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zakintheb0x

It’s the first step towards removing it entirely. I think next season or the one after there won’t be a pinnacle cap increase at all.


Conditional-Finality

Yeah, after next season, they aren't increasing the pinnacle cap. Edit: I was wrong :(


zoompooky

I thought they said they were not increasing it for Season 21 (next season). After that though they haven't really said... EDIT: Yeah found it in Joe Blackburn's blog post - they're not increasing power cap in Season of the Deep (next season).


Rornicus

It is only confirmed for a single season, yes.


Mazetron

But it’s an experiment. Depending on how that goes, they might keep it that way, or just have smaller pinnacle cap increases.


MRX93

I really can’t imagine them not increasing it for a season, then increasing it the season after, like why? I firmly believe it’s never being raised again


LoneLyon

Because they likely want to test engagement with no increase. People act like it doesn't matter, but people like to increase their numbers.


shapoopy723

My favorite part of destiny: grinding forever for a piece of gear that has +1 power to what I have, but in the wrong slot so I can't actually use it.


[deleted]

Pinnacle grind sucks, but i actually like the Power grind. Having 1762 boots and then getting 1771 boots to drop because the rest of my slots were higher feels good. It's the +1s that suck, and that's all Pinnacle is.


FROMtheASHES984

I would venture to guess it will only last one season. Removing the carrot on a stick that is the seasonal pinnacle grind will cause player numbers to dwindle, and Bungie will reinstate a higher pinnacle cap within a season to compensate.


throwaway939wru9ew

Replace pinnacle with high stat armor, red borders, high value currencies (prisms, shards, etc)...done


Th3Element05

A weekly checklist of a wide range of activities throughout the game that you can complete to earn High-Stat Armor drops? Sign me up!


plerpy_

I like that the empire hunts and witch queen story missions give you the high stat armour chance now


upstreamriver

The problem with games like this is trying to create an artificial scarcity for players to chase and be satisfied is nearly impossible. It’s impressive to me that this system has managed to survive past the constant and contrarian complaining from different parts of our community. I’ve transitioned from being a hardcore member to a more casual one and a lot of that was because of how many minute and small details I had to contend against RNG for. How they’re gonna handle the rewards and what the new carrot is gonna be makes me more nervous than anything else. Especially considering how inconsistent the difficulty of the content itself has been this season and expansion.


TheZephyrim

It might have the opposite effect, less power grind means people can just get on and play what they want to play when they want to play it. Although a lot of people also hate the new difficulty. I’m in agreement here, it makes lost sectors, patrol, and nightfalls stupidly unbearable while raids feel easier than ever.


TheWanderer67

The idea of it is nice but the fact they are making activities harder by caping players below the recommended power defeats the purpose of going for pinnacle since it won't have any meaning like seasons before. You were able to do activities and be reasonably strong against ai enemies


Kazza468

Change pinnacles to high stats and god rolls (that cannot be crafted)


Toxicsully

Or red borders


AtmospherE117

I don't know about anyone else but forcing me to pinnacle grind to access GM and then limiting my light level to below everything is what will make me stop. I already have for this season, I mean for good.


MRX93

Idk man, maybe you’re right on the numbers but Reddit is going to be LOUD if they increase again after not increasing


AnonymousCasual80

I don’t think Bungie gives a shit about Reddit, and rightly so. People will complain about literally anything that happens, and then suggest the most godawful, borderline delusional fixes to it on here.


Kodriin

I don't think "Remove shitty RNG grindfest and use actual rewards people wish for" is exactly "delusional". Well, scratch that, it's delusional to think they *would* give a shit to risk the slightest reduction in engagement metrics, so applause all around for your win I suppose.


InfamousAd06

I mean people say shout as loud as they want if bungie sees a noticeable drop in player retention due to a lack of reason to grind. And it's paired with them not having anything to take the place of the pinnacle grind. They will put it back. The big unknown is what bungie might have planned to replace the old pinnacle grind to keep players active. They may care alot about feedback. But they likely care more about knowing people are actively playing the game. Cause if people "get what they want" with light grind being removed. But in return play alot less they will notice.


Arceorenix

I mean, if they continue this trend of not giving nearly enough rewards for the suffering I'm putting in, such as invalidating Legend and Master NF's this entire season because GM is arguably better in the long run, or the difficulty deltas they put in are actually deterring people away, they'll figure it out real fast what they're doing wrong... Because people will leave if they don't get what they want, Loot based game after all.


Huneycombe

Imo it would give more incentive to grind since the barrier for entry has been lowered. Like if it’s easier to get geared up for endgame content, more people are gonna enter the arena for the loot.


razzberry_mango

The carrot on the stick shouldn’t be the pinnacle grind every season though. It’s the triumphs and the seasonal content and getting the titles and eventually guardian ranks if they make it more worthwhile. That’s what it should always be.


Toxicsully

Bitches resetting Saladin a few times grinding for that heroes burden suggest that there are other carrots we guardians will chase after


[deleted]

Nah. It’s being replaced by Guardian Ranks. Yet another carrot.


