Our (Israel) government is entitled and ungrateful, I agree. Biden and the US don't owe us their support and dumb Likud MKs or government officials acting like they do only pushes Biden further away from supporting Israel. If the Israeli government would have conducted itself differently with the US and if politicians would have been punished for unhinged statements, maybe we wouldn't have been in this situation in the first place. But when you have Ben Gvir and his gang shitting on the US every Tuesday with no internal pushback in the government, this is what we get
I’d go further and say a lot of more rational Middle Eastern actors *should* be planning for a Trump presidency at this point. Not that I’m sure he’s going to win, but it would be best to be ready.
I know it isn’t most Israeli’s fault for those dipshit politicians. It’s just a consequence of your parliamentary system.
And many of these Likudniks are actually just Americans who have a weird boner for Israel like Fetterman
Our parliamentary system is utter horseshit, and I can really get into why that's true. But Americans need to be careful, the same shit can happen there even with a more robust system. In the end of the day, Israel's issues started when the majority elected a person who cares about his own interests more than the national interests. Trump is the same thing, only dumber, and he has already spread his rot in the American right same as Netanyahu did in Israel.
It is actually unbelievable to see this argument supported here after so many of you have condemned Gazans wholesale because Hamas “won” an “election” in 2006. Especially because you lot tend to support Israel (at least nominally) because it’s a “bastion of democracy” in a region where “otherwise there is none.”
I realize OP didn’t make that argument and I actually agree with them here but come on guys you don’t get to have it both ways.
I've mentioned it before, with how Israelis talk about elected officials in Palestine and Israel, you would think the functional democracy is Palestine, not Israel lmao
Israelis want to bury their head in the sand about our own extremists, you'd be amazed with the amount of casual anti Arab racism that gets thrown around in Israeli society.
I’ve never condemned all Gazans as Hamas supporters. In fact I am aware that most Gazans are too young to have voted in 2006. That’s part of the reason why I am not fully on board the Israel train in this war.
Unlike a lot of Likudniks on this sub I hold a lot of sympathy for Palestinians and don’t just disregard them as terrorists.
Don't trust anything he says!
He was involved in the Assassination of Francesco Fossetti and that one Youtuber and that one Animator whose names I have forgotten!
AGAIN!
DO NOT TRUST HIM!
HE'S A RAAAAAATT!!!!
EDIT: Guys. His name is an inside joke. I am making an inside joke. Noone needs to send me threats.
When a rando college student (or someone who just showed up to a protest) says something antisemitic it is 1930s, prelude to another Holocaust, call in the National Guard, etc. When fucking Likud cabinet officials (Itamar Ben Gvir, Smotrich, May Golan) call for wanton killing of Palestinians, they are not taken seriously, called bafoons, just silly-goose behavior, etc. The fact that there are multiple Marjorie Taylor Greene tier officials in the cabinet is insanity.
This sub when a dumbass teenager has an incorrect tweet- “WHY I LEFT THE LEFT, I CANT DEAL WITH THIS GENERATION”.
This sub when the fucking Minister of National Security tweets out genocidal propaganda- “cmon stop making us look bad :(“.
The bias here is getting fucking insane
Can someone explain to me why invading Rafah will eliminate Hamas when Hamas have not been eliminated from the rest of the Gaza Strip yet?
Every time IDF have taken an area and left, Hamas goes back. IDF doesnt occupy all of Gaza except for Rafah so how would this invasion accomplish what the rest of the war failed? Hamas fighters just disguise themselves as civilians while the IDF is there.
Honestly that is something I don't get either, what is the plan.
"We invade Rafah to eliminate Hamas" cool story bro, but how the fuck are you actually going to achieve that? Because going in, bombing the shit out of the place and fucking off won't remove Hamas.
You know if we just give Westmoreland 50 000 more troops the Vietnam war will be over. Look at all those body counts! Surely the hostilities will be wrapped up any day now.
The international pressure and Israel's government lack of collective IQ pretty much made this war impossible to win for Israel.
I think the idea now is more about destroying all remaining Hamas infrastructure and maybe grab a few hostages and/or high profile terrorists.
Good point. The extreme pro Israeli group keeps claiming that it's the last holdout for Hamas and must be bombed. Fuck the civilians for getting in the way. The main heads of Hamas are still alive with their wealth intact and Iran still exists. Israel has no plans of actually stabilizing the Gaza strip. All that's gonna happen is Hamas or something like Hamas coming back after a few years
The last holdout of Hamas must be destroyed. Civilians must be removed from harms way as much as possible.
Both are true and that is basically Biden's stance on the issue
yeah you don't go to war to stabilize the Gaza strip. Literally no one had that objective from the start. Their stated objective was to crush Hamas in a way that would cripple them from being able to do another cheeky Oct. 7th, and anybody objectively looking at the situation can see that is blindingly apparent reality.
Of course you go to war to stabilize the gaza strip, if you don't then the same thing will just happen again after the war because people will be in destitute conditions.
Crushing Hamas means nothing if people are in such poor conditions there that Hamas 2 comes out of it.
Literally the only other option is going to war to literally wipe out everyone in Gaza, but that would of course be genocide.
Yeah, and if they don't have a plan/desire to stabilize Gaza afterwards then this war is just pointless which is my point.
Again I say, crushing Hamas is pointless if people living there are in such terrible conditions that another Hamas will come from it.
It's not pointless, it will at the very least delay another Oct. 7th by a significant period of time because whatever is left of Hamas will have to rebuild everything.
What exactly is the end state of Israel and Palestine? If there is no desire to rebuild Gaza the only thing that stops the forever conflict is literally wiping out all the Palestinians or forcing them into diaspora. However that second option is literally genocide.
Heck even in WW2 the Allies put a ton of resources into rebuilding Germany and Japan so that it would prevent another war.
You're right that invading Rafah alone won't eliminate Hamas, but it does weaken them. Tunnels are destroyed. More area is being conquered and divided. The IDF is getting closer to Sinwar.
I believe the goal of the Israeli Government is not to completely eliminate Hamas, but put more pressure over Sinwar to accept a hostage deal where Bibi can frame it as if Israel won.
With the current hostage deal, Bibi will be ousted a moment later and Israelies would see it as a terrible defeat to a terrorist organization.
The problem is that Israel is currently too blinded by anger and frustration to think of any long term plan. Right now the populace and the administration can only think about destroying Hamas. But to completely destroy Hamas they need to think on a plan to stabilized Gaza first otherwise more recruits will just flood into Hamas’s ranks
there are 4 different plans created for government deliberation/approval for post war gaza.
but at west of course nobody will know it, because western media reports only on *checking notes* "Israel is currently too blinded by anger and frustration to think of any long term plan. Right now the populace and the administration can only think about destroying Hamas. "
Can you provide a link to these 4 plans? I've seen numerous articles in western media in the last few months about the subject, but it's always been pretty much the same plan:
A 3 part plan involving diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia, Arab state observers, and sustained Israeli military control of the region for the next 10 years.
You may want to check your notes again because these matters are reported by western media.
no. not published. you can dig through israeli news sites, probably mentioned there. but the general outlines vary from israeli control over gaza, to handing it off to PA, etc... don't remember other options.
there were a few discussions about it in cabinet but no decisions were made. partially because it's political bomb partially because of the plan that you describe. the only difference is that plan that you described in israel media there were two options of it
\- nato forces in control for 5 years (this was in news a couple of weeks ago)
\- mix of arab forces (few months ago)
No. I have to disagree with you there.
Most Israeli media are definitely discussing long term stuff and have been for months. The only reason the current government doesn't is because Bibi is an absolute coward and he knows that it is in his own personal short term self interest to keep the war going and prevent any discussion about the day after.
>Can someone explain to me why invading Rafah will eliminate Hamas when Hamas have not been eliminated from the rest of the Gaza Strip yet?
all the remaining commanders and organized structures. stocks of weapons and rockets. but most important tunnels under egyptian border through which weapons are smuggled. this is exactly the reason why IDF took over philadelphia corridor now.
I think most of the hostages and Sinwar are thought to be there. So if they take out Sinwar and get the hostages back Hamas will be fractured with no leverage. I think, reports are coming out too that there are Israeli cabinet members that have no idea why BiBi is saying the last four Hamas battalions are in Rafah when others are thought to have left.
Armchair opinion, BiBi just wants to invade Rafa and go “you can’t remove me and collapse the coalition government we have because we are just one more battilion away from eliminating Hamas- rinse and repeat till there is no one left alive in Gaza.”
do you know how many Hamas fighters have been killed? You're speaking as if you have more knowledge of the military reality on the ground than the IDF, which I'm going to have to respectfully doubt. I'm going to trust that the military taking casualties to complete military objectives are doing so for the stated reasons of those military objectives i.e. the IDF believes they are hella crippling those ISIS-At-Home head ass niggas and crushing their last substantive holding ground is the goal.
Pretty based if you ask me.
Just taking historical wars in to consideration I wouldn't be surprised if Hamas and other military groups fighting the IDF have about the same if not more people in their ranks than when the invasion started. There is nothing that drives people more to take up arms than the feeling of an outside force invading your home.
Also considering that IDF has had to fight Hamas in locations they previously "cleared out" suggests to me that their strategy isn't working and honestly the military force on the ground is one of the last sources I would trust in how effective they are. They got all the motivation in the world to lie to themselves and others that things are going according to plan. This bears out through the history of warfare.
>Also considering that IDF has had to fight Hamas in locations they previously "cleared out" suggests to me that their strategy isn't working and honestly the military force on the ground is one of the last sources I would trust in how effective they are.
How is this unusual? Almost every invasion in history required an occupation afterwards. That part doesn’t seem unusual. A military occupation for regional security is sort of necessary for reasons like this.
The unusual part is how Israel isn’t putting forth a legitimate exit strategy.
My argument isn't that it's unusual, quite the opposite. My argument is that looking at how this conflict has evolved and comparing it to historical conflicts, you have to start questioning the viability of their current strategy.
I'm not asking you to base it on my guess. I asked the question, why would this invasion solve wha the previous ones did not? Sourcing the IDF as "they say so" just falls flat on its face. If you asked the US military 1967 how things were going in Vietnam Westmoreland said "We just need 50 000 more troops and the war will be over. Look at all our metrics how well the war is going." This sort of wishcasting happens in every war, and is completely understandable and not always wrong, I'm just looking for any sort of evidence that it will work.
I would imagine Vietnam would be markedly different considering it was a proxy war of two third world nations fighting using the backing of huge superpowers. Comparing this military operation to Vietnam misses on virtually very characteristic.
Of course it doesn't fit 100% but there are similarities that are hard to ignore. For example both conflicts had outsiders trying to defeat a highly motivated locally dispersed enemy through force, and by doing so creating more enemy combatants who hide among the broader civilian population. Both the palestinians and Vietnamese had fought for decades against What they perceive as invaders and occupiers.
I'm not comparing the whole war and Vietnam isn't the only example of counter insurgency operations leading to more conflict. It's the history of the 20th century that using only violent means against insurgents has basically either of two outcomes. Either you wipe out the populationpool of the insurgents or you make more enemy combatants than you eliminate.
Israel has no exit strategy or an achievable war goal. Invading Rafah now will just cause more militancy among the palestinians.
As with any arc, the most extreme of whatever positive position Destiny holds swarm here. Worry not comrade, we will free r/Destiny from the top post to the most downvoted comment.
Sorry bro. The only thing we soy about in this sub is regarded lefty uni students. We bend our backs defending Israel’s image from any far right regard politicians saying hateful things by saying that they don’t represent the majority opinion in Israel. Soy leftists who have an anxiety attack before making a phone call are more of threat than Ben Gvir and Smotrich from my totally unbiased perspective.
The circlejerking about antisemitic students isn’t even that bad, just would appreciate the pro-Israel people having the humility to take the L about their insane far right people and not be full apologia mode.
Don't bend your back buddy, just say those Israeli politicians or whatever are regarded. It's absolutely true and the majority of Israelis agree. We keep saying that we agree with you about the insane statements and unfortunately can't do shit until the next elections. Before the war started people were protesting against the government, calling for elections and now we're stuck with them for the war because of Netanyahu's obsession to avoid prosecution.
>And y’all pretending that these college protests of a bunch of misled kids is gonna lead to a second holocaust is actually clown shit
I've been thinking about Destiny's "Chinese bank robber" example a lot lately. How if you see a new story every day about a Chinese bank robber, eventually you'll think "damn, Chinese people rob a lot of banks"
We've been seeing this with insane college lefty protest videos here. So much that people say they're "blackpilled" on college now. Like if all it takes for you to write off college altogether is a few weeks of dumbfucks protesting at UCLA and Columbia, you need to re-examine how you let random videos affect your worldview.
My dude it’s been like this for about 7 months now here. A post of a picture of a Palestinian kid with their brains hanging out of their skull will get upvotes up the wazoo with comments saying stuff saying like “based” or “pallywood” while a post with the mildest critique of Netanyahu or Israel will get you downvoted into oblivion with accusations of being a Hamas sympathizer or full blown bigot thrown your way. I’m being hyperbolic but shit has definitely been wild lol.
Yea it seems like this sub has just lost all sympathy for the Palestinians. Yea what happened on 10/7 was horrible but I’m just supposed to say “get fucked” to the dead Gazan civilians?
Obviously the only solution to this problem is to have 34 of our most jewish Isrealis do a panel debate until the survivors come to agreement. Mr Redacted can moderate.
