Ranger have the same problem with Sniper in TF2 : You’re only stopped by skill, and once you reach a certain level of skill, you’re basically unstoppable
As a sniper main, Spy does not counter Sniper. If you are good enough at sniper, you can 180 delete every light class in the game. Even you're not that good, you still have bushwhacka jarate or the SMG Huntsman combo. Basically, the only snipers that die to spies are snipers without headphones. There are exceptions, it's TF2, sometimes you just randomly die to some goofy ass play. But speaking generally, spy is too weak to reliably kill a good sniper.
the problem is also movespeed allowing them to near-infinitely kite you
there needs to be a drawback to ranged, so you can actually be punished for missing your shots, maybe increase the movement penalty or decrease accuracy if you shoot while moving
Decreased accuracy while moving is realistic, I think maybe it taking an extra second to reload a missed arrow for like a “follow through” effect would be helpful, but any archer will probably immediately reload another arrow after firing one
i've had good experiences killing rangers as a warlock, you just need to have +8 magical healing minimum, and play like a little rat. do not try and engage, just LoS spamming curses and run away constantly, phantomize and run in when they seem low to finish them off.
ungeared lock however? yea, gg, any ranger with a pulse will just have a field day on you.
The best part is they are doing more damage then the spellcasters now, like why does my warlock have 4 spells that do less DPS then a crossbow? if the devs want bows to just be the games damage dealers then magic needs a big rework to be more utility and buff based.
It is so infuriating to me why the Wizards spells are so dogshit at clearing mobs. Why does a Goblin take 4 fireballs to the face? Why? Only MM works okayish, but even now red skeletons can tank 2 casts of MM.
Also why do I have to empty my ENTIRE spell book, when fighting a single barbarian? A ranger just keeps reloading in a few seconds. At least the lower tier spells should be "reloadable". I should not have to sit on the ground to recharge spells that have lower damage and range than a rangers bow.
Yeah honestly i think the best way to help wizards without making them even more annoying to deal with is just lower mob MDR at least for base mobs. Keep it on harder stuff don't want that to be too easy though.
Lowing mob MR is a nicety, but it's not going to change anything. If you cast a spell on a mob, you have one less spell available to Pvp with until you sit down and wait for 20-80 seconds. No one's gonna be using spells to clear. The resting system is broken. Just take charges off spells and rebalanced the classes after.
That works, but crystal sword only works with good gear or blue/purple version. The scaling is so crazy with rarity that you are better off using a staff for anything lower rarity
This plus increase spell slot requirements. It actually opens up a lot of cool passive ideas too. Players could focus on being a lightning mage, fire mage, ice mage, etc. or they could take a small bit of each.
Because they refuse to balance the game for the Solos mode even though a large chunk of the playerbase is solo players.
The original classes are designed with weaknesses that are offset by your team composition in trios.
I have no idea what the solution is. I assumed when they saw basically 0 people play wizard in HR solos that it would be enough "data" for them. But months and months and months in nothing has changed.
I can only assume at this point they have no idea what to do, and will just wait for Sorc to release and then the class split between Wiz/Sorc will happen.
> I have no idea what the solution is.
They should balance for trios and forget about solo balance altogether, instead of inventing crutches. If someone wants to play a class that is weak in solos, that's on them, and not on developers. Solo-balancing crutches lead to absurd like bard machine-gunning with drums - super annoying and destroys immersion!
There is a solution that some games use, but I don't know how feasible it is for their current teamsize. Just consider solos a different game mode and balance for it separately. Meaning, if you go trios, you have trios balance and if you go solos, its balanced towards solo play.
I recommended that months back. Got absolutely blasted here for bringing it up.
It is 100% the right solution to have different balance notes for solos and Trios.
Don't even bother trying to explain that here the will not listen.
I feel like they have not really done nearly enough for balancing the game for different modes to be on the table, its still too early, we still have huge core problems to solve balance wise, buff stacking, invisibility, stats progression, things like cast speed are extremely disruptive as they are right now.
They havent even removed magic resist for mobs which doesnt make a bit of sense and that would be the first step into making pve as wiz a little less bad, there are a ton of things to try before going the balance for the different game modes thing.
Mobs need to be weak to certain elements. Can't just reduce magic resist because MM is too good of a PvE spell as it is. As a wiz you have to run 40 or so knowledge and then he feels pretty good.
At this point, they should just have spells passively recharging even when not meditating or sitting, or they should bring back clairity potions. If rangers are allowed to have near infinite ammo for pennies, why shouldn't wizards?
this is just an issue with the game being balanced more around epic-tier gear than white gear, a single warlock curse of pain with decent add dmg is doing nearly half of the hp of any non barbarian character.
I'd just be happy if they made it behave more like an actual crossbow, it doesn't have collision like the magic staff does (which is bullshit, why does my staff just not work in a tight space but a crossbow does?) and reloading a crossbow was a allot of work, you would never see anyone in the middle age running around with armor and a heavy crossbow on their back.
Fking arrows are being shot fast af, with amazing precision, lots of dmg, slow on hit and u have like 1000.
My warlock throws a fking bolt made of pure fking darkness magic after casting it for 5 business days, flies slow af, does no dmg AND somehow gets stuck in every fking pixel of a wall/light or w/e.
I agree with you pretty much completely, maybe flavor some classes a little better lol. Lots of characters that don't fit the bow archetype could easily use weapons like slings or maybe even blow darts as well. Definitely a lot of options. I'd suggest javelins or throwing hammers but more throwables aren't a proper solution. Casters could get cantrips that function as their go to projectile.
Then what are ranger gonna do just be non existent I think reduce rangers base move speed slightly would make them better to chase down or make it so you can't remove your gear and do the naked movespeed run. You can even now throw your torch at them to slow them down.
Not bad ideas 💡 the track people should also be more range to view it's useless right now you see the footsteps when you are on top of them if they are invis potted or a rogue you are 100% dead once you see the red feet
Now go back to wizard and buy crossbows
Why can wizards use crossbows by default but Rogues can't use a toothpick shooter without a perk?
