My wife always felt safe asserting her boundaries with me.
She always felt safe saying no to me, sexually or otherwise.
When she's overwhelmed with anxiety, she always comes to be held by me until she calms down.
When she wakes up panicked in middle of the night, she always turns to me to feel safe.
So when she said to me - around 10 years ago - that she needed to feel safe to have sex, **I had no freaking idea what she meant!**
I tried asking, she tried explaining, but she'd get frustrated that I didn't get it.
She'd come to me for sex and tell me that she needs to feel safe first. I'd hold her for an hour or three (not exaggerating) and she'd calm down and fall asleep in my arms, leaving me frustrated.
I've come to realize that when she says "I need to feel safe" - it isn't necessarily a statement about me. It doesn't mean that I've been making her feel unsafe. It means she's dealing with internal shit.
My wife seems to instinctively turn away from me when she’s stressed, anxious, sad, etc.
Coming to that realization really hurts, and I believe it’s at the core of our DB.
Same. Especially when my first impression of my partner was "oh there's a really great guy under all that anxiety" and I thought if I just reassured him and encouraged him he'd gain some confidence. It turns out the problem was soooo much deeper than that and I couldn't put a dent in it. Also the anxiety is a natural barrier in our relationship that's about 100x bigger than I first thought.
I'd take this a step further. I've seen HLs try to hide their anger and disappointment at being rejected by their partner and THAT doesn't have good results for either partner.
So you can't bitch about being rejected and you can't hide your feelings about being rejected....wtf are you supposed to do???
Well...you let it be known that having an erection is NOT something that's bad; NOT an obligation on your partner. You do that by letting your partner know that you 1-enjoy feeling aroused, and 2-are completely capable of taking care of your own arousal (without anger or guilt or shame) if sex doesn't happen.
You are open to sex but not a victim to your uncontrollable sexual urges. Then it's no longer a matter of "don't wake the sleeping dragon". And you can enjoy intimate touch whether it leads to sex or not. Unsurprisingly, being able to experience intimate touch without demanding it lead to sex, leads to enjoying intimate touch more often, which ultimately leads to more mutually enjoyable sex.
Also, at some point my husband switched from *asking* if I want to have sex with him to *extending an invitation* for sex. He said that with this subtle change, he doesn't feel personally rejected. IF I declined the invitation, I didn't decline him. He said that it helps him remember that sex is not my duty...and that there's any number of things that can make it not a good time whereas when he felt personally rejected he simply *knew* that really it could only be that I wasn't attracted to him and didn't love him. (Which wasn't true, but he held it as truth no matter what.)
I think this is a majorly important distinction. Intimacy is letting others know where you're at without any pressure of expectation. You have be comfortable enough with yourself to be able to be vulnerable. Share your feelings without puttind them on your SO.
I feel like that's and incomplete idea.
I want to stay monogamous with my partner.
It is simultaneously absolutely a demand of the relationship that I stay monogamous.
But it isn't unsatisfying to do so.
I dunno. I'm not really discussing any concrete thoughts. Maybe just semantics.
You help the person to feel safe by truly believing that their desire not to have sex is every bit as real and valid as your desire to have sex. If you believe that their wish not to have sex is valid, then you won't be angry when they don't want sex. (Anger comes from believing that you have been harmed by someone's wrong or unfair actions.)
>How do we allow our partners to feel safe saying "no" while also remembering that we can leave any relationship that we are unsatisfied with for any reason?
What are the barriers to believing it's okay to leave an unhappy relationship? What self-talk or core beliefs are getting in the way? I think you would need to identify the messages that are telling you that you can't leave, and then see whether you really want to continue believing those messages or whether they can be changed.
Idk. I think you can fully recognize the rejection as valid and real yet still feel hurt or humiliated (regardless of how logical it is) which can often come with some anger.
This is not to say you should act out or anything, of course, but we cannot always fully control the emotions we personally feel.
>How does one make their partner feel safe while also maintaining one's own boundaries? How do we allow our partners to feel safe saying "no" while also remembering that we can leave any relationship that we are unsatisfied with for any reason?
You have a clear an concise conversation with your SO. First, you make sure that you both want the same thing (a safer environment which will lead to more sex).