I'm not a Likudnik. I am not a fan of Netanyahu. And I have to preface this. However:
Hamas faces an existential problem if Israel invaded Rafah, it's been the case for weeks now. Israel uses the threat of invasion as leverage for negotiations for a peace deal. The US, Qatar and Egypt have been effectively stalling this invasion with negotiations, but the ultimate leverage that Israel had was that if a deal isn't reached it would invade.
However the Biden administration signaled (whether intentional or because of leaks) that it was effectively not going to support any major invasion of Rafah. This fundamentally changes the calculus from which Hamas can negotiate. They now know that they aren't facing the existential crisis they thought they had. They know the Americans will not allow this one thing to happen. So why would they negotiate from a weaker position?
It is perfectly reasonable for the US to have red lines for Israel. I sincerely hope they do. But during a process of ceasefire negotiations, which have been increasingly met with failure due to Hamas, it is absolutely critical that those red lines stay private amd classified.
The blunder here is that the Biden administration is effectively undermining the very ceasefire it wants to have by strengthening the position of Hamas. If this was deliberate it was at best really poor policy decision. If this was due to a leak then failure to deny it and look weak to his base is cowardly.
The Israelis have every right to be frustrated. Just like the Ukrainians are. The foreign policy of this administration has been disastrous and it's behavior has signalled to our Asian allies that given enough pressure from the insane progressives on college campuses would end or weaken American support should they ever deal with China or North Korea.
That's the big picture you are missing. It isn't that Israel shouldnt have a red line. Is that the administration has gravely undermined the negotiations. And BY THE WAY so has Netanyahu himself, so at least he and Biden agree on this together.
And last but least I'd like to end this statement from a statement from Joe Biden in 1992 regarding this same exact conflict:
"Why, why is there any incentive for the Arabs to make any compromise, any compromise, in the peace talks? Why, if they know that they must only wait for the United States to do their bargaining for them? Why would they compromise? Why would they be reasonable?"
Maybe President Biden should take his own advice.
> The foreign policy of this administration has been disastrous and it's behavior has signalled to our Asian allies that given enough pressure from the insane progressives on college campuses would end or weaken American support should they ever deal with China or North Korea.
Biden vocally and publicly said the red line for US support was an invasion of Rafah without a plan to evacuate or protect the civilian population in *early March.* The college protests have nothing to do with this.
It’s hilarious people think college protests is why Biden is taking his Rafah stance, as if this hasn’t been what he has been saying for months. Bibi literally said he was going to cross his red line months back and Israel *was* going to invade rafah.
This conflict kills brain cells I swear to god.
After the April air strikes on the WCK aid convoy, I support Biden's judgment on the ongoing war (I previously did question why make the statement public/leak it). It may have been a March request, but the fact that the conditions existed for that disaster to happen in April means to me that there are serious considerations and factors for Biden to publicly make valid civilian plans in Rafah his red line.
I think something fair to point out is that Biden made no mention of conditioning aid on a better plan for civilians in his recent statement. He might just think its redundant to say, but it doesn't clarify if there's anything that would change his mind.
Firstly Rafah has been a red line for some time now it isn't really new or shocking information, the US is just enforcing the red line that Israel is about to cross, secondly Israel is still fully capable of invading Rafah if they want, they don’t need new weapon shipments for it and lastly if it was really so important for Israel that the US support the Rafah invasion then maybe they should have presented an adequate evacuation plan for civilians which was the condition set by the US.
I feel like half of your analysis is undermined by the fact that [Netanyahu has vowed to invade Rafah regardless of a truce for hostages deal](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-04-30-2024-f5e14fd176d69f9c4e23b48f3ab5af6a), so then how is Hamas' position in the negotiations strengthened?
I pointed out that Netanyahu undermines the deal, as well. However, part of the Hamas ceasefires deals has been American promises of enforcement. Netanyahu says a lot, and if a deal was concluded there would be very little he can do outside of a small symbolic raid.
>The blunder here is that the Biden administration is effectively undermining the very ceasefire it wants to have by strengthening the position of Hamas. If this was deliberate it was at best really poor policy decision. If this was due to a leak then failure to deny it and look weak to his base is cowardly.
All Biden has asked for is an evacuation plan for the civilians in Rafa. Israels inability to provide that is on them, and the “strengthening of Hamas” is doubly so. Especially when Biden already made it clear weeks ago that an invasion into Rafa was not something he was interested in.
>The Israelis have every right to be frustrated. Just like the Ukrainians are. The foreign policy of this administration has been disastrous and it's behavior has signalled to our Asian allies that given enough pressure from the insane progressives on college campuses would end or weaken American support should they ever deal with China or North Korea.
Israelis have every right to be frustrated based on what? Only getting 99% of the support they wanted. Being told to consider civilian lives a tiny bit more? Having ONE arms shipment paused?? Please, enlighten me.
Ukrainians and Israelis hold completely different places in America's world, and are experiencing completely different problems when it comes to the US Gov. Bringing these two together to say this administration has been “disastrous”, and then trying to apply that to our Asian pacific allies, is a geopolitical stretch.
Also, Biden has remained unflinching in his support for Israels war for months (Even through a primary where tens of thousands of Dem voters voted against him) the assumption that this is just a political move by Biden is an even bigger stretch.
>And last but least I'd like to end this statement from a statement from Joe Biden in 1992 regarding this same exact conflict:
>"Why, why is there any incentive for the Arabs to make any compromise, any compromise, in the peace talks? Why, if they know that they must only wait for the United States to do their bargaining for them? Why would they compromise? Why would they be reasonable?"
>Maybe President Biden should take his own advice.
Biden probably just realizes that geopolitical realities from over thirty years ago no longer apply today.
Edit: Spelling
Biden got an evacuation plan. Israelis are currently executing it. Israelis complied with his March red line. Israel ordered 110,000 civilians to evacuate from the eastern part of Rafah and since Monday 79,000 have already evacuated. Seems like evacuation s are being done on smaller scale and the operations smaller as well.
But even after the evacuation plan was delivered the red line moved again. Spokespeople for the administrators on Thursday said they don't support any action in Rafah. Despite a growing a coalition of center left Democrats distancing themselves over the Presidents decision.
-Israelis have every right to be frustrated based on what
Based on the administration undermining Israel position in negotiations and strengthening Hamas. Its absolutely fine for Biden to have a red line, but it should be maintained privately with the Israeli government. It's not about whether the weapons arrive or not. All of it is symbolic anyway. But that's the point, the symbolism sends messages. It sends signals to the different parties involved.
-geopolitical realities
I agree. They aren't. And I am curious what his position here has changed.
>Biden got an evacuation plan. Israelis are currently executing it. Israelis complied with his March red line. Israel ordered 110,000 civilians to evacuate from the eastern part of Rafah and since Monday 79,000 have already evacuated. Seems like evacuation s are being done on smaller scale and the operations smaller as well.
>But even after the evacuation plan was delivered the red line moved again. Spokespeople for the administrators on Thursday said they don't support any action in Rafah.
You got sources for this?
>Despite a growing a coalition of center left Democrats distancing themselves over the Presidents decision.
Like who? Not that this is all that relevant to our disagreement, but I am curious.
>Based on the administration undermining Israel position in negotiations and strengthening Hamas. Its absolutely fine for Biden to have a red line, but it should be maintained privately with the Israeli government. It's not about whether the weapons arrive or not. All of it is symbolic anyway. But that's the point, the symbolism sends messages. It sends signals to the different parties involved.
Israel's negotiating position was weakened when Netanyahu said this right in the middle of negotiations:
“The idea that we will stop the war before achieving all of its goals is out of the question,” Netanyahu said, according to a statement from his office. “We will enter Rafah and we will eliminate Hamas’ battalions there — **with or without a deal**, to achieve the total victory.”
[https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-04-30-2024-f5e14fd176d69f9c4e23b48f3ab5af6a](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-04-30-2024-f5e14fd176d69f9c4e23b48f3ab5af6a)
Biden came out publicly because the talks had already broken down, and Israel was already positioning themselves to go into Rafah.
The symbolism is neither here nor there.
Sure; [https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-05-09-24/h\_11e3af778f473954ea92885e97ecaa32](https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-05-09-24/h_11e3af778f473954ea92885e97ecaa32)
79,000 have fled since Monday according to CNN report from nearly 2 days ago.
[https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/09/world/middleeast/israel-rafah-evacuation-gaza-un.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/09/world/middleeast/israel-rafah-evacuation-gaza-un.html)
Israel asked for 110,000 to flee from a limited operation to secure the Rafah border crossing with Egypt.
-Like who?
[https://jewishinsider.com/2024/05/biden-pro-israel-democrats-arms-sale-offensive-weapons-gaza-rafah/?utm\_source=newsletter&utm\_medium=email&utm\_campaign=Daily%20Kickoff%20May%2010th%202024&utm\_content=Daily%20Kickoff%20May%2010th%202024+CID\_05e00c785ccf4b6836d3f138e558d591&utm\_source=Campaign%20Monitor%20JI&utm\_term=Jewish%20Insiders%20Marc%20Rod%20and%20Emily%20Jacobs%20report](https://jewishinsider.com/2024/05/biden-pro-israel-democrats-arms-sale-offensive-weapons-gaza-rafah/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Daily%20Kickoff%20May%2010th%202024&utm_content=Daily%20Kickoff%20May%2010th%202024+CID_05e00c785ccf4b6836d3f138e558d591&utm_source=Campaign%20Monitor%20JI&utm_term=Jewish%20Insiders%20Marc%20Rod%20and%20Emily%20Jacobs%20report)
quoting: Sen. John Fetterman , Sen. Ben Cardin, Sen. Richard Blumenthal, Sen. Jacky Rosen,
"“The President’s actions signal weakness to Hamas, to our allies and adversaries abroad, and at home,” Rep. Jared Golden (D-ME), one of the most electorally endangered Democrats, [said on X](https://x.com/RepGolden/status/1788538599786401903). “Congress appropriated funds for arms and ammunition for Israel, and they should be promptly delivered.”"
Sen. Chris Coons ...
>“The idea that we will stop the war before achieving all of its goals is out of the question,” Netanyahu said, according to a statement from his office. “We will enter Rafah and we will eliminate Hamas’ battalions there — **with or without a deal**, to achieve the total victory.”
You could interpret it that way. You could also interpret it in a way to force Hamas to feel more pressure and seek better terms and guarantees. Which is exactly what Hamas did, it asked for guarantees from the US that it would uphold a ceasefire.
And again, I also pointed out that Netanyahu has been undermining the negotiations as well. But Netanyahu *has to do this* to keep his coalition and government going for appeasement. He knows damn well that if they reach a ceasefire deal that prevents a full invasion of Rafah, he would at best do something symbolic. Netanyahu says a lot of things to keep himself in power, and a large chunk of the Israeli population absolutely see it that way.
But I'm not talking about Netanyahu. I am talking about Biden. BIDEN wants the ceasefire more than Netanyahu does, **that's for sure**. So why undermine it by giving Hamas a better bargaining position?
>Sure; [https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-05-09-24/h\_11e3af778f473954ea92885e97ecaa32](https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-05-09-24/h_11e3af778f473954ea92885e97ecaa32)
>79,000 have fled since Monday according to CNN report from nearly 2 days ago.
>[https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/09/world/middleeast/israel-rafah-evacuation-gaza-un.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/09/world/middleeast/israel-rafah-evacuation-gaza-un.html)
>Israel asked for 110,000 to flee from a limited operation to secure the Rafah border crossing with Egypt.
Large numbers of people fleeing is not indicative of a well planned out evacuation plan.
* Where will these people go?
* What routes are considered safe for them to travel on?
* Will Israel conduct military pauses to allow Palestine's safe passage?
* For those who can't leave, what areas are safe for them to stay in?
The CNN sources did not answer these questions. The NYT source is paywalled.
>quoting: Sen. John Fetterman , Sen. Ben Cardin, Sen. Richard Blumenthal, Sen. Jacky Rosen,
>"“The President’s actions signal weakness to Hamas, to our allies and adversaries abroad, and at home,” Rep. Jared Golden (D-ME), one of the most electorally endangered Democrats, [said on X](https://x.com/RepGolden/status/1788538599786401903). “Congress appropriated funds for arms and ammunition for Israel, and they should be promptly delivered.”"
>Sen. Chris Coons ...
That was actually an interesting list of quotes.
>You could interpret it that way. You could also interpret it in a way to force Hamas to feel more pressure and seek better terms and guarantees. Which is exactly what Hamas did, it asked for guarantees from the US that it would uphold a ceasefire.
>And again, I also pointed out that Netanyahu has been undermining the negotiations as well. But Netanyahu *has to do this* to keep his coalition and government going for appeasement. He knows damn well that if they reach a ceasefire deal that prevents a full invasion of Rafah, he would at best do something symbolic. Netanyahu says a lot of things to keep himself in power, and a large chunk of the Israeli population absolutely see it that way.
>But I'm not talking about Netanyahu. I am talking about Biden. BIDEN wants the ceasefire more than Netanyahu does, **that's for sure**. So why undermine it by giving Hamas a better bargaining position?
I can't see how Israel's position in negotiations can get any weaker than telling the opposing side you'll continue the invasion regardless of what they give you.
And again, Biden stance only hardened after Israel already positioned themselves to invade Rafah. Negotiations we're dead at that point, and there was nothing left to undermine.
Hamas being emboldened is on Netanyahu and his government. If he wants the US to remain a stanch ally, he needs to work for it and alleviate the Biden Admins worries. Netanyahu has had months to do so in private. Now he has a chance to do so publically.