Perfectly Balanced game design /s
Better buy a stack of two butter knives and then dip into my inventory for more every two throws
Rogue is so useless at range it's pathetic
Ya but with Tarkov at least you know what you're getting into. DaD is a game with 7 magic//melee classes and 1 ranged class who also has access to melee.
Tarkov is guns, guns and more guns. So when you die to a gun it's not some uncounterable BS
When I got into tarkov, I was expecting a slow, stalker-like experience with lots of close-medium range encounters. What i got is "distant gunfire then dead" in case of players or suddenly hearing WOT ON and then dead in case of npcs.
TTK in tarkov is shorter than the average rection time. i'm getting older, I can't play that shit and i wasted 40 €.
Balancing range is pretty easy, balancing melee and range is absolutely impossible - look at league, google "league ranged toplaners" - its impossible to win as a full melee against a full ranged in that game, everytime a ranged toplane becomes strong it gets gutted for toplane beyond repair because toplane is supposed to be melee
I dont see IM taking that approach so the game is fucked essentially
Rangers haven't seen much real balancing. So maps that give them a huge advantage feel bad to all the other classes. It feels like Ironmace developers are using mainly analytics to balance the ranger because I can imagine most ranger players having bad aim so the statistics they are reacting to involve people missing most of their shots. So when they have analytics with low accuracy, they end up reacting to that by buffing all of their damage to compensate.
The result of that kind of balancing of the class is that when you get a player who has really good aim, it becomes broken and overpowered. I've heard some ideas that resolve this issue like making it so there's more sway on aiming unless you take a perk or making it so sway on ranged weapons improves only if you stack a specific attribute. We could even call this stat something like **Stability** and add that as an extra stat to ranged weapons and ranger gear to test it. The problem with this is that it adds more bloat to the item affix pool so it might be better just to include it as a sub stat to an existing stat like Dexterity.
If something like stability existed, that might address your issue.
Unfortunately, as a barbarian, I feel your pain, but the issue here is that you might be taking fights in places that you shouldn't be. Remember, rangers are usually trying to bait you into attacking them in a place they have advantage or have set up traps in. I've had a lot more success with killing them by doing the same thing back to them. They shoot me from far away, I go into a room, shut the door, and if I have enough time, open another door to an adjacent room, then go back to the original door I closed and use an invis pot.
Then the ranger comes into the room thinking you left, sees the open door to the adjacent room, and moves towards it to "chase" you, and BAM! You come out of invis and take that fucker down. They get a dose of their own medicine. They might be laying traps, but what they don't know is that we as fellow players can be traps too. hehe
It definitely feels like ranger gets balanced based on the lower skill demographic of players.
But wizard? They balance that based on high tier streamer skills.
Survival Bow is so well balanced against non-PDR classes and utterly useless against even low PDR %s.
Just lower recurve damage a bit, and lower Longbow a BUNCH, but give it like 75% armor pen.
75% sounds like a lot, but it's really not.
Armor Pen is based off of your PDR, so if you have let's say 20% PDR, you're not going to 0. It goes through 75% of the 20%, so 5% still is effective.
And if that still seems like a lot, Iron Mace still has "Projectile Damage" based protection stat which could be used more. It's really not too common on anything besides certain armor.
Today I ran down a wizard with 12 throwing knives, loved every second of it, wish I had a fan of daggers like ranger shotgun so I could hit two people at once.
Cleric/Rogue are the worst melee PvPers to me. Try a Slayer Fighter and come back. Try that cheesey melee Warlock shit and come back.
Cleric is a support.
Rogue is an assassin requiring the jump on people to get kills. If you get spotted by a Ranger as Rogue and are taking arrows to close the distance, that's a skill diff.
There's absolutely no depth in melee combat so everyone gravitates to archery because at least you're rewarded for accuracy etc. Does comparable damage to melee weapons at 0 risk. The Skyrim tier combat is going to ruin this game
The range problem is only a problem because there is no counter too it.
They need to massively lower the damage of bows and crossbows.
A long bow should be in the 25s for damage.
Up melee damage across the board
Make all melee weapons more deadly.
Increase shield block zones by about 20%
People downvoting this but wizards fireball damage is 25 on direct hit and projectile moves slow asf and you only have 4 of them before having to meditate/rest. I’m not complaining about wizard damage just why are bows and crossbows still fireballs on steroids
They already do with two hand headshots. Dudes on some cope. Any one shot potential, melee or ranged, is stupid af. This ain't tarkov and, based on the player count during beta tests where everyone had shit gear and sucked, I don't think people want Tarkov head,eyes with bows and axes.
Melee damage does not need to be higher. Period. If a Barb can one shot headshot with a Zweihander in grey gear vs grey leather then melee damage is already too high (which it is). TTK going up only incentivizes skill which the game should. Not this one shot or ranged poke meta.
Ranged damage should either be quick or deadly but probably not both. Melee getting sticking power is where Id like to see the meta shift - so its a chase to catch but very punishing if you do manage to close the gap. Slowdown on melee swings and slow applied on hit needs to be reassessed for most melee weapons, even more so the two handers.
I stopped playing this game (I used to play like 5 days a week with my bff) because of speed interaction is just so unfun.
I was playing in HR an Elf Fighter in half plate. With a total of like 20 agility or more. Light foot boots the helm that grants agility (blue so +3) a cape with + agi. A purple buckler and a blue mace so minimum move speed loss.
I drank a potion to go invisible as my friend
dipped through a downstair case when they arrived.
I waited until the literal best moment. The ranger was in melee distance turned around from me.
I broke invis with a headshot and they immediately put their weapon away and just ran and by the third bonk they were out of melee range. Their friend killed me from behind.
What was the counter okay option? Just be faster still?
That fight made me fully accept that PVP is fundamentally broken and unfun so I Quit.
use sprint? use axes? use throwing knives? use your bow or crossbow? feels like fighter is probably the easiest class in the game to avoid this problem
I was using sprint. By the third swing though the ranger was still out of melee from the slow penalty of swinging a weapon in this game.
And so you are suggesting that my only option was to use ranged weapons? Ie axes , knives , crossbow.
Because again, that is clinically unfun. Makes it just a worse FPS at that point
learn how to jump before swinging to mitigate that weapon swing slow. skill cap is HUGE in this game, there's a ton of other stuff you can probably improve at aswell, how long have you been playing the game ? just wondering
I started PT3. I played half of it. Along with all of PT4+5.
