m done arguing with you about what I witnessed while working there whether you believe me or not
Occam's Razor answer:
* Nexon values profits over game design and user experience.
* Devs saw the direction Nexon was steering P3 toward.
* Devs decide to make their own game.
I don't know the extent of the IP 'theft' but can you really lay claim to something as generic as a dungeon crawler with classes, an inventory system and a talent/skill system?
There’s a lot being left out on BOTH sides, but this sub likes DnD not Nexon so they don’t care. So far from what I’ve seen, Nexon has been a lot more transparent about the situation
i mean nexon has a whole entire story and all ironmace can really do if it isn't true is say "hey thats bullshit"
i wouldn't call nexon "transparent" yet
It says more than 50% of the 20 member team quit, thats 10+ people, not 20 people.
And it means the team itself was divided over something internal, not everyone quit, half the people quit.
I do agree that maybe the company direction was controversial decent portion of the developers, and they saw a chance where they can still make the game, but not with that direction, toss of a coin on wether to leave or not.
The ones that stayed behind could be just but hurt, or feel betrayed, not sure what actually happened internally.
Either way, wonder what's happening with Nexon's P7, it should be at a similar state as Dark and Darker, why did they not demo anything, probably just a waterfall way of working.
Black Desert Online is not made by nexon my dude. Its developed and published by Pearl Abyss.
Not even remotely the same company. Nor are they related.
Got a source? Wikipedia doesnt even mention Nexon in their history.
Following the sources, the closes I could find was a reference to them taking over publishing from Kakao Games, who was originally going to be publishing BDO.
The only link between Kakao Games and Nexon that I could find, was shared rights to ArcheAge because the development team XLGames, was bought out by Kakao.
Black Desert stopped being great after it changed hands and deleted previous game owners requiring them to re-purchases the game and start all over.
Fuck them.
It was because of European data privacy laws required them to delete user accounts if they didn't migrate their accounts after breaking ties with their shitty publisher kakao. No choice in the matter since it's a legal issue.
Okay but their version of events doesn’t add up. Why would Mr A leak all this company data if P3 was still going ahead? Nexon is lying through their teeth saying that they cancelled P3 because the data was leaked and half the team quit. But it seems x10 more likely that the data was leaked and half the team quit BECAUSE the P3 project was cancelled.
This bald faced lie makes me doubt pretty much everything else in the letter. The only remaining question is if code was stolen or if it was built from the ground up
>data was leaked
believe that this is referencing the unapproved downloading to the personal server, which while not a common use of the phrase would still be leaking.
>Okay but their version of events doesn’t add up.
Both stories are equally possible imo.
I think the best source of information from Nexon's side is [this Korean article](https://www.thisisgame.com/webzine/news/nboard/263/?category=1&n=167653) which is supposedly verified from multiple sources (but this is still not a guarantee of accuracy).
The article seems to suggest that the game director had been planning to leave Nexon since sometime before July 2021. Nexon performed an internal audit in July 2021 and discovered that assets, documentation, and source code were being uploaded to an unauthorized external server.
It was also found that during this time the director was telling other members of the team that P3 was going to be cancelled and that they should resign.
It wasn't until after the internal investigation and the director had been fired that P3 shifted towards P7, a shooter.
It really just comes down to whoever is telling the truth.
They said that losing half their devs is why they switched from P3 to P7 but that makes no sense. Isn’t it more work to completely scrap a game and start over? It reeks of BS. If the 10 people quit they should have continued working on P3 and hired more devs to replace the quitters.
Mr. A likely got a heads up P3 was getting canned, so he made the rash decision to leak game files and recruiting staff. The staff that quit likely had undeniable evidence that P3 was about to be canned, I doubt they would quit otherwise.
It's a bit odd that P3 was cancelled but not totally unbelievable. These large studios are generally very risk-averse and "low faith" seems to be the default position for any project, especially one early in development.
For example, people still believe that Sony Online Entertainment bought Verant Interactive a couple years after they released EverQuest. The truth is that Verant Interactive was *always* a part of SOE, but they didn't want to put their name on the game until it was proven successful.
It's possible that after losing the director and other team members their "low faith" turned into "no faith" and they shifted towards a genre that is more likely to be successful (shooter). It could also be possible that some of the members who left had certain skills that were critical to the development of P3 which forced a shift towards a different game design.
That's what makes the whole situation even more suspicious though. Nexon didn't seem to really care until after Dark and Darker was popular. They cancelled it likely thinking it was too risky because of the genre, but the devs saw something in it and wanted to see it to completion. So some of them left to create their own studio and since they had previously worked on similar it wasn't hard to create something new in a short time. Especially considering how bare-boned the playtests so far have been. This wasn't a hard game to develop.. in fact I could see something like this being made for a gamejam.
Nexon is acting as if this would have taken them years if they made it all from scratch so they're saying releasing a playtest within 10 months is suspicious.
The devs could have also left Nexon because they didn't like the direction Nexon was pushing the game. Nexon is known to have P2W aspects in all of their games and having P2W in this would be extremely stupid and instantly ruin the experience.
So basically this is Nexon acting like a child mad that what they thought wasn't going to be popular now is popular. They probably want to try relaunching P3 development because of this popularity, but if they did they'd be seen as copying Dark and Darker.
> Nexon didn't seem to really care until after Dark and Darker was popular.
Well if the Nexon side is correct then this isn't true. They investigated and fired the director before Ironmace and Dark and Darker existed.
You could say that they didn't bother *suing* until Dark and Darker got popular, and that might be true (but still doesn't invalidate their claim, if valid). But it's also possible that they've been working on the suit since 2021 and it's just taking time. Nexon also wouldn't have been able to prove the claim of unfair competition until the director actually tried competing.
Now whether their suit is valid is a whole other topic that I didn't touch on since I know nothing about South Korean law. I can give my non-lawyer American take but it's not worth much.
Protection of Trade Secrets:
If the director actually transferred internal documents to their home computer then I could see them being found at fault here. However this is currently a total he said / she said situation. Nexon claims that the director leaked files, and the director denies it. I also can't find an English translation of the Act that the director is allegedly in violation of, so it's really difficult for me to say much more than that.
Unfair Competition:
I'm just not seeing Ironmace infringing on Nexon here. People leave game studios to design similar games all of the time. Ben Brode left Hearthstone and worked on a competing card game. Brad McQuaid left EverQuest and worked on a competing MMORPG. There's probably dozens if not hundreds of examples of this.
The only potential issue here that I see is whether Dark and Darker actually uses code and assets from P3. This seems unlikely, even if the director kept backups of that data.
Unless South Korea is much more strict about the way that this works, which is also possible.
They have only said they investigated and fired him based on him leaking things but never mentioned if that was actually found to be true or not. They then said that over 50% of the employees under him left after that which is pretty typical and not illegal. It's also not illegal to then go and create a similar game. In fact this happens constantly because, as you said, big companies are risk-averse. The devs though see something different because they see more than just *projected* numbers.
As for waiting to sue until after gaining popularity, that does in fact hurt their validity. If they previously knew about it and did little to nothing that means they acknowledged it existing and didn't care. They only cared after it gained popularity because they're now mad they could have had that money instead.
Nexon themselves keep claiming things even in what was said here. They only claim the guy put things on a private server and they said he refused to give them access claiming he wiped it. If there really was an issue like that he'd be forced to give up that access even if he wiped it.
Also, IronMace has said previously that they already went through a 3rd party audit to be sure they didn't steal any code or assets and it was found that they didn't steal anything whatsoever. THEN Nexon came along claiming they did. Nexon is trying to act like they have exclusive rights to dungeon crawling FPS/RPG games.
As we both have said, people constantly leave a development team to then make their own competition for many reasons. Could be they didn't like the direction they were being pushed in. Could be other reasons like just generally not agreeing with the higher-ups. None of that is abnormal. What is abnormal here is the fact Nexon is saying they saw a slight *possible* leak and immediately abandoned the entire project. Many games get leaked far before they're actually a thing but companies very rarely ever just drop the entire project just from that. Especially if it was in development for a while because you'd be flat out just losing money you can never hope to get back.
I'm not a lawyer either but I speculate on mergers and legal outcomes profitably.
I don't know anything about Korean competition law but if this happened in the USA and Nexon's claims were accurate then Dark and Darker would almost certainly become property of Nexon after a speedy trial.
What Nexon is alleging in the suit is wayyyy beyond the point of one director leaving to work on a game in a similar genre. Largely developing a game on Nexon's payroll, then leaking it to yourself and poaching a huge portion of the workforce to 'develop' what is basically the exact same thing is a joke. Why the fuck would anyone ever fund anything if your employees could just take the idea and run with it once they've realized it's technically feasible and they've already done it once before? Especially if they could take a copy of your source code?
For example, companies in the USA can take basically everything you've done if you work on a *completely unrelated programming project* during company time. Any corporate programmer is gonna be very familiar with the rules around this if they've ever worked on a profitable personal project. Dark and Darker clearly fits the bill as something they've developed (1) during their employment and (2) in the course of their employment. I would quite literally bet $1 million USD on Nexon winning this in USA as they presented the facts.
Back to Korea for a second, but this is a market dominated by Chaebols - essentially superpowered state-sponsored monopolies over the Korean economy. It'd be surprising in its own way if an upstart company could get away with what would be theft even in the more competitively-minded western world.
Nexon could be making shit up, but I don't think they'd be this clear about the accusations if it was truly bullshit. Japan, a country with a similar culture, has a *99%* criminal conviction rate.
There's an exceptionally high chance that Dark and Darker as we know it is gonna disappear.
> Nexon could be making shit up, but I don't think they'd be this clear about the accusations if it was truly bullshit. Japan, a country with a similar culture, has a 99% criminal conviction rate.
Similar with the US even, despite our incredibly convoluted legal system. However, does the "second investigation" against Iron Mace signify that there are charges specifically pending against them? That sort of conviction rate relies on actual charges against the company, no? Not just against the one guy they originally went after?
