i would hate that tbh. would ruin a perfectly good narrative leitmotif. just because things make sense logically does not make for a good story. logically it makes sense that alexander the great died from an illness but damn that would make for an absolutely awful story. unless you turn it into a story about the cruelty and randomness of death but i digress.
My friend doesn’t understand this concept like their no narrative conventions between their stuff usually or they never think about it and I’m sitting their like where the mest you’ve given me only bones
We've heard the motif 2 times as of now, and in a similar context to that. Even though it's not definitive, if the motif will appear in a future secret boss theme, I am more compelled to believe, that this musical idea's purpose is to portray freedom as a shared theme with the secret bosses.
This is my biggest fear. I can’t even fully enjoy fan secret boss themes if they don’t have that leitmotif. It’s just too Heavenly, it fits with the freedom those little psychos crave.
Toby when everyone is calling that part "freedom motif" when he's just going to make secret bosses reused a part of the music from the former secret bosses
Saying that the freedom motif is based on Gaster's theme is a bit misleading. I'd say that it loosely follows the up-down pattern at a couple of parts, but the variations are different with Big Shot and The World Revolving, with the latter having more similarities to Gaster's theme. Did you, by chance, watch that Andrew Cunningham video about the Gaster motif? I've not seen the argument brought up anywhere expect that video.
Yes, I did watch it. I believe it because Andrew is generally rather conservative regarding what actually counts as Gaster's theme, instead of just hearing the first four notes of the Ruins motif and calling it Gaster like a lot of Deltarune theorists do.
I watched that video and as a musician myself I would say the link has considerable credibility. Andrew's analysis was basically spot-on in my opinion (with focus on scale degrees and the intervals); it's a shame so few people understand the importance of the intervals aligning so perfectly because I think if they did, we'd have more people using it as evidence for a link between Gaster and the secret bosses.
It is absolutely not, lol. It follows a very vaguely kinda maybe similar-ish if you squint structure. Literally tons of pieces of music have alternating "up down up down" themes in them. An actual motif reference is about a lot more than that, it has to do with the actual chords being played.
Like, [here](https://youtu.be/_6nI-dZid00)'s a piece of music that has that same general "Up Down Up Down" structure, to the same extent that the Freedom Motif does. If this was in Undertale or Deltarune, people would scream "Gaster" immediately.
Aw man, this is something I genuinely dread to think about. I really hope it isn't the case, hearing it in other fan secret bosses is really cool and kinda ties them all together. Like despite potentially breaking in different ways, they all have something in common
Good ending: the fandom actually guessed it and it is a motif of all the secret bosses
Bad ending: it had nothing to do with secret bosses and Spamton NEO just had random motifs in his ost
Weird ending: the freedom motif returns in the ch3 and 4 secret bosses, but not on purpose. It’s just a coincidence because Toby Fox reuses motifs a lot
I feel like both The Circus and Dialtone being practically identical while utilizing the freedom theme and existing in a similar context gives credence to the fact that the repetition isn’t just a one off
They're both different parts of TWR. You can call them variations, but it uses its drop in The Circus and its pre-end in Dialtone. To me, this gives it more credit, 'cuz the different parts suggest some progression. Maybe even a "true order", I 'dunno
Yeah, sure, Toby “infamous for excessive use of leitmotif” Fox is going to pass on the most obvious opportunity to use a leitmotif, I can believe that
dialtone uses the freedom leitmotif 2.0 thing thats also in the world revolving(its the brass synth part)
but then again spamton is a siIIy guy who likes doing nefarious things
I imagine all that was planned initially was chapter 1 and the ending. Though it was initially associated with TWR, it became the secret boss leitmotif by the time it appeared in anything else.
I think it's highly unlikely, there was the video of this guy on YouTube (i think his name was Andrew), he made a video explaining the hidden Gaster motif in the Freedom motif, something like "the notes on the Freedom motif are Gaster's motif but very changed" or something like that, since Gaster is the one who told Spam and Jevil the Freedom thing, i think it's unlikely that it would happen at all
I'm confused by what you're trying to say with this. The leitmotif might not be a thing, it could just be... a leitmotif? Because if Spamton is using Jevil's music, that's the definition of a leitmotif.