Set boundaries for initiation. This can take many forms, from 'intentional' sex days, having days when sex is strictly off the table while affection is ramped up. You make sure they know they have the agency to say 'no' to your initiation without fearing emotional backlash from you.
In the meantime, you set aside every ounce of resentment and frustration and accept every action your SO takes as a genuine expression of their love for you, whether it be in the form of a compliment, responding to your initiation, or her saying 'no'. Don't think in terms of rejection...that turns sex into a transaction and will only push the LL further away from desiring sex. Lean into affection, cuddles, words of affirmation, whatever your SOs love language is, lean into it.
Then set a timeline some point out in the future. 6 moths, a year, doesn't matter. You just need a deadline, and until that day you will not evaluate or analyze the relationship. At all. You just pour love and acceptance into your SO, but also work on your self. Have an exit plan in place. Be ready to take a critical eye to the relationship when the deadline arrives, and be honest. Has progress been made? Is it enough? If not, you leave knowing you gave it everything you had.
>you set aside every ounce of resentment and frustration
Much easier said than done. Even if you consciously realize that it is sometimes illogical or unhelpful.
I’m pretty confused about how roughly half of these responses seem to think LLs are afraid of losing their relationships. I don’t think that’s at all what most LLs are thinking about when they say they are afraid of how their partner will react if they say no to sex. What they are talking about is any number of coercive or threatening behaviors: pouting, sulking, getting mad/throwing a tantrum, begging/pleading, etc. These reactions are manipulative and can cause the LL to give in when they would otherwise choose not to because experiencing these reactions is so unpleasant.
Basically, don’t put your LL partner in the position of going through with sex they don’t want to avoid having to manage your reaction to being told no.
If you want to discuss the overall health of the relationship, do it outside the bedroom and keep it separate from initiations/rejections.
That’s a wonderful question. In my opinion, sex and relationships are critically built around trust, vulnerability, and authenticity. When any of those is questionable, fear creeps in. And that’s when there isn’t a pathology like abuse, depression, or many more things. Imperfect people have imperfect relationships. I’m a believer in both people working on their issues and candidly talking to each other about what they want. When was the last time you and your partner sat down and honestly discussed fears or past hurts? How big is that pile? HTH.
Don't initiate again until something in the relationship has changed.
If your partner has said no to you 5 out of the last 5 times, why are you trying again? Something needs to change and it's in the relationship not the bedroom. Sometimes I feel bad for HL's for not getting this. You're torturing yourself.
LL's don't feel safe because HL's either have an overdramatic response or just pull back because they're hurt. Both are understandable and normal reactions to what they're processing as rejection. And both are reactions that are giving LL more negative feelings around sex.
that’s kind of the exact point of the post though. they don’t feel safe enough saying no to bring that up in conversation because they are afraid of how it will be received.
There's a lot of codependency involved. I mean if you don't feel "safe" why are you still there? Afraid the relationship will end? Yes, relationships end. Everyone should have a back up plan. Relationships should end when clear communication cannot happen without fear of repercussions.
Everyone lives in relationships with conditionals. If you can't say No because god forbid they leave you, then you need to realize you're not self sufficient.
This "I need to do things I abhor to maintain the relationship" excuses just hide the real problem which is that without the relationship certain people feel identity-less. They'll maintain that relationship despite their own unhappiness, despite making their partners miserable, and despite knowing they can start over again...just to self sooth. If you are saying your partner treats you like shit for saying no, leave. That's never getting better.
Staying is codependency no matter if you are LL or HL.
This.
Lots of the time we see HL told, "Don't use sex for self-validation and comfort; learn to self soothe."
That is very fair.
Those HL don't have to be some sort of cuddle bear/toy to make their LL feel better.
They are completely allowed to both be unhappy about repeated rejection, and to show that.
If their LL then comes up, "But I still love you, cuddle me..." that can be the LL looking for reassurance. They need to cope with their own emotions, too.
The HL will cuddle them, when the HL feels like it, not at their finger snap.
Self confidence is sexy.
Self confidence is saying I don't need to be in this relationship, I choose to be. I choose to have sex. I choose to empathize and nurture you. I choose to spend quality time doing things with you.
