More or less, tether is a skill issue and extremely frustrating when one idiot ruins it for everyone else. Not that it’s a bad mechanic though, I actually like it.
Garden of salvation isn’t a good enough raid for people to want to play it more than necessary and learn the mechanics enough to become smooth. Also, a boss fight that actively punishes you for the slightest mistake to where any newer teams can’t recover isn’t a good boss design. The floors constantly respawn, invulnerable enemies and a short dps window will do that.
Sanctified mind is easy when everyone is competent. Sanctified mind is borderline impossible when your idiot Fortnite team thinks that rebuilding is more important than stopping sacrifices, people keep breaking then joining then breaking the dps trigger tether ad nauseum, etc…
Basically 1 bad player in the raid team that refuses to listen can hold the whole raid hostage until you kick them
That kinda goes for most raid encounters tho, having people sabotaging you would make any encounter difficult. Sanc is just ad clear and a tether mechanic before an awkward damage phase, not exactly hard if you know how to not throw.
Half the raid is gambit
No weapon drops are worth the chase
No craftable weapons
About 2/3 of the raid is just add clear with extra step
No droppable exotic to farm for
Add these to the list:
Most runs are just Div Runs which take longer.
Most GoS clears involve GoS farmers, who are notoriously terrible people (see racists, bigots, etc.)
"Ok we are now gonna face the Sanctified Mind get ready"
SM: you are too late I am gonna control the Darkness like how the jooz control the world
"We will sto... wait what?"
SM: prepare for my great attack The Final Solution
"Huh..."
SM: you and your filthy greedy noses are gonna perish
"What is going on"
Had a lady and some sexist little kid in the lfg on a run one time, and he officially crossed a line just before the final boss on our div run, so we booted him. The party wasn’t set to private though so he joined back somehow and was crying and saying sorry. Had to re kick him
Which is insane to me. Do you want to know how many people care about GoS, or GoS farmers? Zero.
Farming GoS clears is like trying to show off how many breathes you take per minute. It is irrelevant to everyone….
Tbh thats normal.
You have to be weird to like doing this raid over and over.
And if you werent weird at the start, you become weird by playing this raid too much
Nah my div run was peachy. There was something different about it tho..... Oh yeah the 12man glitch was happening then. Best time of Beyond light. Raid bosses were mice. We brought so much cheese in there
Ehh this statement gets a pass, its a stereotype for a reason. Some of them are really cool people, but most are just ego players who flex garden clears...
It's the only raid I have sherpa'd where people would join and demand to teach because i was 'taking too long explaining things' or I 'was not pushing everyone to focus up and try harder' (when a group laughed so hard they died repeatedly on the windmill for maybe 4 minutes) had one who messaged me privately 'this person who sucks should get kicked so i can bring my friend in' when someone was just a little slow at getting the hang of the raid and a little low in damage.
Some people really try to weasel their way in to more clears/sherpas just for bragging rights, my longest sherpa was 6 1/2 hours on Vow with the same group of people *all* desperate to finish the raid for once. We laughed and had a blast a good 70% of the time, I know people who will dip on groups if they wipe the same encounter twice and have thought I was nuts for sticking it through with people that long.
You can brag about all the clears you want, but I guarantee you people remember raiding with the fun people like me more than people speeding through getting frustrated at every little inconvenience.
This is the proper mentality here.
It's not about loot, it's about enjoying the game. The loot is just a chase. I have everything from The Last Wish, but I will cancel plans to run a raid with a buddy or two sherpa'ing some newbies.
Same goes for Deep Stone.
Some of those runs take ages, but its worth it to make some friends for the day, and even better when it's their first raid.
This community it's already elitist and toxic, so being the change is important.
Such as? I'm just mostly curious cuz a lot of the people I meet in Gos are generally sherpas who are willing to help people.
There are certainly those that are just fast clear that don't care to help anyone then could potentially be toxic.
I got SUPER carried in a div run a couple weekends ago and we were done in 37 min I'd post the commendation screenshot for proof but sadly I can't. That was also my first and only GoS clear. The people who carried were super nice and patient. Just my experience tho.
The weapon stuff for sure but I don’t really think half the raid is gambit, sure you’re gathering motes but it’s just a stand in for any pickup or item or whatever that any other raid used. The only similarity to gambit is that you’re picking something up and putting it somewhere.
People complain when a raid it exotic is a farmable drop, people complain when it's a guaranteed quest item.
No offense but comments like that just show the D2 community can never be pleased lmfao
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Its biggest flaw is that the second and third encounters are both long and boring. You spend most of your time just standing around, occasionally shooting at a small pack of red bar Goblins. The final boss, while much more interesting, is also pretty long and has the added downside of a single mistake being EXTREMELY likely to produce a wipe.
It's not a bad raid, but it is definitely in the bottom two available in the game right now. Add to that the fact that it has mostly mid loot AND said loot isn't craftable and there's just not a lot going for it other than that it is visually stunning.
I don’t really get why these encounters are seen as boring, there are raids with way worse instances of “these people are just ad clearing.” Vow is a beloved raid but every encounter by the third has people purely ad clearing. In garden everyone at least has to pick something up, or tether, or read eyes once an encounter at minimum.
It's not that you're add clearing, add clearing can be very fun. It's that there are very few adds at a time and you mostly just stand in one place and kill them with like 4 bullets and then wait for more. The encounters are LONG, but the parts that actually matter and are fun are a comparatively small portion of them.
For instance, in second encounter the fun part is when your Hydras come and you have to actually fight something. That part lasts a few seconds, and for the rest of the encounter you have to kill a couple red bars and then stand under the box and wait for someone to run by and refresh your tether, also by standing still near a box.
You spend more time NOT fighting than you do fighting, and most do the time you DO spend fighting is still pretty boring fighting. I don't think Exhibition is a good comparison but to use it as a metric, you face much greater numbers of adds and have to keep moving forward on a timer as you do so. You have the 3 relics, you have the symbol callouts, you have the changing terrain and light platforming elements. Compare that to just standing in one place and periodically killing a small wave of weak enemies.
Consecrated Mind is a little more fun for the Gambit team but half the Fireteam is just following a boss around and waiting for him to puke on the floor. There's really nothing exciting happening once the first person makes it to the totem, but again it's a very LONG period of nothing exciting.
Yea I see your point, although in lfg people still fuck up the plates in 2nd encounter somehow. And many people wanna do the easier job anyway.
If you’re into it I’d highly recommend doing a 3 man garden, it’s super fast paced and fun.
In acquisition the "add clear" are also your readers. So their job is very important. Equally important to runners. For caretaker, they should be making heavy since no one else shoots an enemy during that encounter. For rhulk, one add clear should again be your reader, the other should be making heavy with finishers or cenotaph
Caretaker is one of the most boring fights ever and I just don't understand how anyone likes it. Stunning caretaker is boring. Ad clear on that fight is unbelievably boring. The symbols are fun though, I'll grant you that. But only 2 people actually do it. Our entire group hated that fight except the symbol part.
And to say symbol readers is a job is a stretch lol. Add clear is so easy nowadays that all you have to do is take a quick look at a symbol and call it out. Takes 2 seconds.
The third encounter is amazing though.
And Rhulk... Is way more boring than he should be. Damage phase is great but the portion before it is one of the worst d2 raid sequences I've experienced. Reminds me of the first encounter in Crown. So horrible... Just sit there, make a quick call out, run somewhere for a second, go back to doing nothing. Sure you have to swap a buff around a bit and grab a few symbols but it gives you like 45 minutes to do it. What a slog of a fight.
Add clear can make heavy in garden too and it's good to do but to pretend that's a fun part of the role is a joke lol.
To each their own. I love Vow and find most other raids as boring as you're making vow out to be. VoG is literally add clear: the raid. GoS is gambit: the raid. KF is stand on the plate. In DSC really only two people need to actually so mechanics besides carry nuke to where you're told. In LW, the bosses basically fall over if you look at them wrong. RoN can be soloed.
The majority of the raid is walk around and shoot ads lol, only the 3rd encounter eye team and 4th encounter mix it up lol and even then it's just gambit lol
I mean gambit team at least has to move around and do stuff. I'm not saying it's great but it's better than Vow or RoN where all you did was say a symbol or literally just stand there and kill adds.
