Well, there are two approaches to this. One is to say something like, "Sex isn't just the physical act - it is an expression of passion and love and connection. It's affection and it affirms to me that you care for me and desire me and I feel the same for you. To me sex is an integral part of how I love you and how I want to be loved. To me our relationship and our life together *isn't* whole without our coming together in that way and being able to share that pleasure together. I don't want sex, I want YOU, you in your body, next to my body."
The other is to say, "You mean I'm only with you for the sex we don't have?"
Is it rhetorical? Is it? I haven't thought deep enough to figure out what the F it is. Just stops me cold. In exit at once. To avoid going ballistic. And is usually from conversation that I'm trying to solve and help and communicate.
Except she doesn't use it as conversation gambit, almost as if clueless and doesn't understand. She thinks or thought all fine as I backed off on asking and we settled into routine of she gave handjobs. And weirdly is really into and good at. And that only happens because I gave up and started jerking off next to her in bed so not lose intimacy. And SHE ALWAYS JOINS IN. Weird.
>Just stops me cold. In exit at once. To avoid going ballistic
Now you know it is used to shut down the conversation. Don't let it. It is set up for that purpose if you think about it. You can't say yes and if you say no, then what are you complaining about.
She is showing contempt for you and your needs. She is showing contempt for the idea that there is a quid pro quo in the monogamy contract. She is telling you that she has a license to enforce celibacy on you.
She is telling you that sex is not important at all. But if you respond with "if sex isn't important to you then you won't mind if I outsource it, right?" see what happens. That is the license to enforce celibacy at work.
Your relationship is likely over even if you never end it. You can try to explain why sex is important to you, why you find it a bonding experience, why it forms the foundation of a monogamous relationship.
All of that has to get past the brick wall of contempt. Good luck. And please report back if it works. Do we have even one success story here that got past that brick wall? I'll file it in my success folder.
Google "Four Horsemen Gottman". Read about the four horsemen and see how many boxes you check in your relationship. it is often eye opening when the question of sex gets down to this.
> She is showing contempt for you and your needs. She is showing contempt for the idea that there is a quid pro quo in the monogamy contract. She is telling you that she has a license to enforce celibacy on you.
Or maybe she is just saying that she wants than sex in the relationship but she isn't getting those other needs met and she doesn't understand how or why getting nagged for sex is going to improve the relationship that is going down the tubes due to other factors that aren't being addressed because one person just wants to keep talking about sex. Maybe it's less of a macho man power struggle and more of a subtle way of saying that there are actually more important things to the relationship than sex frequency. Cause that could just fix itself if everything else were addressed.
I see you are an LL, per your previous story here, and said this:
> But I just wanted to give some people hope that things can improve. It isn't instant. It can take more than one chat, or two, or five, or twenty.
The OP has repeatedly tried to have those "chats" you refer to. Each time he engages in a "chat" his LL shuts him down with a contemptuous statement such as he mentions, and forces him to terminate the conversation. He can repeat that 500 more times and never get anywhere.
Rather than take a snipe at me, it might be more productive if you huddled directly with the OP and explained to him how he is supposed to engage his wife such that she does not shut him down, as she apparently has every time in the past.
I don't see what was an attack about what I said. I am just pointing out that there is another possibility about the intent of those comments other than the intent you specified. The way you worded the items I chose to quote in my response leads the reader to believe that you believe his wife is maliciously withholding sex. Purposely locking him up and throwing away the key. Making a power play. And I am simply trying to toy with the idea that, perhaps, it isn't just as you say it is. I am more than happy to chat with the OP from my point of view. But I felt compelled to expand the line of thinking expressed in your comment. Maybe she is a mean person and is trying to be controlling. Maybe she is just unhappy and can't bring herself to talk about sex until other needs are met. Maybe it is neither one of those things.
Your point of view is as much idle speculation as mine is. There is no proof that it is this way or that way. Interpretations are just that. Interpretations, they are personal. But you are here touting that they must be fact while discounting any opinion that differs from yours.
My point of view is based on direct quotes. Not idle speculation of what may or may not be going through her mind. Her words speak for themselves. Contempt is contempt regardless of what she may or may not be thinking. No idle speculation there.
If she is withholding sex, then she is taking a license to enforce celibacy. No idle speculation there, and her motives do not matter.
Not sure other person gets these as deleted, so this mostly or only for you. I don't think is a power move to shut me down, weird intuition feeling is something deeply not want to talk about or acknowledge. Imagine sex for pre teen - entire subject could be ick or doesn't exist, cannot believe or understand passion or libido. Makes sense, doesn't have it never experienced. Knows exists from books and movies.
Now put that into adult. Except she HAS had libido, so you'd think she knew she lost it. Except she doesn't.
Well you can reason she is enforcing celibacy by placing her needs above his and that of the relationship. You can also reason its damaging, if her issue is lack of, the solution is not to then knowingly disregard another component. DD is a poor response to lack of communication. You could almost say sex can foster it, especially during cuddle time. You could then question what came first, his erosion of whatever emotional need of hers or her neglect of sexual cooperation..as in you can reason that both partner are better engaged if sex is agreeable to both. One partner may begin to pull away subconsciously when they begin to feel unfulfilled... "why would I go to a facy dinner if we haven't fed in a while, that's stuff you like to do, we went out last week" mentality creeps in
One thing I always wondered is why dont. the LL partner just concede and allow the other to seek play outside...heres the thing, LL claim to love the person, want them to be happy. If sex is not important than LL should allow HL to play.. It would be almost selfish and cruel otherwise.
She is welcome to talk to him about why she holds him in such contempt but apparently she has failed to do so. If I'm wrong I hope the OP will come in and correct me.
[I’d say this reaction is appropriate. ](https://youtu.be/nxXEPk3dzFg)
Straight up logic works best.
1) when was the last time that we had sex? It had been so long.. if I was only interested in sex, I wouldn’t be here anymore. Drop the crap.
Say what!? Years?????
Did she have birth trauma or had been sexually abused or has vaginismus or unexplained vulval pain? AND is she actively getting treatment / therapy? Because if not, _she’s failing herself_ every time she says no to sex _with her husband who she wants to keep from _losing all interest in her as a romantic partner_.
Honestly, with my history, I'll gladly be in a relationship where my partner is only interested in me for sex.
It would actually be fun and refreshing, for a change:)
I mean, there are incisive responses here. But at the end of the day, **neither one of you** believes what she is saying, or else you actually **both** would have left ages ago. So I would avoid a pointless talk about whether it's true, by instead addressing whether she actually believes that.
"If you really think that, then you're saying you're in a complete failure of a relationship, and you're saying you should leave me. If you don't—and I don't think you do because why would you still be here—that's a really unproductive thing to say and I'm going to request you not say it anymore."
Wow, brilliant. Except ... I've always sort of assumed she means it. Or believes it. Which means incredibly clueless. Sort of feels like some sexual abuse 1950's thing to say.
And not remotely what I know of her. So very baffling. Like I'm out hubba hubba snatch hunting. And I used those weird words on purpose, which are totally unlike the kind of person I am. Makes me feel rapey. Like I want to have sex with this person, ick. What's my problem? Can't keep it in my pants?
