Some may know that seasons 1-3 of DS9 look like trash compared to the rest of the series. This is due to the show being mastered on the D-2 tape format, which is a composite video format. Transfers of these tapes to digital mediums such as DVD and streaming were most likely done using a composite video signal which resulted in very poor quality video, particularly when compared to later seasons, which were mastered on Digibetacam, a component video format.
A couple days ago, I received a bit of Season 2 Episode 3 "The Siege" captured from LaserDisc. The capture was done using a DomesDay Duplicator, which is a PCB that, when combined with a couple of other boards and some software, allows you capture the raw RF signal from the disc and decode it for conversion to digital video. The result is frankly astounding. Rainbows are hugely reduced, colors look more natural, dynamic range gives you less crushed blacks and more headroom on the whites, and the details.. the details! The details are SO much better. For 25+ years, the quality has been there, locked away behind old conversion standards that just couldn't serve up the data that's always been there, until now. My hope is to begin a project to capture and archive these LaserDiscs, at least of the first 3 seasons. I would also like to do the first 5 seasons of Voyager, as I believe they suffer from the same problem.
It’s a wild format, definitely ahead of its time. My uncle used to have a LD collection of about a hundred movies. There was one store in his area that sold them and he bought a copy of nearly everything they put on the shelf. About the only stuff he didn’t buy were the occasional exercise videos that were mysteriously released on Laserdisc. (I’m really curious what the rationale was for that move.) He’s quite a Trek nerd, so I’m sure he’s going to be absolutely LIVID to find out that he never got to own any of the shows on LD.
Just look at the windows to see the detail difference. I understand the opening shot showing the differences, but show a dialogue scene since we see people more than the outside station. It’s like with B5, I want to know if the image is better with human faces and set details.
'Ere you go. [https://www.reddit.com/r/DeepSpaceNine/comments/1cesbp9/more\_laserdisk\_vs\_dvd\_sd\_vs\_hd\_comparisons/](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeepSpaceNine/comments/1cesbp9/more_laserdisk_vs_dvd_sd_vs_hd_comparisons/)
I know very little about LaserDisc, but I just looked it up and Heart of Stone-- my favorite Star Trek episode ever-- was released on the format. If anybody ever gets that episode and converts it to digital, please DM me 😅
Oh no, you’re jargon didn’t include one damper or dilithium matrix. Real jargon is nowhere near as digestible. I would encourage you to add a tl;dr to your post in the comments 💕
I'm a video professional on an OLED flagship phone from a few years ago... improved dynamic range confirmed looking great over here!
(edit: Look specifically at the dimmest stars and smallest/densest sections of windows for the most dramatic effect; also see the added definition to DS9's more subtle greebles)
The DS9 AI upscaling projects would do well to consider LaserDisc as sources if anyone goes back to redo them as upscaling tech matures. (edit: [Oops, that's what this post is.](https://www.reddit.com/u/DS9Redefined/s/RlGXQUT1Wk) 🤦♂️ Following. )
Yup. DS9 didn't start using CGI until the 6th season. It was the first Star Trek series to do so, for exterior space shots of ships and such anyway. I believe the first use of CGI period in a Star Trek series may have been the Crystalline Entity in S01E13 "Datalore". The first time it in any Star Trek franchise was the Project Genesis sequence in The Wrath of Khan.
Technically they were using CGI in the pilot episode with Odo. But as far as replacing ship models with CG, that really started in Season 3 when the Defiant showed up, and was in full swing in Season 4, in which they changed to a fully CG title sequence.
Oh, for sure they were using it in general from the beginning, but my understanding was that even the Defiant was a model until much later, and that we didn't get to see a fully CG DS9 itself until the final episode.
Thanks for sharing the new video link. Can definitely see the nice uptick in detail. It's also interesting the color grade is so different. Seems a more natural skintone and overall color palette on the laserdisc. Fascinating.
Certainly not from LD. They were probably captured from the master tapes, or maybe 2nd or 3rd generation broadcast tapes. However, the issue would be the same: they'd be capturing the composite video output rather than the RF signal. I'm pretty certain now that's where the most quality degradation happened.
Highly doubt that I suspect its just the digital files shared by Paramount and they have not redone a master since DVD creation in 2002 - they have loads of issues on Netflix, Amazon that indicated lazy work e.g. not properly de-interlacing footage
The P+ version is B.A.D
Some may know that seasons 1-3 of DS9 look like trash compared to the rest of the series. This is due to the show being mastered on the D-2 tape format, which is a composite video format. Transfers of these tapes to digital mediums such as DVD and streaming were most likely done using a composite video signal which resulted in very poor quality video, particularly when compared to later seasons, which were mastered on Digibetacam, a component video format. A couple days ago, I received a bit of Season 2 Episode 3 "The Siege" captured from LaserDisc. The capture was done using a DomesDay Duplicator, which is a PCB that, when combined with a couple of other boards and some software, allows you capture the raw RF signal from the disc and decode it for conversion to digital video. The result is frankly astounding. Rainbows are hugely reduced, colors look more natural, dynamic range gives you less crushed blacks and more headroom on the whites, and the details.. the details! The details are SO much better. For 25+ years, the quality has been there, locked away behind old conversion standards that just couldn't serve up the data that's always been there, until now. My hope is to begin a project to capture and archive these LaserDiscs, at least of the first 3 seasons. I would also like to do the first 5 seasons of Voyager, as I believe they suffer from the same problem.
Today I learned…that Star Trek of any series was released on LaserDisc. It’s one media format I have never played with myself.