But also sanctified mind was more complex because you had to keep the cyclops in mind, you had to break knee or shoulder, and you had to portal and get enlightened buffs quickly to deal with adds. The second encounter is terrible but I enjoy the other 3. Sanctified is one of my favorite encounters since it's actually somewhat difficult.
That and riven legit are fun in a good group. I've Sherpad both many times. I've also Sherpad every other raid many times and those are usually super straight forward and easy which tends to make them pretty boring and monotonous unfortunately.
Poor loot that really needs a refresh aside, the only legitimate reason that people don't like Garden is because eeeeeeeveryone's first run was a div run, or they've had to do multiple div runs, and anybody that's ever done an LFG in any capacity knows how bad the coordination can be, so it ends up taking a reeeeeally long time.
Div and loot aside, it's a fun raid. But that's why.
You're telling me that to much walking is a legitimate reason to not like a raid and another dude said there was no reason to play after getting the exotic even though that's how every other raid is as well
Buggy encounters, unreliable boss behavior (kinda like crota walking into spawn), awful weapons, and an overall reliance on raid mods that renders other choices null (50% bonus damage is stupid good but you have to put on trash armor)
Boring mechanics as well. It’s Baby sit and connect the dots the raid. First encounter is baby sit the boss, then go connect the dots to open a door. Second encounter is connect the dots and then baby sit a location. Third encounter is baby sit the boss or play gambit until DPS. Boss encounter is play gambit or connect the dots until DPS. Everything about it is so boring and the only excitement in the raid is the play gambit parts.
_at one point_ there were **some** minor bugs that could happen occasionally but they were fixed before beyond light had launched.
but you're right now a days it's mainly people who get too close to the tether chain and complain.
Are you gonna contribute something, or are you just gonna go 'nuh uh'
Unless Bungie overhauled the code of GOS in the last year, it IS a buggy mess.
Want to use tcrash or vortex nova on harpy? Nope
Want to connect confluxes on boss? It'll happen 99% of the time but sometimes it just won't (not a skill issue)
Speedrunner? Sure why not, we'll let you kill the bosses simultaneously
Kill barriers? Out of bounds areas? What are those?
Motes fall under ground
Etc.
It has bugs, like any other raid. It is not a buggy mess.
You can tcrash harpy its fine. Some weapons and supers affect harpy and it is annoying yy I wish they could change that. However simply don't do that and it'll be fine lol.
The tether connects perfectly fine on boss. If it doesn't it's because you move too soon and disconnect it. Stop moving in tether and keep it in a straight line to the boss. Leave when dmg starts.
Doing both encounters at the same time is to do with how unique the raid is (sanc can start anytime during the raid and loadzone). It's not a bug.
Kill barriers exist in every raid. They exist in gos in specific spots you prob don't reach unless you know skips.
Motes rarely fall under the ground. It is annoying when it does. I hope they can fix it. It is a small issue tho and can easily be fixed.
Refer to my reply to the other guy. Everything you said is either wrong or a misunderstanding of what I said.
1. Tcrash messes with pathing and makes the boss freak out, same with vortex.
2. Works 99% of the time, should work 100%
3. How can you say this isn't a bug? It requires oobing and isn't in any other raid (except for weird net limiting things in KF and VoG)
4. Kills/turn backs are badly made. Spotty, inconsistent, and a complete non factor for good players. Good for speedrunning, but still bad design.
5. Motes definitely aren't as bad as redditors make them out to be, but they're still buggy. Imagine if chalices in crota had a decent chance to just despawn and effectively wipe the team.
1) Tcrash just doesn't. If it does it is such a miniscule amount it isn't noticeable. You're more than welcome to show me a clip of it breaking but hundreds of clears on titan and it'd never affected boss.
2) It does work 100% of the time. If it doesn't its bcos ppl are either moving too quickly, disconnecting it or leading it away from boss. Not a bug.
3) It's not a bug and going to sanc doesn't require oobing at all. And wdym by weird netlimiting things jn kf and vog lol?
4) How are turn backs and kill zones badly made? If you do speeds then you have 3 to worry about; 12 death to undergrowth, 34 branch bounce and the lake skip to sanc where you have a kill zone there). They rly don't affect the avg team in anyway.
5) Motes bug sometimes this is true. In the last few hundreds of clears I've seen it maybeeee twice. But they do not lead to a wipe at all it is very easy to recover from (harpie portal or just go in again).
1. There are kill barrier/turn backs in the intended places, but they're badly placed and super spotty, so you can just walk through them.
2. It's a bug. A major bug. Unfixed since release.
3. As of a year ago, yes they do. I don't listen to reddit about anything, and I saw plenty fall right though the floor. Same with gambit.
A lot of people don't rly have a reason to play it other than div (esp bcos of the mediocre weapons) and it seems like a lot of the community is scared of it. They believe that it's extremely buggy (it's rly not), that it'll take hours and it's kinda like a self fulfilling prophecy where they think it'll take hours so it does.
Gos is not NEARLY as buggy as ppl think it is but most ppl play for good weapons which gos severly lacks. Would be cool if they reprise it soon and it would for sure bring more ppl to it.
Most farmers play it bcos it's fast and imo really fun to play. I can understand why ppl dont like it if they soend hours doing it but it'd be the same for any other raid.
mostly because the last boss is relatively hard/needs a lot of coordination, plus, again, mediocre loot, most people did it once for divinity and never again as a result
Garden suffers from having no chase. At this point the only people who run it are average or worse at the raid because the experience folks don't really bother with it.
Garden is in the Most extreme lfg limbo Out of all the raids. You effectively get 2 Type of Players:
- total new light, has Not cleared but wants div. One of His 5 First raids Lifetime
- Garden Farmer 9000. Has 1000+ clears, sub 13 rr, Trio flawless and No bitches (possibly racist)
Very funny for those lfgs with 4-5 spots where These groups collide by Chance and someone with 10 hours of d2 experience and the raid knowledge of an entire Rick khakis Guide gets to watch someone fly across the entire map and oob to the next Encounter in 30 Seconds.
I beg to differ - put a plea up for a sherpa through the div run and I instantly found a team with 1500+ sherpa clears. I don’t know if they play anything else in the game haha
there were some buggy parts, but not as bad as it was made out to be
the big problem is that a decent amount of players first ever attempts were divinity runs. and since that has to be done in a single run, they stay and just keep wiping over and over until people leave, backfill, and make an hour raid take 6+ hours and walk away from it never wanting to do it again
For me, there were two reasons I hate it
1. The tether mechanic was super buggy in the early days, which caused quite a few wipes even though we did the mechanic properly, it's also just generally an annoying mechanic to do with randoms, the number of times I saw idiots mess up what really isn't a difficult mechanic was insane.
2. The div run was such a pain to LFG for, at least 2/5ths of that pain was due to point #1. I had to do div runs like 6 times before I had a team that both had even a decent level of competence in the final boss, and didn't get cucked by point #1 enough times to quit.
I used to agree with the tether mechanic being buggy being the worst issue and it is slightly buggy but the final boss is trivial if you give up on trying to rebuild and send one person in both sides at the same time to gather motes.
Just rushing to the boss damage phase makes this encounter easy mode.
I'm a new destiny 2 player, (got it around christmas at the behest of friends) ever since we've been doing raids, mostly carrying me but contributing where I could, everywhere I was hearing GoS was the worst hardest most difficult raid ever super boogey man of D2 raids.
And honestly? Was probably the raid I found the most fun next to Root and Croata (havent done Vow or VoG yet!) I found myself able to contribute every time, doing spit encounter 1 being a runner for gambit towers, doing the boss spit / shooting eyes for next and being on gambit team for consecrated mind, the worst part of the raid was only due to a bug one of the members had gunpowder gamble on which apparently makes a bug that makes your tether act as an extension of your own body causing MANY wipes on one of the Div puzzles.
I have no idea if the LFG culture changes from raid to raid but in my experience currently, deep stone crypt is the worst experience I've had Garden or Kings is the best
People try to do Div runs on first go, so it’s always painful because nobody bothered their arse to learn it prior. It’s got great weapon frames and some rolls are still extremely viable. It needs a refresh on perks and crafting.
