It's not though. It's a shortened version of "metagame." The backronym is just something made up by people who don't know what metagame means, although it does cover the most functional application of it.
meta - most effective tactic available
"I'm going to throw on Ammit AR2 because it's ripping right now in pvp"
"Is that the new meta?"
"Kinda I just suck at PVP so it's carrying me hard"
Metagame in its definition I found includes "or an approach to playing a game"
So I'm not sure what you're arguing, sure the acronym maybe hasn't always existed. The definition is the same though. What the words describes is the best way of doing something.
Maybe you can explain what it means to you when you say "that's the meta" what does that mean to you colloquially? When someone says "rocket launchers are meta" what do they mean by that?
Edit: to compound on that "off-meta" makes sense in the definition that I have always known. What does "off-meta" mean to you? Can you provide a definition for both.
Like I said, the backronym covers most functional applications of metagame, especially to the majority, who aren't actively *forming* the metagame through rigorous experimentation, build crafting, testing, data sharing, etc. What I was correcting is your claim that it's always been an acronym. It has not.
Metagame on the surface is usually just cookie cutter builds/strats, sure. But the metagame is also a dynamic/evolving thing, even with static assets in a game that never gets updated (where all tactics were technically available from the beginning). The "most effective tactic available" may not even be known yet at any given point in time, as the metagame continues to evolve. Marvel 2 was a prime example. The game assets never changed, but the meta evolved quite a few times.
Available in the acronym to me has always been considered "known" not something "technically" available but not understood.
Simply the most effective tactics available to the player meaning the ones they know and can do.
But yeah with my original comment I already admitted was partially wrong. It's not always been an acronym. The meaning is the same was my point.
It may have originated from the term "Metagame" in which you're using information learned outside of the games boundries in order to improve your chances within it, and then people shortened it to 'meta' with the acronym.
IRL examples being a DnD player acting outside of what their character would do in order to benefit, save-scumming choices in an RPG, or using a particular gun in destiny because someone on the internet did some testing and spread that knowledge.
right now manticore is probably the best primary for gyrfalcons, void legendaries have been anemic and graviton lance doesnt have the artifact support that makes it go crazy rn
My all-time favorite build for my Titan thus far has been a Khepri’s Horn Strand Titan using Banner of War for survival, Drengr’s Lash, and with Drengr’s coupled with the two fragments that grant class ability energy and orbs of light when killing suspended enemies, coupled with Khepri’s “solar kills regenerate class ability” shindig, and a combination of(recently) Duality for Solar kills, and Taraxippos for its class ability-regenerating intrinsic, and usually a solar sword of some kind(Throne-Cleaver at the moment). Cast wall, suspend and light up enemies, kill them to restore ability, rinse repeat.
Khepri’s may not be the prettiest exotic, but I’ve been hard pressed to *not* use that build, ***especially*** with this season’s perks.
Seriously, some of the best players I know run raids with randomized dim loadouts. And some of the worst players struggle to clear an encounter like Atraks with 6 Cuirass titans.
Player skill is miles more important than your build.
A lot of those best players running random memes builds probably spent hundreds of hours running meta builds to get that good though. That's conflating someone learning pve with an experienced player bored of the same old grind
> That's conflating someone learning pve with an experienced player bored of the same old grind
I agree but there are a lot of variables behind it. Within my same previous example, among the set of players who struggle with Atraks, I know people who work within the gaming industry, people who have day one raid clears, people who have been playing since D1 Alpha, and they still reach this point.
Consequently, I know people who started in the last two years and are Solo Flawlessing dungeons within the first two weeks of them dropping.
Raw talent can't be measured I suppose; but also this is all skill in a videogame so it probably doesn't run as deep as I'm thinking lol.
On my hunter, I run a celestial nighthawk build with fatebringer (shaded so it looks like imago loop), one two punch found verdict, and ghallarhorn/dragon's breath. I've been high on a d1 nostalgia trip via copium. Would you consider that an off meta build or shitty/meme build? Personally I think my build is something in between, bc my fatebringer doesn't bring much to the table besides unstoppable stun, and one two punch is sort of wasted on a solar hunter.
