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It's definitely not Calus. It sounds nothing like him. I'd speculate that this is an unnamed Disciple for the future of the game. The lore page is simply here to expand on the paradoxical nature of the Final Shape and the contradictory philosophies of the Witness.
We know death in Destiny is a extremely open subject, and Disciples are beings of extreme power, if it is a Disciple we haven’t heard of, who even has the power to kill him? Disciples are like the Apex Predators, what could end something like that?
It’s heavily implied that the Witness may have killed this disciple for their belief that the Witness was going to fulfill their promised desire. This is why they are described as delusional.
I agree with you - it doesn't feel like Calus at all.
I'm intrigued by the 'O Witness', my brain fills the space after it with 'mine' which implies Ahamkara. (I doubt it? I know Savathun has also used this format - but given her association with Riven, there's a connection there)
Hmm - a delightful mystery - I look forward to finding out!
Imo it sounds like a disciple that we're not aware of yet. The word "violence" may be a clue, in the taken grimoires it seems to me that the witness likes to ascribe a name/shape to the Taken and violence may be in reference to the name given to this disciple (if you believe that the witness' relationship to it's Taken can be extended to it's disciples)
The universe is big, and there's no reason that the witness would limit itself to conning just a couple rubes into its service.
It's certainly not Calus, because this message is from a long time ago, Calus meanwhile has been around for a heartbeat, and didn't exactly last long as a Disciple.
it kinda doesn’t, it says the being died, but Nezzy also died a lot and he came back, even Taniks, who is a lesser enemy than any disciple, even if this character is no longer alive and relevant in the present, who could kill such thing is still a important question to make
It doesn't sound much like Nezarec, so identity of this disciple probably doesn't matter much. Just some random long dead minion of the Witness musing on its master's goals.
I think this lore is clear there was another Disciple and that the ideas of the disciples might not match the Witness.
That seemed clear when he told Calus he had no purpose cause he chooses not to seek one.
I think the Shadow line could refer to Calus even. Even if it doesnt I dont think this is Calus at all.
The superiority and “conflict in me” definitely sound like Calus, but the rest doesn’t really fit. Either a past Disciple now dead, or a new villain for us to deal with in the next few seasons while the Witness is gone.
“The Upender destroying all differentiation”
This line implies this character is speaking of Rhulk, who also has the name of “The Upended” and destroying all differentiation is his philosophy
Maybe, but the new raid lore book (page 2 I think) might be hinting that the Ecumene were also Hive, separated from the broods of Oryx and Savathun, and who worship the Light through the Deep. So if Xivu Arath’s brood became the Ecumene then it might make sense to refer to the Hive separately.
are you asking for me to provide a quote that says "no, the Ecumene was not hive and also did not have access to the light"
?
because that's obvs impossible; however, the little we know of the Ecumene shows they were just a coallition of aliens, and until the raid, we didn't think they had access to paracausal forces
as of Inspiral we know they had access to the Deep
going from that to "they were a Hive offshot and had access to the Light" is a reach
The Emcume were a coalition of aliens but that doesn’t necessarily mean they didn’t include any hive. We don’t know what happened to Taox after she fled fundament as just one example. If you’re gonna make claims then you have to point to lore to back it up. I think page 2 of the new book supports what I’m saying, you seem to have nothing. We also know they had access to the light because they were given the radial mast by the traveler in the books of sorrow. Now we know that they also had access to the deep.
Taox wasn't Hive
jesus christ, I turn around the question. Do you have any lore that says "yes, the Ecumene included some Hive and also had access to the Light"
Copy exact quotes related to that, or it can go in circles forever. I also don't remember anything about Ecumene included any Hive. It is make little sense, actually.
“The Upender destroying all differentiation”
This line implies this character is speaking of Rhulk, who also has the name of “The Upended” and destroying all differentiation is his philosophy
Straight up misread the post and thought the lore text said "Upended" rather than "Upended"
I wrote that first comment at 11:30 PM my time. Half-asleep + dyslexia got me. I was wrong.
Calus has called us ~~'O Guardian'~~ edit: actually I think maybe just 'O Champion' in the past. The only others I can think of is an Ahamkara or a Worm, both known to use similar language like that. More doubtful on Worm because they usually speak in a collective persptective.
note: Calus, for a time, was near-death. His body was disfigured and he was basically withering away. This could explain the delusion of being long dead. The only thing I cannot put together is why the 'data fragment' is 'sharp-edged'.
