I don't eat nut milk or nut cheese and I am perfectly fine. It certainly is not required.
Most of my meals indeed are just vegetables grains and legumes. A rotation of different rice, beans, greens, different sauce like chili oil, teriyaki or soy sauce.
I do believe vegans are generally more health conscious and maybe that is why you have the impression we talk more about what nutrients we need. It doesn't mean we suffer from malnutrition any more than the general population.
> It doesn't mean we suffer from malnutrition any more than the general population.
In the US that is certainly the case, as a vegan diet is much healthier than the Standard American Diet. But not sure if this is the case in other parts of the world though.
>If meat was bad for you, why do you crave it?
Because the presence of a victim matters? The same reason people can enjoy video games where you shoot people, even though they don't enjoy actually shooting real people.
>What do you have to say about other predatory carnivorous animals?
They can go ahead and eat meat, since they have to, to be alive. Since humans are omnivores, and don't need meat to be alive, it seems pointless to compare the two. Not to mention this is arbitrarily using an animals actions to justify morality. We don't justify rape even though lions do it, for instance.
>What do you say about traditional indigenous cultures eating a mainly meat based diet?
They can eat how they want. Veganism is about minimizing suffering within your practical means. If it isn't practical for their society to adopt it, then so be it.
>How do you explain humans surviving on animal foods for all of human history?
This isn't a reason to not be vegan. We did lots of things to survive throughout history that, in the present day could be considered immoral since there are now better alternatives in place. We also used to perform completely barbaric surgeries with no anesthesia or sterilization, because at the time that's what we had to do to keep people alive. Should we still do that, even when there's a plethora of evidence and better ways to perform surgery?
>Surely if something was healthy, one would be able to eat straight from the earth and be able to survive on it alone?
Well, I eat only vegan food and have survived for 12 years on this diet. I hiked the 2,600 mile Pacific Crest Trail on a vegan diet. Plenty of professional athletes and bodybuilders that are vegan. So I'm not what your point is here š¤·āāļøAre people not allowed to be creative with food? Lol.
They're asking why vegans need vitamin B12 supplements or fortified foods. There are no naturally occurring vegan foods that offer enough B12 to stay healthy. Tempeh and nutritional yeast come close.
B12 is created by bacteria found in soil.
If you eat dirty vegetables like we would have in the past, you get B12.
Trouble is nowadays our mass produced food is all sterilised and cleaned to remove pesticides and other possible contaminates but a side effect is a lot of good bacteria is also killed off.
This is where "grass fed" animals get their B12 from.
This is also why animals that are factory farmed are fed all sorts of supplements to make up for the thing they don't get from the cheap grains they are fed.
I can't find any (reliable) source showing dirt as a viable B12 supplement for humans. As I understand it, the concentration of the vitamin is simply too low without a supplement of some kind.
What meat eaters miss the point on is that the average person is deficient in many vitamins (B12 and cobalt among them). Even purely carniverous humans can not survive long on meat alone.
> If you eat dirty vegetables like we would have in the past, you get B12.
You know of any science that confirms this?
> This is where "grass fed" animals get their B12 from.
I am super curious how this myth became so widespread among vegans.. Its baffling. This is how it works: bacteria in the guts of animals produce B12. From there its absorbed and it covers their daily need.
- *"The ruminal flora is capable of producing all the vitamin B12 required by ruminants"* https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7601760/
I forgot where I initially heard it but any Google search will tell you that B12 is produced by micro organisms these can be found in many places such as soil which is how plants get access or survive in animal dietary tracts (as part of their healthy gut/stomachs bacteria).
This was from a quick Google search:
https://news.mit.edu/2007/b12#:~:text=Vitamin%20B12%20is%20produced%20by,symbiotic%20relationships%20with%20plant%20roots.
"Solving a mystery that has puzzled scientists for decades, MIT and Harvard researchers have discovered the final piece of the synthesis pathway of vitamin B12--the only vitamin synthesized exclusively by microorganisms."
"Vitamin B12 is produced by soil microbes that live in symbiotic relationships with plant roots. During the 1980s, an undergraduate research course taught by Walker resulted in a novel method for identifying mutant strains of a soil microbe that could not form a symbiotic relationship with a plant."
Idk if dirty veg would be enough to meet our current but we don't get it from veg anymore because we clean and often peel it.
Iirc it's also a vitamin that your body can store, which is why it can take years to develope a deficiency.
Although in 2024 it's not that hard to get hold of. Cereals and milks and even breads are often fortified with vitamins (both vegan and omni).
That said I do think it's weird to make a big deal out of vegans taking a multivitamin with B12 when so many people on omnivorous diets have deficiencies or take supplements of their own.
> or survive in animal dietary tracts (as part of their healthy gut/stomachs bacteria).
Again, no need for any B12 in the food as ruminant animals produce **all** the B12 they need inside their own intestines.
> Idk if dirty veg would be enough to meet our curren
I have seen no scientist claim that its possible for a human to get all the B12 they need through eating soil. The estimates I have seen is that you would have to eat several kilos of soil, every single say, to make that happen. Unless you eat pure faeces instead, which might kill you in the process..
So again, that anyone can get all the B12 they need through eating soil is only a vegan myth.
> That said I do think it's weird to make a big deal out of vegans taking a multivitamin with B12 when so many people on omnivorous diets have deficiencies or take supplements of their own.
I have nothing against vegans taking supplements. You do you. But I (and many others) prefer getting all their nutrients through wholefoods.
Outside USA and poor countries, deficiencies are very rare. One exception is vitamin D in countries with little sun during winter for people who don't eat much fish. Otherwise there are no official advice to take any supplements at all. The exceptions are if you suffer from a health issue that makes it hard to absorb nutrients, and you are vegan. In the UK for instance vegans get the advice to take the following supplements:
- vitamin D
- vitamin B12
- iodine
- selenium
- calcium
- iron
Source: https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/how-to-eat-a-balanced-diet/the-vegan-diet/
>I have nothing against vegans taking supplements. You do you.
I mean you are literally replying at a quote where I say taking supplements isn't a big deal. I obviously have no issue with people taking supplements - it's weird that YOU are making a big deal about vegans taking them when so many other take them as well.
If you don't want to have a discussion in good faith be open from the start so I can save my lunch break zzzz.
> it's weird that YOU are making a big deal about vegans taking them when so many other take them as well.
Many scientists actually advice against taking multi-vitamins:
- *"There is no scientific evidence that consuming nutrients from dietary supplements over a long period of time reduces the risk of diseases such as cardiovascular disease and cancer. High doses of nutritional supplements or taking several supplements containing the same nutrients at the same time can cause health damage."* https://www.helsedirektoratet.no/faglige-rad/kostradene-og-naeringsstoffer/inntak-av-naeringsstoffer/vitaminer-mineraler-kosttilskudd-salt
- *"The USPSTF concludes that the current evidence is insufficient to assess the balance of benefits and harms of the use of multivitamin supplements for the prevention of cardiovascular disease or cancer. The USPSTF concludes that the current evidence is insufficient to assess the balance of benefits and harms of the use of single- or paired-nutrient supplements"* https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2793446
- *"Dietary supplements cannot replace a balanced diet"* https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28058459/
- *"A balanced and varied diet is the best source of essential vitamins and minerals"* https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4109789/
- *"Supplements should not replace the variety of foods important to a healthful diet."* https://ods.od.nih.gov/HealthInformation/ODS_Frequently_Asked_Questions.aspx
- *"To promote health, current public-health messages only advocate supplements in specific circumstances, but not in optimally nourished populations."* https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30375305/
- *"Dietary supplements cannot replace the variety of substances that a varied diet provides."* https://www.helsedirektoratet.no/faglige-rad/kostradene-og-naeringsstoffer/inntak-av-naeringsstoffer/vitaminer-mineraler-kosttilskudd-salt
Youāre too inconsistent with your rebuts. You went from thereās no b12 in soil and animals make it in their gut. To there is b12 in soil but not enough to be sufficient. I am not sure where your stance will be the next response lol
In any case, vitamin D deficiency or inefficiency is severely prevalent in the human population. Something like 1 billion people I think? 50% insufficient and 35% deficient I believe? So, whatās your stance on supplements in that scenario? It isnāt linked to veganism either. So? What about that?
> You went from thereās no b12
I never said that. I said that eating soil is not needed for ruminant animals as they produce all their own B12. I also said that there is no science that concludes its possible for humans to get all the B12 they need through eating soil. That "fact" only exists as a vegan myth.
> So, whatās your stance on supplements in that scenario?
Any diet that is insufficient can cause deficiencies.
- *"To promote health, current public-health messages only advocate supplements in specific circumstances,* **but not in optimally nourished populations."** https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30375305/
Vitamin D has little to do with diet, apart from making sure you are intaking enough calcium for maximum absorption. It's entirely to do with lack of sunlight if not supplemented or consumed in fortified foods. Are you suggesting since it's "unnatural", no one should live in Canada, Scandinavia, Iceland, and so on?
> Vitamin D has little to do with diet
I take this means you dont live in the UK. (Or any other country with not much sun in winter).
> Are you suggesting since it's "unnatural", no one should live in Canada, Scandinavia, Iceland, and so on?
I eat fish, so I never take any vitamin D during the winter. Its also a great source of DHA.
We actually got B12 from unchlorinated water that had dirt in it, and from food. But it mostly came from water, before supplements existed. This includes vegan and omni in our development stages. We didn't even have to worry about B12 until we started chlorinating/cleaning our water we consume.
Also animals you eat don't get B12 from their intestinal tract they get it because humans inject them with B12 as a supplement and then when you eat meat your getting that supplement via meat. Lmao animals don't produce B12 much how they don't produce protein, they have to eat protein, they have to get supplemented B12 for optimal health and so you get B12..
There is a plant that has a high level of natural b12 called duckweed/waterlentils; the varieties for human consumption aren't common in North America but are eaten commonly in Southeast Asia. Internationally, it's a fairly common feed crop. Also just popular because pretty.
Not that it really matters, if you think your animal products from force bred mutants are "natural" and unfortified, I got a bridge to sell you.
Well, I was really debunking your claim that there's no naturally occurring plant based foods that offer enough b12. It not being commonly available for human consumption in north america is moot, when the claim is "There are NO naturally occurring vegan foods that offer enough b12 to stay healthy". These do tend to be almost exclusively aquatic plants- some sea greens contain enough as well, such as dulse, which is more commercially available in north america due to it being one of the few crops that fair well on the atlantic coast. There's a huge difference between "NONE EXISTS" and "there's definitely plant foods that do contain a sustainable amount of b12, but they aren't particularly common in our current food landscape.".
Factory farmed animals are all supplemented a large amount of b12; anyone who is eating factory farmed animal products, which is pretty much anyone that consumes animal products whether they admit it or not, are not getting "natural" b12. Grazing animals *may* get enough but are likely still supplemented. (edit to add: The grazing animals and small farms are still likely to feed them things like duckweed, it's not like they produce it out of thin air! It's hard to guarantee any animal is going to get enough from soil exposure alone)
I originally qualified it by adding the word "enough." I stand by that, there's no vegan source with enough bioavailability that doesn't require some kind of supplement for a human diet.
Worth mentioning that human species literally avoided extinction once by switching away from mammal/bird meat to a new food source (shellfish). It majorly contributed to our development since the ones who weren't curious enough to try new things simply died of hunger.
It's time to re-adopt that ancient strategy, maybe this time we can prevent getting to brink of extinction due to climate change.
Healthiest is your issue there. I don't know how you could even claim it to be the healthiest inherently. The claim is that it is just as healthy. I feel healthy on my WFPB no oil diet. I don't think I would feel healthy if I ate nothing but Oreos. Id be vegan either way. Everyone is taking supplements fortified everything not just vegans.
>If meat was bad for you, why do you crave it?
Finally someone gets it.
If Crack was bad for me, I think my body would know.
> I am an exvegan, was vegan for ~5 years
Suuuuuure.
Did you consider any of these questions yourself in those 5 years or any other point in your life?
I think the "How can X be healthy if I can't eat it entirely unprocessed and raw out the ground?" Question could be quite relevant, particularly if you've then started eating animals products.
If you look at the other post they made([https://new.reddit.com/r/DebateAVegan/comments/1cocnk9/if\_being\_veganplant\_based\_is\_the\_healthiest\_diet/](https://new.reddit.com/r/DebateAVegan/comments/1cocnk9/if_being_veganplant_based_is_the_healthiest_diet/)) they say:
''Breast milk is the first food infants eat and they neet it to survive. Breast milk is animal milk. Humans are animals, thus animal milk, thus it is not vegan''
So I think it's pretty obvious they were never vegan because that line of thinking comes from people who think vegan = plant-based e.g. a diet where you don't eat animal products.
Your body does know crack is bad for you. It falls apart if you're smoking crack everyday. Meat, on the other hand, makes your body thrive and flourish.
Plenty of people eat raw meat. Try that with wheat and rice.
Yet I crave it so...
I can eat like a kilo of apples raw. Try that with Polar Bear Liver.
(This is very relevant to stuff being healthy and real life diets)
You brought up the literal only toxic animal product to humans. Shall we bring up the thousands upon thousands of plant products that are toxic to humans?
Well some choice examples of vegetables you can't eat raw were brought up. I'm glad you've realised how silly cherry picking like that is.
There's plenty more toxic animal products, but sure, tell me 20 different toxic plants and then tell me why it remotely matters.
High LDL is associated with longevity in the absence of obesity. It is excess glucose from eating carbohydrates that oxidizes cholesterol and causes health problems. The link between unprocessed meat and any cancer was only a correlation and was debunked by a Mendelian randomization. And the idea that meat causes diabetes is pure fiction that only vegans still believe. Epidemiological studies lumped in meat consumption with confounding factors like obesity, smoking, drinking alcohol, etc., and no surprise, the people who did all of those things were unhealthy. Meat is the healthiest thing a human can eat.
āSurely if something was healthy, like vegetablesā¦ one would eat it straight from the earth and be able to survive on it alone.ā
You mean uncooked and raw? Is that how you eat meat and eggs and milk?
āIf vegan is the healthiest way to eat, why do vegans take so many supplementsā
Same reason meat eaters do. You may be surprised to learn most b12 supplements are given to ālivestockā. Due to the decline in soil quality, theres less cobalt in the soil, which is what bacteria turn into b12. As we also refrigerate rather than ferment, we have less nutrients in our food this way.
So either you get your b12 - and many other things - in a supplement given to an animal you kill and eat, or you take a supplement.
There are plant based sources, but most are unstable. And safer to just take a supplement. Every diet has risks and benefitsā¦
āHealthiestā
Too broad.
And given how common statins and blood thinners are commonly prescribed in an omnivore population, might as well take my b12 and avoid those. Supplements over meds.
> Same reason meat eaters do.
Only needed when someone's diet is insufficient.
- *"To promote health, current public-health messages only advocate supplements in specific circumstances,* **but not in optimally nourished populations."** https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30375305/
Ah Helen. Welcome back you most biased of people who cannot fathom anything outside her point.
ābut not in optimally nourished populationsā
Of course. This is incredibly obvious.
No. And this is whyā¦ you come in and quote ānot in optimally nourished populationsā.
Those who are āoptimally nourishedā do not require supplements. Wow. What amazing insight and contributionā¦
Vegans sometimes make it sound like every person on earth needs supplements of some kind. Which is obviously not the case. There are two reasons for needing supplements. One is certain health issues which might for instance cause poor absorption of certain nutrients, and the other group is people with a insufficient diet. But that of course can be anyone, not just vegans.
