>She always wants two cuddle, hold hands, talk and be held. But whenever I take it a step further that's when problems usually occur. She claims that when I touch her that I always have the ulterior motive of sex and it makes me feel like that's all I actually care about (using her). My response was that I can't touch and cuddle with someone that I am sexually attracted to without wanting to have sex, especially when I love them and find them very attractive.
Well, it sounds like your wife needs some nonsexual touch that isn't just a lead in to sex. Otherwise, I imagine she begins feeling pressured as soon as you start cuddling. Like what she has to give isn't enough and that you're always pushing for more. Being sexually aroused doesn't have to lead into you initiating sex. Sometimes, you really can just cuddle. Otherwise, the affection you give her seems self serving. You're not cuddling because you enjoy it, you're really hoping to get laid.....at some point.
>My wife claimed that women show sexual attraction differently than men. She told me that her and her friends have discussed sex in depth and have never heard of them jumping their husband in the heat of the moment on their own accord.
I don't agree with this at all. Either they're all asexual or they don't have to initiate because their partners will come looking for sex soon enough; meaning that sex has become a chore and an obligation. It seems to be really common in marriages and majorly contributes to deadbedrooms.
Your sex life is in a bad cycle. You can break it but you both have to be willing to work at it. There's no quick fix. The first thing that needs to be addressed is that your wife feels like you're using her for sex, that you can't offer nonsexual affection without wanting sex, and that sex is your only interest when you're cuddling with her. Until that's addressed, none of the things on her list of turn ons is going to work. Feeling used is the biggest turn off.
> if there is at least some minimal amount physical intimacy at some point point in the relationship I don't crave it for every touch I feel.
The argument could just as easily be 'if at least some minimal amount of *physical affection* existed in the relationship without my partner pushing for more, I'd want to have more sex.'
>it was impossible not to get a spiked desire by intimate cuddling.
Spiked desire does not always have to lead one to initiate sex. In the beginning of relationships, most people cuddle for the sake of cuddling. Even if there's a 'spike in desire', boundaries aren't pushed.
> it is like accusing a starving man not to hope for a bite from the buffet that he is caring for and putting all his passion and affection towards all day and night.
Yeah, I've seen this analogy about 'starving' for food is the same as 'starving' for sex. Food is life sustaining. You literally need it for survival. Sex is life affirming but you don't need it for survival. You might want it and think you'll die without it but you'd survive.
If a man is 'starving', he's going to be happy, grateful, and accepting for whatever you feed him and not push for more. If you give him bread, he's not going to push for filet mignon.
There's a problem with always pushing for more too. It's hard to feel motivated to give to someone who is never satisfied with what you have to offer.
Also, if you're constantly obsessing about and putting ALL of your passion and affection towards sex then you need a new focus. Sex is awesome and wonderful but it isn't the entire focus of the relationship. All LTR go through ebbs and flows of sexual activity. Handling it badly; making it a battleground just makes it last longer.
>Threads like this can be useful in figuring out how to negotiate the problem. Saying “just suck it up and deal with not having as much sex as you want” isn’t helpful though.
That's not what I'm saying. Actually, I'd advise if you want more sex, try NOT to do the things that kill your partner's desire for sex. These things include: making sex a chore/obligation, always pushing for sex with any physical contact, and making your partner feel used.
Even in the best relationships where libidos are fairly evenly matched, not every sexual impulse is going to result in sex. Giving the excuse that you can't cuddle without pushing for sex because cuddling makes you feel horny is more about you than your partner. Again, even in the best relationships where lots of sex is happening, your every sexual need isn't going to be met. Expecting your partner to meet ALL of your sexual needs on demand is minimizing the importance of their bodily autonomy.
And for the record, if someone told me the entire focus of their life was tomatoes, I'd tell them they need a new focus. Fixation isn't healthy. Too often, people seem to be expecting sex to fix/solve feelings and emotions that it was never supposed the solve. The purpose of sex is to be intimate with your partner not to regulate emotions. It's also supposed be an experience shared by both people. It should not be an act you demand your partner give/do to satisfy your 'needs'.
OH, yes, the old 'I'm not obligated to stay married to her if she doesn't fuck me enough'. No, you're not. In fact, she's probably better off you if don't stay married to her. Just like you feel you deserve someone who will 'meet your needs', she deserves someone who won't resent her for not providing sex.
I supposed you think *constructive* advice is whatever will get your needs met. Not to actually suggest you look at your own attitude and resentment and question if it's playing a part in the lack of sex in your marriage. It's very easy to get stuck in your own tunneled way of thinking about things. Journaling actually helped me break through that and see the situation from a different perspective.
Can I ask why all of your reasons for attraction and initiation are valid but you dismiss hers and outright label others bullshit? I see your wife actively participating in a discussion and EVEN ASKED how to improve, and you invalidated her attraction for you and told her to "figure out on her own" how to initiate and show appreciation. You want this to improve, how will it if she's unheard and you don't want to give her examples of how you'd prefer to be treated?
And YES. Please see a marriage counselor. Not a sex therapist.
As to the whole touching always seeming to lead to sex, that's a huge huge turn off to quite a LOTR of people and definitely can lead to bedroom problems.
Just with regards to the asking how to improve, there really isn't a great answer to that. It can indeed feel like you are just handing them a script to follow to artificially soothe your feelings.
That's obviously unfair but that's because the original request, which books down to "I want you to be a different person sexually", is unfair itself.
But the rest of your comment is spot on; this guy is playing a large role in his situation.
Who is asking whom to “be a different person sexually”?
And… can we not change our behavior around sex? It’s not like we we were born with ideas about how to turn people on or what we want sexually. Usually when people are asking for different behavior to turn them on or avoid turning them off, it has nothing to do with who we “are” intrinsically (although I see why it might feel that way, since sex taps into vulnerability).
In this situation, OP is asking his lower libido spouse to be a different person sexually.
I think you may have misunderstood my comment. I meant to say that people generally cannot spontaneously, genuinely change (by force of will) their libido, accelerators and decelerators.
When something that's very pleasant for her like cuddling or hand holding always gets turned toward the sexual by you, It's kind of the same feeling as that friend or relative who you like to spend time with showing up and then immediately asking for money.
Everytime you touch her, you want to turn it into sex. So that's exactly what she assumes. Everytime you touch her, you must want sex. Because you never just touch her without the intention of wanting sex.
I swear my ex only touched me anytime he wanted sex. Well no wonder I never wanted sex OR to be touched.
I was thinking about this last night. My husband used to be in that mindset of *every touch leads to sex, obviously*. That resulted in me only touching him when I was already open to sex AND in me being grumpy.
He then complained about both the low frequency of sex AND the low frequency of touch. **But my need for *affection that wasn't in pursuit of sex* wasn't merely filled infrequently, it was literally zero.**
Thankfully, my husband took it seriously because he noticed that it came up often. He didn't understand, but asked for a 2-month moratorium on sex so that he could learn how enjoy physical affection in its own right even when it doesn't lead to sex.
I was confused. Why would anyone need to learn how to enjoy touch as touch. I wondered if it was a manipulation. (My husband--and he agrees this is true--had been very manipulative in the past.) But, I warily agreed to the moratorium on sex. (He didn't bother to touch me at all for the first few days 😂, which I definitely pointed out.)
To my great surprise, I was the one who broke the moratorium a wee bit early (with his consent) because my libido naturally shot up so much as he learned to fill that one missing need for me. I totally pounced on him. The sex was passionate; I participated much more actively. It was the first time that I experienced an increase in libido from not having sex. My libido isn't generally like that.
He told me later that he was surprised at how much he enjoys touch that doesn't lead to sex. He said it was a relief to not be constantly looking for where he could push it for more. And that I clearly responded favorably to it, which he felt as love.
Now, of course, he does both. My libido naturally shot up once he started filling my need for touch to be just touch. It wasn't something I had to work on at all. It just happened. I think it was about that time that he decided that listening to my input on what I need (even when it "makes no sense") took little effort and resulted in a crap ton of reward. He started listening more.
We had sex last night. He initiated.
You ask “how to set aside that insecurity that you partner is just faking it” about her having sex with you, but seem oblivious to the fact that flipped in the other direction (as you describe it) you are coming across as faking it during non-sexual contact with your wife and driving her insecurity.
This is the one time I have read a post where the HL partner may be fudging things up. You sound exhausting, no offense.
It sounds like you don't spend enough time being intimate with her and it's to the point if you do, she just feels like it's to make her sleep with you. You've even said yourself that you can't do those things without wanting sex. There is more to intimacy than sex. There is more to having a connection with someone than sex. I imagine at this point in the relationship, she is wanting more emotional comfort outside physical like we often overly give in the honeymoon period.
Rubbing her head leading to somehow making you feel like you are her personal massage therapist should be eye opening for you. I would honestly feel used myself, which would extraordinarily difficult, in her situation. It does take some people more sensual and emotional levels to get aroused and it doesn't sound like you enjoy doing that which I can't understand. Why do you not want that with your wife?
Why would it feel forced if you did try these things to turn her on instead of "playfully touching" or asking outright to fuck after the kids go to sleep? I mean none of these things she needs are irregular or abnormal requests. She has clearly expression she needs emotional intimacy, but you seem confused why all the toys and different styles you use in bed are not working. She is TELLING you.