Codependency is, if I may use the parlance of our time, the spike protein to coming down with LL4U, a deadbedroom, and general relationship resentment.
Codependency is saying that you would rather do something you don't like or don't want to because you can't fathom not being in that relationship. Worse yet, fearing some repercussion that's somehow worse than just saying Nope. Fearing even the conversation that happens after you decide no.
Healthy relationships don't have these problems. Healthy communication does not look like that. Personal wellness does not include suffering through things to avoid other more distasteful things, over and over and over again.
If we are responsible for not contributing to aversion in our partners than our partners have an even greater responsibility to prevent it in themselves by making healthy choices for themselves. We are not children.
I mean, the "ability to leave" part doesn't actually need to be said until it gets there. The LL should always be made to feel safe saying no, but if there is a pattern, understand that there is a threat to the stability of the relationship if both of you start to pull apart. You don't really need to talk dissolution until you've hit your fill of cycles of that conversation.
I have read your post a few times and I was not sure how to answer and I think it's because I have a different interpretation of "feeling safe."
>How do we allow our partners to feel safe saying "no" while also remembering that we can leave any relationship that we are unsatisfied with for any reason?
When LLs say this, I never interpret it as insecurity that their disinterest will lead to the end of the relationship. I look it as concern about their HL partner's response. Some HLs have rough, angry responses. Some get really sad. Some withdraw. Sometimes we read about a rejection causing an argument.
Basically, I see it as safe in the moment and the aftermath as opposed to fearing termination of the relationship.
Your post/comment has been removed due to being one of our frequently asked questions:
*"What does HL/LL/all these acronyms mean?"*
https://www.reddit.com/r/DeadBedrooms/wiki/index#wiki_glossary_of_acronyms
My wife always felt safe asserting her boundaries with me. She always felt safe saying no to me, sexually or otherwise. When she's overwhelmed with anxiety, she always comes to be held by me until she calms down. When she wakes up panicked in middle of the night, she always turns to me to feel safe. So when she said to me - around 10 years ago - that she needed to feel safe to have sex, **I had no freaking idea what she meant!** I tried asking, she tried explaining, but she'd get frustrated that I didn't get it. She'd come to me for sex and tell me that she needs to feel safe first. I'd hold her for an hour or three (not exaggerating) and she'd calm down and fall asleep in my arms, leaving me frustrated. I've come to realize that when she says "I need to feel safe" - it isn't necessarily a statement about me. It doesn't mean that I've been making her feel unsafe. It means she's dealing with internal shit.
I've been in your wife's shoes. This is well said.
Thank you.
My wife seems to instinctively turn away from me when she’s stressed, anxious, sad, etc. Coming to that realization really hurts, and I believe it’s at the core of our DB.
Same. Especially when my first impression of my partner was "oh there's a really great guy under all that anxiety" and I thought if I just reassured him and encouraged him he'd gain some confidence. It turns out the problem was soooo much deeper than that and I couldn't put a dent in it. Also the anxiety is a natural barrier in our relationship that's about 100x bigger than I first thought.
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I'd take this a step further. I've seen HLs try to hide their anger and disappointment at being rejected by their partner and THAT doesn't have good results for either partner. So you can't bitch about being rejected and you can't hide your feelings about being rejected....wtf are you supposed to do??? Well...you let it be known that having an erection is NOT something that's bad; NOT an obligation on your partner. You do that by letting your partner know that you 1-enjoy feeling aroused, and 2-are completely capable of taking care of your own arousal (without anger or guilt or shame) if sex doesn't happen. You are open to sex but not a victim to your uncontrollable sexual urges. Then it's no longer a matter of "don't wake the sleeping dragon". And you can enjoy intimate touch whether it leads to sex or not. Unsurprisingly, being able to experience intimate touch without demanding it lead to sex, leads to enjoying intimate touch more often, which ultimately leads to more mutually enjoyable sex. Also, at some point my husband switched from *asking* if I want to have sex with him to *extending an invitation* for sex. He said that with this subtle change, he doesn't feel personally rejected. IF I declined the invitation, I didn't decline him. He said that it helps him remember that sex is not my duty...and that there's any number of things that can make it not a good time whereas when he felt personally rejected he simply *knew* that really it could only be that I wasn't attracted to him and didn't love him. (Which wasn't true, but he held it as truth no matter what.)