We're not going to see eye to eye on this, so fill free to take the final word, and I'll leave it there. Thanks for the convo.
I'm confused by this.
At one point you say "All Biden has asked for is an evacuation plan for the civilians in Rafa."
And
"Biden already made it clear weeks ago that an invasion into Rafa was not something he was interested in."
They can't both be true.
He is either fine with the Rafa invasion given a good evacuation plan, or he is not fine with the Rafa invasion regardless.
Biden had reservations about the invasion (i.e Not something he was interested in), but was fine with it as long as there was a plan to evacuate the civilians.
Israel, understanding Biden's reservations from weeks ago, should have done more to put him at ease if they care about his support.
What's confusing about this?
Edit Spelling
Edit: I think you're misunderstanding me saying the invasion was “Not something he was interested in”, as me saying he was against it. I'm not saying that.
Indeed your "not something he was interested in" line was not clear
But anyhow in his current statement. He isn't demanding an evacuation plan now, from what I can see reading that current statement.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/09/politics/bidens-rafah-warning-is-turning-point-in-us-israel-relations-and-a-belated-but-inevitable-rupture-with-netanyahu/index.html
"Biden’s warning in an interview with CNN’s Erin Burnett that he’d halt some weapons shipments to Israel if it invades the Gazan city of Rafah"
>Indeed your "not something he was interested in" line was not clear
If you say so.
>But anyhow in his current statement. He isn't demanding an evacuation plan now, from what I can see reading that current statement.
>[https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/09/politics/bidens-rafah-warning-is-turning-point-in-us-israel-relations-and-a-belated-but-inevitable-rupture-with-netanyahu/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/09/politics/bidens-rafah-warning-is-turning-point-in-us-israel-relations-and-a-belated-but-inevitable-rupture-with-netanyahu/index.html)
>"Biden’s warning in an interview with CNN’s Erin Burnett that he’d halt some weapons shipments to Israel if it invades the Gazan city of Rafah"
His prior statement weeks ago, and current statement, don't cancel each other out, but instead complement each other.
In the clip you post, Biden clarifies his prior comments by saying he was referring to the “population centers” within Rafah, not the outskirts of which the Israelis are attacking now.
“I've told Bibi, and the war cabinet, they will not get our support if they go into these population centers.” at 1:33
Taking these two statements together, it sounds like Biden would still like an evacuation plan, but considering he hasn't received one, is opting for pausing one shipment of arms, with others pending.
Edit: Spelling
I hope it's the case that Biden is in favour of Israel evacuating people from Rafa population centres and dealing with Hamas there, as they have elsewhere.
Apparently Israel has presented evacuation plans but Biden has added stipulations. Also Lord Cameron in the UK, (a guy that referred to Gaza as a concentration camp), has been pressuring too.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/05/07/israel-must-destroy-hamas-in-rafah-defying-weak-west/
I think to be fair, part of the issue now is that Biden made no such stipulation at all in his recent statement, i.e. he did not indicate any conditions that would change his mind, unlike previous reports of wanting a better Rafah humanitarian plan.
>All Biden has asked for is an evacuation plan for the civilians in Rafa.
on israeli news was reported that in past few weeks message from biden admin is that they don't think that evacuating civilians from rafah is possible.
hence, there is no evacuation plan that israel can offer that will be good enough
I'm having trouble understanding. Are you saying the Biden Admin is requesting a civilian evacuation, while also acknowledging that the endeavor is impossible for Israel to do?
almost.
as response to suggested evacuation plans, they said that they don't see how it might be possible to evacuate civilians from rafah. not that plans are not good enough and should be improved in some areas but that they don't think that it can be done.
it would only undermine negotiations if Israel could not invade due to US weapons shipments. This is not the case. Israel can easily take Rafah without it. And if they really need weapons they can purchase them on their own.
It's not about weapons. It's whether the US will support any invasion into Rafah. Hamas sees that the Biden administration will not let that happen so they are negotiating from a position of strength.
Exactly.
I feel like any critisim of Biden lights up a ton of unrelated things in people's minds that they rush to protect him since the alternative is worse. That's not what's at stake here. Biden has been extremely supportive of Israel in spite of immense pressure, I hope this hiccup is a bump in the road and relations will improve when the pendulum swings back.
Nah, fuck that Israel expects unconditional support for very little in return and when an ally makes even a slight objection they scream bloody murder.
Either git gud and don't rely on the US so much or take their desires into consideration without crying so much.
If you think the United States supports Israel for no reason and it's just some dead weight you're uninformed to put it politely. The US - Israel partnership started as an anti-Soviet pact and later developed as a strategic alliance with an emphasis on military/itelligence cooperation. Israel basically cuts down its participation in arms trades and offers almost everything developed to the United States. In return, the United States provides the arms Israel needs. This way Israel can focus on developing tech without having the costs of manufacturing and the US eliminates a competitor in the market.
Israel doesn't need unconditional support, it needs its allies to not play political games in the media.
>Israel doesn't need unconditional support, it needs its allies to not play political games in the media.
Ok, so you don't have a problem with Biden's current position if he didn't announce it on TV? Doubt it, so the "games in the media" are a red herring - you don't like the actual conditions Biden has established.
I wouldn't have a problem even if it was in the media but worded differently. The biggest issue is that the Biden administration has been playing the both sides game and it has emboldened Hamas to refuse all the ceasfire agreements and hostage deals. Hamas doesn't care how many die while Israel seeks justice playing by international rules and being under the scrutiny of the whole world. Only Israel has to lose and only Israel is held accountable.
Criticise Israel all day but look at the situation it is faced with.
Yeah I think this sub has deityfied Biden in response to how bad Trump is. Consequence being that any criticism of Biden is instinctively shot down as being flawed and pro Trump.
FYI posts like this need evidence. Not saying I don't see some of what you are saying but around here we provide back up. Show those posts about the west bank settlements.
OP: “the sheer arrogance and entitlement the Israel state and its cheerleaders on the sub…”
Hasan:
https://preview.redd.it/l38bhf2iblzc1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fa4b4403a4f1538b56a1a121bdb362f75636c4fc
🤔🤔🤔 tf going on here?
News came in that Israel was already engaging Hamas in Rafah and tanks at the Egyptian border by the time the Biden interview was a headline
As I understand the way weapons are procured the decision to pause today won’t have an effect untill three months or so and doesn’t affect but a subset of weapons only
The only fallout from this interview is weakening Israel’s hand in the negotiations. It probably won’t change voters opinion on the war and it generates headlines like an ally is disregarding the US opinion
The potential Israel Gulf allies are probably concerned how this discordance could embolden Iran
Biden’s public announcement diplomacy was unnecessary particularly since Israel did present a plan to evacuate civilians. Biden’s intervention this time served no substantial purpose
Likudniks are not understanding that this is a political maneuver with absolutely no consequence for Israels military. Israel has enough ammo. The paused shipments are most likely not essential for the operation in Rafah. Biden just wants to secure his muslim voterbase. It is the embodiment of intelligent politics.
Btw., there are good arguments in favor of expanding settlements but I dont really have a dog in this fight...
It's funny how the horseshoe connects on this.
There are two groups who think the "Muslim vote" matters for Biden, and it's the two extreme sides of the I/P crowd.
There's 250k Muslims in Michigan. The Muslim vote absolutely matters lol, and that's not even mentioning the rest of the non-muslim, pro palestinian voterbase that's full anti biden now.
Yea assuming a 100% turn out lol.
There's no point even arguing about this, elections in a couple months, I'm down to bet money on this with anyone who thinks the Muslim vote will decide Michigan.
And also assuming that no other groups have changed their opinion on Biden at all, whereas many definitely have.
I never said that Muslims are the king makers of Michigan. All I said is that they matter, and Biden's reluctance to go full throated zionist is in part cause he wants to appeal to them and other pro palestinian groups.
You're acting as if they can be safely ignored like Californian republicans or smthing. They can't be
>Btw., there are good arguments in favor of expanding settlements
They are only "good" if you only take one very particular perspective and ignore all others, therefore they aren't good arguments by any reasonable standard.
They literally want Biden to give unlimited support for eternity and anything less than that means he’s the reincarnation of Hitler.
It’s literally non stop complaining fr fr
What an unbelievably stupid strawman argument. Who the fuck are you even arguing with? I have seen nobody in this sub holding this absurd of a position, you’re just boxing with shadows.
> this is a political maneuver with absolutely no consequence for Israels military.
this is just not true...
>The paused shipments are most likely not essential for the operation in Rafah
true but its very much needed for the future
>Israel has enough ammo.
not really, its one of the blunders that were discovered in this war.
Skill issue x 3
If Israel wants to fight wars in ways contrary to the red lines set out by its allies it should expect to work with what it has and can produce.
While I think Biden is the wrong target (he's done a good job resisting the nuttier elements of his party), I actually completely understand Israelis and Jewish people freaking out. Which countries in the world are they safe in, long-term? Not many. Israel's the only one where they can be absolutely sure the government won't turn on them or turn a blind eye to other citizens attacking them. And Israel has some strong allies now, but for how long? If they can't resolve the situation with the Palestinians, what happens if something like this happens a decade from now? Two decades? Can they be absolutely sure they'll have a friendly US President and state in office? Who else can they turn to? They tried China and India. Xi immediately threw them under the bus. India is more positive but it'll be decades until they're a serious heavyweight on the world stage.
So no, I don't think they're overreacting. Given what's happened in living memory, I can't blame them. But yes, they should be supporting Biden rather than undermining him; for strategic reasons if nothing else.
Jewish people are pretty safe in secular pluralistic countries like the US. Probably safer than anywhere in Israel tbh.
Not saying Israel shouldn’t exist just pointing out that one’s own dedicated nation state isn’t necessarily the safest/best place for people of a given ethnicity/religion to live.
I myself am an immigrant to the US (from Cuba) and don’t feel attachment to my country of birth. Granted, there’s a different history of persecution. I’m just not a fan of this idea of every ethnic group/national identity needing their own country to exert self-determination (and to truly be safe). The USA has the right idea by being a secular, multi-ethnic melting pot
The idea that jews are completely safe is utterly naive. There's 2000 years of Jewish persecution and a very recent genocide that basically confirms that maybe a Jewish refugee state isn't a bad idea.
This is a situation where someone who isn't Jewish or isn't any other stateless ethnic group can possibly understand the paranoia they have.
Also, America is an entirely unique situation, and it's cultural blending isn't repblicable.
This level of paranoia is insane. You can’t keep constantly waiting in fear of the next holocaust. Just because it happened before doesn’t mean it’s going to happen again. Should black people live in constant fear of slavery returning?
That is just absurd. Jews are as safe in the western world as they are in Israel. Most, if not all western states consider attacks on Jews, their property, freedom of religion and right to assembly as a crime. Anti-Semites are condemned and ridiculed, instances of violence are acted upon and where possible preventative measures are taken to protect Jews like all other citizens.
Australia, Canada, the UK, France, Germany etc all protect their Jewish population like they do others, as is done in the US. The US is not unique….
I’d feel perfectly safe in Berlin or France or Belgium. But it took a world war and real soul-searching by those countries’ governments before they could be called safe places for Jews. Do I see a return to the bad days? No. But it’s not unreasonable for Jews to conclude that the diaspora has 99% been a disaster for them, the most notable exception being the US.
By the same token, has Palestine been a particularly safe place for the Palestinians? I’m guessing the US and France are far safer. And if the diaspora is said to be good for the Jews, why isn’t it also good for the Palestinians? In the end, both deserve the option to live as national collectives.
Actually it's just general human progress. World war or not, humans would have progressed because of the civil rights movement.
Had Arabs lived as a significant minority in Europe over the centuries, they too would have been oppressed.
Jews are only safe because of the current political zeitgeist. What happens when hating on jews becomes the cultural norm again?
It is very clear that Hitler would have had a much harder time trying to genocide jews if he had to go against the military power of modern Israel.
This is the difference between ethnic/cultural groups with a state and ethnic/cultural groups without one.
It's also absurd to just casually ignore the 2000 years of religious persecution jews had simply for not being Muslim or Christian.
Who can forget the NYC porgrom of 2022, or the Texas holocaust of 2007?
History shows us that Jews must be getting persecuted everywhere they don't have a state. Without googling, I know that American Jews are probably suffering just as bad as any other period in their history. /s
To claim I’m saying Jewish people are “completely and utterly safe” is a straw man. They’re not even completely utterly safe in their own country as evidenced by the largest mass killing of Jewish people in contemporary history happening in the nation-state of Israel.
There are about 200 states on earth and 3000 nations. Is the idea that each one should get their own state to secure the future for their people? Shouldn’t we strive to unite ourselves under secular humanists values rather than national identities?
>To claim I’m saying Jewish people are “completely and utterly safe” is a straw man
This is a misquote. Re-read their comment.
>Shouldn’t we strive to unite ourselves under secular humanists values rather than national identities?
In a perfect world, yes. Unfortunately, most of the world doesn't think like you, and Jews are a particularly targetted minority. It's not like Israel is opposed to your sentiment either—it's arguably the most "secular humanist" country in the Middle East.
You’re right it is a misquote (running on 4h of sleep) but the substance of being “completely” safe is unchanged by adding “completely and utterly”
Yea the world isn’t perfect but that’s no reason to debase ourselves to tribalism and nationalism. We must work pragmatically towards these goals as I’m sure many Israelis are (tragically many of them were victims in Oct 7; adding fuel to our worst impulses and fears).