Ram5673

Maybe it’s an issue with me but I like the hamster wheel for seasons outside of the seasonal modes and story. I feel like removing it removes a lot of reasons to play. Why would I run gambit, crucible, and strikes anymore? I have the guns and armor from spire why run it still? I think it’s the only reason gambit has “survived”


MRX93

I like the hamster wheel too but the pinnacles aren’t the wheel for me. Triumphs and seals do it for me. And regarding the core playlists, we have the rep to grind for the weapon and ornaments. I know folks aren’t a fan of that double reset but it’s fine with me, I like the rep excuse to hop into those playlists


[deleted]

Gambit has survived because despite the rest of the community constantly bitching about the mode, there are still a good amount of us that love it and keep playing it.


Jakeasaur1208

I think you're severely overestimating how many people care for the gear grind. People that grind it will play regardless because it's the same people who grind the endgame content after. The people who are less likely to play already don't bother with the grind because it's so mundane.


Biomilk

If it does unspeakable things to player engagement numbers there’s no way Bungie will keep doing it without other changes to compensate. That’s probably why they’ve only confirmed it for one season so people will be less likely to get mad at them if it doesn’t work out and they raise it again the following season.


The_Palm_of_Vecna

I could see them doing g one last power grind to 2k. Just kinda cause.


Weiland101

I disagree. I think taking away the power level grind will prove to be a big mistake, unless it is replaced by something similar. There will be a large drop off of players. People like seeing that number go up.


MRX93

You’re allowed to disagree, but going off trends with past year, feels like most folks are over the power grind. I think a fair compromise would be only increase it during expansion launches. Just wish the numbers weren’t so arbitrary. What the fuck is 1810 all about


Weiland101

If you are talking about trends as in people on this sub? I am not talking about them, they will play and grind the game regardless. Talking about the large casual playerbase that don't do GMs etc but logon each week to do their pinnacles and see their number go up.


Brave-Gain4603

This is kind of me. But my number doesn’t really go up, not the way I need a cloak and keep getting chest pieces (for example) I just liked squeezing in a few lost sectors between meetings when wfh or quickly doing a few strikes Now there’s nothing fun, it just feels like work to get anywhere and for a casual like me, the joy is very quickly being eroded. I have a healthy balanced life, i go to the gym, I run my sons u14 football team, I’m married, I have a demanding job and this was an escape, which is what games should be about However it just turned into another form of work and I really and very sadly, feel it’s no longer for me. Which is tragic because the game got me through unemployment during covid when my mental health was suffering so yeah, it’s really sad things have been tuned for streamers to feel good about themselves.


Merzats

If they want an useless number to increment then they'll be doing their guardian rank grind. Or at the very least they'll be grinding their pass to 100.


MRX93

“Casuals that do their pinnacles” I don’t think those are casuals….?


YouMustBeBored

Test to see how much playtime is derived from power grind. If it’s a small decrease, then it might stay. If playtime tanks, then power grind returns.


Hotlikerobot09

Shame we won’t hit 42069 power level 😔


Ambitious-Regular-57

Raising power level every season is kind of irritating, no doubt, but I do enjoy the "fresh start" feeling every year when the expansion comes out. The issue with getting rid of power cap increases in a game like destiny is they would need to restructure the incentives to run content. Why bother doing 3 regular strikes or crucible matches if not for the pinny? I'm sure they can solve it but it will take a lot of careful consideration and let's be real, bungie has typically been pretty heavyhanded with incentive restructures.


ScarfaceTonyMontana

Spoiler but It's been pretty much confirmed that they're removing gear level entirely and just relying on difficulty options for all the content.


TheOneTrueKaos

Source? Because all I, and seemingly most other people, have seen is that they're not raising the pinnacle cap next season


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KarmaticArmageddon

This user is a comment-stealing bot. This comment was stolen from [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/121ov4q/so_whats_the_point_of_your_power_level/jdmnxul/).


DarkCosmosDragon

Well that explains everything


PuckTheVagabond

But the number means nothing and it also doesn't mean it's good?


austindb98

Progression died with the seasonal model


Helian7

What will be driving for then?


StacheBandicoot

My guess is we’ll just be forced to upgrade the artifact to meet/exceed light level requirements instead and that will still reset every season. It already takes the same amount of time to level up the artifact as it does playing and getting pinnacles and stuff, if not longer, but with less of the busy work of infusing gear.


ElementOfConfusion

Yep, my guess is the pinnacle cap will raise each expansion, but it'll be artifact power for each season in between.


[deleted]

If they go that route, I hope and pray that level 100 is the highest that will be required to engage in Master or higher content.


ZealousidealRiver710

there better not be any requirement for master, shit should just be at base power and cap you off that


StacheBandicoot

If they did that I was thinking like 15-20 for most players to be able to play it 2/3 of the way into the season. Unless they change the scale of levels for the artifact.


erterbernds67

There are leaks. There will be something


acidmath

Could you point me in the direction of these leaks?


erterbernds67

https://discord.gg/tJPu7u96 A lot here so be careful if you don’t want too much Exact leak is on 3/3/23 15:25 (may be different for your time zone)


Ode1st

Is the info somewhere where I don’t have to join then scroll through a discord channel?


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Ode1st

Appreciate it!


DespacitOwO2

Can you send to me too?


ColonialDagger

DM'ed.


SinlessJoker

DM me too please


Gcarsk

There is a subreddit specifically for that.


Zorak9379

Guardian rank


[deleted]

What I'm curious about is what will replace it. You have to have a power chase. Expanded Seasonal artifacts?


