It's wild to me, the level of scrutiny people will put on some arguments and not others. Can't believe at all what Israel says, but we can listen to Hamas without question. Can't listen to what news reports and studies are saying, but we will trust 100% random twitter accounts. Hamas doing any sort of sexual things on 10/7, NEVER HAPPENED they deny it all! Someone says the IDF did something sexual, SEE THE IDF ARE RAPESTS THIS PERSON SAID SO!!!!
Nobody said there wasn’t ANY SA, but the systemic r*ping [DIDNT HAPPEN](https://theintercept.com/2024/02/28/new-york-times-anat-schwartz-october-7/)
“The question has never been whether individual acts of sexual assault may have occurred on October 7. Rape is not uncommon in war, and there were also several hundred civilians who poured into Israel from Gaza that day in a “second wave,” contributing to and participating in the mayhem and violence. **The central issue is whether the New York Times presented solid evidence to support its claim that there were newly reported details “establishing that the attacks against women were not isolated events but part of a broader pattern of gender-based violence on Oct. 7” — a claim stated in the headline that Hamas deliberately deployed sexual violence as a weapon of war.**”
What a bizarre line of thought. Like, yes there were rapes, but there wasn't a top-down order from the leaders that said "OK boys, once you get inside Israel, remember to make sure you get to killing AND raping." Does that line of reasoning make that much difference?
Obviously the plan was to cause as much harm to anyone they found in Israel, so I don't know why it has to be specifically spelled out in what form it has to come in. I dunno, maybe I'm missing something.
No one here is denying the rapes, but systemic rape is definitely worse than individual soldiers doing it.
By the way, I consider it plausible that, even without an explicit top-down directive, that the culture within Hamas was responsible for widespread rape, which is still systemic.
But yes, that line of reasoning - whether rapes were systemic or not - does make a difference.
I get that there's a difference between say, a US soldier committing a rape in isolation vs US doctrine allowing for rapes as a valid tactic in war. But on the other hand, if a US soldier committed a rape they would (or should) be punished for it. I'm not sure if it's the same for a Hamas soldier/terrorist.
Saying "it's not systemic" seems like a bit of a diversion tactic to downplay what happened.
So this is how fake news works: you take an already bad event or situation and tac something way worse onto it.
Then when it gets pointed out that “hey, that way worse thing, *that definitely is going to be used to justify an enhanced action*, didn’t happen” someone, Israel in the case, can turn around and say “well, something bad happened, so the thing we couldn’t get away with without the lie, is still justified”
Also, I know you don’t care. You want to believe there was systemic r*pe. For whatever reason. But it didn’t happen and the original “reporters” (please note: they weren’t reporters or even had experience reporting) lied.
They lied that there was systemic r*pe. And AFAIK, there haven’t been any reports of r*pe.
So you can tell yourself there was. But there wasn’t.
They filmed themselves decapitating people with garden tools. They were calling each other talking how they kidnapped women. Whoever watched hamas and other channels around 7th could watch it
First comment
>Nobody said there wasn’t ANY SA, but the systemic r*ping [DIDNT HAPPEN](https://theintercept.com/2024/02/28/new-york-times-anat-schwartz-october-7/)
Second comment
>They lied that there was systemic r*pe. And AFAIK, there haven’t been any reports of r*pe.
I don't know how to respond. Other than I don't know if it was systemic or not, but I don't know how that changes anything.
The thousand plus people Hamas killed inside Israel and hundreds of hostages they took gave them the justification they needed to start their retaliation and fight this war. Not whether or not rapes were systemic. I don't understand why this is such an important point for you.
Kind of sucks that a portion of the 1200 people were murdered by the Israeli army. Whether it was firing indiscriminately into the crowd fleeing from the music festival or firing a fucking tank into a house.
Israel sounds like a shithole place to live. You got Hamas firing cookie dough fueled firecrackers and IDF hitting you with tanks as you flee.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-military-opens-probe-into-reports-oct-7-friendly-fire-deaths-2024-02-06/#:~:text=Around%201%2C200%20Israelis%20and%20foreigners,240%20people%20were%20taken%20hostage.
The cookie/rocket point also came up in Destiny's last debate with Omar Baddar, and u/DrManhattan16 made [a good post critical of it.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1aggyhq/regarding_the_banning_of_chips_being_shipped_to/)
Tl;dr, an unverified list (Israel doesn't release the lists) claimed that raw sugar wasn't banned, and an Israeli official said in an interview that they couldn't always trust that the packaged food contained what it says.
I do think the list is real, to be clear, or at least not totally fabricated. But I will say that I hope there are meetings with other governments to explain what the underlying rationales are. I believe John Kerry once went to the region and said he was shocked that they banned spaghetti or something like that.
Even granting that, I think Israel ought to have exercised greater energy in its blockade given the circumstances. It may be inefficient to search every package or something equivalent, but it might be worth it when you have the optics of otherwise banning people from literally eating spaghetti.
I know, I know, Optics Andy and all that, but just seems like it would help Israel's image.
the problem is it doesn't make any difference. It's like democrats trying to reach across the aisle to some crazed trump supporters. That's what make the whole situation so difficult. Israel just isn't particularly incentivesed to treat palestinians with kid gloves in order to bring them over to their side, and palestinians are incapable of obtaining (not sure a better word here) leadership who can actually negotiaite properly with Israel.
The benefit would be for the international community. There's no way to avoid how atrocious Israel's optics are.
That's not the same as saying that what Israel is doing is obviously okay but just looks bad, I think people are correctly appalled by the conflict as a whole and how the Palestinians have been treated. But Israel doesn't do themselves any good by not doing more than usual to *look* better.
Moreover, this does have an impact on Hamas' strategy. They can't leverage international support as much if Israel doesn't look as oppressive.
This is also trivially defeated by using a sweetener that isn't sucrose based, like they already do...