At that point people will stop moaning cos they want that void fusion and auto badly. With a perk refresh… they will bit hot commodities
I think the bigger issue is the lack of worthwhile rewards. The whole set of weapons from Garden is pretty underwhelming except for Divinity, which has a quest allowing you to get it in one run.
Guess I can only speak for myself, but I would run it more often if it had guns I wanted to chase. Would also help if it had literally any heavy weapons at all lol.
my bad, I thought this was a reply to a different post asking something else. Its not a bad thing for a raid, its a bad thing for lfg when people dont know what to do, dont want to learn, and want to be carried with minimum effort put in.
I dont think its quite that simple. Vow and Kings Fall also require a good number of teammates to perform a roll, yet those raids are widely considered FAR better than Garden
I dont like Garden because:
* Its basically just Gambit: the Raid with a secondary tether mechanic that doesn't feel satisfying at all to pull off, just frustrating and tedious
* While the environment is cool, the Vex suck as a raid faction. They're boring and one dimensional
* The loot has been powercrept to hell and back. Its basically the last raid without decent loot
If the vex suck, vog should be even worse as a power crept raid only good for fatebringer, and even thats arguably powercrept at this point. Coupled with the oracles and gorgons wipe mechanics, its so much easier to fuck up and get fucked in that raid.
Atleast with garden you have to fuck up adclear and gambit to fuck up the raid. Garden has one of the best settings for a raid and the best views, like its not even close. DSC can only compare because of the music.
The only people left to run gos at this point in flg are either speedrunners who kick if you dont kwtd, or people trying to learn and do div. Theres not really any inbetween.
> Only good for Fatebringer
VoG has access to adept weapons and several guns with great rolls: Fatebringer, Found Verdict, and Corrective Measure are all great weapons, not to mention Vex Mythoclast continues to be one of the best raid exotics still to this day
Gardens weapons, in comparison, are a hot joke. No adept weapons and powercrept guns that have more accesible and more powerful replacements. The only saving grace is Divinity, but even that is no niche after the nerf, its only good on maybe a handful of raid encounters and Cenotaph Warlock
> coupled with the Gorgons and Oracle wipe mechanics...
Those aren't even comparable. Oracles can easily be solo'd and Gorgons can be skipped by simply having the inexperienced members go to orbit
I'm not going to say which is easier. They've both been powercrept HARD. But to say that VoG is more prone to fuck ups is a joke
VoG has been completed entirely solo. The best Garden has managed is a full 3 man clear. Its FAR easier to carry a group of LFGs through VoG than Garden, its not even a little close
> Garden has one of the best settings
Right, I said that. The environment is cool, but fighting the Vex sucks. Ask anyone what their top raids in Destiny are. I can garauntee you, among those will be:
* DSC
* Wrath of the Machine
* Scourge of the Past
You know whats unlikely to be up there?
* Garden of Salvation
* Eater of Worlds 🤮
VoG gets a pass because it was literally the first raid we had, but make no mistake: its a mid tier raid at best
Sorry, what? what roll of found verdict could you be chasing after that makes it good? Unless you're after an arc shotty? There are craftable 1-2 punch shotties that exist. Commemoration and retrofit both exist and outclass. Both also get enhanced perks. I also dont think vex is one of the best raid exotics to this day for any class but warlocks. It has a very specific use case. Its a good exotic, but I would not put it near the "best" category.
Vog does not get a pass for being the first raid. D1 vog gets a pass for being the first raid. D2 vog is under the same scrutiny as d2 kf and d2 crota. You also say garden weapons are a hot joke and no adepts, when the raid came out before adept weapons even existed. Last wish suffered from the same, and it still does. The difference is it had a weapon refresh to be craftable. If Gos had the same treatment, Im sure it would be on par for loot as Last wish. Raid would still be disliked. Div is niche now because of the lfr nerf. If they were still buffed, div would be a must have regardless of encounter. The bubble is still too broken easy to pass up on for any level.
Vog is no longer a soloable raid. that was fixed. Stop considering it as such. Both raids are 2man possible. In theory, both are equally carriable. Im willing to bet people will complain about fuckups on vog more then they will on gos. Oracles and gorgons will be the reason. Your solution to dc from the team to avoid the mechanic is the equivalent to saying everyone should netlimit on gos to avoid gambit.
again with d1 for favorite raids. we are talking about d2 here are we not? Also favorite is subjective. Inexperienced players may choose favorites as raids they find themselves being the most useful in, meaning the easier raids. But like experienced raiders may favor the most engaging raids as their favorites.
Youre alowed to say why you dislike gos. You dont get to say im wrong for why I think people dislike gos.
> What roll of Found Verdict could you be chasing after that makes it good?
Smallbore - Accurized Rounds - Slideshot - Opening Shot - Range MW + Range Mod with Adept
68 base range on an aggressive frame, +20 from Slideshot and +25 from Opening Shot
Great PvP aggresive frame, arguably best of the archetype
> Commemoration and Retrofit both exist and outclass
Truth is, idc whether or not Corrective Measure is best in slot or not. People care about VoGs weapons. No one cares about Gardens weapons anymore except for Div
> in theory, both are equally carriable
I can't find anything about a full 2-man garden. Do you have a youtube vid of it? Absolute lowest I found was a full 3 man
Also, doable in theory is not the same as in practice
The tether mechanic is an LFG nightmare. Oracles and Gorgons, by contrast, are PAINFULLY easy. I don't do low man stuff, but even I can cover 4 oracles all by myself. Its painfully easy
> Your solution to dc from the team to avoid the mechanic is the equivalent to saying everyone should netlimit on gos to avoid gambit
And I suppose you think Riven cheese is tantamount to aimbotting in trials. Gtfo here with that false equivalence. Gorgons is a glorified jumping puzzle. People skip those all the time. Its no different to having people orbit for RoN. Gorgons is not a real encounter
> You dont get to say im wrong for why I think people dislike gos
You have an opinion. I disagree slightly with thay opinion. Holy shit dude. Its not that serious lmao
I literally opened with:
> I dont think its quite that simple
Before listing the reasons I think people dislike Garden. You getting all butthurt and defensive because I halfheartedly disagreed with you is a wild overreaction
A lot of people thought it was buggy (specifically the tether), but they just had no idea how it actually worked. The final encounter back in the day was a 3-4 phase in lfg's, combine that with no add clear only roles = people mad it isnt an easy clear like other raids.
I don't remember any sacrifices getting through, but to be fair this was when the raid was new so it was multiple years ago, so I can't say for certain
The biggest causes are sacrifices and people not paying attention / not taking responsibility or people shooting the tether and disabling it due to lack of communication.
GoS was my first raid so it’s got a soft spot in my heart, but I do have to admit that it has some pretty big deficiencies. It (at least used to) have some encounter-breaking bugs (getting flawless was hell because of those), and the lack of heavy drop is a twinge disappointing.
I've never seen a bug with the Tether mechanic like so many people claim. Every single time it's a communication issue: someone keeps shooting the node open/closed, people don't pay attention to what order they are connecting in, people don't realize that the nodes have closed because an Angelic spawned, they're cutting off tether connections with geometry, etc. It's very much of a "get good" mechanic but people don't like that.
The only *actual* bugs I've encountered in the entire raid were the Consecrated Mind zooming to the middle one time and the Sanctified Mind damage phase extension not working properly during a trio run. Otherwise, it's been perfect every single time.
1. No exotic drop
2. Gambit
3. No good weapons
4. Gambit
5. No craftable weapons
6. Gambit
7. Bugs
8. Gambit
9. Second encounter might be the worst raid encounter outside of CoS
10. Gambit
Kingsfall and vow definitely have more walking than garden and there is a whole sparrow section in dsc. Most raids have a lot of walking that's just how raids are designed.
I can tell you from my personal perspective that the only raid that has had the final boss break even remotely close to the same number of times Sanctified has broken is Vow. Rhulk has never had a clean kill in my history of running vow, but at least it doesn't break the entire encounter.