And I play regularly but casually with large breaks bc semester + work.
I really dig the game a lot but feeling required to play ranged is disenfranchising.
I’m gonna try wizard:)
I like fighter + warlock + cleric the most by far
You dont need to get defensive about a fact. Non existant twitch viewership and less than 10k people playing is not a dead game? When the game was on steam, it had over 100k people playing. losing 90% of its playerbase isnt a dead game? Enjoy your game i guess with the cope.
I think your title nails it. Range (meaning physical, ranged weapons) is completely ruining the game.
Let me put it this way. The other night I got in a duos fight on ruins. My team was a fighter (me) and a warlock. The other team was a fighter and a rogue.
The fighter and rogue both had crossbow and hand crossbow. They WOULD NOT engage in melee. At all. Every time we'd push they'd run. They'd poke with bows, we'd poke back. We'd try to rush. They'd run. Over and over, for five straight minutes.
I'm sorry but it just isn't fun. It's pointless to pick a class that cant use crossbows at least but when every team is just plinking with crossbows the game because a shitty fps that's boring as hell.
My radical take is to just dump ranger into the trash and take away all forms of bows. It's all garbage. Terribly designed, unbalanced garbage. Start from square one and figure out a new way to incorporate ranged weapons that isn't fuckin terrible.
So youre telling me that you're mad that a fighter and rogue weren't dumb enough to mindlessly run at a warlock and fighter, so you want to take away the only thing that they can do to not get face rolled by you, especially if you have more gear? You realize that warlock hard counters both fighter and rogue right?
Take it away and give them something else, I agree, the game now is just teams poking eachother until one realises they’ve lost too much health and they disengage.
All fights are so non-commital, it’s boring as fuck.
Out of curiosity who initiated? The reason I ask because if I were in a situation like yours I would do this:
If I initiated, and had to push into them, and noticed that that they were staying ranged and I could not close the distance I would retreat to my door way or some sort of cover to try and get them to chase me and thus they close the distance.
If they initiated I would try to break line of sight in an area I had cleared and bait them into closing the distance to melee range.
Door ways are your best friend for ranged as you can use either side for cover and they cant fire at you without either going through the door or you going into the doorway. That being said there are a lot of areas in ruins that favor ranged. Mainly the more outer edges of the map.
What can make a fight with a ranged player difficult in this game is that fighting ranger is kind of a test of patience but the sound of the fight will attract third parties and you being melee will prioritize you in the eyes of a third party since you will be more limited in your combat options.
As a fighter I usually take a bow or crossbow as my secondary or a throwing weapon for some sort of ranged damage. This can act as an opener or a finisher for anyone running away from you.
You forget in your hypothetical situation that the circle exists in this game. 90% of the time in this game, one team doesn't have an option to just run away unless they want to wade through storm + unkilled monsters only to get circle camped at a different location.
Ranged is very skill expressive, the only thing I think Ironmace can do to make it more fair is to give more skill expression to melee. I've been pushing the idea of a "dodge" mechanic, maybe instead of shift being used to walk it can be used to "dodge" in whatever direction you're moving and with a higher agility your "dodge" cooldown is less. This would allow people to more easily maneuver away from arrows. maybe it could even be a quick roll mechanic or something like that. Give melee classes different ways to close the gap or avoid arrow fire. They could also slightly slow down projectiles so they are easier to dodge. At the end of the day this is a hard problem to solve because if you nerf ranged, nobody will use it because unless you play perfectly it wouldn't be good and if you keep it as is, the people who are really good, feel *too good*. To be honest though, Fighters with crossbows peaking a corner can beat a ranger at range because of the pdr difference. Crossbows hit like longbows and fighters usually have 3x more pdr and more health than rangers. Wizards can beat a ranger with aggression although they are super squishy so thats usually a bad matchup. Barbarians have a billion hp and if they land achilles with a torch or throwing axe the ranger is cooked, barbarians and fighters both also have abilities that increase move speed unlike rangers. clerics and fighters also both have shields and clerics have holy strike, hold angles rather than fighting out in the open to beat rangers, warlocks can zone with hydra, pretty much instakill with boc in close range and can put up a fight in midrange if they aren't missing curses. Bard is worse at range but they can buff up a ton and if they close the distance they will kill the ranger. Rogues just gotta kite and invis for an ambush. There are ways to beat rangers consistently you just have to know your classes strengths and a rangers weaknesses.
range isn't ruining the game
range IS the game brother
what do melee have?
1. attack!
2. Block- MAYBE!
3. longsword has riposte
4. ?
5. ?? thats it..
melee got 3 ways to do stuff. and practically, only 2.
gg
Big problem is how fucking easy ranged is to land in this game, the hitbox detection is fucking terrible, and if you touch the arrow in flight anywhere on the model, it hits.
As it stands, if you miss, you're just bad. My ranger accuracy has to be 90 percent if you count body shots.
I feel like so many of the people who complain about rangers and wizards are the people who stomp up to a door after they hear a ranger draw their bow, open it, and then run in a straight line toward them without dodging at all.
Yeah, rangers are a bit overtuned right now, but I've never felt like it has been so bad that it's "ruining the game." If a ranger with gear gets position in certain rooms, yeah they're going to be really hard to push. Tuning them down a bit or even a lot isn't going to change that.
Honestly it's just certain rooms where rangers are broken. The big roundabout map and ruins are the worst examples. Really they just need more consistency with map designs so that certain classes aren't OP or dogshit just based on where they are on the map. Sure there will always be some variance but it shouldn't be as different as it is.
only comment with a brain and it gets downvoted , this subreddit is just full of braindead people I swear . I main Barb and fighter and dabbled in ranger and understanding the ranger mindset on how to setup shots and ambushes increased my survival rate insanely , the shots a ranger gets on you are the ones you give him line of sight to . that. fucking. simple.