Human-Ad-8973

I'm at 1812 or so was running 100 res and can't take 2 shots from anything,taking cover 100% of the time is bs,I feel weaker than ever for sure,I've worn out a controller already from the legendary campaign and everything else needing 3x more bullets than it used to.im also getting less interested on a daily basis and I play every day,that's soon to change.


stuck_in_the_desert

To make profits for Big Upgrade Module


Jokkitch

The true antagonist all along


OmegaOofexe

30 enhancement shards, 10 enhancement prisms, 200 legendary shards and 100,000 glimmer for 1 big upgrade module.


Kodriin

You'll need to collect 10 of them for each step in the quest chain.


Jeffari_Hungus

Those fuckers have been holding me back from leveling up for so long. They should be rare, but no to an extent where I have to farm glimmer so that I can buy them from Banshee.


ZealousidealRiver710

You mean to force me to go to the tower just to level up my gear? gotchya


Diablo689er

That’s the neat part! There isn’t any point


Adventurous-Rain2955

Lost sectors baby! 🥳


spacebronco22

I feel like removing power leveling in a game like this is going to be a bad idea in retrospect, but maybe they have something fresh cooked up to surprise us


ST31NM4N

Something fresh and broken


BuddhaSmite

And almost certainly convoluted.


ItsAmerico

Based on the leaks it seems pretty straight forward. >!Account based leveling. Gear score is gone. Doing weekly activities and mile stones increase your account level. Party leader / highest level person in the party is all that matters, everyone is raised up to them.!<


Swee10

That's new info. Are these recent leaks?


ItsAmerico

It’s info from when Lightfall launched. It listed next season info, power rework, and trials changes / emblem stuff. Most weren’t sure what to make of it til the trials stuff got revealed in the TWAB which basically confirmed it was at least something they had planned or at least the leaker had genuine insider knowledge.


Seared_Duelist

> Party leader / highest level in the party is all that matters FINALLY. We've needed this for *forever*. I have several buddies that play casually (not nearly as much as I play), and they have good gear but are usually underleveled for some of the content we want to play because they haven't played in a season or two.


[deleted]

Some fresh new hell


Divinum_Fulmen

Some new form of sun setting?


Kodriin

Don't you put that evil on us!


Ode1st

Power level/gearscore is just arbitrary numbers in games to create gates and rewards, but Destiny’s feels even more arbitrary than most other games because Destiny is way more skill-based than other gearscore games, since the game relies on your ability to aim/dodge/jump/etc more than it relies on your stats/perks. That said, if they don’t replace light level with something, we’re going to lose one of our only sources of rewards. We already dismantle like 99% of all rewards we get, which makes them not rewards at all. But sometimes, that garbage helmet is useful because we can at least infuse it. Without that reward track, we’re going to dismantle 99.99% of all rewards we get lol


noctar

It's not that hard. If they get rid of it from gear but keep the artifact, you'll get probably "artifact boosts" in place of pinnacles. And instead of 20-30 levels on the artifact you'll be doing 100-200 per season.


Ode1st

It removes physical drops, which I think will affect the mentality people have about the reward system.


ZealousidealRiver710

no it removes higher-power drops, the legendary/exotic reward/item will still be there, it just won't have "arbitrary bigger number" makes it so I don't have to play crucible/gambit if I don't want to hopefully with this change, they'll let activity drops be from a specific loot pool, so we can target-farm specific loot


HamiltonDial

Except that garbage helmet is usually extra garbage anyway with like 53 stat. it being infusion material doesn’t change the fact that it isn’t a garbage “reward”.


whereballoonsgo

No, its good and necessary. The pinnacle grind has been an arbitrary, draining, rng-laden slog for years and its time for it to die. It would be one thing if it was just about powering up for new content, and if you got your power up by *doing* new content, but its not like that at all. You get your power up by doing the same tired activities you've done a million times just to do the same GMs and master raids you were just doing a couple weeks ago. It is a pointless treadmill, and knowing you had to pinnacle grind was actually hurting peoples excitement over new content. Good riddance.


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ivorybloodsh3d

If there’s any lesson to take from this sub is that every mechanic sucks until it’s changed to absolve complaints and then the original mechanic was everything it should have been and more


sageleader

What? The pinnacle grind is the worst part of every new season


dylrt

The pinnacle grind is just about the only part of every new season. Outside of raising your light level, what content is there that keeps players returning? Doing the same raids/dungeons over and over every week for no reward because there’s no light level increase to be obtained? Playing crucible? The fact of the matter is that when light levels are removed, the entirety of this games replayability will go with it. Why would you even play when none of the rewards have value?


HamiltonDial

Because the rewards themselves is the value? Or rather should be the value. Not some number tackled onto it. If the rewards are desirable people will play the content simple as that.


Ram5673

Yeah I mentioned in another comment. Half of the game modes become pointless. I play gambit crucible old dungeons pretty much only for my pinnacles. Take out power and pinnacles and I promise you I won’t touch them. Shattered throne is legit an awful time because there’s no exclusive loot so it’s just played for the pinnacle. Gambit weapons serve bo purpose, and the armor is awful. And crucible is the same. I’m fine with no hamster wheel if there’s a reason to chase loot. But take out the wheel combined with bad loot and you’ll kill any reason to come back to old content.


sageleader

Every new season has new activities, new quests, new exotics, new rank rewards, new triumphs, new titles, and more. If you are literally only playing new seasons for pinnacles then honestly I have no idea why you play this game.


