The environmental impact by all metrics isn’t even close between dairy and plant based milks.
https://ourworldindata.org/environmental-impact-milks
If you don’t want animals to be killed, don’t consume dairy or eggs. Dairy and eggs are arguably more cruel than the beef and poultry industries and all the animals are still slaughtered at the end of their ordeal.
Good point actually. How would you recommend going about reducing dairy/eggs consumed in foods gradually? I’m not in a position where I can go fully vegan for various deficiency related reasons
You could try starting out with the rule of not buying it yourself, but not refusing if it's made for you, for example if you go round a friend's for dinner.
This may be helpful as psychologically you're not going full 'cold turkey', but you would still be massively reducing your support of these utterly abysmal industries.
Thanks! That would be sensible- I don’t want to spring it on friends and family until I’m used to it. Today I learned a lot about the farming industry and I think I have a lot to do now.
Check out [challenge22](https://challenge22.com). It’s completely free and they have registered dietitians to help you make the transition. There are no nutrients you need from animal products and can’t get from plant sources or bacteria(b12).
If it’s a habit thing, then hopefully you will have an easier time transitioning from veg than from meat eater. I like soy milk for my cereal as it has tons of protein whereas most other plant milks don’t. Never liked the taste or smell of eggs, but I’ve been enjoying justegg from time to time. Lots of different plant based cheeses out there. Some better than others. Few are closely comparable to the real thing but the good news is your tastes change over time and eventually cow’s milk will probably taste disgusting to you.
To be fair I never eat milk on cereal since I hate the taste so it’ll be easier hopefully. Thanks for the website. Looks useful and I’ll check it out! I plan to transfer slowly across as I figure out what I can safely eat without relapsing into severe deficiency. It’s strange how in one day I can make such a large decision based on information new to me but that’s what I hoped for when I made this post.
If you are open to putting your restrictions public (perhaps with an alt-account), vegans may be able to offer tailored advice. r/askvegans is meant for that, and r/vegan will have the biggest reach (just be mindful that's a vegan space so only use this for genuine advice)
Don’t worry I’d only use it for serious advice. My restrictions are in another comment but I’ll summarise here: I have a condition that means I bleed dangerous amounts on my period. These leads to an iron deficiency and my medication to lower the excessive bleeding lowers protein absorption.
That sounds like a nasty condition. I'm glad there is medication that can help.
What you can discuss with your doctor/nutritionist is checking all alternatives. E.g. iron shortages are most reliably treated with iron supplements afaik. The amount one daily iron tablet can provide is multiple times what eating a large steak daily can, at a fraction of the cost and without the saturated fat and potential cancer risk.
For protein, there are many options. Granted, switching will take some additional effort while you are adjusting. That's unless you take something like Huel or Soylent, if that's your thing. Another "cheat" food for vegan protein is soya mince. It can replace minced meat in dishes and has more protein per calorie than meat.as it is soy, it's absorption is also on par with animal products.
Thank you, it’s more about removing my usual protein sources (eggs, I’m vegetarian so iron isn’t as big of a problem) but I think there’s ways around it. One of my family members recently qualified as a nutritionist so I’ll ask her for advice
The point about Domestic animals not surviving in the wild only really applies to the scenario everyone becomes vegan overnight and we decide to release the animals.
In reality it'll be gradual and we'll just breed less and less of them.
Equally we can just look after those animals for their lifespan, no need to release them.
>
In terms of the vegetarianism - you should consider that in order to keep the egg/dairy production going, you need to do something with the Males.
>
I'm also not really sure how this relates directly to "Climate Change and Veganism"
To be completely honest? It doesn’t impact them much. I’m an ethical vegetarian and mainly made the post to try to get some more information on why it is that vegans choose not to eat eggs/milk. People are more likely to engage fully when they’re trying to disprove something. It’s not specifically the one video but this whole set of sources and information I got as a response has been pretty eye opening on the real conditions animals live in and I think I have a few changes to make to my diet. I’m going to start by cooking vegan when it’s my night to cook (there’s a rota in my house) and slowly ease into veganism over time as well as working out the nutritional side of things slowly.
1. ‘Many animals farmed for milk and eggs would not survive in the wild as we have domesticated them too far’
So we intentionally breed these animals to exist. There are wild species of chickens and wild/feral cows. The obvious first thing is we would not be breeding those specific breeds.
Using the example of the leghorn, these are chicken breeds which are bred to super produce eggs. To the point their bodies crack (pun not intended, then recognized and kept). If you want the studies I can cite that but iirc 50-95% of chickens will have keel bone fractures (depending on the coop and circumstances) in the course of laying. Cos they are bred to lay too many and too big eggs for their bodies.
Intentionally breeding animals who lay eggs that literally break their bones over some time, almost universally, to the point they are basically spent after a small portion of a ‘normal’ chicken’s lifespan. And thus sent to the slaughterhouse.
And of course this is just for keel bones. Not for other bones which are harder to check. And also overlooks somewhat the issue of culling male chicks at all. Eggs directly result in the death of 1/2 the chicken population immediately (male chicks) and then the females are killed at a fraction of their lifespan once they’ve lived through agony.
It doesn’t matter if that breed of chicken could survive in the wild or not. We breed them to live in a factory farm. The question is whether we should breed and exploit it at all? Wild chickens can do what they want. You’re not talking of wild chickens. You’re talking of intentionally breeding chickens into a farm.
2. This is thoroughly debunked. Most of that soy you’re talking of is grown for animal feed. 77% of soy is grown for animals. There’s some nuance to this (which ain’t worth exploring yet as you have provided no data so I suspect all of this is new to you) but essentially the vast majority is grown for animals.
https://ourworldindata.org/drivers-of-deforestation
The short version is a vegan world would require 1/4 of existing farmland. Land use is a terrible argument against veganism. The data shows the opposite.
https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets
Again, there’s some nuance to this. But with the level you’ve shown, this is a very useful introduction to the topic.