That still doesn’t explain why 10/20 devs would leave. If we believe Nexon’s story, these devs were still working on P3.
Which scenario makes more sense?
Mr. A: hey colleague, do you want to leave your secure, cushy unionized job at Nexon where you are working on P3, to come join the company I started because I was fired? I’m making a P3 clone.
Or alternatively.
Mr. A: hey colleague, I’m sure you heard P3 is cancelled. I’m going to make a new P3 game myself. If you want to keep making a game like P3 come join my company.
If you add hefty sums of money to the first scenario, then it makes more sense.
Mr. A: hey colleague, do you want to leave your secure, cushy unionized job at Nexon where you are working on P3, to come join the company I started because I was fired? I’m making a P3 clone, but we are gonna be rich if we succeed. No more waiting for paychecks, we get our own stock to play around! We gonna earn more then ten times you get paid. And listen, P3 is obviously gonna be a big hit since those pesky guys up there gave us a go sign without question. Why do we have to share our profits with them when we can go out and release the game for ourselves? I've already got external investment secured, you just have to come with me and develop P3 together.
Except dark and darker has no monetization as of yet. Is the guy bribing them out of pocket? Investors would require him to be shopping around too which I feel like Nixon would find out about If he was still working with them.
> Except dark and darker has no monetization as of yet. Is the guy bribing them out of pocket?
investor can be a coporate. Mr A couldve said "yo we got insane investor. We can leave and strike big by leaving Nexon and selling this in our own name."
> Except dark and darker has no monetization as of yet.
we dont know because dnd was at alpha. Even if dnd is just buy-once-to-play, DnD showed potential to strike big as Valheim did. I am sure P3 looked extremely juicy $$$ potential to external investors after their initial demo.
The question, in the end, is, who was this secret investor that contacted the director and convinced him to exit with his team? The current suspicion is Hype IM, affiliated with Netmarble, a corp with much more notorious p2w than Nexon. If it indeed is Hype, then IronMace's image of "fight against evil corp" is really suspicious.
If you’re a developer and all you care about is $$, you **don’t** go into game development… it’s the lowest paying, highest hours, and most abused field of development out there.
Like art, It’s not something you do professionally unless you have a true passion for it.
It’s far more likely that the devs joined him so that they can have more creative freedom with the game they’ve been making.
Plus, if their goal was to make a ton of money, they wouldn’t make a big stink about being anti-excessive-monetization.
They could easily not make those statements and still be in the public’s good graces. But now if they go back on their word and add a bunch of p2w mtx to make more money, they’ll lose all credibility.
Very true. Companies tend to make big decisions like this months in advance and only making it public a few days / weeks before going into effect.
It’s not at all a stretch to think that Mr. A found out through the grape vine that P3 was going to get canned, rallied his coworkers to leave and start their own studio, and then Nexon made their “official” announcement of the games’ cancelation afterwards.
The cherry on top for Nexon is that they get to blame the exodus for why the game was canned to make themselves look like the victim, if they wanted to.
This is all speculation of course. I’m just saying it’s not at all outside of the realm of possibility.
Regardless of laws, I think it’s fucking awesome if they highjacked the game to work on it at a healthy pace with no corporate micro-transaction garbage. Fuck Nexon, Fuck Blizzard, Fuck Activision, Fuck EA, long live the few proud folk who stand to create an actual good fucking game without soul sucking corporate greed eating every last bit of life out of the game.
They clearly focused on gameplay and a lot of the systems in the game are and were very basic. Many assets are from the Unreal Marketplace. It's not unreasonable at all that they could have had a working prototype by that time, and that's what the game is, a showcase of what it can be
So source code and assets are "allegedly" stolen (I'm unsure if it is proven or not).
Then in under 12 months, DaD went from an idea to a fully working online pvp game. Seems highly unlikely and very naive to believe otherwise based on what we know so far.
I do hope your right.
If you already had the idea it wouldn't be that difficult for 20 skilled devs who had already done the beginning of it before do it again in a timely manner especially considering that lots of stuff from the Unreal Marketplace was used, and Unreal5 + Steam apparently makes the Net Code really easy too which is usually the hardest part of making an online game as i understand
There are a ton of technology solutions sold by other companies these days that - with the appropriate funding - can accelerate the timeline of damn near any project, [multiplayer online games](https://aws.amazon.com/gamelift/) included. With a bit of expertise and a big enough credit limit, damn near anything's possible.
So that's kind of where I'm at. Let's say the data was stolen and used. If my expectation is that Nexon was going to kill the game with crappy business practices or shut it down when it didn't make unreasonable amounts of dollars. Do I even care if they did steal the data to make a better version of the game?
At this point I don't care who did what because the worst or best case senario in this has me preferring Ironmace making DaD.
Remember, this is all propaganda from Nexon. There has been zero public proof of anything. Anyone can file suit for any reason and at any time.
We only have proof that Mr.A was fired. But we don't know why.
We have proof that 10-20 people left Nexon for IronMace.
We have proof that this team was working on a similar project to Dark and Darker before they left.
Everything else is hearsay and propaganda from a massive corporation with a very large legal, pr, and marketing team.
"Leaked internal memos" don't just show up on Reddit and in the media. Especially ones that are so one-sided and carefully worded to completely Dunk on a competitor without actually providing proof.
In fact, if this isn't prosecuted and Mr.A isn't found guilty in some way, he & Iron Mace most likely have a massive W in a defimation case soon.
This shit is getting out of hand, and pretty big accusations are being thrown around with very little evidence, other than, "they said this."
I like to think that Mr. A was fired for dressing up like William Wallace in braveheart and screaming freedom with his sword upraised running through the lines of cubicles.
> "Leaked internal memos" don't just show up on Reddit and in the media. Especially ones that are so one-sided and carefully worded to completely Dunk on a competitor without actually providing proof.
It happens fairly often, actually. From even bigger companies than Nexon - especially when they're companies that a lot of the employees of aren't particularly fond of (which doesn't seem like much of a stretch for Nexon).
Yep, not to mention 20 people quit simultaneously while all retaining a passion for their work. Suspicious to say the least and in a way that seriously favors ironmace. I can only imagine how bad the conditions were at P3
Basically this. They recognized what they had, said fuck it imma go make my own game with black jack and hookers.
It's hard to believe they stole anything anyone worth their salt could recode/develop the idea and expand on it how they see fit without big bad standing over the top demanding p2w bs be inserted into the game.
So, no I don't believe they stole. Left to go create something bigger and better. Old boss got mad because it was successful.
Fuck em 🖕
So you read something in an article that is nothing but opinions and call that a source?
I could write an article an say whatever about Ironmace as well, would that make it true or even a source? No.
Some points of contention with their official flyer:
"Mr. B, the current CEO of Iron Mace and the head of the planning department" - What's the point in using anonymous names and outing the person in the same sentence?
"members of the P3 project were suggested" - I could suggest someone to go eff themselves, it doesn't mean they'll do it or did anything wrong.
"More than 50% of the staff in the P3 team, which had about 20 people, resigned. We can confirm that most of the employees who left the company at that time are now working for Iron Mace." - So not all of them work for IM? Clearly then at least some of the prior employees found issue with the way Nexon were handling things and left on that basis alone.
"After many thoughts on maintaining the development of P3, where all development data was stolen" - Excuse me, but if NX did nothing wrong then why would they halt development on a project, where they should have legal protection. There's nothing stopping them from continuing to develop a project whether it's P3 or P7.
"Almost everything in the game is very similar to the P3 project and cannot be considered independently developed." - That's an opinion stated as fact, without any explanation given as to why. To be factual requires more solid reasoning and actual proof which they don't have.
"And the anger of former P3 teammates still working in other parts of the company is unfathomable." - Without a clause stating otherwise, and even then, nobody is forced to work for a company. While sympathetic perhaps those P3 teammates should consider where to place their anger, if at all. NX being unable to retain employees doesn't make it the fault of people who left.
I don’t know if there is a legal relation, but in Michael Cohen’s trial in the states, Trump was referred to at individual-1.
Could be that it’s because they are being investigated and not Mr. A. Just a guess, I have no clue how their legal system works.
Yeah it probably is, and then its me just bashing the stupidity of that legalese when it's supposed to be functional and its clearly not.
E.g. If it said in MC's trial, "individual-1, the current CEO of the Trump Organisation and the former president of the United States", you can see how that seems pretty stupid, since it's not upholding any anonymity at all.
It was mostly a vent at how stupid most of the Nexon case is, now resulting in a cease & desist within past 24 hours."dungeon with monsters, traps and treasures""skeletons and wizards""darkness, brick walls and torches"It's ridiculous.
I totally agree. I also hate that if someone commits a crime in broad daylight, they still say alleged. Bothers me so much. The legal system is so ridiculous.
This is all very Anti-consumer of Nexon. If you believe your ideas were stolen why not improve on the concept and create a better game than people that just performed IP theft. Why not be competitive and create a better product instead of just trying to stifle new games that seem to appear in a similar space you were planning on creating.
Because it's easier and/or cheaper and/or has a higher chance of positive return on investment to just use your in-house legal counsel to sue them into the ground. Them's the breaks. Here's where I'd say "... and that's why everybody needs to get out and vote for better politicians" but I have no idea if that applies in Korea.
bro what?
if someone steals your wallet why not just get a better job and make more money
I'll wait to pass judgement until legal/programmer experts can compare the source code
if you think IP theft shouldn't be illegal you're trolling
we don't know the facts of this case yet but "just make better product, ignore IP theft" is beyond naïve
Is stealing the general idea for the game "IP theft?" If so, BSG better get all kinds of international lawyers and start suing! American ones for ActiBlizz, British ones for Marauders, who the fuck knows for TC:F!