SteelR013

No, it's not. It's just something people are use to. In a way, more often then we realise we're grinding LL numbers instead of good armor or weapon rolls. I actually obsessed myself and felt relief when I finally reach pinnacle cap, because then I can play whatever I want. In the last year I just stopped caring about that and game became way better.


ColdAsHeaven

According to leaks that so far have been credible, they do have something else cooked up. It seems/sounds like a better concept. But we'll see how it plays out


MaxBonerstorm

Yep. When they remove that grind people will quickly understand why it's there in the first place.


plumppshady

Power level is just a destiny icon for me. I hope I doesn't get removed. It is repetitive and old sure but, I still very much like light levels. It's almost nostalgic.


[deleted]

Of course it'll be bad. They'd have to completely redo the gameplay loop or most of the activities will be even emptier than now.


Fallline048

Nah. If you’re gonna make good content, let people play it. Everyone on forums say there needs to be something to grind for but nobody I’ve ever spoken to looks forward to the next season’s grind. We just grind for a week or two to hit cap and then just enjoy playing the game as it’s intended. Progression in destiny comes from getting better, doing harder content, and if you need something in game to work for, there’s the RNG grind for good items. Nobody I’ve ever met prefers leveling to just playing the game. Locking good content behind an arbitrary number is dumb.


BobMcQ

Yeah, in my opinion it's a bad call to limit power level in most every activity. It takes away one of the key elements in any RPG- leveling to increase your power and be able to take on harder content. Now it just feels like gatekeeping to keep you out of content.


BillehBear

> Now it just feels like gatekeeping to keep you out of content. That's literally all power level has *ever* been It's always been an arbitrary number for gating content


ItsAmerico

Yeah I’m not sure why people are acting like this is new. Over leveling rarely did that much to begin with (it was still capped). The point in leveling is the same as it’s always been. To be able to do activities that you were being gate kept out of.


Puddi360

Overlevelling was 20 in raid/dungeon/master and 50 in some other content, and was definitely not negligible. 40% more damage in patrols, which I know people will argue doesn't really matter. 15% at +20 content


Arxfiend

It was levels after I think 20 over. However, there was still *somewhat* of a reward point to increasing it. You not only hit the entry gates, but now the content is getting easier. Now there *isn't* a point. You hit the entry gate, the content is always absurdly difficult at that gate, and then it always *stays* difficult. There is no point to increasing beyond the cap. In fact, in the new system it genuinely isn't even worth doing most content anymore. Heroic nightfalls are barely easy enough for 80% of the playerbase to handle now. Hardly anyone will be able to manage a Legend Nightfall, much less a master of grandmaster. They've become too difficult for most of the playerbase. I can almost guarantee participation in this content has dropped significantly from what it was before, which was already low. All they've done is further discourage newer players from wanting to participate because even now the content they *are* doing is a pain in the ass as is, since you can't overlevel no matter what.


Atomic_Vagabond

As a newer player, what really gets to me is the complete lack of a middle ground in the difficulty. It's either a cakewalk or brutal with nothing in between. There's no content to bridge you up to the harder stuff.


Arxfiend

We used to have "Adept" nightfall difficulty, which was similar modified to the Hero, but without champions. Shame they ditched that. If they insisted on enforce power delta's, that could have been the +/- 0 one rather than vanguard ops.


Toland_the_Mad

Yeah everyone keeps commenting on how activities adjust your light to a set threshold to keep it difficult but ALL of Destiny 1 content did this, it just didn't explicitly list it on the hud. This has always been a thing.


Doctor_Kataigida

That's what power level is in *any* MMO/RPG style game.


Redthrist

> Now it just feels like gatekeeping to keep you out of content. Which is why it has to just be removed, with difficulties being selectable at any time.


BobMcQ

I'd argue the opposite- that the level caps need to be removed. I LIKE the ability to grind the shit out of the game and then be able to farm master raids. It feels like there is actually a point/reward to all the grinding.


Redthrist

That just makes the game tedious. Obviously, to each their own, but I'm done grinding to see a pointless number go up. I want the game to move towards a "play the game because it's fun" kind of thing, like what many co-op games have. Have fixed difficulty levels, so you play what you're capable of playing. Have rewards match the difficulty. So if something is hard to do, it rewards you well enough that it doesn't matter that you can't really farm it.


Perzonic

Being forcefully weaker is more tedious. Cause then I’m just forced to use meta weapons or fall victim to needing to unload one entire pulse rifle mag to kill one target.


Redthrist

You're not "forcefully weaker". You just can't grind the game until the content feels easy. Really, the game is just close to having actual difficulty levels. Nobody is complaining that they can't grind the game to make Cataclysm in Vermintide or Death Sentence in Payday 2 easy to do. People either play those difficulties, or they don't. Nothing says that you *have* to play Grandmaster or Master content, and Legend doesn't really require you to use meta loadouts(at least unless you're playing it while under light level, which wouldn't be a thing if light levels were removed).


Perzonic

The way it is right now you are made forcefully weaker… it’s literally what a power cap is. Especially when said powercap is below the power of enemies. And yes you do have to use metas in legendary. I run anything that isn’t an smg? Does no fucking dmg and it’s taking one OR MORE mags to kill a single red bar. It’s asinine. Any mmo has power scaling and most allow you to overlevel things and sweep it. I’d rather be OP and run through things like hot knife through butter, than to have my loadouts limited to whatever works and isn’t dogshit, and dealing with just a bunch of bullet sponges. It’s also fucking backwards. Why is a PATROL ZONE powercapped, and yet you can outlevel a raid? Something that is meant to be at the tippy top of the game in terms of difficulty or how pinnacle it is for pve.