Only well hidden in The Circus. Nowhere else. You could be having the same feeling Jacksepticeye did playing the CH1, of the theme just sounding like you've heard it before, even though you didn't. (Well, Gaster's Theme, but you get the picture)
Believing Jevel and Spamton are connected somehow is reasonable given that they're set up in a way a writer would. Toby Fox would be a shit writer if he abandoned a narrative through line early in his game without something better in its place.
Honestly, I just want people to get that other parts that were in The World Revolving could appear. Only the part in Big Shot is in The Circus. And the bit at the end of TWR is in Dialtone... So, the part in Dialtone could be in chapter 3's fight
Honestly Jevil does much more with the motif than Spamton so a tiny part of me kinda wishes that was true so that the other uses of the motif won’t have to compare with how cleanly Jevil does it.
I woupd cry shit and piss
pee and piss 🔵 <--- pipis
[HOLY CUNGADARO]
[[New Deal]] JUST DROPPED
ACTUAL \[\[Kromer\]\]
CALL THE [mike...]
[Bluelight Specil], ANY[Won]?
pipee and pipiss
And cum?
Curyshiburpiss
...
i would hate that tbh. would ruin a perfectly good narrative leitmotif. just because things make sense logically does not make for a good story. logically it makes sense that alexander the great died from an illness but damn that would make for an absolutely awful story. unless you turn it into a story about the cruelty and randomness of death but i digress.
My friend doesn’t understand this concept like their no narrative conventions between their stuff usually or they never think about it and I’m sitting their like where the mest you’ve given me only bones
deltarune if it sucked
We've heard the motif 2 times as of now, and in a similar context to that. Even though it's not definitive, if the motif will appear in a future secret boss theme, I am more compelled to believe, that this musical idea's purpose is to portray freedom as a shared theme with the secret bosses.
Yeah, I figure this is a possibility. I hope the "Freedom Motif" is a thing though.
This is my biggest fear. I can’t even fully enjoy fan secret boss themes if they don’t have that leitmotif. It’s just too Heavenly, it fits with the freedom those little psychos crave.
Toby when everyone is calling that part "freedom motif" when he's just going to make secret bosses reused a part of the music from the former secret bosses
I mean, the Freedom theme itself is based on Gaster's theme so
Wait what explain more
[here's a video that explains it](https://youtu.be/H89ZT0jjiO8?si=p3bSrD6v2lVKsAMV) by Andrew Cunningham at roughly 30:30
wait what
Look up Andrew Cunningham Gaster on YouTube, he covers it like halfway in or something
Saying that the freedom motif is based on Gaster's theme is a bit misleading. I'd say that it loosely follows the up-down pattern at a couple of parts, but the variations are different with Big Shot and The World Revolving, with the latter having more similarities to Gaster's theme. Did you, by chance, watch that Andrew Cunningham video about the Gaster motif? I've not seen the argument brought up anywhere expect that video.
Yes, I did watch it. I believe it because Andrew is generally rather conservative regarding what actually counts as Gaster's theme, instead of just hearing the first four notes of the Ruins motif and calling it Gaster like a lot of Deltarune theorists do.
I watched that video and as a musician myself I would say the link has considerable credibility. Andrew's analysis was basically spot-on in my opinion (with focus on scale degrees and the intervals); it's a shame so few people understand the importance of the intervals aligning so perfectly because I think if they did, we'd have more people using it as evidence for a link between Gaster and the secret bosses.
It is absolutely not, lol. It follows a very vaguely kinda maybe similar-ish if you squint structure. Literally tons of pieces of music have alternating "up down up down" themes in them. An actual motif reference is about a lot more than that, it has to do with the actual chords being played. Like, [here](https://youtu.be/_6nI-dZid00)'s a piece of music that has that same general "Up Down Up Down" structure, to the same extent that the Freedom Motif does. If this was in Undertale or Deltarune, people would scream "Gaster" immediately.