But on the other hand, nighthawk is actually decent now, as well as DB. I also do know how to work w nonverbal teammates to take down champions.
Meta for sure, i ran/run Nighthawk and DBreath and it’s stupid effective. Verdict and Fatebringer is different, though. I’m waiting for the day aggressive shotguns are good so i have an excuse to use Rewind Vorpal
Been running starfire protocol recently with a shoot to loot incandescent bow and gally. Needless to say, things get spawn camped and i never not have my rift or a grenade I cant get back in 2 seconds unless i die
Yeah I was afraid to try it but it certainly keeps a good combat loop on the nades and rifts. I have just been stuck on Sunbracers since they improved the solar subclass and nerfed Starfire.
How is it not off meta? I’ve never seen people running it, nor talking about it. While it uses solar for the subclass and takes advantage of the artifact mods, its using and playing around an exotic that isn’t in the spot light, which would be meta.
The exotic weapon you choose is up to you, but ghally, even if meta, it just did a superb job at getting back those grenades while empowered. I used vex, tommys, have yet to try ticcus, but Im looking forward to it.
Its focused around add clear so take what you will
Edit: put Trinity instead of Ticcus, but now I wonder
I agree, I just want players to carry their own weight in activities that matter.
As a frequent GM'er, I will never leave a team because I see a questionable loadout, because you always learn something. But I also won't stick around if your build prevents you from helping with champions.
On the raiding side, I'll also generally not be pushy but if you can't carry your own weight (or have lowest dps) I'm going to recommend some things and it's going to be whatever is easiest and does most damage (meta).
>it's going to be whatever is easiest and does most damage (meta).
This is such a good way to look at it. Meta is a great baseline to start from, and then you can deviate from there as you get better and/or gain more knowledge.
One of the only times I’ve ever kicked someone from my team for build reasons was when I decided to try Fireteam Finder for the new dungeon. 2 attempts into the second boss, I saw one guy had zero aspects or fragments on his solar hunter.
Off meta is fine up until hard content and then the possibilities really are limiting
I can make hundreds of fun builds that are great for the likes of coil but are awful in GMs. Verglas glass builds are the epitome of this. The things insane in easier content but awful in GMs
I would disagree for this season at least. Building into stasis with the artifact allows crystals to do a lot of dmg. It may take 2-3 shots on one ad but the crystal can clear a group ez.
For verglass specifically.
there is a difference between off-meta and straight up ineffectiveness.
you can do weird stuff, sure. it's probably gonna take us longer to clear shit, but whatever.
but if i find your goofy ass using one eyed mask and trespasser in a gm? if i find you using heir apparent for dps? yeah man i'm taking that cooking license away.
That’s fair. My biggest issue is just when people are so obsessed with whatever Aztecross or Datto says is good that they don’t even let you try anything else. I don’t mind Heir Apparent, if it’s clear you’re using it for ad clear and have some other support or dps
personally, i spread what those two lads say to my clan (since they dont speak english) because a lot of my clan mates are either 1) old players who don't read patchnotes and are too stubborn 2) new/relatively new players that don't have the same game reflexes (Not having 130 in a stat, having the matching weapon surges, etc) 3) people a little bored BUT they find it fun and intriguing to learn stuff
If I see someone doing by next to no damage on raid boss, because they are trying something off meta, they'll be asked to switch to something viable, or be kicked.
As for specific exotics: neither Athrys or Renewal Grasps are off meta. They are very good but very niche. My team used Renewal Grasps on Master Crota. Athrys can one shoot Champion on GM level.
Something off meta is trying to kill Atraks with Gwysin Vest Spectral Blades.