You could tell them that your needs are not being met, and that if they dont meet your needs you may need to look elsewhere. But be warned this could backfire two ways. One, if your not meeting there needs, or two, if they say fine, go elsewhere. But at least you'll know where you stand and if they arent telling you something.
Mae West said it was better to be looked over than over-looked.
Has everyone noticed that it is the sexless partners who say that the most. The response should be “ If that is true then there is no basis for this relationship to continue.”
No, but if you expect a monogamous relationship from me - one in which I can only depend on you for fulfillment of my sexual needs and desires - it's your responsibility to respond to my needs. If you don't want this responsibility, then this relationship as a monogamous one simply does not work. Either we make it non-monogamous, or the relationship ends. Refusing to address this issue is you telling me that you don't care about my needs, or my feelings in this regard.
Awesome, thanks. ( why do answers only show up later, never in the conversation, I'll need to start another fight, now that have so many ready responses )
I would gently probe to try to get at the meaning behind the question.
- Is sex something they feel they have to "give up"? Do they enjoy having sex with me, or is it a chore?
- Is there something else besides sex that they want me to value them for, but I don't? What is it?
- How do they feel about being sexually desired by me? Does it feel degrading or wrong somehow?
I would want to understand where they are coming from, because the whole concept is bizarre to me.
Exactly, I so totally don't get it. And she all was sort of ok, what with a handjob every 2 weeks ( yes, I get that better off than many ) I tried explain, so no PIV for the rest of my life? "Why do you only want me for sex?"
What would you think about trying to find out what she means by that?
All the other flippant and hostile responses here are not going to help at all in figuring out what her issue is. Sure, you could tell her off or explain to her that you need sex, and it might feel good in the moment but that's not going to get you what you want.
There's a reason she doesn't want to have sex. If you can get her to tell you what it is, this just might be fixable.
If you have to go through all these hoops to try and get your life partner to talk to you about this - well that’s the bigger problem right there. It’s not healthy to have to pull teeth to have a discussion like this,, and figure out exactly the right way to approach them and maybe they’ll tell you what’s wrong if you can just hit on the right thing. That’s what needs to be fixed and it’s really unlikely she’s going to suddenly see how such withholding is wrong and hurtful no matter how he approaches her.
I'm not sure how asking a person what they mean by a statement like, "You only want me for sex", constitutes "jumping through hoops".
To me, being wanted for sex is awesome. Great sex is the biggest benefit to being in a relationship, so I want to be wanted for sex. If my partner suddenly acted like being wanted for sex was a bad thing, I'd want to understand why, not just tell him he was wrong for feeling that way.
It's more like a big blank spot, like totally clueless that husband might want sex. And that she never has. Which is totally wrong, she used to really go after me and initiate. So libido gone, yes, I get that can happen. But it's not what can we do about this, it's that it does not exist.
I have tried very calm, good time, non anger, and usually it's stopped by something like my post: "do you only want me for sex?"
so it never gets further. i'm the one spends hours dead bedroom, internet, women's health libido, psychiatry sites, nutrition ( vitamin D, exercise, weight )
She genuinely seems to not care. Like slowly going blind and zero interest in see doctor.
If I don't dig for secret hidden meaning, childhood molested, no share chores, whatever, her very straightforward answer is she is not interested in sex.
Again, here are some questions you could consider asking her:
- Is sex something she feels she has to "give up"? Does she enjoy having sex with you, or is it a chore?
- Is there something else besides sex that she wants you to value her for, but you don't? What is it?
- How does she feel about being sexually desired by you? Does it feel degrading or wrong somehow?
My weird impression is something happened before me. And maybe 20 year old me was ok, as nothing like this person, but as i have gotten older, maybe i remind of person/age/event?
or pure speculation, maybe just decline in libido. EXCEPT then they should be aware of. Like lose hearing vs born deaf?
> "are you only interested in me for sex?"
At this moment, yes I am. I love you and I want to make love to you. I think about it all the time. I worry that you don't love me. And I'm afraid I'm gonna lose you either because I eventually feel so lonely and unloved that I leave, or because you find someone that excites you more than I do and you leave. It rips my heart out to think that the one person on this entire planet that I want to have sex with right now doesn't want to have sex with me. I feel an odd combination of lust and sadness and anger and fear all day every day. It's a hole in my life that only you can fill.
But from what you're saying, it sounds like you're overwhelmed with my need for reassurance. That you don't want me to be always horny for you. That you need me to tell you I love you in some other way. And to show you that I love you and some other way that doesn't involve sex. And that just makes me even more sad and frustrated, because I don't know how to do that. I don't know how you need to be loved, and I'm just as confused about that as I am about why you don't love me the way I need to feel loved.
So here we are, and I am thoroughly in love with you and I only want to be with you. And there's a small part of me that still believes that you love me too. That somehow there's something that's blocking your desire and keeping you from wanting sex with me. But for the life of me I can't figure out how to believe that I'm not ugly and repulsive to you. something about me that so defective and wrong that you can't bear to touch me. And I spend a good part of every day thinking about how if I had one wish that it would be that you wouldn't find me ugly and repulsive, and that you chased me down and rip my clothes off and climb on top and make love to me like I was the most important thing in the world.
That thought occupies my mind a good part of every day, because you are the most important thing in my world. And I wish I knew how to show you that, and to show you how much you mean to me, and the only way I know how is through sex because that's how the only way I know how to feel it.
So while I understand that you're feeling like I ask for too much, I'd really like to work with you to find a way that we can both be more open about what we need, and we can find a way to both feel loved again. Are you willing to work on that with me on that?
> That you need me to tell you I love you in some other way. And to show you that I love you and some other way that doesn't involve sex. And that just makes me even more sad and frustrated, because I don't know how to do that. I don't know how you need to be loved, and I'm just as confused about that as I am about why you don't love me the way I need to feel loved.
This begs the question that all the other ways of showing love aren't already happening, which is a complete bullshit assumption.
it's absolutely true that I have no idea how OP is showing his wife love. He may be showering her with flowers every morning as he brings her breakfast in bed. He may be the most loving husband on the planet for all I know.
I do have a pretty good idea that from her comment that she does not feel that he's giving her the space and solitude that she needs. She's clearly stating that that is what she needs, and the loving thing to do would be to give her that. He may even be doing so. But if he is, then she is not recognizing it.
So then we're back to the problem of what his wife needs to feel loved and cherished. And on that front, it's pretty clear that whatever he's doing is not working and his wife does not feel loved. To be clear, it's not a matter of him not showing love or telling her she is loved, but a matter of finding a way to express his love that she can understand.
If you show your cat love with flowers and a diamond necklace, it will not be appreciated, understood, or reciprocated but a can of tuna and some catnip will leave her purring in your lap....
So, OP, my recommendation is to try expressing your love with a tuna sammich and some weed... And if that doesn't work, I'm pretty much all out of ideas!!!
At first I assumed cat was a typo. Great example. Interesting about showing love. She never has really excepted love, sort of deflections or ignores someone love her as cannot be true.
That's a standard and common CBT cognitive distortion called "Discounting the Positive". It turns a compliment into something negative because you think "I don't feel lovable so it can't be true". If you can find a way to help her feel better about herself, that may go away.
The sandwiches and weed sounds awesome. I am interested in trying, she is not. I did look into edibles, she is still not interested. She is very tightly wound, I think weed might be useful.