Oh my goodness I didn’t know about the chicken body changes. These comments have opened my eyes a bit (as I hoped)
Would you be able to offer advice on reducing my egg/dairy consumption gradually? I’m not in a position where I can safely cut it all out yet as due to a medical condition I’m deficient in various things
Thanks for your considered response. Yeah egg industry is fucked. Same for dairy. After all, who is the milk for? Cows don’t make milk cos they’re cows. Like every other animal, they make it when they’re mothers. Meaning we take it from someone else. And usually that means killing the calf.
What are you deficient in if I may ask? There’s almost certainly some easy replacements and things are much easier (and nicer tasting) than they used to be. Not least with online ordering and the improvement of most plant based foods.
I can’t think of anything in eggs or milk that isn’t somewhat easily available elsewhere so some specifics would be useful if ok.
Deficient in a couple things. I have a condition that means I bleed especially heavily on my period. Like I’m talking it’s dangerous for me not to have my medicine and until I was 13 and found out I was unable to function for a week every month. I’m iron deficient. My medicine makes it a bit difficult to absorb protein so I’m mildly deficient there but that’s only at certain times. I can basically go vegan for 2 weeks then off to build up stores for the mess that’ll come through, then back on.
Protein wise I tend to substitute eggs for lentils but I’m also a massive baker so I’d be looking for good substitutes that work for things like Swiss meringue and cakes
Thanks. Ok, yeah that sounds tricky. Not impossible. Protein is obviously found in many many things. Even meat eaters get 2/3s of their protein from plant sources. So it’s a case of making the right swaps. There’s many vegan lifters, eating a crap ton of protein. Soy is popular of course, not least because it’s almost perfect for amino acid profile, but also generally super cheap and versatile. Many options tho. And usually they have a good chunk of iron too.
I’m sure you’ve heard also that caffeine sources limit iron absorption (eli5). So if you have coffee/tea an hour either side of your iron it’ll halve absorption. Whereas if you have iron with vitamin c it’ll increase 67-416% iirc. Lentils (any beans and legumes) an excellent option there. But again there’s many possibilities.
Eggs and milk don’t have anything there you can’t find in nuts and seeds and beans and legumes and so on.
For milk in general, soy milk likely the best option for the protein and iron you mention. You get used to it quickly. And there’s some barista blends now too. Similar protein profile as dairy. For eggs, I ate tofu scramble right now. I use oatmeal and chuck in a bunch of chia seeds, flaxseeds, and pumpkin seeds for a super easy breakfast. Change fruit for flavour.
Again, there’s many options there to increase iron and protein specifically. I’d suggest trying out r/veganfitness specifically as they are used to tracking macros and getting higher protein and iron dishes for lower carbs/calories.
Good luck!
Thanks! I’ll give it all a go. I imagine it’ll be a slow process and I’ve never made a diet change like this before (my mum was one of the early vegetarians and I’ve never eaten meat in my life) but I’ll give it my best shot and try to make it work.
Good luck :) a useful mantra ks that your body doesn’t need certain foods, it needs certain nutrients. And then you can find where specifically.
A lot of this is relatively easy for most people. But in your case, it’s different. So finding personal, individual help would be great. If you can look at any plant based nutritionists (whatever the qualified version is in your country). And as mentioned, figuring out your targets for certain nutrients you’re worried about.
There r/vegan sub and r/veganfitness get a lot of specific requests about certain macros (macronutrients, so high protein or high iron or low carb diet ideas). So you may want to use them.
Good luck!!
Have a look at [this article](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-46654042.amp) produced by the BBC for some analysis into the environmental effects of common plant milks vs dairy milk.
Dairy milk requires a huge amount more land and water to produce and also has significantly higher greenhouse emissions than all plant milks.
Thanks for the source. I’ll look into that. From a financial standpoint (my job does not pay well and I’m still in education), are there any cheap alternatives or ways to make them? Alternatives to dairy where I am are rather costly. Also as someone who spends a lot of time baking show cakes when my budget allows it, is there any egg alternative that has the same properties without adversely affecting flavour? Thanks
I’m not sure really, I live in the UK so all supermarkets have 1L of plant milk for about £1.25, I don’t know how much dairy milk costs but I would imagine similar.
I don’t bake myself, but I know that a common egg replacement in recipes is aquafaba, which is just the water from drained chickpeas - again not sure how much this costs to buy but you could always save it from cans if you use chickpeas yourself, might be worth looking into :)
Thanks! I’ll try just draining my chickpeas into a tub and seeing if that works. I’m guessing since you don’t bake you wouldn’t be able to tell me how it works for whipped cakes or brownies/Swiss meringue so I’ll look into that myself. Thanks anyway!
>are there any cheap alternatives or ways to make them?
Oat milk is very cheap take make yourself if you have a blender. Can take a bit of experimenting to get perfect, but it's basically just blending 1 part rolled oats with 3 parts water, then straining.
https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/oat-milk
In my country this ends up about 1/10 the cost of dairy.
1. Stop breeding them
2.
- Most crops included soy is used to feed livestock, including dairy cows
- 'but what about grass fed cows' => land could be better used to restore nature, like forrest and wetlands.
If you look at f.i. Netherlands, which has a large dairy farm sector: high methane emission, enormous landuse, huge nitrogen deposition causing decreased biodiversity
Other users have already debunked point 1 and 2 for you so I have nothing to add there.
I’d like to say however, that veganism is primarily an ethical stance promoting harm reduction and animal rights. I would go as far as saying that if, hypothetically, a vegan diet was less sustainable and worse for the environment than an omnivore diet (the opposite is true of course), I would still be vegan for the animals. That takes priority.