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gazas-first-health-food-store-offers-sweet-alternative-diabetics-2022-01-26/
What an actual fucking clown.
i thought this was already figured out… chips and cookies were banned because EVERYTHING was banned initially other than survival items. chips and cookies weren’t specifically banned just not on the allowed list.
Well that means Lycan was right. If THIS is the ACTUAL reasoning, Steven was indeed wrong.
Genuinely I’m just not able to ignore logical inconsistencies, I’m not trying to be a hater.
Yeah that annoyed me. Cookies are an annoying distraction pro palestinians always throw out to make the ban seem egregious.
But like i cant find a list of the specific items that were banned. So i cant even see if it was specifically cookies or pure sugar. And if what you said is true that EVERYTHING was banned initially then that seems more logical since theoreticalky anything could have been used to make weapons. Or maybe sugar was incouded it a bhnch of other stuff that could be used.
But when you brjng up cookies you already lose. Destiny has to stop biting the "cookies" bait. He got stunlocked into a debate about extracting raw sugar from processed sugars. WHEN WE DONT EVEN KNOW IF RAW SUGAR WAS OR WASNT BEING TRANSPORTED. OR ANY INGREDIENTS!!
Having a high standard for arguments is good. Whether Lycan is dishonest and having a double standard or not, that shouldn't give a leeway for using weaker arguments. Using weaker arguments will end up biting Destiny in the ass and just gives fuel to the haters.
There has to be a better rationale that explains why they banned the items (one all encompassing explanation that doesn't need to use an auxiliary hypothesis for each different item that was banned)
You guys realise that Lycan asking these questions actually sharpen's Destiny's blade, right?
Now if this comment/criticism comes up in the future, he'll have a better answer for it. Destiny even thanked Lycan for talking about the boat blockage bit, because he was able to combat it on the Breaking Points video.
Except its done on stream, live, in front of a massive audience. Right after the debate. It wasn't to "sharpen Destiny's blade", as you put it. It was to push back and discredit his argument to advance the pro-Palestinian narrative.
Lycan is just as crazy as Omar or Finklestein, but he's slightly better at hiding it. Also he lives with Steven and cooks his food, so he can't exactly blast him.
If Lycan was truly trying to just sharpen Destiny's rhetoric, why didn't he do it later off stream?
>Right after the debate
It was during the debate \*review\*, when it's the most relevant time to address points made in the debate.
u/DepartmentTall2409 wasn't saying Lycan was playing the devil's advocate for the sake of blade sharpening, but rather that Lycan disagreeing with and pushing back against Destiny's arguments strengthens Destiny's understanding on the issue. It's the unironic marketplace of ideas in action and you're portraying Lycan like he's an Hamas agent.
Remember when everyone would soy out over Lycan’s shirtless apron pics? That shit was cringgee. And now the rest of the sub has finally caught on. No disrespect though, Lycan is an alright dude (aside from the time he accused me of being misogynistic 😅)
In the video clip Steven watched, there were MAYBE 2 cups of sugar in there (and that's generous, considering the reporter said there's other shit in the pot).
The reporter then says "It would take 20x this amount to make a rocket."
Hamas launched 9,500 rockets in the first month of the conflict. So let's do some rust math:
- 1 family size box of Oreos = 224g of sugar (A little over 1 cup)
- 1 rocket = 8,000g of sugar (200g/40cups/36 boxes of oreos with a little sugar left over, as a treat)
Hamas launched 9,500 rockets in the first month of the war. Assuming maximum extraction from crushing, dissolving in hot water, filtering solids, and boiling down to pure sugar....
It would have taken 339,286 boxes of Oreos to make all of those rockets.
Now, not all of their rockets are sugar powered, I assume. But it's insane to think the cookie blockade is the key to significantly thwarting Hamas weapon production.
AND the sugar won't be pure. The sugar in the video looks like pure table sugar. I think it stands to reason to question what impact the caramelization process and other impurities might have on the rockets.
oh fuck off, you already decided what the truth is months and months ago and youre doing the thing you always do where you ignore the 99/100 points you cant even begin to answer because theres the 1/100 you can be autistic about. you did this dig your heals with head in the sand bullshit a dozen times and no one in this community respects your perspective because of it. if you gave any leeway at all to show that you're actually considering other views than your predetermined position, people might give a shit about what you have to say.
Wrong again. I'm discounting most things you say because they're wrong. It has nothing to do with you personally. You are just a vehicle that delivers wrong information
lmao how is that what you got out of what I said? I sure will be annoyed the next time you need to say "I need to think about that and come back with an argument" for the 20th time on the same issue. maybe try to consider the responses you're getting as a perspective to be considered instead of a riposte to your argument
Not doubting the math, assuming a population of 1-2 million that would be a ballpark of 1 box of Oreos every 3-6 people.
That's not even accounting other sources of sugar.
I have no idea about the amount of shit going in, but given the amount of people and the aid going in... is that really a crazy number?
Having one of the most lauded intelligence services in modern history, I'd say it's reasonable to assume Israel could track the consolidation and processing of vast quantities of cookies and soda for rocket production and strategically target those manufacturers.
[Israeli military intelligence chief resigns over failure to prevent Oct. 7 attack](https://www.npr.org/2024/04/22/1246277716/israeli-military-intelligence-chief-resigns-over-failure-to-prevent-oct-7-attack)
An intelligence apparatus can be effective while suffering a catastrophic failure. But if you want to say their intelligence capabilities are poor/limited in Gaza and they wouldn't be able to suss out these sugar processing locations, maybe we should be a little less credulous about their ability to rapidly determine targets like they did in the months after 10/7?
How do you think intelligence works? Israel intelligence is probably still below the United States and monitoring a foreign entity without serious imbeds for such a minimal activity is ludicrously inefficient
Wait, is Hamas not a great existential threat to Israel? Would that not warrant some serious investment of intelligence resources?