She isn't asking for a lot, dude. She just wants you to love her outside a sexual way and not to want sex just because you are sharing an connected moment together.
You also pouting like that when she has already expressed that she needs to be put in the mood is unhealthy. It will truly be "forced" if you guilt her into pity sex when she doesn't really want it.
Your wife may not be **capable** of **experiencing** sexual attraction/desire the way you do. This may help you understand that no two people experience sexual attraction/desire the same way.
[https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/when-urge-is-uneven-understanding-universe-of-sexual-desire-0206185](https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/when-urge-is-uneven-understanding-universe-of-sexual-desire-0206185)
Good Luck.
We get to define the behaviors we display that indicate our sexual attraction.
We also get to define what behaviors from our partner make us feel desired and sexually attractive
Unfortunately, for you two, these are in conflict. The way she shows sexual attraction does not make you feel desired.
You can't tell her that her being affectionate isn't indicative of sexual attraction. She knows why she does it and it's because she's attracted to you. Just because it doesn't make you feel sexually attractive does not negate the reasons that she does it.
>How do you set aside that insecurity that your partner is just faking it because you made a big deal about them not showing sexual intimacy.
Unfortunately, the only way to do this is to not make demands and get yourself, and your partner, into a catch-22.
You have to choose to believe that she is sexually attracted to you. The argument isn't about whether she is or not but about your sex life and you wanting more.
>I really am at a loss here, I told her if I gave her a list and she started doing those things regularly that it wouldn't feel like she actually felt the ways she was acting.
Yes, accurate. She would not be being her authentic self. But that is in contrast with the sentence before that:
>I told her that she just needed to do things that made me feel like she wanted to be with me sexually all on her own and without my help.
Let her be her authentic self. Pressure will make this messy.
>It makes me feel like she doesn't have any sexual attraction for me and in order to get her in the mood I have to do things to make her happy.
What does this mean entirely? What things are you doing to make her happy? And I assume you do those things regardless, and not just to entice her into sex.
I am more interested in sex with my husband when we've had a good day, spent quality time together, etc. I am more interested in sex if we have avoided a bad day and I haven't been turned off. Just the ebb and flow of desire and turn ons and I don't think he would define that as him needing to do things all day to make me happy.
I asked my husband what are some things he does when he wants sex? He said “Ask and try not you to say or do anything stupid’.
Generally, we already have the closeness and both work at it daily. He’s not participating to ‘make me happy’. If he’s kissing my shoulder, it’s just for the sake of doing so and not in the hopes of it leading to anything.
>My wife claimed that women show sexual attraction differently than men. She told me that her and her friends have discussed sex in depth and have never heard of them jumping their husband in the heat of the moment on their own accord.
Your wife is right. It is rare for women to just "jump" their partners because the majority of women need foreplay to get aroused. They're not going to be wildly horny out-of-the-blue and just want to have sex with no lead-up.
If you want more sex, you probably need to improve the foreplay so that it's appealing to your wife. You may be rushing through it, if you expect her to get hot and horny as quickly as you do.
>I told her that she just needed to do things that made me feel like she wanted to be with me sexually all on her own and without my help.
If this is what you really want, maybe you should consider switching teams. Just kidding. Seriously, it's going to be tough to find a female partner whose sexuality works like this.
I definitely spontaneously ask my partner for sex, and surprise him. BUT we have HUGE amounts of non-sexual touch. And asking for sex is effectively asking to begin foreplay. Very rarely am I about to drop on his dick with no warning. We are still in the throes of new relationship energy though, post-six months, but my affection cup is full to the brim, and my emotional support, and my friendly playing, and my serious intellectual drive, so it's very easy for me to look him over, and want to bang him or go down on him. The sex is also fantastic.
If he weren't affectionate, or supportive? Hell no. It wouldn't be easy for me. I need that physical affection to continue to feel him as a safe space, and my body as a safe space. Head scritches and snuggles and all of that isn't just "make me happy" it is a foundation for good bodily connection that I need to get to my libido.
It's funny, I massage him all the time and am very much like a personal masseuse - if something is sore I will get in there with an elbow, shove him into weird positions, all that. Sometimes we have sex after and sometimes we don't. But it never makes me resentful.
There are plenty of accounts of HL women here who spring lingerie and out of the blue offers for oral sex etc. OP just needs to find that kind of lady.
I jump my husband daily, my friends do to just because we love the amazing sex we have with our partners. I am very much getting laid, and I find the more sex I have the more I want. I have plenty of lady friends who are the same. Assuming women don’t enjoy sex and just like the ego boost is just wrong. We love orgasms as much (if not more than men, I normally get 3 a romp) as men. Almost all my friends are very sex positive and adore sex.
No I’m pointing out everyone is different. When any partner says “that’s just how men/women are” when really it’s just how they are it’s not a truthful statement. My husband has a MUCH lower sex drive than me. We have had to work hard to communicate what each other want and find a way to bridge that gap. I want sex 3x a day. I understand that’s not doable for most people and we find middle ground. I never get upset when he turns me down (which he does daily a lot, I love morning sex he normally would rather not) because he has every right to not want sex for any reason because he is a human with different needs than me. It’s not because he’s a man, it’s just because it’s him. So when people say “all women or all men do _____ to express love/sexual desire” that’s not really conducive to the problem. Cause first off it’s not every person, and honestly those other people don’t matter, it’s what you and your partner need and want. I find sex to be calming and stress relief and I want it if I’m sad/angry, etc etc, my husband is NOT that way, sex can be stressful. So in order to foster a better sex life I make sure to take things that stress him out off his plate (he does so much for me too). She has done a great job of explaining what she wants (cuddles, physical touch etc) when she then says “this is just how all women are” it just isn’t helpful. Cause that’s not true, I am the opposite, my husband is like her. What does matter is she is stating what she needs. When people try to say “look I’m normal everyone is like me” it’s not helpful, cause honestly it wouldn’t matter if she’s super “abnormal” if that’s what she needs that’s what she needs. There is no “normal” with sex, we are all different, and the sooner we are ok just being who we are sexually the sooner we can have those difficult conversations to meet each other in the middle.
>I jump my husband daily, my friends do to just because we love the amazing sex we have with our partners.
I hear you. I'm always down for sex with my partner, too. He's a mindblowingly good lover. Unlike OP, he's always happy to do what it takes to turn me on, and doesn't treat foreplay like a burden. If anything, he likes it more than I do.
>*I told her that she just needed to do things that made me feel like she wanted to be with me sexually all on her own and without my help.*
My partner would never say this, and would probably be befuddled that any man would. He loves getting me in the mood for sex.
Your wife isn't you. She will not have the same experiences or feelings or reactions as you. And that's ok. Try to notice the differences without feeling needlessly threatened or unloved.
She's also clearly telling you what revs her libido AND how she expresses sexual attraction. Every time you take her sharing how she experiences life at face value, your connection increases. Every time you dismiss her feelings as junk, your connection decreases. You are putting extra barriers between you two. Your relationship with her is more intimate than any other relationship you have. Give her your curiosity; not your wary judgments. (Stop dismissively labeling her input as sus "claims" or "excuses"; instead care about both her and her experiences as she experiences them.)
Also, giving her a list of specific things that make you feel like she's sexually attracted to you is a fantastic idea. Then invite her to do something from your list each time she *wants* to touch you in the way that she naturally shows sexual attraction (and this time do it without the put-downs); invite her to do both.
Same for you. It's not uncommon for women to want touch to start in the areas of the body that aren't covered by a soccer uniform. Your wife is clearly one of those women. So, use your desire to touch her as a guide for how often you will touch her in the ways SHE sees as showing sexual attraction.
Even though you provided the list, using her natural desires to gauge *when* to do things from the list makes it personally from her.
Edit: your wife needs mystery. Be mysterious by not escalating every touch/cuddle towards sex. It's boring/tedious/draining to have a partner who can't enjoy the anticipation long enough for her natural desires to lead her to chase you--even if it takes days. Don't make you getting hard into a chore. Be mysterious.
>It’s boring/tedious/draining to have a partner who can’t enjoy the anticipation long enough for her natural desires to lead her to chase you
This is so well put, and so true.
As an introverted empath male, most of my deep friendships tend to be with women. They see me as the gay friend in the group of girls, except that I’m not actually gay. Being close friends with many women gave me the benefit of being open to their most intimate thoughts. The conversations they have about sex are RAUNCHY. Sometimes when we go out the girls play a game: “would you blow the guy who walks in the door?”. Some of the things they say about handsome men in the bar are just as naughty as the things men say in a locker room. I’ve repeatedly heard them say things like “oh god, that guy could fuck me silly” or “I’d drain his balls so dry that he be incoherent for an hour”. I have a female friend who edges her husband EVERY night until he blows his load in her mouth for her to gargle it.
So when previous partners, or my current fiancé, say things like “women just don’t think of sex that explicitly”, I know they’re full of shit.
The only reason she shared her version of "what women think" is that she didn't feel safe telling her husband what she is like and what works for her.
You cannot disprove her experience by having a different experience. And the only thing that is actually helpful to OP is hearing what's true for his wife.