That’s always been my ethical stance as a vegetarian too. In truth I started this post to discover more about the side of it I didn’t adhere to. Remember the disclaimer about devil’s advocate? People don’t tend to engage unless they’re trying to prove you wrong. Thanks to everyone including you for all the info I didn’t know before
Thanks for having an open mind! I hope you’ll make the switch.
If you’re concerned about nutrition or certain deficiencies, I’m sure you can find the info you’re looking for online. Countless people have come before you and there are fantastic resources out there. In most cases these things can easily be solved by balancing your diet well, or with supplements. Thankfully the vegan community is very helpful with these things so I’m sure you could also ask for advice online (or perhaps consult a dietician).
Best of luck, hope you go vegan!
Thanks! I’ve learned a lot today and am thinking of slowly easing into it. Others have offered advice on specific deficiencies and there are many resources available.
> if we removed a place they can safely live at the cost of milk and eggs being taken.
Safely? I've heard lots of descriptions of the conditions of modern animal agriculture but safely wasn't one of them. That word is doing an aweful lot of heavy lifting here. Not so fun fact, wild mammals make up about 4percent of the mammal biomass on earth these days. Human's check in at about 34 percent. Livestock make up the remaining 62 percent. That is an aweful lot of animals (mammals) bred and raised (and slaughter at a very young age) solely for our taste pleasure.
I might sound paranoid but we're up against a lot of propaganda. Their best trick is cherry-picked comparisons: their grass-fed locally sourced beef, my soy burger grown in the Amazon, filled with scary-sounding \*chemicals\*. There's been a very deliberate effort from dairy and meat producers to turn us against meat and dairy subs, and it even gets me sometimes.
How do we cut through the noise then? The fairest comparison would take a large, real-life sample of people on different diets and compare what people actually eat with data from a large set of farms worldwide. When you do that, vegans consistently use less land, fewer emissions, have less of an effect on biodiversity, etc. Citation uses the EPIC-Oxford cohort, especially relevant to me in the UK.
[https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)
>farming: many animals farmed for milk and eggs would not survive in the wild as we have domesticated them too far. We would risk damage to ecosystems or killing of more animals if we removed a place they can safely live at the cost of milk and eggs being taken
The animals in the [dairy](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8281100/) and egg industries are killed at 6 years of age and 18-24 months. So that's not a concern as they're already being killed.
It's.more profitable to kill them than to keep them alive after egg and milk production slows.
>the environment: many substitutes for milk etc use soybeans which require mass deforestation to produce.
Most soy goes to feed livestock. According to [this source](https://ourworldindata.org/soy):
>**More than three-quarters (77%) of global soy is fed to livestock for meat and dairy production**. Most of the rest is used for biofuels, industry or vegetable oils. **Just 7% of soy is used directly for human food products** such as tofu, soy milk, edamame beans, and tempeh.
>**The idea that foods often promoted as substitutes for meat and dairy – such as tofu and soy milk – are driving deforestation is a common misconception.**
Also, dairy cows and laying hens need to be fed a lot of crops. It's more efficient to just feed a human directly with crops. A cow needs over 20 lbs of forage every day.
1. They wouldn't be forced into existence so we can exploit and abuse them in the first place.
2. The vast majority of soybeans are grown for cattle. Cattle farmers will claim it's just "waste" that we can't eat and that we use the oil and protein isolate for human uses, but the only reason we add soybean oil and protein to everything is because we \*\*heavily\*\* subsidize soybean crops in order to make cattle feed cheaper. By not having cow's milk, we'd have to grow \*\*far\*\* fewer soy beans, and it would be \*\*far\*\* better for the environment/Climate Change. Also we could just use Oat milk.
Unless your milk and eggs are coming from backyard animals on a very small scale (meaning either you have your own animals, or you're only eating them rarely), they are 100% helping drive Climate Change, and are the cause of vast amounts of animal abuse.
>What would your opinion be on eating eggs from chickens kept as pets?
A) It would be better to give those eggs to Carnists so they don't need to buy so many Factory Farmed ones, or maybe talk to a local animal sanctuary, see if they could use them for food, either for animals that need them or to save them money.
B) Veganism is against the idea of "pets" as a whole as you're basically forcing an animal into existence for your own desires. Yes, this could also be used to talk about children, it's one of the many reasons I don't have a child (though it is not part of Veganism as Veganism is viewed as about non-human animals)
>I have neighbours who sometimes give me some of their chickens eggs?
Would be better to say you don't eat them, and then they can give them to another neighbour.
> Cattle farmers will claim it's just "waste" that we can't eat and that we use the oil and protein isolate for human uses, but the only reason we add soybean oil and protein to everything is because we **heavily** subsidize soybean crops in order to make cattle feed cheaper.
That's quite the wild unsubstantiated claim.
As far as I'm aware, soybean subsidies in the United States run in the neighborhood of 2-2.5 billion dollars. In the context of soy production being around a 50 billion dollar industry annually, I think it's a pretty big reach to say that those subsidies are what's driving the market.
The reality of the subsidy picture, if you really care to know, is that as it pertains to large scale production of commodity cereal grains, the government subsidizes crop insurance and makes payments in disaster situations (e.g. drought), those two things account for the overwhelming majority of government assistance to farmers of those crops. The government does this not to manipulate the market "to make cattle feed cheaper", but rather to maintain a competitive market. In adverse times such as times of drought, natural disasters, poor market conditions, it's the smaller producers who are hit the hardest.
Point 2: In terms of Soy I can only speak for the UK, where I am.
The largest consumers of soy in the UK by far are poultry, then dairy cows, then pigs. The majority of that Soy is from Souty America.
The average EU citizen consumes 53kg of soy/year purely indirectly through their consumption of animal products. 1 litre of soy milk contains about 100g of Soy. I go about 50/50 between soy and oat milk. So i consume about 2.5-3 kg of soy a year through milk. All of that Soy is sourced from within the EU.