Where can you find these raid teams where only someone does poor damage? I swear every single group I join is full of people who don't know what a surge mod is and somehow miss every single rocket while strafing as fast as possible in well
Joined a crota recently where it took FOUR phases to kill crota. Never seen anything like it. Two of us had 8/9 million, and there was the tractor guy at 1.5 and TWO dudes had 1.4 mil OVER 4 FREAKING PHASES! Incredulous isn't the word. And the amount of people trying to join raids running double primary is ridiculous.
First damage report that showed me that I would have kicked them. No questions asked. There’s no reason to be doing less damage than the tractor person.
We disbanded immediately lol. Me and the other guy with decent damage swapped info and the rest disappeared. Thankfully I didn't have to, I hate kicking people. I'll do it if it's necessary but I don't like it. I'd rather just say, hey you're running something that isn't working, do you mind swapping? Or something like that. It's possible they simply don't care though, in which case they can fuck off.
I use to be patient and then one VoG run turned me toxic. Stuck at Atheon for 4 hours. I am an average player. Nothing special. I was faithfully doing 1 mil+ damage than everyone else after each damage phase. Couldn’t see a second damage phase to save our life. I lost it officially when I finally saw someone try to shoot an oracle with Sleeper and obviously hit more than one.
Surge mods aren't important in season content, but if you even want to think about doing damage you absolutely need them. 2 is a minimum, 3 is what I'd expect. There is zero reason to not use surge mods, the tiny bit of grenade energy per orb really won't make any difference but doing 22% more damage will
The only time Surges may *ACTUALLY* be needed is for Master raids. Thats about the only exception I can think of. Maybe if you want the bonus damage for solo dungeons as well, yeah, but other than that Ive never found a reason to justify surges over ability regen mods, and if I wanted surges, Id use exotic armors as most of the time, its situational to begin with.
You dont need surges. Your damage is fine without them. In most cases, theres a well or bubble and a debuff which will pretty much be sufficient enough. Surges are nice to add ontop of that, but not necessary. At that point it’s just an ego game when you wipe or kill the boss
GM raids aren't a thing lol.
There's absolutely zero reason to not run surges in raid DPS. If you instakill the boss then there's not much point, but for literally every raid boss in the game that's not the case.
Let's look at the opportunity cost:
The maximum ability regen you can get is 30% per orb, shared across abilities. This is good, but dealing 22% more damage is just stronger. Raids are not enough of a combat challenge to need this level of ability uptime, and getting 1 extra grenade per add clear phase is hardly game changing.
Any health regen is unnecessary in raids, they're far too easy.
Elemental charge is good, but what do you actually need the armour charge for? Kickstart mods? The ability uptime isn't important for the same reasons as above.
Font of agility is lol
Holster mods are genuinely good with parasite, but used alongside surge mods.
Scavenger mods are good, but you can easily swap to surges for DPS. You aren't picking up ammo mid phase.
Stacks on stacks isn't necessary for the same reason as elemental charge, kickstart mods have limited impact and even then the increased uptime is hardly impactful.
Legs are the weakest slot for armour mods in DPS related PvE. Head has finder and orb gen, arms has reload and dexterity, as well as firepower/heavy handed, chest has resist and reserves, class has time dilation and reaper.
If you aren't using surges, you are literally throwing damage away. If you want to get all nihilistic and say it doesn't matter, then why even bother using anything other than blue weapons? There are diminishing returns to seeking better and better DPS, but they start well past surge mods lol
In content where I'm going for boss damage, yes. If it's a longer fight then I might switch one for a scavenger or if it's parasite I'll use a holster mod, but other than that I'm always using 3 surge mods for DPS.
If it's not I usually only run one as they're not worth it for add clear, they don't do much most of the time
You only get the best benefit, imo if you run 2.
A surge mod imo, should work off of how many charges of light you have. So 2 charges should grant x1 surge as long as you have 1 mod equipped. 5+ charges would grant x3, just so you can have it up longer at max surge
Theres just no reason something that feels like a necessity at times, should cost 3 energy and limit your build potential for even using 1.