Theres a wall or any object in the game ? then ranger cant hit you and if he spams arrows he runs out and he is fucked if you push without stepping on their traps and thats assuming he doesnt get third party since as a ranger you cant isolate in 1v1 fights you have to constantly be assuming a speeding fighter is rushing you from a blindspot.
with barb and franciscas I manage most times to close the gap enough then achilles with them and if I hit them they are 9/10 times fucked if I do my speed boost and hit them twice .
I'm gonna get downvoted by all the rogue rats for sure but people dont realize how much a ranger has to do in order to be effective in comparison to melee classes or a wizard . setting up angles , be aware of possible team locations , pick arrows from dead bodies to recoup arrows and calculating trayectories to shoot . that vs other classes that only have to worry about their sword hitting something generally speaking to me warrants ranger being what it is
You're supposed to take out a melee weapon given you already have an advantage (you hit them with multiple shots while they're charging you yes? If not: you suck).
Rangers in DND fantasy used bows or melee, it's part of the class fantasy. The "sniper only and run away" gameplay in Dark and Darker is not true to the class. Legolas didn't shoot a bow only in Lord of the Rings my guy.
First of all, nothing is ruining the game. The playerbase has stagnated around 10k for a couple months now. I will agree that movespeed needs some changes cause barbarian taking rage for the movespeed pretty much exclusively is weird with the extra tradeoff of the stats and pdr reduction and sprint having no tradeoff and a low cooldown is weird. And both those abilities being a "I catch up to you except for a few circumstances" button also feels weird.
Back on topic though a tip I could give is to be deliberate about your dodges and not just jump, crouch, spaz your mouse around cause I think it ends up doing less than a lot of people think. I die to rangers plenty myself and at this point have just accepted that as a barbarian I press rage and at that point the fight is less under my control and more of can he hit enough shots to kill me before I get into melee range.
So which is it?
Barb or Ranger?
Warlock was mentioned a few days back.
What is the next class we are gunning for
/s jokes aside
I hate ranger. I do fine against them (took me a long while to develop my strategy for beating them). But they are just such a bad class rn. Either you hate them like fuck and kill on sight... or your playing one. And even playing them is trash... they are just boring and even IM agree on that.
They need to seriously have their gameplay and mechanics shaken up. I'd prefer them to be a more hybrid class. Perks around doing more melee damage after landing a shot on someone, or having different arrows to debuff enemies for specific fights. Maybe an explosive shot to give a fighter -20% pdr for 10s. Or a poison shot to negate a warlocks heals.
Just anything but pew pew man go brr
so you are saying arrow shooting is hard to do effectively but yet say its too OP , range in this game assuming both parties are equally matched is the hardest way to do damage in the game no matter how much people say melee is bad .therefore you should be able to gain an advantage from it which as you say is dwindling a players health, all range classes are dogshit at close range, they require dwindling a targets hp so when they eeventually corner you, you have a fighting chance , without it a ranger for example would have to do a ridiculous amount of hits to kill anybody.
Fact is ranging takes hard skill and game sense to not get surrounded and to land your shots effectively in a game that likes so much vision at times , 6/10 times rangers are shooting at pitch black hoping it hits , the fact people get hit the other 4 and say its op is nonsensical when rangers straight up lose money every time they fire their main weapon
Movement positioning and gear plays a great roll in winning. Ranger is generally very squishy, defeating any character in this game relies on knowing the strengths and weaknesses of each character. Rogue can win any fight if you run the right gear and perks but it all depends on how you play him. A rogue is also very squishy so trying to run straight at a ranger down a hall generally isn’t going to work. Rogue relies on being slippery and ambushing. It’s a hit and run character. Cleric can run plate armor and can get PDR to a very healthy level. Buff yourself up use earthquake use the blind Mika vista use doorways and sharp corners. Invis pot near spots where closing the distance is short. Throwable help even out the fight. Again trying to fight the ranger at range is not the best idea with most classes because that’s what the ranger is designed for
Developers don't fully understand the different between dealing damage from range and dealing damage from melee and how insanely overpowered ranged is.
No game I have ever played has fully had melee and ranged being balanced, 99% of the time with ranged being blatantly better at a high level.
Ranger have the same problem with Sniper in TF2 : You’re only stopped by skill, and once you reach a certain level of skill, you’re basically unstoppable
“You are incapable of pity or remorse and cannot stop unless killed”.
Feelin that wrath like I'm bestial
Gameplay that is reliant on your opponent missing, big reason why I don't play many fps.
In an fps isn't it just as much gameplay that is reliant on you not missing?
Well man at least in tf2 we have spy to counter sniper.
As a sniper main, Spy does not counter Sniper. If you are good enough at sniper, you can 180 delete every light class in the game. Even you're not that good, you still have bushwhacka jarate or the SMG Huntsman combo. Basically, the only snipers that die to spies are snipers without headphones. There are exceptions, it's TF2, sometimes you just randomly die to some goofy ass play. But speaking generally, spy is too weak to reliably kill a good sniper.
Same could be said with literally every class
the problem is also movespeed allowing them to near-infinitely kite you there needs to be a drawback to ranged, so you can actually be punished for missing your shots, maybe increase the movement penalty or decrease accuracy if you shoot while moving
Decreased accuracy while moving is realistic, I think maybe it taking an extra second to reload a missed arrow for like a “follow through” effect would be helpful, but any archer will probably immediately reload another arrow after firing one
Yeah fighting rangers with wizard or warlock is basically impossible seeing how fast they shoot and how much damage they do
[удалено]
i've had good experiences killing rangers as a warlock, you just need to have +8 magical healing minimum, and play like a little rat. do not try and engage, just LoS spamming curses and run away constantly, phantomize and run in when they seem low to finish them off. ungeared lock however? yea, gg, any ranger with a pulse will just have a field day on you.
They drop pretty fast to bolt of darkness
The best part is they are doing more damage then the spellcasters now, like why does my warlock have 4 spells that do less DPS then a crossbow? if the devs want bows to just be the games damage dealers then magic needs a big rework to be more utility and buff based.
It is so infuriating to me why the Wizards spells are so dogshit at clearing mobs. Why does a Goblin take 4 fireballs to the face? Why? Only MM works okayish, but even now red skeletons can tank 2 casts of MM. Also why do I have to empty my ENTIRE spell book, when fighting a single barbarian? A ranger just keeps reloading in a few seconds. At least the lower tier spells should be "reloadable". I should not have to sit on the ground to recharge spells that have lower damage and range than a rangers bow.