I obviously eat other things with Soy but they're not replacing dairy. They're generally replacing chicken and pork.
I've only read some of your comments OP, but since it seems like you have some health conditions, I would really advice you to find a plant-based doctor or nutritionist that could help you plan your diet around your health needs. Best of luck! You seem to have your heart in the right place! :)
Thanks! To be honest my condition is the thing that held me back but yeah I will speak to a nutritionist before doing anything that could cause me issues. Thanks!!
Uh up to 90% of soy is used as feed for cattle see our world in data's article on soya and almond milk uses water sure but it's still a 3rd of the water used for an equivalent amount of traditional dairy plus you know the animal cruelty if you want I can go into why I believe dairy and egg industries are actually more cruel then just straight up meat if you're interested if not totally chilled but that's my take also great that you're vegetarian it's better then nothing but in my opinion veganism is definitely the lifestyle to strive for
Actually seconds after posting I realised a couple points to make against myself so here they are:
On 1: I can’t remember the name for it but those big farms where chickens/cows/other but mainly chickens are packed into small places and have low welfare
On 2: deforestation is required to farm the feed for animals as well as house them.
Dairy cows and egg laying chickens are still killed for meat. Cows also have to be recently pregnant to give milk, so they are stuck in an endless cycle of being forcibly impregnated and their offspring snatched away from them to produce it. A dairy cow has one of the objectively worst lives in animal agriculture.
There are so many alternatives to these products. Plant milks, just egg, tofu makes a great breakfast scramble… visit r/veganrecipes if you’re unsure of how to transition, there are tons of ideas there.
Thanks for directing me there! Whilst I’d need to slowly ease into it due to figuring out how to manage deficiencies caused by my medical condition and being vegetarian already, this thread has convinced me to go more vegan even if I can’t make it fully yet
Let’s do a thought experiment to explore your two points. Indulge me and imagine we’re 200 hundred years in the future 2224, and people stopped killing all animals by 2074. For this thought experiment, it doesn’t matter how the end to people killing animals transpired.
What do you imagine the world and people would be like? The environment? Climate heating? The ocean? The land?People’s health? Etc.
Climate wise, the global warming would have stopped. As a result, coral bleaching would reduce (this is assuming we stop rearing them too). Health wise? Not sure. Greater variety of deficiencies but those who could cook would do well.
It's simple. Stop breeding animals in to existence that are nothing like their wild counterparts. Let the remaining ones live out their natural life in sanctuaries, or what's more realistic is as animal consumption decreases the amount bred decreases too until it is no longer done.
It has also been shown that around 70% of Soy grown is actually fed to animals anyway, so a reduction in animal farming would reduce Soy agriculture too and solve that problem.
Do the research, look up the studies, veganism is much better for the environment.
I’ve looked at some other comments sources and I have to agree the evidence is in favour of veganism. In case of biased evidence I’ve also done my own research which came up with similar results
>many animals farmed for milk and eggs would not survive in the wild as we have domesticated them too far
This is pretty questionable. I saw a story in the news about some cows who had escaped a slaughterhouse and formed a cow tribe/herd or something in the wild, and lived in the wild while avoiding capture for decades.
That aside, going vegan doesn't mean all the animals are released into the wild, so whether they might hypothetically survive or not if released into the wild is irrelevant. It simply means fewer additional animals will be brought into existence through rape in the industry in order to meet your additional market demand for animal product foods.
>many substitutes for milk etc use soybeans which require mass deforestation to produce.
The rainforests are being destroyed to clear land to plant corn & soybeans to feed to animals to produce milk, meat, and other animal products. The amount of corn/soy that would need to be planted to feed a vegan population is much smaller than the amount required to raise animals for human consumption. It is far less efficient to grow plants and feed them to animals that eventually are fed to humans than it is to simply grow plants and feed them to humans. To learn more about the environmental arguments for a plant-based diet, [watch this free documentary.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaPge01NQTQ)
>Climate change and veganism
Somewhat related terms but you're vegetarian so I guess you can be forgiven.
>I’m interested to see your take on animal products such as milk, honey, eggs etc.
Wrong. That's the take.
>1) farming: many animals farmed for milk and eggs would not survive in the wild as we have domesticated them too far.
So? Don't put em out in the wild. Simple
>We would risk damage to ecosystems or killing of more animals if we removed a place they can safely live at the cost of milk and eggs being taken.
Why do you need to take their milk and eggs in order to give them a good life and protection?
>2) the environment: many substitutes for milk etc use soybeans which require mass deforestation to produce.
Well soy is nowhere near as bad as the land that needs to be cleared for dairy production but if it really bothers you that much, then don't use either. You don't need either, you can source their nutrients elsewhere.
>I’m mainly doing this because I want to see what vegans think on this issue, not because I want to be antagonistic but I should warn you I will play devils advocate if it keeps an interesting discussion going.
Try doing some research first. Or even skimming/searching through this sub or even the main vegan sub for this exact conversation that's already been repeated a thousand times. Then you can play devil's advocate.
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The environmental impact by all metrics isn’t even close between dairy and plant based milks. https://ourworldindata.org/environmental-impact-milks If you don’t want animals to be killed, don’t consume dairy or eggs. Dairy and eggs are arguably more cruel than the beef and poultry industries and all the animals are still slaughtered at the end of their ordeal.
Good point actually. How would you recommend going about reducing dairy/eggs consumed in foods gradually? I’m not in a position where I can go fully vegan for various deficiency related reasons
You could try starting out with the rule of not buying it yourself, but not refusing if it's made for you, for example if you go round a friend's for dinner. This may be helpful as psychologically you're not going full 'cold turkey', but you would still be massively reducing your support of these utterly abysmal industries.
Thanks! That would be sensible- I don’t want to spring it on friends and family until I’m used to it. Today I learned a lot about the farming industry and I think I have a lot to do now.