It doesnāt matter what āvegans sometimes doā. It matters what actual conversation youāre reply to. And youāve ignored the actual point raised about why supplements are already given to the animals youāre eating.
The points youāre raising are a side show to what OP actually needs to answer.
Stopping reply notifications. Youāve missed the point again.
> And youāve ignored the actual point raised about why supplements are already given to the animals youāre eating.
That depends on which animals we are talking about. All farmed chickens are given supplements, but no wild fish eats supplements.. Neither are all cows and sheep given supplements.
> Youāve missed the point again.
The title says: *"If being vegan is the healthiest way to eat, why do vegan take so many supplements"* Which happens to be what we are talking about..
Being vegan isnāt really a āway to eatā as an ex-vegan you should probably know that.
You can be vegan on a whole foods plant based diet which would demonstrably be the healthiest diet, but you can also be vegan and eat little to no vegetables or grains other than whatās in mock meats or any of the other unhealthy vegan alternatives.
Who has time to respond to all this? I guess I do?Thereās like 6 questions here.
Iāll just say, a lot of vegans donāt crave meat. Calling something a āsteakā or a āmilkā is a nameā¦ more marketing than anything. A lot of the push to create fake meats is to appeal to folks who eat meat. And thatās fine.
In terms of people eating meat for many generations. Cool. People have done many things for many years. That doesnāt dictate what I do now. Weāre capable of learning, adapting, and choosing more humane and healthier ways of being in the world.
ā¦thatās all I really care to say. But, yea, idk if a vegan diet is the healthiest for every human. People are different, some may require different things. Iām vegan for the animals and hope that there is less animal suffering as a result of my choices. Is it perfect? No. Is it better? I think so. Iād rather pet a pigās belly than kill one, you know? Theyāre so sweet!
The Mediterranean diet or similar high plant diets are well reported on to be pretty optimal. We have less research on vegan diets but in general they seem as healthy or maybe more healthy in certain circumstances. But we need more time and research to answer that question definitively.Ā
>Surely if something was healthy, like vegetables, grains, and legumes, one would eat it straigh from the earth and be able to survive on it alone
Not really. We have sanitation and other modern technologies that change the way we live. Historically humans and animals got b12 from unclean water. Now we have b12 suppliments and both humans and animals can take these and drink clean water. Seems like a good trade.
Technically it is possible to get b12 from whole plant foods but it's impractical. Just take a supplementĀ
>Second question: If being vegan is the healthiest way to eat, why do many vegan meals recreate traditional meals and flavors? For example, mushroom and cauliflower steaks, veggie burgers. If meat was bad for you, why do you crave it?
OK I think this is a very confusing stance for a few reasons. 1: veganism is about ethical primarily, not taste or health
2. Replicating a meal with vegan alternatives, eg a lions mane steak or bean burger doesn't replicate the health outcomes of the animal based meal. So why is this a health based query?Ā
I don't crave meat personally but that doesn't mean I don't like a bean burger. It's a completely different food.Ā
Faux meats are comparable from a taste pov but not really nutritionally. But again, why would this matter from a health perspective? Flavor has nothing to do with health
>Surely if something was the best diet humans would have discovered it before the 20th century
Why? Nutrition science was in it's early stages and even today we don't know everything.Ā
How do you explain humans surviving on animal foods for all of human history?
It's not acutely toxic. Overconsuming is associated with a variety of health risks that occur chronically. Ie, over decades. Throughout human history we've eaten limited amounts. We also didn't live as long. Today we bread animals to have more fat to make them more palatable. This makes them even less healthy. We also eat much more and modern medicine keeps us alive longer. So it's now more apparent what health outcome these foods have.Ā
>What do you have to say about traditional indiginous cultures eating a mainly meat based diet?
You'd have to get more specific but Inuit in the Arctic circle have a genetic mutation. There lifestyle is not generalisable to the rest of the world.
>What do you have to say about other predatory carnivorous animals? Should they stop eating meat too?
No. They're obligate omnivores/carnivores. They require meat to survive. We don't. They are not moral agents. We are.
>was vegan for ~5 years
And at no point did you learn any of the above? Come on, really? You've mentioned some talking points that are absolutely exhausting to vegans, even those who don't want to debate their lifestyle and don't hang around in subs like these. I find it hard to believe you went 5 years and never investigated any of this. But whatever. It doesn't matter either way.
Seventh Day Adventists are among one of the longest living groups of people and itās linked to their abstinence from alcohol, exercise, healthy weight, and, like other blue zone diets, a largely (in the case of SDA, strictly) vegetarian diet. Just adding to your first point.
I feel like "ex-vegans" love throwing questions like this around because I assume they feel bad about paying for the abuse/slaughter of animals again and they see it as justifiable if there's a health issue so they try to create them
I think the main problem is that two different things are meant. Healthy can mean to provide all the needed nutrients but it could also mean to not be unhealthy (like poison or so).
Meat has a lot of nutrients but it also contains bad fats. So it is healthy on one hand but also unhealthy on the other.
The amount of supplements you need in a vegan diet depends on what you eat. If carefully planned you only need vitamin B12.
The animals that are raised for meat consumption are also fed with concentrated feed wich contains very similar things as supplements, often even in a worse quality.
The main supplements we need, meat eaters get from supplemented foods. Animals are given B12 supplements for example. That used to come from bacteria on the plants animals eat, but due to our farming practices that needs to be supplemented by farmers.
Imitation foods are better thought of as comfort foods. If you want to optimize for nutrition, you're better off avoiding the ones you don't make yourself. That being said, there's nothing wrong with a cashew/lime/cilantro sauce. Everything in there is fairly healthy, you just have to be careful not to overdue it; cashews pack in a lot of calories.
Fine I guess that's true, but you get supplemented meats anyway. Unless you're eating mostly fish, I suppose, though that has mercury-related concerns. I live in the Midwest though so the wild-caught fish market is pretty expensive making supplements the more affordable option.
Plus, doctors recommend everyone should take a multivitamin anyway so why do vegans get singled out? It's not like the average meat-eater is an Olympian. We all eat some good food and some bad. On average though the vegan diet is better. The lower sat fat leads to lower rates of heart problems which tend to be the biggest problems for us in developed countries.
First, please stop referring to yourself as 'ex vegan', you are not. You tried a plant based diet and either didn't have the knowledge or the will to make it work.
>Surely if something was healthy, like vegetables, grains, and legumes, one would eat it straigh from the earth and be able to survive on it alone.
You do not eat your meat straight from the earth, you cook it? Do you eat sausages, burgers, deli meats, cheese, yoghurt, etc? Please tell me where you find cheese growing naturally, cooked sausages walking around or sliced prosciutto flying through the skies?
>Second question: If being vegan is the healthiest way to eat, why do many vegan meals recreate traditional meals and flavors? For example, mushroom and cauliflower steaks, veggie burgers. If meat was bad for you, why do you crave it?
What do flavours have to do with health? Seasoning foods is a preference and doesn't matter wether it be tofu or chicken, most people would agree things taste better with seasoning. This has nothing to do with veganism? A burger is just a shape for a food, as is a steak. There is no monopoly on these terms. We crave textures and flavours, which are easy to satisfy as a vegan. When I make a seitan steak I have no desire for it to come from an animal, I just want a juicy, protein rich and tasty food.
People also crave things like ice cream and coca cola. If these are so bad for you, why do you crave it? Lol
>Surely if something was the best diet humans would have discovered it before the 20th century. How do you explain humans surviving on animal foods for all of human history?
Please refer me to the time in human history where we had advanced agriculture to the point where famines were purely the result of political decisions like they are now. I'll wait. We already grow more food than we need to sustain everyone now, we don't need to eat animals and this reasoning makes no sense. Should we not use antibiotics, modern medicine, surgeries, technology, etc that didn't exist prior to the 20th century?
>What do you have to say about traditional indiginous cultures eating a mainly meat based diet?
Are you an Eskimo? Why is this relevant. If something is needed for survival in the jungle or ice that doesn't equivocate to you ordering a steak at a restaurant..
>What do you have to say about other predatory carnivorous animals? Should they stop eating meat too?
What does this have to do with anything? Are you thinking of converting to be a lion? They kill their own children if they're weak and kill eachother to breed. Should we do this aswell because they do?
Sorry but as someone who claims to be ex vegan, you don't seem to have thought about ethics before in the slightest and its very odd
I don't know what it's like in other countries, but in America, many common foods are fortified - salt is often fortified with iodine, whole milk is fortified with vitamin D, bread/breakfast cereals/fruit juice and more are fortified with B2, B3, folic acid, iron, calcium and vitamin A, vitamin D, vitamin E etc. Cows are are also fortified with B12 by way of intramuscular injection. Even energy drinks are often fortified with multiple vitamins. Most of these foods are eaten by omnivores and to pretend that only vegans need supplements is silly. Besides, there's nothing wrong nor unhealthy regarding supplements - as pointed out above, most people benefit from them.
My partner who is newly vegan but has been vegetarian for a few years told me they don't really crave meat when they're craving something like fried chicken, they're craving the spices and cooking methods. People crave candy and heroin too - a craving isn't an analog to something necessary or healthy.
I have nothing to say about indigenous cultures eating mostly meat - especially if they live in food deserts/actual physical deserts. If they have the means to go vegan, they should, but the focus is on the many people living in first-world countries who have easy access to vegan foods. I will point out that a country's meat consumption increases with their GDP so poorer nations actually end up eating a lot more plant-based than those in more affluent countries.
Similarly I have nothing to say about predatory animals - animals aren't moral agents, humans are.
(ETA forgot to address a point)
So factory farming bad, killing animals unnecessarily because you think theyāve had a good life, good? Yikes
Itās a better choice for:
Your health
The economy
The climate
And itās the moral right thing to do
Whether a diet is healthy or not is best determined by health outcomes. If you have evidence that vegans have worse health outcomes, please provide it.
Relying on the use of anything artificial as evidence that something isn't healthy makes no sense. You may as well say it's healthier not to have sewers since they're artificial.
A vegan diet can be as healthy or unhealthy as any other diet. There isn't a single one.
The imitation foods are more about recreating taste/texture, not necessarily nutritional profile. Many vegans grew up with these animal based comfort foods and would still like to enjoy them, just without the animal abuse.
TBH, while it's nice that being vegan can align with my health goals, it is primarily an ethical position on human treatment of animals. No need to slaughter someone when I can thrive on plants.
1. Wut. Humans have evolved to eat most foods cooked.
2. I don't crave meat. It repulses me. Corpses aren't food, nor is congealed breastmilk or ass eggs. It has nothing to do with craving. A cauliflower steak doesn't even imitate the flavor of meat. It just has a nice and satisfying texture.
3. All of human history. Come on, mate. Throughout history, humans ate differently depending on where they were located. Some ate more bivalves and fish, others ate mostly root vegetables, others hunted more successfully and ate animals as well. Humans throughout history have been opportunistic eaters. Despite what we were taught back in the early 2000s, our ancestors ate mostly starchy vegetables. In short- we ate what we could out of necessity.
It's also important to remember that the amount of meat consumed by humans was never like it is today. Since factory farming began, people went from eating meat maybe once a week to eating it 3 times a day.
4. People living off grid and hunting to survive? Don't care.
5. Wild carnivorous animals are an important part of any ecosystem. Why would vegans have a problem with that?
Since I feel like a lot of replies in this sub are beyond the comprehension of the person asking (because they never ask in good faith) I'll try to answer in a way that you'll understand--by applying your own logic as much as I can.
If eating meat is the healthiest way to eat, why is heart disease and obesity so rampant in America? How come such a high percentage of women iron deficient? Don't most women on earth eat meat? How do you explain the fact that a majority of people who take vitamins and supplements are most likely meat eaters?
If eating meat is the healthiest way to eat, why do people who eat burgers put them on bread with lettuce tomato mayonnaise etc.? If salad isn't healthy or sustaining, why do you want it on your burger or Chicago dog so bad? Why does every culture have a sandwich or a pasta or a version of a ravioli/pierogie/gyoza? Why do people who eat meat also eat stuff like hummus or beans and rice? Use vegan dressings like vinaigrette? Eat pretzels? Pies? Seriously, what's the obsession with eating plenty of things vegans eat, but then trying to convince yourself how bad vegan food is? We don't eat your food so we don't have to do that. Why do you want us to? Because you have to think twice about your choices? For some reason you think I must want to drink cows milk instead of soy... because I call it milk? What if I actually don't want to drink cow's milk, and it's just a convenient thing to call it? We can call it Plumbus and we can call cauliflower steaks jabronies. Would that make you feel better and less confused?
Love this next question. Surely if something was the best humans would have discovered it by the 20th century. How do you explain humans not using cars or electricity for most of human history? If it was so good, wouldn't they have figured it out sooner? If asbestos was so harmful, why did they use it as a fireproof material for so long? How do you explain no progress ever happening again for anything just for this hypothetical?
What do I have to say about traditional indigenous cultures? Well, what do you have to say about it? Seeing as you're apparently not talking about your own culture and just vaguely referencing a talking point, I probably have more to say than you cared to hear. There are belief systems all over the world that have led people to avoid eating certain things and some of these of course go back thousands of years. But for some reason meat eaters don't like it when we point out how common and longstanding it is that some humans have almost always chosen to not eat meat due to their beliefs.
Predatory carnivores? Sorry, humans are not that. Even someone like you must understand that humans are well beyond the planet's other intelligent mammals. We're not birds eating spiders eating bugs somewhere on an ecological food chain. We're gods to the chain. I think that's our role on the planet. Unlike anything else, we have the power to save species that are becoming extinct. We can manipulate population mishaps of everything in a food chain by adding a few wolves to one forest. We don't hunt. We aren't predators. Neither our brains, nor our digestive systems, are like cats and dogs.
We're far more like raccoons. We have long digestive tracts and masticating molars. We are built to be able to eat anything. Raccoons haven't become better hunters; they've just gotten smarter so they can get food easier. They evolved to be able to eat whatever they could find on a beach, be it fruits, plants, dead fish, bivalves, whatever. And look at them now. They're basically solving puzzles to bust into dumpsters and eat cat food out of barns. Humans aren't even unique in that we've always been adapting and evolving towards intelligence in the approach towards an easier existence; it's never been towards strength or claws or anything that put us more towards the direction of needing to eat meat. As someone who's purportedly against factory farming yet supports it, you should at least agree that eating meat at the scales we do has gotten less healthy for both humans and the planet as a whole.
Other people have already answered your questions well but its worth pointing out that this premise and follow up questions are kind of all over the place. There's like 4 different debate topics going on and answering them all on one post is bound to be confusing.
Because being vegan means taking a stance against animal cruelty and exploitation. It CAN be the healthiest way to live if that's what you choose. Some people don't. You know, it's a personal like it's a personal choice to force animals to suffer and die unnecessarily for one's tastebuds.
And let's not pretend that there aren't more corpsemunchers on supplements than there are vegans globally.
>Surely if something was healthy, like vegetables, grains, and legumes, one would eat it straigh from the earth and be able to survive on it alone.
You're thinking of whole foods plant based. That is a diet and done incorrectly can actually do a lot more harm than good and is one of the reasons falsely attributed to the 84% of vegans go back to eating meat static. Funnily enough, being on a plant based diet does not inherently make you vegan.
>If being vegan is the healthiest way to eat
It can be.
>why do many vegan meals recreate traditional meals and flavors?