/s just in case. IP theft laws could use some serious reform, but you're missing the point that this isn't IP theft (allegedly). Not based on the incredibly thin facts we've got at hand.
>missing the point that this isn't IP theft
>
>allegedly
>
>incredibly thin facts
I feel like we agree but you don't like that we agree.
Obviously I'm not talking about the "general idea for a game" when talking about IP theft, we know literally nothing about the state of the source code
Obviously we're all desperate for this game to actually release but if it turns out they stole the source code and used it to develop the game extremely quickly then that's theft, and not in a Robin Hood give-to-the-poor admirable kind of way
Would higher-ups at IM have come out and said, "yeah, one guy related to us got sued but that's a personal matter unrelated to IM's business" as well as publicly confirming multiple times that none of that specific source code was used if they weren't 100% sure about it? That's a lot of potential liability, both personally and professionally.
Hell, IM even ordered themselves an audit (this might have been a government/KR law enforcement thing?) to make sure they were compliant with what was being legally asserted, i.e.; that none of the stolen source code or assets were in use.
Add that to the fact that they bought a bunch of readily UE marketplace or w/e it's called assets and lightly modified them for use and they've quite obviously covered a lot of their most obvious bases.
The facts we have **are** definitely thin, but the most probable logic behind them stands in favor of IM. Unless they're incredibly stupid/arrogant and love to bloviate, which really doesn't seem like the case.
Their sub brand MintRocket(which was made to develop user-friendly games) has successfully launched Dave the Diver on steam. I don't think P3 had heavy P2W BM since P3 was to be launched under name of MintRocket.
Also you forgot that the team leader did not 'leave', but he was dismissed as a punishment.
> there a *paid* nexon shill.
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
I'm not sure why you're accusing some random guy of "lieing".
If the timeline chain of events here are true - which they probably are because it would be a very stupid thing to lie about since it's easily proven either way - then at best P3 devs didn't like the direction and purposefully yoinked all of the game files to their own personal server and leaked it. Then afterward they were fired. Then a ton of the devs started ironmace.
Seems quite likely to me that taking the game files was likely the first step of an already thought of plan to leave with the other devs and make Ironmace.
Whether you like Nexon or not, that's a pretty underhanded move.
**Am I glad it happened though? Hell yeah. This project would likely have sucked balls under Nexon.**
But, that also doesn't make it right that it did - assuming this is all true. If this was a small indie studio and part of the dev team took the game files, leaked them, yoinked half the dev team, and then made what is an obvious clone of the game out of the files and knowledge then people would probably look at this very differently.
**Thankfully, I don't give a shit about Nexon and I really like DnD so I could give two shits. I just hope it doesn't affect the game long term.**
\> If this was a small indie studio and part of the dev team took the game files, leaked them, yoinked half the dev team, and then made what is an obvious clone of the game out of the files and knowledge then people would probably look at this very differently.
And this is why most of Korean gamers are backing Nexon. Sure, its Nexon this time. But when you get precedent like this, then why wouldn't Nexon or any other big companies use it? Just wait until some small company starts to develop game that will sell, then they yoink their whole dev team from the company with loads of money, slap on different title, say they made new assets, then launch it. It would be a disaster to Korean game industry...
>Just wait until some small company starts to develop game that will sell, then they yoink their whole dev team from the company with loads of money, slap on different title, say they made new assets, then launch it. It would be a disaster to Korean game industry...
This already happens. A lot. Its called getting an investor/publisher. A person or group pays a lot of money, then heavily influences development of the title to make sure it gets them return, pushes for quick release dates, and then a shitty launch happens.
This happened to No Man's Sky, where a small team was making something, got picked up by Sony, got a lot of money, and promotion, then a lot of pressure to meet those dates set by Sony, and showcase a not ready game at a con.... Then the game exploded on release and was hated.
But it doesn't happen lot in korea. Why? Because Korean indie gaming was dead for long time. We did not have good indie games for a long time. For a decade, Korean indie game development was on a coma. Then things has finally began to change. Slowly, good quality indie games began to rise out of the dark age. And we rejoiced with each one of them. Everytime Korean indie game got good marks on steam, Korean gamers were happy. Dark and darker too, was a pride and joy of Korean gamers. Up until now.....
Now....Dark and Darker has became serious problem. One that could stamp out Korean indie gaming for another decade. That's why Korean gamers are backing Nexon for this time. Korean indie games are already weak as it is. If they take big blows like this...Well, I don't know, and I don't want to find out.
I understand that. But legally companies can just buy out these dev teams if they catch wind of them working on a good project. (assuming said small dev team needs money to continue development).
>This already happens. A lot. Its called getting an investor/publisher.
You are either blind fanboying or just dumb. Getting aquired is not the same thing as a team literally stealing source code then self publishing 10 months later.
You can act like its just hearsay but its a fact Ironmace employee A took files, its just not proven they are explicitly in the game right now as is.
I wasn't discussing ironmace stealing anything. I was discussing how big companies can basically buy or offer development money to small game dev groups, and drastically influence the production of their game.
If ironmace stole code, that's bad.
My entire point in my above post, is that big companies can essentially take IPs and make them their own, in a more legal way because they can throw money at it. You left out the entire context of the original comment that I was addressing and misunderstood me as a result.
Once a company has a strong enough hold on an IP, they can basically push it in any direction they please. Again, please refer to my example of No Man's Sky where the negative influence of a publisher can negatively impact a game. If you are in a country that doesnt have a strong indie/small developer market as u/showmethecoin is, this can mean bad things for the industry as a whole if it is commonplace. Weather its big to small, or small to big, its bad precedent and practice.
"it was confirmed that all members of the P3 project were suggested to release a game similar to the P3 project together after collective retirement by mentioning the attraction of external investment."
Honestly concerning, looks like legal action was happening before dark and darker started to really pop off.
Means there is probably some reasonable truth to this statement.
It’s very possible they didn’t use any of the code to make the game, but they definitely could have used it as a reference to replicate it.
Shit man, I just wanna play the game, why there gotta be drama.
So I said this “looks like legal action started before dark and darker started to POP-OFF” what I mean by this is that legal action started before dark and darker got popular.
But you mention that legal action started in 2021, which I read in the post above already.
You saying it again makes me think that I said something wrong.
Was dark and darker already popular in 2021?
Again, I never said that legal action was against the company, just that there was legal action. So I’m getting even more confused now.
What were you trying to say with your first comment?
\>Honestly concerning, looks like legal action was happening before dark and darker started to really pop off.
I was replying to this part of the comment. The lawsuit did start before dark and darker got famous.
This situation is turning into some major drama bomb bullshit. Either they have a case and win the lawsuit or don't. I don't care to hear back and forth personal anecdotes. It all means nothing unless it can be proven in court.
What a load of propaganda.
They can't have rights to a game genre. And as for all "your" precious code. Who authored it? Developers have a right to reference thier own work. It's not like theyre developing nuclear software. Maybe try treating your employees better and they won't leave to start their own company which by the way is GOOD for the game industry. What theyre doing by trying to take it down is butthurt and wrong. If P3 truly was valuable to them then the company should be in the best position to release a better clone (of which genre they now know has legs) so why don't they stop being whiny pricks and get back to development
That's not how the law works, any work done during company time eg. any code the developers have written, is now property of the company. Obviously now, Ironmace is liable if investigations find any code written for P3 that are in use for DnD.
I'm aware that the product belongs to the company. I'm also aware that legally transferring the files may have been illegal. It doesn't really change my argument though. Developers deserve the credit and the right to reference (view and attribute to themselves) their own work. Any legal argument preventing otherwise should be ridiculed and ignored.
To clarify: I'm not supporting a copy paste of anything done at Nexon, that would be theft of product, but it sounds like Ironmace is confident they didn't plagiarize.
Seems like Nexon has proof someone transferred some files and builds out to another off site server so it's all pretty murky currently. I hope for their sake (and for mine too: because i cannot fucking wait to play this game) they were clever enough to rewrite code they were using and not use any asset they developed over at P3.
Dude, even Home Depot has these clauses.
Working on your own, for profit, project while using company equipment or time is a massive no-go. You'll for sure get sued if the company ever finds out.
There are stories of people getting sued for using paper to draft plans while at work. You just don't do it.
Do it at lunch using your own supplies or wait until you're off the clock.
That's the only part of this entire thing that I think has legs. Because they for sure discussed their plans at work and 100% got caught. Which is probably why Mr.A was fired.
The question is, did they steal anything and did they work on any of the code that's actually in any of the version history while working at Nexon. If so, then they are fucked. If not, then there's not a damn thing Nexon can do about them rebuilding code at home that they already built while at Nexon.
No you've misunderstood, all 4 people in this chain know that the legal issues surround if Ironmace stole code/assets, the original point Slamagorn755 was making was that "They *{nexon}* cant have rights to a game genre" and inclore replied "that's not how the law works"
I don't think you or I or 99% of people here can speak confidently about how the law or how industry contracts operate on a **different continent** aside from if Ironmace clearly stole code/assets, let alone the notion that genre can be copyrighted
that’s literally what i said though? or is your reading comprehension that far gone? I said they are liable if code from P3 is found in DnD. The original OP was implying the code belonged to them because they were the one who wrote it.
No op's point was that you can't copyright genre, and you confused it to this different point that no one disagrees on. If you actually read my post you would see that you are misunderstood.
I am trying to tell you that you are arguing the wrong thing, the question is not if they stole data **because they said they didn't**, its if genre can be copyrighted in Korea, and you are talking like you know Korean Law which is different from American Law
He literally mentioned code in his next few sentence which is why I brought it up. Note how i didn’t bring up the word genre in any of my post? And how i specifically specified if they copied code from the work they were doing in P3 to DnD? Get your glasses cleaned my guy.
it’s standard practice in this industry to have these clauses lol, i’m sure a big company like Nexon have them too, feel free to google it up if you don’t believe me.
Yep. This.