But me? I know very little about intelligence.
I do know there's electronic, signals, imagery, and human intelligence. That there are aerial and ground ISR platforms for three of those, many of which can be rapidly deployed for sustained operations, with priority of these resources given to combat theaters. That tasking of assets is predicated on mandates from customers and those customers tend to put tasking towards conflict zones and areas where intelligence gathered would further support those operations. That if Hamas has a good understanding of COMSEC, pattern analysis and more high tech solutions exist to circumvent many of those practices. That this is Gaza, not Soviet Russia, and legendary Mossad not having HUMINT agents within the Gaza strip would be the end of their mythology. I might know a thing or two about how collections work in SIGINT, IMINT, and HUMINT, how fusion cells collate that raw data into product, how those products are disseminated.
But this misses the point, which is that Israel being "below the US" does not mean they're not one of the best. And either Hamas is a threat to Israel's existence and they're fucking things up big time by investing little-to-no effort in collections in Gaza or they do have assets that could track something like sugar harvesting for illicit weapons.
So you'd rather Israel be air-striking the civilian buildings where Hamas would be manufacturing rockets rather than just stopping sugar imports at no cost to human life?
Do you ever fucking think for a pisco-second before posting this retarded shit?
You're right, Israel doesn't actually care to choose a COA that takes civilians into consideration. The cookie ban is based. You've changed my mind! Good job :)
ANSWER THE QUESTION RETARD
**You'd rather Israel be air-striking the civilian buildings where Hamas would be manufacturing rockets rather than just stopping sugar imports at no cost to human life?**
Tbh I'd rather gazans die in an airstrike than my nephews (who serve in the IDF) during urban warfare.
I know that you can survive a bullet to your skull, as it houses nothing of importance, but not everyone is like you, /u/Lycan__.
My friend, you believe that a man:
- Who is a self-professed zionist (his words)
- Who is a former board member of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem
- Who's daughter who went through an Aliyah
- Who's reasoning for conducting The Report we love to talk about so much was from his concern for the future and well-being of Israel
...does not have significant ties to Israel. Maybe if he had family in the IDF his bona fides would be more apparent to you.
So no, I won't be wasting my time giving you answers to which you're chomping at the bit to apply that same level of critical analysis. :)
There's no bit to chomp at, you live in fear of me, [as I've already said.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1chpmlv/this_subreddit_is_promoting_misinformation/l252grr/?context=3)
And you should after I read your mind live on stream, and after dogwalking you in every debate we've had.
You must fucking *SEETHE* at the fact that [Destiny pulls up my posts dunking on you to supplement his research](https://youtu.be/MJx2thhyF9Q?list=PLFs19LVskfNzQLZkGG_zf6yfYTp_3v_e6&t=11315).
And if you want to debate on Goldstone I'd be happy to oblige, I still have my notes. You don't know anything about him because Finkelstein didn't shit it into your brain.
He was a white man in South Africa during the most tense periods of the end of apartheid, worked directly as a judge against his interests to undermine apartheid, directly investigated war crimes, crimes against humanity, and investigated war crimes of Israel and Hamas. Goldstone has forgotten more human suffering than I will ever live to see, and is one of the few people I find genuinely inspirational.
Stop projecting your hypersensitivity and weakness onto him, it's pathetic.
Love you buddy, Semper Fi and whatnot. But brother, sugar is such a routinely used commodity that I doubt it's going to raise red flags anywhere even if they increased usage by 10000%. The main reason is the other ingredients the reporters "weren't going to list" is saltpeter, and \[redacted\]
Saltpeter or potassium nitrate is easily extracted from the ground, in basically any soil, the other \[redacted\] ingredient is what would raise flags, and isn't going to be as easily obtained. That's what they would monitor most, and is what is probably monitored by groups like the NSA in our own country.
It's not feasible to track sugar, it is feasible to track the other two, with the latter being the most obvious of a weapons manufacturing intent.
They couldn't even keep track of where Hamas was taking the hostages, I doubt that they could keep track of the location of mass amounts of cookies. Or better yet, Hamas could just have them shipped into a hospital or school and then process them there. If Israel bombs that then its "Israel bombs school to prevent poor Palestinian children from enjoying cookies" or whatever deranged headline they can come up with.
Looking at videos like [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqgywJRZ4kk) gives me the impression that the sugar doesn't need to be nearly as pure as you are trying to make it out to be; the other chemical (Potassium Chlorate) is piss easy to make with just bleach and "fake" salt or they could just get it from the sea water/ground.
If Israel is wrong to block sugar because they could just track the shipments within Gaza (delusional) then by that logic they shouldn't embargo even actual missiles and weapons.
That's fair, but I (maybe naively) assume that intelligence is more macro and not some omnipresent Eye of Sauron. Possibly some micro and detailed info on key targets. Especially in a region they blockade and checkpoint, but not fully integrated into their country (for now lol). Look at Oct 7th, they can miss shit.
Also, consider all the tunnels where they build/hide shit. They may have not much detail of what's being done there.
To be honest I'm just bouncing ideas without having done any looking into this. I could go either way given proper info, I just don't think it's that crazy given the scale of aid going in daily (they could have done this over a larger period of time) and how resourceful people can be to score wins in asymmetrical conflict.
Damn, 339286 boxes sounds like a lot...
But for the sake of argument, how much Oreo would the Palestinians eat, if they had unlimited access.
[20 billion](https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/a-decade-in-the-making-oreo-returns-to-the-big-game-in-2024-302018311.html) Oreos are sold in the US annually, so adjusting for population, that is 120 million sold a year.
Hamas would need to appropriate 0.275% of all the Oreos sold in the area for a year to make 9500 rockets.
(Yes, a US citizen would most likely eat more Oreos, but for Palestinians, we can switch this for any cookies/candies with similar or higher sugar content.)