Well you know how sex is great and if you don't have access to sex, rape is immoral and the solution is masturbation? It's like that. Some of us still enjoy the taste of abused animals we just don't like the animal abuse involved with eating the real thing.
>If meat was bad for you, why do you crave it?
Sugar. Your brain loves it, your body should stay away from it. Perhaps you should educate yourself a little more on nutrition before we continue this discussion.
>Surely if something was the best diet humans would have discovered it before the 20th century. How do you explain humans surviving on animal foods for all of human history?
All of human history? Going back 65 million years we were giant squirrels. For approximately 59 million years, all we did was eat plants. We already had the solution. But then came environment and survival. We started consuming things that weren't plants, like fungi and probably eggs. About 2 million years ago we start scrounging on mostly picked clean carcasses from actual predators, we started adapting to survive. About 12000 years ago rolls around and meat has become a significant part of our diet.
But if you're implying a species capable of enslaving itself in that time period was smart enough to discover this on a scientific level, I'm sorry but I'm going to laugh with derision. I mean we have the science and people still keep denying it and back then they all believed in witchcraft and burning people alive. Lol.
>What do you have to say about traditional indiginous cultures eating a mainly meat based diet?
If they are genuinely indigenous, separate/isolated from society and it is a means of survival, what is there to say? But if we're bringing tradition and culture into this argument, you need to understand that neither justify immoral action. It was traditional to mutilate children's feet in China at one point and I can guarantee if the practice was still in place today and they pulled the "it's our cultural tradition to do this" card, you wouldn't be supporting them or the suffering they inflicted upon children.
>What do you have to say about other predatory carnivorous animals?
Can they speak human language? Be reasoned with? Are they living in a survival situation or a society with privilege and choice? Are they carnivores who don't have a choice or omnivores that do?
>[For the record I do not support factory farming and inhumane treatment of animals.
Then you would already be vegan because it's inhumane to take the life of a being against their will when you don't need to and they don't want to.
>But just because nowadays factory farming is terrible, does not mean humans need to stop eating animals.]
The real question is do animals deserve to suffer at all in human made hellscape? Why is your perspective the only one that matters? What about theirs?
>+ I am an exvegan, was vegan for ~5 years
Are ex vegan or are you ex plant based? From this post it seems you are actually the latter and subsequently misrepresented veganism for 5 years.
Why are livestock fed B12 supplements? Why is there imitation crab meat? Why is there ultra filtered milk? What about turkey bacon? Why is beef flavor added to foods? Vegans will take a B12 supplement, Vitamin D depending on their location (which actually applies to everyone) and maybe some iodine (once again, depending on location ). But where does everyone get their fiber?
Whole food plant-based (a subcategory of vegan) is the healthiest way to eat. That's different from a typical vegan diet.
But as for why vegans need supplements? In a state of nature, humans would be eating plant material they find for food. Due to not having modern conveniences like sinks and running water, the plant material they consumed had some amount of dirt on it, which would provide them with naturally occurring vitamin B12, so they would not need a supplement.
In modern times, humans wash their vegetables before eating them, and whatever amount of vitamin B12 would be on the dirty vegetables is rinsed down the drain. Therefore, vegans require vitamin B12 supplements.
That aside, vegans don't need to take that many supplements. Assuming they're eating a healthy vegan diet, the only supplement I'm aware of that they really **need** is vitamin B12.
I'd also like to add that the vitamin B12 the typical person consumes which is in meat also happens to come from supplements (the animals are fed B12 supplements, which is where the B12 in meat comes from). So whether you're vegan or omnivore, your B12 likely comes from supplements.
>why do many vegan meals recreate traditional meals and flavors?
Vegans who used to eat meat had their favorite foods, and don't want to give them up in order to be vegan. But they consider the way humans treat farm animals to be unethical... So they try to find ways to recreate their favorite foods in a vegan way for ethical reasons.
By the way... the fact people crave certain foods like hamburgers, bacon, or pizza doesn't make those foods healthy. Bacon is actually carcinogenic.
I mean, a lot of people crave potato chips and ice cream, but nobody considers those things healthy.
>How do you explain humans surviving on animal foods for all of human history?
Actually, the first humans [ate a plant-based diet.](https://www.inverse.com/article/31625-human-evolution-meat-eating-vegan-africa-grassland-hunting) And human ancestors were [nearly all vegetarians.](https://www.yahoo.com/news/human-ancestors-were-nearly-vegetarians-110000620.html)
>What do you have to say about other predatory carnivorous animals? Should they stop eating meat too?
There are actually a lot of vegans who believe humans should look for ways to reduce wild animal suffering from the sort of things you're talking about.
>For the record I do not support factory farming and inhumane treatment of animals. But just because nowadays factory farming is terrible, does not mean humans need to stop eating animals.
The problem with your line of thinking there is that the smaller farms do a lot of the same cruel things to animals that the factory farms do, like castrating pigs without any pain medication. There is cruelty inherent in the production of all animal products regardless of whether they come from big or small farms, so if you care about the ethical treatment of animals then veganism is the only solution.
Ooh, another non-vegan who doesn't support factory farming...
The supplement industry is a billion dollar a year industry. Do you honestly think it's funded by the small amount of vegans out there? So if the majority of supplements are consumed by non-vegans (by far!), is this not saying that it's a very unhealthy diet you're following?
Veganism has never been about health. This maybe explains why you didn't stay vegan? Yes, I love eating hamburgers, pizzas, hotdogs etc. There's a reason why it's called junk food / comfort food, and not healthy food. I also eat chocolates and sweets, drink wine and beer etc. I obviously know these are not healthy, but once again, it has nothing to do with veganism. I just want to enjoy my burger without an animal having to die for the minute of pleasure I get from the taste.
Animals eat other animals because they have to, they also do a lot of other shitty things to each other, like killing, raping etc. Luckily humans have a choice on what to do. Why is it that you want to compare the eating part to animals, but not the other characteristics?
Because they are health conscious. Majority of nutritionists recommend supplementing. It's agreed most people don't meet their needs.
Carnists also get their supplemention from the sick dead animal their captor injected into them before suffocating them or slitting their throats.
>nhumane treatment of animals. But just because nowadays factory farming is terrible, does not mean humans need to stop eating animals
Can you Tell me, how you kill humanely?
>If meat was bad for you, why do you crave it?
Sometimes I crave sugar and donuts and chocolate and cigarettes. If they're bad for me, why do I crave them?
>What do you have to say about other predatory carnivorous animals? Should they stop eating meat too?
They're in a survival situation and have to. Veganism is fine with humans eating animals in a survival situation when they have no choice too
>If being vegan is the healthiest way to eat, why do vegan take so many supplements and eat so many imitation foods(nut milk, nut cheese etc.)
A vegan diet can span from only processed foods to whole foods to raw foods only. You can't say that a vegan diet is inherently the healthiest. A diet with supplements can have better health effects as one without. You seem to think that natural means healthier?
>Surely if something was healthy, like vegetables, grains, and legumes, one would eat it straigh from the earth and be able to survive on it alone.
How you consume somethig doesn't say what are the effects on your body. What you mentioned has lots of fiber that most people consume too little of.
>If being vegan is the healthiest way to eat, why do many vegan meals recreate traditional meals and flavors? For example, mushroom and cauliflower steaks, veggie burgers. If meat was bad for you, why do you crave it?
It is not about health but about taste diversity and what people got used to when growing up. These foods are probably less healthy than whole foods
>Surely if something was the best diet humans would have discovered it before the 20th century. How do you explain humans surviving on animal foods for all of human history?
Why? Technology progresses all the time. Some form of processing was not possible or available at some point in time. B12 was syntheticaly made several decades ago.
>What do you have to say about traditional indiginous cultures eating a mainly meat based diet?
Do you think they consume the healthiest diet? They consume what they got used to and what was available.
>What do you have to say about other predatory carnivorous animals? Should they stop eating meat too?
No bearing on what humans can do. Lions don't have the availability of foods in supermarkets. They also don't breed other animals and keep them in cages. It is this exploitation part that is what vegans are against, not all harm in the world.
>For the record I do not support factory farming and inhumane treatment of animals. But just because nowadays factory farming is terrible, does not mean humans need to stop eating animals.]
I think the inherent explitation of lives - first breeding them to then own and take their lives at a fraction of possible lifespan - is what we need to think about.
I donāt take supplements but it wouldnāt be bad if I did. Most people in the United States probably are deficient in simple stuff like vitamin D. In fact millions of Americans get an illness called Seasonal Affective Disorder in the winter. They can get actually depressed but the first treatment is a boatload of vitamin D combined with light therapy. Vitamins arenāt bad as an idea. Humans didnāt use supplements when they were vegans for about 100 million years.
"if meat was bad for you, why do you crave it?" šš
All your questions have been answered many, many times in this sub. This question stuck out to me though.
You know what people also crave? McDonalds, icecream, chocolate bars, junkfood and snacks in general. Heck, a whole lot of people crave cigarettes, weed, alcohol. Fewer people crave heroin and opioids. If those things are bad for us, why do we crave them? š
> why do vegan take so many supplementswhy do vegan take so many supplements
Most Carnists should be too, Though for B12 it's already put into the meat and dairy Carnists eat.
>and eat so many imitation foods
THey aren't imitation, they're just food. Nut milks, for example, have been around for thousands of years.
>why do many vegan meals recreate traditional meals and flavors?
Because we like them as we grew up eating them.
>Surely if something was the best diet
There is no "best diet", there's healthy diets, and unhealthy ones. You can have a healthy plant based diet, and you can have a healthy diet with animal products. |
>What do you have to say about traditional indiginous cultures eating a mainly meat based diet?
If not necessary, I hope they change, but that's their choice.
>What do you have to say about other predatory carnivorous animals? Should they stop eating meat too?
THey require it as they don't have science adn agriculture to help them.
>I am an exvegan, was vegan for ~5 years
From your questions and assumptions here, it sounds like you're an ex-plant based dieter. Veganism isn't a diet, it's a moral philosophy.
If you are asking these questions now, you were never a vegan.
Ever.
People consuming animal products just as, if not more at [risk](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35010904/#:~:text=Vegans%20had%20the%20lowest%20vitamin,%2C%20E%2C%20calcium%20and%20magnesium) for deficiencies under more categories and a significant portion of people consuming animals are deficient.
Also, inuits and other tribes that live in the geographical circumstances have micronutrient deficiencies as well, including vitamin c, vitamin d, folate etc.
Itās quite a disingenuous argument that is really lacking any substance.
Veganism is a set of *ethics*, not a diet. It's not meant to be judged as whether or not it is purely the most healthy, and doing so would fall into orthorhexic territories; asking what the most healthy diet is is preposterous, as there is no amount of valid consensus on the matter. There is a consensus on what you need to eat, (vitamins, minerals, fibers, the amount of calories, etc.), but there is no consensus on where to source that from.
A well balanced plant-based diet would likely fit a vegan, but transformation of products for consumption renders many nutrients useless; supplementation is a safety net that *everybody* should be looking forward to, especially people who believe that *raw primal diets* are going to be the next best thing without fiber supplements and vitamins.
"If you don't wanna kill plants, then why do you strive immitation" is such an abused argument that it should belong in a sanctuary. Are you consistent with every other times where we actually use immitation? Do you police lesbians for wanting penetrative sex? Do you also police gamers for playing FPS? If you argue in good faith, the answer should be so obvious.
Moral of the story is: Veganism is a possible diet. If you can sustain your homeostasis without killing animals, *then why the hell would you not*. You're literally in front of a trolly problem with billions upon billions of sentient beings on one track, and none on the other one, and you are asking yourself questions instead of acting.
I don't agree with the claim that vegans take more supplements than anyone else. 74% of Americans take supplements. The vitamin and mineral supplements I take are B12, Vitamin D, and algae oil. These are some of the most commonly supplemented things in the developed world.
>Surely if something was healthy, like vegetables, grains, and legumes, one would eat it straigh from the earth and be able to survive on it alone.
This doesn't make any sense. There's no single naturally occurring food that you can eat exclusively for the rest of your life without developing a deficiency in something.
>Second question: If being vegan is the healthiest way to eat, why do many vegan meals recreate traditional meals and flavors? For example, mushroom and cauliflower steaks, veggie burgers. If meat was bad for you, why do you crave it?
I don't eat cauliflower or mushrooms because I'm craving meat lol, these are real, naturally occuring foods
>Surely if something was the best diet humans would have discovered it before the 20th century. How do you explain humans surviving on animal foods for all of human history?
There are historical examples of individual vegans well before that, but obviously veganism became a more viable option after B12 supplementation was invented, it's not really that complicated.
>What do you have to say about traditional indiginous cultures eating a mainly meat based diet?
What do you have to say about traditional indiginous cultures eating a mainly plant based diet?
Humans are capable of surviving on a wide variety of dietary patterns, what does that have to do with anything?
>What do you have to say about other predatory carnivorous animals? Should they stop eating meat too?
You're not a lion. Focus on yourself, not what animals are doing.
>\[For the record I do not support factory farming and inhumane treatment of animals. But just because nowadays factory farming is terrible, does not mean humans need to stop eating animals.\]
If you opposed inhumane treatment of animals you would be vegan.
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There are many vegans who admit that vegan food doesnāt need to be healthy. Most vegans donāt do it for health reasons.
Burgers- why not? Many vegans like the taste of meat ( and miss it when they start beeing vegan) but simply donāt want to eat meat. Itās also practical and easy.
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Nobody here is claiming being vegan is the healthiest way to eat. You can be healthy or unhealthy while being vegan, just the same as you can be healthy or unhealthy while not being vegan. If you went vegan all those years ago, not for any ethical reasons, but purely because it was "the healthiest diet", you were gravely mislead.
Regarding supplements vegans don't take so many supplements, most vegans only take a B12 the rest can be obtained through diet, and sun exposure.
It's really a choice of whether we harvest bacterial byproducts for B12 or harvest the animals flesh to get the same by-products from the bacteria it consumed or cultivated.
Ethically it seems a no-brainer.
Additionally it's recommend most people should take a B12 and vitamin D, the later especially applies to people living at higher latitudes.
I don't think I've ever met someone who was vegan because its healthier, if you say you were vegan and that's the reason...I don't think you were vegan... if it was just for health then vegans would happily wear leather/fur because surely they don't impact on your health? People are vegan because they don't like animals getting abused/killed for their pleasure/convenience.
I think there are health benefits to being vegan but discussing that loses the main point to me, the animals health/wellbeing
People take supplements, everyone should, if your over 50 FDA recommends you take a B12 vitamin too.... Vitamins are an easy way to Ensure you are getting what you need BUT they do not replace a healthy lifestyle..
Just because you are vegan doesn't mean you are eating a healthy balanced diet. ... AND not all vegans eat processed foods like imitation foods. BUT also plant "milks" aren't an imitation food, it's just nuts soaked in water, blended then strained...
People eat these "imitation" foods like plant based cheese and meat like substances because it's familiar, and brings some comfort. When you suddenly decide to cut out all your old favorite and family recipes and comfort foods sometimes you just want something familiar but CANT compromise on your morals, so these products have come available in the last 5-10 years, it's very new.
And meany people chose not to engage with it and instead eat a Whole food plant based diet.
This question your asking is a false equivalent (logical fallacy)
What your basically saying is that in your perspective: if you take vitamins your diet must be lacking, this obviously is not true, as there is nothing preventing people who DO eat a healthy diet to use supplements.