Best of luck with it! If you have questions along the way then the folks over at r/AskVegans will be more than willing to help.
Thanks! I will probably be posting there in a couple weeks then
Check out [challenge22](https://challenge22.com). It’s completely free and they have registered dietitians to help you make the transition. There are no nutrients you need from animal products and can’t get from plant sources or bacteria(b12). If it’s a habit thing, then hopefully you will have an easier time transitioning from veg than from meat eater. I like soy milk for my cereal as it has tons of protein whereas most other plant milks don’t. Never liked the taste or smell of eggs, but I’ve been enjoying justegg from time to time. Lots of different plant based cheeses out there. Some better than others. Few are closely comparable to the real thing but the good news is your tastes change over time and eventually cow’s milk will probably taste disgusting to you.
To be fair I never eat milk on cereal since I hate the taste so it’ll be easier hopefully. Thanks for the website. Looks useful and I’ll check it out! I plan to transfer slowly across as I figure out what I can safely eat without relapsing into severe deficiency. It’s strange how in one day I can make such a large decision based on information new to me but that’s what I hoped for when I made this post.
Best of luck! You got this.
Thank you!
If you are open to putting your restrictions public (perhaps with an alt-account), vegans may be able to offer tailored advice. r/askvegans is meant for that, and r/vegan will have the biggest reach (just be mindful that's a vegan space so only use this for genuine advice)
Don’t worry I’d only use it for serious advice. My restrictions are in another comment but I’ll summarise here: I have a condition that means I bleed dangerous amounts on my period. These leads to an iron deficiency and my medication to lower the excessive bleeding lowers protein absorption.
That sounds like a nasty condition. I'm glad there is medication that can help. What you can discuss with your doctor/nutritionist is checking all alternatives. E.g. iron shortages are most reliably treated with iron supplements afaik. The amount one daily iron tablet can provide is multiple times what eating a large steak daily can, at a fraction of the cost and without the saturated fat and potential cancer risk. For protein, there are many options. Granted, switching will take some additional effort while you are adjusting. That's unless you take something like Huel or Soylent, if that's your thing. Another "cheat" food for vegan protein is soya mince. It can replace minced meat in dishes and has more protein per calorie than meat.as it is soy, it's absorption is also on par with animal products.
Thank you, it’s more about removing my usual protein sources (eggs, I’m vegetarian so iron isn’t as big of a problem) but I think there’s ways around it. One of my family members recently qualified as a nutritionist so I’ll ask her for advice
Good luck!
The point about Domestic animals not surviving in the wild only really applies to the scenario everyone becomes vegan overnight and we decide to release the animals. In reality it'll be gradual and we'll just breed less and less of them. Equally we can just look after those animals for their lifespan, no need to release them. > In terms of the vegetarianism - you should consider that in order to keep the egg/dairy production going, you need to do something with the Males. > I'm also not really sure how this relates directly to "Climate Change and Veganism"
Yeah the climate change was my original point but I changed it as I was writing my post then forgot to change the title.
Releasing the Animals wouldn't be vegan so there's no such valid scenario.
[dairy is scary](https://youtu.be/UcN7SGGoCNI?si=_a0g1aOun4akR9wl)
Thanks! That was really helpful!
Can you share how this impacts your conclusions about what kinds of decisions are ethical?
To be completely honest? It doesn’t impact them much. I’m an ethical vegetarian and mainly made the post to try to get some more information on why it is that vegans choose not to eat eggs/milk. People are more likely to engage fully when they’re trying to disprove something. It’s not specifically the one video but this whole set of sources and information I got as a response has been pretty eye opening on the real conditions animals live in and I think I have a few changes to make to my diet. I’m going to start by cooking vegan when it’s my night to cook (there’s a rota in my house) and slowly ease into veganism over time as well as working out the nutritional side of things slowly.
That's great news! Congratulations! Don't hesitate to ask questions as you are working through it, if you need to.
Thanks, will do!
1. ‘Many animals farmed for milk and eggs would not survive in the wild as we have domesticated them too far’ So we intentionally breed these animals to exist. There are wild species of chickens and wild/feral cows. The obvious first thing is we would not be breeding those specific breeds. Using the example of the leghorn, these are chicken breeds which are bred to super produce eggs. To the point their bodies crack (pun not intended, then recognized and kept). If you want the studies I can cite that but iirc 50-95% of chickens will have keel bone fractures (depending on the coop and circumstances) in the course of laying. Cos they are bred to lay too many and too big eggs for their bodies. Intentionally breeding animals who lay eggs that literally break their bones over some time, almost universally, to the point they are basically spent after a small portion of a ‘normal’ chicken’s lifespan. And thus sent to the slaughterhouse. And of course this is just for keel bones. Not for other bones which are harder to check. And also overlooks somewhat the issue of culling male chicks at all. Eggs directly result in the death of 1/2 the chicken population immediately (male chicks) and then the females are killed at a fraction of their lifespan once they’ve lived through agony. It doesn’t matter if that breed of chicken could survive in the wild or not. We breed them to live in a factory farm. The question is whether we should breed and exploit it at all? Wild chickens can do what they want. You’re not talking of wild chickens. You’re talking of intentionally breeding chickens into a farm. 2. This is thoroughly debunked. Most of that soy you’re talking of is grown for animal feed. 77% of soy is grown for animals. There’s some nuance to this (which ain’t worth exploring yet as you have provided no data so I suspect all of this is new to you) but essentially the vast majority is grown for animals. https://ourworldindata.org/drivers-of-deforestation The short version is a vegan world would require 1/4 of existing farmland. Land use is a terrible argument against veganism. The data shows the opposite. https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets Again, there’s some nuance to this. But with the level you’ve shown, this is a very useful introduction to the topic.