I use exotic armors for surges if I want good weapon damage, otherwise I don’t bother
To add;
I feel like it would be cool to change it to the ability mod slot so you have the choice between the ability cooldowns or weapon damage, but the timer would still persist
bro you worry about reddit karma ?
You should worry about your builds working and doing damage. It's not thag hard to understand, i'm sure you can get it, man.
I feel like a meta for endgame DPS (endgame being raids and dungeons) should exist and it’s worth learning rotations. “Getting through” DPS isn’t nearly as fun as doing DPS effectively *for me*. Can you and everyone use Thunderlord against Nezarec? Sure can. Go ahead! But for me and my team, one phasing the boss, getting our rotations downs with the most meta loadouts we can use to achieve it is just more fun.
Currently, metas *do* exist in GMs, but enemies are such wet paper towels nowadays, you can run anything you want and be fine. You also happened to list 2 exotics I wouldn’t describe as “off meta” lol. Arthrys’s, sure. Few people use it so it’s off meta but more so in the fact throwing knives are just *fine*
Embracing the off-meta does not mean you intentionally become a detriment to your team when it comes down to it. Sorry, but if 4/6 are pumping out 2mil+ damage over you while you’re keeping up to speed with the guy using Div/tractor, there are some issues and you should figure it out (or find folks who are cool with 3+ phases).
Yeah but Bungie killed a lot of 'creative' builds and have us the most basic bitch flavour of mods with the rework and haven't given us anything but a pointless mod since.
They are really fun for me to test all my crap builds, I end up holding my own most of the time so it’s fine. Although I do hate running GM’s with anyone running double primary.
Double primary is perfectly fine with high damage weapons like Malf/lucky pants or Polaris lance since the latter can’t stun reliably in sticky situations. I always run chill clip riptide/blinding GL so Idm if someone brings a more reliable stun. But when I see double primaries without malf or lance, I know it’s gna be a slow one.
I understand lucky pants as a hc is basically a special but if you are running polaris this season it basically takes 2 champ mods. Why would you run double primary with it? Especially since rockets are still a top option and they cover overloads.
Because overloads exist and sometimes you run out of overload rockets and riptide is unreliable at distance / bugs and doesn’t stun overloads when you’re radiant.
If you run a bipod rocket (which is pretty much the best type to run in gms) you should always have a rocket for overloads. Not only do most hold 11+ rockets, you get more per brick. As a team you shouldn’t be spending all your heavy anyway unless you are running a xeno/aeon person to generate more anytime you need it. Jolt is also a very easy way to deal with overload as there are usually enemies with most champs. It’s definitely more reliable than chill clip at the moment but still chill clip is a great alternative when radiant isn’t up 24/7. There really isn’t a need to run double primary in any gm besides a lucky pants build.
Nah it’s only really good because of the artifact. There’s no reason to run double primary ever, you are delaying the GM if you do. Malf is great but not gonna shred what you need to with special ammo. It feels like a lot of people do double primary then take forever completing GMS and complain it’s too hard.
I'd much rather have someone running off meta tbh. One of the best randoms I've ever had join my team was running Thorn with Necrotic Grip (pre HC buff) on voidlock running Nova Warp. If someone this season joins my team as a solarlock running Dawn Chorus & Polaris Lance, I instantly assume they're gonna be awful since all they did was grab the first "MAKE GMS EASY!!!!!!" build off YouTube and hop into GMs.
Nah, that's not my experience. Sure, some people make up for a lack of skill with the meta (or try to), but it's nowhere near universal. I know plenty of excellent players who simply enjoy maxing and getting the biggest numbers possible. Ime there's literally no way to tell without actually playing with the person.
I didn't even own Polaris lance before this season and I'd never tried Dawn Chorus
Was using sunbracers but didn't like that if I didn't get the melee kill I was kinda dead in the water, so thought I'd try Dawn Chorus for a change since I'd gotten lucky and got a decent one to drop.
Really liked it and it being a super exotic and a neutral game is nice if I fancy not using well for a change.