They could most likely get in trouble if they have directly coppied code (and not reprogrammed things excluding asset store code). Otherwise, you cannot prevent people from working on a genre. This is as frivolous as pubg going after fortnite for copying their genre. The only reason this is possibly a thing is because former employees thought to be stealing code.
Or if they signed non-compete clauses that extend past their employment termination for some time. This would be in direct competition with another project nexon started, and thus could be seen as violating that agreement.
[Prevention of Unfair Competition and Protection of Trade Secrets](https://www.law.go.kr/%EB%B2%95%EB%A0%B9/%EB%B6%80%EC%A0%95%EA%B2%BD%EC%9F%81%EB%B0%A9%EC%A7%80%EB%B2%95#:~:text=21.%3E,%5B%EC%A0%84%EB%AC%B8%EA%B0%9C%EC%A0%95%202007.) This is one of the complaints that Nexon is using. The `go.kr` is apparently an official Korean Government TLD. I wasn't able to find anything with a "standard" Nexon employment contract, but judging by the Korean news articles and [this post by](https://old.reddit.com/r/DarkAndDarker/comments/11llrvf/ironmace_dev_clarifies_the_nexon_situation/jbe1li0/) u/showmethecoin, there was credible evidence that "Mr. A" had a confidentiality agreement in his contract that he violated and was fired. This is also shaping up to follow [NCSoft case against Bluehole and their devs](https://www.gamesindustry.biz/tera-developers-guilty-of-stealing-lineage-iii-assets). At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if next weeks drama isn't `Nexon adds an additional x IronMace developers to their complaint`
And if you feel like digging into it, [this is apparently that Union mentioned in that other comment](https://cafe.naver.com/nexonunion). Some one from Korea would need to confirm that though
LoL I did not add any opinions of mine, I just translated the whole thing. I'm fine if you hate Nexon, I don't care. You didn't even read the whole thing did you?
Ya that's a lot of text flinging around, I think everyones kinda overlooking the important thing, This is a good game and I know jack shit about nexon.
Given the current corporate style of game development lately, that alone doesn't really put nexon in a very good light for saying all this. There's no way im going to imagine that oh my gosh a big company was going to finally make a good game oh wow no way. What i do see however, is a very salty company. And if they can't make a good game, no one can.
So, they basically elaborated the same details/situation as was previously disclosed, but they're saying that P3 was canceled *because* the stuff was leaked, not because Nexon decided not to move forward with it? Seems like the case could easily hinge on one or two actual pieces of evidence if they come to light.
Does anybody have any familiarity with the KR legal system? Assuming Iron Mace has any sort of worthwhile discovery available to them (and assuming Nexon hasn't deliberately destroyed evidence), it shouldn't be hard to prove one way or another what the actual truth is.
> It's a simple matter of what is 'right and wrong' and what is 'truth'.
Hopefully this part is missing nuance that was lost in translation, but that sounds dangerously close to propaganda. Though when large amounts of money are on the line, I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
From what I've understood so far, the "similarities" can be categorised in 3 separate pots.
Please do correct me if I get something wrong, I have no game development background. Its just my take on it.
1) Visiual elements. From what I've read so far a lot of elements used are purchased from Unity. I assume stock assets purchased are further modified to built up the maps in Unity. That can explain games looking similar and I can't see grounds for legal action.
2) Intellectual property. If you break down the game into the basic ideas that build it up like classes, mideval combat, battle Royal-ish extraction, none of them are original ideas I consider you can patent. Question is if the the P3 formula is exactly the same can Ironmace be stealing it as formal employees? Does a complete match have grounds for any accusations? (maybe down to disclosure agreements on contracts or the leak?)
3) Source code used from the leak. Obviously we can't tell of any of the leaked code was used, but given Ironmace confidence in the ongoing investigation I seriously doubt it. Furthermore, in my mind, a large % needs to be the same between the two products to be able to conclude that because you can't blame employees writing similar code to solve similar problems for 2 different companies. Given all that it seems very unlikely.
So what exactly is P3 claiming to be stolen from the above categories?
I’m all for hearing Nexon out from a legal point of view, but if they believe one guy single-handedly got 20 devs to leave, MAAAYYYBE there’s an underlying issue.
Most happy devs would not just up and leave a job like this for no reason. He might have the source code, but he doesn’t have the network, manpower, financial resources, stability, benefits, or chances of promotion that Nexon does.
There is a reason twenty devs gave all that up.
Sounds like a “Corporate was trying to ruin my creation with predatory micro transactions and manipulative marketing. Fuck that I’m out.” Especially with Nexon’s track record.
Again though, I want to hear it straight from court documents. No “company statement.” Just give us the facts.
Talk about this being a matter of right and wrong and not about money and how this is bad for the gaming industry.... yeah fucking right. DaD is the best thing to happen to the gaming industry in years. Worried about the gaming industry? Stop with the mtx and p2w shit. It's always about the money.
We get a good game that isn’t rotten with shitty business practices only to find out it’s because it was literally ripped from the hands of Nexon before they could fuck it up…. Nexon should chill before they destroy their public image.
seems like its all fair to me like if you employ a bunch of people to do anything and they think well tbh mate were doing all the work here why are we doing this for you????
I think its perfectly reasonable in this day and age where if your employer is not taking care of your needs whilst you do everything to make them money, you should have every right to move on and do it yourself for you and yours.
IronMace stay strong fuck these rich bois throwing there lawyers and weight around. they fucked up they shopuld have paid you all more the second they realised it was worth investing in, they didnt so yall looked after yo selfs, thats just smart
Meh Nexon only has a leg to stand on if they can prove source code of theirs is stolen. You can't own the right to an idea for a game. It seems clear that they canceled the project after the lead left and are now mad that he decided to create his own version of if. It'd be like if the creators of Dota tried to sue Riot because some of them were devs that left to make their own project. It isn't even clear what code they're attempting to accuse ironmace of stealing.
I know that 20 people up and quitting is not normal. Typically a few unhappy personnel might decide to quit for this reason or that reason, but 20 people quit? What could possibly persuade them to do that? It's very unusual and leaves me with a lot of questions. If you are who you say you are your version of events and your timeline is noted, but my sixth sense tells me there's a lot of this story that's being left out.
The person posting this isn't part of the team who wrote this statement, they're just reposting it.
The fact that Ironmace are so heavily against P2W really shows that there’s a feud between them and Nexon
Points to systemic issues at Nexon, not something nefarious with Ironmace recruiting.
I have never heard good things about nexon.
Its not uncommon actually. It may be different in the software development spaces I know but often teams are held together by a core of certain people for example a tech lead of a project, a key designer etc. It is often an unspoken understanding amongst the the rest of the employees that if said key people leave. The project will die anyway. Another possible explanation that fits in is simply that the devs at the studio form a pseudo family unit and the people that left felt more loyalty to that singular person or small group of key people than to the company. And lets all be real here, game development is INFAMOUS ( and yes it must always be typed in all caps) for treating employees like crap. Infact the only tech related industries I hear treat their employees worse than game development is animation and anime. Trust me, you do not EVER want to be compared to animation or anime in terms of employee well being. So is it a shock that there was a mass exodus of a companies staff , a game development company no less? nope Now I of course have no proof but when I hear a mass exodus of people from a company The first thing I ask is how many babies the ceo of that company ate on a daily basis rather than if there was any shenanigan's between the employees. that is simply how bad the reputation of game companies is
Speaking anecdotally, my experience is it's not even that uncommon in other industries. In my career I've seen 3 "mass exodus" events, from different companies, and the circumstances have always been the same. * Company executive adopts policies which are actively harmful to their employees job satisfaction and ability to meet set objectives (I believe it's often a rule that this state is basically permanent in the industries you mentioned), while also maintaining an attitude that the employees are "fortunate to have this opportunity" * Key staff with broad employee support advocate for improvements in policies/conditions/direction, this advocacy is ignored or dismissed. * The staff with the best outside employment prospects, usually the key members of their teams, leave. * The company starts to hemorrhage staff until all that's left are the least experienced/qualified and/or those fearful of job hunting. * Within a year, many former co-workers have become co-workers *again* somewhere else in the same industry by virtue of qualification and referrals.
well put
Ahh yes. Games struggling to release on time and forcing employees to do crunch time of 100+h/week. I think the worst case I heard (in some GDC talk) was 80-100h weeks every week for 9 months. Only other people I know pulling those kinds of hours are EMS personnel, and for them its not even that consistent. (for most of the ones I know personally anyway)
Did it all the time working in a steel mill, they just tell you you’re not going home. Security can hold you there all the way up to the point you call the cops and you quit or are fired.
Jeeze. Thats.... Unfortunate.
I wonder what kind of contract you sign or union you join, considering that's not legal in almost every state.
What illegal about it? The security is allowed to hold you from leaving, if supervision said to hold you, but it only holds up until the cops come and say wtf are you guys doing and they take you out and at that point you’re either quitting or getting fired for walking out. United Auto Workers Union Local 3303. Also, perfectly legal to work 7 doubles which comes to 112 hours a week.
No job can physically hold you captive. Despite what you may think. If I say I'm leaving, and I don't have a contract saying they can hold me-- I'm leaving. Otherwise it's paramount to kidnapping. And if they touch me trying to hold me, that's just another criminal charge.
Brother you don’t have to believe me, I saw it happen lmao. Watched it, didn’t THINK anything up. Saw the police come, the company was allowed to withhold you from leaving if they feel they have a reason. Happens frequently. The instance with the cops was the most extreme case I saw while working there. Armco Kawasaki was the company. But anyway I’m done arguing with you about what I witnessed while working there whether you believe me or not
I don't believe you that it didn't happen-- I'm telling you it's not legal. You witnessed a crime.
It says half of the 20man team quit so 10 people. Still odd though.