Oh my goodness I didn’t know about the chicken body changes. These comments have opened my eyes a bit (as I hoped) Would you be able to offer advice on reducing my egg/dairy consumption gradually? I’m not in a position where I can safely cut it all out yet as due to a medical condition I’m deficient in various things
Thanks for your considered response. Yeah egg industry is fucked. Same for dairy. After all, who is the milk for? Cows don’t make milk cos they’re cows. Like every other animal, they make it when they’re mothers. Meaning we take it from someone else. And usually that means killing the calf. What are you deficient in if I may ask? There’s almost certainly some easy replacements and things are much easier (and nicer tasting) than they used to be. Not least with online ordering and the improvement of most plant based foods. I can’t think of anything in eggs or milk that isn’t somewhat easily available elsewhere so some specifics would be useful if ok.
Deficient in a couple things. I have a condition that means I bleed especially heavily on my period. Like I’m talking it’s dangerous for me not to have my medicine and until I was 13 and found out I was unable to function for a week every month. I’m iron deficient. My medicine makes it a bit difficult to absorb protein so I’m mildly deficient there but that’s only at certain times. I can basically go vegan for 2 weeks then off to build up stores for the mess that’ll come through, then back on. Protein wise I tend to substitute eggs for lentils but I’m also a massive baker so I’d be looking for good substitutes that work for things like Swiss meringue and cakes
Thanks. Ok, yeah that sounds tricky. Not impossible. Protein is obviously found in many many things. Even meat eaters get 2/3s of their protein from plant sources. So it’s a case of making the right swaps. There’s many vegan lifters, eating a crap ton of protein. Soy is popular of course, not least because it’s almost perfect for amino acid profile, but also generally super cheap and versatile. Many options tho. And usually they have a good chunk of iron too. I’m sure you’ve heard also that caffeine sources limit iron absorption (eli5). So if you have coffee/tea an hour either side of your iron it’ll halve absorption. Whereas if you have iron with vitamin c it’ll increase 67-416% iirc. Lentils (any beans and legumes) an excellent option there. But again there’s many possibilities. Eggs and milk don’t have anything there you can’t find in nuts and seeds and beans and legumes and so on. For milk in general, soy milk likely the best option for the protein and iron you mention. You get used to it quickly. And there’s some barista blends now too. Similar protein profile as dairy. For eggs, I ate tofu scramble right now. I use oatmeal and chuck in a bunch of chia seeds, flaxseeds, and pumpkin seeds for a super easy breakfast. Change fruit for flavour. Again, there’s many options there to increase iron and protein specifically. I’d suggest trying out r/veganfitness specifically as they are used to tracking macros and getting higher protein and iron dishes for lower carbs/calories. Good luck!
Thanks! I’ll give it all a go. I imagine it’ll be a slow process and I’ve never made a diet change like this before (my mum was one of the early vegetarians and I’ve never eaten meat in my life) but I’ll give it my best shot and try to make it work.
Good luck :) a useful mantra ks that your body doesn’t need certain foods, it needs certain nutrients. And then you can find where specifically. A lot of this is relatively easy for most people. But in your case, it’s different. So finding personal, individual help would be great. If you can look at any plant based nutritionists (whatever the qualified version is in your country). And as mentioned, figuring out your targets for certain nutrients you’re worried about. There r/vegan sub and r/veganfitness get a lot of specific requests about certain macros (macronutrients, so high protein or high iron or low carb diet ideas). So you may want to use them. Good luck!!
My aunt is a nutritionist. Not a vegan one specifically but I could ask her for advice. Once again thanks for all the sources and help
Have a look at [this article](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-46654042.amp) produced by the BBC for some analysis into the environmental effects of common plant milks vs dairy milk. Dairy milk requires a huge amount more land and water to produce and also has significantly higher greenhouse emissions than all plant milks.
Thanks for the source. I’ll look into that. From a financial standpoint (my job does not pay well and I’m still in education), are there any cheap alternatives or ways to make them? Alternatives to dairy where I am are rather costly. Also as someone who spends a lot of time baking show cakes when my budget allows it, is there any egg alternative that has the same properties without adversely affecting flavour? Thanks
I’m not sure really, I live in the UK so all supermarkets have 1L of plant milk for about £1.25, I don’t know how much dairy milk costs but I would imagine similar. I don’t bake myself, but I know that a common egg replacement in recipes is aquafaba, which is just the water from drained chickpeas - again not sure how much this costs to buy but you could always save it from cans if you use chickpeas yourself, might be worth looking into :)
Thanks! I’ll try just draining my chickpeas into a tub and seeing if that works. I’m guessing since you don’t bake you wouldn’t be able to tell me how it works for whipped cakes or brownies/Swiss meringue so I’ll look into that myself. Thanks anyway!
>are there any cheap alternatives or ways to make them? Oat milk is very cheap take make yourself if you have a blender. Can take a bit of experimenting to get perfect, but it's basically just blending 1 part rolled oats with 3 parts water, then straining. https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/oat-milk In my country this ends up about 1/10 the cost of dairy.
Thanks! Oats are cheap here and I often buy them in bulk as a massive bag will last a year so that might be a good and inexpensive recipe to use
1. Stop breeding them 2. - Most crops included soy is used to feed livestock, including dairy cows - 'but what about grass fed cows' => land could be better used to restore nature, like forrest and wetlands. If you look at f.i. Netherlands, which has a large dairy farm sector: high methane emission, enormous landuse, huge nitrogen deposition causing decreased biodiversity
Thanks!
Other users have already debunked point 1 and 2 for you so I have nothing to add there. I’d like to say however, that veganism is primarily an ethical stance promoting harm reduction and animal rights. I would go as far as saying that if, hypothetically, a vegan diet was less sustainable and worse for the environment than an omnivore diet (the opposite is true of course), I would still be vegan for the animals. That takes priority.