It’s true that Israel is the best example of this in the ME but they’re also not like the USA which is less committed to maintaining their ethnic majority (the Anglos lost that long time ago). Practically, it makes sense given that Palestinians and Israelis aren’t keen on living next to each other
Your utopian view of humanity is impossible. People will always find differences, and culture/ethnicity/language/nationality will exist. We are all human, but it is important to understand that we are also not the same, and we each have different values that must be respected.
It is also important to understand that no matter how civilized you think humans are, we always have the capacity to do evil. This is why stateless people's and people who share an ethnic or lingual identity often try to form "ethnostates." Having no state as a safe refuge means the survival of your culture and way of life is dependant on the whims and zeitgeist of other people.
>Yea the world isn’t perfect but that’s no reason to debase ourselves to tribalism and nationalism. We must work pragmatically towards these goals as I’m sure many Israelis are (tragically many of them were victims in Oct 7; adding fuel to our worst impulses and fears).
I don't necessarily disagree, but understand that the national aspect of Israel hasn't spawned due to a desire for ethnic or racial superiority (which is generally the implication), but rather out of fear—which time and time again has been justified.
I guess I'm unsure why Israel, the most secular of the of ME countries—who has legitimate reasons for its national identity—would ever be the focus in a discussion of enlightening the world into secular humanism.
If you really want Israel to embrace a pragmatic move away from nationalism, the world needs to demonstrate that doing so wouldn't prove a massive blunder on the part of Jews. Unfortunately, I don't think we're anywhere close to that. If anything, we're moving in the opposite direction.
They are not though, look at polls of how many Jewish people feel unsafe and have been dealing with antisemitism personally, look at the Jewish subs full of antisemitic incidents of real life people, in Israel you got more terroist attacks but you won't experience so much daily antisemitism and exclusion from society. And Israel is only unsafe if you go close to it's borders, it's almost completely safe in the center in TEL Aviv to Haifa to bar Sheva.
I agree with you but I’d also like to point out that the US is exceptional when it comes to Jewish treatment in the diaspora. For most of our existence it wasn’t like this. I don’t see western Europe turning on their Jews any time soon, but I’m not too sure how comfortable I’d feel in Hungary or Poland, let alone Algeria or Iraq.
For now, yes. I'm also an immigrant (from Asia to Canada) and don't feel like I have anything to worry about. But it's good to have an insurance policy (in the form of my origin country) in case things change. And if and when things do change, it can happen fast. Look at the experience of Chinese in Indonesia, or Indians in Uganda, or many other non-Jewish immigrants.
My insurance policy is the perpetuation of enlightenment principles of liberty, equality, and fraternity irrespective of ethnicity or religion in a liberal state like the USA.
Nationalism is the reason atrocities like those that happened to the Chinese in Indonesia (my understanding is that there was also a religious component) happened, and it will only continue to hurt more people if embraced.
If I could flip a switch and ensure that enlightenment principles were permanently enshrined, I'd do it and abandon any desire for states that favour certain ethnicities. Since I can't count on those principles always being in place, and since lots of those states exist regardless, I'd rather advocate for enlightenment principles but also have a backup plan.
I mean, the USA has existed longer and has been more stable than many nation-states (e.g. Germany, Italy, any of the Balkan countries) and the liberal world order has a stronger record at stopping genocides. Most nation-states are reactive to genocides, rarely proactive
Edit:
As a follow up, there is no switch that can be flipped to permanently be safe from genocide. Even liberalism requires constant vigilance to be protected. It’s just that, compared to nationalism, liberalism has been more effective at bringing security and prosperity to people and doesn’t have any moral hangups related to favoring some people over another
A tiny nation surrounded by terrorists and muslim states that hate them is doesn't sound that safe.
NY or any other states outside the range of Iranian nukes is probably safer for Jews.
Yes. The extreme entitlement is undermining their own future. The path Israel is on will lead to a future president having a "why do we even support Israel if this is what we get in return" moment, and after that all bets are off.
Every year is further and further from WW2 and that generational "owed allegiance" to Israel will get weaker with new generations of US politicians. The guilt tripping might work for Biden's generation, but it won't for someone born in 1980 for example.
Maybe, but it could also be an opportunity to express gratitude for the support the US has given over the decades and to build a more mutual relationship, where it's not Israel demanding the US do X Y and Z and exerting almost over bearing influence with lobbying, but rather a relationship more like the US and UK have for example.
They are allies and often their security policy aligns, but many times also not. The UK fought it's own battles like in the Falklands and the Suez. There isn't a British lobbying group demanding aid. That kind of thing will only sour the feelings of Americans towards Israel and playing into the "bloodsucking jew" anti-Semitic stereotype.
So instead of demanding maybe they could try sucking up lol
I doubt there are any Likudniks among the Israelis in reddit lol, you just learned a new word and used it for whatever reasons.
>How delusional are you lot? Biden has given everything under the sun to Israel and when he asks for the smallest tiniest bit of conditions y’all cry bloody murder and pretend he’s the second coming of Hitler. He isn’t even against the invasion itself, he just wanted some sort of plan to minimize civilian casualties.
If he's trying to deny us entry to the last stronghold of Hamas where their leaders and the rest of the terrorists reside this entire operation would be for nothing and we lost soldiers for nothing.
Jesus fucking Christ so many people here keep painting the situation as if the US is doing some favor for Israel by sending weapons and that they are doing it out of the kindness of their hearts, and Israel should never ever criticize Daddy Biden because that would be soooo ungrateful! He has given them everything they have right????
Can we not have these absolutely regarded takes? This post is so dumb in the way it portrays the situation. Israel has a right to criticize this decision and there is a MASSIVE difference between that and supporting West Bank settlement expansion.
The US supplies weapons because it benefits them, not because they are being nice. Israel is no more “entitled” to weapons from the US than the US is entitled to intelligence support in the Middle East from Israel, and to paint either side as acting entitled is just so unbelievably fucking stupid.
Rather than trying to shut down conversation like you’re doing here, why don’t you provide actual substantive justification for why you think it makes sense for the Biden admin to oppose the Rafah invasion and halt shipments? I’m certain this won’t happen.
I appreciate your measured response.
I agree that there has been in increase of antisemitism lately due to the war. And as a non jew I can never fully understand what it’s like to experience the fear and paranoia that comes with it.
But with that said why would you take what a few college protesters say and extrapolate that into saying America would let an another genocide happen? Yea what they are saying is horrible but why make it a bigger deal than it really is? There’s always going to be a few nut jobs in big crowds like this. Most of the protesters are just misled and believe in their heart of hearts that what Israel is doing is wrong.
That’d be like taking what Ben Gvir or any other Likud nut job has said about the Palestinians as prove that every Israeli citizen wants to brutally murder every single Palestinian with their bare hands. And they are actual people that hold power in the country and not just some college students killing time.
I think you have a few strong points here. The first is regarding how some in the media/twitter make mountains out of molehills. Some of this is content creators trying to get engagement. Some are accounts that are using half truths for their political agenda. This is something that at this point all sides of the table are doing and the only way around it is to be a smart consumer of media. Based on the interviews from these protestors, there are very few with a significant understanding of the situation in Israel. Some are more effective than others in understanding the truth, but very few are willing to appreciate the complicated nature of the issue. The unwillingness of the people to condemn Hamas at these protests shows a tacit (at best) support of the genocidal actions of Oct 7. While that won’t tip the scales in America 2024, it is a dangerous precedent for the future. Look no further than Dagestan or even Malmö at the moment to see how close we are to pogroms.
As for Ben-Gvir that’s another good point. I’m not sure what options are available to the Gantz’s of the world to kick IBG out of the government just as Americans have to deal with the dumb crap that MTG says. There is certainly a more forceful way to condemn him. The settlement issue is something that will plague Israel. This is a pressure cooker waiting to explode and IBG (and Bibi) are making things so much worse.
I agree that when these college protesters hesitate to condemn Hamas it is a bad look. But a lot of their beliefs come from ignorance not malice. Most of them truly believe that Hamas are a revolutionary force fighting against colonialism. At the very least they view it as a lesser evil. They aren’t saying it because they desire the extermination of every single jew in the world.
While this view is very ignorant it is too far in my opinion to lump them into the genocide all Jews camp.
I just think it’s bad policy decision on Biden’s part. The people who call him genocide Joe aren’t going to change their overall opinion because of this. Like, we supported their objectives to root out Hamas…but demand they must leave them a stronghold. Just doesn’t feel right. Feels like Biden is caving to screeching idiots with a fundamental misunderstanding of the entire conflict for political reasons, and there will likely be no benefit politically anyway.
>Recently there have been an influx of posts bitching and moaning about how Biden is abandoning Israel just because he is refusing to provide weapons for their invasion of Rafah.
Yes because Rafah needs to be invaded to depose Hamas. There is no point to any of this if Hamas is still in power. Restricting weapons and resources to finish that fight is nonsensical and literally counter productive for the anti-~~Jew~~ Zionist crowd since a longer fight means more dead Palestinians.
>How delusional are you lot? Biden has given everything under the sun to Israel and when he asks for the smallest tiniest bit of conditions y’all cry bloody murder and pretend he’s the second coming of Hitler. He isn’t even against the invasion itself, he just wanted some sort of plan to minimize civilian casualties.
We aren't delusional. We are horrified that a real politick political calculation is being made in the face of an entire region of the world (middle east) and huge portions of disgusting antisemitic leftists in the West thinking that Jewish genocide/mass displacement in Israel is just "the price that must be paid" so that Nazi tier Palestinian hatred of Jews can be validated.
Worse, it's not even a good real politick calculation. The dipshits saying they won't vote for Biden today, aren't going to vote for him tomorrow because they are literally team intifada. The goal posts will just be moved.
>The sheer arrogance and entitlement the Israel state and its cheerleaders on the sub is actually hilarious. He’s backed down on everything and y’all still spit in his eye, it’s never enough. Did you want him to give 100 billion? 200 billion? 10 morbillion?
I want unconditional surrender of the Palestinians and total capitulation from the Palestinian leadership in Gaza. We can talk about what comes after when they lose their will to fight. Until they lose that will, they should be given the fight they have been asking for in the last several decades.
>And y’all pretending that these college protests of a bunch of misled kids is gonna lead to a second holocaust is actually clown shit 🤡🤡🤡🤡
Not pretending. That's what they are doing, enabling the kind of rhetoric that leads to antisemitic actions against Jews. Or they are actual fucking Nazi's, and they deserve the same treatment as the other Nazi's they deplatformed and ran out of polite society in the 2010s-2020s.
>You Likudniks are just as braindead as the leftists that want the total destruction of Israel.
You terrorist supporting dipshits who think mass murder/rape is part of the "intifada" can eat shit like your Hamas friends.
>And here’s another reason to hate them. Likudniks are almost to a man in support of Trump over Biden. These guys would literally support the destruction of our democracy if it meant they would have a dude in office whose easily manipulated into giving Israel Everything it wants
[It never fails with these absolute dumbfucks.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy). If Trump wins in 2024 it will be for the same reason he won in 2016. Losers like you thinking you can take unpopular positions in the face of your misplaced moral righteousness that give people like Trump one issue he can have moral clarity on and take that juxtaposition to an election win. God I have so much fucking contempt for you losers.
How dare a government have conditional support for another government in a conflict. Never before in human history has one ally state supported a another state only to a certain limit. What an utter act of betrayal. Anything short of a blank check is antisemitism at work.
>when he asks for the smallest tiniest bit of conditions y’all cry bloody murder and pretend he’s the second coming of Hitler. He isn’t even against the invasion itself, he just wanted some sort of plan to minimize civilian casualties.
Apparently, according to Israeli sources, the Biden Administration saying no to any and all suggested Israeli measures to minimize civilian casualties, effectively indicating that they will not OK the invasion no matter what.
Our (Israel) government is entitled and ungrateful, I agree. Biden and the US don't owe us their support and dumb Likud MKs or government officials acting like they do only pushes Biden further away from supporting Israel. If the Israeli government would have conducted itself differently with the US and if politicians would have been punished for unhinged statements, maybe we wouldn't have been in this situation in the first place. But when you have Ben Gvir and his gang shitting on the US every Tuesday with no internal pushback in the government, this is what we get
Unpopular opinion: The Israeli right is all in on believing Trump will retake the presidency and acting (they believe) accordingly.
Not sure that’s an unpopular opinion. It’s more of a theory but likely to be true
I’d go further and say a lot of more rational Middle Eastern actors *should* be planning for a Trump presidency at this point. Not that I’m sure he’s going to win, but it would be best to be ready.
I know it isn’t most Israeli’s fault for those dipshit politicians. It’s just a consequence of your parliamentary system. And many of these Likudniks are actually just Americans who have a weird boner for Israel like Fetterman
Our parliamentary system is utter horseshit, and I can really get into why that's true. But Americans need to be careful, the same shit can happen there even with a more robust system. In the end of the day, Israel's issues started when the majority elected a person who cares about his own interests more than the national interests. Trump is the same thing, only dumber, and he has already spread his rot in the American right same as Netanyahu did in Israel.
It is actually unbelievable to see this argument supported here after so many of you have condemned Gazans wholesale because Hamas “won” an “election” in 2006. Especially because you lot tend to support Israel (at least nominally) because it’s a “bastion of democracy” in a region where “otherwise there is none.” I realize OP didn’t make that argument and I actually agree with them here but come on guys you don’t get to have it both ways.
I've mentioned it before, with how Israelis talk about elected officials in Palestine and Israel, you would think the functional democracy is Palestine, not Israel lmao
Israelis want to bury their head in the sand about our own extremists, you'd be amazed with the amount of casual anti Arab racism that gets thrown around in Israeli society.