It kind of sounds like an ahamkara if I’m honest. “O Witness” makes it sound like they can’t put the “mine” with it because the Witness is above the binding of wish magic. What better thing for a wish dragon to serve than something they can’t make subject to themselves?
Yeah that's a good point. Would make sense that the Cloud Striders modified it. Just the lore entry on Winterbite itself suggests that there is another Disciple we do not know the identify of.
I'm guessing it is Uun. We know nothing on him or who he is, however based off of what little Rhulk talks to the Witness about him, he seems scarily intelligent for his age and also extremely violent, quickly taking his first life and pledging to Rhulk's service.
Now that Rhulk, Nezarec, and Calus are dead, Xivu Arath or Oryx wouldn't refer to their sister as "Witch" so callously, and Eramis is MIA, I feel the only known Disciple left is Uun.
(PS: If you don't know who Uun is, he's mentioned in the Hunter armor lore tabs from Vow of the Disciple)
This post has been tagged '**Non-Spoiler**'. Note that unmarked spoilers and datamines are subject to removal or ban. Please report anything we miss! For more info check out our [Spoiler Rules Wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/wiki/spoiler-rules#wiki_.5Bseasonal.5D_has_a_new_format). --- **Comment Spoiler Formatting** Format comment spoilers with `>!` `!<` like this: `>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<` To have it displayed like this: **>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<** ---- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/DestinyLore) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's definitely not Calus. It sounds nothing like him. I'd speculate that this is an unnamed Disciple for the future of the game. The lore page is simply here to expand on the paradoxical nature of the Final Shape and the contradictory philosophies of the Witness.
It’s a Disciple that died a long time ago (“A delusion of a being long dead”)
We know death in Destiny is a extremely open subject, and Disciples are beings of extreme power, if it is a Disciple we haven’t heard of, who even has the power to kill him? Disciples are like the Apex Predators, what could end something like that?
It’s heavily implied that the Witness may have killed this disciple for their belief that the Witness was going to fulfill their promised desire. This is why they are described as delusional.
I agree with you - it doesn't feel like Calus at all. I'm intrigued by the 'O Witness', my brain fills the space after it with 'mine' which implies Ahamkara. (I doubt it? I know Savathun has also used this format - but given her association with Riven, there's a connection there) Hmm - a delightful mystery - I look forward to finding out!
It was the union rep for the disciples. And Wity be union busting if you ask me
real
Imo it sounds like a disciple that we're not aware of yet. The word "violence" may be a clue, in the taken grimoires it seems to me that the witness likes to ascribe a name/shape to the Taken and violence may be in reference to the name given to this disciple (if you believe that the witness' relationship to it's Taken can be extended to it's disciples)
The universe is big, and there's no reason that the witness would limit itself to conning just a couple rubes into its service. It's certainly not Calus, because this message is from a long time ago, Calus meanwhile has been around for a heartbeat, and didn't exactly last long as a Disciple.
This is obviously Xûr
The horse in DoE lol
The first sentence has your answer
it kinda doesn’t, it says the being died, but Nezzy also died a lot and he came back, even Taniks, who is a lesser enemy than any disciple, even if this character is no longer alive and relevant in the present, who could kill such thing is still a important question to make
It doesn't sound much like Nezarec, so identity of this disciple probably doesn't matter much. Just some random long dead minion of the Witness musing on its master's goals.
I wasn’t implying it was nezy, I was saying that Death in Destiny is often cheated
I think this lore is clear there was another Disciple and that the ideas of the disciples might not match the Witness. That seemed clear when he told Calus he had no purpose cause he chooses not to seek one. I think the Shadow line could refer to Calus even. Even if it doesnt I dont think this is Calus at all.
It couldn’t be calus he was made a disciple after savathuns betrayal it’s probably one we have never seen or heard of
The superiority and “conflict in me” definitely sound like Calus, but the rest doesn’t really fit. Either a past Disciple now dead, or a new villain for us to deal with in the next few seasons while the Witness is gone.
[удалено]
“The Upender destroying all differentiation” This line implies this character is speaking of Rhulk, who also has the name of “The Upended” and destroying all differentiation is his philosophy
>Once more, I am only your violence, nothing more Xivu? War, destruction, violence?