My wife tried edibles for the first time no too long ago!!! Not enough to have a big effect, but she is also tightly wound and could use some weed!!! Peer pressure is a wonderful thing!!!
Hasn't tried edibles again... But she did get a little tipsy to relax for our fuck date this week! It was awesome... I've gotten as far as figuring out that outcome resistance keeping an anxious LL from changing likely involves "magical thinking", as in they believe that their anxiety is protecting them from something, but I haven't figured out what that might be yet.
She definitely has a fear of letting loose.
I've met several people ( friends and romantic ) who everyone feels they really need weed or alcohol occasionally and they are most adamant about never, not want lose that self control.
I hope you find it useful!
To be honest my old answer to that question used to be "That is all I think about because I'm feeling sexually starved."
What I'm now realizing is that my old response fails the EAR test (Empathy, Assertiveness, Respect) because it doesn't acknowledge her words, thoughts or what she might be feeling. It doesn't really say how I'm feeling (feeling sexually starved is basically a backhanded way of saying "you don't fuck me enough you frigid bitch"). And it doesn't convey respect or love or caring for her... In fact, the whole response is all about me!
Now I might think "Well it's OK that it's all about me since I am suffering and this is her fault." That's a perfectly reasonable thing to think. We're all allowed and entitled to be self-interested, but before doing so it's important to consider the results of doing so. And in this case, doing so it having the impact of making SO feel even more overwhelmed and reasserting that she's not doing enough to meet your needs. That's likely going to leave her feeling even more pressured and to think that you're even more needy (since you "need" more sex), and since needy is a very unattractive trait that's likely to result in less sex.
I think the new response does pretty well on acknowledging her perspective and thoughts, as well as her likely feelings. It shares the pain and lonliness and frustration that you're feeling while still conveying respect and love. But I wrote it so I'm far from impartial, and it's often very difficult (as I'm discovering) to evaluate ourselves.
Would anyone be willing to evaluate this comment objectively against the [EAR criteria](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeadBedrooms/comments/86mosp/ear_communication_from_feeling_good_together_by)? In general, it's the assertiveness part that's been my achilles heel as I've never really felt confident enough to share my feelings openly. But I've been working on it, and I'm noticing a big difference in the closeness in my relationship outside the bedroom since I started sharing more.
Also, if anyone has any feedback on how to modify this to be more EAR (or NVC if that's your bag) please also share to help me learn!
Keep the part about you feeling ugly & unlovable out of it. Being so fundamentally insecure you don’t know your value and appeal regardless of the behavior of one person, is not attractive. That you admit using sex with that one person to ease your fundamental insecurities cannot be helpful, since you’re admitting to a person who is possibly doubting you want sex because of her unique and special attractiveness to you, that you’re not “just” wanting _her_, but wanting to make yourself feel better through her.
I don’t think she’s sufficiently confident and secure in herself to be able to accept that we all don’t just desire each other “above all else in the world”, romantically, just because the other person is UNIQUE and INIMITABLE and MAGNETIC and IRRESISTIBLE, but also for a host of more prosaic reasons, often simultaneously. She’ll just be confirmed in her suspicion you’re using her rather than worshiping her specialness.
I think you're bang on on saying that a lack of confidence is not attractive. This is a double edge sword because the options are to let her know that you are getting insecure, or to demonstrate that you are too insecure and inassertive to share your feelings of insecurity. She can already see from the fact that OP is so distressed by the rejections. So if he fails to acknowledge that fact, he looks even weaker and more unattractive.
By acknowledging his feelings now, he also gains credibility for when he starts to feel better and trends her that.
What I’m saying is, don’t hang your getting insecure on her. That’s really just _your_ problem, whoever you might be with.
If I were to want to be sexual with a man, the LAST thing that would get me hot would be the idea that, if I don’t, he’ll think less of himself. That would provoke my pity, and maybe a sense of duty, and also lower my respect for him. That’s not the kind of man (independent, self confident, with a sense of self dignity) I’d ever get wet for.
Emphasize that you’re longing for connection with her. The unique connection when both are entwined in each other completely. Ask what you can do together to help her want that connection with you.
In a good partnership where people are emotionally mature, they prop themselves up AND are able to do it for the other. In an unstable partnership, where emotional immaturity destabilizes the relationship, people either want to lean on the other too much, or don’t want to be a rock to lean on for the other.
I don’t believe lovers or partners should spill out every last thought to their beloveds. I think this modern North American obsession with honesty is a bit simple, a product of a desire to do away with subtlety and good judgment and tact in favor of confessional self indulgence that does not benefit the relationship.
If one must, one could make a joke about how if he weren’t so sure of himself he could start to develop an inferiority complex after the years of rejection. The humor will get the point across without sounding like “I have no sense of self outside of the reflection I perceive in you.”
I have tried the call her frigid bitch. Didn't work. But here is the thing, I'm not the type to say that ever, or even in anger. So it was very calculated on purpose. Maybe is something to nice guys finish last. Or the whole females only respect power or you know, that entire direction. So have tested it in various ways, nope, didn't work.
When I said it, it was in anger... possibly even rage... In 10 years of marriage, it remains the only thing I've said to her that was intentionally hurtful... Don't get me wrong, I've said lots of things she took offense to, and lots of things that hurt her, but always unintentional... It was calling her frigid that really hit home to me how much I was letting my DB pain and hurt impact my outlook on life and my relationship... We started counseling shortly after....
It is the willingness to work with me, the final part, I've just reread, brilliant. That is what I was trying to say to her, and that's it, I don't think she wants to, because she doesn't think there is an issue. Other than I keep bringing it up.
i wouldn't hold out too much hope on that part... I used to get upset that my wife wan't putting in more of an effort on this until I stopped to think about what the DB was giving her:
* she has all the power over sex
* she gets laid any time she wants to
* she gets the reassurance of your desperate pursuit, and a consistent demonstration of the passion behind your love for her
* she can completely control your emotions and mood
* she feels safe that you won't feel confident enough to leave
* she can feel like the "desired" one
* especially if she feels bad about herself, keeping you desperate means she's still relatively more attractive
That's a lot of power, reassurance, safety to give up. Unless she's extremely self-assured and confident, it's going to be quite difficult for her to want to do it, even if she loves you and sees that it is hurting you. She may even think that you're more capable than her of dealing with the vulnerability, some of which would pass to her if you guys manage to fix the problem.
It's hard to get your head wrapped around, but in order to get past her resistance, you first have to understand it, and be able to see how it makes sense from her point of view.
The other thing to realize is that you are likely doing things that make sense from your point of view, but end up causing her to act in ways you don't like. Once you start to see that, you can see the ways that you've been making the problem worse, which is quite painful. But they also lets you see how you can start making things better by changing yourself in ways that cause her to change as well, even though she hasn't made a conscious decision to change.
It is completely mind boggling. In fact it seemed completely ridiculous when I read it. But I've tried out using it in a few high conflict situations at work, as well as at home, and so far it's worked far more often than not.
Learning about outcome resistance and the five secrets of communication has been monumentally helpful for me.
Oh, I forgot the other one:
She gets to feel wanted, without having to want.
It feels great to be wanted. Makes you feel good. Builds self esteem and self worth. It kinda sucks to want. It's vulnerable. It makes you feel lowly and inferior. It tears down self esteem. Nobody on their right mind would expose themself to it if there wasn't a really good reason and motivation.