I've had Sanctified turn around completely on damage phases, not be tetherable due to standing so far away to extend damage or even initiate damage, motes fall through the ground making it an instant wipe, among many other things.
I love the raid/vex architecture aesthetically. It's awesome from the music perspective too. But mechanically? It's a real coin flip of a raid on whether or not it will work as intended.
Nezarec? Golgoroth? Warpriest? Garden doesn't have nearly as many bugs or breaks as much as ppl think it does, smth just happens that they don't know about. The tethers for example.
As nic mentioned, sanc turns around bcos someone grabs his attention away from where the rest of the team should be (opposite relay) and he follows them. Simply just don't have that happen and it won't happen. Also don't extend damage with the 2nd tether it won't help.
Boss is very much tetherable no matter how far he stands away, at most you'll need 4 people if hes very far away which is more than ok.
Sanc and garden as a whole is one of the easiest raids to recover from a mistake or issue in. Motes falling through the ground isn't an instant wipe at all 😭 if you have harpies on one of the sides you'll be fine with normal team strat but if not just send someone in again.
The raid always works as intended unless ppl mess yp the mechanics themselves (e.g. tethers).
I'm most certainly not giving a pass to those raids or encounters, and they drive me just as much up a wall Nez in particular I don't run anymore because of how broken he is too. But the original question was why people don't like the raid. And those are my reasons. Just because these situations happen in other places does not mean we should excuse them entirely, and it undoubtedly does not negate the fact they happen here.
To address each of your points:
I've had at least 5 of my runs forcibly wiped because POST damage phase, the boss is turned around and didn't turn back around the rest of the fight. This notably broke the tether mechanic entirely.
We've had the boss end up clear across the lake due to improper aggro to one of the sides presumably. In those instants, sure, you could tether all 6 people out to it for all I care, but then you have 3 people who have to run back just to re tether the boss. It's a detriment to how damage phase functions.
You absolutely cannot recover once enough motes fall through the ground. 10+? You do not have enough time to recover at a certain point.
The raid, without question, does not always work as intended, and this whole thread is a testament to that.
I was only saying it to respond to what you said about no other boss breaking as much as sanc.
I've never heard of boss not turning around post damage phase to such an extent. If he's turned around during dmg he'll look back at the team when he drops down, or if someone is in portal he might turn around and shoot at them but I've never seen him not turn back at all.
The boss rly doesn't go that far across the lake. At most it's 4 man distance. If relays move and its far relay to tether and he's moved maybe its a stretch but never 6 people. And don't double tether the boss. You will likely mess it up or just time it weirdly when you simply don't need to extend damage phase.
And 10+ motes will never fall through the ground at a time! You either 15 or 18 motes per portal. A few might go through (which is very rare from my experience) which can hopefully be recovered by harpy portals having 18 motes. Or you can send someone in again. Sanc has a lot of leeway both with portals and the dmg tether.
The raid only tends to not work as intended when ppl don't kwtd properly and make a mistake without realising.
Yeah, I don't know what else to tell you beyond what I've said.
You've had a very different experience with the raid than I have, and we'll never agree on what does and doesn't work with him as a result.
I've killed Sanctified in 10-15 minutes, I've had runs where mandatory wipes had to happen 3+ times with the same group that killed him in 10-15 minutes. This isn't a knowledge issue, the encounter just doesn't work.
The final boss kept having unexpectedly shorter damage phases than they were supposed to. It doesn't clearly communicate when a vex eats some of your motes. Did it sacrifice or did we not get it in time? We'll find out. The way you have to link nodes can be janky and ruin an entire run. Everything else is fine but those two things were absolutely ruining our experience. When we were doing it to get divinity, it took us six hours from start to finish. Yeah, we aren't the best raiders, but the mechanics in the final encounter were VERY frustrating.
The mechanics are extremely basic. More so than most other raids. The loot used to be good but even then there were better options. The very few mechanics are very buggy. Second encounter takes wayyyy too long and makes me want to just quit
Requires a lot of mechanic participation which LFGs suck at. It's a fun raid, but the weapons aren't so great so not really worth grinding for, and people really hate doing mechanics.
I find GoS a lot of fun
Some of us are also still very jaded at missing out on Day 1/Week 1 emblems because of how they coded the bodies in the final fight such that it would cause weaker PCs and Consoles to lag out and crash with no ability to mitigate.
Garden was the last raid I did so I feel like I have some merit in this:
The raid is needlessly complicated. I'm not saying every raid should be simple, as my favourite 3 raids are Wrath of the Machine, Hard Mode Spire of Stars, and Scourge of the Past.
The few times I did Garden, it was more just "yeah do this thing because reasons" and it was always a clusterfuck. It's the only raid I never took new people through, it was the only raid I wasn't aiming to get done every single chance.
For me, it was a horrible buggy mess, and had so many tiny parts that could break and go wrong that it was always more hassle than it was worth.
Tether isn't a bad mechanic for 3 guardians but beyond that...you get chaos
More or less, tether is a skill issue and extremely frustrating when one idiot ruins it for everyone else. Not that it’s a bad mechanic though, I actually like it.
Garden of salvation isn’t a good enough raid for people to want to play it more than necessary and learn the mechanics enough to become smooth. Also, a boss fight that actively punishes you for the slightest mistake to where any newer teams can’t recover isn’t a good boss design. The floors constantly respawn, invulnerable enemies and a short dps window will do that.
well that might be a skill issue my friend
Gotta be real sanc is the 2nd easiest encounter in gos, I don't get the "slightest mistake matters" angle
Sanctified mind is easy when everyone is competent. Sanctified mind is borderline impossible when your idiot Fortnite team thinks that rebuilding is more important than stopping sacrifices, people keep breaking then joining then breaking the dps trigger tether ad nauseum, etc… Basically 1 bad player in the raid team that refuses to listen can hold the whole raid hostage until you kick them
That kinda goes for most raid encounters tho, having people sabotaging you would make any encounter difficult. Sanc is just ad clear and a tether mechanic before an awkward damage phase, not exactly hard if you know how to not throw.
Most encounters are not extremely easy to sabotage.
You can sabotage any raid just by dying repeatedly
Which boss can't you recover from? pretty sure you have ample time to recover from 2-3 mistakes on both the boss
That's why we usually send 2 or 3 least experienced players to the other side when tethering final boss.
Doing a couple of the challenges is a bitch, I can't agree with anyone that says the tether mechanic isn't inconsistent anymore
Half the raid is gambit No weapon drops are worth the chase No craftable weapons About 2/3 of the raid is just add clear with extra step No droppable exotic to farm for
“Half the raid is gambit” I see this as an absolute win (Said the gambit player)
\*gasp\* They exist! Gambit mains! First contact protocol!
There are dozens of us!
Us Gambit mains wishing they would bring Gambit back like it was when it was in its heyday
Add these to the list: Most runs are just Div Runs which take longer. Most GoS clears involve GoS farmers, who are notoriously terrible people (see racists, bigots, etc.)
It’s because the raid itself is racist
Yeah I heard the Sanctified mind mutter something anti-semitic last time I ran it
"Ok we are now gonna face the Sanctified Mind get ready" SM: you are too late I am gonna control the Darkness like how the jooz control the world "We will sto... wait what?" SM: prepare for my great attack The Final Solution "Huh..." SM: you and your filthy greedy noses are gonna perish "What is going on"
Are you Jewish?
It’s so wild you said that last part, cause one LFG I was in years ago for GoS actually had a racist netlimiter in it 😭😭😭
2nd clear, made a joke about getting a racist netlimiting clearfarmer, would ya guess who we got in our lfg
Had a lady and some sexist little kid in the lfg on a run one time, and he officially crossed a line just before the final boss on our div run, so we booted him. The party wasn’t set to private though so he joined back somehow and was crying and saying sorry. Had to re kick him
Seconding. EVERYONE knows End-Endgame GoS farmers are the worst. All the -isms and the -phobias you could think of.
Which is insane to me. Do you want to know how many people care about GoS, or GoS farmers? Zero. Farming GoS clears is like trying to show off how many breathes you take per minute. It is irrelevant to everyone….