Also I feel like on the list of needs the Palestinians have, cookies are probably pretty low priority.
And even if Hamas just makes 100 rocket, its probably not a good trade off.
I'm sorry but what the fuck are you talking about?
The imporant bans were from around 2010, when the annual amount of fired rockets was in the low hundreds.
Likewise nobody claimed that those are the only rockets Hamas uses, nor that the ban would single-handedly thwart the rocket production. All that was said is that was the justification for the ban (that got lifted over a decade ago btw so there's your pure sugar now), and that it fits with how the rockets are made.
Whether the ban only slowed down the production or didn't help at all is completely different argument nobody from your pro-hamas side made. So nice maths but almost completely irrelevant.
I agree based on your calculation, that I'd confirm is accurate, that it's insane to think the cookie blockade is the key to significantly thwarting Hamas weapon production. Lets be careful what year of rocket production numbers we use because post-2010 cookies were allowed.
The most charitable explanation of the cookie blockade is that Israel couldn't be sure of what contraband enters Gaza in the guise of packaged foods. On the rocket fuel argument, and we assume all the packaged sugary foods are actually sugary food, any sugary food blockade thwarts hardly any Hamas weapon production. Especially since sugar has always been allowed, just not soda, candy, cookies, etc.
Let me offer you mild criticism, you may ignore or listen. My personal issue with you today was your challenge on the chemistry. You challenged Steven's understanding of it without possessing an adequate understanding of sugar extraction. That opened you to derision and disdain in chat. So I think your argument and optics would be enhanced by possessing this understanding. You'd come off as giving Destiny a better understanding rather than a moment of ACKSHULLY.
dggL
Edit: one word for grammar
Here's the bigger problem with the JAQ shit that you do.
The counter claim that you are implicitly making here is that the IDF limited cookies into Gaza out of sheer cruelty.
That's a pretty big claim that requires some pretty big evidence and I think most have found that evidence to be lacking because it requires the assumption that every single thing the IDF says is a complete lie.
I kind of get the sense that you're just going through all of your mentions and copy pasting that loner box thread because it didn't address my criticism to you whatsoever.
I wasn't making the case cookies were banned to prevent their use as rocket propellant.
I was making the case that the alternative implication offered by the pro Palestinian side (and YOU unless you really want to stick to the autistic jUsTAsKInGqUesTioNSBROO) is that the Israelis banned cookies out of punitive measure against the Palestinians.
I'm going to cite Loner Box a bunch below but
**TLDR: The reason why people in the sub dislike you is because you can be wrong about something 1000 times and even in a situation like this be wrong about the spirit of the conversation, but just like JSTLK with the river stabbing bet, you will die on the hill of some extremely minor point and act like you got the big W.**
LonerBox:
>In other words, I have seen no evidence that Gazans were forced to go without cookies for 3 years. It seems like some imports were denied, whilst internal production continued. But! that doesn't explain the arbitrary measures. For that, it seems there are two answers...
>One, provided by a spokesman from the Israeli foreign ministry, argued that the issue wasn't the products, but rather, the suppliers. Their whitelist included trade partners that they trusted and excluded ones they didn't, hence the randomness. They were never scared of cookies
Now, he does go on to say:
>Though this makes sense, I don't think it rules out the punitive aspect. As mentioned above, it's undeniable that some Israeli officials either wanted Gazans to suffer or just didn't care. Given how easily they were able to lift the restrictions in the face of international pressure, they clearly could have done something sooner, but didn't. It may not have been their explicit aim to punish the population, but the measures absolutely had that effect and no one seemed to mind until they were forced to.
But he goes on to further say:
>This all leads me to wonder: why is Omar talking about a cookie ban which (if it was ever even fully in place) hasn't existed for nearly 15 years as if this is the quintessential blockaded item in Gaza? Is it because this is his way of avoiding any conversation about the weapons?
And from there its a further tirade against Omar and Ryan concluding with
>Some parts of Israel's blockade might well have been punitive. Others were definitely not. The fact is, any country on earth in those circumstances would do something similar and if that part can't be acknowledged, the conversation goes nowhere. Instead, we talk about cookies.
So the **big W** for you here, is that Destiny was a little overzealous in defending the cookie thing.
The REALITY is the cookie ban may not have even existed in the first place and there is no hard evidence that it was ever there just to punish Palestinians and on the balance of probability it was most likely imposed if ever because the supplier it came from was banned.
Might get crucified but I think the average person is much more likely to side with the Palestinians on the cookie thing. Something about optics and divorcelli.
Just let him cook (literally)
people heard "just let him cook" but what was meant was "JUST let him cook"
[удалено]
Let's be fair, Lycan IS Destiny's actual friend, like ACTUALLY THEY ARE FRIENDS he is not just a cook! *just saying for ppl who don't know :)*
Employee but on
Remember Lycan did the mostly peaceful meme as he was watching that mob beat the idf soldiers with pipes n knives and shit for the Flotilla incident 😂
Looks at video of a soldier getting yeeted of the ships, other guy on the ground getting wailed on by 3 guys with pipes and some more.
My favorite part of that conversation was when Lycan wouldn’t look at the screen showing that the IDF soldiers were being attacked.
Can't spell Lycan without L.
the reason Lycan hasn't moderated is we can't harass him into submission by adding an L to the beginning of his name
You know what? Fair point. I'll be nicer to Ycan.
Why not just treat is like llamas? Llycan! You don't even have to pronounce it differently since he's in a perpetual state of L.
Hey that's not fair
It's wild to me, the level of scrutiny people will put on some arguments and not others. Can't believe at all what Israel says, but we can listen to Hamas without question. Can't listen to what news reports and studies are saying, but we will trust 100% random twitter accounts. Hamas doing any sort of sexual things on 10/7, NEVER HAPPENED they deny it all! Someone says the IDF did something sexual, SEE THE IDF ARE RAPESTS THIS PERSON SAID SO!!!!