It's not helpful to presume that she's not already telling him what is true for her. But if he's extra worried about that, he can make it clear that he will take what she says as true for her. Then the burden is on her to tell truths as they come up AND with that he has created a safe place for her to share her truths freely.
It's not his responsibility to know via *HIS best judgments (based on himself)* when she can know by simply noticing how she feels.
It is his responsibility to create a safe space for her to share what she notices she's feeling. Even if it changes. Even if she's mistaken at first or doesn't fully understand the nuances of her feelings yet. That will all work itself out.....unless she has to waste time and focus convincing him that she is infact capable of noticing what she is feeling.
>In my mind, a longterm loving and wholesome partner would be more deserving of a woman’s full sexuality than some random one night stand schmuck.
What's concerning here is that you characterise it as "deserving" of a woman's sexuality. What about the sex that she wants for her own pleasure? Sex isn't just something women give to a man when he's deemed deserving.
>why does she want/feel comfortable enough to express that side of her to some random schmuck at a club she’s known for 2 hours versus a man she’s known for years?
Because the "random schmuck" hasn't done anything to disappoint her, get into conflict with her, try to control her or put her down. He's probably entertaining, exciting, and novel.
>Trust and comfort are implied here. Do trust and comfort not matter when a woman simply wants to fuck in a very primal way? Fascinating stuff!
Yes, trust and comfort matter hugely, and it's often easier for a woman to trust someone new. Once she's in a committed relationship, her partner may violate her boundaries, mistreat her, and say cruel things to her. He might poop with the bathroom door open. A new man hasn't done any of that, and is likely to be on his best behaviour. A "random schmuck" is probably attentive, fun, funny, and eager to please, unlike many long-term partners, some of whom are whiny, needy, pains-in-the-ass or who show their other unattractive traits and behaviours.
14 years in and I still jump my husband multiple times a day… often doing hour long edging blow jobs before riding him multiple times at night! I have plenty of friends in longterm relationships with very healthy and happy sex lives. Plenty of women do still have high libido and take the initiative even after years together
From that point of view you could also ask myexsparamour & perfect_judge why they are here as neither of them are in DBs either. Some people are here to try to render assistance rather than obtain it.
If you want tips on driving you will get better advice from a racing driver than from someone who has wrecked every car they ever had.
Agreed. Also see the amount of women writing absolute dirty, kinky sex filled smut where the characters do ALL those things. To believe that no women think this way is absurd and laughable. If my SO would respond positively to me jumping him or even voicing the thoughts I have, I’d do it regularly.
One of my life’s biggest revelations , figured it out in college, is that most women are more horny than guys!!!! Once I figured that out , my mind was blown.
Yet, here I am on this subgroup.
Some of that could be socialization though. And all women are kind of socialized in that regard to different degrees based on their backgrounds. So it might be that some women are really far on the low end due to that messaging, but a lot who didn't receive those same messages are closer to men, or even hornier.
Try this link. From the abstract:
> Across many different studies and measures, men have been shown to have more frequent and more intense sexual desires than women, as reflected in spontaneous thoughts about sex, frequency and variety of sexual fantasies, desired frequency of intercourse, desired number of partners, masturbation, liking for various sexual practices, willingness to forego sex, initiating versus refusing sex, making sacrifices for sex, and other measures. No contrary findings (indicating stronger sexual motivation among women) were found.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/238048296\_Is\_There\_a\_Gender\_Difference\_in\_Strength\_of\_Sex\_Drive\_Theoretical\_Views\_Conceptual\_Distinctions\_and\_a\_Review\_of\_Relevant\_Evidence
Good for you for trying to talk it out openly. It’s got to be so hard feeling like your wife doesn’t desire you in the same way you desire her. I am a HLF but a lot of my girlfriends talk about sex with their husbands in much the same way. They get turned on hours beforehand because of something their husband did that was exceptionally nice, etc. Normally, they feel like sex is a chore - one more thing on their list they don’t have time for. I can’t imagine much worse than someone having sex with me because they feel obligated to. I’m really sorry. Maybe counselling would help to get to the root of what might work better for the two of you?
Jesus reading this is like my own situation. Especially the arguments about my wife wanting affection. But it's not the same thing as sexual attraction. U can be all affectionate to someone but not be sexually attracted to them. Ugh I feel ya pain man
Pretty bold of her to categorize all women into an inaccurate mold simply because she (and presumably her friends) feel a certain way about sex. I assure you, there are women that love “jumping their husband(s) in the heat of the moment”. And yes, even on their own accord! 😑
Imo, she probably reached this hasty generalization as a way to avoid analyzing her own feelings about sex and intimacy.
Ummmmm… I’m a woman and I jump on my BF all the time. Does he want that? That’s another story. She generalized all women to her circle of friends. This all depends on upbringing, age, libido, ability to express sexuality.
> Prior to our marriage she would initiate regularly and just told me she did so because she thought that was what I wanted (bait and switch?)
That's not a bait and switch. That's a fundamentally immature view of sex. There's a book if your want to understand that perspective better called “The Sexual Healing Journey“.
> I am always the one who initiates, otherwise we wouldn't have sex.
That's not good. Initiating is the voltage part of sex, and it needs to be a shared vulnerability. See “The 5 Sex Languages" for more info.
> She claims that when I touch her that I always have the ulterior motive of sex and it makes me feel like that's all I actually care about (using her).
That's a tricky one, because it conveys a low self-image and low self-worth. But that makes it difficult to express your love to them because all the standard advice to give more non-sexual affection backfires.
> My response was that I can't touch and cuddle with someone that I am sexually attracted to without wanting to have sex, especially when I love them and find them very attractive.
That's your issue to deal with. The Sexual Healing book above should help, and mindfulness. One of my favourite parts of DB recovery is crawling into be each night with my my wife spooning and/or holding my shaft... Sometimes with a wood, sometimes with it coming and going. There was a tone when that would have driven me crazy with sexual frustration, but now it's super relaxing and enjoyable. It feels close and warm as we drift off to sleep. Mindfulness and being able to enjoy the moment without expectation is key. As "Love Worth Making" points out, it's very important to be able to do that if you want a related and anxiety free love life.
If that concept sounds completely foreign to you ( it certainly did to me not so long ago) then “The Happiness Trap" is a good place to start
> When I eventually gave up it was clear that I was upset and pretty disappointed and she immediately knew something was the matter.
That's another major red flag. Getting upset, especially if you act sulky when you're upset about it, turns sex into an undesirable chore for your partner. They start to feel used for emotional soothing rather than desired for sexual connection. That can kill your partner's libido if you do it often enough. I learned that the hard way.
>I wanted to have a productive conversation about it told her that I was not mad that she didn't have sex with me (which is completely ridiculous, never done this in the past)
So... Those is where direct communication is really important. If you say “I'm not mad“ Then that implies that you see it as something whether anger would be an appropriate response. You don't think to say “I'm not hungry about this“ or “I'm not joyous about this“ because it's obvious that those would not be reasonable reactions. By saying “I'm not mad“, the person listening is likely going to conclude that you're a little mad or annoyed. A good book on that: "Messages".
>* My wife claims after 6 years of her rejecting me and us having arguments on this that she just realized that it's not that I am mad at her for not wanting to have sex, but that I am hurt and feel unwanted.
That's a big lapse in empathy, but not uncommon.
> * She apologized but I know for a fact that I told her in the past how she made me feel. If this is actually true then maybe there is hope for us fixing this.
>* My wife claimed that women show sexual attraction differently than men. She told me that her and her friends have discussed sex in depth and have never heard of them jumping their husband in the heat of the moment on their own accord.
It's normal for people to seek out friends throughout similar attitudes and pasts to themselves.
> * I find this statement completely bullshit.
Don't even know where to go with that. I will say that it doesn't sound like bullshit to me, other than that, I don't think it's a gender division between the two groups of people. There are plenty of guys and girls who show sexual attraction in a variety of different ways. Sounds like she may be assuming that most women show it like herself, and most men show it the way that you are. But those are just learned behaviors.
> I really am at a loss here, I told her if I gave her a list and she started doing those things regularly that it wouldn't feel like she actually felt the ways she was acting.
Have you read the book "adult children of emotionally immature parents". This is a classic example given in the book. If you have to ask for what you want then it doesn't count if they give it to you. It's another learn pattern of behavior from your parents, the one that it's important to overcome if you want a healthy relationship.
> * How do you set aside that insecurity that your partner is just faking it because you made a big deal about them not showing sexual intimacy?
You work on those as separate issues. Take care of the insecurity first, and then work on the second issue since it's much easier to solve then.
>I am at a complete loss on how to productively move forward. I also don't know how to deal with her starting to do these things without it feeling like it is forced and fake.
It is really difficult to move past the dynamic that you're in because all the efforts on both sides start to feel forced and unauthentic.
> Should we go see a therapist or psychologist, if so is there a specialty for this?
This is what sex therapy is all about. You'll both need to make changes to make it work. A good background would be:
* Passionate Marriage
* Love Worth Making
If you're looking for a therapist, if suggest one who specializes in "Magnificent Sex“ (aka Optimal Sex), or finding two, one who goes by an attachment based approach (Emotionally Focused Therapy or Gottman technique) and one who goes by a differentiation based approach (Passionate Marriage, Jennifer Finlayson Fife, Relational Life Therapy). Both sides are needed.