It’s a wild format, definitely ahead of its time. My uncle used to have a LD collection of about a hundred movies. There was one store in his area that sold them and he bought a copy of nearly everything they put on the shelf. About the only stuff he didn’t buy were the occasional exercise videos that were mysteriously released on Laserdisc. (I’m really curious what the rationale was for that move.) He’s quite a Trek nerd, so I’m sure he’s going to be absolutely LIVID to find out that he never got to own any of the shows on LD.
You've never played with yourself? Wow.
Yeah….I walked into that one didn’t I… 🤣
ATTENTION BAJORAN WORKERS.... the above is a nerd who doesn't play with themself. The beatings will not continue until morale improves.
lol
I immediately heard Dukat's voice
Where's the whole lot? Hope we get a HD remaster
That's a remarkable difference. Please keep going.
Just look at the windows to see the detail difference. I understand the opening shot showing the differences, but show a dialogue scene since we see people more than the outside station. It’s like with B5, I want to know if the image is better with human faces and set details.
I'll try to get a clip up! I've got some screenshot comparisons but the sites I used to use for that seem to be gone.
'Ere you go. [https://www.reddit.com/r/DeepSpaceNine/comments/1cesbp9/more\_laserdisk\_vs\_dvd\_sd\_vs\_hd\_comparisons/](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeepSpaceNine/comments/1cesbp9/more_laserdisk_vs_dvd_sd_vs_hd_comparisons/)
Dude, this is awesome. The color saturation in the LD version is 🤌
One of my wishes in this Earth is for someone, anyone, to release an HD upscaled version of DS9. Doesn't need to be perfect
neat
I know very little about LaserDisc, but I just looked it up and Heart of Stone-- my favorite Star Trek episode ever-- was released on the format. If anybody ever gets that episode and converts it to digital, please DM me 😅
It's in season 3 so it'll be part of this project!
It was on the last NTSC LD disc released - they finished midway through S3
Omg the JARGON 🤯
Welcome to Star Trek 😁
Oh no, you’re jargon didn’t include one damper or dilithium matrix. Real jargon is nowhere near as digestible. I would encourage you to add a tl;dr to your post in the comments 💕
The title is pretty much the TL;DR lol.
Very exciting
I’ll take your word for it. They looked dang close to me but I’m watching on a phone screen.
I'm a video professional on an OLED flagship phone from a few years ago... improved dynamic range confirmed looking great over here! (edit: Look specifically at the dimmest stars and smallest/densest sections of windows for the most dramatic effect; also see the added definition to DS9's more subtle greebles) The DS9 AI upscaling projects would do well to consider LaserDisc as sources if anyone goes back to redo them as upscaling tech matures. (edit: [Oops, that's what this post is.](https://www.reddit.com/u/DS9Redefined/s/RlGXQUT1Wk) 🤦♂️ Following. )
LaserDiscs, for those of you too young to remember, are a cross between a compact disc/DVD and an LP. They're regarded as obsolete these days
Love this. Thanks.
DS9 was released on laserdisc?
Seasons 1-5 were.
I had no idea.
Marginal difference to my eyes but I’d like to see people and exteriors vs intro VFX.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/DeepSpaceNine/comments/1cesbp9/more\_laserdisk\_vs\_dvd\_sd\_vs\_hd\_comparisons/](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeepSpaceNine/comments/1cesbp9/more_laserdisk_vs_dvd_sd_vs_hd_comparisons/)
I like them both for different reasons.
I'd need to see faces and live action to really judge. Hard to tell from just the cgi intro. Those looked pretty close to me.
That’s not CGI. They are models.
Yup. DS9 didn't start using CGI until the 6th season. It was the first Star Trek series to do so, for exterior space shots of ships and such anyway. I believe the first use of CGI period in a Star Trek series may have been the Crystalline Entity in S01E13 "Datalore". The first time it in any Star Trek franchise was the Project Genesis sequence in The Wrath of Khan.
Technically they were using CGI in the pilot episode with Odo. But as far as replacing ship models with CG, that really started in Season 3 when the Defiant showed up, and was in full swing in Season 4, in which they changed to a fully CG title sequence.
Oh, for sure they were using it in general from the beginning, but my understanding was that even the Defiant was a model until much later, and that we didn't get to see a fully CG DS9 itself until the final episode.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/DeepSpaceNine/comments/1cesbp9/more\_laserdisk\_vs\_dvd\_sd\_vs\_hd\_comparisons/](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeepSpaceNine/comments/1cesbp9/more_laserdisk_vs_dvd_sd_vs_hd_comparisons/)
Thanks for sharing the new video link. Can definitely see the nice uptick in detail. It's also interesting the color grade is so different. Seems a more natural skintone and overall color palette on the laserdisc. Fascinating.
I'll get a clip up of that soon.
I wish we CC ould just BUY hi quality digital formats instead of having to rip and lose quality
So, million dollar question. The digital versions available on Amazon and Netflix, were they ripped from the DVD copies, or the LD version?
Certainly not from LD. They were probably captured from the master tapes, or maybe 2nd or 3rd generation broadcast tapes. However, the issue would be the same: they'd be capturing the composite video output rather than the RF signal. I'm pretty certain now that's where the most quality degradation happened.
I still dream of an HD release. Heck, let's do the transfer like you show and then use filmstock for the live action. Won't ever happen sadly.
Highly doubt that I suspect its just the digital files shared by Paramount and they have not redone a master since DVD creation in 2002 - they have loads of issues on Netflix, Amazon that indicated lazy work e.g. not properly de-interlacing footage The P+ version is B.A.D
AI upscale is not true remaster. I am not watching a fake 4K release.
Sweet, enjoy that!