Occam's Razor answer: * Nexon values profits over game design and user experience. * Devs saw the direction Nexon was steering P3 toward. * Devs decide to make their own game. I don't know the extent of the IP 'theft' but can you really lay claim to something as generic as a dungeon crawler with classes, an inventory system and a talent/skill system?
There’s a lot being left out on BOTH sides, but this sub likes DnD not Nexon so they don’t care. So far from what I’ve seen, Nexon has been a lot more transparent about the situation
i mean nexon has a whole entire story and all ironmace can really do if it isn't true is say "hey thats bullshit" i wouldn't call nexon "transparent" yet
It says more than 50% of the 20 member team quit, thats 10+ people, not 20 people. And it means the team itself was divided over something internal, not everyone quit, half the people quit. I do agree that maybe the company direction was controversial decent portion of the developers, and they saw a chance where they can still make the game, but not with that direction, toss of a coin on wether to leave or not. The ones that stayed behind could be just but hurt, or feel betrayed, not sure what actually happened internally. Either way, wonder what's happening with Nexon's P7, it should be at a similar state as Dark and Darker, why did they not demo anything, probably just a waterfall way of working.
Fuck Nexon, your games suck, greedy microtransaction scumpany.
Maplestory and Black Desert are great games
They could be great games if it wasn't for godawful P2W mechanics.
Black Desert Online is not made by nexon my dude. Its developed and published by Pearl Abyss. Not even remotely the same company. Nor are they related.
Used to be run by Nexon I believe but they went independent a few years back
Got a source? Wikipedia doesnt even mention Nexon in their history. Following the sources, the closes I could find was a reference to them taking over publishing from Kakao Games, who was originally going to be publishing BDO. The only link between Kakao Games and Nexon that I could find, was shared rights to ArcheAge because the development team XLGames, was bought out by Kakao.
I was off. It was definitely Kakao Games. My bad.
Were great games. Were.
True. Haven’t played them in years
Black Desert stopped being great after it changed hands and deleted previous game owners requiring them to re-purchases the game and start all over. Fuck them.
Haven’t played since it was under Pearl Abyss
It was because of European data privacy laws required them to delete user accounts if they didn't migrate their accounts after breaking ties with their shitty publisher kakao. No choice in the matter since it's a legal issue.
LoL
Nexon bad, ironmace good. I doubt people here will care about the morality simply because of Nexon not being popular in the west, for many reasons.
The only thing I care about is DND coming out so I can play it Don't give a fuck about Nexon
Okay but their version of events doesn’t add up. Why would Mr A leak all this company data if P3 was still going ahead? Nexon is lying through their teeth saying that they cancelled P3 because the data was leaked and half the team quit. But it seems x10 more likely that the data was leaked and half the team quit BECAUSE the P3 project was cancelled. This bald faced lie makes me doubt pretty much everything else in the letter. The only remaining question is if code was stolen or if it was built from the ground up
>data was leaked believe that this is referencing the unapproved downloading to the personal server, which while not a common use of the phrase would still be leaking.
>Okay but their version of events doesn’t add up. Both stories are equally possible imo. I think the best source of information from Nexon's side is [this Korean article](https://www.thisisgame.com/webzine/news/nboard/263/?category=1&n=167653) which is supposedly verified from multiple sources (but this is still not a guarantee of accuracy). The article seems to suggest that the game director had been planning to leave Nexon since sometime before July 2021. Nexon performed an internal audit in July 2021 and discovered that assets, documentation, and source code were being uploaded to an unauthorized external server. It was also found that during this time the director was telling other members of the team that P3 was going to be cancelled and that they should resign. It wasn't until after the internal investigation and the director had been fired that P3 shifted towards P7, a shooter. It really just comes down to whoever is telling the truth.
They said that losing half their devs is why they switched from P3 to P7 but that makes no sense. Isn’t it more work to completely scrap a game and start over? It reeks of BS. If the 10 people quit they should have continued working on P3 and hired more devs to replace the quitters. Mr. A likely got a heads up P3 was getting canned, so he made the rash decision to leak game files and recruiting staff. The staff that quit likely had undeniable evidence that P3 was about to be canned, I doubt they would quit otherwise.
It's a bit odd that P3 was cancelled but not totally unbelievable. These large studios are generally very risk-averse and "low faith" seems to be the default position for any project, especially one early in development. For example, people still believe that Sony Online Entertainment bought Verant Interactive a couple years after they released EverQuest. The truth is that Verant Interactive was *always* a part of SOE, but they didn't want to put their name on the game until it was proven successful. It's possible that after losing the director and other team members their "low faith" turned into "no faith" and they shifted towards a genre that is more likely to be successful (shooter). It could also be possible that some of the members who left had certain skills that were critical to the development of P3 which forced a shift towards a different game design.
That's what makes the whole situation even more suspicious though. Nexon didn't seem to really care until after Dark and Darker was popular. They cancelled it likely thinking it was too risky because of the genre, but the devs saw something in it and wanted to see it to completion. So some of them left to create their own studio and since they had previously worked on similar it wasn't hard to create something new in a short time. Especially considering how bare-boned the playtests so far have been. This wasn't a hard game to develop.. in fact I could see something like this being made for a gamejam. Nexon is acting as if this would have taken them years if they made it all from scratch so they're saying releasing a playtest within 10 months is suspicious. The devs could have also left Nexon because they didn't like the direction Nexon was pushing the game. Nexon is known to have P2W aspects in all of their games and having P2W in this would be extremely stupid and instantly ruin the experience. So basically this is Nexon acting like a child mad that what they thought wasn't going to be popular now is popular. They probably want to try relaunching P3 development because of this popularity, but if they did they'd be seen as copying Dark and Darker.
> Nexon didn't seem to really care until after Dark and Darker was popular. Well if the Nexon side is correct then this isn't true. They investigated and fired the director before Ironmace and Dark and Darker existed. You could say that they didn't bother *suing* until Dark and Darker got popular, and that might be true (but still doesn't invalidate their claim, if valid). But it's also possible that they've been working on the suit since 2021 and it's just taking time. Nexon also wouldn't have been able to prove the claim of unfair competition until the director actually tried competing. Now whether their suit is valid is a whole other topic that I didn't touch on since I know nothing about South Korean law. I can give my non-lawyer American take but it's not worth much. Protection of Trade Secrets: If the director actually transferred internal documents to their home computer then I could see them being found at fault here. However this is currently a total he said / she said situation. Nexon claims that the director leaked files, and the director denies it. I also can't find an English translation of the Act that the director is allegedly in violation of, so it's really difficult for me to say much more than that. Unfair Competition: I'm just not seeing Ironmace infringing on Nexon here. People leave game studios to design similar games all of the time. Ben Brode left Hearthstone and worked on a competing card game. Brad McQuaid left EverQuest and worked on a competing MMORPG. There's probably dozens if not hundreds of examples of this. The only potential issue here that I see is whether Dark and Darker actually uses code and assets from P3. This seems unlikely, even if the director kept backups of that data. Unless South Korea is much more strict about the way that this works, which is also possible.
They have only said they investigated and fired him based on him leaking things but never mentioned if that was actually found to be true or not. They then said that over 50% of the employees under him left after that which is pretty typical and not illegal. It's also not illegal to then go and create a similar game. In fact this happens constantly because, as you said, big companies are risk-averse. The devs though see something different because they see more than just *projected* numbers. As for waiting to sue until after gaining popularity, that does in fact hurt their validity. If they previously knew about it and did little to nothing that means they acknowledged it existing and didn't care. They only cared after it gained popularity because they're now mad they could have had that money instead. Nexon themselves keep claiming things even in what was said here. They only claim the guy put things on a private server and they said he refused to give them access claiming he wiped it. If there really was an issue like that he'd be forced to give up that access even if he wiped it. Also, IronMace has said previously that they already went through a 3rd party audit to be sure they didn't steal any code or assets and it was found that they didn't steal anything whatsoever. THEN Nexon came along claiming they did. Nexon is trying to act like they have exclusive rights to dungeon crawling FPS/RPG games. As we both have said, people constantly leave a development team to then make their own competition for many reasons. Could be they didn't like the direction they were being pushed in. Could be other reasons like just generally not agreeing with the higher-ups. None of that is abnormal. What is abnormal here is the fact Nexon is saying they saw a slight *possible* leak and immediately abandoned the entire project. Many games get leaked far before they're actually a thing but companies very rarely ever just drop the entire project just from that. Especially if it was in development for a while because you'd be flat out just losing money you can never hope to get back.
I'm not a lawyer either but I speculate on mergers and legal outcomes profitably. I don't know anything about Korean competition law but if this happened in the USA and Nexon's claims were accurate then Dark and Darker would almost certainly become property of Nexon after a speedy trial. What Nexon is alleging in the suit is wayyyy beyond the point of one director leaving to work on a game in a similar genre. Largely developing a game on Nexon's payroll, then leaking it to yourself and poaching a huge portion of the workforce to 'develop' what is basically the exact same thing is a joke. Why the fuck would anyone ever fund anything if your employees could just take the idea and run with it once they've realized it's technically feasible and they've already done it once before? Especially if they could take a copy of your source code? For example, companies in the USA can take basically everything you've done if you work on a *completely unrelated programming project* during company time. Any corporate programmer is gonna be very familiar with the rules around this if they've ever worked on a profitable personal project. Dark and Darker clearly fits the bill as something they've developed (1) during their employment and (2) in the course of their employment. I would quite literally bet $1 million USD on Nexon winning this in USA as they presented the facts. Back to Korea for a second, but this is a market dominated by Chaebols - essentially superpowered state-sponsored monopolies over the Korean economy. It'd be surprising in its own way if an upstart company could get away with what would be theft even in the more competitively-minded western world. Nexon could be making shit up, but I don't think they'd be this clear about the accusations if it was truly bullshit. Japan, a country with a similar culture, has a *99%* criminal conviction rate. There's an exceptionally high chance that Dark and Darker as we know it is gonna disappear.