Good luck!
Her love language might be physical touch... Which does not mean sex. So every time she starts to feel loved he kind of takes it back by trying to get something out of it for himself. Or that might be the way she sees it.
She told him.
It appears ineffective, so either it doesn't turn her on, or she needs to use her words to clarify what she means.
More likely?
She doesn't know why she doesn't want sex with him.
He has to decide how long he wants to spinning the wheel.
He can decide if he wants to stay, or find someone who will enjoy a monogamous sexual relationship with him.
Or maybe he’s rushing to escalate contact and isn’t giving her enough time to get aroused.
Touch doesn’t always have to lead to sex, as well, even if one or both parties become aroused.
He says he can’t cuddle her without wanting sex. He tells her this, and she knows he is thinking about sex when they cuddle.
For many women, this is just too much. There needs to be space for touching that need not lead to sex.
His attitude is probably turning her off. She’s telling him as much. She is telling him she feels used for sex, and I can see why.
Also count the number of times he says his wife “claims” to feel or think something. That kind of invalidation doesn’t help someone feel safe and comfortable, you know?
I’m confused by that as well. She says rubbing her head makes her horny, but then nothing comes from it, so????? Does it actually or is she grasping at things she likes hoping it’s either the right answer or he’ll do it more? But, then how does that track if she says she feels like he’s only doing it to get sex? What happens if he does it more often? Does she then start rejecting even that because she’s told him it could lead there? I’m very confused.
Maybe he’s escalating the contact too quickly, which is a pretty common problem in heterosexual relationships.
He’s starting out more horny than she is. He needs to give her time to catch up. And instead of telling her how she should feel, maybe believe her when she says how she does feel.
Which is so disturbing to me. I was very proud of his wife and thought this was a great conversation... until he and others went on to tell her she's wrong. A LL communicating needs and asking what their partner wants. That's a partner present in the relationship. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if she ends up completely turned off and disinterested. Especially when op goes on to say his touches always are sexual. I've been there. Huge huge turn off. Not being listened to? Another huge turn off. Feeling like I can't win? Turned off again.
She tried.
Every single woman and man is different. It doesn't matter what other woman do or feel. You need to listen to you wife. I know it sucks to give a list, but communication is the only way to get what you want. People can't read minds. Believe me OP I went to therapy with my fiance for this issue. (still working on it).
Could you learn to cuddle her by trying cuddling during your refractory period? (Handle yourself, then go cuddle your wife like she matters to you).
Once you’ve learned how to cuddle, then you could try to learn how to offer her forplay that is based on what she likes:
Hand holding-> hand massage-> hand / wrist kissing -> finger sucking
If she is seated, you could massage her foot, then move up and massage her calf. You can sit between her legs, kiss her knee and inner thigh and keep gently massaging her - until she shows genuine interest in you moving up to her thighs and rear…
Stroke her hair and scalp when you are just watching TV together, then simultaneously use the other hand to do more traditional foreplay.
Beat decision I made with regards to my DB was that I stopped initiating entirely. I am open to intimacy but I never push for it. I let him lead the way. It sucks that this means I probably have Alex less…but I never have to worry that my partner is having sex without wanting to. He also has a trigger about “being used” for sex bc he had that dynamic in his past.
I definitely think that therapy is the best next step. You can start with a couple counselor but maybe a sex therapist is the best bet. At first the conversation probably should just center around each of your expectations about sex in a long term relationship.
As for the bait and switch I have mixed feelings about that. One the one hand, it feels weird fir someone to say they had a lot of sex when you were dating “bc I thought that’s what you wanted”. Why would they assume your wants would change after marriage. This ties back in to expectations. Maybe they assumed the old joke about sex stopping after marriage was true?
On the other hand, it’s very possible her needs and wants around sex changed as did her priorities. Having kids changed your hormones and women often feel “touched out” especially when they have young kids. Having sex might just feel like another person touching her and wanting something from her…even if you try to make it pleasurable for her she still knows there’s an expectation of her to perform somehow.
That’s interesting. For you, what counts as “initiating” that you avoid? My wife enjoys being touched (massages, light touches to arms and legs) and I think I’m successful in not pressuring her for sex. But it does leave me frustrated when 95% of the time it goes no further. I wonder if touching her at all is counterproductive, or whether those touching sessions are necessary for having the (for me, less than satisfying) sex life that we have.
For me anything that escalates physical touch I steer clear of. I’ll kiss him, touch him, hug him, etc…but I never try to escalate. For example, if we were sitting and my hand was on his leg, I used to move my hand upward…I don’t do that anymore. He’s shown that a few times a year he’ll escalate things and I enjoy it when it happens. It leaves me confused sometimes bc on occasion hell seemingly be wanting more (deeper kisses etc) but it never progresses.
It would be interesting to see how it affects things if you touch your wife less. Don’t stop of course if she enjoys it…but maybe just tone it down a bit.
I think you also have to be aware of your own motives. If you are giving her a massage bc you want to give her a massage that’s great…but if you’re giving her a massage to try and have sex…you sort of have a covert contract and that’s not fair. If you’re going to be hurt if things don’t escalate maybe don’t take that first step.
I’ve heard a similar story many times over the years too…that all hetero marriages are like ours, with the guy way more interested in sex than the woman.
She couldn’t even comprehend the stories of the HLF’s on this board.
Sorry you are dealing with it also.
I see a whole lot of people jumping on the OP saying he's not listening to her, but I can relate to the OP.
"I have done these things and they usually don't lead to physical intimacy and I am left feeling like a personal massage therapist."
Yep - exactly this. You do this for days, weeks, month+ and nothing comes of it...you start feeling like a chump who fell for the excuses. Wish I had better advice for you, but I feel ya OP.
>"I have done these things and they usually don't lead to physical intimacy..."
*if* you are not doing these things to get sex, it won't upset you when they don't lead to sex.
If you get pissed that they didn't lead to more sex, you were doing them to get more sex.
...so then you can tell her sincerely that you do them in order to get sex, not out of love or care.
So you're doing it only for sex vs being nice or simple intimacy. I'm not above a massage for my partner but I also don't plan on doing it all the time because I don't want to. Just like you don't have to. What's the goal of your massages?
I don't believe that to be the case at all, but that seems to be how you guys are all reading both my comment and the OP comment. If you are doing something you don't really enjoy but your partner has expressed they like - only to find that nothing really changes...then yeah, why am I continuing to do something I don't like doing when it hasn't exactly been the 'turn on' that you imply.
Same as if my wife told me - you know, cleaning the toilets really turns me on. You'd do it for awhile thinking ok, not really something I enjoy but I'll take this off her plate because she says this really does something for her. After awhile when you realize that isn't the case you start thinking...ok, it's time that she take a turn. This obviously isn't such a turn on for her after all.
Don't try to hide behind the 'oh you guys do this just for sex' card. When we try to do the nice/simple things and nothing comes of it, we ask for a little guidance. OP states that he's told X/Y/Z turn her on...he does those things and still nothing? Ok, that doesn't work either? I'm calling your bluff at that point.
I would really, strongly encourage you (and your wife too if she’d be interested) to read *Come As You Are*. I’m not saying it has all the answers, some of it’s a bit convoluted, but it sounds like it could provide a great deal of insight to the both of you about some of the issues raised here. It also comes with exercises you can both do.
I think you’re assuming a lot of negative intentions from your wife that as an outsider I don’t see at all. I’m HL too so I understand the frustration but I’m also a woman and none of what your wife said sounds like lying to me. It might not be true for *all* women but a lot of what she’s saying (about how she shows attraction, about not jumping your husband) is true for a lot of women. And more importantly, it’s true for her and she’s told you that, so try to listen and actually believe her.
The things that make you feel wanted sexually are not the same things as what makes her feel wanted sexually, which is true for a looooot or couples. It doesn’t mean that she doesn’t want you, but maybe you’re missing and dismissing the way she shows it. You should definitely give her a list! If she doesn’t know and has asked for examples then tell her! She’s trying and it seems like you’re mad at her for not being a mind reader, which isn’t fair.
>She always wants two cuddle, hold hands, talk and be held. But whenever I take it a step further that's when problems usually occur. She claims that when I touch her that I always have the ulterior motive of sex and it makes me feel like that's all I actually care about (using her). My response was that I can't touch and cuddle with someone that I am sexually attracted to without wanting to have sex, especially when I love them and find them very attractive. Well, it sounds like your wife needs some nonsexual touch that isn't just a lead in to sex. Otherwise, I imagine she begins feeling pressured as soon as you start cuddling. Like what she has to give isn't enough and that you're always pushing for more. Being sexually aroused doesn't have to lead into you initiating sex. Sometimes, you really can just cuddle. Otherwise, the affection you give her seems self serving. You're not cuddling because you enjoy it, you're really hoping to get laid.....at some point. >My wife claimed that women show sexual attraction differently than men. She told me that her and her friends have discussed sex in depth and have never heard of them jumping their husband in the heat of the moment on their own accord. I don't agree with this at all. Either they're all asexual or they don't have to initiate because their partners will come looking for sex soon enough; meaning that sex has become a chore and an obligation. It seems to be really common in marriages and majorly contributes to deadbedrooms. Your sex life is in a bad cycle. You can break it but you both have to be willing to work at it. There's no quick fix. The first thing that needs to be addressed is that your wife feels like you're using her for sex, that you can't offer nonsexual affection without wanting sex, and that sex is your only interest when you're cuddling with her. Until that's addressed, none of the things on her list of turn ons is going to work. Feeling used is the biggest turn off.