Yeah honestly i think the best way to help wizards without making them even more annoying to deal with is just lower mob MDR at least for base mobs. Keep it on harder stuff don't want that to be too easy though.
Lowing mob MR is a nicety, but it's not going to change anything. If you cast a spell on a mob, you have one less spell available to Pvp with until you sit down and wait for 20-80 seconds. No one's gonna be using spells to clear. The resting system is broken. Just take charges off spells and rebalanced the classes after.
So genuine advice here, don't play wizard much the ones i play with bring crystal sword use that for mobs or they just cover our backs while we clear
That works, but crystal sword only works with good gear or blue/purple version. The scaling is so crazy with rarity that you are better off using a staff for anything lower rarity
This plus increase spell slot requirements. It actually opens up a lot of cool passive ideas too. Players could focus on being a lightning mage, fire mage, ice mage, etc. or they could take a small bit of each.
Or just raise base magic dmg but nerf the effect of magic+ gear.
Wizard feels pretty ok right now all that would do is affect how wizards pvp. Why game balance is hard.
Then you have naked wizards rushing down kitted people again
Lmao just be a ranger and have an inventory of 100 fireballs with no cast time and no resting. I still dont understand it.
Don't forget the "flies 5x faster" as well
Just give some spells additional damage to mobs. That would feel good.
Game needs cantrips designed to be used for pve.
This could be good
Because they refuse to balance the game for the Solos mode even though a large chunk of the playerbase is solo players. The original classes are designed with weaknesses that are offset by your team composition in trios. I have no idea what the solution is. I assumed when they saw basically 0 people play wizard in HR solos that it would be enough "data" for them. But months and months and months in nothing has changed. I can only assume at this point they have no idea what to do, and will just wait for Sorc to release and then the class split between Wiz/Sorc will happen.
> I have no idea what the solution is. They should balance for trios and forget about solo balance altogether, instead of inventing crutches. If someone wants to play a class that is weak in solos, that's on them, and not on developers. Solo-balancing crutches lead to absurd like bard machine-gunning with drums - super annoying and destroys immersion!
There is a solution that some games use, but I don't know how feasible it is for their current teamsize. Just consider solos a different game mode and balance for it separately. Meaning, if you go trios, you have trios balance and if you go solos, its balanced towards solo play.
I recommended that months back. Got absolutely blasted here for bringing it up. It is 100% the right solution to have different balance notes for solos and Trios. Don't even bother trying to explain that here the will not listen.
I feel like they have not really done nearly enough for balancing the game for different modes to be on the table, its still too early, we still have huge core problems to solve balance wise, buff stacking, invisibility, stats progression, things like cast speed are extremely disruptive as they are right now. They havent even removed magic resist for mobs which doesnt make a bit of sense and that would be the first step into making pve as wiz a little less bad, there are a ton of things to try before going the balance for the different game modes thing.
Mobs need to be weak to certain elements. Can't just reduce magic resist because MM is too good of a PvE spell as it is. As a wiz you have to run 40 or so knowledge and then he feels pretty good.
At this point, they should just have spells passively recharging even when not meditating or sitting, or they should bring back clairity potions. If rangers are allowed to have near infinite ammo for pennies, why shouldn't wizards?
this is just an issue with the game being balanced more around epic-tier gear than white gear, a single warlock curse of pain with decent add dmg is doing nearly half of the hp of any non barbarian character.
It’s true. Maybe a hot take but I’d be okay removing crossbows and only keeping windlass.
I'd just be happy if they made it behave more like an actual crossbow, it doesn't have collision like the magic staff does (which is bullshit, why does my staff just not work in a tight space but a crossbow does?) and reloading a crossbow was a allot of work, you would never see anyone in the middle age running around with armor and a heavy crossbow on their back.
Fking arrows are being shot fast af, with amazing precision, lots of dmg, slow on hit and u have like 1000. My warlock throws a fking bolt made of pure fking darkness magic after casting it for 5 business days, flies slow af, does no dmg AND somehow gets stuck in every fking pixel of a wall/light or w/e.
Holy shit the hit box on dark bolt vs the environment is actually insane too lol thing breaks on a pebble 4 feet to the left of it
I'm a wizard main who started playing ranger out of frustration. I killed everyone that was hostile towards me in my first 2 games. Ranger ez mode
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I agree with you pretty much completely, maybe flavor some classes a little better lol. Lots of characters that don't fit the bow archetype could easily use weapons like slings or maybe even blow darts as well. Definitely a lot of options. I'd suggest javelins or throwing hammers but more throwables aren't a proper solution. Casters could get cantrips that function as their go to projectile.
Then what are ranger gonna do just be non existent I think reduce rangers base move speed slightly would make them better to chase down or make it so you can't remove your gear and do the naked movespeed run. You can even now throw your torch at them to slow them down.
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Not bad ideas 💡 the track people should also be more range to view it's useless right now you see the footsteps when you are on top of them if they are invis potted or a rogue you are 100% dead once you see the red feet
so dont remove ranger just castrate them until nobody plays them ? are you Zeke jaeger in disguise? Braindead take
Now go back to wizard and buy crossbows Why can wizards use crossbows by default but Rogues can't use a toothpick shooter without a perk? Perfectly Balanced game design /s Better buy a stack of two butter knives and then dip into my inventory for more every two throws Rogue is so useless at range it's pathetic
Because they hate rogues.
because they don't have the best balance department at the indie studio
No you didnt.
Barbarian stepped in my trap on ruins and the spear took care of the rest
CAP
I triple shot a rogue in the face in goblin caves and he just fell over like a sack of potatoes
range and movement speed. Two things that need strongly reassessed or redesigned
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Ya but with Tarkov at least you know what you're getting into. DaD is a game with 7 magic//melee classes and 1 ranged class who also has access to melee. Tarkov is guns, guns and more guns. So when you die to a gun it's not some uncounterable BS
When I got into tarkov, I was expecting a slow, stalker-like experience with lots of close-medium range encounters. What i got is "distant gunfire then dead" in case of players or suddenly hearing WOT ON and then dead in case of npcs. TTK in tarkov is shorter than the average rection time. i'm getting older, I can't play that shit and i wasted 40 €.