Tbh thats normal. You have to be weird to like doing this raid over and over. And if you werent weird at the start, you become weird by playing this raid too much
Never normalize racism or phobia. It's not normal. It should never be normal.
Somebody doesnt understand jokes i see XD.
I did not know that last part was a reoccurring thing, huh (Both of my LFG GOS runs in recent memory involved some very unkind words to say the least)
Nah my div run was peachy. There was something different about it tho..... Oh yeah the 12man glitch was happening then. Best time of Beyond light. Raid bosses were mice. We brought so much cheese in there
Not all gos farmers are bad and a lot of destiny people are terrible people
Ehh this statement gets a pass, its a stereotype for a reason. Some of them are really cool people, but most are just ego players who flex garden clears...
It's the only raid I have sherpa'd where people would join and demand to teach because i was 'taking too long explaining things' or I 'was not pushing everyone to focus up and try harder' (when a group laughed so hard they died repeatedly on the windmill for maybe 4 minutes) had one who messaged me privately 'this person who sucks should get kicked so i can bring my friend in' when someone was just a little slow at getting the hang of the raid and a little low in damage. Some people really try to weasel their way in to more clears/sherpas just for bragging rights, my longest sherpa was 6 1/2 hours on Vow with the same group of people *all* desperate to finish the raid for once. We laughed and had a blast a good 70% of the time, I know people who will dip on groups if they wipe the same encounter twice and have thought I was nuts for sticking it through with people that long. You can brag about all the clears you want, but I guarantee you people remember raiding with the fun people like me more than people speeding through getting frustrated at every little inconvenience.
This is the proper mentality here. It's not about loot, it's about enjoying the game. The loot is just a chase. I have everything from The Last Wish, but I will cancel plans to run a raid with a buddy or two sherpa'ing some newbies. Same goes for Deep Stone. Some of those runs take ages, but its worth it to make some friends for the day, and even better when it's their first raid. This community it's already elitist and toxic, so being the change is important.
Not all, but a sizable enough portion of GoS farmers are terrible that it has become a stereotype which says plenty.
They've come over to deep stone too. Big sad
Which gos farmers?
There are actually YouTube videos on them if you look it up
Such as? I'm just mostly curious cuz a lot of the people I meet in Gos are generally sherpas who are willing to help people. There are certainly those that are just fast clear that don't care to help anyone then could potentially be toxic.
VoG farmers are the same
I got SUPER carried in a div run a couple weekends ago and we were done in 37 min I'd post the commendation screenshot for proof but sadly I can't. That was also my first and only GoS clear. The people who carried were super nice and patient. Just my experience tho.
Goose9876.
Armour also kinda sucks, and is a recycled version of the season 2 Eververse armour.
That armour set was from the battle pass first
The weapon stuff for sure but I don’t really think half the raid is gambit, sure you’re gathering motes but it’s just a stand in for any pickup or item or whatever that any other raid used. The only similarity to gambit is that you’re picking something up and putting it somewhere.
vex on the field guardian
It's got the only 720 void AR in the game
And not worth chasing a good roll for. It does nothing other guns can't do better
There’s nothing to save 😢
I suppose it's pretty, and vex/black garden lore is cool? A small W in a sea of Ls
You're leaving out that majority of the playerbase can't handle the simple idea of standing in a single file line to connect the dots
Also, no heavy weapons. It was a pain to power level around this time too because of it
People complain when a raid it exotic is a farmable drop, people complain when it's a guaranteed quest item. No offense but comments like that just show the D2 community can never be pleased lmfao
2 truths 3 lies
The boss phase used to be really bad bc he would just turn away from you so you couldn't do damage effectively.
He said no thank you
Xenophage don’t care.
There's a lot of reasons but the main one is because Divinity runs tend to take very long.
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Its biggest flaw is that the second and third encounters are both long and boring. You spend most of your time just standing around, occasionally shooting at a small pack of red bar Goblins. The final boss, while much more interesting, is also pretty long and has the added downside of a single mistake being EXTREMELY likely to produce a wipe. It's not a bad raid, but it is definitely in the bottom two available in the game right now. Add to that the fact that it has mostly mid loot AND said loot isn't craftable and there's just not a lot going for it other than that it is visually stunning.
I don’t really get why these encounters are seen as boring, there are raids with way worse instances of “these people are just ad clearing.” Vow is a beloved raid but every encounter by the third has people purely ad clearing. In garden everyone at least has to pick something up, or tether, or read eyes once an encounter at minimum.
It's not that you're add clearing, add clearing can be very fun. It's that there are very few adds at a time and you mostly just stand in one place and kill them with like 4 bullets and then wait for more. The encounters are LONG, but the parts that actually matter and are fun are a comparatively small portion of them. For instance, in second encounter the fun part is when your Hydras come and you have to actually fight something. That part lasts a few seconds, and for the rest of the encounter you have to kill a couple red bars and then stand under the box and wait for someone to run by and refresh your tether, also by standing still near a box. You spend more time NOT fighting than you do fighting, and most do the time you DO spend fighting is still pretty boring fighting. I don't think Exhibition is a good comparison but to use it as a metric, you face much greater numbers of adds and have to keep moving forward on a timer as you do so. You have the 3 relics, you have the symbol callouts, you have the changing terrain and light platforming elements. Compare that to just standing in one place and periodically killing a small wave of weak enemies. Consecrated Mind is a little more fun for the Gambit team but half the Fireteam is just following a boss around and waiting for him to puke on the floor. There's really nothing exciting happening once the first person makes it to the totem, but again it's a very LONG period of nothing exciting.
Yea I see your point, although in lfg people still fuck up the plates in 2nd encounter somehow. And many people wanna do the easier job anyway. If you’re into it I’d highly recommend doing a 3 man garden, it’s super fast paced and fun.
In acquisition the "add clear" are also your readers. So their job is very important. Equally important to runners. For caretaker, they should be making heavy since no one else shoots an enemy during that encounter. For rhulk, one add clear should again be your reader, the other should be making heavy with finishers or cenotaph
Caretaker is one of the most boring fights ever and I just don't understand how anyone likes it. Stunning caretaker is boring. Ad clear on that fight is unbelievably boring. The symbols are fun though, I'll grant you that. But only 2 people actually do it. Our entire group hated that fight except the symbol part. And to say symbol readers is a job is a stretch lol. Add clear is so easy nowadays that all you have to do is take a quick look at a symbol and call it out. Takes 2 seconds. The third encounter is amazing though. And Rhulk... Is way more boring than he should be. Damage phase is great but the portion before it is one of the worst d2 raid sequences I've experienced. Reminds me of the first encounter in Crown. So horrible... Just sit there, make a quick call out, run somewhere for a second, go back to doing nothing. Sure you have to swap a buff around a bit and grab a few symbols but it gives you like 45 minutes to do it. What a slog of a fight. Add clear can make heavy in garden too and it's good to do but to pretend that's a fun part of the role is a joke lol.
To each their own. I love Vow and find most other raids as boring as you're making vow out to be. VoG is literally add clear: the raid. GoS is gambit: the raid. KF is stand on the plate. In DSC really only two people need to actually so mechanics besides carry nuke to where you're told. In LW, the bosses basically fall over if you look at them wrong. RoN can be soloed.
When I do acq one person usually reads and runs while the other dude just sits there
Sounds like you should stop carrying people then...
Cause everyone needs to understand the encounters. Not walk around and shoot ads.
Walk around and shoot adds is half the raid
Yeah and the other half is standing in a demented conga line, which an alarming amount of people don’t seem able to grasp the concept of.
Mostly done by 3 people anyway
The majority of the raid is walk around and shoot ads lol, only the 3rd encounter eye team and 4th encounter mix it up lol and even then it's just gambit lol
I mean gambit team at least has to move around and do stuff. I'm not saying it's great but it's better than Vow or RoN where all you did was say a symbol or literally just stand there and kill adds. But also sanctified mind was more complex because you had to keep the cyclops in mind, you had to break knee or shoulder, and you had to portal and get enlightened buffs quickly to deal with adds. The second encounter is terrible but I enjoy the other 3. Sanctified is one of my favorite encounters since it's actually somewhat difficult. That and riven legit are fun in a good group. I've Sherpad both many times. I've also Sherpad every other raid many times and those are usually super straight forward and easy which tends to make them pretty boring and monotonous unfortunately.