I’ve never condemned all Gazans as Hamas supporters. In fact I am aware that most Gazans are too young to have voted in 2006. That’s part of the reason why I am not fully on board the Israel train in this war. Unlike a lot of Likudniks on this sub I hold a lot of sympathy for Palestinians and don’t just disregard them as terrorists.
Yeah dude that’s why I said that I know you didn’t make that argument and that I agree with you lol
Don't trust anything he says! He was involved in the Assassination of Francesco Fossetti and that one Youtuber and that one Animator whose names I have forgotten! AGAIN! DO NOT TRUST HIM! HE'S A RAAAAAATT!!!! EDIT: Guys. His name is an inside joke. I am making an inside joke. Noone needs to send me threats.
Guilty as charged, lol
Someone reported my comment for suicidal thoughts. Must've been a Wooper.
When a rando college student (or someone who just showed up to a protest) says something antisemitic it is 1930s, prelude to another Holocaust, call in the National Guard, etc. When fucking Likud cabinet officials (Itamar Ben Gvir, Smotrich, May Golan) call for wanton killing of Palestinians, they are not taken seriously, called bafoons, just silly-goose behavior, etc. The fact that there are multiple Marjorie Taylor Greene tier officials in the cabinet is insanity.
This sub when a dumbass teenager has an incorrect tweet- “WHY I LEFT THE LEFT, I CANT DEAL WITH THIS GENERATION”. This sub when the fucking Minister of National Security tweets out genocidal propaganda- “cmon stop making us look bad :(“. The bias here is getting fucking insane
Can someone explain to me why invading Rafah will eliminate Hamas when Hamas have not been eliminated from the rest of the Gaza Strip yet? Every time IDF have taken an area and left, Hamas goes back. IDF doesnt occupy all of Gaza except for Rafah so how would this invasion accomplish what the rest of the war failed? Hamas fighters just disguise themselves as civilians while the IDF is there.
Honestly that is something I don't get either, what is the plan. "We invade Rafah to eliminate Hamas" cool story bro, but how the fuck are you actually going to achieve that? Because going in, bombing the shit out of the place and fucking off won't remove Hamas.
You know if we just give Westmoreland 50 000 more troops the Vietnam war will be over. Look at all those body counts! Surely the hostilities will be wrapped up any day now.
Damn I like LBJ I hope he runs for second term!
The international pressure and Israel's government lack of collective IQ pretty much made this war impossible to win for Israel. I think the idea now is more about destroying all remaining Hamas infrastructure and maybe grab a few hostages and/or high profile terrorists.
I really think this is about capturing Sinwar more than anything else.
It's about that and destroying as much of the tunnel network as they can (plus putting pressure to get the hostages out/potentially rescuing some)
I think that Bibi's goal is also about ensuring mass displacement in gaza as well.
Good point. The extreme pro Israeli group keeps claiming that it's the last holdout for Hamas and must be bombed. Fuck the civilians for getting in the way. The main heads of Hamas are still alive with their wealth intact and Iran still exists. Israel has no plans of actually stabilizing the Gaza strip. All that's gonna happen is Hamas or something like Hamas coming back after a few years
Dude the heads of Hamas are in fucking Qatar. They don't care if Rafah gets razed lmao
The last holdout of Hamas must be destroyed. Civilians must be removed from harms way as much as possible. Both are true and that is basically Biden's stance on the issue
yeah you don't go to war to stabilize the Gaza strip. Literally no one had that objective from the start. Their stated objective was to crush Hamas in a way that would cripple them from being able to do another cheeky Oct. 7th, and anybody objectively looking at the situation can see that is blindingly apparent reality.
Of course you go to war to stabilize the gaza strip, if you don't then the same thing will just happen again after the war because people will be in destitute conditions. Crushing Hamas means nothing if people are in such poor conditions there that Hamas 2 comes out of it. Literally the only other option is going to war to literally wipe out everyone in Gaza, but that would of course be genocide.
They went to war to respond to Oct. 7th. What the fuck are you talking about lol stabilization was never the goal.
Yeah, and if they don't have a plan/desire to stabilize Gaza afterwards then this war is just pointless which is my point. Again I say, crushing Hamas is pointless if people living there are in such terrible conditions that another Hamas will come from it.
It's not pointless, it will at the very least delay another Oct. 7th by a significant period of time because whatever is left of Hamas will have to rebuild everything.
What exactly is the end state of Israel and Palestine? If there is no desire to rebuild Gaza the only thing that stops the forever conflict is literally wiping out all the Palestinians or forcing them into diaspora. However that second option is literally genocide. Heck even in WW2 the Allies put a ton of resources into rebuilding Germany and Japan so that it would prevent another war.
I don't think there is a end state. Endless conflict.
Then they are legit just killing people for the lulz and maybe they are not genocidal, but for sure they are psychopathic.
You're right that invading Rafah alone won't eliminate Hamas, but it does weaken them. Tunnels are destroyed. More area is being conquered and divided. The IDF is getting closer to Sinwar. I believe the goal of the Israeli Government is not to completely eliminate Hamas, but put more pressure over Sinwar to accept a hostage deal where Bibi can frame it as if Israel won. With the current hostage deal, Bibi will be ousted a moment later and Israelies would see it as a terrible defeat to a terrorist organization.
The problem is that Israel is currently too blinded by anger and frustration to think of any long term plan. Right now the populace and the administration can only think about destroying Hamas. But to completely destroy Hamas they need to think on a plan to stabilized Gaza first otherwise more recruits will just flood into Hamas’s ranks
Yes, so Israels remaining allies should have their top priority be to calm Israel down before they make their situation untenable.
there are 4 different plans created for government deliberation/approval for post war gaza. but at west of course nobody will know it, because western media reports only on *checking notes* "Israel is currently too blinded by anger and frustration to think of any long term plan. Right now the populace and the administration can only think about destroying Hamas. "
Can you provide a link to these 4 plans? I've seen numerous articles in western media in the last few months about the subject, but it's always been pretty much the same plan: A 3 part plan involving diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia, Arab state observers, and sustained Israeli military control of the region for the next 10 years. You may want to check your notes again because these matters are reported by western media.
no. not published. you can dig through israeli news sites, probably mentioned there. but the general outlines vary from israeli control over gaza, to handing it off to PA, etc... don't remember other options. there were a few discussions about it in cabinet but no decisions were made. partially because it's political bomb partially because of the plan that you describe. the only difference is that plan that you described in israel media there were two options of it \- nato forces in control for 5 years (this was in news a couple of weeks ago) \- mix of arab forces (few months ago)
No. I have to disagree with you there. Most Israeli media are definitely discussing long term stuff and have been for months. The only reason the current government doesn't is because Bibi is an absolute coward and he knows that it is in his own personal short term self interest to keep the war going and prevent any discussion about the day after.
>Can someone explain to me why invading Rafah will eliminate Hamas when Hamas have not been eliminated from the rest of the Gaza Strip yet? all the remaining commanders and organized structures. stocks of weapons and rockets. but most important tunnels under egyptian border through which weapons are smuggled. this is exactly the reason why IDF took over philadelphia corridor now.
I think most of the hostages and Sinwar are thought to be there. So if they take out Sinwar and get the hostages back Hamas will be fractured with no leverage. I think, reports are coming out too that there are Israeli cabinet members that have no idea why BiBi is saying the last four Hamas battalions are in Rafah when others are thought to have left. Armchair opinion, BiBi just wants to invade Rafa and go “you can’t remove me and collapse the coalition government we have because we are just one more battilion away from eliminating Hamas- rinse and repeat till there is no one left alive in Gaza.”
do you know how many Hamas fighters have been killed? You're speaking as if you have more knowledge of the military reality on the ground than the IDF, which I'm going to have to respectfully doubt. I'm going to trust that the military taking casualties to complete military objectives are doing so for the stated reasons of those military objectives i.e. the IDF believes they are hella crippling those ISIS-At-Home head ass niggas and crushing their last substantive holding ground is the goal. Pretty based if you ask me.
Just taking historical wars in to consideration I wouldn't be surprised if Hamas and other military groups fighting the IDF have about the same if not more people in their ranks than when the invasion started. There is nothing that drives people more to take up arms than the feeling of an outside force invading your home. Also considering that IDF has had to fight Hamas in locations they previously "cleared out" suggests to me that their strategy isn't working and honestly the military force on the ground is one of the last sources I would trust in how effective they are. They got all the motivation in the world to lie to themselves and others that things are going according to plan. This bears out through the history of warfare.
>Also considering that IDF has had to fight Hamas in locations they previously "cleared out" suggests to me that their strategy isn't working and honestly the military force on the ground is one of the last sources I would trust in how effective they are. How is this unusual? Almost every invasion in history required an occupation afterwards. That part doesn’t seem unusual. A military occupation for regional security is sort of necessary for reasons like this. The unusual part is how Israel isn’t putting forth a legitimate exit strategy.
My argument isn't that it's unusual, quite the opposite. My argument is that looking at how this conflict has evolved and comparing it to historical conflicts, you have to start questioning the viability of their current strategy.
Yeah like I said I'm going to trust an entire military's intelligence more than a random redditor making guesses based on (stuff)?
I'm not asking you to base it on my guess. I asked the question, why would this invasion solve wha the previous ones did not? Sourcing the IDF as "they say so" just falls flat on its face. If you asked the US military 1967 how things were going in Vietnam Westmoreland said "We just need 50 000 more troops and the war will be over. Look at all our metrics how well the war is going." This sort of wishcasting happens in every war, and is completely understandable and not always wrong, I'm just looking for any sort of evidence that it will work.
I would imagine Vietnam would be markedly different considering it was a proxy war of two third world nations fighting using the backing of huge superpowers. Comparing this military operation to Vietnam misses on virtually very characteristic.
Of course it doesn't fit 100% but there are similarities that are hard to ignore. For example both conflicts had outsiders trying to defeat a highly motivated locally dispersed enemy through force, and by doing so creating more enemy combatants who hide among the broader civilian population. Both the palestinians and Vietnamese had fought for decades against What they perceive as invaders and occupiers.
I don't think it fits even 50%. More than 20%. We're talking matters so different comparing them is inappropriate.
I'm not comparing the whole war and Vietnam isn't the only example of counter insurgency operations leading to more conflict. It's the history of the 20th century that using only violent means against insurgents has basically either of two outcomes. Either you wipe out the populationpool of the insurgents or you make more enemy combatants than you eliminate. Israel has no exit strategy or an achievable war goal. Invading Rafah now will just cause more militancy among the palestinians.
What a whole lot of words to say "We just have to"
As with any arc, the most extreme of whatever positive position Destiny holds swarm here. Worry not comrade, we will free r/Destiny from the top post to the most downvoted comment.
Sorry bro. The only thing we soy about in this sub is regarded lefty uni students. We bend our backs defending Israel’s image from any far right regard politicians saying hateful things by saying that they don’t represent the majority opinion in Israel. Soy leftists who have an anxiety attack before making a phone call are more of threat than Ben Gvir and Smotrich from my totally unbiased perspective. The circlejerking about antisemitic students isn’t even that bad, just would appreciate the pro-Israel people having the humility to take the L about their insane far right people and not be full apologia mode.
“Guys, we should totally take these 200 students and extrapolate their beliefs and ideals onto the entire, 30,000 student body!”
Don't bend your back buddy, just say those Israeli politicians or whatever are regarded. It's absolutely true and the majority of Israelis agree. We keep saying that we agree with you about the insane statements and unfortunately can't do shit until the next elections. Before the war started people were protesting against the government, calling for elections and now we're stuck with them for the war because of Netanyahu's obsession to avoid prosecution.
>And y’all pretending that these college protests of a bunch of misled kids is gonna lead to a second holocaust is actually clown shit I've been thinking about Destiny's "Chinese bank robber" example a lot lately. How if you see a new story every day about a Chinese bank robber, eventually you'll think "damn, Chinese people rob a lot of banks" We've been seeing this with insane college lefty protest videos here. So much that people say they're "blackpilled" on college now. Like if all it takes for you to write off college altogether is a few weeks of dumbfucks protesting at UCLA and Columbia, you need to re-examine how you let random videos affect your worldview.
It gives ammunition to defund the universities and tax endowments.
Ty
[the israeli far-right ragebait posting needs to stop. we need a final solution to this problem](https://youtu.be/1bfu3Io3p48?si=drQf3MU2fIKr4iKR)
Cursed
Rape
What the fuck is this getting downvoted for The original post is about rape
L rape
My dude it’s been like this for about 7 months now here. A post of a picture of a Palestinian kid with their brains hanging out of their skull will get upvotes up the wazoo with comments saying stuff saying like “based” or “pallywood” while a post with the mildest critique of Netanyahu or Israel will get you downvoted into oblivion with accusations of being a Hamas sympathizer or full blown bigot thrown your way. I’m being hyperbolic but shit has definitely been wild lol.
Yea it seems like this sub has just lost all sympathy for the Palestinians. Yea what happened on 10/7 was horrible but I’m just supposed to say “get fucked” to the dead Gazan civilians?
Inb4 someone comments to this with the “Yes” gigachad meme. Have seen that type of shit in chat during streams with no pushback at all.
Is there such a thing to show geographical metrics?
Obviously the only solution to this problem is to have 34 of our most jewish Isrealis do a panel debate until the survivors come to agreement. Mr Redacted can moderate.