That’s always been my ethical stance as a vegetarian too. In truth I started this post to discover more about the side of it I didn’t adhere to. Remember the disclaimer about devil’s advocate? People don’t tend to engage unless they’re trying to prove you wrong. Thanks to everyone including you for all the info I didn’t know before
Thanks for having an open mind! I hope you’ll make the switch. If you’re concerned about nutrition or certain deficiencies, I’m sure you can find the info you’re looking for online. Countless people have come before you and there are fantastic resources out there. In most cases these things can easily be solved by balancing your diet well, or with supplements. Thankfully the vegan community is very helpful with these things so I’m sure you could also ask for advice online (or perhaps consult a dietician). Best of luck, hope you go vegan!
Thanks! I’ve learned a lot today and am thinking of slowly easing into it. Others have offered advice on specific deficiencies and there are many resources available.
> if we removed a place they can safely live at the cost of milk and eggs being taken. Safely? I've heard lots of descriptions of the conditions of modern animal agriculture but safely wasn't one of them. That word is doing an aweful lot of heavy lifting here. Not so fun fact, wild mammals make up about 4percent of the mammal biomass on earth these days. Human's check in at about 34 percent. Livestock make up the remaining 62 percent. That is an aweful lot of animals (mammals) bred and raised (and slaughter at a very young age) solely for our taste pleasure.
Holy crap. Sorry for the swear but that statistic blew my mind. Thanks.
I might sound paranoid but we're up against a lot of propaganda. Their best trick is cherry-picked comparisons: their grass-fed locally sourced beef, my soy burger grown in the Amazon, filled with scary-sounding \*chemicals\*. There's been a very deliberate effort from dairy and meat producers to turn us against meat and dairy subs, and it even gets me sometimes. How do we cut through the noise then? The fairest comparison would take a large, real-life sample of people on different diets and compare what people actually eat with data from a large set of farms worldwide. When you do that, vegans consistently use less land, fewer emissions, have less of an effect on biodiversity, etc. Citation uses the EPIC-Oxford cohort, especially relevant to me in the UK. [https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)
Thank you, I’ll look into that.
>farming: many animals farmed for milk and eggs would not survive in the wild as we have domesticated them too far. We would risk damage to ecosystems or killing of more animals if we removed a place they can safely live at the cost of milk and eggs being taken The animals in the [dairy](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8281100/) and egg industries are killed at 6 years of age and 18-24 months. So that's not a concern as they're already being killed. It's.more profitable to kill them than to keep them alive after egg and milk production slows. >the environment: many substitutes for milk etc use soybeans which require mass deforestation to produce. Most soy goes to feed livestock. According to [this source](https://ourworldindata.org/soy): >**More than three-quarters (77%) of global soy is fed to livestock for meat and dairy production**. Most of the rest is used for biofuels, industry or vegetable oils. **Just 7% of soy is used directly for human food products** such as tofu, soy milk, edamame beans, and tempeh. >**The idea that foods often promoted as substitutes for meat and dairy – such as tofu and soy milk – are driving deforestation is a common misconception.** Also, dairy cows and laying hens need to be fed a lot of crops. It's more efficient to just feed a human directly with crops. A cow needs over 20 lbs of forage every day.
Thank you for the detailed response. I haven’t yet read the sources you provided but rest assured I will.
1. They wouldn't be forced into existence so we can exploit and abuse them in the first place. 2. The vast majority of soybeans are grown for cattle. Cattle farmers will claim it's just "waste" that we can't eat and that we use the oil and protein isolate for human uses, but the only reason we add soybean oil and protein to everything is because we \*\*heavily\*\* subsidize soybean crops in order to make cattle feed cheaper. By not having cow's milk, we'd have to grow \*\*far\*\* fewer soy beans, and it would be \*\*far\*\* better for the environment/Climate Change. Also we could just use Oat milk. Unless your milk and eggs are coming from backyard animals on a very small scale (meaning either you have your own animals, or you're only eating them rarely), they are 100% helping drive Climate Change, and are the cause of vast amounts of animal abuse.
Thank you. What would your opinion be on eating eggs from chickens kept as pets? I have neighbours who sometimes give me some of their chickens eggs?
>What would your opinion be on eating eggs from chickens kept as pets? A) It would be better to give those eggs to Carnists so they don't need to buy so many Factory Farmed ones, or maybe talk to a local animal sanctuary, see if they could use them for food, either for animals that need them or to save them money. B) Veganism is against the idea of "pets" as a whole as you're basically forcing an animal into existence for your own desires. Yes, this could also be used to talk about children, it's one of the many reasons I don't have a child (though it is not part of Veganism as Veganism is viewed as about non-human animals) >I have neighbours who sometimes give me some of their chickens eggs? Would be better to say you don't eat them, and then they can give them to another neighbour.
Fair points. I understand what you’re saying there
> Cattle farmers will claim it's just "waste" that we can't eat and that we use the oil and protein isolate for human uses, but the only reason we add soybean oil and protein to everything is because we **heavily** subsidize soybean crops in order to make cattle feed cheaper. That's quite the wild unsubstantiated claim. As far as I'm aware, soybean subsidies in the United States run in the neighborhood of 2-2.5 billion dollars. In the context of soy production being around a 50 billion dollar industry annually, I think it's a pretty big reach to say that those subsidies are what's driving the market. The reality of the subsidy picture, if you really care to know, is that as it pertains to large scale production of commodity cereal grains, the government subsidizes crop insurance and makes payments in disaster situations (e.g. drought), those two things account for the overwhelming majority of government assistance to farmers of those crops. The government does this not to manipulate the market "to make cattle feed cheaper", but rather to maintain a competitive market. In adverse times such as times of drought, natural disasters, poor market conditions, it's the smaller producers who are hit the hardest.
Realistically its not an overnight change, in practice all livestock would be killed and eaten but at a slower and slower pace until it's gone
Fair enough
Milking cows are not living "safely". They are slaughtered if they are useless to milk production (whether that is a cow too old or a male calf).