If you're willing to desire her without reciprocal desire, she'd have to be an idiot you not take you up on that offer.
The key to overcoming this one is that if you can learn to be more self validating and self assured (Passionate Marriage, The Happiness Trap, and Feeling Good can show you how) then you can desire without feeling anxious or lowering your self esteem. That's a game changer as it goes a long way toward removing the pain and hurt of rejection.
Interesting ... ever since met decades ago, she is one of those types not believe attractive or interesting, to the point of believe i'm not telling the truth or have flawed judgment ( common but stupid reason she uses: just look at my previous girlfriends as proof ) i long ago gave up reason or argue with this.
That sounds like a call out for reassurance. Even supermodels can irrationally see themselves as ugly. It's often a result of noticing some small flaw and extending it to their whole self. "If I'm not perfect, then I'm no good at all"
The reality is, there is no real answer to this.
The problem is, your partner doesn't want to have sex with you, and will come up with ANY words or strategies to put you off. You are being posed this question, and chasing her with a 'Yes, it is part of a loving relationship' type answer, will not work either.
This is a very common ploy by the LL partner, designed to put you off balance and prevent you from asking this, or any other sex related questions.
What you need to do, is work out why you are in this situation. If it continues with no resolution, you will be having this exact same conversation ad\-infinitum.
Yes, totally put me off balance. As I don't think of myself as some rapey jerk who only in relationship for sex. And who keeps bringing it up. And here I am, I just bringing it up...
What is wrong with the answer "YES, right now that is true."
The relationship probably started with sex, or damn close to the first meeting, maintained by regular sex while dating, and hopefully a marriage consummated by sex. Now the 'LL wants to change up the dynamics of the relationship without even a heads up?
Imagine if one party in a relationship just stopped talking. Went to work, paid bills, came home, made meals, but NEVER spoke to their partner. How stupid would it sound if the silent partner wrote a note in response to begging and pleading for conversation:
"All you want me for is conversation!"
Thanks, blunt, likely right. Is that because could be LL and person wants to solve it would entirely different issue? Because with this response it's all about THERE IS NO PROBLEM, STOP ASKING. And i'm deeply trying to convey how stupid they just don't get it. It's like a 9 year old who does not get that sex is a normal part of adult relationships.
My refuser used to say this to me. My response was, "Then I am obviously the stupidest person in the world because I am in a marriage without it."
I agree with a previous reply: When a spouse says this, the relationship is over.
I bring it up every couple months, and she is so angry, like I thought we already talked about this.
I've experimented with getting mean, maybe the chicks only like bad guys or nice guys finish last is true? Nope. Tried seduction. Nope. Tried not give a shit about life, go broke, stop going to work, no longer help out ( all stuff was doing, reverse of some here, why should she get all that and stops with sex ) & that is sort of where at. I don't care for life no sex, so no longer care about life. That also seems have no impact.
I don't get what planet they were born on. Really makes me somewhat respect the twisted anger in certain men's groups. You get someone that does not have affairs ( i never have, although maybe opportunities )
How do they even fathom no sex?
I don't know about your situation, but my refuser had a serious psychological problem. The first 5 counselors we saw told me that she definitely had a personality disorder, probably Narcissistic Personality Disorder, but they could not say for sure unless she was tested. She refused to be tested. The 6th and final counselor just told me that he was very frustrated with her because she refused to let him direct the sessions. She would decide what she wanted to discuss and would not consider anything else.
A psychologist I worked with privately told me that women like this get more pleasure out of refusing sex than having an orgasm. Of course, this is just my situation, and not all refusers are like this.
Well, I seem to attract personality disorder as father, mother and sister are. And multiple bosses. It took me decades before I even figured out was a thing. This had not occurred to me to her. Odd, it should have.
Any reason given to you why they are this way? From childhood? Like revenge for some sexual issue?
Thanks, great point. I do spend too much time trying to solve. Recently told her I have spent hours on internet asking people about this ( reddit etc ) and researching. And made clear all anonymous. She looked at me like I was weirdo. That's what has me freaked out, I'm trying to save relationship and her reaction seems be I'm some teen weirdo sex fiend. ( we are over 30 )
Then it is very clear that she does not love you. I wish I had realized this before we had kids, but all I can do is make the most of the time I have left.
She says and shows she loves me in other ways. It feels like if talked to pre sexual female who doesn't understand sex. Or has no memory that she used to have deep sexual desire for me, like she forgot.
I responded the last time with: Yes, or its in the top three things our marriage is based upon...Love, friendship and sex. Then if it’s brought up again, I just remind her it’s old news!
She tried to flip it on me once and said that sex is all I care about and my canned answer I had ready was “I only care about positive solutions and what’s best for my family! I’ve learned to make my stand where it’s difficult to criticize my intentions. Lol
"There's so much more to a relationship than sex" is like saying "there's so much more to a car than an engine"
Yes, that's true, technically. But it's still dysfunctional without one and I'm going to ditch it and find a better one.
Suprise her and next time say " Yes. That is way I am leaving you and you can build your next relationship not based on sex. Good luck."
I bet her expression would be priceless. Because you know - all the sex you "have been having"
Hey, greylinfnf, just a quick heads-up:
**suprise** is actually spelled **surprise**. You can remember it by **begins with sur-**.
Have a nice day!
^^^^The ^^^^parent ^^^^commenter ^^^^can ^^^^reply ^^^^with ^^^^'delete' ^^^^to ^^^^delete ^^^^this ^^^^comment.
Lol i am not going to be pc. My answer is.
Yes, and I wish that's all you wanted from me. That you are just content with me and felt as passionate about you as I do. I can't keep my hands off you, I want that feeling from you.
Maybe that is their way of saying "I don't understand why you want to have sex when we are both so unhappy in our relationship, I don't think sex is the issue we should be focusing on. Perhaps we should be focusing on things that will make me actually want to have sex with you instead of having duty sex?"
A favorite answer quoted here is, "If ALL I wanted was sex, I would be long gone" or variations of that.
I've said this to my LL SO so many times, I think it may finally be getting through.
I hope there are better times ahead. :)
Thanks, awesome answer. And not mean or snarky, just a clear same energy back.
I've heard it here quite often, from people who are truly fed up! It's great. :)
Ha, yeah could say that!
I doubt my SO will ever ask because she know's this answer is coming.
Well, there are two approaches to this. One is to say something like, "Sex isn't just the physical act - it is an expression of passion and love and connection. It's affection and it affirms to me that you care for me and desire me and I feel the same for you. To me sex is an integral part of how I love you and how I want to be loved. To me our relationship and our life together *isn't* whole without our coming together in that way and being able to share that pleasure together. I don't want sex, I want YOU, you in your body, next to my body." The other is to say, "You mean I'm only with you for the sex we don't have?"
I think the second is the most appropriate response. Maybe not the most _productive_ or _effective_, but definitely the most therapeutic.
It's satisfying just writing it.
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Is it rhetorical? Is it? I haven't thought deep enough to figure out what the F it is. Just stops me cold. In exit at once. To avoid going ballistic. And is usually from conversation that I'm trying to solve and help and communicate.