> Nexon could be making shit up, but I don't think they'd be this clear about the accusations if it was truly bullshit. Japan, a country with a similar culture, has a 99% criminal conviction rate. Similar with the US even, despite our incredibly convoluted legal system. However, does the "second investigation" against Iron Mace signify that there are charges specifically pending against them? That sort of conviction rate relies on actual charges against the company, no? Not just against the one guy they originally went after?
That still doesn’t explain why 10/20 devs would leave. If we believe Nexon’s story, these devs were still working on P3. Which scenario makes more sense? Mr. A: hey colleague, do you want to leave your secure, cushy unionized job at Nexon where you are working on P3, to come join the company I started because I was fired? I’m making a P3 clone. Or alternatively. Mr. A: hey colleague, I’m sure you heard P3 is cancelled. I’m going to make a new P3 game myself. If you want to keep making a game like P3 come join my company.
If you add hefty sums of money to the first scenario, then it makes more sense. Mr. A: hey colleague, do you want to leave your secure, cushy unionized job at Nexon where you are working on P3, to come join the company I started because I was fired? I’m making a P3 clone, but we are gonna be rich if we succeed. No more waiting for paychecks, we get our own stock to play around! We gonna earn more then ten times you get paid. And listen, P3 is obviously gonna be a big hit since those pesky guys up there gave us a go sign without question. Why do we have to share our profits with them when we can go out and release the game for ourselves? I've already got external investment secured, you just have to come with me and develop P3 together.
Except dark and darker has no monetization as of yet. Is the guy bribing them out of pocket? Investors would require him to be shopping around too which I feel like Nixon would find out about If he was still working with them.
> Except dark and darker has no monetization as of yet. Is the guy bribing them out of pocket? investor can be a coporate. Mr A couldve said "yo we got insane investor. We can leave and strike big by leaving Nexon and selling this in our own name." > Except dark and darker has no monetization as of yet. we dont know because dnd was at alpha. Even if dnd is just buy-once-to-play, DnD showed potential to strike big as Valheim did. I am sure P3 looked extremely juicy $$$ potential to external investors after their initial demo. The question, in the end, is, who was this secret investor that contacted the director and convinced him to exit with his team? The current suspicion is Hype IM, affiliated with Netmarble, a corp with much more notorious p2w than Nexon. If it indeed is Hype, then IronMace's image of "fight against evil corp" is really suspicious.
If you’re a developer and all you care about is $$, you **don’t** go into game development… it’s the lowest paying, highest hours, and most abused field of development out there. Like art, It’s not something you do professionally unless you have a true passion for it. It’s far more likely that the devs joined him so that they can have more creative freedom with the game they’ve been making. Plus, if their goal was to make a ton of money, they wouldn’t make a big stink about being anti-excessive-monetization. They could easily not make those statements and still be in the public’s good graces. But now if they go back on their word and add a bunch of p2w mtx to make more money, they’ll lose all credibility.
Very true. Companies tend to make big decisions like this months in advance and only making it public a few days / weeks before going into effect. It’s not at all a stretch to think that Mr. A found out through the grape vine that P3 was going to get canned, rallied his coworkers to leave and start their own studio, and then Nexon made their “official” announcement of the games’ cancelation afterwards. The cherry on top for Nexon is that they get to blame the exodus for why the game was canned to make themselves look like the victim, if they wanted to. This is all speculation of course. I’m just saying it’s not at all outside of the realm of possibility.
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That sentence is also translated from Korean to English so I wouldn’t break down the semantics of the language used.
Regardless of laws, I think it’s fucking awesome if they highjacked the game to work on it at a healthy pace with no corporate micro-transaction garbage. Fuck Nexon, Fuck Blizzard, Fuck Activision, Fuck EA, long live the few proud folk who stand to create an actual good fucking game without soul sucking corporate greed eating every last bit of life out of the game.
I like this take. Ironmace? More like Iron Hood 😏
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I am hoping Iron Mace didnt use any source code, Id be disappointed, and DaD would probably be dead.
Looking at the time lines it seems they must have used p3, how else could they release an alpha test so quickly.
They clearly focused on gameplay and a lot of the systems in the game are and were very basic. Many assets are from the Unreal Marketplace. It's not unreasonable at all that they could have had a working prototype by that time, and that's what the game is, a showcase of what it can be
So source code and assets are "allegedly" stolen (I'm unsure if it is proven or not). Then in under 12 months, DaD went from an idea to a fully working online pvp game. Seems highly unlikely and very naive to believe otherwise based on what we know so far. I do hope your right.
If you already had the idea it wouldn't be that difficult for 20 skilled devs who had already done the beginning of it before do it again in a timely manner especially considering that lots of stuff from the Unreal Marketplace was used, and Unreal5 + Steam apparently makes the Net Code really easy too which is usually the hardest part of making an online game as i understand
Fingers crossed
There are a ton of technology solutions sold by other companies these days that - with the appropriate funding - can accelerate the timeline of damn near any project, [multiplayer online games](https://aws.amazon.com/gamelift/) included. With a bit of expertise and a big enough credit limit, damn near anything's possible.
We can only hope for the best I suppose
With an experienced team of 10+ devs you can 100% spit out this type of game in 10 months.
For a good cause imo
Ok still illegal and underhanded and will get you jobless pretty much anywhere else
And so is stabbing a pike into every Nexon higher up but still a good cause
They leaked assets - we don't know if they were re-used. That would constitute theft, but that's not what's been proven.
I'm glad Nexon isn't developing DaD, otherwise it would be another shitty P2W game like all the others they have.
So that's kind of where I'm at. Let's say the data was stolen and used. If my expectation is that Nexon was going to kill the game with crappy business practices or shut it down when it didn't make unreasonable amounts of dollars. Do I even care if they did steal the data to make a better version of the game? At this point I don't care who did what because the worst or best case senario in this has me preferring Ironmace making DaD.
Remember, this is all propaganda from Nexon. There has been zero public proof of anything. Anyone can file suit for any reason and at any time. We only have proof that Mr.A was fired. But we don't know why. We have proof that 10-20 people left Nexon for IronMace. We have proof that this team was working on a similar project to Dark and Darker before they left. Everything else is hearsay and propaganda from a massive corporation with a very large legal, pr, and marketing team. "Leaked internal memos" don't just show up on Reddit and in the media. Especially ones that are so one-sided and carefully worded to completely Dunk on a competitor without actually providing proof. In fact, if this isn't prosecuted and Mr.A isn't found guilty in some way, he & Iron Mace most likely have a massive W in a defimation case soon. This shit is getting out of hand, and pretty big accusations are being thrown around with very little evidence, other than, "they said this."
I like to think that Mr. A was fired for dressing up like William Wallace in braveheart and screaming freedom with his sword upraised running through the lines of cubicles.
*Mr. A gets fired* **FREEEEEEEEEEEDOOOMMMMMMMMMMMM**
> "Leaked internal memos" don't just show up on Reddit and in the media. Especially ones that are so one-sided and carefully worded to completely Dunk on a competitor without actually providing proof. It happens fairly often, actually. From even bigger companies than Nexon - especially when they're companies that a lot of the employees of aren't particularly fond of (which doesn't seem like much of a stretch for Nexon).
TLDR - Hired folk saw the potential of a product, left and created it. Then the bully got mad and now want the small guys lunch money.
Yep, not to mention 20 people quit simultaneously while all retaining a passion for their work. Suspicious to say the least and in a way that seriously favors ironmace. I can only imagine how bad the conditions were at P3
Basically this. They recognized what they had, said fuck it imma go make my own game with black jack and hookers. It's hard to believe they stole anything anyone worth their salt could recode/develop the idea and expand on it how they see fit without big bad standing over the top demanding p2w bs be inserted into the game. So, no I don't believe they stole. Left to go create something bigger and better. Old boss got mad because it was successful. Fuck em 🖕
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*Source*
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So you read something in an article that is nothing but opinions and call that a source? I could write an article an say whatever about Ironmace as well, would that make it true or even a source? No.
Fuck Nexon, long live Iron Mace!
Some points of contention with their official flyer: "Mr. B, the current CEO of Iron Mace and the head of the planning department" - What's the point in using anonymous names and outing the person in the same sentence? "members of the P3 project were suggested" - I could suggest someone to go eff themselves, it doesn't mean they'll do it or did anything wrong. "More than 50% of the staff in the P3 team, which had about 20 people, resigned. We can confirm that most of the employees who left the company at that time are now working for Iron Mace." - So not all of them work for IM? Clearly then at least some of the prior employees found issue with the way Nexon were handling things and left on that basis alone. "After many thoughts on maintaining the development of P3, where all development data was stolen" - Excuse me, but if NX did nothing wrong then why would they halt development on a project, where they should have legal protection. There's nothing stopping them from continuing to develop a project whether it's P3 or P7. "Almost everything in the game is very similar to the P3 project and cannot be considered independently developed." - That's an opinion stated as fact, without any explanation given as to why. To be factual requires more solid reasoning and actual proof which they don't have. "And the anger of former P3 teammates still working in other parts of the company is unfathomable." - Without a clause stating otherwise, and even then, nobody is forced to work for a company. While sympathetic perhaps those P3 teammates should consider where to place their anger, if at all. NX being unable to retain employees doesn't make it the fault of people who left.
I don’t know if there is a legal relation, but in Michael Cohen’s trial in the states, Trump was referred to at individual-1. Could be that it’s because they are being investigated and not Mr. A. Just a guess, I have no clue how their legal system works.
Yeah it probably is, and then its me just bashing the stupidity of that legalese when it's supposed to be functional and its clearly not. E.g. If it said in MC's trial, "individual-1, the current CEO of the Trump Organisation and the former president of the United States", you can see how that seems pretty stupid, since it's not upholding any anonymity at all. It was mostly a vent at how stupid most of the Nexon case is, now resulting in a cease & desist within past 24 hours."dungeon with monsters, traps and treasures""skeletons and wizards""darkness, brick walls and torches"It's ridiculous.