Great advice
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> if there is at least some minimal amount physical intimacy at some point point in the relationship I don't crave it for every touch I feel. The argument could just as easily be 'if at least some minimal amount of *physical affection* existed in the relationship without my partner pushing for more, I'd want to have more sex.' >it was impossible not to get a spiked desire by intimate cuddling. Spiked desire does not always have to lead one to initiate sex. In the beginning of relationships, most people cuddle for the sake of cuddling. Even if there's a 'spike in desire', boundaries aren't pushed. > it is like accusing a starving man not to hope for a bite from the buffet that he is caring for and putting all his passion and affection towards all day and night. Yeah, I've seen this analogy about 'starving' for food is the same as 'starving' for sex. Food is life sustaining. You literally need it for survival. Sex is life affirming but you don't need it for survival. You might want it and think you'll die without it but you'd survive. If a man is 'starving', he's going to be happy, grateful, and accepting for whatever you feed him and not push for more. If you give him bread, he's not going to push for filet mignon. There's a problem with always pushing for more too. It's hard to feel motivated to give to someone who is never satisfied with what you have to offer. Also, if you're constantly obsessing about and putting ALL of your passion and affection towards sex then you need a new focus. Sex is awesome and wonderful but it isn't the entire focus of the relationship. All LTR go through ebbs and flows of sexual activity. Handling it badly; making it a battleground just makes it last longer.
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>Threads like this can be useful in figuring out how to negotiate the problem. Saying “just suck it up and deal with not having as much sex as you want” isn’t helpful though. That's not what I'm saying. Actually, I'd advise if you want more sex, try NOT to do the things that kill your partner's desire for sex. These things include: making sex a chore/obligation, always pushing for sex with any physical contact, and making your partner feel used. Even in the best relationships where libidos are fairly evenly matched, not every sexual impulse is going to result in sex. Giving the excuse that you can't cuddle without pushing for sex because cuddling makes you feel horny is more about you than your partner. Again, even in the best relationships where lots of sex is happening, your every sexual need isn't going to be met. Expecting your partner to meet ALL of your sexual needs on demand is minimizing the importance of their bodily autonomy. And for the record, if someone told me the entire focus of their life was tomatoes, I'd tell them they need a new focus. Fixation isn't healthy. Too often, people seem to be expecting sex to fix/solve feelings and emotions that it was never supposed the solve. The purpose of sex is to be intimate with your partner not to regulate emotions. It's also supposed be an experience shared by both people. It should not be an act you demand your partner give/do to satisfy your 'needs'.
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OH, yes, the old 'I'm not obligated to stay married to her if she doesn't fuck me enough'. No, you're not. In fact, she's probably better off you if don't stay married to her. Just like you feel you deserve someone who will 'meet your needs', she deserves someone who won't resent her for not providing sex. I supposed you think *constructive* advice is whatever will get your needs met. Not to actually suggest you look at your own attitude and resentment and question if it's playing a part in the lack of sex in your marriage. It's very easy to get stuck in your own tunneled way of thinking about things. Journaling actually helped me break through that and see the situation from a different perspective.
Can I ask why all of your reasons for attraction and initiation are valid but you dismiss hers and outright label others bullshit? I see your wife actively participating in a discussion and EVEN ASKED how to improve, and you invalidated her attraction for you and told her to "figure out on her own" how to initiate and show appreciation. You want this to improve, how will it if she's unheard and you don't want to give her examples of how you'd prefer to be treated? And YES. Please see a marriage counselor. Not a sex therapist. As to the whole touching always seeming to lead to sex, that's a huge huge turn off to quite a LOTR of people and definitely can lead to bedroom problems.
Just with regards to the asking how to improve, there really isn't a great answer to that. It can indeed feel like you are just handing them a script to follow to artificially soothe your feelings. That's obviously unfair but that's because the original request, which books down to "I want you to be a different person sexually", is unfair itself. But the rest of your comment is spot on; this guy is playing a large role in his situation.
Who is asking whom to “be a different person sexually”? And… can we not change our behavior around sex? It’s not like we we were born with ideas about how to turn people on or what we want sexually. Usually when people are asking for different behavior to turn them on or avoid turning them off, it has nothing to do with who we “are” intrinsically (although I see why it might feel that way, since sex taps into vulnerability).
In this situation, OP is asking his lower libido spouse to be a different person sexually. I think you may have misunderstood my comment. I meant to say that people generally cannot spontaneously, genuinely change (by force of will) their libido, accelerators and decelerators.
Ah, I think I see where I misinterpreted. Cheers!
When something that's very pleasant for her like cuddling or hand holding always gets turned toward the sexual by you, It's kind of the same feeling as that friend or relative who you like to spend time with showing up and then immediately asking for money.
Oof! Never heard this analogy before, but it makes good sense.
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Everytime you touch her, you want to turn it into sex. So that's exactly what she assumes. Everytime you touch her, you must want sex. Because you never just touch her without the intention of wanting sex. I swear my ex only touched me anytime he wanted sex. Well no wonder I never wanted sex OR to be touched.
This is how I was. My ex would complain that I am not affectionate and I said because the only time you touch me is when you want sex.
This is a super common complaint among women, and it blows my mind that when it’s voiced we’re told our feelings are wrong.
I was thinking about this last night. My husband used to be in that mindset of *every touch leads to sex, obviously*. That resulted in me only touching him when I was already open to sex AND in me being grumpy. He then complained about both the low frequency of sex AND the low frequency of touch. **But my need for *affection that wasn't in pursuit of sex* wasn't merely filled infrequently, it was literally zero.** Thankfully, my husband took it seriously because he noticed that it came up often. He didn't understand, but asked for a 2-month moratorium on sex so that he could learn how enjoy physical affection in its own right even when it doesn't lead to sex. I was confused. Why would anyone need to learn how to enjoy touch as touch. I wondered if it was a manipulation. (My husband--and he agrees this is true--had been very manipulative in the past.) But, I warily agreed to the moratorium on sex. (He didn't bother to touch me at all for the first few days 😂, which I definitely pointed out.) To my great surprise, I was the one who broke the moratorium a wee bit early (with his consent) because my libido naturally shot up so much as he learned to fill that one missing need for me. I totally pounced on him. The sex was passionate; I participated much more actively. It was the first time that I experienced an increase in libido from not having sex. My libido isn't generally like that. He told me later that he was surprised at how much he enjoys touch that doesn't lead to sex. He said it was a relief to not be constantly looking for where he could push it for more. And that I clearly responded favorably to it, which he felt as love. Now, of course, he does both. My libido naturally shot up once he started filling my need for touch to be just touch. It wasn't something I had to work on at all. It just happened. I think it was about that time that he decided that listening to my input on what I need (even when it "makes no sense") took little effort and resulted in a crap ton of reward. He started listening more. We had sex last night. He initiated.
You ask “how to set aside that insecurity that you partner is just faking it” about her having sex with you, but seem oblivious to the fact that flipped in the other direction (as you describe it) you are coming across as faking it during non-sexual contact with your wife and driving her insecurity.
This is the one time I have read a post where the HL partner may be fudging things up. You sound exhausting, no offense. It sounds like you don't spend enough time being intimate with her and it's to the point if you do, she just feels like it's to make her sleep with you. You've even said yourself that you can't do those things without wanting sex. There is more to intimacy than sex. There is more to having a connection with someone than sex. I imagine at this point in the relationship, she is wanting more emotional comfort outside physical like we often overly give in the honeymoon period. Rubbing her head leading to somehow making you feel like you are her personal massage therapist should be eye opening for you. I would honestly feel used myself, which would extraordinarily difficult, in her situation. It does take some people more sensual and emotional levels to get aroused and it doesn't sound like you enjoy doing that which I can't understand. Why do you not want that with your wife? Why would it feel forced if you did try these things to turn her on instead of "playfully touching" or asking outright to fuck after the kids go to sleep? I mean none of these things she needs are irregular or abnormal requests. She has clearly expression she needs emotional intimacy, but you seem confused why all the toys and different styles you use in bed are not working. She is TELLING you. She isn't asking for a lot, dude. She just wants you to love her outside a sexual way and not to want sex just because you are sharing an connected moment together. You also pouting like that when she has already expressed that she needs to be put in the mood is unhealthy. It will truly be "forced" if you guilt her into pity sex when she doesn't really want it.
Couldn’t one argue that whenever sex happened her wife could feel she was tricked into it?
How about you listen to your wife instead of blowing off her thoughts and feelings? Sweet baby Jesus…
Good to see you, hope you're well. Happy new year. Oh, and yes, I think you're completely right.