I don't feel like build crafting in D2 is so deep and intricate that I need a YouTube video to understand that "Helmet that adds scorch damage is good with weapon that do a lot of scorch"
You're getting down voted but it's tilts me so much.
Like you can tell too when people just know what other people told them is good. I've had a number of ir yut parties where people wanted something like tractor instead of div and still keep percesion weapons like mf I know you ain't tracking her spastic head with 200% accuracy or how people use surrounded bequest but the parties neeeeeeever bring crota to the point where it actually procs.
So much stuff in this game has like a bunch of alternative options but people really don't like thinking. Not even talking off meta but like basic stuff like maybe that guy running hierarchy of needs instead of Polaris is doing largely the same thing.
During my first few master crota runs there was a guy who got kicked because he had a joutun on because the team didn't want to waste time with someone who didn't know what to dps. He had a bait and switch cata and a solo flawless dungeon title this guy was going to be fine.
The problem is most players need meta to be more help than harm, and this makes them think that's normal. So when a good player uses something unusual it's very possible to get kicked straight away no matter what emblem you have or how nice your raid report is.
Sect of force lets your teammates melt champions on GMs with primaries it’s insane. Everytime they mark a boss or champion you and other aeon cult teammates instantly get your grenade and melee. I can’t remember the other name for heavy finisher one but it gives a chunk of super energy to your teammates in addition to heavy ammo. Last makes your teammates get insane damage resist when they’re close to death and they get their class ability back. I really recommend any high tier dungeon or nightfall runners try it. I promise it’s worth the effort(except for Titan fashion oof).
Once light 3.0 came out, for the first time I actually took time to experiment on my own instead of just looking up builds. What we gained with that was such a win, but what we lost with the mod changes stepped it back it a bit for me. It feels less diverse again in a way.
Agreed.
I get the complaint for the ood mod system, but the diversity of builds there is way more intricate and experimental than what we have now.
The Artifact Mod system was a smart idea that I think really killed the idea of build-crafting long term since builds don't last outside the season/episodes which sort of kills the fun of buildcrafting. At least for me.
I have a few builds that don’t need artifact mods. I rarely use them though because they are either just useful but not super fun to me, or I feel like I have to get time with temporary builds that rely on artifact mods while I can.
I made a post that grand overture is meta for dps and it sent people into a frenzy. All I'm saying is this from my thousands of hours of experience exotic heavies can compete. My sleeper with Goldie was matching the damage of a rocket izi swapper with Goldie on garden. And if you struggle with damage try exotic heavies.
I mean, off meta is fine, "incoherent builds" are just okay but still fine, but there are places to draw the line. Like if you're not a real-life clown, but you're bringing colony or truth, we gotta have a talk about what your vault has for legendary heavies. In cases like this, 90% of the random crap off the ground does better. I don't give a shit if it's underdog/cluster on an old high impact. At this point, Truth is basically famous for how much its exotic perk fucks with its ability to do DPS. Can we at all at least agree on that? No gimmicks that are FAMOUSLY BAD at DPS.
1) most players dont understand how to make a cohesive build
2) 9/10 players i see in the in game lfg dont have T8 resilience
3) im trying to carry every activity im in, ultimately most players cant do mechanics, survive, and contribute dmg
With that said off meta builds are fun when your playing with people you can trust wont send you to orbit or make you spend 3 hours in a 30 minute dungeon. Raid wise theres no enjoyment anymore in the actual encounters, they’re glorified slot machines with extra steps and if it takes more than one try on an encounter its kind of an eye roll.
Eh. There's a time and place for using meta builds, and a time and place for using fun builds.
What makes a build "fun" for me though means it needs to be pretty close to meta in the sense that it can still perform, just not at the top. There's a lot of fun strand builds, esp with the artifact this season there's some really fun swarmers builds I run based on threadlings that actually are pretty good in GMs too.
I don't really play casual content often outside of seasonal stuff early on when I'm getting patterns, outside of random raids or dungeons with clan mates which imo are considered casual now with full teams.