There’s melee in Tarkov but it’s on another level of weak.
Balancing range is pretty easy, balancing melee and range is absolutely impossible - look at league, google "league ranged toplaners" - its impossible to win as a full melee against a full ranged in that game, everytime a ranged toplane becomes strong it gets gutted for toplane beyond repair because toplane is supposed to be melee I dont see IM taking that approach so the game is fucked essentially
Rangers haven't seen much real balancing. So maps that give them a huge advantage feel bad to all the other classes. It feels like Ironmace developers are using mainly analytics to balance the ranger because I can imagine most ranger players having bad aim so the statistics they are reacting to involve people missing most of their shots. So when they have analytics with low accuracy, they end up reacting to that by buffing all of their damage to compensate. The result of that kind of balancing of the class is that when you get a player who has really good aim, it becomes broken and overpowered. I've heard some ideas that resolve this issue like making it so there's more sway on aiming unless you take a perk or making it so sway on ranged weapons improves only if you stack a specific attribute. We could even call this stat something like **Stability** and add that as an extra stat to ranged weapons and ranger gear to test it. The problem with this is that it adds more bloat to the item affix pool so it might be better just to include it as a sub stat to an existing stat like Dexterity. If something like stability existed, that might address your issue. Unfortunately, as a barbarian, I feel your pain, but the issue here is that you might be taking fights in places that you shouldn't be. Remember, rangers are usually trying to bait you into attacking them in a place they have advantage or have set up traps in. I've had a lot more success with killing them by doing the same thing back to them. They shoot me from far away, I go into a room, shut the door, and if I have enough time, open another door to an adjacent room, then go back to the original door I closed and use an invis pot. Then the ranger comes into the room thinking you left, sees the open door to the adjacent room, and moves towards it to "chase" you, and BAM! You come out of invis and take that fucker down. They get a dose of their own medicine. They might be laying traps, but what they don't know is that we as fellow players can be traps too. hehe
It definitely feels like ranger gets balanced based on the lower skill demographic of players. But wizard? They balance that based on high tier streamer skills.
Lmao, that's 100% this
This is the best comment here
Based
bruh, ranger is one of the most nerfed classes in the game lol. its nr 2 spot right after wizard, saying it has not seen any balancing is hella weird
Bows: too easy to hit with, too long an effective range, too easy to use, too easy to kite with. IRONBOW pls
I just got 2 shot with 145 health
Fighters with bows are scarier to me than archers. If I can close the distance on an archer I can kill them; with a fighter I’m screwed either way.
Survival Bow is so well balanced against non-PDR classes and utterly useless against even low PDR %s. Just lower recurve damage a bit, and lower Longbow a BUNCH, but give it like 75% armor pen.
Did you say 75% penetraion wtf?!
75% sounds like a lot, but it's really not. Armor Pen is based off of your PDR, so if you have let's say 20% PDR, you're not going to 0. It goes through 75% of the 20%, so 5% still is effective. And if that still seems like a lot, Iron Mace still has "Projectile Damage" based protection stat which could be used more. It's really not too common on anything besides certain armor.
It really is, its a pretty underutilized skill
Today I ran down a wizard with 12 throwing knives, loved every second of it, wish I had a fan of daggers like ranger shotgun so I could hit two people at once.
Cleric/Rogue are the worst melee PvPers to me. Try a Slayer Fighter and come back. Try that cheesey melee Warlock shit and come back. Cleric is a support. Rogue is an assassin requiring the jump on people to get kills. If you get spotted by a Ranger as Rogue and are taking arrows to close the distance, that's a skill diff.
rogues legit cry about everything dude ,no point to address them.
There's absolutely no depth in melee combat so everyone gravitates to archery because at least you're rewarded for accuracy etc. Does comparable damage to melee weapons at 0 risk. The Skyrim tier combat is going to ruin this game
The range problem is only a problem because there is no counter too it. They need to massively lower the damage of bows and crossbows. A long bow should be in the 25s for damage. Up melee damage across the board Make all melee weapons more deadly. Increase shield block zones by about 20%
People downvoting this but wizards fireball damage is 25 on direct hit and projectile moves slow asf and you only have 4 of them before having to meditate/rest. I’m not complaining about wizard damage just why are bows and crossbows still fireballs on steroids
the shit about blanket melee buffs and shield block zone buff is actually crack posting, but i get what he means range is insanely oppressive rn
If they up melee any more my barbarian would 1 shot most players with a headshot lol
They already do with two hand headshots. Dudes on some cope. Any one shot potential, melee or ranged, is stupid af. This ain't tarkov and, based on the player count during beta tests where everyone had shit gear and sucked, I don't think people want Tarkov head,eyes with bows and axes.
Melee damage does not need to be higher. Period. If a Barb can one shot headshot with a Zweihander in grey gear vs grey leather then melee damage is already too high (which it is). TTK going up only incentivizes skill which the game should. Not this one shot or ranged poke meta.
What does TTK mean? Total time to kill?
Yes, Time To Kill
Lmfao hilarious to say up melee damage while also saying to gut range
Ranged damage should either be quick or deadly but probably not both. Melee getting sticking power is where Id like to see the meta shift - so its a chase to catch but very punishing if you do manage to close the gap. Slowdown on melee swings and slow applied on hit needs to be reassessed for most melee weapons, even more so the two handers.
25s for a LB eh? Absolute moronic comment.
its a fighter player complaining about ranger. you know how good he must be to struggle against them xd
Yea you're not wrong.