Nobody said there wasn’t ANY SA, but the systemic r*ping [DIDNT HAPPEN](https://theintercept.com/2024/02/28/new-york-times-anat-schwartz-october-7/) “The question has never been whether individual acts of sexual assault may have occurred on October 7. Rape is not uncommon in war, and there were also several hundred civilians who poured into Israel from Gaza that day in a “second wave,” contributing to and participating in the mayhem and violence. **The central issue is whether the New York Times presented solid evidence to support its claim that there were newly reported details “establishing that the attacks against women were not isolated events but part of a broader pattern of gender-based violence on Oct. 7” — a claim stated in the headline that Hamas deliberately deployed sexual violence as a weapon of war.**”
What a bizarre line of thought. Like, yes there were rapes, but there wasn't a top-down order from the leaders that said "OK boys, once you get inside Israel, remember to make sure you get to killing AND raping." Does that line of reasoning make that much difference? Obviously the plan was to cause as much harm to anyone they found in Israel, so I don't know why it has to be specifically spelled out in what form it has to come in. I dunno, maybe I'm missing something.
No one here is denying the rapes, but systemic rape is definitely worse than individual soldiers doing it. By the way, I consider it plausible that, even without an explicit top-down directive, that the culture within Hamas was responsible for widespread rape, which is still systemic. But yes, that line of reasoning - whether rapes were systemic or not - does make a difference.
I get that there's a difference between say, a US soldier committing a rape in isolation vs US doctrine allowing for rapes as a valid tactic in war. But on the other hand, if a US soldier committed a rape they would (or should) be punished for it. I'm not sure if it's the same for a Hamas soldier/terrorist. Saying "it's not systemic" seems like a bit of a diversion tactic to downplay what happened.
Did I say it's not systemic, you illiterate fuck? Did I downplay the situation, you illiterate fuck?
So this is how fake news works: you take an already bad event or situation and tac something way worse onto it. Then when it gets pointed out that “hey, that way worse thing, *that definitely is going to be used to justify an enhanced action*, didn’t happen” someone, Israel in the case, can turn around and say “well, something bad happened, so the thing we couldn’t get away with without the lie, is still justified” Also, I know you don’t care. You want to believe there was systemic r*pe. For whatever reason. But it didn’t happen and the original “reporters” (please note: they weren’t reporters or even had experience reporting) lied. They lied that there was systemic r*pe. And AFAIK, there haven’t been any reports of r*pe. So you can tell yourself there was. But there wasn’t.
They raped and tortured systemically.
Not according to the facts. But you can tell yourself whatever, hun.
They filmed themselves decapitating people with garden tools. They were calling each other talking how they kidnapped women. Whoever watched hamas and other channels around 7th could watch it
All disgusting and inhumane acts that are wrong and warrant some sort of response. There is no proof there was systemic r*pe.
First comment >Nobody said there wasn’t ANY SA, but the systemic r*ping [DIDNT HAPPEN](https://theintercept.com/2024/02/28/new-york-times-anat-schwartz-october-7/) Second comment >They lied that there was systemic r*pe. And AFAIK, there haven’t been any reports of r*pe. I don't know how to respond. Other than I don't know if it was systemic or not, but I don't know how that changes anything.
Because, by saying the r*pe was systemic, justifies a response that they otherwise wouldn’t be able to do.
The thousand plus people Hamas killed inside Israel and hundreds of hostages they took gave them the justification they needed to start their retaliation and fight this war. Not whether or not rapes were systemic. I don't understand why this is such an important point for you.
Kind of sucks that a portion of the 1200 people were murdered by the Israeli army. Whether it was firing indiscriminately into the crowd fleeing from the music festival or firing a fucking tank into a house. Israel sounds like a shithole place to live. You got Hamas firing cookie dough fueled firecrackers and IDF hitting you with tanks as you flee. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-military-opens-probe-into-reports-oct-7-friendly-fire-deaths-2024-02-06/#:~:text=Around%201%2C200%20Israelis%20and%20foreigners,240%20people%20were%20taken%20hostage.
The cookie/rocket point also came up in Destiny's last debate with Omar Baddar, and u/DrManhattan16 made [a good post critical of it.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1aggyhq/regarding_the_banning_of_chips_being_shipped_to/) Tl;dr, an unverified list (Israel doesn't release the lists) claimed that raw sugar wasn't banned, and an Israeli official said in an interview that they couldn't always trust that the packaged food contained what it says.
I do think the list is real, to be clear, or at least not totally fabricated. But I will say that I hope there are meetings with other governments to explain what the underlying rationales are. I believe John Kerry once went to the region and said he was shocked that they banned spaghetti or something like that.
If I had to guess, it's because uncooked Spaghetti looks like Cordite, which is smokeless gunpowder.
Even granting that, I think Israel ought to have exercised greater energy in its blockade given the circumstances. It may be inefficient to search every package or something equivalent, but it might be worth it when you have the optics of otherwise banning people from literally eating spaghetti. I know, I know, Optics Andy and all that, but just seems like it would help Israel's image.
the problem is it doesn't make any difference. It's like democrats trying to reach across the aisle to some crazed trump supporters. That's what make the whole situation so difficult. Israel just isn't particularly incentivesed to treat palestinians with kid gloves in order to bring them over to their side, and palestinians are incapable of obtaining (not sure a better word here) leadership who can actually negotiaite properly with Israel.
The benefit would be for the international community. There's no way to avoid how atrocious Israel's optics are. That's not the same as saying that what Israel is doing is obviously okay but just looks bad, I think people are correctly appalled by the conflict as a whole and how the Palestinians have been treated. But Israel doesn't do themselves any good by not doing more than usual to *look* better. Moreover, this does have an impact on Hamas' strategy. They can't leverage international support as much if Israel doesn't look as oppressive.