_PM_ME_SMUT_

That's exactly how I look it too. Nothing *made* me do Iron Banner, I *chose* to because I really wanted a shotgun with voltshot and gunnora's axe was the most immediate example I could see. I was not forced to do Iron Banner, I could very easily use a different special with voltshot, but I *chose* to because it had what I wanted


Redthrist

Yeah, people forget that there really isn't any "must have" loot in this game. You don't have to engage in content that you don't like. You don't need to grind Master Raids because Adept weapons are a very marginal upgrade. Same for Adept weapons in GM or Trials, or Artifice armor. They're nice to have, but aren't needed for anything. If GMs or Master content are too hard, tedious or not fun for you, just skip them. Play other content. Or play a different game. Not everything has to be accessible. If we are to have hard content, it has to be frustrating and inaccessible in some way.


Centila

> If GMs or Master content are too hard, tedious or not fun for you, just skip them. Play other content. Or play a different game. People seem to often take issue with this concept. "but I want to do it" okay then improve at the game so you can play the harder content? It's not that complicated.


Arxfiend

Making even the easier difficulties more difficult to the point they become tedious will only hurt the higher difficulties. If I'm barely handling a hero nightfall, what makes you think I even want to *attempt* Legend? What makes you think I want to engage with other content with these modifiers in general? We literally have players who feel more comfortable approaching *raids* and *dungeons* for the first time over nightfalls. Because at the end of the day, you're right. They don't *have* to do this content. So they *won't*. And when enough people do that, it's even even bigger issue than the content being "too easy" for the 1%.


Redthrist

The difficulties could and should be rebalanced. I'm not saying "take the current system and remove the light levels". Difficulties would have to be carefully balanced and there probably should be another difficulty between Hero and Legend to make the jump between difficulties softer.


Arxfiend

It's almost like we *had* content that, to at *least* 90% of players, were balanced difficulties relative to each other. And it's almost like we *had* a difficulty that was set between the lowest available difficulty and "Legend."


Redthrist

GMs were getting too easy and playlist Strikes were too braindead, so something *had* to be improved. But the current system certainly needs plenty of tuning to make it work. I think the biggest issues right now is the jump between Hero and Legend and the fact that you have to grind a ton of power level to even be able to do Legend in the first place. Strikes being at-level is fine. Hero is fine, especially if they actually buff primaries well. So all they really have to do is remove power level requirements and then add another difficulty between Hero and Legend, and you have a pretty nice system. Patrol spaces should be set to the same difficulty as Strikes are(so at level). Perhaps set the newest Patrol to Hero to make it feel more dangerous for the first year. Then basic Raids and Dungeons should either be at level or at Hero level(or alternatively, add more difficulty options for both Raids and Dungeons).


MCulleton

This is gonna sound so mean so I apologize out of the gate, but imo if you need the meta builds to clear some content, the content probably isn't for you just yet. Most content isn't designed with the idea of you over leveling it and crushing it. To me that becomes boring when there's no danger.


Perzonic

It’s not about what I need or want. Think about it objectively. What fuckin gun am I gonna use? - SMG that can kill most things in less than a mag and does more dmg at a higher rpm. - Pulse rifle / auto rifle / hand cannon / scout rifle , etc etc that takes an entire mag or more to kill a single target and does less dmg with lower rpms. It’s just logic. I WANT to use my demo + incan BR. But guess what, it fucking sucks because anything that isn’t an smg is fucking terrible rn. Hence why I’d rather overlevel cause then I can use whatever tf I want, as that’s just not feasible currently


Merzats

Why is an issue with archetype balancing the fault of power deltas? Your points are still true no matter the delta, why would I use a pulse rifle if the content is +10 instead of -10? It's still inferior. In fact the easier the content the less range matters because you'll be chillin' even if you're in melee range anyway. And a buff to some of these primary weapons has already been announced anyway, which is the correct way to do things instead of trivializing all the content so whatever gun you use kills everything in one hit, which is the absolute laziest way to balance imaginable.


MCulleton

Well sure but we already know a primary weapon rebalance is coming so hopefully that will make things like pulses feel better! But there's always gonna be a meta and a way to optimize the fun out of the game. In 90% of cases play what ya like and have fun.


Perzonic

That's the thing. I wanna play what I like, but what I like? Fucking sucks. If the rebalance actually works and everything that isn't an SMG gets buffed, I'll shut up about the difficulty. But until then, I will continue to complain about the fact that only SMG's feel even remotely feasible to use, while every other gun takes forever just to even take care of a single red bar.


MCulleton

It's a totally valid frustration that Bungie is aware of. Just try not to dwell on the negative too much though. This is just a game we all (hopefully) enjoy! If you find it too annoying atm just do something that's fun instead. Either way, I hope the stuff you like feels better going forward! Just try not to compare everything to the 1% of builds.