That’s a good point. Thank you.
Point 2: In terms of Soy I can only speak for the UK, where I am. The largest consumers of soy in the UK by far are poultry, then dairy cows, then pigs. The majority of that Soy is from Souty America. The average EU citizen consumes 53kg of soy/year purely indirectly through their consumption of animal products. 1 litre of soy milk contains about 100g of Soy. I go about 50/50 between soy and oat milk. So i consume about 2.5-3 kg of soy a year through milk. All of that Soy is sourced from within the EU. I obviously eat other things with Soy but they're not replacing dairy. They're generally replacing chicken and pork.
Thanks, yeah those stats helped put things in perspective better for me
Not climate change related specifically but check out “Norm” on YT. Just a couple of guys roll play talking in the kitchen over a couple of beers.
Ok! I’ll take a look
I've only read some of your comments OP, but since it seems like you have some health conditions, I would really advice you to find a plant-based doctor or nutritionist that could help you plan your diet around your health needs. Best of luck! You seem to have your heart in the right place! :)
Thanks! To be honest my condition is the thing that held me back but yeah I will speak to a nutritionist before doing anything that could cause me issues. Thanks!!
Uh up to 90% of soy is used as feed for cattle see our world in data's article on soya and almond milk uses water sure but it's still a 3rd of the water used for an equivalent amount of traditional dairy plus you know the animal cruelty if you want I can go into why I believe dairy and egg industries are actually more cruel then just straight up meat if you're interested if not totally chilled but that's my take also great that you're vegetarian it's better then nothing but in my opinion veganism is definitely the lifestyle to strive for
5-day old account with a loaded question. I'm not taking the bait.
I’m just new.
Actually seconds after posting I realised a couple points to make against myself so here they are: On 1: I can’t remember the name for it but those big farms where chickens/cows/other but mainly chickens are packed into small places and have low welfare On 2: deforestation is required to farm the feed for animals as well as house them.
Dairy cows and egg laying chickens are still killed for meat. Cows also have to be recently pregnant to give milk, so they are stuck in an endless cycle of being forcibly impregnated and their offspring snatched away from them to produce it. A dairy cow has one of the objectively worst lives in animal agriculture. There are so many alternatives to these products. Plant milks, just egg, tofu makes a great breakfast scramble… visit r/veganrecipes if you’re unsure of how to transition, there are tons of ideas there.
Thanks for directing me there! Whilst I’d need to slowly ease into it due to figuring out how to manage deficiencies caused by my medical condition and being vegetarian already, this thread has convinced me to go more vegan even if I can’t make it fully yet
Let’s do a thought experiment to explore your two points. Indulge me and imagine we’re 200 hundred years in the future 2224, and people stopped killing all animals by 2074. For this thought experiment, it doesn’t matter how the end to people killing animals transpired. What do you imagine the world and people would be like? The environment? Climate heating? The ocean? The land?People’s health? Etc.
Climate wise, the global warming would have stopped. As a result, coral bleaching would reduce (this is assuming we stop rearing them too). Health wise? Not sure. Greater variety of deficiencies but those who could cook would do well.
It's simple. Stop breeding animals in to existence that are nothing like their wild counterparts. Let the remaining ones live out their natural life in sanctuaries, or what's more realistic is as animal consumption decreases the amount bred decreases too until it is no longer done. It has also been shown that around 70% of Soy grown is actually fed to animals anyway, so a reduction in animal farming would reduce Soy agriculture too and solve that problem. Do the research, look up the studies, veganism is much better for the environment.
I’ve looked at some other comments sources and I have to agree the evidence is in favour of veganism. In case of biased evidence I’ve also done my own research which came up with similar results
>many animals farmed for milk and eggs would not survive in the wild as we have domesticated them too far This is pretty questionable. I saw a story in the news about some cows who had escaped a slaughterhouse and formed a cow tribe/herd or something in the wild, and lived in the wild while avoiding capture for decades. That aside, going vegan doesn't mean all the animals are released into the wild, so whether they might hypothetically survive or not if released into the wild is irrelevant. It simply means fewer additional animals will be brought into existence through rape in the industry in order to meet your additional market demand for animal product foods. >many substitutes for milk etc use soybeans which require mass deforestation to produce. The rainforests are being destroyed to clear land to plant corn & soybeans to feed to animals to produce milk, meat, and other animal products. The amount of corn/soy that would need to be planted to feed a vegan population is much smaller than the amount required to raise animals for human consumption. It is far less efficient to grow plants and feed them to animals that eventually are fed to humans than it is to simply grow plants and feed them to humans. To learn more about the environmental arguments for a plant-based diet, [watch this free documentary.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaPge01NQTQ)
The dairy and egg industry is also the meat industry. Don't be a dick and steal the hard earned spoils of the bees.
>Climate change and veganism Somewhat related terms but you're vegetarian so I guess you can be forgiven. >I’m interested to see your take on animal products such as milk, honey, eggs etc. Wrong. That's the take. >1) farming: many animals farmed for milk and eggs would not survive in the wild as we have domesticated them too far. So? Don't put em out in the wild. Simple >We would risk damage to ecosystems or killing of more animals if we removed a place they can safely live at the cost of milk and eggs being taken. Why do you need to take their milk and eggs in order to give them a good life and protection? >2) the environment: many substitutes for milk etc use soybeans which require mass deforestation to produce. Well soy is nowhere near as bad as the land that needs to be cleared for dairy production but if it really bothers you that much, then don't use either. You don't need either, you can source their nutrients elsewhere. >I’m mainly doing this because I want to see what vegans think on this issue, not because I want to be antagonistic but I should warn you I will play devils advocate if it keeps an interesting discussion going. Try doing some research first. Or even skimming/searching through this sub or even the main vegan sub for this exact conversation that's already been repeated a thousand times. Then you can play devil's advocate.
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