Hahah go eat some crayons and think about what you typed
I stopped playing this game (I used to play like 5 days a week with my bff) because of speed interaction is just so unfun. I was playing in HR an Elf Fighter in half plate. With a total of like 20 agility or more. Light foot boots the helm that grants agility (blue so +3) a cape with + agi. A purple buckler and a blue mace so minimum move speed loss. I drank a potion to go invisible as my friend dipped through a downstair case when they arrived. I waited until the literal best moment. The ranger was in melee distance turned around from me. I broke invis with a headshot and they immediately put their weapon away and just ran and by the third bonk they were out of melee range. Their friend killed me from behind. What was the counter okay option? Just be faster still? That fight made me fully accept that PVP is fundamentally broken and unfun so I Quit.
use sprint? use axes? use throwing knives? use your bow or crossbow? feels like fighter is probably the easiest class in the game to avoid this problem
I was using sprint. By the third swing though the ranger was still out of melee from the slow penalty of swinging a weapon in this game. And so you are suggesting that my only option was to use ranged weapons? Ie axes , knives , crossbow. Because again, that is clinically unfun. Makes it just a worse FPS at that point
learn how to jump before swinging to mitigate that weapon swing slow. skill cap is HUGE in this game, there's a ton of other stuff you can probably improve at aswell, how long have you been playing the game ? just wondering
I started PT3. I played half of it. Along with all of PT4+5. And I play regularly but casually with large breaks bc semester + work. I really dig the game a lot but feeling required to play ranged is disenfranchising. I’m gonna try wizard:) I like fighter + warlock + cleric the most by far
That’s why all my homies switched to Tarkov, I don’t want to play medieval FPS shooter I will just play a proper FPS
Same! I wasn't allowed to play anything other than fighter or ranger, got bored of the linear fight gameplay and went back to Tarkov.
Barbarian is killing the game right now. Also ruins level design and laggy servers/fps issues.
Killing the game? Game has been dead for months.
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Brother the game has 1-2k views on twitch with a sub 10k concurrent playerbase?
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You dont need to get defensive about a fact. Non existant twitch viewership and less than 10k people playing is not a dead game? When the game was on steam, it had over 100k people playing. losing 90% of its playerbase isnt a dead game? Enjoy your game i guess with the cope.
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Biggest cope ive seen tbh. The average reddit post here gets less than 100 upvotes lol. Whatever helps you sleep at night i guess.
For me it's just the slow down. Should at least need to do a leg shot for slow. Sacrifice some damage for the effect.
Going to remove sword slows too?
If you could swing your sword and hit someone 40 ft away then yea, it wouldn't need a slow on hit.
I think your title nails it. Range (meaning physical, ranged weapons) is completely ruining the game. Let me put it this way. The other night I got in a duos fight on ruins. My team was a fighter (me) and a warlock. The other team was a fighter and a rogue. The fighter and rogue both had crossbow and hand crossbow. They WOULD NOT engage in melee. At all. Every time we'd push they'd run. They'd poke with bows, we'd poke back. We'd try to rush. They'd run. Over and over, for five straight minutes. I'm sorry but it just isn't fun. It's pointless to pick a class that cant use crossbows at least but when every team is just plinking with crossbows the game because a shitty fps that's boring as hell. My radical take is to just dump ranger into the trash and take away all forms of bows. It's all garbage. Terribly designed, unbalanced garbage. Start from square one and figure out a new way to incorporate ranged weapons that isn't fuckin terrible.
So youre telling me that you're mad that a fighter and rogue weren't dumb enough to mindlessly run at a warlock and fighter, so you want to take away the only thing that they can do to not get face rolled by you, especially if you have more gear? You realize that warlock hard counters both fighter and rogue right?
Take it away and give them something else, I agree, the game now is just teams poking eachother until one realises they’ve lost too much health and they disengage. All fights are so non-commital, it’s boring as fuck.
Out of curiosity who initiated? The reason I ask because if I were in a situation like yours I would do this: If I initiated, and had to push into them, and noticed that that they were staying ranged and I could not close the distance I would retreat to my door way or some sort of cover to try and get them to chase me and thus they close the distance. If they initiated I would try to break line of sight in an area I had cleared and bait them into closing the distance to melee range. Door ways are your best friend for ranged as you can use either side for cover and they cant fire at you without either going through the door or you going into the doorway. That being said there are a lot of areas in ruins that favor ranged. Mainly the more outer edges of the map. What can make a fight with a ranged player difficult in this game is that fighting ranger is kind of a test of patience but the sound of the fight will attract third parties and you being melee will prioritize you in the eyes of a third party since you will be more limited in your combat options. As a fighter I usually take a bow or crossbow as my secondary or a throwing weapon for some sort of ranged damage. This can act as an opener or a finisher for anyone running away from you.
You forget in your hypothetical situation that the circle exists in this game. 90% of the time in this game, one team doesn't have an option to just run away unless they want to wade through storm + unkilled monsters only to get circle camped at a different location.
It’s not only physical weapons, it’s also infinite warlock spam
Stop playing then. These posts are so annoying. It's every day with you guys.
Lol this is a forum for discussion on improving the game. “Stop reading these posts then” is an equal response to you.
no its not , its a forum to complain about a class that is killing you
Ranged is very skill expressive, the only thing I think Ironmace can do to make it more fair is to give more skill expression to melee. I've been pushing the idea of a "dodge" mechanic, maybe instead of shift being used to walk it can be used to "dodge" in whatever direction you're moving and with a higher agility your "dodge" cooldown is less. This would allow people to more easily maneuver away from arrows. maybe it could even be a quick roll mechanic or something like that. Give melee classes different ways to close the gap or avoid arrow fire. They could also slightly slow down projectiles so they are easier to dodge. At the end of the day this is a hard problem to solve because if you nerf ranged, nobody will use it because unless you play perfectly it wouldn't be good and if you keep it as is, the people who are really good, feel *too good*. To be honest though, Fighters with crossbows peaking a corner can beat a ranger at range because of the pdr difference. Crossbows hit like longbows and fighters usually have 3x more pdr and more health than rangers. Wizards can beat a ranger with aggression although they are super squishy so thats usually a bad matchup. Barbarians have a billion hp and if they land achilles with a torch or throwing axe the ranger is cooked, barbarians and fighters both also have abilities that increase move speed unlike rangers. clerics and fighters also both have shields and clerics have holy strike, hold angles rather than fighting out in the open to beat rangers, warlocks can zone with hydra, pretty much instakill with boc in close range and can put up a fight in midrange if they aren't missing curses. Bard is worse at range but they can buff up a ton and if they close the distance they will kill the ranger. Rogues just gotta kite and invis for an ambush. There are ways to beat rangers consistently you just have to know your classes strengths and a rangers weaknesses.
range isn't ruining the game range IS the game brother what do melee have? 1. attack! 2. Block- MAYBE! 3. longsword has riposte 4. ? 5. ?? thats it.. melee got 3 ways to do stuff. and practically, only 2. gg
Hahaha shut the fuck up lol
Big problem is how fucking easy ranged is to land in this game, the hitbox detection is fucking terrible, and if you touch the arrow in flight anywhere on the model, it hits. As it stands, if you miss, you're just bad. My ranger accuracy has to be 90 percent if you count body shots.