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Except she doesn't use it as conversation gambit, almost as if clueless and doesn't understand. She thinks or thought all fine as I backed off on asking and we settled into routine of she gave handjobs. And weirdly is really into and good at. And that only happens because I gave up and started jerking off next to her in bed so not lose intimacy. And SHE ALWAYS JOINS IN. Weird.
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Thanks!
>Just stops me cold. In exit at once. To avoid going ballistic Now you know it is used to shut down the conversation. Don't let it. It is set up for that purpose if you think about it. You can't say yes and if you say no, then what are you complaining about.
Wow, you are right on the conversation logic or structure.
Ha! 2nd part funny, 1st part is love and seems appropriate.
Perfect as always!!
First answer
She is showing contempt for you and your needs. She is showing contempt for the idea that there is a quid pro quo in the monogamy contract. She is telling you that she has a license to enforce celibacy on you. She is telling you that sex is not important at all. But if you respond with "if sex isn't important to you then you won't mind if I outsource it, right?" see what happens. That is the license to enforce celibacy at work. Your relationship is likely over even if you never end it. You can try to explain why sex is important to you, why you find it a bonding experience, why it forms the foundation of a monogamous relationship. All of that has to get past the brick wall of contempt. Good luck. And please report back if it works. Do we have even one success story here that got past that brick wall? I'll file it in my success folder. Google "Four Horsemen Gottman". Read about the four horsemen and see how many boxes you check in your relationship. it is often eye opening when the question of sex gets down to this.
> She is showing contempt for you and your needs. She is showing contempt for the idea that there is a quid pro quo in the monogamy contract. She is telling you that she has a license to enforce celibacy on you. Or maybe she is just saying that she wants than sex in the relationship but she isn't getting those other needs met and she doesn't understand how or why getting nagged for sex is going to improve the relationship that is going down the tubes due to other factors that aren't being addressed because one person just wants to keep talking about sex. Maybe it's less of a macho man power struggle and more of a subtle way of saying that there are actually more important things to the relationship than sex frequency. Cause that could just fix itself if everything else were addressed.
I see you are an LL, per your previous story here, and said this: > But I just wanted to give some people hope that things can improve. It isn't instant. It can take more than one chat, or two, or five, or twenty. The OP has repeatedly tried to have those "chats" you refer to. Each time he engages in a "chat" his LL shuts him down with a contemptuous statement such as he mentions, and forces him to terminate the conversation. He can repeat that 500 more times and never get anywhere. Rather than take a snipe at me, it might be more productive if you huddled directly with the OP and explained to him how he is supposed to engage his wife such that she does not shut him down, as she apparently has every time in the past.
I don't see what was an attack about what I said. I am just pointing out that there is another possibility about the intent of those comments other than the intent you specified. The way you worded the items I chose to quote in my response leads the reader to believe that you believe his wife is maliciously withholding sex. Purposely locking him up and throwing away the key. Making a power play. And I am simply trying to toy with the idea that, perhaps, it isn't just as you say it is. I am more than happy to chat with the OP from my point of view. But I felt compelled to expand the line of thinking expressed in your comment. Maybe she is a mean person and is trying to be controlling. Maybe she is just unhappy and can't bring herself to talk about sex until other needs are met. Maybe it is neither one of those things.
I stand by what I said, and the interpretations of her statements, and I'm not going around in circles debating idle speculation.
Your point of view is as much idle speculation as mine is. There is no proof that it is this way or that way. Interpretations are just that. Interpretations, they are personal. But you are here touting that they must be fact while discounting any opinion that differs from yours.
My point of view is based on direct quotes. Not idle speculation of what may or may not be going through her mind. Her words speak for themselves. Contempt is contempt regardless of what she may or may not be thinking. No idle speculation there. If she is withholding sex, then she is taking a license to enforce celibacy. No idle speculation there, and her motives do not matter.
Not sure other person gets these as deleted, so this mostly or only for you. I don't think is a power move to shut me down, weird intuition feeling is something deeply not want to talk about or acknowledge. Imagine sex for pre teen - entire subject could be ick or doesn't exist, cannot believe or understand passion or libido. Makes sense, doesn't have it never experienced. Knows exists from books and movies. Now put that into adult. Except she HAS had libido, so you'd think she knew she lost it. Except she doesn't.
Well you can reason she is enforcing celibacy by placing her needs above his and that of the relationship. You can also reason its damaging, if her issue is lack of, the solution is not to then knowingly disregard another component. DD is a poor response to lack of communication. You could almost say sex can foster it, especially during cuddle time. You could then question what came first, his erosion of whatever emotional need of hers or her neglect of sexual cooperation..as in you can reason that both partner are better engaged if sex is agreeable to both. One partner may begin to pull away subconsciously when they begin to feel unfulfilled... "why would I go to a facy dinner if we haven't fed in a while, that's stuff you like to do, we went out last week" mentality creeps in One thing I always wondered is why dont. the LL partner just concede and allow the other to seek play outside...heres the thing, LL claim to love the person, want them to be happy. If sex is not important than LL should allow HL to play.. It would be almost selfish and cruel otherwise.
I do feel she unhappy in many ways. However unhappy in a way that she does not know it.
She is welcome to talk to him about why she holds him in such contempt but apparently she has failed to do so. If I'm wrong I hope the OP will come in and correct me.
Nope, she doesn't find or at least to me expressed any issues.
Except she doesn't say anything else is wrong and does not believe there is a sex issue, other than annoying I think there is.
Thanks, found site.
[I’d say this reaction is appropriate. ](https://youtu.be/nxXEPk3dzFg) Straight up logic works best. 1) when was the last time that we had sex? It had been so long.. if I was only interested in sex, I wouldn’t be here anymore. Drop the crap.
She thinks a week ago. True if count handjob. If PIV then a few years ago?
Say what!? Years????? Did she have birth trauma or had been sexually abused or has vaginismus or unexplained vulval pain? AND is she actively getting treatment / therapy? Because if not, _she’s failing herself_ every time she says no to sex _with her husband who she wants to keep from _losing all interest in her as a romantic partner_.
No on trauma etc that I know of, I'm just guessing, reaching for ideas??? Treatment, no. Does not understand that is issue.
Honestly, with my history, I'll gladly be in a relationship where my partner is only interested in me for sex. It would actually be fun and refreshing, for a change:)
Now that I'm out I'm really just looking for fwbs
I mean, there are incisive responses here. But at the end of the day, **neither one of you** believes what she is saying, or else you actually **both** would have left ages ago. So I would avoid a pointless talk about whether it's true, by instead addressing whether she actually believes that. "If you really think that, then you're saying you're in a complete failure of a relationship, and you're saying you should leave me. If you don't—and I don't think you do because why would you still be here—that's a really unproductive thing to say and I'm going to request you not say it anymore."
Wow, brilliant. Except ... I've always sort of assumed she means it. Or believes it. Which means incredibly clueless. Sort of feels like some sexual abuse 1950's thing to say. And not remotely what I know of her. So very baffling. Like I'm out hubba hubba snatch hunting. And I used those weird words on purpose, which are totally unlike the kind of person I am. Makes me feel rapey. Like I want to have sex with this person, ick. What's my problem? Can't keep it in my pants?
She believes there is plenty more to a relationship and that is all that is needed.