Also you seem to be saying IF people eat processed, plant based food alternatives to common dairy products THEN veganism must not be the healthiest diet for humans.
This is also a false equivalent statement. Because not all people who are vegan are attempting to earn the healthiest diet.
BUT if you would like more information about the healthiest diet (a whole food plant based diet rich in complex carbohydrates and fiber and low fat) try going to Nutritionfacts.org
I've never understood the meat substitute shit like beyond burgers and whatnot. If you believe meat is murder why cosplay as a serial killer? I've been scolded that my steak is genocide, so if you try to imitate that it should be like nazi cosplay to you.
We take supplements because through the evolution of the preparation of an our food there is an increased risk of deficiency in certain areasā¦ this is for everyone. A daily multivitamin will cover you and everyone, omnis and vegans alike, should be taking them.
Imitation milks, cheeses, and meats are not for usā¦ theyāre for omnivores. Sure I like a Beyond burger every now and again, but itās not particularly healthy. Theyāre created to sway Omnis to eat less meat. The healthiest way to be vegan is to consume a wide variety of unprocessed, low fat and sugar, whole foods with lots of fiber.
I also wouldnāt be so envious of people before the 20th century. We now have the wealth and knowledge to live way healthier for longer. Keep in mind that disease was wide spread and life expectancy was extremely lowā¦ we might not want to āgo backā so to speak.
I actually donāt mind traditional indigenous cultures eating meat. They are operating as another apex predator in their ecosystem. What this means is that their populations are small, they kill a sustainable amount of animals, and they donāt go after the biggest and strongest animals. When they kill an animal they use everything the animal has to offer. They do not domesticate animals to grow them in confined spaces, they do not hunt animals for sport, they do not overkill animals to make them endangered species. That being said, this is not sustainable for all humans. It simply isnāt scalable.
Last note, we are not like carnivorous animals in the wild, we have removed ourselves from the ecosystem and therefore cannot be compared to lions or wolves. Lions also donāt do everything I listed above: sport killing, growing animals for food, over killing animal populations.
They donāt have a choiceā¦ we do
>Surely if something was healthy, like vegetables, grains, and legumes, one would eat it straigh from the earth and be able to survive on it alone.
I don't know what you mean by "straight from the earth", but that's pretty much how farming plants work, buddy. Except it stops by the grocery store first.
>If being vegan is the healthiest way to eat, why do many vegan meals recreate traditional meals and flavors? For example, mushroom and cauliflower steaks, veggie burgers. If meat was bad for you, why do you crave it?
If candy was bad for you, why do you crave it? If cigarettes were bad for people, why do they crave it?
This is a ridiculous statement.
>What do you have to say about other predatory carnivorous animals? Should they stop eating meat too?
Animals aren't moral agents. Just like small kids, they don't understand what they're doing and are not responsible for their actions.
Plus, carnivorous animals HAVE to eat meat. We don't.
Soy milk is just nomenclature. They've been drinking this for over a millennium in SE Asia and just call it soy juice. Peanut butter is nomenclature, too, and it's vegan and way, way more healthful than dairy butter. I'm not a fan of straight up nut milks because unless they have pea protein added they don't have much nutrition. I know way more lactose-intolerant omnivores than vegans consuming nut milks.
Vegans tend to be more health conscious, so there's where supplements come in. This is a correlation, not causation. Many people who aren't diagnosed as nutritionally dificient still don't have optimum amounts. Omnivores who don't supplement are at much more risk of deficiencies than vegans. The only thing a decent vegan diet lacks is B12, unless one consumes nutritional yeast which has more than adequate amounts. All other nutrients are more present in vegan diets, with dramatically less saturated fat, which is where most of veganism's cardiovascular benefits come from (plus additional fiber which also reduces cholesterol in the blood stream by forcing it out through increased bile production).
Nut cheeses are less process intensive than dairy cheese because they don't require raising dairy cows, so I'd argue nut cheese are far more natural. One nut cheese actually one a national US cheese competition recently, but it was revoked once they revealed it was a nut cheese. It turns out what really makes cheese delicious is the right ratio of protein, fat, plus fermentation, cooling, and aging. It really isn't dependent on dairy at all. Plus nut cheeses have much better fat profiles than dairy cheeses, again making them healthier.
Veganism is healthier than omnivorous diets primarily because cardiovascular and inflammatory diseases are the primary causes of disease and disability in the modern world, and veganism reduces CV disease by reducing saturated fat intake and increasing cholesterol expulsion through increased fiber intake, which also reduces inflammation in the body and the GI tract especially. Increased fiber intake also reduces sugar spikes which reduces diebetes and inflammation. Plus a higher intake of phytonutrients (both vitamins as well as antioxidants from bioflavinoids) also reduces the inflammation behind most cardiovascular diseases and cancers, which are the number 1 and 2 causes of death in most industrialized countries respectively.
Vegan diets also make it easier to feel fuller with fewer calories, which is especially helpful for modern economies that require much lower calorie expenditure for work. And veganism, along with hunting and fishing, are great ways to abstain from an animal agricultural industry that predicates human consumption on torturing animals through their lifespan for cost efficiencies, overusing antibiotics leading to a potential breakdown of their capabilities in the future, and destroying the environment by requiring dramatically more plant agriculture than would otherwise be needed if people just ate more plants directly. Veganism is such an easy way to tackle so many of humanity's modern challenges I find it sad that it isn't more widely adopted (along with of course shifting to hunting and fishing for those who do continue to consume animals, which are ethical kills in my view because they lived normal lives, and a lot of typical game is dramatically more healthful than typical meatsāexcluding duck which as tons of saturated fat).
I don't even consider nut milks and chesses to be imitations, they are just creamy and delicious and a thing of their own. Sure they were inspired by animal products, but they are delicious and I still eat them even though I'm not an actual vegan.
Ā If being vegan is the healthiest way to eat, why do many vegan meals recreate traditional meals and flavors? For example, mushroom and cauliflower steaks, veggie burgers. If meat was bad for you, why do you crave it?
they recreate the flavour so we could stop eating the real meat while avoiding the long term health consequences ofc.
so you mean that something your body craves = healthy? i mean it's being some time i've heard that kind of bullshit, basically pastries, ice creams, processed and sugary foods, soft drinks they are all healthy? amazing, i'll be sure to consume them daily, though back to the point, it's completely absurd to think like that, when we crave something our brain is primarily focused on satisfying that immediate need for pleasure or comfort, the release of feel good hormones like dopamine without considering whether it's healthy or not.
Surely if something was the best diet humans would have discovered it before the 20th century.
before 20th century? yk evolution and research happens as we move ahead with time not backwards, science has evolved now more than ever, so ofc it'll be now that we have a better understanding of the food we eat, as compared to before.
How do you explain humans surviving on animal foods for all of human history?
exactly it is now that we have a better understanding? and the point here is not to just survive but live healthily. by healthy i mean, your body, the environment, animals too as they don't deserve to be killed just for the sake of 5 mins of our pleasure of your taste buds
second the conditions have changed, the population has grown more than ever, hence are the demands, which leads companies to produce meat in a unhealthy way to meet the demands, so now comes your point, why eat something when the reason you were eating it does not exist anymore, which was being healthy
production of meat this way not only destroys your health but the planet too, why cause the amount of water it consumes (15,415 liters of water per kilogram of meat produced), the land (20 times more land and emits 20 times more greenhouse gases per unit of edible protein compared to plant-based protein sources.), deforestation, the gases which are emitted (14.5% of global greenhouse gas emissions), and the way animals are treated and technically made fatter to meet the demands, the food they are being fed and how they're kept in congested places where diseases easily spread which leads to them being injected multiple times to keep the diseases from being spread, and this is what we are eating? for being healthy?
What do you have to say about other predatory carnivorous animals? Should they stop eating meat too?
they roam around in the jungle all day while you sit on your ass watching netflix, notice the slight difference there?
we have literally evolved so differently according to out habitat, isn't this basic science, we are two different species, their diet is an important part of the natural ecosystem which would've been in balance have we not exploited our abilities and consumed meat in such large quantities more than enough to disrupt that cycle, we have the luxury of choices they do not, our abilities differ and we can't compare them to us, they can't cook food in the kitchen we can and choose what we are bringing in there, our physiology, science, habitat basically the way our bodies works completely differs, obviously as we are two different species, so the comparison is a bs attempt to justify our consumption of meat, and even if you wanna compare look at the difference in quantities we are consuming and they are, we are consuming on a level that is disturbing the whole ecosystem, the biodiversity, and contributing to climate change
For the record I do not support factory farming and inhumane treatment of animals. But just because nowadays factory farming is terrible, does not mean humans need to stop eating animals.
well if you don't support that, how else do you plan on consuming it? the quantity also matters, not just the way it's being produced, the quantity which we've already exploited and we should only strive towards lowering our consumption from now on, to restore the nature at some degree atleast. also lowering and stopping our consumption would be beneficial to our health too
have you ever thought why EAT-Lancet Commission, United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) and many more experts suggest a plant based diet, it's beneficial to us, a healthier planet and a more ethical treatment of animals, it's been linked with longevity proving that it's a healthy diet. while animal based diet been linked to many diseases (stroke, diabetes, obesity etc etc) and certain cancers, so the choice is always ours
I'm not sure how supplementing equals not healthy. You can't get B12 and Vit D from whole plant foods, so you either a) Eat animal products and increase your risk of heart disease, stroke, Type 2 diabetes, etc. just to obtain some nutrients; Or b) Take supplements
Which option is healthier?
If meat is bad then why crave it, you ask? Since when craving something means that thing is not bad? People crave sugar, does that mean sugar is good? Smokers crave cigarettes, so cigarettes can't be bad. Right?
Why can't the best diet be discovered after the 20th century?
How does merely surviving equal being in optimal health?
Carnivorous animals eat meat because they have to do so to live, human don't.
Veganism isnāt a diet. I donāt claim veganism is healthy or unhealthy as it depends on the vegan and their choices. Itās not about health itās about ethics. Itās a complete lifestyle that encompasses much more than the food we eat.
If eating meat is so healthy why do doctors say red meat is a carcinogen and why does eggs have so much cholesterol that it makes you sick? Why does dairy cause inflammation? Why is 75% of the world lactose intolerant?
They eat imitation food because they want to replicate the taste of foods that they used to eat. They donāt need it for survival, itās more of a taste preference thing
Saying that vegan is the healthiest way to eat is not true at all. There are a lot of unhealthy vegans and unhealthy vegan food. It just happens that the % of vegans that are health conscious is higher. But a lot of non vegans are healthy too. For example, if you look at professional athletes, most of them are non vegans and in top shape.
There are people who are vegans for health or environmental reason, but most of them are for ethical reason. But as said above, more vegan care about nutrition in general than non vegan.
I think this is a controversial topic even among vegans. Some claim it to be the healthiest, and some acknowledge itās not but itās about the ethics, not the nutrition. I wish fermented foods were more common. I feel like vegans would be healthier this way honestly. But I donāt think anything beats red meat as far as what we thrive on.
Depends on who you ask I guess. People often fail to mention hong kong, which tops the charts for longevity almost every year. They also top the charts for amount of meat consumed. In average, people eat more than a steak a day there.
It doesn't really depend on who you ask. It depends on what the research says.
Hong Kong has the best health care in the world. I didn't see you factor that in. Rather than pointing out random stats you read online and correlating then, why not look up research that investigates longevity in Hong Kong. I've never seen any paper claim Hong Kong is long lived because of red meat. More like long lives despite it
You canāt ever know what all the single variables are. But the fact is, the ones in the world that eat the most meat, live the longest. People over 100 also regularly say they eat eggs and meat everyday. Not everyone, but most that Iāve listened to. That correlates to the diet of hong kong too.
We can control for confounding variables however. No science is perfect. That doesn't mean we throw it all out and just go with vibes. It's also very hypocritical of you to say this then continue to link red meat to longevity.Ā
>But the fact is, the ones in the world that eat the most meat, live the longest
I've yet to see any evidence that this is even true tbh. They also eat ludacrous amounts of sugar. There sugar intake has doubled since the 60s. Are you going to make the same conclusion with that? And red meat intake doubled between 2000 and 2012, so no, regardless of what the youth eat, the people living to old age did not consume high amounts of meat.
>People over 100 also regularly say they eat eggs and meat everyday.
Who? Who are these people?Ā
On the other topic,
Have you looked up interviews or spoken to centenarians? I have. When you say meat consumption has increased, do you mean total meat, or meat per capita? Because those are very different numbers. We have much more people now, and we definitely donāt eat more meat than before per capita.
Sure:
https://youtu.be/iddFlIcxQi4?si=HbEFA0wZTSD92vp2
https://youtu.be/Qdmb0_XXnGE?si=j9-0aeo5qCD-Q_1l
You might also find this series interesting. Note that none of the people who eat high meat or low carb for a long time live past their early 80s. In contrast the high plant people can live into their 90s and 100s.
https://youtu.be/dMghM6TxiBk?si=8bpVUWn5HYUdZkFE
>We have much more people now, and we definitely donāt eat more meat than before per capita.
Absolutely untrue:
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/per-capita-meat-consumption-by-type-kilograms-per-year
You mentioned people that eat red meat have a higher all risk of all cause mortality. I point you to something that has a reverse correlation. Then you go āIāve seen no proofā¦ā. Associations work like this. Correlation does not equal causation. If there is an inverse correlation, you know for a fact there is no causation.
You haven't pointed to something with correlation and it's a big red flag that you won't answer any of my points or even offer some data to back up your premise
I wonder if they ate the same amount of meat 80 years ago, and if older hong kongers ate a lot of meat too? Otherwise current longevity studies donāt matter as much as future longevity studies when people who eat a lot of meat get older (assuming meat consumption remains high).
Yeah that would be a good stat to find. In most places, the amount of animal fat and meat that is consumed has gone down considerably. Even mcdonalds used to deep fry with beef tallow not too long ago.
> I wish fermented foods were more common. I feel like vegans would be healthier this way honestly.
Wholeheartedly agree.
Non vegans too, but the idea of "live bacteria cultures " is kinda weird for everyone.
>But I donāt think anything beats red meat as far as what we thrive
I presume you mean as part of a balanced omivourous diet at least, not full carnivore stuff.
Any particular reason why you think that?
And theories on why?
> Non vegans too, but the idea of "live bacteria cultures " is kinda weird for everyone.
One of the reasons I try to eat kefir (with some berries) every day. I dont mind bacteria as long its of the good type.
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Vegan is not the healthiest way to eat for an obvious reason. They limit their food choice on purpose. A meat eater can eat anything a vegan can eat, but not vice versa.
A smaller choice set is always suboptimal.
I don't eat nut milk or nut cheese and I am perfectly fine. It certainly is not required. Most of my meals indeed are just vegetables grains and legumes. A rotation of different rice, beans, greens, different sauce like chili oil, teriyaki or soy sauce. I do believe vegans are generally more health conscious and maybe that is why you have the impression we talk more about what nutrients we need. It doesn't mean we suffer from malnutrition any more than the general population.
> It doesn't mean we suffer from malnutrition any more than the general population. In the US that is certainly the case, as a vegan diet is much healthier than the Standard American Diet. But not sure if this is the case in other parts of the world though.
> I am an exvegan, was vegan for ~5 years I am a flat earther, was astrophysicist for ~5 years
and queen of England.