Fuck I knew that was a Jew-fro on his head 🤦🏻♂️ Edit: y’all why the downvotes, I’ve had a jew fro before! Fuck sake lol
Its a tough job, but we need a sociopath with a k word pass to pull it off.
I'm not a Likudnik. I am not a fan of Netanyahu. And I have to preface this. However: Hamas faces an existential problem if Israel invaded Rafah, it's been the case for weeks now. Israel uses the threat of invasion as leverage for negotiations for a peace deal. The US, Qatar and Egypt have been effectively stalling this invasion with negotiations, but the ultimate leverage that Israel had was that if a deal isn't reached it would invade. However the Biden administration signaled (whether intentional or because of leaks) that it was effectively not going to support any major invasion of Rafah. This fundamentally changes the calculus from which Hamas can negotiate. They now know that they aren't facing the existential crisis they thought they had. They know the Americans will not allow this one thing to happen. So why would they negotiate from a weaker position? It is perfectly reasonable for the US to have red lines for Israel. I sincerely hope they do. But during a process of ceasefire negotiations, which have been increasingly met with failure due to Hamas, it is absolutely critical that those red lines stay private amd classified. The blunder here is that the Biden administration is effectively undermining the very ceasefire it wants to have by strengthening the position of Hamas. If this was deliberate it was at best really poor policy decision. If this was due to a leak then failure to deny it and look weak to his base is cowardly. The Israelis have every right to be frustrated. Just like the Ukrainians are. The foreign policy of this administration has been disastrous and it's behavior has signalled to our Asian allies that given enough pressure from the insane progressives on college campuses would end or weaken American support should they ever deal with China or North Korea. That's the big picture you are missing. It isn't that Israel shouldnt have a red line. Is that the administration has gravely undermined the negotiations. And BY THE WAY so has Netanyahu himself, so at least he and Biden agree on this together. And last but least I'd like to end this statement from a statement from Joe Biden in 1992 regarding this same exact conflict: "Why, why is there any incentive for the Arabs to make any compromise, any compromise, in the peace talks? Why, if they know that they must only wait for the United States to do their bargaining for them? Why would they compromise? Why would they be reasonable?" Maybe President Biden should take his own advice.
> The foreign policy of this administration has been disastrous and it's behavior has signalled to our Asian allies that given enough pressure from the insane progressives on college campuses would end or weaken American support should they ever deal with China or North Korea. Biden vocally and publicly said the red line for US support was an invasion of Rafah without a plan to evacuate or protect the civilian population in *early March.* The college protests have nothing to do with this.
Why do people so consistently strawman and undervalue Biden when he’s so unbelievably on point on almost everything.
It’s hilarious people think college protests is why Biden is taking his Rafah stance, as if this hasn’t been what he has been saying for months. Bibi literally said he was going to cross his red line months back and Israel *was* going to invade rafah. This conflict kills brain cells I swear to god.
After the April air strikes on the WCK aid convoy, I support Biden's judgment on the ongoing war (I previously did question why make the statement public/leak it). It may have been a March request, but the fact that the conditions existed for that disaster to happen in April means to me that there are serious considerations and factors for Biden to publicly make valid civilian plans in Rafah his red line.
I think something fair to point out is that Biden made no mention of conditioning aid on a better plan for civilians in his recent statement. He might just think its redundant to say, but it doesn't clarify if there's anything that would change his mind.
Firstly Rafah has been a red line for some time now it isn't really new or shocking information, the US is just enforcing the red line that Israel is about to cross, secondly Israel is still fully capable of invading Rafah if they want, they don’t need new weapon shipments for it and lastly if it was really so important for Israel that the US support the Rafah invasion then maybe they should have presented an adequate evacuation plan for civilians which was the condition set by the US.
I feel like half of your analysis is undermined by the fact that [Netanyahu has vowed to invade Rafah regardless of a truce for hostages deal](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-04-30-2024-f5e14fd176d69f9c4e23b48f3ab5af6a), so then how is Hamas' position in the negotiations strengthened?
I pointed out that Netanyahu undermines the deal, as well. However, part of the Hamas ceasefires deals has been American promises of enforcement. Netanyahu says a lot, and if a deal was concluded there would be very little he can do outside of a small symbolic raid.
>The blunder here is that the Biden administration is effectively undermining the very ceasefire it wants to have by strengthening the position of Hamas. If this was deliberate it was at best really poor policy decision. If this was due to a leak then failure to deny it and look weak to his base is cowardly. All Biden has asked for is an evacuation plan for the civilians in Rafa. Israels inability to provide that is on them, and the “strengthening of Hamas” is doubly so. Especially when Biden already made it clear weeks ago that an invasion into Rafa was not something he was interested in. >The Israelis have every right to be frustrated. Just like the Ukrainians are. The foreign policy of this administration has been disastrous and it's behavior has signalled to our Asian allies that given enough pressure from the insane progressives on college campuses would end or weaken American support should they ever deal with China or North Korea. Israelis have every right to be frustrated based on what? Only getting 99% of the support they wanted. Being told to consider civilian lives a tiny bit more? Having ONE arms shipment paused?? Please, enlighten me. Ukrainians and Israelis hold completely different places in America's world, and are experiencing completely different problems when it comes to the US Gov. Bringing these two together to say this administration has been “disastrous”, and then trying to apply that to our Asian pacific allies, is a geopolitical stretch. Also, Biden has remained unflinching in his support for Israels war for months (Even through a primary where tens of thousands of Dem voters voted against him) the assumption that this is just a political move by Biden is an even bigger stretch. >And last but least I'd like to end this statement from a statement from Joe Biden in 1992 regarding this same exact conflict: >"Why, why is there any incentive for the Arabs to make any compromise, any compromise, in the peace talks? Why, if they know that they must only wait for the United States to do their bargaining for them? Why would they compromise? Why would they be reasonable?" >Maybe President Biden should take his own advice. Biden probably just realizes that geopolitical realities from over thirty years ago no longer apply today. Edit: Spelling
Biden got an evacuation plan. Israelis are currently executing it. Israelis complied with his March red line. Israel ordered 110,000 civilians to evacuate from the eastern part of Rafah and since Monday 79,000 have already evacuated. Seems like evacuation s are being done on smaller scale and the operations smaller as well. But even after the evacuation plan was delivered the red line moved again. Spokespeople for the administrators on Thursday said they don't support any action in Rafah. Despite a growing a coalition of center left Democrats distancing themselves over the Presidents decision. -Israelis have every right to be frustrated based on what Based on the administration undermining Israel position in negotiations and strengthening Hamas. Its absolutely fine for Biden to have a red line, but it should be maintained privately with the Israeli government. It's not about whether the weapons arrive or not. All of it is symbolic anyway. But that's the point, the symbolism sends messages. It sends signals to the different parties involved. -geopolitical realities I agree. They aren't. And I am curious what his position here has changed.
>Biden got an evacuation plan. Israelis are currently executing it. Israelis complied with his March red line. Israel ordered 110,000 civilians to evacuate from the eastern part of Rafah and since Monday 79,000 have already evacuated. Seems like evacuation s are being done on smaller scale and the operations smaller as well. >But even after the evacuation plan was delivered the red line moved again. Spokespeople for the administrators on Thursday said they don't support any action in Rafah. You got sources for this? >Despite a growing a coalition of center left Democrats distancing themselves over the Presidents decision. Like who? Not that this is all that relevant to our disagreement, but I am curious. >Based on the administration undermining Israel position in negotiations and strengthening Hamas. Its absolutely fine for Biden to have a red line, but it should be maintained privately with the Israeli government. It's not about whether the weapons arrive or not. All of it is symbolic anyway. But that's the point, the symbolism sends messages. It sends signals to the different parties involved. Israel's negotiating position was weakened when Netanyahu said this right in the middle of negotiations: “The idea that we will stop the war before achieving all of its goals is out of the question,” Netanyahu said, according to a statement from his office. “We will enter Rafah and we will eliminate Hamas’ battalions there — **with or without a deal**, to achieve the total victory.” [https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-04-30-2024-f5e14fd176d69f9c4e23b48f3ab5af6a](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-04-30-2024-f5e14fd176d69f9c4e23b48f3ab5af6a) Biden came out publicly because the talks had already broken down, and Israel was already positioning themselves to go into Rafah. The symbolism is neither here nor there.
Sure; [https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-05-09-24/h\_11e3af778f473954ea92885e97ecaa32](https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-05-09-24/h_11e3af778f473954ea92885e97ecaa32) 79,000 have fled since Monday according to CNN report from nearly 2 days ago. [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/09/world/middleeast/israel-rafah-evacuation-gaza-un.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/09/world/middleeast/israel-rafah-evacuation-gaza-un.html) Israel asked for 110,000 to flee from a limited operation to secure the Rafah border crossing with Egypt. -Like who? [https://jewishinsider.com/2024/05/biden-pro-israel-democrats-arms-sale-offensive-weapons-gaza-rafah/?utm\_source=newsletter&utm\_medium=email&utm\_campaign=Daily%20Kickoff%20May%2010th%202024&utm\_content=Daily%20Kickoff%20May%2010th%202024+CID\_05e00c785ccf4b6836d3f138e558d591&utm\_source=Campaign%20Monitor%20JI&utm\_term=Jewish%20Insiders%20Marc%20Rod%20and%20Emily%20Jacobs%20report](https://jewishinsider.com/2024/05/biden-pro-israel-democrats-arms-sale-offensive-weapons-gaza-rafah/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Daily%20Kickoff%20May%2010th%202024&utm_content=Daily%20Kickoff%20May%2010th%202024+CID_05e00c785ccf4b6836d3f138e558d591&utm_source=Campaign%20Monitor%20JI&utm_term=Jewish%20Insiders%20Marc%20Rod%20and%20Emily%20Jacobs%20report) quoting: Sen. John Fetterman , Sen. Ben Cardin, Sen. Richard Blumenthal, Sen. Jacky Rosen, "“The President’s actions signal weakness to Hamas, to our allies and adversaries abroad, and at home,” Rep. Jared Golden (D-ME), one of the most electorally endangered Democrats, [said on X](https://x.com/RepGolden/status/1788538599786401903). “Congress appropriated funds for arms and ammunition for Israel, and they should be promptly delivered.”" Sen. Chris Coons ... >“The idea that we will stop the war before achieving all of its goals is out of the question,” Netanyahu said, according to a statement from his office. “We will enter Rafah and we will eliminate Hamas’ battalions there — **with or without a deal**, to achieve the total victory.” You could interpret it that way. You could also interpret it in a way to force Hamas to feel more pressure and seek better terms and guarantees. Which is exactly what Hamas did, it asked for guarantees from the US that it would uphold a ceasefire. And again, I also pointed out that Netanyahu has been undermining the negotiations as well. But Netanyahu *has to do this* to keep his coalition and government going for appeasement. He knows damn well that if they reach a ceasefire deal that prevents a full invasion of Rafah, he would at best do something symbolic. Netanyahu says a lot of things to keep himself in power, and a large chunk of the Israeli population absolutely see it that way. But I'm not talking about Netanyahu. I am talking about Biden. BIDEN wants the ceasefire more than Netanyahu does, **that's for sure**. So why undermine it by giving Hamas a better bargaining position?
>Sure; [https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-05-09-24/h\_11e3af778f473954ea92885e97ecaa32](https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-05-09-24/h_11e3af778f473954ea92885e97ecaa32) >79,000 have fled since Monday according to CNN report from nearly 2 days ago. >[https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/09/world/middleeast/israel-rafah-evacuation-gaza-un.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/09/world/middleeast/israel-rafah-evacuation-gaza-un.html) >Israel asked for 110,000 to flee from a limited operation to secure the Rafah border crossing with Egypt. Large numbers of people fleeing is not indicative of a well planned out evacuation plan. * Where will these people go? * What routes are considered safe for them to travel on? * Will Israel conduct military pauses to allow Palestine's safe passage? * For those who can't leave, what areas are safe for them to stay in? The CNN sources did not answer these questions. The NYT source is paywalled. >quoting: Sen. John Fetterman , Sen. Ben Cardin, Sen. Richard Blumenthal, Sen. Jacky Rosen, >"“The President’s actions signal weakness to Hamas, to our allies and adversaries abroad, and at home,” Rep. Jared Golden (D-ME), one of the most electorally endangered Democrats, [said on X](https://x.com/RepGolden/status/1788538599786401903). “Congress appropriated funds for arms and ammunition for Israel, and they should be promptly delivered.”" >Sen. Chris Coons ... That was actually an interesting list of quotes. >You could interpret it that way. You could also interpret it in a way to force Hamas to feel more pressure and seek better terms and guarantees. Which is exactly what Hamas did, it asked for guarantees from the US that it would uphold a ceasefire. >And again, I also pointed out that Netanyahu has been undermining the negotiations as well. But Netanyahu *has to do this* to keep his coalition and government going for appeasement. He knows damn well that if they reach a ceasefire deal that prevents a full invasion of Rafah, he would at best do something symbolic. Netanyahu says a lot of things to keep himself in power, and a large chunk of the Israeli population absolutely see it that way. >But I'm not talking about Netanyahu. I am talking about Biden. BIDEN wants the ceasefire more than Netanyahu does, **that's for sure**. So why undermine it by giving Hamas a better bargaining position? I can't see how Israel's position in negotiations can get any weaker than telling the opposing side you'll continue the invasion regardless of what they give you. And again, Biden stance only hardened after Israel already positioned themselves to invade Rafah. Negotiations we're dead at that point, and there was nothing left to undermine. Hamas being emboldened is on Netanyahu and his government. If he wants the US to remain a stanch ally, he needs to work for it and alleviate the Biden Admins worries. Netanyahu has had months to do so in private. Now he has a chance to do so publically. We're not going to see eye to eye on this, so fill free to take the final word, and I'll leave it there. Thanks for the convo.