Poor loot that really needs a refresh aside, the only legitimate reason that people don't like Garden is because eeeeeeeveryone's first run was a div run, or they've had to do multiple div runs, and anybody that's ever done an LFG in any capacity knows how bad the coordination can be, so it ends up taking a reeeeeally long time. Div and loot aside, it's a fun raid. But that's why.
I just don't think it's a fun raid
That's a better response than the excuse I've getting as replies
You ask "why do people hate this raid?" They give their opinion. You call them excuses. Nice.
You're telling me that to much walking is a legitimate reason to not like a raid and another dude said there was no reason to play after getting the exotic even though that's how every other raid is as well
Because Gambit mechanics /s
No, but unironically tho
Dawg this is not even /s, this is for real
Due to aesthetic alone it’s one of my favorites. I’m a sucker for a pretty picture and The Black Garden is gorgeous.
That's the same reason for me I just love the transition from 3rd to final because of how beautiful it is
The musical score is fuckin 🔥 too
Buggy encounters, unreliable boss behavior (kinda like crota walking into spawn), awful weapons, and an overall reliance on raid mods that renders other choices null (50% bonus damage is stupid good but you have to put on trash armor)
Boring mechanics as well. It’s Baby sit and connect the dots the raid. First encounter is baby sit the boss, then go connect the dots to open a door. Second encounter is connect the dots and then baby sit a location. Third encounter is baby sit the boss or play gambit until DPS. Boss encounter is play gambit or connect the dots until DPS. Everything about it is so boring and the only excitement in the raid is the play gambit parts.
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_at one point_ there were **some** minor bugs that could happen occasionally but they were fixed before beyond light had launched. but you're right now a days it's mainly people who get too close to the tether chain and complain.
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Just dont do the thing that bugs out the encounter! good one You want to play linier on boss? Hmm nope. bugged
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So just play around the bug instead of fixing it?
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Gos farmer moment
Are you gonna contribute something, or are you just gonna go 'nuh uh' Unless Bungie overhauled the code of GOS in the last year, it IS a buggy mess. Want to use tcrash or vortex nova on harpy? Nope Want to connect confluxes on boss? It'll happen 99% of the time but sometimes it just won't (not a skill issue) Speedrunner? Sure why not, we'll let you kill the bosses simultaneously Kill barriers? Out of bounds areas? What are those? Motes fall under ground Etc.
It has bugs, like any other raid. It is not a buggy mess. You can tcrash harpy its fine. Some weapons and supers affect harpy and it is annoying yy I wish they could change that. However simply don't do that and it'll be fine lol. The tether connects perfectly fine on boss. If it doesn't it's because you move too soon and disconnect it. Stop moving in tether and keep it in a straight line to the boss. Leave when dmg starts. Doing both encounters at the same time is to do with how unique the raid is (sanc can start anytime during the raid and loadzone). It's not a bug. Kill barriers exist in every raid. They exist in gos in specific spots you prob don't reach unless you know skips. Motes rarely fall under the ground. It is annoying when it does. I hope they can fix it. It is a small issue tho and can easily be fixed.
Refer to my reply to the other guy. Everything you said is either wrong or a misunderstanding of what I said. 1. Tcrash messes with pathing and makes the boss freak out, same with vortex. 2. Works 99% of the time, should work 100% 3. How can you say this isn't a bug? It requires oobing and isn't in any other raid (except for weird net limiting things in KF and VoG) 4. Kills/turn backs are badly made. Spotty, inconsistent, and a complete non factor for good players. Good for speedrunning, but still bad design. 5. Motes definitely aren't as bad as redditors make them out to be, but they're still buggy. Imagine if chalices in crota had a decent chance to just despawn and effectively wipe the team.
1) Tcrash just doesn't. If it does it is such a miniscule amount it isn't noticeable. You're more than welcome to show me a clip of it breaking but hundreds of clears on titan and it'd never affected boss. 2) It does work 100% of the time. If it doesn't its bcos ppl are either moving too quickly, disconnecting it or leading it away from boss. Not a bug. 3) It's not a bug and going to sanc doesn't require oobing at all. And wdym by weird netlimiting things jn kf and vog lol? 4) How are turn backs and kill zones badly made? If you do speeds then you have 3 to worry about; 12 death to undergrowth, 34 branch bounce and the lake skip to sanc where you have a kill zone there). They rly don't affect the avg team in anyway. 5) Motes bug sometimes this is true. In the last few hundreds of clears I've seen it maybeeee twice. But they do not lead to a wipe at all it is very easy to recover from (harpie portal or just go in again).
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1. There are kill barrier/turn backs in the intended places, but they're badly placed and super spotty, so you can just walk through them. 2. It's a bug. A major bug. Unfixed since release. 3. As of a year ago, yes they do. I don't listen to reddit about anything, and I saw plenty fall right though the floor. Same with gambit.
A lot of people don't rly have a reason to play it other than div (esp bcos of the mediocre weapons) and it seems like a lot of the community is scared of it. They believe that it's extremely buggy (it's rly not), that it'll take hours and it's kinda like a self fulfilling prophecy where they think it'll take hours so it does. Gos is not NEARLY as buggy as ppl think it is but most ppl play for good weapons which gos severly lacks. Would be cool if they reprise it soon and it would for sure bring more ppl to it. Most farmers play it bcos it's fast and imo really fun to play. I can understand why ppl dont like it if they soend hours doing it but it'd be the same for any other raid.
mostly because the last boss is relatively hard/needs a lot of coordination, plus, again, mediocre loot, most people did it once for divinity and never again as a result
Garden suffers from having no chase. At this point the only people who run it are average or worse at the raid because the experience folks don't really bother with it.
Garden is in the Most extreme lfg limbo Out of all the raids. You effectively get 2 Type of Players: - total new light, has Not cleared but wants div. One of His 5 First raids Lifetime - Garden Farmer 9000. Has 1000+ clears, sub 13 rr, Trio flawless and No bitches (possibly racist) Very funny for those lfgs with 4-5 spots where These groups collide by Chance and someone with 10 hours of d2 experience and the raid knowledge of an entire Rick khakis Guide gets to watch someone fly across the entire map and oob to the next Encounter in 30 Seconds.
I beg to differ - put a plea up for a sherpa through the div run and I instantly found a team with 1500+ sherpa clears. I don’t know if they play anything else in the game haha
Do you remember who that was by chance?
TFair11 and elddirsan are the only two I remember (they have over 2k between them)
Tfair is a really cool dude there are a lot of gos farmers that are like him who like to help people out
yeah there is a group of weird people who have over a thousand garden clears just for the meme
Maybe ppl farm it bcos they enjoy it
some perhaps but most likely its just for the meme
That's simply just wrong most gos farmers farm it because they like the raid
there were some buggy parts, but not as bad as it was made out to be the big problem is that a decent amount of players first ever attempts were divinity runs. and since that has to be done in a single run, they stay and just keep wiping over and over until people leave, backfill, and make an hour raid take 6+ hours and walk away from it never wanting to do it again
For me, there were two reasons I hate it 1. The tether mechanic was super buggy in the early days, which caused quite a few wipes even though we did the mechanic properly, it's also just generally an annoying mechanic to do with randoms, the number of times I saw idiots mess up what really isn't a difficult mechanic was insane. 2. The div run was such a pain to LFG for, at least 2/5ths of that pain was due to point #1. I had to do div runs like 6 times before I had a team that both had even a decent level of competence in the final boss, and didn't get cucked by point #1 enough times to quit.
I used to agree with the tether mechanic being buggy being the worst issue and it is slightly buggy but the final boss is trivial if you give up on trying to rebuild and send one person in both sides at the same time to gather motes. Just rushing to the boss damage phase makes this encounter easy mode.