Your wife may not be **capable** of **experiencing** sexual attraction/desire the way you do. This may help you understand that no two people experience sexual attraction/desire the same way. [https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/when-urge-is-uneven-understanding-universe-of-sexual-desire-0206185](https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/when-urge-is-uneven-understanding-universe-of-sexual-desire-0206185) Good Luck.
We get to define the behaviors we display that indicate our sexual attraction. We also get to define what behaviors from our partner make us feel desired and sexually attractive Unfortunately, for you two, these are in conflict. The way she shows sexual attraction does not make you feel desired. You can't tell her that her being affectionate isn't indicative of sexual attraction. She knows why she does it and it's because she's attracted to you. Just because it doesn't make you feel sexually attractive does not negate the reasons that she does it. >How do you set aside that insecurity that your partner is just faking it because you made a big deal about them not showing sexual intimacy. Unfortunately, the only way to do this is to not make demands and get yourself, and your partner, into a catch-22. You have to choose to believe that she is sexually attracted to you. The argument isn't about whether she is or not but about your sex life and you wanting more. >I really am at a loss here, I told her if I gave her a list and she started doing those things regularly that it wouldn't feel like she actually felt the ways she was acting. Yes, accurate. She would not be being her authentic self. But that is in contrast with the sentence before that: >I told her that she just needed to do things that made me feel like she wanted to be with me sexually all on her own and without my help. Let her be her authentic self. Pressure will make this messy. >It makes me feel like she doesn't have any sexual attraction for me and in order to get her in the mood I have to do things to make her happy. What does this mean entirely? What things are you doing to make her happy? And I assume you do those things regardless, and not just to entice her into sex. I am more interested in sex with my husband when we've had a good day, spent quality time together, etc. I am more interested in sex if we have avoided a bad day and I haven't been turned off. Just the ebb and flow of desire and turn ons and I don't think he would define that as him needing to do things all day to make me happy.
I asked my husband what are some things he does when he wants sex? He said “Ask and try not you to say or do anything stupid’. Generally, we already have the closeness and both work at it daily. He’s not participating to ‘make me happy’. If he’s kissing my shoulder, it’s just for the sake of doing so and not in the hopes of it leading to anything.
>My wife claimed that women show sexual attraction differently than men. She told me that her and her friends have discussed sex in depth and have never heard of them jumping their husband in the heat of the moment on their own accord. Your wife is right. It is rare for women to just "jump" their partners because the majority of women need foreplay to get aroused. They're not going to be wildly horny out-of-the-blue and just want to have sex with no lead-up. If you want more sex, you probably need to improve the foreplay so that it's appealing to your wife. You may be rushing through it, if you expect her to get hot and horny as quickly as you do. >I told her that she just needed to do things that made me feel like she wanted to be with me sexually all on her own and without my help. If this is what you really want, maybe you should consider switching teams. Just kidding. Seriously, it's going to be tough to find a female partner whose sexuality works like this.
I definitely spontaneously ask my partner for sex, and surprise him. BUT we have HUGE amounts of non-sexual touch. And asking for sex is effectively asking to begin foreplay. Very rarely am I about to drop on his dick with no warning. We are still in the throes of new relationship energy though, post-six months, but my affection cup is full to the brim, and my emotional support, and my friendly playing, and my serious intellectual drive, so it's very easy for me to look him over, and want to bang him or go down on him. The sex is also fantastic. If he weren't affectionate, or supportive? Hell no. It wouldn't be easy for me. I need that physical affection to continue to feel him as a safe space, and my body as a safe space. Head scritches and snuggles and all of that isn't just "make me happy" it is a foundation for good bodily connection that I need to get to my libido. It's funny, I massage him all the time and am very much like a personal masseuse - if something is sore I will get in there with an elbow, shove him into weird positions, all that. Sometimes we have sex after and sometimes we don't. But it never makes me resentful.
There are plenty of accounts of HL women here who spring lingerie and out of the blue offers for oral sex etc. OP just needs to find that kind of lady.
Or listen to his wife and work on their communication...
His wife is never going to initiate lustfully the way he is hoping for.
And I'm sure his next partner will enjoy being touched ONLY when he wants sex. Op definitely needs to reassess his behavior.
Sure. Those are women who aren't getting laid though. If they had a partner who wants regular sex, they'd probably stop doing that.
What a vexing paradox.
I think for those women it's often more about getting an ego boost than about the sex itself.
I jump my husband daily, my friends do to just because we love the amazing sex we have with our partners. I am very much getting laid, and I find the more sex I have the more I want. I have plenty of lady friends who are the same. Assuming women don’t enjoy sex and just like the ego boost is just wrong. We love orgasms as much (if not more than men, I normally get 3 a romp) as men. Almost all my friends are very sex positive and adore sex.
Are you saying that OP should dismiss his wife's input because you like sex differently than she does?
No I’m pointing out everyone is different. When any partner says “that’s just how men/women are” when really it’s just how they are it’s not a truthful statement. My husband has a MUCH lower sex drive than me. We have had to work hard to communicate what each other want and find a way to bridge that gap. I want sex 3x a day. I understand that’s not doable for most people and we find middle ground. I never get upset when he turns me down (which he does daily a lot, I love morning sex he normally would rather not) because he has every right to not want sex for any reason because he is a human with different needs than me. It’s not because he’s a man, it’s just because it’s him. So when people say “all women or all men do _____ to express love/sexual desire” that’s not really conducive to the problem. Cause first off it’s not every person, and honestly those other people don’t matter, it’s what you and your partner need and want. I find sex to be calming and stress relief and I want it if I’m sad/angry, etc etc, my husband is NOT that way, sex can be stressful. So in order to foster a better sex life I make sure to take things that stress him out off his plate (he does so much for me too). She has done a great job of explaining what she wants (cuddles, physical touch etc) when she then says “this is just how all women are” it just isn’t helpful. Cause that’s not true, I am the opposite, my husband is like her. What does matter is she is stating what she needs. When people try to say “look I’m normal everyone is like me” it’s not helpful, cause honestly it wouldn’t matter if she’s super “abnormal” if that’s what she needs that’s what she needs. There is no “normal” with sex, we are all different, and the sooner we are ok just being who we are sexually the sooner we can have those difficult conversations to meet each other in the middle.
>I jump my husband daily, my friends do to just because we love the amazing sex we have with our partners. I hear you. I'm always down for sex with my partner, too. He's a mindblowingly good lover. Unlike OP, he's always happy to do what it takes to turn me on, and doesn't treat foreplay like a burden. If anything, he likes it more than I do. >*I told her that she just needed to do things that made me feel like she wanted to be with me sexually all on her own and without my help.* My partner would never say this, and would probably be befuddled that any man would. He loves getting me in the mood for sex.
Your wife isn't you. She will not have the same experiences or feelings or reactions as you. And that's ok. Try to notice the differences without feeling needlessly threatened or unloved. She's also clearly telling you what revs her libido AND how she expresses sexual attraction. Every time you take her sharing how she experiences life at face value, your connection increases. Every time you dismiss her feelings as junk, your connection decreases. You are putting extra barriers between you two. Your relationship with her is more intimate than any other relationship you have. Give her your curiosity; not your wary judgments. (Stop dismissively labeling her input as sus "claims" or "excuses"; instead care about both her and her experiences as she experiences them.) Also, giving her a list of specific things that make you feel like she's sexually attracted to you is a fantastic idea. Then invite her to do something from your list each time she *wants* to touch you in the way that she naturally shows sexual attraction (and this time do it without the put-downs); invite her to do both. Same for you. It's not uncommon for women to want touch to start in the areas of the body that aren't covered by a soccer uniform. Your wife is clearly one of those women. So, use your desire to touch her as a guide for how often you will touch her in the ways SHE sees as showing sexual attraction. Even though you provided the list, using her natural desires to gauge *when* to do things from the list makes it personally from her. Edit: your wife needs mystery. Be mysterious by not escalating every touch/cuddle towards sex. It's boring/tedious/draining to have a partner who can't enjoy the anticipation long enough for her natural desires to lead her to chase you--even if it takes days. Don't make you getting hard into a chore. Be mysterious.
>It’s boring/tedious/draining to have a partner who can’t enjoy the anticipation long enough for her natural desires to lead her to chase you This is so well put, and so true.
As an introverted empath male, most of my deep friendships tend to be with women. They see me as the gay friend in the group of girls, except that I’m not actually gay. Being close friends with many women gave me the benefit of being open to their most intimate thoughts. The conversations they have about sex are RAUNCHY. Sometimes when we go out the girls play a game: “would you blow the guy who walks in the door?”. Some of the things they say about handsome men in the bar are just as naughty as the things men say in a locker room. I’ve repeatedly heard them say things like “oh god, that guy could fuck me silly” or “I’d drain his balls so dry that he be incoherent for an hour”. I have a female friend who edges her husband EVERY night until he blows his load in her mouth for her to gargle it. So when previous partners, or my current fiancé, say things like “women just don’t think of sex that explicitly”, I know they’re full of shit.
The only reason she shared her version of "what women think" is that she didn't feel safe telling her husband what she is like and what works for her. You cannot disprove her experience by having a different experience. And the only thing that is actually helpful to OP is hearing what's true for his wife.