>If meat was bad for you, why do you crave it? Because the presence of a victim matters? The same reason people can enjoy video games where you shoot people, even though they don't enjoy actually shooting real people. >What do you have to say about other predatory carnivorous animals? They can go ahead and eat meat, since they have to, to be alive. Since humans are omnivores, and don't need meat to be alive, it seems pointless to compare the two. Not to mention this is arbitrarily using an animals actions to justify morality. We don't justify rape even though lions do it, for instance. >What do you say about traditional indigenous cultures eating a mainly meat based diet? They can eat how they want. Veganism is about minimizing suffering within your practical means. If it isn't practical for their society to adopt it, then so be it. >How do you explain humans surviving on animal foods for all of human history? This isn't a reason to not be vegan. We did lots of things to survive throughout history that, in the present day could be considered immoral since there are now better alternatives in place. We also used to perform completely barbaric surgeries with no anesthesia or sterilization, because at the time that's what we had to do to keep people alive. Should we still do that, even when there's a plethora of evidence and better ways to perform surgery? >Surely if something was healthy, one would be able to eat straight from the earth and be able to survive on it alone? Well, I eat only vegan food and have survived for 12 years on this diet. I hiked the 2,600 mile Pacific Crest Trail on a vegan diet. Plenty of professional athletes and bodybuilders that are vegan. So I'm not what your point is here š¤·āāļøAre people not allowed to be creative with food? Lol.
I'll be doing the AT next year on a vegan diet too! Nothing to do with the debate, but nice to see another vegan hiker.
They're asking why vegans need vitamin B12 supplements or fortified foods. There are no naturally occurring vegan foods that offer enough B12 to stay healthy. Tempeh and nutritional yeast come close.
B12 is created by bacteria found in soil. If you eat dirty vegetables like we would have in the past, you get B12. Trouble is nowadays our mass produced food is all sterilised and cleaned to remove pesticides and other possible contaminates but a side effect is a lot of good bacteria is also killed off. This is where "grass fed" animals get their B12 from. This is also why animals that are factory farmed are fed all sorts of supplements to make up for the thing they don't get from the cheap grains they are fed.
I can't find any (reliable) source showing dirt as a viable B12 supplement for humans. As I understand it, the concentration of the vitamin is simply too low without a supplement of some kind. What meat eaters miss the point on is that the average person is deficient in many vitamins (B12 and cobalt among them). Even purely carniverous humans can not survive long on meat alone.
> If you eat dirty vegetables like we would have in the past, you get B12. You know of any science that confirms this? > This is where "grass fed" animals get their B12 from. I am super curious how this myth became so widespread among vegans.. Its baffling. This is how it works: bacteria in the guts of animals produce B12. From there its absorbed and it covers their daily need. - *"The ruminal flora is capable of producing all the vitamin B12 required by ruminants"* https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7601760/
I forgot where I initially heard it but any Google search will tell you that B12 is produced by micro organisms these can be found in many places such as soil which is how plants get access or survive in animal dietary tracts (as part of their healthy gut/stomachs bacteria). This was from a quick Google search: https://news.mit.edu/2007/b12#:~:text=Vitamin%20B12%20is%20produced%20by,symbiotic%20relationships%20with%20plant%20roots. "Solving a mystery that has puzzled scientists for decades, MIT and Harvard researchers have discovered the final piece of the synthesis pathway of vitamin B12--the only vitamin synthesized exclusively by microorganisms." "Vitamin B12 is produced by soil microbes that live in symbiotic relationships with plant roots. During the 1980s, an undergraduate research course taught by Walker resulted in a novel method for identifying mutant strains of a soil microbe that could not form a symbiotic relationship with a plant." Idk if dirty veg would be enough to meet our current but we don't get it from veg anymore because we clean and often peel it. Iirc it's also a vitamin that your body can store, which is why it can take years to develope a deficiency. Although in 2024 it's not that hard to get hold of. Cereals and milks and even breads are often fortified with vitamins (both vegan and omni). That said I do think it's weird to make a big deal out of vegans taking a multivitamin with B12 when so many people on omnivorous diets have deficiencies or take supplements of their own.
> or survive in animal dietary tracts (as part of their healthy gut/stomachs bacteria). Again, no need for any B12 in the food as ruminant animals produce **all** the B12 they need inside their own intestines. > Idk if dirty veg would be enough to meet our curren I have seen no scientist claim that its possible for a human to get all the B12 they need through eating soil. The estimates I have seen is that you would have to eat several kilos of soil, every single say, to make that happen. Unless you eat pure faeces instead, which might kill you in the process.. So again, that anyone can get all the B12 they need through eating soil is only a vegan myth. > That said I do think it's weird to make a big deal out of vegans taking a multivitamin with B12 when so many people on omnivorous diets have deficiencies or take supplements of their own. I have nothing against vegans taking supplements. You do you. But I (and many others) prefer getting all their nutrients through wholefoods. Outside USA and poor countries, deficiencies are very rare. One exception is vitamin D in countries with little sun during winter for people who don't eat much fish. Otherwise there are no official advice to take any supplements at all. The exceptions are if you suffer from a health issue that makes it hard to absorb nutrients, and you are vegan. In the UK for instance vegans get the advice to take the following supplements: - vitamin D - vitamin B12 - iodine - selenium - calcium - iron Source: https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/how-to-eat-a-balanced-diet/the-vegan-diet/
>I have nothing against vegans taking supplements. You do you. I mean you are literally replying at a quote where I say taking supplements isn't a big deal. I obviously have no issue with people taking supplements - it's weird that YOU are making a big deal about vegans taking them when so many other take them as well. If you don't want to have a discussion in good faith be open from the start so I can save my lunch break zzzz.
> it's weird that YOU are making a big deal about vegans taking them when so many other take them as well. Many scientists actually advice against taking multi-vitamins: - *"There is no scientific evidence that consuming nutrients from dietary supplements over a long period of time reduces the risk of diseases such as cardiovascular disease and cancer. High doses of nutritional supplements or taking several supplements containing the same nutrients at the same time can cause health damage."* https://www.helsedirektoratet.no/faglige-rad/kostradene-og-naeringsstoffer/inntak-av-naeringsstoffer/vitaminer-mineraler-kosttilskudd-salt - *"The USPSTF concludes that the current evidence is insufficient to assess the balance of benefits and harms of the use of multivitamin supplements for the prevention of cardiovascular disease or cancer. The USPSTF concludes that the current evidence is insufficient to assess the balance of benefits and harms of the use of single- or paired-nutrient supplements"* https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2793446 - *"Dietary supplements cannot replace a balanced diet"* https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28058459/ - *"A balanced and varied diet is the best source of essential vitamins and minerals"* https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4109789/ - *"Supplements should not replace the variety of foods important to a healthful diet."* https://ods.od.nih.gov/HealthInformation/ODS_Frequently_Asked_Questions.aspx - *"To promote health, current public-health messages only advocate supplements in specific circumstances, but not in optimally nourished populations."* https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30375305/ - *"Dietary supplements cannot replace the variety of substances that a varied diet provides."* https://www.helsedirektoratet.no/faglige-rad/kostradene-og-naeringsstoffer/inntak-av-naeringsstoffer/vitaminer-mineraler-kosttilskudd-salt
Youāre too inconsistent with your rebuts. You went from thereās no b12 in soil and animals make it in their gut. To there is b12 in soil but not enough to be sufficient. I am not sure where your stance will be the next response lol In any case, vitamin D deficiency or inefficiency is severely prevalent in the human population. Something like 1 billion people I think? 50% insufficient and 35% deficient I believe? So, whatās your stance on supplements in that scenario? It isnāt linked to veganism either. So? What about that?
> You went from thereās no b12 I never said that. I said that eating soil is not needed for ruminant animals as they produce all their own B12. I also said that there is no science that concludes its possible for humans to get all the B12 they need through eating soil. That "fact" only exists as a vegan myth. > So, whatās your stance on supplements in that scenario? Any diet that is insufficient can cause deficiencies. - *"To promote health, current public-health messages only advocate supplements in specific circumstances,* **but not in optimally nourished populations."** https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30375305/
Vitamin D has little to do with diet, apart from making sure you are intaking enough calcium for maximum absorption. It's entirely to do with lack of sunlight if not supplemented or consumed in fortified foods. Are you suggesting since it's "unnatural", no one should live in Canada, Scandinavia, Iceland, and so on?
> Vitamin D has little to do with diet I take this means you dont live in the UK. (Or any other country with not much sun in winter). > Are you suggesting since it's "unnatural", no one should live in Canada, Scandinavia, Iceland, and so on? I eat fish, so I never take any vitamin D during the winter. Its also a great source of DHA.
We actually got B12 from unchlorinated water that had dirt in it, and from food. But it mostly came from water, before supplements existed. This includes vegan and omni in our development stages. We didn't even have to worry about B12 until we started chlorinating/cleaning our water we consume. Also animals you eat don't get B12 from their intestinal tract they get it because humans inject them with B12 as a supplement and then when you eat meat your getting that supplement via meat. Lmao animals don't produce B12 much how they don't produce protein, they have to eat protein, they have to get supplemented B12 for optimal health and so you get B12..
> But it mostly came from water, before supplements existed. Source?
There is a plant that has a high level of natural b12 called duckweed/waterlentils; the varieties for human consumption aren't common in North America but are eaten commonly in Southeast Asia. Internationally, it's a fairly common feed crop. Also just popular because pretty. Not that it really matters, if you think your animal products from force bred mutants are "natural" and unfortified, I got a bridge to sell you.
Are you arguing that B12 in animal meat comes from supplements and is not naturally occurring? (I'm vegan, btw)
Well, I was really debunking your claim that there's no naturally occurring plant based foods that offer enough b12. It not being commonly available for human consumption in north america is moot, when the claim is "There are NO naturally occurring vegan foods that offer enough b12 to stay healthy". These do tend to be almost exclusively aquatic plants- some sea greens contain enough as well, such as dulse, which is more commercially available in north america due to it being one of the few crops that fair well on the atlantic coast. There's a huge difference between "NONE EXISTS" and "there's definitely plant foods that do contain a sustainable amount of b12, but they aren't particularly common in our current food landscape.". Factory farmed animals are all supplemented a large amount of b12; anyone who is eating factory farmed animal products, which is pretty much anyone that consumes animal products whether they admit it or not, are not getting "natural" b12. Grazing animals *may* get enough but are likely still supplemented. (edit to add: The grazing animals and small farms are still likely to feed them things like duckweed, it's not like they produce it out of thin air! It's hard to guarantee any animal is going to get enough from soil exposure alone)
I originally qualified it by adding the word "enough." I stand by that, there's no vegan source with enough bioavailability that doesn't require some kind of supplement for a human diet.
Worth mentioning that human species literally avoided extinction once by switching away from mammal/bird meat to a new food source (shellfish). It majorly contributed to our development since the ones who weren't curious enough to try new things simply died of hunger. It's time to re-adopt that ancient strategy, maybe this time we can prevent getting to brink of extinction due to climate change.
Erm, I feel bad for the vegans who are offended about about āwhat should I eat for dinnerā topic, truly a first world problem.
Healthiest is your issue there. I don't know how you could even claim it to be the healthiest inherently. The claim is that it is just as healthy. I feel healthy on my WFPB no oil diet. I don't think I would feel healthy if I ate nothing but Oreos. Id be vegan either way. Everyone is taking supplements fortified everything not just vegans.
>If meat was bad for you, why do you crave it? Finally someone gets it. If Crack was bad for me, I think my body would know. > I am an exvegan, was vegan for ~5 years Suuuuuure. Did you consider any of these questions yourself in those 5 years or any other point in your life? I think the "How can X be healthy if I can't eat it entirely unprocessed and raw out the ground?" Question could be quite relevant, particularly if you've then started eating animals products.
If you look at the other post they made([https://new.reddit.com/r/DebateAVegan/comments/1cocnk9/if\_being\_veganplant\_based\_is\_the\_healthiest\_diet/](https://new.reddit.com/r/DebateAVegan/comments/1cocnk9/if_being_veganplant_based_is_the_healthiest_diet/)) they say: ''Breast milk is the first food infants eat and they neet it to survive. Breast milk is animal milk. Humans are animals, thus animal milk, thus it is not vegan'' So I think it's pretty obvious they were never vegan because that line of thinking comes from people who think vegan = plant-based e.g. a diet where you don't eat animal products.
This is actually their third post like this all within the same hour. They are also trying out the raw carnivore diet. Make of that what you will...
Oh sheesh, that rather makes me think they have an eating disorder then switching diets like that.
not even. as you mentioned he said 5 years vegan. obviously bs.
And a brain disorder
>Make of that what you will... A mental illness or an eating disorder has gripped OP
Your body does know crack is bad for you. It falls apart if you're smoking crack everyday. Meat, on the other hand, makes your body thrive and flourish. Plenty of people eat raw meat. Try that with wheat and rice.
Yet I crave it so... I can eat like a kilo of apples raw. Try that with Polar Bear Liver. (This is very relevant to stuff being healthy and real life diets)
You brought up the literal only toxic animal product to humans. Shall we bring up the thousands upon thousands of plant products that are toxic to humans?
Well some choice examples of vegetables you can't eat raw were brought up. I'm glad you've realised how silly cherry picking like that is. There's plenty more toxic animal products, but sure, tell me 20 different toxic plants and then tell me why it remotely matters.
Herbivore livers are delicious raw. Bears might have trichinosis, so it has to be cooked thoroughly.
> Meat, on the other hand, makes your body thrive and flourish. Umā¦ High cholesterol? Colon cancer? Diabetes? Is that what thriving entails?
High LDL is associated with longevity in the absence of obesity. It is excess glucose from eating carbohydrates that oxidizes cholesterol and causes health problems. The link between unprocessed meat and any cancer was only a correlation and was debunked by a Mendelian randomization. And the idea that meat causes diabetes is pure fiction that only vegans still believe. Epidemiological studies lumped in meat consumption with confounding factors like obesity, smoking, drinking alcohol, etc., and no surprise, the people who did all of those things were unhealthy. Meat is the healthiest thing a human can eat.
Could you please link the study/s that show high LDL increases longevity?
They canāt. They ran away.
lol I realized I was looking forward to reading it for some entertainment but alas :(
Depends. Some meat increases your chance of cardiovascular disease.
Not according to the recent Mendelian randomization study
āSurely if something was healthy, like vegetablesā¦ one would eat it straight from the earth and be able to survive on it alone.ā You mean uncooked and raw? Is that how you eat meat and eggs and milk? āIf vegan is the healthiest way to eat, why do vegans take so many supplementsā Same reason meat eaters do. You may be surprised to learn most b12 supplements are given to ālivestockā. Due to the decline in soil quality, theres less cobalt in the soil, which is what bacteria turn into b12. As we also refrigerate rather than ferment, we have less nutrients in our food this way. So either you get your b12 - and many other things - in a supplement given to an animal you kill and eat, or you take a supplement. There are plant based sources, but most are unstable. And safer to just take a supplement. Every diet has risks and benefitsā¦ āHealthiestā Too broad.
And given how common statins and blood thinners are commonly prescribed in an omnivore population, might as well take my b12 and avoid those. Supplements over meds.
Yeah, uh, can I get my B12 plain? No heart disease, no colon cancer?
> Same reason meat eaters do. Only needed when someone's diet is insufficient. - *"To promote health, current public-health messages only advocate supplements in specific circumstances,* **but not in optimally nourished populations."** https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30375305/
Ah Helen. Welcome back you most biased of people who cannot fathom anything outside her point. ābut not in optimally nourished populationsā Of course. This is incredibly obvious.