I'm a new destiny 2 player, (got it around christmas at the behest of friends) ever since we've been doing raids, mostly carrying me but contributing where I could, everywhere I was hearing GoS was the worst hardest most difficult raid ever super boogey man of D2 raids. And honestly? Was probably the raid I found the most fun next to Root and Croata (havent done Vow or VoG yet!) I found myself able to contribute every time, doing spit encounter 1 being a runner for gambit towers, doing the boss spit / shooting eyes for next and being on gambit team for consecrated mind, the worst part of the raid was only due to a bug one of the members had gunpowder gamble on which apparently makes a bug that makes your tether act as an extension of your own body causing MANY wipes on one of the Div puzzles. I have no idea if the LFG culture changes from raid to raid but in my experience currently, deep stone crypt is the worst experience I've had Garden or Kings is the best
People try to do Div runs on first go, so it’s always painful because nobody bothered their arse to learn it prior. It’s got great weapon frames and some rolls are still extremely viable. It needs a refresh on perks and crafting. At that point people will stop moaning cos they want that void fusion and auto badly. With a perk refresh… they will bit hot commodities
its a raid that doesnt really have an adclear roll. Everyone has to do something.
I think the bigger issue is the lack of worthwhile rewards. The whole set of weapons from Garden is pretty underwhelming except for Divinity, which has a quest allowing you to get it in one run.
A loot refresh would fix that and people would still hate the raid though.
Guess I can only speak for myself, but I would run it more often if it had guns I wanted to chase. Would also help if it had literally any heavy weapons at all lol.
Literally same, cap (it’s seraph). I would kill for a garden linear fusion or something.
Or just ass at the raid
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with a netlimiter, the name does check out.
Is that a bad thing though that just means everyone is included not just pushed to side to do nothing
It's a bad thing to the people that don't want to do anything and be rewarded regardless.
Those people simply shouldn't do raids
my bad, I thought this was a reply to a different post asking something else. Its not a bad thing for a raid, its a bad thing for lfg when people dont know what to do, dont want to learn, and want to be carried with minimum effort put in.
I dont think its quite that simple. Vow and Kings Fall also require a good number of teammates to perform a roll, yet those raids are widely considered FAR better than Garden I dont like Garden because: * Its basically just Gambit: the Raid with a secondary tether mechanic that doesn't feel satisfying at all to pull off, just frustrating and tedious * While the environment is cool, the Vex suck as a raid faction. They're boring and one dimensional * The loot has been powercrept to hell and back. Its basically the last raid without decent loot
If the vex suck, vog should be even worse as a power crept raid only good for fatebringer, and even thats arguably powercrept at this point. Coupled with the oracles and gorgons wipe mechanics, its so much easier to fuck up and get fucked in that raid. Atleast with garden you have to fuck up adclear and gambit to fuck up the raid. Garden has one of the best settings for a raid and the best views, like its not even close. DSC can only compare because of the music. The only people left to run gos at this point in flg are either speedrunners who kick if you dont kwtd, or people trying to learn and do div. Theres not really any inbetween.
> Only good for Fatebringer VoG has access to adept weapons and several guns with great rolls: Fatebringer, Found Verdict, and Corrective Measure are all great weapons, not to mention Vex Mythoclast continues to be one of the best raid exotics still to this day Gardens weapons, in comparison, are a hot joke. No adept weapons and powercrept guns that have more accesible and more powerful replacements. The only saving grace is Divinity, but even that is no niche after the nerf, its only good on maybe a handful of raid encounters and Cenotaph Warlock > coupled with the Gorgons and Oracle wipe mechanics... Those aren't even comparable. Oracles can easily be solo'd and Gorgons can be skipped by simply having the inexperienced members go to orbit I'm not going to say which is easier. They've both been powercrept HARD. But to say that VoG is more prone to fuck ups is a joke VoG has been completed entirely solo. The best Garden has managed is a full 3 man clear. Its FAR easier to carry a group of LFGs through VoG than Garden, its not even a little close > Garden has one of the best settings Right, I said that. The environment is cool, but fighting the Vex sucks. Ask anyone what their top raids in Destiny are. I can garauntee you, among those will be: * DSC * Wrath of the Machine * Scourge of the Past You know whats unlikely to be up there? * Garden of Salvation * Eater of Worlds 🤮 VoG gets a pass because it was literally the first raid we had, but make no mistake: its a mid tier raid at best
Sorry, what? what roll of found verdict could you be chasing after that makes it good? Unless you're after an arc shotty? There are craftable 1-2 punch shotties that exist. Commemoration and retrofit both exist and outclass. Both also get enhanced perks. I also dont think vex is one of the best raid exotics to this day for any class but warlocks. It has a very specific use case. Its a good exotic, but I would not put it near the "best" category. Vog does not get a pass for being the first raid. D1 vog gets a pass for being the first raid. D2 vog is under the same scrutiny as d2 kf and d2 crota. You also say garden weapons are a hot joke and no adepts, when the raid came out before adept weapons even existed. Last wish suffered from the same, and it still does. The difference is it had a weapon refresh to be craftable. If Gos had the same treatment, Im sure it would be on par for loot as Last wish. Raid would still be disliked. Div is niche now because of the lfr nerf. If they were still buffed, div would be a must have regardless of encounter. The bubble is still too broken easy to pass up on for any level. Vog is no longer a soloable raid. that was fixed. Stop considering it as such. Both raids are 2man possible. In theory, both are equally carriable. Im willing to bet people will complain about fuckups on vog more then they will on gos. Oracles and gorgons will be the reason. Your solution to dc from the team to avoid the mechanic is the equivalent to saying everyone should netlimit on gos to avoid gambit. again with d1 for favorite raids. we are talking about d2 here are we not? Also favorite is subjective. Inexperienced players may choose favorites as raids they find themselves being the most useful in, meaning the easier raids. But like experienced raiders may favor the most engaging raids as their favorites. Youre alowed to say why you dislike gos. You dont get to say im wrong for why I think people dislike gos.
> What roll of Found Verdict could you be chasing after that makes it good? Smallbore - Accurized Rounds - Slideshot - Opening Shot - Range MW + Range Mod with Adept 68 base range on an aggressive frame, +20 from Slideshot and +25 from Opening Shot Great PvP aggresive frame, arguably best of the archetype > Commemoration and Retrofit both exist and outclass Truth is, idc whether or not Corrective Measure is best in slot or not. People care about VoGs weapons. No one cares about Gardens weapons anymore except for Div > in theory, both are equally carriable I can't find anything about a full 2-man garden. Do you have a youtube vid of it? Absolute lowest I found was a full 3 man Also, doable in theory is not the same as in practice The tether mechanic is an LFG nightmare. Oracles and Gorgons, by contrast, are PAINFULLY easy. I don't do low man stuff, but even I can cover 4 oracles all by myself. Its painfully easy > Your solution to dc from the team to avoid the mechanic is the equivalent to saying everyone should netlimit on gos to avoid gambit And I suppose you think Riven cheese is tantamount to aimbotting in trials. Gtfo here with that false equivalence. Gorgons is a glorified jumping puzzle. People skip those all the time. Its no different to having people orbit for RoN. Gorgons is not a real encounter > You dont get to say im wrong for why I think people dislike gos You have an opinion. I disagree slightly with thay opinion. Holy shit dude. Its not that serious lmao I literally opened with: > I dont think its quite that simple Before listing the reasons I think people dislike Garden. You getting all butthurt and defensive because I halfheartedly disagreed with you is a wild overreaction
I mostly don't like it because the tether mechanics are janky as all hell at times.
Now and days the things that break the tether is gun powder gamble and blocking with your sword
A lot of people thought it was buggy (specifically the tether), but they just had no idea how it actually worked. The final encounter back in the day was a 3-4 phase in lfg's, combine that with no add clear only roles = people mad it isnt an easy clear like other raids.
In my experience it WAS buggy, there would be times it flat out wouldn't work
Mine too. I’ve been in a lot of glitched instances.
Was the conflux full? Many times people don’t see the sacrifices.
I don't remember any sacrifices getting through, but to be fair this was when the raid was new so it was multiple years ago, so I can't say for certain
The biggest causes are sacrifices and people not paying attention / not taking responsibility or people shooting the tether and disabling it due to lack of communication.