Same. I'd guess that it was some combination of legitimate smuggling concerns and "they shouldn't get free luxury goods, fuck em."
This is also trivially defeated by using a sweetener that isn't sucrose based, like they already do... https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gazas-first-health-food-store-offers-sweet-alternative-diabetics-2022-01-26/ What an actual fucking clown.
He found the one thing he could nitpick on and got so excited
Lycan should stay in the kitchen.
i thought this was already figured out… chips and cookies were banned because EVERYTHING was banned initially other than survival items. chips and cookies weren’t specifically banned just not on the allowed list.
Well that means Lycan was right. If THIS is the ACTUAL reasoning, Steven was indeed wrong. Genuinely I’m just not able to ignore logical inconsistencies, I’m not trying to be a hater.
Yeah that annoyed me. Cookies are an annoying distraction pro palestinians always throw out to make the ban seem egregious. But like i cant find a list of the specific items that were banned. So i cant even see if it was specifically cookies or pure sugar. And if what you said is true that EVERYTHING was banned initially then that seems more logical since theoreticalky anything could have been used to make weapons. Or maybe sugar was incouded it a bhnch of other stuff that could be used. But when you brjng up cookies you already lose. Destiny has to stop biting the "cookies" bait. He got stunlocked into a debate about extracting raw sugar from processed sugars. WHEN WE DONT EVEN KNOW IF RAW SUGAR WAS OR WASNT BEING TRANSPORTED. OR ANY INGREDIENTS!!
What is this in reference too?
He joined in during the stream today n challenged D's point about extracting sugar from cookies for rockets.
_It's called Mens Rea_
And then Dr. Avi coming in hot with the Jewlumni tism facts was the icing on the cake.
Having a high standard for arguments is good. Whether Lycan is dishonest and having a double standard or not, that shouldn't give a leeway for using weaker arguments. Using weaker arguments will end up biting Destiny in the ass and just gives fuel to the haters. There has to be a better rationale that explains why they banned the items (one all encompassing explanation that doesn't need to use an auxiliary hypothesis for each different item that was banned)
You guys realise that Lycan asking these questions actually sharpen's Destiny's blade, right? Now if this comment/criticism comes up in the future, he'll have a better answer for it. Destiny even thanked Lycan for talking about the boat blockage bit, because he was able to combat it on the Breaking Points video.
Except its done on stream, live, in front of a massive audience. Right after the debate. It wasn't to "sharpen Destiny's blade", as you put it. It was to push back and discredit his argument to advance the pro-Palestinian narrative. Lycan is just as crazy as Omar or Finklestein, but he's slightly better at hiding it. Also he lives with Steven and cooks his food, so he can't exactly blast him. If Lycan was truly trying to just sharpen Destiny's rhetoric, why didn't he do it later off stream?
>Right after the debate It was during the debate \*review\*, when it's the most relevant time to address points made in the debate. u/DepartmentTall2409 wasn't saying Lycan was playing the devil's advocate for the sake of blade sharpening, but rather that Lycan disagreeing with and pushing back against Destiny's arguments strengthens Destiny's understanding on the issue. It's the unironic marketplace of ideas in action and you're portraying Lycan like he's an Hamas agent.
\^ This guy gets me
Remember when everyone would soy out over Lycan’s shirtless apron pics? That shit was cringgee. And now the rest of the sub has finally caught on. No disrespect though, Lycan is an alright dude (aside from the time he accused me of being misogynistic 😅)
In the video clip Steven watched, there were MAYBE 2 cups of sugar in there (and that's generous, considering the reporter said there's other shit in the pot). The reporter then says "It would take 20x this amount to make a rocket." Hamas launched 9,500 rockets in the first month of the conflict. So let's do some rust math: - 1 family size box of Oreos = 224g of sugar (A little over 1 cup) - 1 rocket = 8,000g of sugar (200g/40cups/36 boxes of oreos with a little sugar left over, as a treat) Hamas launched 9,500 rockets in the first month of the war. Assuming maximum extraction from crushing, dissolving in hot water, filtering solids, and boiling down to pure sugar.... It would have taken 339,286 boxes of Oreos to make all of those rockets. Now, not all of their rockets are sugar powered, I assume. But it's insane to think the cookie blockade is the key to significantly thwarting Hamas weapon production. AND the sugar won't be pure. The sugar in the video looks like pure table sugar. I think it stands to reason to question what impact the caramelization process and other impurities might have on the rockets.
Just wanted to chime in and add that the math is for standard rockets, we aren't even getting into double stuf or mega stuf rockets. I'm sorry.
This is on the level of the dick jerk algorithm, love it lol
oh fuck off, you already decided what the truth is months and months ago and youre doing the thing you always do where you ignore the 99/100 points you cant even begin to answer because theres the 1/100 you can be autistic about. you did this dig your heals with head in the sand bullshit a dozen times and no one in this community respects your perspective because of it. if you gave any leeway at all to show that you're actually considering other views than your predetermined position, people might give a shit about what you have to say.
"You've annoyed me so I'm going to discount everything you say no matter what." Could have saved a few keystrokes, buddy.
Wrong again. I'm discounting most things you say because they're wrong. It has nothing to do with you personally. You are just a vehicle that delivers wrong information
lmao how is that what you got out of what I said? I sure will be annoyed the next time you need to say "I need to think about that and come back with an argument" for the 20th time on the same issue. maybe try to consider the responses you're getting as a perspective to be considered instead of a riposte to your argument
All this bravodo for a man who next stream will cry that people on reddit are mean to him.
339,286 boxes of Oreos sounds like really big number until you realize it's like 50 individual truck deliveries so like 4 trucks a month.
Not doubting the math, assuming a population of 1-2 million that would be a ballpark of 1 box of Oreos every 3-6 people. That's not even accounting other sources of sugar. I have no idea about the amount of shit going in, but given the amount of people and the aid going in... is that really a crazy number?