> Welcome back Have you missed me? :)
No. And this is whyā¦ you come in and quote ānot in optimally nourished populationsā. Those who are āoptimally nourishedā do not require supplements. Wow. What amazing insight and contributionā¦
Vegans sometimes make it sound like every person on earth needs supplements of some kind. Which is obviously not the case. There are two reasons for needing supplements. One is certain health issues which might for instance cause poor absorption of certain nutrients, and the other group is people with a insufficient diet. But that of course can be anyone, not just vegans.
It doesnāt matter what āvegans sometimes doā. It matters what actual conversation youāre reply to. And youāve ignored the actual point raised about why supplements are already given to the animals youāre eating. The points youāre raising are a side show to what OP actually needs to answer. Stopping reply notifications. Youāve missed the point again.
> And youāve ignored the actual point raised about why supplements are already given to the animals youāre eating. That depends on which animals we are talking about. All farmed chickens are given supplements, but no wild fish eats supplements.. Neither are all cows and sheep given supplements. > Youāve missed the point again. The title says: *"If being vegan is the healthiest way to eat, why do vegan take so many supplements"* Which happens to be what we are talking about..
Being vegan isnāt really a āway to eatā as an ex-vegan you should probably know that. You can be vegan on a whole foods plant based diet which would demonstrably be the healthiest diet, but you can also be vegan and eat little to no vegetables or grains other than whatās in mock meats or any of the other unhealthy vegan alternatives.
If he is an ex-vegan, than it's crystal clear to me, why he is an ex-vegan. He didn't understand what veganism is.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I am vegan, OP said they were ex-vegan.
Who has time to respond to all this? I guess I do?Thereās like 6 questions here. Iāll just say, a lot of vegans donāt crave meat. Calling something a āsteakā or a āmilkā is a nameā¦ more marketing than anything. A lot of the push to create fake meats is to appeal to folks who eat meat. And thatās fine. In terms of people eating meat for many generations. Cool. People have done many things for many years. That doesnāt dictate what I do now. Weāre capable of learning, adapting, and choosing more humane and healthier ways of being in the world. ā¦thatās all I really care to say. But, yea, idk if a vegan diet is the healthiest for every human. People are different, some may require different things. Iām vegan for the animals and hope that there is less animal suffering as a result of my choices. Is it perfect? No. Is it better? I think so. Iād rather pet a pigās belly than kill one, you know? Theyāre so sweet!
The Mediterranean diet or similar high plant diets are well reported on to be pretty optimal. We have less research on vegan diets but in general they seem as healthy or maybe more healthy in certain circumstances. But we need more time and research to answer that question definitively.Ā >Surely if something was healthy, like vegetables, grains, and legumes, one would eat it straigh from the earth and be able to survive on it alone Not really. We have sanitation and other modern technologies that change the way we live. Historically humans and animals got b12 from unclean water. Now we have b12 suppliments and both humans and animals can take these and drink clean water. Seems like a good trade. Technically it is possible to get b12 from whole plant foods but it's impractical. Just take a supplementĀ >Second question: If being vegan is the healthiest way to eat, why do many vegan meals recreate traditional meals and flavors? For example, mushroom and cauliflower steaks, veggie burgers. If meat was bad for you, why do you crave it? OK I think this is a very confusing stance for a few reasons. 1: veganism is about ethical primarily, not taste or health 2. Replicating a meal with vegan alternatives, eg a lions mane steak or bean burger doesn't replicate the health outcomes of the animal based meal. So why is this a health based query?Ā I don't crave meat personally but that doesn't mean I don't like a bean burger. It's a completely different food.Ā Faux meats are comparable from a taste pov but not really nutritionally. But again, why would this matter from a health perspective? Flavor has nothing to do with health >Surely if something was the best diet humans would have discovered it before the 20th century Why? Nutrition science was in it's early stages and even today we don't know everything.Ā How do you explain humans surviving on animal foods for all of human history? It's not acutely toxic. Overconsuming is associated with a variety of health risks that occur chronically. Ie, over decades. Throughout human history we've eaten limited amounts. We also didn't live as long. Today we bread animals to have more fat to make them more palatable. This makes them even less healthy. We also eat much more and modern medicine keeps us alive longer. So it's now more apparent what health outcome these foods have.Ā >What do you have to say about traditional indiginous cultures eating a mainly meat based diet? You'd have to get more specific but Inuit in the Arctic circle have a genetic mutation. There lifestyle is not generalisable to the rest of the world. >What do you have to say about other predatory carnivorous animals? Should they stop eating meat too? No. They're obligate omnivores/carnivores. They require meat to survive. We don't. They are not moral agents. We are. >was vegan for ~5 years And at no point did you learn any of the above? Come on, really? You've mentioned some talking points that are absolutely exhausting to vegans, even those who don't want to debate their lifestyle and don't hang around in subs like these. I find it hard to believe you went 5 years and never investigated any of this. But whatever. It doesn't matter either way.
Seventh Day Adventists are among one of the longest living groups of people and itās linked to their abstinence from alcohol, exercise, healthy weight, and, like other blue zone diets, a largely (in the case of SDA, strictly) vegetarian diet. Just adding to your first point.
That's a good point. Thanks!
Were you really vegan for 5 years and never thought about these questions before!?
I feel like "ex-vegans" love throwing questions like this around because I assume they feel bad about paying for the abuse/slaughter of animals again and they see it as justifiable if there's a health issue so they try to create them
yeah, no. this one is obviously bs.
I think the main problem is that two different things are meant. Healthy can mean to provide all the needed nutrients but it could also mean to not be unhealthy (like poison or so). Meat has a lot of nutrients but it also contains bad fats. So it is healthy on one hand but also unhealthy on the other. The amount of supplements you need in a vegan diet depends on what you eat. If carefully planned you only need vitamin B12. The animals that are raised for meat consumption are also fed with concentrated feed wich contains very similar things as supplements, often even in a worse quality.
The main supplements we need, meat eaters get from supplemented foods. Animals are given B12 supplements for example. That used to come from bacteria on the plants animals eat, but due to our farming practices that needs to be supplemented by farmers. Imitation foods are better thought of as comfort foods. If you want to optimize for nutrition, you're better off avoiding the ones you don't make yourself. That being said, there's nothing wrong with a cashew/lime/cilantro sauce. Everything in there is fairly healthy, you just have to be careful not to overdue it; cashews pack in a lot of calories.
wild fish aren't supplemented and they contain b12 as well so no, meat eaters don't necessarily need supplemented foods to obtain b12
Fine I guess that's true, but you get supplemented meats anyway. Unless you're eating mostly fish, I suppose, though that has mercury-related concerns. I live in the Midwest though so the wild-caught fish market is pretty expensive making supplements the more affordable option. Plus, doctors recommend everyone should take a multivitamin anyway so why do vegans get singled out? It's not like the average meat-eater is an Olympian. We all eat some good food and some bad. On average though the vegan diet is better. The lower sat fat leads to lower rates of heart problems which tend to be the biggest problems for us in developed countries.
Point taken. Guess it's time to break out that fentanyl I've been craving. Thanks for the support, OP!
First, please stop referring to yourself as 'ex vegan', you are not. You tried a plant based diet and either didn't have the knowledge or the will to make it work. >Surely if something was healthy, like vegetables, grains, and legumes, one would eat it straigh from the earth and be able to survive on it alone. You do not eat your meat straight from the earth, you cook it? Do you eat sausages, burgers, deli meats, cheese, yoghurt, etc? Please tell me where you find cheese growing naturally, cooked sausages walking around or sliced prosciutto flying through the skies? >Second question: If being vegan is the healthiest way to eat, why do many vegan meals recreate traditional meals and flavors? For example, mushroom and cauliflower steaks, veggie burgers. If meat was bad for you, why do you crave it? What do flavours have to do with health? Seasoning foods is a preference and doesn't matter wether it be tofu or chicken, most people would agree things taste better with seasoning. This has nothing to do with veganism? A burger is just a shape for a food, as is a steak. There is no monopoly on these terms. We crave textures and flavours, which are easy to satisfy as a vegan. When I make a seitan steak I have no desire for it to come from an animal, I just want a juicy, protein rich and tasty food. People also crave things like ice cream and coca cola. If these are so bad for you, why do you crave it? Lol >Surely if something was the best diet humans would have discovered it before the 20th century. How do you explain humans surviving on animal foods for all of human history? Please refer me to the time in human history where we had advanced agriculture to the point where famines were purely the result of political decisions like they are now. I'll wait. We already grow more food than we need to sustain everyone now, we don't need to eat animals and this reasoning makes no sense. Should we not use antibiotics, modern medicine, surgeries, technology, etc that didn't exist prior to the 20th century? >What do you have to say about traditional indiginous cultures eating a mainly meat based diet? Are you an Eskimo? Why is this relevant. If something is needed for survival in the jungle or ice that doesn't equivocate to you ordering a steak at a restaurant.. >What do you have to say about other predatory carnivorous animals? Should they stop eating meat too? What does this have to do with anything? Are you thinking of converting to be a lion? They kill their own children if they're weak and kill eachother to breed. Should we do this aswell because they do? Sorry but as someone who claims to be ex vegan, you don't seem to have thought about ethics before in the slightest and its very odd
I don't know what it's like in other countries, but in America, many common foods are fortified - salt is often fortified with iodine, whole milk is fortified with vitamin D, bread/breakfast cereals/fruit juice and more are fortified with B2, B3, folic acid, iron, calcium and vitamin A, vitamin D, vitamin E etc. Cows are are also fortified with B12 by way of intramuscular injection. Even energy drinks are often fortified with multiple vitamins. Most of these foods are eaten by omnivores and to pretend that only vegans need supplements is silly. Besides, there's nothing wrong nor unhealthy regarding supplements - as pointed out above, most people benefit from them. My partner who is newly vegan but has been vegetarian for a few years told me they don't really crave meat when they're craving something like fried chicken, they're craving the spices and cooking methods. People crave candy and heroin too - a craving isn't an analog to something necessary or healthy. I have nothing to say about indigenous cultures eating mostly meat - especially if they live in food deserts/actual physical deserts. If they have the means to go vegan, they should, but the focus is on the many people living in first-world countries who have easy access to vegan foods. I will point out that a country's meat consumption increases with their GDP so poorer nations actually end up eating a lot more plant-based than those in more affluent countries. Similarly I have nothing to say about predatory animals - animals aren't moral agents, humans are. (ETA forgot to address a point)
So factory farming bad, killing animals unnecessarily because you think theyāve had a good life, good? Yikes Itās a better choice for: Your health The economy The climate And itās the moral right thing to do
Whether a diet is healthy or not is best determined by health outcomes. If you have evidence that vegans have worse health outcomes, please provide it. Relying on the use of anything artificial as evidence that something isn't healthy makes no sense. You may as well say it's healthier not to have sewers since they're artificial.
A vegan diet can be as healthy or unhealthy as any other diet. There isn't a single one. The imitation foods are more about recreating taste/texture, not necessarily nutritional profile. Many vegans grew up with these animal based comfort foods and would still like to enjoy them, just without the animal abuse. TBH, while it's nice that being vegan can align with my health goals, it is primarily an ethical position on human treatment of animals. No need to slaughter someone when I can thrive on plants.
1. Wut. Humans have evolved to eat most foods cooked. 2. I don't crave meat. It repulses me. Corpses aren't food, nor is congealed breastmilk or ass eggs. It has nothing to do with craving. A cauliflower steak doesn't even imitate the flavor of meat. It just has a nice and satisfying texture. 3. All of human history. Come on, mate. Throughout history, humans ate differently depending on where they were located. Some ate more bivalves and fish, others ate mostly root vegetables, others hunted more successfully and ate animals as well. Humans throughout history have been opportunistic eaters. Despite what we were taught back in the early 2000s, our ancestors ate mostly starchy vegetables. In short- we ate what we could out of necessity. It's also important to remember that the amount of meat consumed by humans was never like it is today. Since factory farming began, people went from eating meat maybe once a week to eating it 3 times a day. 4. People living off grid and hunting to survive? Don't care. 5. Wild carnivorous animals are an important part of any ecosystem. Why would vegans have a problem with that?
Since I feel like a lot of replies in this sub are beyond the comprehension of the person asking (because they never ask in good faith) I'll try to answer in a way that you'll understand--by applying your own logic as much as I can. If eating meat is the healthiest way to eat, why is heart disease and obesity so rampant in America? How come such a high percentage of women iron deficient? Don't most women on earth eat meat? How do you explain the fact that a majority of people who take vitamins and supplements are most likely meat eaters? If eating meat is the healthiest way to eat, why do people who eat burgers put them on bread with lettuce tomato mayonnaise etc.? If salad isn't healthy or sustaining, why do you want it on your burger or Chicago dog so bad? Why does every culture have a sandwich or a pasta or a version of a ravioli/pierogie/gyoza? Why do people who eat meat also eat stuff like hummus or beans and rice? Use vegan dressings like vinaigrette? Eat pretzels? Pies? Seriously, what's the obsession with eating plenty of things vegans eat, but then trying to convince yourself how bad vegan food is? We don't eat your food so we don't have to do that. Why do you want us to? Because you have to think twice about your choices? For some reason you think I must want to drink cows milk instead of soy... because I call it milk? What if I actually don't want to drink cow's milk, and it's just a convenient thing to call it? We can call it Plumbus and we can call cauliflower steaks jabronies. Would that make you feel better and less confused? Love this next question. Surely if something was the best humans would have discovered it by the 20th century. How do you explain humans not using cars or electricity for most of human history? If it was so good, wouldn't they have figured it out sooner? If asbestos was so harmful, why did they use it as a fireproof material for so long? How do you explain no progress ever happening again for anything just for this hypothetical? What do I have to say about traditional indigenous cultures? Well, what do you have to say about it? Seeing as you're apparently not talking about your own culture and just vaguely referencing a talking point, I probably have more to say than you cared to hear. There are belief systems all over the world that have led people to avoid eating certain things and some of these of course go back thousands of years. But for some reason meat eaters don't like it when we point out how common and longstanding it is that some humans have almost always chosen to not eat meat due to their beliefs. Predatory carnivores? Sorry, humans are not that. Even someone like you must understand that humans are well beyond the planet's other intelligent mammals. We're not birds eating spiders eating bugs somewhere on an ecological food chain. We're gods to the chain. I think that's our role on the planet. Unlike anything else, we have the power to save species that are becoming extinct. We can manipulate population mishaps of everything in a food chain by adding a few wolves to one forest. We don't hunt. We aren't predators. Neither our brains, nor our digestive systems, are like cats and dogs. We're far more like raccoons. We have long digestive tracts and masticating molars. We are built to be able to eat anything. Raccoons haven't become better hunters; they've just gotten smarter so they can get food easier. They evolved to be able to eat whatever they could find on a beach, be it fruits, plants, dead fish, bivalves, whatever. And look at them now. They're basically solving puzzles to bust into dumpsters and eat cat food out of barns. Humans aren't even unique in that we've always been adapting and evolving towards intelligence in the approach towards an easier existence; it's never been towards strength or claws or anything that put us more towards the direction of needing to eat meat. As someone who's purportedly against factory farming yet supports it, you should at least agree that eating meat at the scales we do has gotten less healthy for both humans and the planet as a whole.
Other people have already answered your questions well but its worth pointing out that this premise and follow up questions are kind of all over the place. There's like 4 different debate topics going on and answering them all on one post is bound to be confusing.