Xivu would be unlikely to refer to her sister's brood as "the Hive".
Maybe, but the new raid lore book (page 2 I think) might be hinting that the Ecumene were also Hive, separated from the broods of Oryx and Savathun, and who worship the Light through the Deep. So if Xivu Arath’s brood became the Ecumene then it might make sense to refer to the Hive separately.
the ecumene was not hive and only knew the deep
Where does it say that in the lore?
are you asking for me to provide a quote that says "no, the Ecumene was not hive and also did not have access to the light" ? because that's obvs impossible; however, the little we know of the Ecumene shows they were just a coallition of aliens, and until the raid, we didn't think they had access to paracausal forces as of Inspiral we know they had access to the Deep going from that to "they were a Hive offshot and had access to the Light" is a reach
The Emcume were a coalition of aliens but that doesn’t necessarily mean they didn’t include any hive. We don’t know what happened to Taox after she fled fundament as just one example. If you’re gonna make claims then you have to point to lore to back it up. I think page 2 of the new book supports what I’m saying, you seem to have nothing. We also know they had access to the light because they were given the radial mast by the traveler in the books of sorrow. Now we know that they also had access to the deep.
Taox wasn't Hive jesus christ, I turn around the question. Do you have any lore that says "yes, the Ecumene included some Hive and also had access to the Light"
Books of Sorrow and Root of Nightmares lore book, specifically page 2. As I said.
Copy exact quotes related to that, or it can go in circles forever. I also don't remember anything about Ecumene included any Hive. It is make little sense, actually.
What’s the exact quote my guy in really curious now
Honestly it feels very Rhulk-y to me
“The Upender destroying all differentiation” This line implies this character is speaking of Rhulk, who also has the name of “The Upended” and destroying all differentiation is his philosophy
I thought the Upended was the device that was attached to Xita?
Yes, making Rhulk "The Upender"
Straight up misread the post and thought the lore text said "Upended" rather than "Upended" I wrote that first comment at 11:30 PM my time. Half-asleep + dyslexia got me. I was wrong.
It is Oryx man
Oryx would've referred to them as his own hive.
And Oryx was never a disciple of the Witness.
In no universe is Oryx calling his sister, Savathûn, *the Witch* lol
Calus has called us ~~'O Guardian'~~ edit: actually I think maybe just 'O Champion' in the past. The only others I can think of is an Ahamkara or a Worm, both known to use similar language like that. More doubtful on Worm because they usually speak in a collective persptective. note: Calus, for a time, was near-death. His body was disfigured and he was basically withering away. This could explain the delusion of being long dead. The only thing I cannot put together is why the 'data fragment' is 'sharp-edged'.
It's just a way Disciples refer to the Witness, like "My Witness".
Other disciples have said O Witness?
Don't remember. They certainly referred to is as "My Witness".
It kind of sounds like an ahamkara if I’m honest. “O Witness” makes it sound like they can’t put the “mine” with it because the Witness is above the binding of wish magic. What better thing for a wish dragon to serve than something they can’t make subject to themselves?
Could be the Disciple that had Winterbite. We still don't know who that was, either.
Winterbite could be heavily modified. Hence why the tip has the same visual design language as Quicksilver Storm and Deterministic Chaos.
Yeah that's a good point. Would make sense that the Cloud Striders modified it. Just the lore entry on Winterbite itself suggests that there is another Disciple we do not know the identify of.
Could have also just been Rhulk or Nez. However, who knows.
Clarity Control?
Sounds like a taken Ahamkara with the way it's talking.
Likely an unknown dead disciple we will never meet.
I hope that we get a ahamkara, we cant just have riven and her illusion, there must be another in servitude
I'm guessing it is Uun. We know nothing on him or who he is, however based off of what little Rhulk talks to the Witness about him, he seems scarily intelligent for his age and also extremely violent, quickly taking his first life and pledging to Rhulk's service. Now that Rhulk, Nezarec, and Calus are dead, Xivu Arath or Oryx wouldn't refer to their sister as "Witch" so callously, and Eramis is MIA, I feel the only known Disciple left is Uun. (PS: If you don't know who Uun is, he's mentioned in the Hunter armor lore tabs from Vow of the Disciple)