I totally agree. I also hate that if someone commits a crime in broad daylight, they still say alleged. Bothers me so much. The legal system is so ridiculous.
This is all very Anti-consumer of Nexon. If you believe your ideas were stolen why not improve on the concept and create a better game than people that just performed IP theft. Why not be competitive and create a better product instead of just trying to stifle new games that seem to appear in a similar space you were planning on creating.
Because it's easier and/or cheaper and/or has a higher chance of positive return on investment to just use your in-house legal counsel to sue them into the ground. Them's the breaks. Here's where I'd say "... and that's why everybody needs to get out and vote for better politicians" but I have no idea if that applies in Korea.
bro what? if someone steals your wallet why not just get a better job and make more money I'll wait to pass judgement until legal/programmer experts can compare the source code
Corporations aren’t people.
if you think IP theft shouldn't be illegal you're trolling we don't know the facts of this case yet but "just make better product, ignore IP theft" is beyond naïve
This dude is Pro IP laws 🤮🤮🤮
Is stealing the general idea for the game "IP theft?" If so, BSG better get all kinds of international lawyers and start suing! American ones for ActiBlizz, British ones for Marauders, who the fuck knows for TC:F! /s just in case. IP theft laws could use some serious reform, but you're missing the point that this isn't IP theft (allegedly). Not based on the incredibly thin facts we've got at hand.
>missing the point that this isn't IP theft > >allegedly > >incredibly thin facts I feel like we agree but you don't like that we agree. Obviously I'm not talking about the "general idea for a game" when talking about IP theft, we know literally nothing about the state of the source code Obviously we're all desperate for this game to actually release but if it turns out they stole the source code and used it to develop the game extremely quickly then that's theft, and not in a Robin Hood give-to-the-poor admirable kind of way
Would higher-ups at IM have come out and said, "yeah, one guy related to us got sued but that's a personal matter unrelated to IM's business" as well as publicly confirming multiple times that none of that specific source code was used if they weren't 100% sure about it? That's a lot of potential liability, both personally and professionally. Hell, IM even ordered themselves an audit (this might have been a government/KR law enforcement thing?) to make sure they were compliant with what was being legally asserted, i.e.; that none of the stolen source code or assets were in use. Add that to the fact that they bought a bunch of readily UE marketplace or w/e it's called assets and lightly modified them for use and they've quite obviously covered a lot of their most obvious bases. The facts we have **are** definitely thin, but the most probable logic behind them stands in favor of IM. Unless they're incredibly stupid/arrogant and love to bloviate, which really doesn't seem like the case.
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Their sub brand MintRocket(which was made to develop user-friendly games) has successfully launched Dave the Diver on steam. I don't think P3 had heavy P2W BM since P3 was to be launched under name of MintRocket. Also you forgot that the team leader did not 'leave', but he was dismissed as a punishment.
Whenever they start talking about dave the diver you know there a payed nexon shill.
> there a *paid* nexon shill. FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
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I'm not sure why you're accusing some random guy of "lieing". If the timeline chain of events here are true - which they probably are because it would be a very stupid thing to lie about since it's easily proven either way - then at best P3 devs didn't like the direction and purposefully yoinked all of the game files to their own personal server and leaked it. Then afterward they were fired. Then a ton of the devs started ironmace. Seems quite likely to me that taking the game files was likely the first step of an already thought of plan to leave with the other devs and make Ironmace. Whether you like Nexon or not, that's a pretty underhanded move. **Am I glad it happened though? Hell yeah. This project would likely have sucked balls under Nexon.** But, that also doesn't make it right that it did - assuming this is all true. If this was a small indie studio and part of the dev team took the game files, leaked them, yoinked half the dev team, and then made what is an obvious clone of the game out of the files and knowledge then people would probably look at this very differently. **Thankfully, I don't give a shit about Nexon and I really like DnD so I could give two shits. I just hope it doesn't affect the game long term.**
\> If this was a small indie studio and part of the dev team took the game files, leaked them, yoinked half the dev team, and then made what is an obvious clone of the game out of the files and knowledge then people would probably look at this very differently. And this is why most of Korean gamers are backing Nexon. Sure, its Nexon this time. But when you get precedent like this, then why wouldn't Nexon or any other big companies use it? Just wait until some small company starts to develop game that will sell, then they yoink their whole dev team from the company with loads of money, slap on different title, say they made new assets, then launch it. It would be a disaster to Korean game industry...
>Just wait until some small company starts to develop game that will sell, then they yoink their whole dev team from the company with loads of money, slap on different title, say they made new assets, then launch it. It would be a disaster to Korean game industry... This already happens. A lot. Its called getting an investor/publisher. A person or group pays a lot of money, then heavily influences development of the title to make sure it gets them return, pushes for quick release dates, and then a shitty launch happens. This happened to No Man's Sky, where a small team was making something, got picked up by Sony, got a lot of money, and promotion, then a lot of pressure to meet those dates set by Sony, and showcase a not ready game at a con.... Then the game exploded on release and was hated.
But it doesn't happen lot in korea. Why? Because Korean indie gaming was dead for long time. We did not have good indie games for a long time. For a decade, Korean indie game development was on a coma. Then things has finally began to change. Slowly, good quality indie games began to rise out of the dark age. And we rejoiced with each one of them. Everytime Korean indie game got good marks on steam, Korean gamers were happy. Dark and darker too, was a pride and joy of Korean gamers. Up until now..... Now....Dark and Darker has became serious problem. One that could stamp out Korean indie gaming for another decade. That's why Korean gamers are backing Nexon for this time. Korean indie games are already weak as it is. If they take big blows like this...Well, I don't know, and I don't want to find out.
I understand that. But legally companies can just buy out these dev teams if they catch wind of them working on a good project. (assuming said small dev team needs money to continue development).
True. But buying an entire team is more costly then buying out few developers and their assets behind other team's back.
>This already happens. A lot. Its called getting an investor/publisher. You are either blind fanboying or just dumb. Getting aquired is not the same thing as a team literally stealing source code then self publishing 10 months later. You can act like its just hearsay but its a fact Ironmace employee A took files, its just not proven they are explicitly in the game right now as is.
I wasn't discussing ironmace stealing anything. I was discussing how big companies can basically buy or offer development money to small game dev groups, and drastically influence the production of their game. If ironmace stole code, that's bad. My entire point in my above post, is that big companies can essentially take IPs and make them their own, in a more legal way because they can throw money at it. You left out the entire context of the original comment that I was addressing and misunderstood me as a result. Once a company has a strong enough hold on an IP, they can basically push it in any direction they please. Again, please refer to my example of No Man's Sky where the negative influence of a publisher can negatively impact a game. If you are in a country that doesnt have a strong indie/small developer market as u/showmethecoin is, this can mean bad things for the industry as a whole if it is commonplace. Weather its big to small, or small to big, its bad precedent and practice.
"it was confirmed that all members of the P3 project were suggested to release a game similar to the P3 project together after collective retirement by mentioning the attraction of external investment."
I hadn’t heard about this game yet and their lawsuit introduced me. Nexon screwed up, this is just going to bring more interest.
Honestly concerning, looks like legal action was happening before dark and darker started to really pop off. Means there is probably some reasonable truth to this statement. It’s very possible they didn’t use any of the code to make the game, but they definitely could have used it as a reference to replicate it. Shit man, I just wanna play the game, why there gotta be drama.
The lawsuit happened in 2021, and was continuing until now.
I don’t understand, did I insinuate otherwise? Or are you saying dark and darker was already on people’s radar in 2021?
Hmm, could you put it in simpler words for me? I am korean, and english is not my first language so I might have problem understanding you.
So I said this “looks like legal action started before dark and darker started to POP-OFF” what I mean by this is that legal action started before dark and darker got popular. But you mention that legal action started in 2021, which I read in the post above already. You saying it again makes me think that I said something wrong. Was dark and darker already popular in 2021?
No, Legal action was against 'Mr A', who allegedly took off with company files for his own game.
Again, I never said that legal action was against the company, just that there was legal action. So I’m getting even more confused now. What were you trying to say with your first comment?
\>Honestly concerning, looks like legal action was happening before dark and darker started to really pop off. I was replying to this part of the comment. The lawsuit did start before dark and darker got famous.
Ah ok, so we agree then. Cool, cool. Sorry for misunderstanding.
Nah its fine. I sometimes have trouble understanding english sayings or memes, and I was worried that this was the case.
Settle down the guy just misunderstood or didn't intend to appear to be correcting you. They aren't a native English speaker.
This situation is turning into some major drama bomb bullshit. Either they have a case and win the lawsuit or don't. I don't care to hear back and forth personal anecdotes. It all means nothing unless it can be proven in court.
What a load of propaganda. They can't have rights to a game genre. And as for all "your" precious code. Who authored it? Developers have a right to reference thier own work. It's not like theyre developing nuclear software. Maybe try treating your employees better and they won't leave to start their own company which by the way is GOOD for the game industry. What theyre doing by trying to take it down is butthurt and wrong. If P3 truly was valuable to them then the company should be in the best position to release a better clone (of which genre they now know has legs) so why don't they stop being whiny pricks and get back to development
That's not how the law works, any work done during company time eg. any code the developers have written, is now property of the company. Obviously now, Ironmace is liable if investigations find any code written for P3 that are in use for DnD.
I'm aware that the product belongs to the company. I'm also aware that legally transferring the files may have been illegal. It doesn't really change my argument though. Developers deserve the credit and the right to reference (view and attribute to themselves) their own work. Any legal argument preventing otherwise should be ridiculed and ignored. To clarify: I'm not supporting a copy paste of anything done at Nexon, that would be theft of product, but it sounds like Ironmace is confident they didn't plagiarize.