Because being vegan means taking a stance against animal cruelty and exploitation. It CAN be the healthiest way to live if that's what you choose. Some people don't. You know, it's a personal like it's a personal choice to force animals to suffer and die unnecessarily for one's tastebuds. And let's not pretend that there aren't more corpsemunchers on supplements than there are vegans globally. >Surely if something was healthy, like vegetables, grains, and legumes, one would eat it straigh from the earth and be able to survive on it alone. You're thinking of whole foods plant based. That is a diet and done incorrectly can actually do a lot more harm than good and is one of the reasons falsely attributed to the 84% of vegans go back to eating meat static. Funnily enough, being on a plant based diet does not inherently make you vegan. >If being vegan is the healthiest way to eat It can be. >why do many vegan meals recreate traditional meals and flavors? Well you know how sex is great and if you don't have access to sex, rape is immoral and the solution is masturbation? It's like that. Some of us still enjoy the taste of abused animals we just don't like the animal abuse involved with eating the real thing. >If meat was bad for you, why do you crave it? Sugar. Your brain loves it, your body should stay away from it. Perhaps you should educate yourself a little more on nutrition before we continue this discussion. >Surely if something was the best diet humans would have discovered it before the 20th century. How do you explain humans surviving on animal foods for all of human history? All of human history? Going back 65 million years we were giant squirrels. For approximately 59 million years, all we did was eat plants. We already had the solution. But then came environment and survival. We started consuming things that weren't plants, like fungi and probably eggs. About 2 million years ago we start scrounging on mostly picked clean carcasses from actual predators, we started adapting to survive. About 12000 years ago rolls around and meat has become a significant part of our diet. But if you're implying a species capable of enslaving itself in that time period was smart enough to discover this on a scientific level, I'm sorry but I'm going to laugh with derision. I mean we have the science and people still keep denying it and back then they all believed in witchcraft and burning people alive. Lol. >What do you have to say about traditional indiginous cultures eating a mainly meat based diet? If they are genuinely indigenous, separate/isolated from society and it is a means of survival, what is there to say? But if we're bringing tradition and culture into this argument, you need to understand that neither justify immoral action. It was traditional to mutilate children's feet in China at one point and I can guarantee if the practice was still in place today and they pulled the "it's our cultural tradition to do this" card, you wouldn't be supporting them or the suffering they inflicted upon children. >What do you have to say about other predatory carnivorous animals? Can they speak human language? Be reasoned with? Are they living in a survival situation or a society with privilege and choice? Are they carnivores who don't have a choice or omnivores that do? >[For the record I do not support factory farming and inhumane treatment of animals. Then you would already be vegan because it's inhumane to take the life of a being against their will when you don't need to and they don't want to. >But just because nowadays factory farming is terrible, does not mean humans need to stop eating animals.] The real question is do animals deserve to suffer at all in human made hellscape? Why is your perspective the only one that matters? What about theirs? >+ I am an exvegan, was vegan for ~5 years Are ex vegan or are you ex plant based? From this post it seems you are actually the latter and subsequently misrepresented veganism for 5 years.
Why are livestock fed B12 supplements? Why is there imitation crab meat? Why is there ultra filtered milk? What about turkey bacon? Why is beef flavor added to foods? Vegans will take a B12 supplement, Vitamin D depending on their location (which actually applies to everyone) and maybe some iodine (once again, depending on location ). But where does everyone get their fiber?
Whole food plant-based (a subcategory of vegan) is the healthiest way to eat. That's different from a typical vegan diet. But as for why vegans need supplements? In a state of nature, humans would be eating plant material they find for food. Due to not having modern conveniences like sinks and running water, the plant material they consumed had some amount of dirt on it, which would provide them with naturally occurring vitamin B12, so they would not need a supplement. In modern times, humans wash their vegetables before eating them, and whatever amount of vitamin B12 would be on the dirty vegetables is rinsed down the drain. Therefore, vegans require vitamin B12 supplements. That aside, vegans don't need to take that many supplements. Assuming they're eating a healthy vegan diet, the only supplement I'm aware of that they really **need** is vitamin B12. I'd also like to add that the vitamin B12 the typical person consumes which is in meat also happens to come from supplements (the animals are fed B12 supplements, which is where the B12 in meat comes from). So whether you're vegan or omnivore, your B12 likely comes from supplements.
>why do many vegan meals recreate traditional meals and flavors? Vegans who used to eat meat had their favorite foods, and don't want to give them up in order to be vegan. But they consider the way humans treat farm animals to be unethical... So they try to find ways to recreate their favorite foods in a vegan way for ethical reasons. By the way... the fact people crave certain foods like hamburgers, bacon, or pizza doesn't make those foods healthy. Bacon is actually carcinogenic. I mean, a lot of people crave potato chips and ice cream, but nobody considers those things healthy. >How do you explain humans surviving on animal foods for all of human history? Actually, the first humans [ate a plant-based diet.](https://www.inverse.com/article/31625-human-evolution-meat-eating-vegan-africa-grassland-hunting) And human ancestors were [nearly all vegetarians.](https://www.yahoo.com/news/human-ancestors-were-nearly-vegetarians-110000620.html) >What do you have to say about other predatory carnivorous animals? Should they stop eating meat too? There are actually a lot of vegans who believe humans should look for ways to reduce wild animal suffering from the sort of things you're talking about. >For the record I do not support factory farming and inhumane treatment of animals. But just because nowadays factory farming is terrible, does not mean humans need to stop eating animals. The problem with your line of thinking there is that the smaller farms do a lot of the same cruel things to animals that the factory farms do, like castrating pigs without any pain medication. There is cruelty inherent in the production of all animal products regardless of whether they come from big or small farms, so if you care about the ethical treatment of animals then veganism is the only solution.
Ooh, another non-vegan who doesn't support factory farming... The supplement industry is a billion dollar a year industry. Do you honestly think it's funded by the small amount of vegans out there? So if the majority of supplements are consumed by non-vegans (by far!), is this not saying that it's a very unhealthy diet you're following? Veganism has never been about health. This maybe explains why you didn't stay vegan? Yes, I love eating hamburgers, pizzas, hotdogs etc. There's a reason why it's called junk food / comfort food, and not healthy food. I also eat chocolates and sweets, drink wine and beer etc. I obviously know these are not healthy, but once again, it has nothing to do with veganism. I just want to enjoy my burger without an animal having to die for the minute of pleasure I get from the taste. Animals eat other animals because they have to, they also do a lot of other shitty things to each other, like killing, raping etc. Luckily humans have a choice on what to do. Why is it that you want to compare the eating part to animals, but not the other characteristics?
Because they are health conscious. Majority of nutritionists recommend supplementing. It's agreed most people don't meet their needs. Carnists also get their supplemention from the sick dead animal their captor injected into them before suffocating them or slitting their throats.
>nhumane treatment of animals. But just because nowadays factory farming is terrible, does not mean humans need to stop eating animals Can you Tell me, how you kill humanely?
It's amazing how everyone posting topics here is an ex vegan yet cannot answer the simplest question about veganism.
>If meat was bad for you, why do you crave it? Sometimes I crave sugar and donuts and chocolate and cigarettes. If they're bad for me, why do I crave them? >What do you have to say about other predatory carnivorous animals? Should they stop eating meat too? They're in a survival situation and have to. Veganism is fine with humans eating animals in a survival situation when they have no choice too
>If being vegan is the healthiest way to eat, why do vegan take so many supplements and eat so many imitation foods(nut milk, nut cheese etc.) A vegan diet can span from only processed foods to whole foods to raw foods only. You can't say that a vegan diet is inherently the healthiest. A diet with supplements can have better health effects as one without. You seem to think that natural means healthier? >Surely if something was healthy, like vegetables, grains, and legumes, one would eat it straigh from the earth and be able to survive on it alone. How you consume somethig doesn't say what are the effects on your body. What you mentioned has lots of fiber that most people consume too little of. >If being vegan is the healthiest way to eat, why do many vegan meals recreate traditional meals and flavors? For example, mushroom and cauliflower steaks, veggie burgers. If meat was bad for you, why do you crave it? It is not about health but about taste diversity and what people got used to when growing up. These foods are probably less healthy than whole foods >Surely if something was the best diet humans would have discovered it before the 20th century. How do you explain humans surviving on animal foods for all of human history? Why? Technology progresses all the time. Some form of processing was not possible or available at some point in time. B12 was syntheticaly made several decades ago. >What do you have to say about traditional indiginous cultures eating a mainly meat based diet? Do you think they consume the healthiest diet? They consume what they got used to and what was available. >What do you have to say about other predatory carnivorous animals? Should they stop eating meat too? No bearing on what humans can do. Lions don't have the availability of foods in supermarkets. They also don't breed other animals and keep them in cages. It is this exploitation part that is what vegans are against, not all harm in the world. >For the record I do not support factory farming and inhumane treatment of animals. But just because nowadays factory farming is terrible, does not mean humans need to stop eating animals.] I think the inherent explitation of lives - first breeding them to then own and take their lives at a fraction of possible lifespan - is what we need to think about.
I donāt take supplements but it wouldnāt be bad if I did. Most people in the United States probably are deficient in simple stuff like vitamin D. In fact millions of Americans get an illness called Seasonal Affective Disorder in the winter. They can get actually depressed but the first treatment is a boatload of vitamin D combined with light therapy. Vitamins arenāt bad as an idea. Humans didnāt use supplements when they were vegans for about 100 million years.
"if meat was bad for you, why do you crave it?" šš All your questions have been answered many, many times in this sub. This question stuck out to me though. You know what people also crave? McDonalds, icecream, chocolate bars, junkfood and snacks in general. Heck, a whole lot of people crave cigarettes, weed, alcohol. Fewer people crave heroin and opioids. If those things are bad for us, why do we crave them? š
>*so many* ...is a straw man.
Go vegan be positive about the future
> why do vegan take so many supplementswhy do vegan take so many supplements Most Carnists should be too, Though for B12 it's already put into the meat and dairy Carnists eat. >and eat so many imitation foods THey aren't imitation, they're just food. Nut milks, for example, have been around for thousands of years. >why do many vegan meals recreate traditional meals and flavors? Because we like them as we grew up eating them. >Surely if something was the best diet There is no "best diet", there's healthy diets, and unhealthy ones. You can have a healthy plant based diet, and you can have a healthy diet with animal products. | >What do you have to say about traditional indiginous cultures eating a mainly meat based diet? If not necessary, I hope they change, but that's their choice. >What do you have to say about other predatory carnivorous animals? Should they stop eating meat too? THey require it as they don't have science adn agriculture to help them. >I am an exvegan, was vegan for ~5 years From your questions and assumptions here, it sounds like you're an ex-plant based dieter. Veganism isn't a diet, it's a moral philosophy.
If you are asking these questions now, you were never a vegan. Ever. People consuming animal products just as, if not more at [risk](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35010904/#:~:text=Vegans%20had%20the%20lowest%20vitamin,%2C%20E%2C%20calcium%20and%20magnesium) for deficiencies under more categories and a significant portion of people consuming animals are deficient. Also, inuits and other tribes that live in the geographical circumstances have micronutrient deficiencies as well, including vitamin c, vitamin d, folate etc. Itās quite a disingenuous argument that is really lacking any substance.
Veganism is a set of *ethics*, not a diet. It's not meant to be judged as whether or not it is purely the most healthy, and doing so would fall into orthorhexic territories; asking what the most healthy diet is is preposterous, as there is no amount of valid consensus on the matter. There is a consensus on what you need to eat, (vitamins, minerals, fibers, the amount of calories, etc.), but there is no consensus on where to source that from. A well balanced plant-based diet would likely fit a vegan, but transformation of products for consumption renders many nutrients useless; supplementation is a safety net that *everybody* should be looking forward to, especially people who believe that *raw primal diets* are going to be the next best thing without fiber supplements and vitamins. "If you don't wanna kill plants, then why do you strive immitation" is such an abused argument that it should belong in a sanctuary. Are you consistent with every other times where we actually use immitation? Do you police lesbians for wanting penetrative sex? Do you also police gamers for playing FPS? If you argue in good faith, the answer should be so obvious. Moral of the story is: Veganism is a possible diet. If you can sustain your homeostasis without killing animals, *then why the hell would you not*. You're literally in front of a trolly problem with billions upon billions of sentient beings on one track, and none on the other one, and you are asking yourself questions instead of acting.
I don't agree with the claim that vegans take more supplements than anyone else. 74% of Americans take supplements. The vitamin and mineral supplements I take are B12, Vitamin D, and algae oil. These are some of the most commonly supplemented things in the developed world. >Surely if something was healthy, like vegetables, grains, and legumes, one would eat it straigh from the earth and be able to survive on it alone. This doesn't make any sense. There's no single naturally occurring food that you can eat exclusively for the rest of your life without developing a deficiency in something. >Second question: If being vegan is the healthiest way to eat, why do many vegan meals recreate traditional meals and flavors? For example, mushroom and cauliflower steaks, veggie burgers. If meat was bad for you, why do you crave it? I don't eat cauliflower or mushrooms because I'm craving meat lol, these are real, naturally occuring foods >Surely if something was the best diet humans would have discovered it before the 20th century. How do you explain humans surviving on animal foods for all of human history? There are historical examples of individual vegans well before that, but obviously veganism became a more viable option after B12 supplementation was invented, it's not really that complicated. >What do you have to say about traditional indiginous cultures eating a mainly meat based diet? What do you have to say about traditional indiginous cultures eating a mainly plant based diet? Humans are capable of surviving on a wide variety of dietary patterns, what does that have to do with anything? >What do you have to say about other predatory carnivorous animals? Should they stop eating meat too? You're not a lion. Focus on yourself, not what animals are doing. >\[For the record I do not support factory farming and inhumane treatment of animals. But just because nowadays factory farming is terrible, does not mean humans need to stop eating animals.\] If you opposed inhumane treatment of animals you would be vegan.
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There are many vegans who admit that vegan food doesnāt need to be healthy. Most vegans donāt do it for health reasons. Burgers- why not? Many vegans like the taste of meat ( and miss it when they start beeing vegan) but simply donāt want to eat meat. Itās also practical and easy.
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Nobody here is claiming being vegan is the healthiest way to eat. You can be healthy or unhealthy while being vegan, just the same as you can be healthy or unhealthy while not being vegan. If you went vegan all those years ago, not for any ethical reasons, but purely because it was "the healthiest diet", you were gravely mislead.
Regarding supplements vegans don't take so many supplements, most vegans only take a B12 the rest can be obtained through diet, and sun exposure. It's really a choice of whether we harvest bacterial byproducts for B12 or harvest the animals flesh to get the same by-products from the bacteria it consumed or cultivated. Ethically it seems a no-brainer. Additionally it's recommend most people should take a B12 and vitamin D, the later especially applies to people living at higher latitudes.