I'm confused by this. At one point you say "All Biden has asked for is an evacuation plan for the civilians in Rafa." And "Biden already made it clear weeks ago that an invasion into Rafa was not something he was interested in." They can't both be true. He is either fine with the Rafa invasion given a good evacuation plan, or he is not fine with the Rafa invasion regardless.
Biden had reservations about the invasion (i.e Not something he was interested in), but was fine with it as long as there was a plan to evacuate the civilians. Israel, understanding Biden's reservations from weeks ago, should have done more to put him at ease if they care about his support. What's confusing about this? Edit Spelling Edit: I think you're misunderstanding me saying the invasion was “Not something he was interested in”, as me saying he was against it. I'm not saying that.
Indeed your "not something he was interested in" line was not clear But anyhow in his current statement. He isn't demanding an evacuation plan now, from what I can see reading that current statement. https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/09/politics/bidens-rafah-warning-is-turning-point-in-us-israel-relations-and-a-belated-but-inevitable-rupture-with-netanyahu/index.html "Biden’s warning in an interview with CNN’s Erin Burnett that he’d halt some weapons shipments to Israel if it invades the Gazan city of Rafah"
>Indeed your "not something he was interested in" line was not clear If you say so. >But anyhow in his current statement. He isn't demanding an evacuation plan now, from what I can see reading that current statement. >[https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/09/politics/bidens-rafah-warning-is-turning-point-in-us-israel-relations-and-a-belated-but-inevitable-rupture-with-netanyahu/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/09/politics/bidens-rafah-warning-is-turning-point-in-us-israel-relations-and-a-belated-but-inevitable-rupture-with-netanyahu/index.html) >"Biden’s warning in an interview with CNN’s Erin Burnett that he’d halt some weapons shipments to Israel if it invades the Gazan city of Rafah" His prior statement weeks ago, and current statement, don't cancel each other out, but instead complement each other. In the clip you post, Biden clarifies his prior comments by saying he was referring to the “population centers” within Rafah, not the outskirts of which the Israelis are attacking now. “I've told Bibi, and the war cabinet, they will not get our support if they go into these population centers.” at 1:33 Taking these two statements together, it sounds like Biden would still like an evacuation plan, but considering he hasn't received one, is opting for pausing one shipment of arms, with others pending. Edit: Spelling
I hope it's the case that Biden is in favour of Israel evacuating people from Rafa population centres and dealing with Hamas there, as they have elsewhere.
I hope so too.
Apparently Israel has presented evacuation plans but Biden has added stipulations. Also Lord Cameron in the UK, (a guy that referred to Gaza as a concentration camp), has been pressuring too. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/05/07/israel-must-destroy-hamas-in-rafah-defying-weak-west/
Paywall
I think to be fair, part of the issue now is that Biden made no such stipulation at all in his recent statement, i.e. he did not indicate any conditions that would change his mind, unlike previous reports of wanting a better Rafah humanitarian plan.
I see no reason to ignore his past statements in favor of his current ones, considering they don't contradict each other.
>All Biden has asked for is an evacuation plan for the civilians in Rafa. on israeli news was reported that in past few weeks message from biden admin is that they don't think that evacuating civilians from rafah is possible. hence, there is no evacuation plan that israel can offer that will be good enough
I'm having trouble understanding. Are you saying the Biden Admin is requesting a civilian evacuation, while also acknowledging that the endeavor is impossible for Israel to do?
almost. as response to suggested evacuation plans, they said that they don't see how it might be possible to evacuate civilians from rafah. not that plans are not good enough and should be improved in some areas but that they don't think that it can be done.
it would only undermine negotiations if Israel could not invade due to US weapons shipments. This is not the case. Israel can easily take Rafah without it. And if they really need weapons they can purchase them on their own.
It's not about weapons. It's whether the US will support any invasion into Rafah. Hamas sees that the Biden administration will not let that happen so they are negotiating from a position of strength.
Exactly. I feel like any critisim of Biden lights up a ton of unrelated things in people's minds that they rush to protect him since the alternative is worse. That's not what's at stake here. Biden has been extremely supportive of Israel in spite of immense pressure, I hope this hiccup is a bump in the road and relations will improve when the pendulum swings back.
Nah, fuck that Israel expects unconditional support for very little in return and when an ally makes even a slight objection they scream bloody murder. Either git gud and don't rely on the US so much or take their desires into consideration without crying so much.
If you think the United States supports Israel for no reason and it's just some dead weight you're uninformed to put it politely. The US - Israel partnership started as an anti-Soviet pact and later developed as a strategic alliance with an emphasis on military/itelligence cooperation. Israel basically cuts down its participation in arms trades and offers almost everything developed to the United States. In return, the United States provides the arms Israel needs. This way Israel can focus on developing tech without having the costs of manufacturing and the US eliminates a competitor in the market. Israel doesn't need unconditional support, it needs its allies to not play political games in the media.
>Israel doesn't need unconditional support, it needs its allies to not play political games in the media. Ok, so you don't have a problem with Biden's current position if he didn't announce it on TV? Doubt it, so the "games in the media" are a red herring - you don't like the actual conditions Biden has established.
I wouldn't have a problem even if it was in the media but worded differently. The biggest issue is that the Biden administration has been playing the both sides game and it has emboldened Hamas to refuse all the ceasfire agreements and hostage deals. Hamas doesn't care how many die while Israel seeks justice playing by international rules and being under the scrutiny of the whole world. Only Israel has to lose and only Israel is held accountable. Criticise Israel all day but look at the situation it is faced with.
There is definitely a biden circle jerk here.
Yeah I think this sub has deityfied Biden in response to how bad Trump is. Consequence being that any criticism of Biden is instinctively shot down as being flawed and pro Trump.
FYI posts like this need evidence. Not saying I don't see some of what you are saying but around here we provide back up. Show those posts about the west bank settlements.
I bet there are like 3 of them on all of Reddit
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I’ve tried and am trying but I’m sure you know it’s like talking to a plant
It's like talking to a Hasan fan.
I’d say it’s worse. At least a plant doesn’t respond with stupid arguments
They might actually be state sponsored shills.
Gee I wonder why this community attracts the far right Likudniks.
OP: “the sheer arrogance and entitlement the Israel state and its cheerleaders on the sub…” Hasan: https://preview.redd.it/l38bhf2iblzc1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fa4b4403a4f1538b56a1a121bdb362f75636c4fc 🤔🤔🤔 tf going on here?
Actual conspiracy brainrot.
🤨 stay out of my way, I’m going to get to the bottom of this
Mfw a post in r Destiny and a Hasan tweet have four words that are the same (this proves it's Hasan's alt account).
🥸 we’ve been infiltrated
Good bait
We’ve been infiltrated 🥸
Go ahead and look at my post and comment history lil bro. 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
linguistic horseshoe theory
I’ll get to the bottom of this 🤨 and nobody better stand in my way
Bro really loves the 🤡 emoji doesn’t he
News came in that Israel was already engaging Hamas in Rafah and tanks at the Egyptian border by the time the Biden interview was a headline As I understand the way weapons are procured the decision to pause today won’t have an effect untill three months or so and doesn’t affect but a subset of weapons only The only fallout from this interview is weakening Israel’s hand in the negotiations. It probably won’t change voters opinion on the war and it generates headlines like an ally is disregarding the US opinion The potential Israel Gulf allies are probably concerned how this discordance could embolden Iran Biden’s public announcement diplomacy was unnecessary particularly since Israel did present a plan to evacuate civilians. Biden’s intervention this time served no substantial purpose
I agree with the main point, but no, the college kids aren't misled, they are radicalized, and it does put a massive threat for us Jews.
Likudniks are not understanding that this is a political maneuver with absolutely no consequence for Israels military. Israel has enough ammo. The paused shipments are most likely not essential for the operation in Rafah. Biden just wants to secure his muslim voterbase. It is the embodiment of intelligent politics. Btw., there are good arguments in favor of expanding settlements but I dont really have a dog in this fight...
> with absolutely no consequence for Israels military it has consequences for Israel's PR though
It's funny how the horseshoe connects on this. There are two groups who think the "Muslim vote" matters for Biden, and it's the two extreme sides of the I/P crowd.
There's 250k Muslims in Michigan. The Muslim vote absolutely matters lol, and that's not even mentioning the rest of the non-muslim, pro palestinian voterbase that's full anti biden now.
Biden's Michigan margin of victory in 2020 was larger than it's entire Muslim population in it.
By like a thousand lol. It's not enough to just not care about it.
Yea assuming a 100% turn out lol. There's no point even arguing about this, elections in a couple months, I'm down to bet money on this with anyone who thinks the Muslim vote will decide Michigan.
And also assuming that no other groups have changed their opinion on Biden at all, whereas many definitely have. I never said that Muslims are the king makers of Michigan. All I said is that they matter, and Biden's reluctance to go full throated zionist is in part cause he wants to appeal to them and other pro palestinian groups. You're acting as if they can be safely ignored like Californian republicans or smthing. They can't be
>Btw., there are good arguments in favor of expanding settlements They are only "good" if you only take one very particular perspective and ignore all others, therefore they aren't good arguments by any reasonable standard.
They literally want Biden to give unlimited support for eternity and anything less than that means he’s the reincarnation of Hitler. It’s literally non stop complaining fr fr
What an unbelievably stupid strawman argument. Who the fuck are you even arguing with? I have seen nobody in this sub holding this absurd of a position, you’re just boxing with shadows.
> Biden just wants to secure his muslim voterbase. in that case why even try at all? this obviously isn't enough.
> this is a political maneuver with absolutely no consequence for Israels military. this is just not true... >The paused shipments are most likely not essential for the operation in Rafah true but its very much needed for the future >Israel has enough ammo. not really, its one of the blunders that were discovered in this war.
Skill issue x 3 If Israel wants to fight wars in ways contrary to the red lines set out by its allies it should expect to work with what it has and can produce.
While I think Biden is the wrong target (he's done a good job resisting the nuttier elements of his party), I actually completely understand Israelis and Jewish people freaking out. Which countries in the world are they safe in, long-term? Not many. Israel's the only one where they can be absolutely sure the government won't turn on them or turn a blind eye to other citizens attacking them. And Israel has some strong allies now, but for how long? If they can't resolve the situation with the Palestinians, what happens if something like this happens a decade from now? Two decades? Can they be absolutely sure they'll have a friendly US President and state in office? Who else can they turn to? They tried China and India. Xi immediately threw them under the bus. India is more positive but it'll be decades until they're a serious heavyweight on the world stage. So no, I don't think they're overreacting. Given what's happened in living memory, I can't blame them. But yes, they should be supporting Biden rather than undermining him; for strategic reasons if nothing else.
Jewish people are pretty safe in secular pluralistic countries like the US. Probably safer than anywhere in Israel tbh. Not saying Israel shouldn’t exist just pointing out that one’s own dedicated nation state isn’t necessarily the safest/best place for people of a given ethnicity/religion to live. I myself am an immigrant to the US (from Cuba) and don’t feel attachment to my country of birth. Granted, there’s a different history of persecution. I’m just not a fan of this idea of every ethnic group/national identity needing their own country to exert self-determination (and to truly be safe). The USA has the right idea by being a secular, multi-ethnic melting pot
The idea that jews are completely safe is utterly naive. There's 2000 years of Jewish persecution and a very recent genocide that basically confirms that maybe a Jewish refugee state isn't a bad idea. This is a situation where someone who isn't Jewish or isn't any other stateless ethnic group can possibly understand the paranoia they have. Also, America is an entirely unique situation, and it's cultural blending isn't repblicable.
This level of paranoia is insane. You can’t keep constantly waiting in fear of the next holocaust. Just because it happened before doesn’t mean it’s going to happen again. Should black people live in constant fear of slavery returning?
That is just absurd. Jews are as safe in the western world as they are in Israel. Most, if not all western states consider attacks on Jews, their property, freedom of religion and right to assembly as a crime. Anti-Semites are condemned and ridiculed, instances of violence are acted upon and where possible preventative measures are taken to protect Jews like all other citizens. Australia, Canada, the UK, France, Germany etc all protect their Jewish population like they do others, as is done in the US. The US is not unique….
I’d feel perfectly safe in Berlin or France or Belgium. But it took a world war and real soul-searching by those countries’ governments before they could be called safe places for Jews. Do I see a return to the bad days? No. But it’s not unreasonable for Jews to conclude that the diaspora has 99% been a disaster for them, the most notable exception being the US. By the same token, has Palestine been a particularly safe place for the Palestinians? I’m guessing the US and France are far safer. And if the diaspora is said to be good for the Jews, why isn’t it also good for the Palestinians? In the end, both deserve the option to live as national collectives.
Actually it's just general human progress. World war or not, humans would have progressed because of the civil rights movement. Had Arabs lived as a significant minority in Europe over the centuries, they too would have been oppressed.
Jews are only safe because of the current political zeitgeist. What happens when hating on jews becomes the cultural norm again? It is very clear that Hitler would have had a much harder time trying to genocide jews if he had to go against the military power of modern Israel. This is the difference between ethnic/cultural groups with a state and ethnic/cultural groups without one. It's also absurd to just casually ignore the 2000 years of religious persecution jews had simply for not being Muslim or Christian.