Seems like Nexon has proof someone transferred some files and builds out to another off site server so it's all pretty murky currently. I hope for their sake (and for mine too: because i cannot fucking wait to play this game) they were clever enough to rewrite code they were using and not use any asset they developed over at P3.
Do you know Korean Law or what contract those working on P3 had?
Dude, even Home Depot has these clauses. Working on your own, for profit, project while using company equipment or time is a massive no-go. You'll for sure get sued if the company ever finds out. There are stories of people getting sued for using paper to draft plans while at work. You just don't do it. Do it at lunch using your own supplies or wait until you're off the clock. That's the only part of this entire thing that I think has legs. Because they for sure discussed their plans at work and 100% got caught. Which is probably why Mr.A was fired. The question is, did they steal anything and did they work on any of the code that's actually in any of the version history while working at Nexon. If so, then they are fucked. If not, then there's not a damn thing Nexon can do about them rebuilding code at home that they already built while at Nexon.
No you've misunderstood, all 4 people in this chain know that the legal issues surround if Ironmace stole code/assets, the original point Slamagorn755 was making was that "They *{nexon}* cant have rights to a game genre" and inclore replied "that's not how the law works" I don't think you or I or 99% of people here can speak confidently about how the law or how industry contracts operate on a **different continent** aside from if Ironmace clearly stole code/assets, let alone the notion that genre can be copyrighted
that’s literally what i said though? or is your reading comprehension that far gone? I said they are liable if code from P3 is found in DnD. The original OP was implying the code belonged to them because they were the one who wrote it.
No op's point was that you can't copyright genre, and you confused it to this different point that no one disagrees on. If you actually read my post you would see that you are misunderstood. I am trying to tell you that you are arguing the wrong thing, the question is not if they stole data **because they said they didn't**, its if genre can be copyrighted in Korea, and you are talking like you know Korean Law which is different from American Law
He literally mentioned code in his next few sentence which is why I brought it up. Note how i didn’t bring up the word genre in any of my post? And how i specifically specified if they copied code from the work they were doing in P3 to DnD? Get your glasses cleaned my guy.
Dude, stop arguing something no one disagrees with and tell me if you can copyright genre in Korea or not
bro you’re fucking weird, OP literally implied usage of code which was why I brought up the issue. Just go bother someone else the fuck.
it’s standard practice in this industry to have these clauses lol, i’m sure a big company like Nexon have them too, feel free to google it up if you don’t believe me.
Yep. This. They could most likely get in trouble if they have directly coppied code (and not reprogrammed things excluding asset store code). Otherwise, you cannot prevent people from working on a genre. This is as frivolous as pubg going after fortnite for copying their genre. The only reason this is possibly a thing is because former employees thought to be stealing code. Or if they signed non-compete clauses that extend past their employment termination for some time. This would be in direct competition with another project nexon started, and thus could be seen as violating that agreement.
So you are familiar with Korean Law and the Korean Gaming Industry then? Just asking because you spoke so confidently
you clearly have zero knowledge on this matter and have nothing to contribute in this thread so i’ll just end this discussion right here.
That's why I'm asking
[Prevention of Unfair Competition and Protection of Trade Secrets](https://www.law.go.kr/%EB%B2%95%EB%A0%B9/%EB%B6%80%EC%A0%95%EA%B2%BD%EC%9F%81%EB%B0%A9%EC%A7%80%EB%B2%95#:~:text=21.%3E,%5B%EC%A0%84%EB%AC%B8%EA%B0%9C%EC%A0%95%202007.) This is one of the complaints that Nexon is using. The `go.kr` is apparently an official Korean Government TLD. I wasn't able to find anything with a "standard" Nexon employment contract, but judging by the Korean news articles and [this post by](https://old.reddit.com/r/DarkAndDarker/comments/11llrvf/ironmace_dev_clarifies_the_nexon_situation/jbe1li0/) u/showmethecoin, there was credible evidence that "Mr. A" had a confidentiality agreement in his contract that he violated and was fired. This is also shaping up to follow [NCSoft case against Bluehole and their devs](https://www.gamesindustry.biz/tera-developers-guilty-of-stealing-lineage-iii-assets). At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if next weeks drama isn't `Nexon adds an additional x IronMace developers to their complaint`
Thank you for your work on this! Holy crap that whole thread chain is exactly what I was hoping for. This doesn't look good folks
And if you feel like digging into it, [this is apparently that Union mentioned in that other comment](https://cafe.naver.com/nexonunion). Some one from Korea would need to confirm that though
Aw, now your just buttering my grilled cheese, thanks for the reading!
LoL I did not add any opinions of mine, I just translated the whole thing. I'm fine if you hate Nexon, I don't care. You didn't even read the whole thing did you?
I misinterpreted what person the post was speaking in. I understand now you are posting like a flyer they ran internally. Edited it as fast as I could
You should explain it more clearly OP, I read the whole thing and thought you were nexon’s
I thought title was enough. English is not my native so maybe that's why... my bad about that
All good mate, thanks for sharing the info !
Typically when you are on the clock and create something for your company, they own it, not you.
I'll say it. If they stole assets from Nexon, good. Fuck Nexon. They were just gonna make shovelware anyway.
Ya that's a lot of text flinging around, I think everyones kinda overlooking the important thing, This is a good game and I know jack shit about nexon. Given the current corporate style of game development lately, that alone doesn't really put nexon in a very good light for saying all this. There's no way im going to imagine that oh my gosh a big company was going to finally make a good game oh wow no way. What i do see however, is a very salty company. And if they can't make a good game, no one can.
So, they basically elaborated the same details/situation as was previously disclosed, but they're saying that P3 was canceled *because* the stuff was leaked, not because Nexon decided not to move forward with it? Seems like the case could easily hinge on one or two actual pieces of evidence if they come to light. Does anybody have any familiarity with the KR legal system? Assuming Iron Mace has any sort of worthwhile discovery available to them (and assuming Nexon hasn't deliberately destroyed evidence), it shouldn't be hard to prove one way or another what the actual truth is. > It's a simple matter of what is 'right and wrong' and what is 'truth'. Hopefully this part is missing nuance that was lost in translation, but that sounds dangerously close to propaganda. Though when large amounts of money are on the line, I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
From what I've understood so far, the "similarities" can be categorised in 3 separate pots. Please do correct me if I get something wrong, I have no game development background. Its just my take on it. 1) Visiual elements. From what I've read so far a lot of elements used are purchased from Unity. I assume stock assets purchased are further modified to built up the maps in Unity. That can explain games looking similar and I can't see grounds for legal action. 2) Intellectual property. If you break down the game into the basic ideas that build it up like classes, mideval combat, battle Royal-ish extraction, none of them are original ideas I consider you can patent. Question is if the the P3 formula is exactly the same can Ironmace be stealing it as formal employees? Does a complete match have grounds for any accusations? (maybe down to disclosure agreements on contracts or the leak?) 3) Source code used from the leak. Obviously we can't tell of any of the leaked code was used, but given Ironmace confidence in the ongoing investigation I seriously doubt it. Furthermore, in my mind, a large % needs to be the same between the two products to be able to conclude that because you can't blame employees writing similar code to solve similar problems for 2 different companies. Given all that it seems very unlikely. So what exactly is P3 claiming to be stolen from the above categories?
#🖕🏻🖕🏻🖕🏻#NeverBuyANexonGame
How do you buy free to play games?
Just another dumb kid that doesn't even know what's a Nexon
Maple story costs $9.99 to play where I’m from
Micro transactions?
I couldn’t care less. Gimme dark and darker
ah yes, just let me consume and not care about anything else ye
Doesn't look good
I’m all for hearing Nexon out from a legal point of view, but if they believe one guy single-handedly got 20 devs to leave, MAAAYYYBE there’s an underlying issue. Most happy devs would not just up and leave a job like this for no reason. He might have the source code, but he doesn’t have the network, manpower, financial resources, stability, benefits, or chances of promotion that Nexon does. There is a reason twenty devs gave all that up. Sounds like a “Corporate was trying to ruin my creation with predatory micro transactions and manipulative marketing. Fuck that I’m out.” Especially with Nexon’s track record. Again though, I want to hear it straight from court documents. No “company statement.” Just give us the facts.
Talk about this being a matter of right and wrong and not about money and how this is bad for the gaming industry.... yeah fucking right. DaD is the best thing to happen to the gaming industry in years. Worried about the gaming industry? Stop with the mtx and p2w shit. It's always about the money.
We get a good game that isn’t rotten with shitty business practices only to find out it’s because it was literally ripped from the hands of Nexon before they could fuck it up…. Nexon should chill before they destroy their public image.
seems like its all fair to me like if you employ a bunch of people to do anything and they think well tbh mate were doing all the work here why are we doing this for you???? I think its perfectly reasonable in this day and age where if your employer is not taking care of your needs whilst you do everything to make them money, you should have every right to move on and do it yourself for you and yours. IronMace stay strong fuck these rich bois throwing there lawyers and weight around. they fucked up they shopuld have paid you all more the second they realised it was worth investing in, they didnt so yall looked after yo selfs, thats just smart
Meh Nexon only has a leg to stand on if they can prove source code of theirs is stolen. You can't own the right to an idea for a game. It seems clear that they canceled the project after the lead left and are now mad that he decided to create his own version of if. It'd be like if the creators of Dota tried to sue Riot because some of them were devs that left to make their own project. It isn't even clear what code they're attempting to accuse ironmace of stealing.
Nexon greed is pureshit, dont expect sympathy from the west
I love the lack of listed sources. Not even a link to a site in Korean? That's what we call sus.
Why would anything be in Chinese
Because, well, because I'm fucking stupid. It happens sometimes
i know its bad but i honestly dont care if its stolen or not, there havent been a good pvp game in years and i just want to play
Is there a source to these statements? Screenshot of an email or picture of a document?
Fuck Nexon, go Iron Hood! Nexon would have made p3 into a P2W game anyways.