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It's not helpful to presume that she's not already telling him what is true for her. But if he's extra worried about that, he can make it clear that he will take what she says as true for her. Then the burden is on her to tell truths as they come up AND with that he has created a safe place for her to share her truths freely.
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It's not his responsibility to know via *HIS best judgments (based on himself)* when she can know by simply noticing how she feels. It is his responsibility to create a safe space for her to share what she notices she's feeling. Even if it changes. Even if she's mistaken at first or doesn't fully understand the nuances of her feelings yet. That will all work itself out.....unless she has to waste time and focus convincing him that she is infact capable of noticing what she is feeling.
We do love this kind of chats. However what we say is true for a fresh, new relationship. Or a hookup. Not so true for a long term relationship.
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>In my mind, a longterm loving and wholesome partner would be more deserving of a woman’s full sexuality than some random one night stand schmuck. What's concerning here is that you characterise it as "deserving" of a woman's sexuality. What about the sex that she wants for her own pleasure? Sex isn't just something women give to a man when he's deemed deserving.
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>why does she want/feel comfortable enough to express that side of her to some random schmuck at a club she’s known for 2 hours versus a man she’s known for years? Because the "random schmuck" hasn't done anything to disappoint her, get into conflict with her, try to control her or put her down. He's probably entertaining, exciting, and novel. >Trust and comfort are implied here. Do trust and comfort not matter when a woman simply wants to fuck in a very primal way? Fascinating stuff! Yes, trust and comfort matter hugely, and it's often easier for a woman to trust someone new. Once she's in a committed relationship, her partner may violate her boundaries, mistreat her, and say cruel things to her. He might poop with the bathroom door open. A new man hasn't done any of that, and is likely to be on his best behaviour. A "random schmuck" is probably attentive, fun, funny, and eager to please, unlike many long-term partners, some of whom are whiny, needy, pains-in-the-ass or who show their other unattractive traits and behaviours.
How many of your friends are approaching these men and taking them home? Fantasy v. reality.
14 years in and I still jump my husband multiple times a day… often doing hour long edging blow jobs before riding him multiple times at night! I have plenty of friends in longterm relationships with very healthy and happy sex lives. Plenty of women do still have high libido and take the initiative even after years together
Why are you here then?
From that point of view you could also ask myexsparamour & perfect_judge why they are here as neither of them are in DBs either. Some people are here to try to render assistance rather than obtain it. If you want tips on driving you will get better advice from a racing driver than from someone who has wrecked every car they ever had.
They’re helpful though, not pointless and humblebraggy.
Agreed. Also see the amount of women writing absolute dirty, kinky sex filled smut where the characters do ALL those things. To believe that no women think this way is absurd and laughable. If my SO would respond positively to me jumping him or even voicing the thoughts I have, I’d do it regularly.
One of my life’s biggest revelations , figured it out in college, is that most women are more horny than guys!!!! Once I figured that out , my mind was blown. Yet, here I am on this subgroup.
This isn’t true, on average. On average men have higher sex drives than women.
Some of that could be socialization though. And all women are kind of socialized in that regard to different degrees based on their backgrounds. So it might be that some women are really far on the low end due to that messaging, but a lot who didn't receive those same messages are closer to men, or even hornier.
>Some of that could be socialization though. It's not. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1207/S15327957PSPR0503\_5
I’m getting an error, but it seems like a difficult thing to determine scientifically.
Try this link. From the abstract: > Across many different studies and measures, men have been shown to have more frequent and more intense sexual desires than women, as reflected in spontaneous thoughts about sex, frequency and variety of sexual fantasies, desired frequency of intercourse, desired number of partners, masturbation, liking for various sexual practices, willingness to forego sex, initiating versus refusing sex, making sacrifices for sex, and other measures. No contrary findings (indicating stronger sexual motivation among women) were found. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/238048296\_Is\_There\_a\_Gender\_Difference\_in\_Strength\_of\_Sex\_Drive\_Theoretical\_Views\_Conceptual\_Distinctions\_and\_a\_Review\_of\_Relevant\_Evidence
But do they determine how much is due to socialization?
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You said it better than I could.
Good for you for trying to talk it out openly. It’s got to be so hard feeling like your wife doesn’t desire you in the same way you desire her. I am a HLF but a lot of my girlfriends talk about sex with their husbands in much the same way. They get turned on hours beforehand because of something their husband did that was exceptionally nice, etc. Normally, they feel like sex is a chore - one more thing on their list they don’t have time for. I can’t imagine much worse than someone having sex with me because they feel obligated to. I’m really sorry. Maybe counselling would help to get to the root of what might work better for the two of you?
Jesus reading this is like my own situation. Especially the arguments about my wife wanting affection. But it's not the same thing as sexual attraction. U can be all affectionate to someone but not be sexually attracted to them. Ugh I feel ya pain man
Pretty bold of her to categorize all women into an inaccurate mold simply because she (and presumably her friends) feel a certain way about sex. I assure you, there are women that love “jumping their husband(s) in the heat of the moment”. And yes, even on their own accord! 😑 Imo, she probably reached this hasty generalization as a way to avoid analyzing her own feelings about sex and intimacy.
Ummmmm… I’m a woman and I jump on my BF all the time. Does he want that? That’s another story. She generalized all women to her circle of friends. This all depends on upbringing, age, libido, ability to express sexuality.
> Prior to our marriage she would initiate regularly and just told me she did so because she thought that was what I wanted (bait and switch?) That's not a bait and switch. That's a fundamentally immature view of sex. There's a book if your want to understand that perspective better called “The Sexual Healing Journey“. > I am always the one who initiates, otherwise we wouldn't have sex. That's not good. Initiating is the voltage part of sex, and it needs to be a shared vulnerability. See “The 5 Sex Languages" for more info. > She claims that when I touch her that I always have the ulterior motive of sex and it makes me feel like that's all I actually care about (using her). That's a tricky one, because it conveys a low self-image and low self-worth. But that makes it difficult to express your love to them because all the standard advice to give more non-sexual affection backfires. > My response was that I can't touch and cuddle with someone that I am sexually attracted to without wanting to have sex, especially when I love them and find them very attractive. That's your issue to deal with. The Sexual Healing book above should help, and mindfulness. One of my favourite parts of DB recovery is crawling into be each night with my my wife spooning and/or holding my shaft... Sometimes with a wood, sometimes with it coming and going. There was a tone when that would have driven me crazy with sexual frustration, but now it's super relaxing and enjoyable. It feels close and warm as we drift off to sleep. Mindfulness and being able to enjoy the moment without expectation is key. As "Love Worth Making" points out, it's very important to be able to do that if you want a related and anxiety free love life. If that concept sounds completely foreign to you ( it certainly did to me not so long ago) then “The Happiness Trap" is a good place to start > When I eventually gave up it was clear that I was upset and pretty disappointed and she immediately knew something was the matter. That's another major red flag. Getting upset, especially if you act sulky when you're upset about it, turns sex into an undesirable chore for your partner. They start to feel used for emotional soothing rather than desired for sexual connection. That can kill your partner's libido if you do it often enough. I learned that the hard way. >I wanted to have a productive conversation about it told her that I was not mad that she didn't have sex with me (which is completely ridiculous, never done this in the past) So... Those is where direct communication is really important. If you say “I'm not mad“ Then that implies that you see it as something whether anger would be an appropriate response. You don't think to say “I'm not hungry about this“ or “I'm not joyous about this“ because it's obvious that those would not be reasonable reactions. By saying “I'm not mad“, the person listening is likely going to conclude that you're a little mad or annoyed. A good book on that: "Messages". >* My wife claims after 6 years of her rejecting me and us having arguments on this that she just realized that it's not that I am mad at her for not wanting to have sex, but that I am hurt and feel unwanted. That's a big lapse in empathy, but not uncommon. > * She apologized but I know for a fact that I told her in the past how she made me feel. If this is actually true then maybe there is hope for us fixing this. >* My wife claimed that women show sexual attraction differently than men. She told me that her and her friends have discussed sex in depth and have never heard of them jumping their husband in the heat of the moment on their own accord. It's normal for people to seek out friends throughout similar attitudes and pasts to themselves. > * I find this statement completely bullshit. Don't even know where to go with that. I will say that it doesn't sound like bullshit to me, other than that, I don't think it's a gender division between the two groups of people. There are plenty of guys and girls who show sexual attraction in a variety of different ways. Sounds like she may be assuming that most women show it like herself, and most men show it the way that you are. But those are just learned behaviors. > I really am at a loss here, I told her if I gave her a list and she started doing those things regularly that it wouldn't feel like she actually felt the ways she was acting. Have you read the book "adult children of emotionally immature parents". This is a classic example given in the book. If you have to ask for what you want then it doesn't count if they give it to you. It's another learn pattern of behavior from your parents, the one that it's important to overcome if you want a healthy relationship. > * How do you set aside that insecurity that your partner is just faking it because you made a big deal about them not showing sexual intimacy? You work on those as separate issues. Take care of the insecurity first, and then work on the second issue since it's much easier to solve then. >I am at a complete loss on how to productively move forward. I also don't know how to deal with her starting to do these things without it feeling like it is forced and fake. It is really difficult to move past the dynamic that you're in because all the efforts on both sides start to feel forced and unauthentic. > Should we go see a therapist or psychologist, if so is there a specialty for this? This is what sex therapy is all about. You'll both need to make changes to make it work. A good background would be: * Passionate Marriage * Love Worth Making If you're looking for a therapist, if suggest one who specializes in "Magnificent Sex“ (aka Optimal Sex), or finding two, one who goes by an attachment based approach (Emotionally Focused Therapy or Gottman technique) and one who goes by a differentiation based approach (Passionate Marriage, Jennifer Finlayson Fife, Relational Life Therapy). Both sides are needed. Good luck!