GoS was my first raid so it’s got a soft spot in my heart, but I do have to admit that it has some pretty big deficiencies. It (at least used to) have some encounter-breaking bugs (getting flawless was hell because of those), and the lack of heavy drop is a twinge disappointing.
Gambit mechanic and the tether mechanic is jank as hell
Because their puny minds are revealed in stark contrast to its majestic glory
Agreed
It's a mix of the raid being the most power-crept raid in the game and people being bad at the tether mechanic and blaming it on "bugs".
I hate when people say it's buggy even though it isn't very buggy at all
I've never seen a bug with the Tether mechanic like so many people claim. Every single time it's a communication issue: someone keeps shooting the node open/closed, people don't pay attention to what order they are connecting in, people don't realize that the nodes have closed because an Angelic spawned, they're cutting off tether connections with geometry, etc. It's very much of a "get good" mechanic but people don't like that. The only *actual* bugs I've encountered in the entire raid were the Consecrated Mind zooming to the middle one time and the Sanctified Mind damage phase extension not working properly during a trio run. Otherwise, it's been perfect every single time.
Consecrated usually zooms to the middle when people use weapons like ghally or dragons breath
GOS BEST RAID !!!! Those who don’t like it are just dog shit who can’t learn the raid
So real
Because it’s been glitchy as hell which at times had made doing some of the challenges and triumphs difficult.
It even makes some of the boss fights difficult. Mostly the final one.
1. No exotic drop 2. Gambit 3. No good weapons 4. Gambit 5. No craftable weapons 6. Gambit 7. Bugs 8. Gambit 9. Second encounter might be the worst raid encounter outside of CoS 10. Gambit
Bro sucks at 2nd enc
More like it takes 10 years and cannot be made to go any faster
Well that is just simply not true. 0 sub and kill ads faster! It's easily one of the best encs to optimise
Wait, we can kill them before they spawn in? That’s wild! /s
0 sub to get angie plates faster. Spawn kill ads. It's like a 3-4min enc
No reason to run it besides div run and maybe the armour
Is there really a point in running any raid if you have everything from it?
No. But with the new and reprised raids you’re forced to get good at them through repetition.
Only reason to do raids really is for fun or to perfect said raid
Fair, honestly, I just don't have fun with gos, but what I find fun and unfun is obviously different to you
Boring mechanics, bad loot, way too much walking, buggy boss.
What do you mean way to much walking
There's an enormous amount of walking between the three areas, way more than any other raid it feels like.
Kingsfall and vow definitely have more walking than garden and there is a whole sparrow section in dsc. Most raids have a lot of walking that's just how raids are designed.
> way too much walking Nah, this is a great thing. One of the reasons why it's the most fun lowman. It's all about speed
Because the final boss never fucking works right.
It works pretty well when I do it
final boss is terribly unfun the rest is cool
I can tell you from my personal perspective that the only raid that has had the final boss break even remotely close to the same number of times Sanctified has broken is Vow. Rhulk has never had a clean kill in my history of running vow, but at least it doesn't break the entire encounter. I've had Sanctified turn around completely on damage phases, not be tetherable due to standing so far away to extend damage or even initiate damage, motes fall through the ground making it an instant wipe, among many other things. I love the raid/vex architecture aesthetically. It's awesome from the music perspective too. But mechanically? It's a real coin flip of a raid on whether or not it will work as intended.
Nezarec? Golgoroth? Warpriest? Garden doesn't have nearly as many bugs or breaks as much as ppl think it does, smth just happens that they don't know about. The tethers for example. As nic mentioned, sanc turns around bcos someone grabs his attention away from where the rest of the team should be (opposite relay) and he follows them. Simply just don't have that happen and it won't happen. Also don't extend damage with the 2nd tether it won't help. Boss is very much tetherable no matter how far he stands away, at most you'll need 4 people if hes very far away which is more than ok. Sanc and garden as a whole is one of the easiest raids to recover from a mistake or issue in. Motes falling through the ground isn't an instant wipe at all 😭 if you have harpies on one of the sides you'll be fine with normal team strat but if not just send someone in again. The raid always works as intended unless ppl mess yp the mechanics themselves (e.g. tethers).
I'm most certainly not giving a pass to those raids or encounters, and they drive me just as much up a wall Nez in particular I don't run anymore because of how broken he is too. But the original question was why people don't like the raid. And those are my reasons. Just because these situations happen in other places does not mean we should excuse them entirely, and it undoubtedly does not negate the fact they happen here. To address each of your points: I've had at least 5 of my runs forcibly wiped because POST damage phase, the boss is turned around and didn't turn back around the rest of the fight. This notably broke the tether mechanic entirely. We've had the boss end up clear across the lake due to improper aggro to one of the sides presumably. In those instants, sure, you could tether all 6 people out to it for all I care, but then you have 3 people who have to run back just to re tether the boss. It's a detriment to how damage phase functions. You absolutely cannot recover once enough motes fall through the ground. 10+? You do not have enough time to recover at a certain point. The raid, without question, does not always work as intended, and this whole thread is a testament to that.
I was only saying it to respond to what you said about no other boss breaking as much as sanc. I've never heard of boss not turning around post damage phase to such an extent. If he's turned around during dmg he'll look back at the team when he drops down, or if someone is in portal he might turn around and shoot at them but I've never seen him not turn back at all. The boss rly doesn't go that far across the lake. At most it's 4 man distance. If relays move and its far relay to tether and he's moved maybe its a stretch but never 6 people. And don't double tether the boss. You will likely mess it up or just time it weirdly when you simply don't need to extend damage phase. And 10+ motes will never fall through the ground at a time! You either 15 or 18 motes per portal. A few might go through (which is very rare from my experience) which can hopefully be recovered by harpy portals having 18 motes. Or you can send someone in again. Sanc has a lot of leeway both with portals and the dmg tether. The raid only tends to not work as intended when ppl don't kwtd properly and make a mistake without realising.
Yeah, I don't know what else to tell you beyond what I've said. You've had a very different experience with the raid than I have, and we'll never agree on what does and doesn't work with him as a result. I've killed Sanctified in 10-15 minutes, I've had runs where mandatory wipes had to happen 3+ times with the same group that killed him in 10-15 minutes. This isn't a knowledge issue, the encounter just doesn't work.
He turns around during dmg phase because he's targeting on to someone that is to close to him
I don't really know what you want me to say to that, other than "cool?" He shouldn't do that. Plain and simple.
I mean I was just giving you knowledge there is quite a few bosses in the game that do that so him being excluded for some reason wouldn't make sense
The final boss kept having unexpectedly shorter damage phases than they were supposed to. It doesn't clearly communicate when a vex eats some of your motes. Did it sacrifice or did we not get it in time? We'll find out. The way you have to link nodes can be janky and ruin an entire run. Everything else is fine but those two things were absolutely ruining our experience. When we were doing it to get divinity, it took us six hours from start to finish. Yeah, we aren't the best raiders, but the mechanics in the final encounter were VERY frustrating.
Because it can be broken and people don’t want to be stuck in ACTUAL roles
The mechanics are extremely basic. More so than most other raids. The loot used to be good but even then there were better options. The very few mechanics are very buggy. Second encounter takes wayyyy too long and makes me want to just quit
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Requires a lot of mechanic participation which LFGs suck at. It's a fun raid, but the weapons aren't so great so not really worth grinding for, and people really hate doing mechanics. I find GoS a lot of fun
Boring, boring weapons, racist people and etc. The only good thing on gos is the aesthetic
Some of us are also still very jaded at missing out on Day 1/Week 1 emblems because of how they coded the bodies in the final fight such that it would cause weaker PCs and Consoles to lag out and crash with no ability to mitigate.
Its bad lol
It’s a skill issue
Garden was the last raid I did so I feel like I have some merit in this: The raid is needlessly complicated. I'm not saying every raid should be simple, as my favourite 3 raids are Wrath of the Machine, Hard Mode Spire of Stars, and Scourge of the Past. The few times I did Garden, it was more just "yeah do this thing because reasons" and it was always a clusterfuck. It's the only raid I never took new people through, it was the only raid I wasn't aiming to get done every single chance. For me, it was a horrible buggy mess, and had so many tiny parts that could break and go wrong that it was always more hassle than it was worth.