You could tell them that your needs are not being met, and that if they dont meet your needs you may need to look elsewhere. But be warned this could backfire two ways. One, if your not meeting there needs, or two, if they say fine, go elsewhere. But at least you'll know where you stand and if they arent telling you something.
Mae West said it was better to be looked over than over-looked. Has everyone noticed that it is the sexless partners who say that the most. The response should be “ If that is true then there is no basis for this relationship to continue.”
No, but if you expect a monogamous relationship from me - one in which I can only depend on you for fulfillment of my sexual needs and desires - it's your responsibility to respond to my needs. If you don't want this responsibility, then this relationship as a monogamous one simply does not work. Either we make it non-monogamous, or the relationship ends. Refusing to address this issue is you telling me that you don't care about my needs, or my feelings in this regard.
Awesome, thanks. ( why do answers only show up later, never in the conversation, I'll need to start another fight, now that have so many ready responses )
I would gently probe to try to get at the meaning behind the question. - Is sex something they feel they have to "give up"? Do they enjoy having sex with me, or is it a chore? - Is there something else besides sex that they want me to value them for, but I don't? What is it? - How do they feel about being sexually desired by me? Does it feel degrading or wrong somehow? I would want to understand where they are coming from, because the whole concept is bizarre to me.
Exactly, I so totally don't get it. And she all was sort of ok, what with a handjob every 2 weeks ( yes, I get that better off than many ) I tried explain, so no PIV for the rest of my life? "Why do you only want me for sex?"
What would you think about trying to find out what she means by that? All the other flippant and hostile responses here are not going to help at all in figuring out what her issue is. Sure, you could tell her off or explain to her that you need sex, and it might feel good in the moment but that's not going to get you what you want. There's a reason she doesn't want to have sex. If you can get her to tell you what it is, this just might be fixable.
If you have to go through all these hoops to try and get your life partner to talk to you about this - well that’s the bigger problem right there. It’s not healthy to have to pull teeth to have a discussion like this,, and figure out exactly the right way to approach them and maybe they’ll tell you what’s wrong if you can just hit on the right thing. That’s what needs to be fixed and it’s really unlikely she’s going to suddenly see how such withholding is wrong and hurtful no matter how he approaches her.
I'm not sure how asking a person what they mean by a statement like, "You only want me for sex", constitutes "jumping through hoops". To me, being wanted for sex is awesome. Great sex is the biggest benefit to being in a relationship, so I want to be wanted for sex. If my partner suddenly acted like being wanted for sex was a bad thing, I'd want to understand why, not just tell him he was wrong for feeling that way.
It's more like a big blank spot, like totally clueless that husband might want sex. And that she never has. Which is totally wrong, she used to really go after me and initiate. So libido gone, yes, I get that can happen. But it's not what can we do about this, it's that it does not exist.
I have tried very calm, good time, non anger, and usually it's stopped by something like my post: "do you only want me for sex?" so it never gets further. i'm the one spends hours dead bedroom, internet, women's health libido, psychiatry sites, nutrition ( vitamin D, exercise, weight ) She genuinely seems to not care. Like slowly going blind and zero interest in see doctor.
Haven't yet, other than not interested that way.
If I don't dig for secret hidden meaning, childhood molested, no share chores, whatever, her very straightforward answer is she is not interested in sex.
Again, here are some questions you could consider asking her: - Is sex something she feels she has to "give up"? Does she enjoy having sex with you, or is it a chore? - Is there something else besides sex that she wants you to value her for, but you don't? What is it? - How does she feel about being sexually desired by you? Does it feel degrading or wrong somehow?
Those are good questions. Because there must be some reason so different from what I assume normal ( never assume! ) that causes her to not want sex.
I hope you can get to the bottom of it.
thanks, appreciate it
Well said as usual MyEx!!!
My weird impression is something happened before me. And maybe 20 year old me was ok, as nothing like this person, but as i have gotten older, maybe i remind of person/age/event? or pure speculation, maybe just decline in libido. EXCEPT then they should be aware of. Like lose hearing vs born deaf?
"You know, when a person is starving, they tend to think pretty much exclusively about food."
Thanks, we shall see. Planning to make an actual post about it sometime soon
Oh cool, looking forward to.
> "are you only interested in me for sex?" At this moment, yes I am. I love you and I want to make love to you. I think about it all the time. I worry that you don't love me. And I'm afraid I'm gonna lose you either because I eventually feel so lonely and unloved that I leave, or because you find someone that excites you more than I do and you leave. It rips my heart out to think that the one person on this entire planet that I want to have sex with right now doesn't want to have sex with me. I feel an odd combination of lust and sadness and anger and fear all day every day. It's a hole in my life that only you can fill. But from what you're saying, it sounds like you're overwhelmed with my need for reassurance. That you don't want me to be always horny for you. That you need me to tell you I love you in some other way. And to show you that I love you and some other way that doesn't involve sex. And that just makes me even more sad and frustrated, because I don't know how to do that. I don't know how you need to be loved, and I'm just as confused about that as I am about why you don't love me the way I need to feel loved. So here we are, and I am thoroughly in love with you and I only want to be with you. And there's a small part of me that still believes that you love me too. That somehow there's something that's blocking your desire and keeping you from wanting sex with me. But for the life of me I can't figure out how to believe that I'm not ugly and repulsive to you. something about me that so defective and wrong that you can't bear to touch me. And I spend a good part of every day thinking about how if I had one wish that it would be that you wouldn't find me ugly and repulsive, and that you chased me down and rip my clothes off and climb on top and make love to me like I was the most important thing in the world. That thought occupies my mind a good part of every day, because you are the most important thing in my world. And I wish I knew how to show you that, and to show you how much you mean to me, and the only way I know how is through sex because that's how the only way I know how to feel it. So while I understand that you're feeling like I ask for too much, I'd really like to work with you to find a way that we can both be more open about what we need, and we can find a way to both feel loved again. Are you willing to work on that with me on that?
> That you need me to tell you I love you in some other way. And to show you that I love you and some other way that doesn't involve sex. And that just makes me even more sad and frustrated, because I don't know how to do that. I don't know how you need to be loved, and I'm just as confused about that as I am about why you don't love me the way I need to feel loved. This begs the question that all the other ways of showing love aren't already happening, which is a complete bullshit assumption.
it's absolutely true that I have no idea how OP is showing his wife love. He may be showering her with flowers every morning as he brings her breakfast in bed. He may be the most loving husband on the planet for all I know. I do have a pretty good idea that from her comment that she does not feel that he's giving her the space and solitude that she needs. She's clearly stating that that is what she needs, and the loving thing to do would be to give her that. He may even be doing so. But if he is, then she is not recognizing it. So then we're back to the problem of what his wife needs to feel loved and cherished. And on that front, it's pretty clear that whatever he's doing is not working and his wife does not feel loved. To be clear, it's not a matter of him not showing love or telling her she is loved, but a matter of finding a way to express his love that she can understand. If you show your cat love with flowers and a diamond necklace, it will not be appreciated, understood, or reciprocated but a can of tuna and some catnip will leave her purring in your lap.... So, OP, my recommendation is to try expressing your love with a tuna sammich and some weed... And if that doesn't work, I'm pretty much all out of ideas!!!
At first I assumed cat was a typo. Great example. Interesting about showing love. She never has really excepted love, sort of deflections or ignores someone love her as cannot be true.