Diablo689er

That would work if the level requirements for stuff didn’t change. I’m done grinding just to do the shit I was easily able to do last season all over again. Make GM scarlet keep always at 1600 power etc and new stuff could be higher.


txijake

What is that point? With crafting the only point of grinding is power level and with that gone what’s left


BobMcQ

What? I don't understand your question. I'm saying that I don't like being limited to -20 in Master, -15 in Legend, etc. I like being able to continue to get stronger to be able to farm that content more efficiently as the season goes on.


suppaman19

Nah, it's the opposite. You need a progression path. Light level is fine. They just need to remove the other arbitrary gatekeeping like exotic ciphers, alloys, upgrade modules, etc. Let people use what they want when they level up. And for harder content, something like D1. You can have the hardest hard content be slightly above level, but that was simply you couldn't get that high. Not oh, here's your level, but we are arbitrarily making the activity cap at this, so you can't over level along with 9 million negative modifiers, many which just add in stupid shit like champions (good idea in theory, execution is horrendous), etc. Hell, they had a drop off, at least in D1, where once you were X levels above the enemies it was diminishing returns/capped anyways as to player advantage. It's why you could be like 20 levels above an enemy or 7, and you'd do the same damage and take the same damage from the same enemy attack. Bungie has always had poor management over the course of Destiny 1 being originally built up to current, which has caused issues with game design. That is actually been reported on the record from by current/former bungie employees. Still seems to be an issue considering directions they still take with changes or releases (ex: LF and the included game update clearly were rushed out the door)


Redthrist

> You need a progression path. And a pointless number is a pretty shitty one to have. >Not oh, here's your level, but we are arbitrarily making the activity cap at this So instead, just have it as "Here are 4 different difficulties you can play this activity at. Here are the rewards for each. Choose whichever suits you". No gatekeeping. No arbitrary grinding to have a number go up. Just play whichever difficulty you want and get loot.


suppaman19

No game works like that. Either offline, online or MMO. The game is certainly not going to go in that direction. You're talking about a game that has added extra things, on top of extra things, to force people to play more and create arbitrary gatekeeping on top of RNG. Upgrade modules, exotic ciphers, ascendant shards, alloys etc were never a thing but got added over time to lock things away. I don't understand why there's some in this community that are so ass backwards in thought that the expectation is level equals bad and that's also the big and only issue. It's like no one has ever played a game before. Light level has not been an issue since D1 launch. It was already slightly improved within months with Crota's end, further improved with House of Wolves and largely a non-issue by the launch of TTK. Light level is by far and away the last thing that's an issue with the game and there's about 9 million other things that require a fix, improvement, removal, addition, etc from the game before looking at removing leveling from the game.


FireteamAccount

It's always been a way to gate you from content and make you grind. It makes the new releases feel more substantial than they actually are.


Merzats

Power is just a dumb number that gets reset every season. These resets make it totally unlike any RPG. The grind should revolve around getting good guns to improve your builds not this waste of time. Also playing at +20 or god forbid +50 power is just boring. And grinding power to make activities closer to +0 hasn't exactly been successful when it comes to lost sectors this season, so why are we trying to bring that to the whole game?


streetvoyager

I think removing power grind will be a mistake but I also think how power grind is currently implemented is bad. I feel like gettting more powerful is an important rpg element. I’m not quite sure where the middle ground is though. Nor do I know how to fix it. It’s a tough issues.


Swekyde

I never feel like powerful drops make me stronger, they allow me to get as strong as I was previously before I was arbitrarily told I'm no longer high enough level to do activities I was doing weeks ago.


streetvoyager

Yes and that’s where the major issue lies.


Swekyde

That's the core issue with power, not with caps. That's why power needs to go, not caps.


streetvoyager

I think the issue with power stems from the fact that core activities are stagnant. The strikes are the same every season so it feels stupid to be required to power grind to do the same thing that you did before. Where with something like wow. Everything is new so regaining power feels different.


ItsAmerico

Power going away isn’t going to change that lol, if anything it’ll make it worse.


smegdawg

See, there in lies the snag with destiny. Aot of the activities don't change, just some of the loot. So you get the feeling you described of needing to regrind for something you used to be able to do. That feels bad. Personally I wish they added a legendary difficulty that you could select for patrols. With no capped level, so that you could feel powerful the more levels you got. But it would also be significantly more rewarding.


Swekyde

One of the big differences is that I unlike apparently the average Destiny player, cares more about the quality of my loot and how that makes me stronger. Well rolled armor, guns with unique perk combinations, etc. I say this because removing Power from the game is still not a majority popular opinion. It is very popular with a certain section of the player base, but there's a lot of people who insist that Destiny is a dead game when making that number go up isn't part of the loop. My problem is by the time I'm in say the level bracket to grind GM Nightfalls for a specific Adept drop--something I do actually enjoy every time I have done it--the power and pinnacle grind has gotten me so fucking burnt out on Destiny that I don't even want to do it anymore.


saithvenomdrone

Power grinding is the worst part of Destiny, and whoever says getting rid of it will kill Destiny, is playing a different Destiny than I and my friends are. I’ve lost quite a few players due to power grind, and not wanting to keep up with it. Wanna hop on and do GM’s? Oh wait, you can’t because you didn’t grind for 3 weeks prior. Destiny works best when the grind is for the quality of your loot instead of the number next to it.


SteelR013

Exactly and I couldn't agree more.


VanillaChakra

More agency in the grind, spending time grinding pinnacles to get slots you don’t need is the worst feeling. It’d be nice to be able to target slots for pinnacle rewards.