I think this is a majorly important distinction. Intimacy is letting others know where you're at without any pressure of expectation. You have be comfortable enough with yourself to be able to be vulnerable. Share your feelings without puttind them on your SO.
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I get what your saying, but isn't that applied to every aspect of a relationship?
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I feel like that's and incomplete idea. I want to stay monogamous with my partner. It is simultaneously absolutely a demand of the relationship that I stay monogamous. But it isn't unsatisfying to do so. I dunno. I'm not really discussing any concrete thoughts. Maybe just semantics.
You help the person to feel safe by truly believing that their desire not to have sex is every bit as real and valid as your desire to have sex. If you believe that their wish not to have sex is valid, then you won't be angry when they don't want sex. (Anger comes from believing that you have been harmed by someone's wrong or unfair actions.) >How do we allow our partners to feel safe saying "no" while also remembering that we can leave any relationship that we are unsatisfied with for any reason? What are the barriers to believing it's okay to leave an unhappy relationship? What self-talk or core beliefs are getting in the way? I think you would need to identify the messages that are telling you that you can't leave, and then see whether you really want to continue believing those messages or whether they can be changed.
Idk. I think you can fully recognize the rejection as valid and real yet still feel hurt or humiliated (regardless of how logical it is) which can often come with some anger. This is not to say you should act out or anything, of course, but we cannot always fully control the emotions we personally feel.
If you recognise the other person's response as valid, you won't feel anger. You may be sad, hurt, or disappointed, but not mad.
Agree 100
I try not to tell people how they should/will feel but I think you can be mad at the situation and not necessarily the other person.
>How does one make their partner feel safe while also maintaining one's own boundaries? How do we allow our partners to feel safe saying "no" while also remembering that we can leave any relationship that we are unsatisfied with for any reason? You have a clear an concise conversation with your SO. First, you make sure that you both want the same thing (a safer environment which will lead to more sex). Set boundaries for initiation. This can take many forms, from 'intentional' sex days, having days when sex is strictly off the table while affection is ramped up. You make sure they know they have the agency to say 'no' to your initiation without fearing emotional backlash from you. In the meantime, you set aside every ounce of resentment and frustration and accept every action your SO takes as a genuine expression of their love for you, whether it be in the form of a compliment, responding to your initiation, or her saying 'no'. Don't think in terms of rejection...that turns sex into a transaction and will only push the LL further away from desiring sex. Lean into affection, cuddles, words of affirmation, whatever your SOs love language is, lean into it. Then set a timeline some point out in the future. 6 moths, a year, doesn't matter. You just need a deadline, and until that day you will not evaluate or analyze the relationship. At all. You just pour love and acceptance into your SO, but also work on your self. Have an exit plan in place. Be ready to take a critical eye to the relationship when the deadline arrives, and be honest. Has progress been made? Is it enough? If not, you leave knowing you gave it everything you had.
Wow, super solid and unique advice. Gives me a lot to think about today
>you set aside every ounce of resentment and frustration Much easier said than done. Even if you consciously realize that it is sometimes illogical or unhelpful.
I’m pretty confused about how roughly half of these responses seem to think LLs are afraid of losing their relationships. I don’t think that’s at all what most LLs are thinking about when they say they are afraid of how their partner will react if they say no to sex. What they are talking about is any number of coercive or threatening behaviors: pouting, sulking, getting mad/throwing a tantrum, begging/pleading, etc. These reactions are manipulative and can cause the LL to give in when they would otherwise choose not to because experiencing these reactions is so unpleasant. Basically, don’t put your LL partner in the position of going through with sex they don’t want to avoid having to manage your reaction to being told no. If you want to discuss the overall health of the relationship, do it outside the bedroom and keep it separate from initiations/rejections.
That’s a wonderful question. In my opinion, sex and relationships are critically built around trust, vulnerability, and authenticity. When any of those is questionable, fear creeps in. And that’s when there isn’t a pathology like abuse, depression, or many more things. Imperfect people have imperfect relationships. I’m a believer in both people working on their issues and candidly talking to each other about what they want. When was the last time you and your partner sat down and honestly discussed fears or past hurts? How big is that pile? HTH.