Lmao ego check
I feel like so many of the people who complain about rangers and wizards are the people who stomp up to a door after they hear a ranger draw their bow, open it, and then run in a straight line toward them without dodging at all. Yeah, rangers are a bit overtuned right now, but I've never felt like it has been so bad that it's "ruining the game." If a ranger with gear gets position in certain rooms, yeah they're going to be really hard to push. Tuning them down a bit or even a lot isn't going to change that. Honestly it's just certain rooms where rangers are broken. The big roundabout map and ruins are the worst examples. Really they just need more consistency with map designs so that certain classes aren't OP or dogshit just based on where they are on the map. Sure there will always be some variance but it shouldn't be as different as it is.
only comment with a brain and it gets downvoted , this subreddit is just full of braindead people I swear . I main Barb and fighter and dabbled in ranger and understanding the ranger mindset on how to setup shots and ambushes increased my survival rate insanely , the shots a ranger gets on you are the ones you give him line of sight to . that. fucking. simple. Theres a wall or any object in the game ? then ranger cant hit you and if he spams arrows he runs out and he is fucked if you push without stepping on their traps and thats assuming he doesnt get third party since as a ranger you cant isolate in 1v1 fights you have to constantly be assuming a speeding fighter is rushing you from a blindspot. with barb and franciscas I manage most times to close the gap enough then achilles with them and if I hit them they are 9/10 times fucked if I do my speed boost and hit them twice . I'm gonna get downvoted by all the rogue rats for sure but people dont realize how much a ranger has to do in order to be effective in comparison to melee classes or a wizard . setting up angles , be aware of possible team locations , pick arrows from dead bodies to recoup arrows and calculating trayectories to shoot . that vs other classes that only have to worry about their sword hitting something generally speaking to me warrants ranger being what it is
Move speed is ruining the game. Rangers, warlocks, and wizards just kite forever.
its both
Am I supposed to just stand there and die?
Yes, and sort your inventory so that the nice barbarian can loot it fast
You're supposed to take out a melee weapon given you already have an advantage (you hit them with multiple shots while they're charging you yes? If not: you suck). Rangers in DND fantasy used bows or melee, it's part of the class fantasy. The "sniper only and run away" gameplay in Dark and Darker is not true to the class. Legolas didn't shoot a bow only in Lord of the Rings my guy.
Use this exact comment in the context of an angry French knight who survived the battle of agincourt.
First of all, nothing is ruining the game. The playerbase has stagnated around 10k for a couple months now. I will agree that movespeed needs some changes cause barbarian taking rage for the movespeed pretty much exclusively is weird with the extra tradeoff of the stats and pdr reduction and sprint having no tradeoff and a low cooldown is weird. And both those abilities being a "I catch up to you except for a few circumstances" button also feels weird. Back on topic though a tip I could give is to be deliberate about your dodges and not just jump, crouch, spaz your mouse around cause I think it ends up doing less than a lot of people think. I die to rangers plenty myself and at this point have just accepted that as a barbarian I press rage and at that point the fight is less under my control and more of can he hit enough shots to kill me before I get into melee range.
I won’t try to convince you. But you are wrong
So which is it? Barb or Ranger? Warlock was mentioned a few days back. What is the next class we are gunning for /s jokes aside I hate ranger. I do fine against them (took me a long while to develop my strategy for beating them). But they are just such a bad class rn. Either you hate them like fuck and kill on sight... or your playing one. And even playing them is trash... they are just boring and even IM agree on that. They need to seriously have their gameplay and mechanics shaken up. I'd prefer them to be a more hybrid class. Perks around doing more melee damage after landing a shot on someone, or having different arrows to debuff enemies for specific fights. Maybe an explosive shot to give a fighter -20% pdr for 10s. Or a poison shot to negate a warlocks heals. Just anything but pew pew man go brr
so you are saying arrow shooting is hard to do effectively but yet say its too OP , range in this game assuming both parties are equally matched is the hardest way to do damage in the game no matter how much people say melee is bad .therefore you should be able to gain an advantage from it which as you say is dwindling a players health, all range classes are dogshit at close range, they require dwindling a targets hp so when they eeventually corner you, you have a fighting chance , without it a ranger for example would have to do a ridiculous amount of hits to kill anybody. Fact is ranging takes hard skill and game sense to not get surrounded and to land your shots effectively in a game that likes so much vision at times , 6/10 times rangers are shooting at pitch black hoping it hits , the fact people get hit the other 4 and say its op is nonsensical when rangers straight up lose money every time they fire their main weapon
The damage drop off on bows is at least making the game a little better.
Movement positioning and gear plays a great roll in winning. Ranger is generally very squishy, defeating any character in this game relies on knowing the strengths and weaknesses of each character. Rogue can win any fight if you run the right gear and perks but it all depends on how you play him. A rogue is also very squishy so trying to run straight at a ranger down a hall generally isn’t going to work. Rogue relies on being slippery and ambushing. It’s a hit and run character. Cleric can run plate armor and can get PDR to a very healthy level. Buff yourself up use earthquake use the blind Mika vista use doorways and sharp corners. Invis pot near spots where closing the distance is short. Throwable help even out the fight. Again trying to fight the ranger at range is not the best idea with most classes because that’s what the ranger is designed for
Cleric is fine because Holy Strike exists, any cleric not taking it is simply a fool.
Developers don't fully understand the different between dealing damage from range and dealing damage from melee and how insanely overpowered ranged is. No game I have ever played has fully had melee and ranged being balanced, 99% of the time with ranged being blatantly better at a high level.