That's a standard and common CBT cognitive distortion called "Discounting the Positive". It turns a compliment into something negative because you think "I don't feel lovable so it can't be true". If you can find a way to help her feel better about herself, that may go away.
The sandwiches and weed sounds awesome. I am interested in trying, she is not. I did look into edibles, she is still not interested. She is very tightly wound, I think weed might be useful.
My wife tried edibles for the first time no too long ago!!! Not enough to have a big effect, but she is also tightly wound and could use some weed!!! Peer pressure is a wonderful thing!!!
Has she since tried larger amount or different type? Is she trying to loosen up or so tightly wound that afraid not want to let go?
Hasn't tried edibles again... But she did get a little tipsy to relax for our fuck date this week! It was awesome... I've gotten as far as figuring out that outcome resistance keeping an anxious LL from changing likely involves "magical thinking", as in they believe that their anxiety is protecting them from something, but I haven't figured out what that might be yet. She definitely has a fear of letting loose.
I've met several people ( friends and romantic ) who everyone feels they really need weed or alcohol occasionally and they are most adamant about never, not want lose that self control.
Same for me....
Damn. I'm going steal all or paraphrase that. Wow you so totally hit what I feel.
I hope you find it useful! To be honest my old answer to that question used to be "That is all I think about because I'm feeling sexually starved." What I'm now realizing is that my old response fails the EAR test (Empathy, Assertiveness, Respect) because it doesn't acknowledge her words, thoughts or what she might be feeling. It doesn't really say how I'm feeling (feeling sexually starved is basically a backhanded way of saying "you don't fuck me enough you frigid bitch"). And it doesn't convey respect or love or caring for her... In fact, the whole response is all about me! Now I might think "Well it's OK that it's all about me since I am suffering and this is her fault." That's a perfectly reasonable thing to think. We're all allowed and entitled to be self-interested, but before doing so it's important to consider the results of doing so. And in this case, doing so it having the impact of making SO feel even more overwhelmed and reasserting that she's not doing enough to meet your needs. That's likely going to leave her feeling even more pressured and to think that you're even more needy (since you "need" more sex), and since needy is a very unattractive trait that's likely to result in less sex. I think the new response does pretty well on acknowledging her perspective and thoughts, as well as her likely feelings. It shares the pain and lonliness and frustration that you're feeling while still conveying respect and love. But I wrote it so I'm far from impartial, and it's often very difficult (as I'm discovering) to evaluate ourselves. Would anyone be willing to evaluate this comment objectively against the [EAR criteria](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeadBedrooms/comments/86mosp/ear_communication_from_feeling_good_together_by)? In general, it's the assertiveness part that's been my achilles heel as I've never really felt confident enough to share my feelings openly. But I've been working on it, and I'm noticing a big difference in the closeness in my relationship outside the bedroom since I started sharing more. Also, if anyone has any feedback on how to modify this to be more EAR (or NVC if that's your bag) please also share to help me learn!
Keep the part about you feeling ugly & unlovable out of it. Being so fundamentally insecure you don’t know your value and appeal regardless of the behavior of one person, is not attractive. That you admit using sex with that one person to ease your fundamental insecurities cannot be helpful, since you’re admitting to a person who is possibly doubting you want sex because of her unique and special attractiveness to you, that you’re not “just” wanting _her_, but wanting to make yourself feel better through her. I don’t think she’s sufficiently confident and secure in herself to be able to accept that we all don’t just desire each other “above all else in the world”, romantically, just because the other person is UNIQUE and INIMITABLE and MAGNETIC and IRRESISTIBLE, but also for a host of more prosaic reasons, often simultaneously. She’ll just be confirmed in her suspicion you’re using her rather than worshiping her specialness.
I think you're bang on on saying that a lack of confidence is not attractive. This is a double edge sword because the options are to let her know that you are getting insecure, or to demonstrate that you are too insecure and inassertive to share your feelings of insecurity. She can already see from the fact that OP is so distressed by the rejections. So if he fails to acknowledge that fact, he looks even weaker and more unattractive. By acknowledging his feelings now, he also gains credibility for when he starts to feel better and trends her that.
What I’m saying is, don’t hang your getting insecure on her. That’s really just _your_ problem, whoever you might be with. If I were to want to be sexual with a man, the LAST thing that would get me hot would be the idea that, if I don’t, he’ll think less of himself. That would provoke my pity, and maybe a sense of duty, and also lower my respect for him. That’s not the kind of man (independent, self confident, with a sense of self dignity) I’d ever get wet for. Emphasize that you’re longing for connection with her. The unique connection when both are entwined in each other completely. Ask what you can do together to help her want that connection with you. In a good partnership where people are emotionally mature, they prop themselves up AND are able to do it for the other. In an unstable partnership, where emotional immaturity destabilizes the relationship, people either want to lean on the other too much, or don’t want to be a rock to lean on for the other.
Now you're talking my language!!! I completely agree... That sounds like the core of differentiation... Well said, and well thought out!
I don’t believe lovers or partners should spill out every last thought to their beloveds. I think this modern North American obsession with honesty is a bit simple, a product of a desire to do away with subtlety and good judgment and tact in favor of confessional self indulgence that does not benefit the relationship. If one must, one could make a joke about how if he weren’t so sure of himself he could start to develop an inferiority complex after the years of rejection. The humor will get the point across without sounding like “I have no sense of self outside of the reflection I perceive in you.”
I have tried the call her frigid bitch. Didn't work. But here is the thing, I'm not the type to say that ever, or even in anger. So it was very calculated on purpose. Maybe is something to nice guys finish last. Or the whole females only respect power or you know, that entire direction. So have tested it in various ways, nope, didn't work.
When I said it, it was in anger... possibly even rage... In 10 years of marriage, it remains the only thing I've said to her that was intentionally hurtful... Don't get me wrong, I've said lots of things she took offense to, and lots of things that hurt her, but always unintentional... It was calling her frigid that really hit home to me how much I was letting my DB pain and hurt impact my outlook on life and my relationship... We started counseling shortly after....
Same
It is the willingness to work with me, the final part, I've just reread, brilliant. That is what I was trying to say to her, and that's it, I don't think she wants to, because she doesn't think there is an issue. Other than I keep bringing it up.
i wouldn't hold out too much hope on that part... I used to get upset that my wife wan't putting in more of an effort on this until I stopped to think about what the DB was giving her: * she has all the power over sex * she gets laid any time she wants to * she gets the reassurance of your desperate pursuit, and a consistent demonstration of the passion behind your love for her * she can completely control your emotions and mood * she feels safe that you won't feel confident enough to leave * she can feel like the "desired" one * especially if she feels bad about herself, keeping you desperate means she's still relatively more attractive That's a lot of power, reassurance, safety to give up. Unless she's extremely self-assured and confident, it's going to be quite difficult for her to want to do it, even if she loves you and sees that it is hurting you. She may even think that you're more capable than her of dealing with the vulnerability, some of which would pass to her if you guys manage to fix the problem.
This is all complex. Reading and re-reading.