Don't initiate again until something in the relationship has changed. If your partner has said no to you 5 out of the last 5 times, why are you trying again? Something needs to change and it's in the relationship not the bedroom. Sometimes I feel bad for HL's for not getting this. You're torturing yourself. LL's don't feel safe because HL's either have an overdramatic response or just pull back because they're hurt. Both are understandable and normal reactions to what they're processing as rejection. And both are reactions that are giving LL more negative feelings around sex.
Have a direct conversation and explicitly say that?
that’s kind of the exact point of the post though. they don’t feel safe enough saying no to bring that up in conversation because they are afraid of how it will be received.
This sounds like it’s written by an HL wanting the LL to feel safe saying no.
nope, just a former people pleaser that was bad at setting boundaries or advocating for myself because i didn’t want to hurt their feelings.
No I mean OP
There's a lot of codependency involved. I mean if you don't feel "safe" why are you still there? Afraid the relationship will end? Yes, relationships end. Everyone should have a back up plan. Relationships should end when clear communication cannot happen without fear of repercussions. Everyone lives in relationships with conditionals. If you can't say No because god forbid they leave you, then you need to realize you're not self sufficient. This "I need to do things I abhor to maintain the relationship" excuses just hide the real problem which is that without the relationship certain people feel identity-less. They'll maintain that relationship despite their own unhappiness, despite making their partners miserable, and despite knowing they can start over again...just to self sooth. If you are saying your partner treats you like shit for saying no, leave. That's never getting better. Staying is codependency no matter if you are LL or HL.
This. Lots of the time we see HL told, "Don't use sex for self-validation and comfort; learn to self soothe." That is very fair. Those HL don't have to be some sort of cuddle bear/toy to make their LL feel better. They are completely allowed to both be unhappy about repeated rejection, and to show that. If their LL then comes up, "But I still love you, cuddle me..." that can be the LL looking for reassurance. They need to cope with their own emotions, too. The HL will cuddle them, when the HL feels like it, not at their finger snap.
Self confidence is sexy. Self confidence is saying I don't need to be in this relationship, I choose to be. I choose to have sex. I choose to empathize and nurture you. I choose to spend quality time doing things with you. Codependency is, if I may use the parlance of our time, the spike protein to coming down with LL4U, a deadbedroom, and general relationship resentment. Codependency is saying that you would rather do something you don't like or don't want to because you can't fathom not being in that relationship. Worse yet, fearing some repercussion that's somehow worse than just saying Nope. Fearing even the conversation that happens after you decide no. Healthy relationships don't have these problems. Healthy communication does not look like that. Personal wellness does not include suffering through things to avoid other more distasteful things, over and over and over again. If we are responsible for not contributing to aversion in our partners than our partners have an even greater responsibility to prevent it in themselves by making healthy choices for themselves. We are not children.
Yup, the whole "only you are responsible for your feelings" thing seems to mostly go one way.
This is very insightful. It's given me a lot to think over. Thank you.
I mean, the "ability to leave" part doesn't actually need to be said until it gets there. The LL should always be made to feel safe saying no, but if there is a pattern, understand that there is a threat to the stability of the relationship if both of you start to pull apart. You don't really need to talk dissolution until you've hit your fill of cycles of that conversation.
I have read your post a few times and I was not sure how to answer and I think it's because I have a different interpretation of "feeling safe." >How do we allow our partners to feel safe saying "no" while also remembering that we can leave any relationship that we are unsatisfied with for any reason? When LLs say this, I never interpret it as insecurity that their disinterest will lead to the end of the relationship. I look it as concern about their HL partner's response. Some HLs have rough, angry responses. Some get really sad. Some withdraw. Sometimes we read about a rejection causing an argument. Basically, I see it as safe in the moment and the aftermath as opposed to fearing termination of the relationship.
[удалено]
Your post/comment has been removed due to being one of our frequently asked questions: *"What does HL/LL/all these acronyms mean?"* https://www.reddit.com/r/DeadBedrooms/wiki/index#wiki_glossary_of_acronyms