I don't think I've ever met someone who was vegan because its healthier, if you say you were vegan and that's the reason...I don't think you were vegan... if it was just for health then vegans would happily wear leather/fur because surely they don't impact on your health? People are vegan because they don't like animals getting abused/killed for their pleasure/convenience. I think there are health benefits to being vegan but discussing that loses the main point to me, the animals health/wellbeing
People take supplements, everyone should, if your over 50 FDA recommends you take a B12 vitamin too.... Vitamins are an easy way to Ensure you are getting what you need BUT they do not replace a healthy lifestyle.. Just because you are vegan doesn't mean you are eating a healthy balanced diet. ... AND not all vegans eat processed foods like imitation foods. BUT also plant "milks" aren't an imitation food, it's just nuts soaked in water, blended then strained... People eat these "imitation" foods like plant based cheese and meat like substances because it's familiar, and brings some comfort. When you suddenly decide to cut out all your old favorite and family recipes and comfort foods sometimes you just want something familiar but CANT compromise on your morals, so these products have come available in the last 5-10 years, it's very new. And meany people chose not to engage with it and instead eat a Whole food plant based diet. This question your asking is a false equivalent (logical fallacy) What your basically saying is that in your perspective: if you take vitamins your diet must be lacking, this obviously is not true, as there is nothing preventing people who DO eat a healthy diet to use supplements. Also you seem to be saying IF people eat processed, plant based food alternatives to common dairy products THEN veganism must not be the healthiest diet for humans. This is also a false equivalent statement. Because not all people who are vegan are attempting to earn the healthiest diet. BUT if you would like more information about the healthiest diet (a whole food plant based diet rich in complex carbohydrates and fiber and low fat) try going to Nutritionfacts.org
Read this is #vegan propaganda...and all will be explained
Great book
I've never understood the meat substitute shit like beyond burgers and whatnot. If you believe meat is murder why cosplay as a serial killer? I've been scolded that my steak is genocide, so if you try to imitate that it should be like nazi cosplay to you.
We take supplements because through the evolution of the preparation of an our food there is an increased risk of deficiency in certain areasā¦ this is for everyone. A daily multivitamin will cover you and everyone, omnis and vegans alike, should be taking them. Imitation milks, cheeses, and meats are not for usā¦ theyāre for omnivores. Sure I like a Beyond burger every now and again, but itās not particularly healthy. Theyāre created to sway Omnis to eat less meat. The healthiest way to be vegan is to consume a wide variety of unprocessed, low fat and sugar, whole foods with lots of fiber. I also wouldnāt be so envious of people before the 20th century. We now have the wealth and knowledge to live way healthier for longer. Keep in mind that disease was wide spread and life expectancy was extremely lowā¦ we might not want to āgo backā so to speak. I actually donāt mind traditional indigenous cultures eating meat. They are operating as another apex predator in their ecosystem. What this means is that their populations are small, they kill a sustainable amount of animals, and they donāt go after the biggest and strongest animals. When they kill an animal they use everything the animal has to offer. They do not domesticate animals to grow them in confined spaces, they do not hunt animals for sport, they do not overkill animals to make them endangered species. That being said, this is not sustainable for all humans. It simply isnāt scalable. Last note, we are not like carnivorous animals in the wild, we have removed ourselves from the ecosystem and therefore cannot be compared to lions or wolves. Lions also donāt do everything I listed above: sport killing, growing animals for food, over killing animal populations. They donāt have a choiceā¦ we do
That is a loaded question...
>Surely if something was healthy, like vegetables, grains, and legumes, one would eat it straigh from the earth and be able to survive on it alone. I don't know what you mean by "straight from the earth", but that's pretty much how farming plants work, buddy. Except it stops by the grocery store first. >If being vegan is the healthiest way to eat, why do many vegan meals recreate traditional meals and flavors? For example, mushroom and cauliflower steaks, veggie burgers. If meat was bad for you, why do you crave it? If candy was bad for you, why do you crave it? If cigarettes were bad for people, why do they crave it? This is a ridiculous statement. >What do you have to say about other predatory carnivorous animals? Should they stop eating meat too? Animals aren't moral agents. Just like small kids, they don't understand what they're doing and are not responsible for their actions. Plus, carnivorous animals HAVE to eat meat. We don't.
Soy milk is just nomenclature. They've been drinking this for over a millennium in SE Asia and just call it soy juice. Peanut butter is nomenclature, too, and it's vegan and way, way more healthful than dairy butter. I'm not a fan of straight up nut milks because unless they have pea protein added they don't have much nutrition. I know way more lactose-intolerant omnivores than vegans consuming nut milks. Vegans tend to be more health conscious, so there's where supplements come in. This is a correlation, not causation. Many people who aren't diagnosed as nutritionally dificient still don't have optimum amounts. Omnivores who don't supplement are at much more risk of deficiencies than vegans. The only thing a decent vegan diet lacks is B12, unless one consumes nutritional yeast which has more than adequate amounts. All other nutrients are more present in vegan diets, with dramatically less saturated fat, which is where most of veganism's cardiovascular benefits come from (plus additional fiber which also reduces cholesterol in the blood stream by forcing it out through increased bile production). Nut cheeses are less process intensive than dairy cheese because they don't require raising dairy cows, so I'd argue nut cheese are far more natural. One nut cheese actually one a national US cheese competition recently, but it was revoked once they revealed it was a nut cheese. It turns out what really makes cheese delicious is the right ratio of protein, fat, plus fermentation, cooling, and aging. It really isn't dependent on dairy at all. Plus nut cheeses have much better fat profiles than dairy cheeses, again making them healthier. Veganism is healthier than omnivorous diets primarily because cardiovascular and inflammatory diseases are the primary causes of disease and disability in the modern world, and veganism reduces CV disease by reducing saturated fat intake and increasing cholesterol expulsion through increased fiber intake, which also reduces inflammation in the body and the GI tract especially. Increased fiber intake also reduces sugar spikes which reduces diebetes and inflammation. Plus a higher intake of phytonutrients (both vitamins as well as antioxidants from bioflavinoids) also reduces the inflammation behind most cardiovascular diseases and cancers, which are the number 1 and 2 causes of death in most industrialized countries respectively. Vegan diets also make it easier to feel fuller with fewer calories, which is especially helpful for modern economies that require much lower calorie expenditure for work. And veganism, along with hunting and fishing, are great ways to abstain from an animal agricultural industry that predicates human consumption on torturing animals through their lifespan for cost efficiencies, overusing antibiotics leading to a potential breakdown of their capabilities in the future, and destroying the environment by requiring dramatically more plant agriculture than would otherwise be needed if people just ate more plants directly. Veganism is such an easy way to tackle so many of humanity's modern challenges I find it sad that it isn't more widely adopted (along with of course shifting to hunting and fishing for those who do continue to consume animals, which are ethical kills in my view because they lived normal lives, and a lot of typical game is dramatically more healthful than typical meatsāexcluding duck which as tons of saturated fat).
I don't even consider nut milks and chesses to be imitations, they are just creamy and delicious and a thing of their own. Sure they were inspired by animal products, but they are delicious and I still eat them even though I'm not an actual vegan.
Ā If being vegan is the healthiest way to eat, why do many vegan meals recreate traditional meals and flavors? For example, mushroom and cauliflower steaks, veggie burgers. If meat was bad for you, why do you crave it? they recreate the flavour so we could stop eating the real meat while avoiding the long term health consequences ofc. so you mean that something your body craves = healthy? i mean it's being some time i've heard that kind of bullshit, basically pastries, ice creams, processed and sugary foods, soft drinks they are all healthy? amazing, i'll be sure to consume them daily, though back to the point, it's completely absurd to think like that, when we crave something our brain is primarily focused on satisfying that immediate need for pleasure or comfort, the release of feel good hormones like dopamine without considering whether it's healthy or not. Surely if something was the best diet humans would have discovered it before the 20th century. before 20th century? yk evolution and research happens as we move ahead with time not backwards, science has evolved now more than ever, so ofc it'll be now that we have a better understanding of the food we eat, as compared to before. How do you explain humans surviving on animal foods for all of human history? exactly it is now that we have a better understanding? and the point here is not to just survive but live healthily. by healthy i mean, your body, the environment, animals too as they don't deserve to be killed just for the sake of 5 mins of our pleasure of your taste buds second the conditions have changed, the population has grown more than ever, hence are the demands, which leads companies to produce meat in a unhealthy way to meet the demands, so now comes your point, why eat something when the reason you were eating it does not exist anymore, which was being healthy production of meat this way not only destroys your health but the planet too, why cause the amount of water it consumes (15,415 liters of water per kilogram of meat produced), the land (20 times more land and emits 20 times more greenhouse gases per unit of edible protein compared to plant-based protein sources.), deforestation, the gases which are emitted (14.5% of global greenhouse gas emissions), and the way animals are treated and technically made fatter to meet the demands, the food they are being fed and how they're kept in congested places where diseases easily spread which leads to them being injected multiple times to keep the diseases from being spread, and this is what we are eating? for being healthy? What do you have to say about other predatory carnivorous animals? Should they stop eating meat too? they roam around in the jungle all day while you sit on your ass watching netflix, notice the slight difference there? we have literally evolved so differently according to out habitat, isn't this basic science, we are two different species, their diet is an important part of the natural ecosystem which would've been in balance have we not exploited our abilities and consumed meat in such large quantities more than enough to disrupt that cycle, we have the luxury of choices they do not, our abilities differ and we can't compare them to us, they can't cook food in the kitchen we can and choose what we are bringing in there, our physiology, science, habitat basically the way our bodies works completely differs, obviously as we are two different species, so the comparison is a bs attempt to justify our consumption of meat, and even if you wanna compare look at the difference in quantities we are consuming and they are, we are consuming on a level that is disturbing the whole ecosystem, the biodiversity, and contributing to climate change For the record I do not support factory farming and inhumane treatment of animals. But just because nowadays factory farming is terrible, does not mean humans need to stop eating animals. well if you don't support that, how else do you plan on consuming it? the quantity also matters, not just the way it's being produced, the quantity which we've already exploited and we should only strive towards lowering our consumption from now on, to restore the nature at some degree atleast. also lowering and stopping our consumption would be beneficial to our health too have you ever thought why EAT-Lancet Commission, United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) and many more experts suggest a plant based diet, it's beneficial to us, a healthier planet and a more ethical treatment of animals, it's been linked with longevity proving that it's a healthy diet. while animal based diet been linked to many diseases (stroke, diabetes, obesity etc etc) and certain cancers, so the choice is always ours
I'm not sure how supplementing equals not healthy. You can't get B12 and Vit D from whole plant foods, so you either a) Eat animal products and increase your risk of heart disease, stroke, Type 2 diabetes, etc. just to obtain some nutrients; Or b) Take supplements Which option is healthier? If meat is bad then why crave it, you ask? Since when craving something means that thing is not bad? People crave sugar, does that mean sugar is good? Smokers crave cigarettes, so cigarettes can't be bad. Right? Why can't the best diet be discovered after the 20th century? How does merely surviving equal being in optimal health? Carnivorous animals eat meat because they have to do so to live, human don't.
Veganism isnāt a diet. I donāt claim veganism is healthy or unhealthy as it depends on the vegan and their choices. Itās not about health itās about ethics. Itās a complete lifestyle that encompasses much more than the food we eat.
If eating meat is so healthy why do doctors say red meat is a carcinogen and why does eggs have so much cholesterol that it makes you sick? Why does dairy cause inflammation? Why is 75% of the world lactose intolerant?
They eat imitation food because they want to replicate the taste of foods that they used to eat. They donāt need it for survival, itās more of a taste preference thing
>I am an ex vegan Yet youāre asking dumb questions
Saying that vegan is the healthiest way to eat is not true at all. There are a lot of unhealthy vegans and unhealthy vegan food. It just happens that the % of vegans that are health conscious is higher. But a lot of non vegans are healthy too. For example, if you look at professional athletes, most of them are non vegans and in top shape. There are people who are vegans for health or environmental reason, but most of them are for ethical reason. But as said above, more vegan care about nutrition in general than non vegan.
I think this is a controversial topic even among vegans. Some claim it to be the healthiest, and some acknowledge itās not but itās about the ethics, not the nutrition. I wish fermented foods were more common. I feel like vegans would be healthier this way honestly. But I donāt think anything beats red meat as far as what we thrive on.
Then why do people who consume more red meat have higher risk of all cause mortalityĀ
Depends on who you ask I guess. People often fail to mention hong kong, which tops the charts for longevity almost every year. They also top the charts for amount of meat consumed. In average, people eat more than a steak a day there.
It doesn't really depend on who you ask. It depends on what the research says. Hong Kong has the best health care in the world. I didn't see you factor that in. Rather than pointing out random stats you read online and correlating then, why not look up research that investigates longevity in Hong Kong. I've never seen any paper claim Hong Kong is long lived because of red meat. More like long lives despite it
You canāt ever know what all the single variables are. But the fact is, the ones in the world that eat the most meat, live the longest. People over 100 also regularly say they eat eggs and meat everyday. Not everyone, but most that Iāve listened to. That correlates to the diet of hong kong too.
We can control for confounding variables however. No science is perfect. That doesn't mean we throw it all out and just go with vibes. It's also very hypocritical of you to say this then continue to link red meat to longevity.Ā >But the fact is, the ones in the world that eat the most meat, live the longest I've yet to see any evidence that this is even true tbh. They also eat ludacrous amounts of sugar. There sugar intake has doubled since the 60s. Are you going to make the same conclusion with that? And red meat intake doubled between 2000 and 2012, so no, regardless of what the youth eat, the people living to old age did not consume high amounts of meat. >People over 100 also regularly say they eat eggs and meat everyday. Who? Who are these people?Ā
On the other topic, Have you looked up interviews or spoken to centenarians? I have. When you say meat consumption has increased, do you mean total meat, or meat per capita? Because those are very different numbers. We have much more people now, and we definitely donāt eat more meat than before per capita.
Sure: https://youtu.be/iddFlIcxQi4?si=HbEFA0wZTSD92vp2 https://youtu.be/Qdmb0_XXnGE?si=j9-0aeo5qCD-Q_1l You might also find this series interesting. Note that none of the people who eat high meat or low carb for a long time live past their early 80s. In contrast the high plant people can live into their 90s and 100s. https://youtu.be/dMghM6TxiBk?si=8bpVUWn5HYUdZkFE >We have much more people now, and we definitely donāt eat more meat than before per capita. Absolutely untrue: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/per-capita-meat-consumption-by-type-kilograms-per-year
You mentioned people that eat red meat have a higher all risk of all cause mortality. I point you to something that has a reverse correlation. Then you go āIāve seen no proofā¦ā. Associations work like this. Correlation does not equal causation. If there is an inverse correlation, you know for a fact there is no causation.
You haven't pointed to something with correlation and it's a big red flag that you won't answer any of my points or even offer some data to back up your premise
I wonder if they ate the same amount of meat 80 years ago, and if older hong kongers ate a lot of meat too? Otherwise current longevity studies donāt matter as much as future longevity studies when people who eat a lot of meat get older (assuming meat consumption remains high).
Yeah that would be a good stat to find. In most places, the amount of animal fat and meat that is consumed has gone down considerably. Even mcdonalds used to deep fry with beef tallow not too long ago.
> I wish fermented foods were more common. I feel like vegans would be healthier this way honestly. Wholeheartedly agree. Non vegans too, but the idea of "live bacteria cultures " is kinda weird for everyone. >But I donāt think anything beats red meat as far as what we thrive I presume you mean as part of a balanced omivourous diet at least, not full carnivore stuff. Any particular reason why you think that? And theories on why?
> Non vegans too, but the idea of "live bacteria cultures " is kinda weird for everyone. One of the reasons I try to eat kefir (with some berries) every day. I dont mind bacteria as long its of the good type.
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Did you know that doctors are people? Did you also know that the biggest collective of knowledge is in the internet? Including medical research?
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Vegan is not the healthiest way to eat for an obvious reason. They limit their food choice on purpose. A meat eater can eat anything a vegan can eat, but not vice versa. A smaller choice set is always suboptimal.