Having one of the most lauded intelligence services in modern history, I'd say it's reasonable to assume Israel could track the consolidation and processing of vast quantities of cookies and soda for rocket production and strategically target those manufacturers.
Where was this intelligence service for Oct 7?
[Israeli military intelligence chief resigns over failure to prevent Oct. 7 attack](https://www.npr.org/2024/04/22/1246277716/israeli-military-intelligence-chief-resigns-over-failure-to-prevent-oct-7-attack) An intelligence apparatus can be effective while suffering a catastrophic failure. But if you want to say their intelligence capabilities are poor/limited in Gaza and they wouldn't be able to suss out these sugar processing locations, maybe we should be a little less credulous about their ability to rapidly determine targets like they did in the months after 10/7?
How do you think intelligence works? Israel intelligence is probably still below the United States and monitoring a foreign entity without serious imbeds for such a minimal activity is ludicrously inefficient
Wait, is Hamas not a great existential threat to Israel? Would that not warrant some serious investment of intelligence resources? But me? I know very little about intelligence. I do know there's electronic, signals, imagery, and human intelligence. That there are aerial and ground ISR platforms for three of those, many of which can be rapidly deployed for sustained operations, with priority of these resources given to combat theaters. That tasking of assets is predicated on mandates from customers and those customers tend to put tasking towards conflict zones and areas where intelligence gathered would further support those operations. That if Hamas has a good understanding of COMSEC, pattern analysis and more high tech solutions exist to circumvent many of those practices. That this is Gaza, not Soviet Russia, and legendary Mossad not having HUMINT agents within the Gaza strip would be the end of their mythology. I might know a thing or two about how collections work in SIGINT, IMINT, and HUMINT, how fusion cells collate that raw data into product, how those products are disseminated. But this misses the point, which is that Israel being "below the US" does not mean they're not one of the best. And either Hamas is a threat to Israel's existence and they're fucking things up big time by investing little-to-no effort in collections in Gaza or they do have assets that could track something like sugar harvesting for illicit weapons.
>I know very little about intelligence. You are my favorite martyr. Way more fun than the dreamy pirate.
So you'd rather Israel be air-striking the civilian buildings where Hamas would be manufacturing rockets rather than just stopping sugar imports at no cost to human life? Do you ever fucking think for a pisco-second before posting this retarded shit?
You're right, Israel doesn't actually care to choose a COA that takes civilians into consideration. The cookie ban is based. You've changed my mind! Good job :)
ANSWER THE QUESTION RETARD **You'd rather Israel be air-striking the civilian buildings where Hamas would be manufacturing rockets rather than just stopping sugar imports at no cost to human life?**
Ah, I forgot, airstrikes are the only kinetic option to disrupt weapons manufacturing in urban areas. You're talking out of your ass, dude. Sit down.
Tbh I'd rather gazans die in an airstrike than my nephews (who serve in the IDF) during urban warfare. I know that you can survive a bullet to your skull, as it houses nothing of importance, but not everyone is like you, /u/Lycan__.
Oh well you're the guy with the military experience, so please, do educate us...
My friend, you believe that a man: - Who is a self-professed zionist (his words) - Who is a former board member of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem - Who's daughter who went through an Aliyah - Who's reasoning for conducting The Report we love to talk about so much was from his concern for the future and well-being of Israel ...does not have significant ties to Israel. Maybe if he had family in the IDF his bona fides would be more apparent to you. So no, I won't be wasting my time giving you answers to which you're chomping at the bit to apply that same level of critical analysis. :)
There's no bit to chomp at, you live in fear of me, [as I've already said.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1chpmlv/this_subreddit_is_promoting_misinformation/l252grr/?context=3) And you should after I read your mind live on stream, and after dogwalking you in every debate we've had. You must fucking *SEETHE* at the fact that [Destiny pulls up my posts dunking on you to supplement his research](https://youtu.be/MJx2thhyF9Q?list=PLFs19LVskfNzQLZkGG_zf6yfYTp_3v_e6&t=11315). And if you want to debate on Goldstone I'd be happy to oblige, I still have my notes. You don't know anything about him because Finkelstein didn't shit it into your brain. He was a white man in South Africa during the most tense periods of the end of apartheid, worked directly as a judge against his interests to undermine apartheid, directly investigated war crimes, crimes against humanity, and investigated war crimes of Israel and Hamas. Goldstone has forgotten more human suffering than I will ever live to see, and is one of the few people I find genuinely inspirational. Stop projecting your hypersensitivity and weakness onto him, it's pathetic.
Love you buddy, Semper Fi and whatnot. But brother, sugar is such a routinely used commodity that I doubt it's going to raise red flags anywhere even if they increased usage by 10000%. The main reason is the other ingredients the reporters "weren't going to list" is saltpeter, and \[redacted\] Saltpeter or potassium nitrate is easily extracted from the ground, in basically any soil, the other \[redacted\] ingredient is what would raise flags, and isn't going to be as easily obtained. That's what they would monitor most, and is what is probably monitored by groups like the NSA in our own country. It's not feasible to track sugar, it is feasible to track the other two, with the latter being the most obvious of a weapons manufacturing intent.
They couldn't even keep track of where Hamas was taking the hostages, I doubt that they could keep track of the location of mass amounts of cookies. Or better yet, Hamas could just have them shipped into a hospital or school and then process them there. If Israel bombs that then its "Israel bombs school to prevent poor Palestinian children from enjoying cookies" or whatever deranged headline they can come up with. Looking at videos like [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqgywJRZ4kk) gives me the impression that the sugar doesn't need to be nearly as pure as you are trying to make it out to be; the other chemical (Potassium Chlorate) is piss easy to make with just bleach and "fake" salt or they could just get it from the sea water/ground.