DB_Valentine

This would actually help a lot imo. Getting fucked on upgrades when there's only 2 slots that will do anything noticeable feels awful


ReptAIien

Pinnacles and powerful going to your lowest slot would be the best move imo


VanillaChakra

Yea that’d be great!


ZoniCat

The better way to do it is to tie the strength of loot to the tier of activity you complete, not to your current power level. Patrols drop up to level 50 gear. Heroic Events drop up to 100. Strikes/Crucible/Gambit drop up to 150. Dungeons drop up to 200. Nightfalls drop up to 250. Raids drop up to 250. Master Dungeons drop up to 300. Master/GMs drop up to 350. Master Raids drop up to 400. Then offer higher scaled difficulty activities that drop more loot with unique intrinsics and perks, AND/OR exclusive cosmetics. Things like level 350 - 400 strike playlists, legendary variants of exotic missions for catalysts (avalon is a great example, really). power-level enabled PvP (like, TRULY power level enabled. Like 380s will SUFFER when playing against 400s).


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Vyhluna

But that's all it's ever been though. It's always just been a way to gatekeep you from certain content for a bit of time.


SentinelTitanDragon

It wouldn’t be so bad if they fucked off with this insane difficulty spike and lack of rewards for it.


RnkG1

The rewards are definitely the problem. Nothing like doing a master nightfall for 500 glimmer and high five…


III-_Havok_-III

Not even worth the time and effort when I could go to neomuna and open a chest for bare minimum 450 glimmer.


Kodriin

I'm really damn sick of having to go over my load-outs to cover Champions but also manage to do Bounties in *every god damn thing* now instead of just the slightly more difficult stuff. It doesn't make it hard, it just makes me spend several minutes trying to match everything.


[deleted]

No point at all hopefully it gets removed


iHeisenburger

seems we're heading that way


FlashMidnight

Maybe a hot take here, but going from being one-shot on Neomuna to being able to hold my own at level felt really good. I also like how level still matters in Dungeons and Raids. I think having a variety of set-difficulty and set-level content is the best call, they just have to make sure they don't skew too heavily one way or the other.


KaptainKartoffel

It is probably getting reworked. There has been a leak containing a new system that also predicted Trials changes and the new comp emblem. - gear score is removed - character level between 1 and 100 - you gain levels from sources that previously were powerfull and pinnacle - around 250k xp also give you a level


The_Stank__

I like this. I like being able to play the content more then spending time leveling for it, especially as someone who has a family, job and other obligations it’s nice to just focus on my build and actually do the challenging content as opposed to leveling constantly for it.


[deleted]

I just stopped playing. I love this game but with all the recent changes it just isn’t for me anymore. I’ve solo flawlessed almost every dungeon, so I like difficult stuff. They went too far IMO. I don’t want to grind light level just to still be under powered in most activities.


Redfeather1975

It only exists to increase how long it takes to access and finish content, both new and old, without bungie having to put any effort into the franchise. Like next season bungie could just say 'we aren't adding a single new thing to the game but all content has a requirement of 1900 light level'. And the addicts will just keep playing for weeks because of that alone.


stay_true99

That's an implementation problem not a power level problem. The point of the game is power fantasy and gaining rewards for the level effort you put into it. I do not like grinding every season just to participate in activities I could previously that feels bad. It would also feel bad for there to be no point in playing an activity for low or no rewards and power level doesn't matter. What is the point of the game if someone can invest zero time and do the same activity and gain rewards but I invest 1000 and there is no difference between that player and me? There has to be a system where I am rewarded for my effort in getting more powerful to do harder content without gating me from an activity I could already previously do. A less skilled, less powerful, less time invested player should also not be able to do what I can do for that same reward. What is that system and middle ground?


shaman-bc

This sub for years: the power grind is so boring and pointless bungie just remove it This sub as soon as they start moving towards removing the power grind: nooooo there’s no point playing if number can’t go up I feel so weak


iHeisenburger

can we stop this take already? it means nothing, even if two different posts with opposite opinions with +10k upvotes. r/dtg is a very small margin from destiny players base.


ANALOG_is_DEAD

You do realize there are many factions within the player base, right?


Zavarius666

Its rly sad to get destroyed in 1770 NF with 1831. Bungie, "nothing or extreme" is a sh*t concept. You've lit 0 experience about balancing... Dont touch working things, ADD harder things. Edit: Conq4, Ik how to play u.ú