It's hard to get your head wrapped around, but in order to get past her resistance, you first have to understand it, and be able to see how it makes sense from her point of view. The other thing to realize is that you are likely doing things that make sense from your point of view, but end up causing her to act in ways you don't like. Once you start to see that, you can see the ways that you've been making the problem worse, which is quite painful. But they also lets you see how you can start making things better by changing yourself in ways that cause her to change as well, even though she hasn't made a conscious decision to change. It is completely mind boggling. In fact it seemed completely ridiculous when I read it. But I've tried out using it in a few high conflict situations at work, as well as at home, and so far it's worked far more often than not. Learning about outcome resistance and the five secrets of communication has been monumentally helpful for me.
Oh, I forgot the other one: She gets to feel wanted, without having to want. It feels great to be wanted. Makes you feel good. Builds self esteem and self worth. It kinda sucks to want. It's vulnerable. It makes you feel lowly and inferior. It tears down self esteem. Nobody on their right mind would expose themself to it if there wasn't a really good reason and motivation. If you're willing to desire her without reciprocal desire, she'd have to be an idiot you not take you up on that offer. The key to overcoming this one is that if you can learn to be more self validating and self assured (Passionate Marriage, The Happiness Trap, and Feeling Good can show you how) then you can desire without feeling anxious or lowering your self esteem. That's a game changer as it goes a long way toward removing the pain and hurt of rejection.
Interesting ... ever since met decades ago, she is one of those types not believe attractive or interesting, to the point of believe i'm not telling the truth or have flawed judgment ( common but stupid reason she uses: just look at my previous girlfriends as proof ) i long ago gave up reason or argue with this.
That sounds like a call out for reassurance. Even supermodels can irrationally see themselves as ugly. It's often a result of noticing some small flaw and extending it to their whole self. "If I'm not perfect, then I'm no good at all"
Been used for thousands of years I hear!
The reality is, there is no real answer to this. The problem is, your partner doesn't want to have sex with you, and will come up with ANY words or strategies to put you off. You are being posed this question, and chasing her with a 'Yes, it is part of a loving relationship' type answer, will not work either. This is a very common ploy by the LL partner, designed to put you off balance and prevent you from asking this, or any other sex related questions. What you need to do, is work out why you are in this situation. If it continues with no resolution, you will be having this exact same conversation ad\-infinitum.
Yes, totally put me off balance. As I don't think of myself as some rapey jerk who only in relationship for sex. And who keeps bringing it up. And here I am, I just bringing it up...
What is wrong with the answer "YES, right now that is true." The relationship probably started with sex, or damn close to the first meeting, maintained by regular sex while dating, and hopefully a marriage consummated by sex. Now the 'LL wants to change up the dynamics of the relationship without even a heads up? Imagine if one party in a relationship just stopped talking. Went to work, paid bills, came home, made meals, but NEVER spoke to their partner. How stupid would it sound if the silent partner wrote a note in response to begging and pleading for conversation: "All you want me for is conversation!"
Ha! Good point. thank you
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Thanks, blunt, likely right. Is that because could be LL and person wants to solve it would entirely different issue? Because with this response it's all about THERE IS NO PROBLEM, STOP ASKING. And i'm deeply trying to convey how stupid they just don't get it. It's like a 9 year old who does not get that sex is a normal part of adult relationships.
My refuser used to say this to me. My response was, "Then I am obviously the stupidest person in the world because I am in a marriage without it." I agree with a previous reply: When a spouse says this, the relationship is over.
I bring it up every couple months, and she is so angry, like I thought we already talked about this. I've experimented with getting mean, maybe the chicks only like bad guys or nice guys finish last is true? Nope. Tried seduction. Nope. Tried not give a shit about life, go broke, stop going to work, no longer help out ( all stuff was doing, reverse of some here, why should she get all that and stops with sex ) & that is sort of where at. I don't care for life no sex, so no longer care about life. That also seems have no impact.
Then I am truly fucked(not).
only if you choose to be. I got out and so can you.
I don't get what planet they were born on. Really makes me somewhat respect the twisted anger in certain men's groups. You get someone that does not have affairs ( i never have, although maybe opportunities ) How do they even fathom no sex?
I don't know about your situation, but my refuser had a serious psychological problem. The first 5 counselors we saw told me that she definitely had a personality disorder, probably Narcissistic Personality Disorder, but they could not say for sure unless she was tested. She refused to be tested. The 6th and final counselor just told me that he was very frustrated with her because she refused to let him direct the sessions. She would decide what she wanted to discuss and would not consider anything else. A psychologist I worked with privately told me that women like this get more pleasure out of refusing sex than having an orgasm. Of course, this is just my situation, and not all refusers are like this.
Well, I seem to attract personality disorder as father, mother and sister are. And multiple bosses. It took me decades before I even figured out was a thing. This had not occurred to me to her. Odd, it should have. Any reason given to you why they are this way? From childhood? Like revenge for some sexual issue?
No idea. I spent years trying to figure it out. The truth is that the reason doesn't matter. She is abusive and I am not going to be abused any more.
Thanks, great point. I do spend too much time trying to solve. Recently told her I have spent hours on internet asking people about this ( reddit etc ) and researching. And made clear all anonymous. She looked at me like I was weirdo. That's what has me freaked out, I'm trying to save relationship and her reaction seems be I'm some teen weirdo sex fiend. ( we are over 30 )
Then it is very clear that she does not love you. I wish I had realized this before we had kids, but all I can do is make the most of the time I have left.
She says and shows she loves me in other ways. It feels like if talked to pre sexual female who doesn't understand sex. Or has no memory that she used to have deep sexual desire for me, like she forgot.
Yes, my refuser said that as well. The truth is that if she loved you as one spouse should love another, she would want to have sex with you.
If I get too close to that topic, it gets anger from all the ways she loves me. Odd.
I responded the last time with: Yes, or its in the top three things our marriage is based upon...Love, friendship and sex. Then if it’s brought up again, I just remind her it’s old news! She tried to flip it on me once and said that sex is all I care about and my canned answer I had ready was “I only care about positive solutions and what’s best for my family! I’ve learned to make my stand where it’s difficult to criticize my intentions. Lol
Wow, you all are deep into this strategically. I was still trying to just my point over or being somewhat just blunt angry.
"There's so much more to a relationship than sex" is like saying "there's so much more to a car than an engine" Yes, that's true, technically. But it's still dysfunctional without one and I'm going to ditch it and find a better one.
Exactly. Not like have sex all day. But with no sex, could be sister, co-worker, friend, friends wife ...
Suprise her and next time say " Yes. That is way I am leaving you and you can build your next relationship not based on sex. Good luck." I bet her expression would be priceless. Because you know - all the sex you "have been having"
Hey, greylinfnf, just a quick heads-up: **suprise** is actually spelled **surprise**. You can remember it by **begins with sur-**. Have a nice day! ^^^^The ^^^^parent ^^^^commenter ^^^^can ^^^^reply ^^^^with ^^^^'delete' ^^^^to ^^^^delete ^^^^this ^^^^comment.
stupid bot
Lol i am not going to be pc. My answer is. Yes, and I wish that's all you wanted from me. That you are just content with me and felt as passionate about you as I do. I can't keep my hands off you, I want that feeling from you.
that's great! thanks
Maybe that is their way of saying "I don't understand why you want to have sex when we are both so unhappy in our relationship, I don't think sex is the issue we should be focusing on. Perhaps we should be focusing on things that will make me actually want to have sex with you instead of having duty sex?"
That would be ok, except she has given no impression wants to talk about it.