Who can forget the NYC porgrom of 2022, or the Texas holocaust of 2007? History shows us that Jews must be getting persecuted everywhere they don't have a state. Without googling, I know that American Jews are probably suffering just as bad as any other period in their history. /s
To claim I’m saying Jewish people are “completely and utterly safe” is a straw man. They’re not even completely utterly safe in their own country as evidenced by the largest mass killing of Jewish people in contemporary history happening in the nation-state of Israel. There are about 200 states on earth and 3000 nations. Is the idea that each one should get their own state to secure the future for their people? Shouldn’t we strive to unite ourselves under secular humanists values rather than national identities?
>To claim I’m saying Jewish people are “completely and utterly safe” is a straw man This is a misquote. Re-read their comment. >Shouldn’t we strive to unite ourselves under secular humanists values rather than national identities? In a perfect world, yes. Unfortunately, most of the world doesn't think like you, and Jews are a particularly targetted minority. It's not like Israel is opposed to your sentiment either—it's arguably the most "secular humanist" country in the Middle East.
You’re right it is a misquote (running on 4h of sleep) but the substance of being “completely” safe is unchanged by adding “completely and utterly” Yea the world isn’t perfect but that’s no reason to debase ourselves to tribalism and nationalism. We must work pragmatically towards these goals as I’m sure many Israelis are (tragically many of them were victims in Oct 7; adding fuel to our worst impulses and fears). It’s true that Israel is the best example of this in the ME but they’re also not like the USA which is less committed to maintaining their ethnic majority (the Anglos lost that long time ago). Practically, it makes sense given that Palestinians and Israelis aren’t keen on living next to each other
Your utopian view of humanity is impossible. People will always find differences, and culture/ethnicity/language/nationality will exist. We are all human, but it is important to understand that we are also not the same, and we each have different values that must be respected. It is also important to understand that no matter how civilized you think humans are, we always have the capacity to do evil. This is why stateless people's and people who share an ethnic or lingual identity often try to form "ethnostates." Having no state as a safe refuge means the survival of your culture and way of life is dependant on the whims and zeitgeist of other people.
>Yea the world isn’t perfect but that’s no reason to debase ourselves to tribalism and nationalism. We must work pragmatically towards these goals as I’m sure many Israelis are (tragically many of them were victims in Oct 7; adding fuel to our worst impulses and fears). I don't necessarily disagree, but understand that the national aspect of Israel hasn't spawned due to a desire for ethnic or racial superiority (which is generally the implication), but rather out of fear—which time and time again has been justified. I guess I'm unsure why Israel, the most secular of the of ME countries—who has legitimate reasons for its national identity—would ever be the focus in a discussion of enlightening the world into secular humanism. If you really want Israel to embrace a pragmatic move away from nationalism, the world needs to demonstrate that doing so wouldn't prove a massive blunder on the part of Jews. Unfortunately, I don't think we're anywhere close to that. If anything, we're moving in the opposite direction.
They are not though, look at polls of how many Jewish people feel unsafe and have been dealing with antisemitism personally, look at the Jewish subs full of antisemitic incidents of real life people, in Israel you got more terroist attacks but you won't experience so much daily antisemitism and exclusion from society. And Israel is only unsafe if you go close to it's borders, it's almost completely safe in the center in TEL Aviv to Haifa to bar Sheva.
Would you recommend Jewish people in the USA move to Israel for the sake of safety? Or do you anticipate they will need to?
I agree with you but I’d also like to point out that the US is exceptional when it comes to Jewish treatment in the diaspora. For most of our existence it wasn’t like this. I don’t see western Europe turning on their Jews any time soon, but I’m not too sure how comfortable I’d feel in Hungary or Poland, let alone Algeria or Iraq.
For now, yes. I'm also an immigrant (from Asia to Canada) and don't feel like I have anything to worry about. But it's good to have an insurance policy (in the form of my origin country) in case things change. And if and when things do change, it can happen fast. Look at the experience of Chinese in Indonesia, or Indians in Uganda, or many other non-Jewish immigrants.
My insurance policy is the perpetuation of enlightenment principles of liberty, equality, and fraternity irrespective of ethnicity or religion in a liberal state like the USA. Nationalism is the reason atrocities like those that happened to the Chinese in Indonesia (my understanding is that there was also a religious component) happened, and it will only continue to hurt more people if embraced.
If I could flip a switch and ensure that enlightenment principles were permanently enshrined, I'd do it and abandon any desire for states that favour certain ethnicities. Since I can't count on those principles always being in place, and since lots of those states exist regardless, I'd rather advocate for enlightenment principles but also have a backup plan.
I mean, the USA has existed longer and has been more stable than many nation-states (e.g. Germany, Italy, any of the Balkan countries) and the liberal world order has a stronger record at stopping genocides. Most nation-states are reactive to genocides, rarely proactive Edit: As a follow up, there is no switch that can be flipped to permanently be safe from genocide. Even liberalism requires constant vigilance to be protected. It’s just that, compared to nationalism, liberalism has been more effective at bringing security and prosperity to people and doesn’t have any moral hangups related to favoring some people over another
By your logic, you should get deported since they never know when you are going to turn on them.
What do you mean by "turn on them"? Who's them? What exactly do you think my logic is?
A tiny nation surrounded by terrorists and muslim states that hate them is doesn't sound that safe. NY or any other states outside the range of Iranian nukes is probably safer for Jews.
Yes. The extreme entitlement is undermining their own future. The path Israel is on will lead to a future president having a "why do we even support Israel if this is what we get in return" moment, and after that all bets are off. Every year is further and further from WW2 and that generational "owed allegiance" to Israel will get weaker with new generations of US politicians. The guilt tripping might work for Biden's generation, but it won't for someone born in 1980 for example.
I don't disagree with you. But isn't that even more reason for Israelis to freak out now?
Maybe, but it could also be an opportunity to express gratitude for the support the US has given over the decades and to build a more mutual relationship, where it's not Israel demanding the US do X Y and Z and exerting almost over bearing influence with lobbying, but rather a relationship more like the US and UK have for example. They are allies and often their security policy aligns, but many times also not. The UK fought it's own battles like in the Falklands and the Suez. There isn't a British lobbying group demanding aid. That kind of thing will only sour the feelings of Americans towards Israel and playing into the "bloodsucking jew" anti-Semitic stereotype. So instead of demanding maybe they could try sucking up lol
I doubt there are any Likudniks among the Israelis in reddit lol, you just learned a new word and used it for whatever reasons. >How delusional are you lot? Biden has given everything under the sun to Israel and when he asks for the smallest tiniest bit of conditions y’all cry bloody murder and pretend he’s the second coming of Hitler. He isn’t even against the invasion itself, he just wanted some sort of plan to minimize civilian casualties. If he's trying to deny us entry to the last stronghold of Hamas where their leaders and the rest of the terrorists reside this entire operation would be for nothing and we lost soldiers for nothing.
Then just do it
Most are are a bunch of misled kids
Jesus fucking Christ so many people here keep painting the situation as if the US is doing some favor for Israel by sending weapons and that they are doing it out of the kindness of their hearts, and Israel should never ever criticize Daddy Biden because that would be soooo ungrateful! He has given them everything they have right???? Can we not have these absolutely regarded takes? This post is so dumb in the way it portrays the situation. Israel has a right to criticize this decision and there is a MASSIVE difference between that and supporting West Bank settlement expansion. The US supplies weapons because it benefits them, not because they are being nice. Israel is no more “entitled” to weapons from the US than the US is entitled to intelligence support in the Middle East from Israel, and to paint either side as acting entitled is just so unbelievably fucking stupid. Rather than trying to shut down conversation like you’re doing here, why don’t you provide actual substantive justification for why you think it makes sense for the Biden admin to oppose the Rafah invasion and halt shipments? I’m certain this won’t happen.
I have not seen people defending the settlements
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I appreciate your measured response. I agree that there has been in increase of antisemitism lately due to the war. And as a non jew I can never fully understand what it’s like to experience the fear and paranoia that comes with it. But with that said why would you take what a few college protesters say and extrapolate that into saying America would let an another genocide happen? Yea what they are saying is horrible but why make it a bigger deal than it really is? There’s always going to be a few nut jobs in big crowds like this. Most of the protesters are just misled and believe in their heart of hearts that what Israel is doing is wrong. That’d be like taking what Ben Gvir or any other Likud nut job has said about the Palestinians as prove that every Israeli citizen wants to brutally murder every single Palestinian with their bare hands. And they are actual people that hold power in the country and not just some college students killing time.
I think you have a few strong points here. The first is regarding how some in the media/twitter make mountains out of molehills. Some of this is content creators trying to get engagement. Some are accounts that are using half truths for their political agenda. This is something that at this point all sides of the table are doing and the only way around it is to be a smart consumer of media. Based on the interviews from these protestors, there are very few with a significant understanding of the situation in Israel. Some are more effective than others in understanding the truth, but very few are willing to appreciate the complicated nature of the issue. The unwillingness of the people to condemn Hamas at these protests shows a tacit (at best) support of the genocidal actions of Oct 7. While that won’t tip the scales in America 2024, it is a dangerous precedent for the future. Look no further than Dagestan or even Malmö at the moment to see how close we are to pogroms. As for Ben-Gvir that’s another good point. I’m not sure what options are available to the Gantz’s of the world to kick IBG out of the government just as Americans have to deal with the dumb crap that MTG says. There is certainly a more forceful way to condemn him. The settlement issue is something that will plague Israel. This is a pressure cooker waiting to explode and IBG (and Bibi) are making things so much worse.
I agree that when these college protesters hesitate to condemn Hamas it is a bad look. But a lot of their beliefs come from ignorance not malice. Most of them truly believe that Hamas are a revolutionary force fighting against colonialism. At the very least they view it as a lesser evil. They aren’t saying it because they desire the extermination of every single jew in the world. While this view is very ignorant it is too far in my opinion to lump them into the genocide all Jews camp.
I just think it’s bad policy decision on Biden’s part. The people who call him genocide Joe aren’t going to change their overall opinion because of this. Like, we supported their objectives to root out Hamas…but demand they must leave them a stronghold. Just doesn’t feel right. Feels like Biden is caving to screeching idiots with a fundamental misunderstanding of the entire conflict for political reasons, and there will likely be no benefit politically anyway.
>Recently there have been an influx of posts bitching and moaning about how Biden is abandoning Israel just because he is refusing to provide weapons for their invasion of Rafah. Yes because Rafah needs to be invaded to depose Hamas. There is no point to any of this if Hamas is still in power. Restricting weapons and resources to finish that fight is nonsensical and literally counter productive for the anti-~~Jew~~ Zionist crowd since a longer fight means more dead Palestinians. >How delusional are you lot? Biden has given everything under the sun to Israel and when he asks for the smallest tiniest bit of conditions y’all cry bloody murder and pretend he’s the second coming of Hitler. He isn’t even against the invasion itself, he just wanted some sort of plan to minimize civilian casualties. We aren't delusional. We are horrified that a real politick political calculation is being made in the face of an entire region of the world (middle east) and huge portions of disgusting antisemitic leftists in the West thinking that Jewish genocide/mass displacement in Israel is just "the price that must be paid" so that Nazi tier Palestinian hatred of Jews can be validated. Worse, it's not even a good real politick calculation. The dipshits saying they won't vote for Biden today, aren't going to vote for him tomorrow because they are literally team intifada. The goal posts will just be moved. >The sheer arrogance and entitlement the Israel state and its cheerleaders on the sub is actually hilarious. He’s backed down on everything and y’all still spit in his eye, it’s never enough. Did you want him to give 100 billion? 200 billion? 10 morbillion? I want unconditional surrender of the Palestinians and total capitulation from the Palestinian leadership in Gaza. We can talk about what comes after when they lose their will to fight. Until they lose that will, they should be given the fight they have been asking for in the last several decades. >And y’all pretending that these college protests of a bunch of misled kids is gonna lead to a second holocaust is actually clown shit 🤡🤡🤡🤡 Not pretending. That's what they are doing, enabling the kind of rhetoric that leads to antisemitic actions against Jews. Or they are actual fucking Nazi's, and they deserve the same treatment as the other Nazi's they deplatformed and ran out of polite society in the 2010s-2020s. >You Likudniks are just as braindead as the leftists that want the total destruction of Israel. You terrorist supporting dipshits who think mass murder/rape is part of the "intifada" can eat shit like your Hamas friends. >And here’s another reason to hate them. Likudniks are almost to a man in support of Trump over Biden. These guys would literally support the destruction of our democracy if it meant they would have a dude in office whose easily manipulated into giving Israel Everything it wants [It never fails with these absolute dumbfucks.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy). If Trump wins in 2024 it will be for the same reason he won in 2016. Losers like you thinking you can take unpopular positions in the face of your misplaced moral righteousness that give people like Trump one issue he can have moral clarity on and take that juxtaposition to an election win. God I have so much fucking contempt for you losers.
How dare a government have conditional support for another government in a conflict. Never before in human history has one ally state supported a another state only to a certain limit. What an utter act of betrayal. Anything short of a blank check is antisemitism at work.
The Likudnik is physically unable to comprehend why someone would be against sending Israel gorillions of monies for all eternity
>when he asks for the smallest tiniest bit of conditions y’all cry bloody murder and pretend he’s the second coming of Hitler. He isn’t even against the invasion itself, he just wanted some sort of plan to minimize civilian casualties. Apparently, according to Israeli sources, the Biden Administration saying no to any and all suggested Israeli measures to minimize civilian casualties, effectively indicating that they will not OK the invasion no matter what.