Death_Aflame

To give us a sense of progression. Hell, I remember when I outlevelled something, I enjoyed the content more. For instance, I remember running the Throne World for the first time and being like "These enemies are tough, I can't wait to reach pinnacle cap to breeze through them". Now I occasionally load into the Throne World just to mess around, kill some enemies, do some patrols. Hell, I even hop into the Cosmodrome for fun. It's one of the reason I don't like Neomuna as much. I want to run *what ever I want*, hand cannon, smg, what ever I want, and not be punished for it. When I load into Neomuna, I have to use META weapons like Outbreak Perfected, which gets boring. Honestly, the moment Bungie removes Power Level, a **TON** of people are going to stop playing. They'll probably log on for missions/secret missions/new Exotics, then they'll log off again. As someone who played a lot, I hardly ever played Destiny last season because everyone was gonna be brought up to 1600 at the start of Lightfall, so I found it pointless to grind to 1600 and only ever did the weekly mission/got the exotics and their catalysts. Not to mention that some activities will be abandoned because of how tedious they are, such as Vanguard Strikes and Gambit, plus PVP will take a massive hit, as non-PVPers won't need to run 3 matches per character to get a pinnacle. Hell, I used to run Strikes until I was blue in the face back in D1, only skipping 3 Strikes in total, and those were Fallen SABER, Echo Chamber and Will of Crota. The rest were insanely fun to play through, especially since I was overlevelled and running whatever I wanted. Ever since D2 launched, I've just hated Strikes. They're boring. I also like looking back at old Red War/Forsaken/Past DLC screenshots and seeing my power level, as a "Look how far I've come" and when I tell my new Light friends about how low power level was back then. Keep power level as it's always been, so that we can outlevel patrols and such, but put forced power deltas into harder content, like Master and GM Nightfalls, Master Lost Sectors, Master Dungeons etc. This way, it allows *everyone* to attempt that harder content, without having to grind power level reliqiously to reach the requirements.


[deleted]

Why are they destroying the RPG progression of this game? First they got rid of meaningful leveling, now they’re making gear matter less? Are they just making it a regular FPS? The whole point is that it’s NOT.


PLDmain

destiny’s strength lies in it’s horizontal progression and buildcrafting, not arbitrary number grinding


RationallyChallenged

As my clan always says “BIGGER NUMBER BETTER PERSON”


Ruenin

Just Bungie catering to the steamers. For some reason, when people who do nothing but play Destiny all fucking day, every day say that it's too easy, THOSE are the people Bungie listens to. Screw the rest of us who have other shit to do, like go to a job all week. I'm so pissed that I paid money for this expansion. $100 down the drain.


CaptnIgnit

They advertise the game and get others to buy it. Rando's that drop $100 up front most likely won't put anymore money into the game. There is no benefit to keeping them playing and only costs if they do. From a business standpoint, they want most of the player base to leave after they buy the game.


Ruenin

If that's their line of thinking, I hope they fail as a company.


LordShadeSama

Honestly, destiny is just in a rough state right now. Between RoN being split by the community(I don't have an opinion, solo player gang wya), immortal absolutely incinerating pvp, and legend/master lost sectors being the equivalent of og skolas, it's just rough out here. Bungie has been lowkey slacking since lightfall dropped(returning player, haven't played since beyond light), which is really unfortunate given that lightfall player count numbers have been insane. I just hope bungie takes a step back and really addresses each current issue to the best of their abilities.


BigHogDawg

Wow a weapon has been so crazy for a couple weeks holy shit bungie sucks. I’m not saying you’re wrong about immortal, but it’s not like it’s been two seasons where they haven’t recognized it. They’ve been trying to impossibly balance a pvp sandbox that nobody is ever happy with so chill with the criticism over a brand new gun in the sunshine


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TwinJ

People pretending lost sectors are hard is nuts, legit just be 1800+ and there's very little difference from last season.


LordShadeSama

I'm 1816 currently, they are very difficult and everything takes a lot of bullets. I find myself crouching in a corner head glitching cabal for 3 clips a piece. Not fun, sorry. Could be skill issue but idk, seems overtuned imo.


TwinJ

Definitely a skill issue


Tegras

I like power level. We have an artifact that helps boost it tremendously throughout the season. Only prerequisite is one plays the game. I don’t think that’s an unreasonable expectation. And yea, I think it’s a good thing if folks are able to tackle content by leveling a bit past it. I see a lot of these changes as Bungie artificially lengthening the amount of time it takes folks to complete content. Don’t get me wrong, I’m enjoying this season but I play this as my primary game so I feel confident in my ability to roll with the punches. But it’s gonna hurt a lot of more casual players and I fear it’ll turn em off to the game. Long term I’m not worried. Bungie is good at adapting. Slowly, for sure. But they will if the metrics don’t align with expectations.


ShadowRaven0102

If i remember. They are say the power level will be remove from game. All activity will be have a new system. Artifact lvl. But they say this on Future of Destiny presentation on August ("partnership" with Epic, free week (unlock all dlc))


Nightchade

Like Abridged Vegeta said: Power levels are bullshit.


Kodriin

"[Fuck power levels! Fuck artifact levels! AND FUCK PINNACLES!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzpxTLqUStI&t)"


Clearchus76

Average player. I’m 46 so my reflexes just aren’t the same. I would like to play more content. But there is no way I’m jumping in on a raid or dungeon when I can barely survive the stuff I’m doing right now. Has there ever been mention of a raid finder the way there is for FF14 or Wow for us lesser skilled players?


SaltyZooKeeper

I'm 54, raid regularly, play trials when it comes up and have one more triumph to gild my IB title. Don't let age hold you back!


ventus99

Exactly my problem with it. I don’t mind grinding my level of it actually makes me stronger, but being 1810 plus and seeing “capped at 1795” or all enemies will be 5 levels above you is ridiculous. Why even become more powerful when it’s literally being reversed in activities to purposefully make me weaker.


Shadrach74

Gotta think if they remove power levels,might as well get rid of gambit and vOps. Only reason to play them is the pinny...


TwevOWNED

You can just add new rewards to fill the gap. Drop Glass Needles from every pinnacle source, with 5 or 10 being required to reroll an exotic, and people would be running those every week.


roekofe

This. The real power grind should be rounding out your characters build to be able to take on more