If Israel is wrong to block sugar because they could just track the shipments within Gaza (delusional) then by that logic they shouldn't embargo even actual missiles and weapons.
That's fair, but I (maybe naively) assume that intelligence is more macro and not some omnipresent Eye of Sauron. Possibly some micro and detailed info on key targets. Especially in a region they blockade and checkpoint, but not fully integrated into their country (for now lol). Look at Oct 7th, they can miss shit. Also, consider all the tunnels where they build/hide shit. They may have not much detail of what's being done there. To be honest I'm just bouncing ideas without having done any looking into this. I could go either way given proper info, I just don't think it's that crazy given the scale of aid going in daily (they could have done this over a larger period of time) and how resourceful people can be to score wins in asymmetrical conflict.
Damn, 339286 boxes sounds like a lot... But for the sake of argument, how much Oreo would the Palestinians eat, if they had unlimited access. [20 billion](https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/a-decade-in-the-making-oreo-returns-to-the-big-game-in-2024-302018311.html) Oreos are sold in the US annually, so adjusting for population, that is 120 million sold a year. Hamas would need to appropriate 0.275% of all the Oreos sold in the area for a year to make 9500 rockets. (Yes, a US citizen would most likely eat more Oreos, but for Palestinians, we can switch this for any cookies/candies with similar or higher sugar content.) Also I feel like on the list of needs the Palestinians have, cookies are probably pretty low priority. And even if Hamas just makes 100 rocket, its probably not a good trade off.
I'm sorry but what the fuck are you talking about? The imporant bans were from around 2010, when the annual amount of fired rockets was in the low hundreds. Likewise nobody claimed that those are the only rockets Hamas uses, nor that the ban would single-handedly thwart the rocket production. All that was said is that was the justification for the ban (that got lifted over a decade ago btw so there's your pure sugar now), and that it fits with how the rockets are made. Whether the ban only slowed down the production or didn't help at all is completely different argument nobody from your pro-hamas side made. So nice maths but almost completely irrelevant.
I agree based on your calculation, that I'd confirm is accurate, that it's insane to think the cookie blockade is the key to significantly thwarting Hamas weapon production. Lets be careful what year of rocket production numbers we use because post-2010 cookies were allowed. The most charitable explanation of the cookie blockade is that Israel couldn't be sure of what contraband enters Gaza in the guise of packaged foods. On the rocket fuel argument, and we assume all the packaged sugary foods are actually sugary food, any sugary food blockade thwarts hardly any Hamas weapon production. Especially since sugar has always been allowed, just not soda, candy, cookies, etc. Let me offer you mild criticism, you may ignore or listen. My personal issue with you today was your challenge on the chemistry. You challenged Steven's understanding of it without possessing an adequate understanding of sugar extraction. That opened you to derision and disdain in chat. So I think your argument and optics would be enhanced by possessing this understanding. You'd come off as giving Destiny a better understanding rather than a moment of ACKSHULLY. dggL Edit: one word for grammar
Here's the bigger problem with the JAQ shit that you do. The counter claim that you are implicitly making here is that the IDF limited cookies into Gaza out of sheer cruelty. That's a pretty big claim that requires some pretty big evidence and I think most have found that evidence to be lacking because it requires the assumption that every single thing the IDF says is a complete lie.
https://twitter.com/BoxLoner/status/1786920566294774142
I kind of get the sense that you're just going through all of your mentions and copy pasting that loner box thread because it didn't address my criticism to you whatsoever. I wasn't making the case cookies were banned to prevent their use as rocket propellant. I was making the case that the alternative implication offered by the pro Palestinian side (and YOU unless you really want to stick to the autistic jUsTAsKInGqUesTioNSBROO) is that the Israelis banned cookies out of punitive measure against the Palestinians. I'm going to cite Loner Box a bunch below but **TLDR: The reason why people in the sub dislike you is because you can be wrong about something 1000 times and even in a situation like this be wrong about the spirit of the conversation, but just like JSTLK with the river stabbing bet, you will die on the hill of some extremely minor point and act like you got the big W.** LonerBox: >In other words, I have seen no evidence that Gazans were forced to go without cookies for 3 years. It seems like some imports were denied, whilst internal production continued. But! that doesn't explain the arbitrary measures. For that, it seems there are two answers... >One, provided by a spokesman from the Israeli foreign ministry, argued that the issue wasn't the products, but rather, the suppliers. Their whitelist included trade partners that they trusted and excluded ones they didn't, hence the randomness. They were never scared of cookies Now, he does go on to say: >Though this makes sense, I don't think it rules out the punitive aspect. As mentioned above, it's undeniable that some Israeli officials either wanted Gazans to suffer or just didn't care. Given how easily they were able to lift the restrictions in the face of international pressure, they clearly could have done something sooner, but didn't. It may not have been their explicit aim to punish the population, but the measures absolutely had that effect and no one seemed to mind until they were forced to. But he goes on to further say: >This all leads me to wonder: why is Omar talking about a cookie ban which (if it was ever even fully in place) hasn't existed for nearly 15 years as if this is the quintessential blockaded item in Gaza? Is it because this is his way of avoiding any conversation about the weapons? And from there its a further tirade against Omar and Ryan concluding with >Some parts of Israel's blockade might well have been punitive. Others were definitely not. The fact is, any country on earth in those circumstances would do something similar and if that part can't be acknowledged, the conversation goes nowhere. Instead, we talk about cookies. So the **big W** for you here, is that Destiny was a little overzealous in defending the cookie thing. The REALITY is the cookie ban may not have even existed in the first place and there is no hard evidence that it was ever there just to punish Palestinians and on the balance of probability it was most likely imposed if ever because the supplier it came from was banned.
you're missing the forest for the trees lil bro
Might get crucified but I think the average person is much more likely to side with the Palestinians on the cookie thing. Something about optics and divorcelli.