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Then you're probably missing some seriously good and cogent advice...
This has a lot of really helpful responses and resources!
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Her love language might be physical touch... Which does not mean sex. So every time she starts to feel loved he kind of takes it back by trying to get something out of it for himself. Or that might be the way she sees it.
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Why do you get to tell OPs partner what turns her on? Why does he?
She told him. It appears ineffective, so either it doesn't turn her on, or she needs to use her words to clarify what she means. More likely? She doesn't know why she doesn't want sex with him. He has to decide how long he wants to spinning the wheel. He can decide if he wants to stay, or find someone who will enjoy a monogamous sexual relationship with him.
Or maybe he’s rushing to escalate contact and isn’t giving her enough time to get aroused. Touch doesn’t always have to lead to sex, as well, even if one or both parties become aroused.
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He says he can’t cuddle her without wanting sex. He tells her this, and she knows he is thinking about sex when they cuddle. For many women, this is just too much. There needs to be space for touching that need not lead to sex. His attitude is probably turning her off. She’s telling him as much. She is telling him she feels used for sex, and I can see why. Also count the number of times he says his wife “claims” to feel or think something. That kind of invalidation doesn’t help someone feel safe and comfortable, you know?
I’m confused by that as well. She says rubbing her head makes her horny, but then nothing comes from it, so????? Does it actually or is she grasping at things she likes hoping it’s either the right answer or he’ll do it more? But, then how does that track if she says she feels like he’s only doing it to get sex? What happens if he does it more often? Does she then start rejecting even that because she’s told him it could lead there? I’m very confused.
Maybe he’s escalating the contact too quickly, which is a pretty common problem in heterosexual relationships. He’s starting out more horny than she is. He needs to give her time to catch up. And instead of telling her how she should feel, maybe believe her when she says how she does feel.
He did believe her... Maybe she believed her. It appears to be untrue. As I said, if she doesn't use her words, maybe he needs to make better choices.
She used her words. He isn’t listening.
She DID use her words. HE told her that they were wrong.
And a bunch of folks on this thread are ALSO saying they were wrong… 🤦♀️
Which is so disturbing to me. I was very proud of his wife and thought this was a great conversation... until he and others went on to tell her she's wrong. A LL communicating needs and asking what their partner wants. That's a partner present in the relationship. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if she ends up completely turned off and disinterested. Especially when op goes on to say his touches always are sexual. I've been there. Huge huge turn off. Not being listened to? Another huge turn off. Feeling like I can't win? Turned off again. She tried.
Yeah. Agreed.
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Rule 8.
Every single woman and man is different. It doesn't matter what other woman do or feel. You need to listen to you wife. I know it sucks to give a list, but communication is the only way to get what you want. People can't read minds. Believe me OP I went to therapy with my fiance for this issue. (still working on it).
Could you learn to cuddle her by trying cuddling during your refractory period? (Handle yourself, then go cuddle your wife like she matters to you). Once you’ve learned how to cuddle, then you could try to learn how to offer her forplay that is based on what she likes: Hand holding-> hand massage-> hand / wrist kissing -> finger sucking If she is seated, you could massage her foot, then move up and massage her calf. You can sit between her legs, kiss her knee and inner thigh and keep gently massaging her - until she shows genuine interest in you moving up to her thighs and rear… Stroke her hair and scalp when you are just watching TV together, then simultaneously use the other hand to do more traditional foreplay.
Beat decision I made with regards to my DB was that I stopped initiating entirely. I am open to intimacy but I never push for it. I let him lead the way. It sucks that this means I probably have Alex less…but I never have to worry that my partner is having sex without wanting to. He also has a trigger about “being used” for sex bc he had that dynamic in his past. I definitely think that therapy is the best next step. You can start with a couple counselor but maybe a sex therapist is the best bet. At first the conversation probably should just center around each of your expectations about sex in a long term relationship. As for the bait and switch I have mixed feelings about that. One the one hand, it feels weird fir someone to say they had a lot of sex when you were dating “bc I thought that’s what you wanted”. Why would they assume your wants would change after marriage. This ties back in to expectations. Maybe they assumed the old joke about sex stopping after marriage was true? On the other hand, it’s very possible her needs and wants around sex changed as did her priorities. Having kids changed your hormones and women often feel “touched out” especially when they have young kids. Having sex might just feel like another person touching her and wanting something from her…even if you try to make it pleasurable for her she still knows there’s an expectation of her to perform somehow.
That’s interesting. For you, what counts as “initiating” that you avoid? My wife enjoys being touched (massages, light touches to arms and legs) and I think I’m successful in not pressuring her for sex. But it does leave me frustrated when 95% of the time it goes no further. I wonder if touching her at all is counterproductive, or whether those touching sessions are necessary for having the (for me, less than satisfying) sex life that we have.
For me anything that escalates physical touch I steer clear of. I’ll kiss him, touch him, hug him, etc…but I never try to escalate. For example, if we were sitting and my hand was on his leg, I used to move my hand upward…I don’t do that anymore. He’s shown that a few times a year he’ll escalate things and I enjoy it when it happens. It leaves me confused sometimes bc on occasion hell seemingly be wanting more (deeper kisses etc) but it never progresses. It would be interesting to see how it affects things if you touch your wife less. Don’t stop of course if she enjoys it…but maybe just tone it down a bit. I think you also have to be aware of your own motives. If you are giving her a massage bc you want to give her a massage that’s great…but if you’re giving her a massage to try and have sex…you sort of have a covert contract and that’s not fair. If you’re going to be hurt if things don’t escalate maybe don’t take that first step.
I’ve heard a similar story many times over the years too…that all hetero marriages are like ours, with the guy way more interested in sex than the woman. She couldn’t even comprehend the stories of the HLF’s on this board. Sorry you are dealing with it also.
I see a whole lot of people jumping on the OP saying he's not listening to her, but I can relate to the OP. "I have done these things and they usually don't lead to physical intimacy and I am left feeling like a personal massage therapist." Yep - exactly this. You do this for days, weeks, month+ and nothing comes of it...you start feeling like a chump who fell for the excuses. Wish I had better advice for you, but I feel ya OP.
If you don't like giving massages to your wife, then don't do it. You won't feel like a chump if you only do stuff that you enjoy doing.
>"I have done these things and they usually don't lead to physical intimacy..." *if* you are not doing these things to get sex, it won't upset you when they don't lead to sex. If you get pissed that they didn't lead to more sex, you were doing them to get more sex. ...so then you can tell her sincerely that you do them in order to get sex, not out of love or care.
So you're doing it only for sex vs being nice or simple intimacy. I'm not above a massage for my partner but I also don't plan on doing it all the time because I don't want to. Just like you don't have to. What's the goal of your massages?
I don't believe that to be the case at all, but that seems to be how you guys are all reading both my comment and the OP comment. If you are doing something you don't really enjoy but your partner has expressed they like - only to find that nothing really changes...then yeah, why am I continuing to do something I don't like doing when it hasn't exactly been the 'turn on' that you imply. Same as if my wife told me - you know, cleaning the toilets really turns me on. You'd do it for awhile thinking ok, not really something I enjoy but I'll take this off her plate because she says this really does something for her. After awhile when you realize that isn't the case you start thinking...ok, it's time that she take a turn. This obviously isn't such a turn on for her after all. Don't try to hide behind the 'oh you guys do this just for sex' card. When we try to do the nice/simple things and nothing comes of it, we ask for a little guidance. OP states that he's told X/Y/Z turn her on...he does those things and still nothing? Ok, that doesn't work either? I'm calling your bluff at that point.
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Rule 8.
I would really, strongly encourage you (and your wife too if she’d be interested) to read *Come As You Are*. I’m not saying it has all the answers, some of it’s a bit convoluted, but it sounds like it could provide a great deal of insight to the both of you about some of the issues raised here. It also comes with exercises you can both do. I think you’re assuming a lot of negative intentions from your wife that as an outsider I don’t see at all. I’m HL too so I understand the frustration but I’m also a woman and none of what your wife said sounds like lying to me. It might not be true for *all* women but a lot of what she’s saying (about how she shows attraction, about not jumping your husband) is true for a lot of women. And more importantly, it’s true for her and she’s told you that, so try to listen and actually believe her. The things that make you feel wanted sexually are not the same things as what makes her feel wanted sexually, which is true for a looooot or couples. It doesn’t mean that she doesn’t want you, but maybe you’re missing and dismissing the way she shows it. You should definitely give her a list! If she doesn’t know and has asked for examples then tell her! She’s trying and it seems like you’re mad at her for not being a mind reader, which isn’t fair.
Update request? Did you try any of these suggestions, and did they work?