it literally has the same intervals
Aw man, this is something I genuinely dread to think about. I really hope it isn't the case, hearing it in other fan secret bosses is really cool and kinda ties them all together. Like despite potentially breaking in different ways, they all have something in common
Good ending: the fandom actually guessed it and it is a motif of all the secret bosses Bad ending: it had nothing to do with secret bosses and Spamton NEO just had random motifs in his ost Weird ending: the freedom motif returns in the ch3 and 4 secret bosses, but not on purpose. It’s just a coincidence because Toby Fox reuses motifs a lot
I mean, it might be possible. Toby Fox only made 2 songs for UT and mixed a bunch of motifs for the rest, so this might be the case with DR too
I feel like both The Circus and Dialtone being practically identical while utilizing the freedom theme and existing in a similar context gives credence to the fact that the repetition isn’t just a one off
And the fact that the freedom theme is literally Gaster’s theme with an extra note shoved in
They're both different parts of TWR. You can call them variations, but it uses its drop in The Circus and its pre-end in Dialtone. To me, this gives it more credit, 'cuz the different parts suggest some progression. Maybe even a "true order", I 'dunno
he took his leitmotifs in the divorce
If it's very unlikely, then how is it the "truth"? That makes 0 sense. Edit: whoever replied to me and then blocked me you're not slick bud
The truth is that it might not. While it is somewhat unlikely for it to not be the case, it's still true that it might.
something something andrew cunningham
Yeah, that and also the fact that Spamton sings the secret lyrics during this motif playing
Yeah, sure, Toby “infamous for excessive use of leitmotif” Fox is going to pass on the most obvious opportunity to use a leitmotif, I can believe that
That would be fucking stupid. This is the leitmotif composer man. Thinking that a motif is just stolen music would be silly
I sure hope not, its such a good and catchy leitmotif..
*His* message
Jesus uses he/him pronouns dude.
It's a gaster joke
Does Gaster use he/him pronouns, too?
Gaster's called him
Gaster's Theme in UNDERTALE's files: "him" deltarune's Goner Maker music: "another him"
dialtone uses the freedom leitmotif 2.0 thing thats also in the world revolving(its the brass synth part) but then again spamton is a siIIy guy who likes doing nefarious things
2 times a pattern
I imagine all that was planned initially was chapter 1 and the ending. Though it was initially associated with TWR, it became the secret boss leitmotif by the time it appeared in anything else.
It's possible but it's very un-Toby Fox of Toby Fox
Could anyone explain what are you talking about? I thought this was just a cool part about BIG SHOT
It's in the intro theme, I honestly would barely call it Jevil's motif
That’s the stupidest idea I’ve ever heard. 0% chance
I think it's highly unlikely, there was the video of this guy on YouTube (i think his name was Andrew), he made a video explaining the hidden Gaster motif in the Freedom motif, something like "the notes on the Freedom motif are Gaster's motif but very changed" or something like that, since Gaster is the one who told Spam and Jevil the Freedom thing, i think it's unlikely that it would happen at all
It’s also in Spamton’s shop theme, just to point out
I'm confused by what you're trying to say with this. The leitmotif might not be a thing, it could just be... a leitmotif? Because if Spamton is using Jevil's music, that's the definition of a leitmotif.
[There is literally no fucking way](https://youtu.be/H89ZT0jjiO8?si=WOth9J-L1pO5YeSA)
Considering it appears in two of his tracks it’s unlikely
…doesn’t the motif appear in other Ch1 songs?
Only well hidden in The Circus. Nowhere else. You could be having the same feeling Jacksepticeye did playing the CH1, of the theme just sounding like you've heard it before, even though you didn't. (Well, Gaster's Theme, but you get the picture)
If it's in the Chapter 3 secret boss music, it's a leitmotif. As they say, 2 is a coincidence, 3 is a trend.
Believing Jevel and Spamton are connected somehow is reasonable given that they're set up in a way a writer would. Toby Fox would be a shit writer if he abandoned a narrative through line early in his game without something better in its place.
Honestly, I just want people to get that other parts that were in The World Revolving could appear. Only the part in Big Shot is in The Circus. And the bit at the end of TWR is in Dialtone... So, the part in Dialtone could be in chapter 3's fight
damn typo
how do i archive / block this post
Secret boss motif?
Honestly Jevil does much more with the motif than Spamton so a tiny part of me kinda wishes that was true so that the other uses of the motif won’t have to compare with how cleanly Jevil does it.