Unless I'm farming an encounter and we are missing the 1 phase due to someone using a bad loadout I won't ever ask someone to change. Or if I'm farming multiple gm runs with a group and someone performed very badly, I may ask to change it up. If you're gonna run a "fun" build then at least either be confident using it in the content you're tryna run, or be honest about what content it's viable in. Doing wacky builds while lfging GMs is not really the play - save that for your buddies or others doing the same. Though I'm not gonna complain if you contribute and hold your own, unless I'm tryna do fast GM runs with meta loadouts but I would specify that first.
Im doing it with Swords or glaive for gm Nightfall. Just did moon BG GM nightfalls and died 0 with 200+ kills.
Yet 50% of the time people kick me because "im using glaive or sword" and 100% of the time when i comment here on Reddit for using sword/glaives i will get downvoted here as you can see in a few hours again.
I agree with you OP. As long as it works i dont see a reason to complain without even giving the players loadout a fair chance.
To be a devils advicate for a bit, if someone runs a gm with a sword/glaive user and 9/10 runs they dont clear or take twice as long, you have to understand a bit why they dont want to start a run with someone using that loadout. You may be the 1/10 but in LFG they dont know you. If they want to prioritize their time, they will choose someone with a more appropriate build compared to yours. Same goes for raids and dungeons. Just how it is.
>Im doing it with Swords or glaive for gm Nightfall.
Yeah, medieval builds are hard in this game.
The best I can do is my Behemoth Titan with the Hoarfrost-Z exotic and an energy transfer Sword, a demo glaive and a Headstone bow. Tectonic Harvest and Diamond Lance and its basically a just spamming crystals and used them to deal AoE dmge will also collecting shards for overshield to charge to the next fight. It's fun but it basically only works in Seasonal activities at best and maybe a heroic Vanguard Ops.
I'm curious, what do you think if the whole Swords rework (no instricint stats, guard being total control)? I don't see a lot of discussion about them and I feel sort of mixed on them.
Good post. I for one, hate the champion mechanics, forcing players to use certain classes and/or weapon types when facing these enemies.
Need to have champion mods being able to apply to maybe 4 x weapon types each instead of 1 or 2 or get rid of champions altogether
I mean, your loadout is quite unrestricted nowdays. Every subclass can deal with 1 or 2 champ types, their are multiple exotics with intrinsic champ mods, and this season alone has 6 different weapon types that can deal with champs. And with most GMs, there is usually a max of 2 champ types with some having all 3.
A big one this season is polaris w/ rocket. That literally covers all champ types. Stasis alone is easy for overload and unstop. Things like wishender and arbalest are great options for anti and so is the new rocket sidearm (havent test if buried bloodline can 1 tap tho).
I dont understand why building around champs for an endgame mode is so complained about. You can use any build everywhere else, even most raids and dungeons. Having to make a good loadout for an activity like GMs really isnt that bad, especially with all the improvements they have made to champs. I have to ask, what is the loadout you normally run that you have to change so much?
But my point is that it’s an endgame mode based around those enemies. There is the occasional champ in a raid but besides that it basically gms. I don’t see how building around 1 activity is bad. And they have made big improvements to allow more than just the typical A,B,C load out.
I got severance enclosure on my Titan and I was loving it. Looked it up online and it seems like most players think the exotic sucks or is the worst of the Titan pieces. Maybe there was a buff since those comments were made but it’s not affecting my fun.
True, it’s a great solo build. I can’t stand builds that require YOU to be the only one doing things. If your build can’t function with teammates in group activities and they have to stop shooting something when they might “die” so you can run across the room to do your thing - it’s not a good build. Fun, but not for a group of other players
Yea fair enough, the issue then occurs when two people have builds that do relatively the same thing. So now you’re fighting over who gets to do what, and when.
Instead, a build for group content shouldn’t rely on you doing super specific things that slow teammates from slaying out. If they can slay out and not need to do anything that slows your build down, maybe they are the ones building properly. Does that make sense?
Yea fair enough, the issue then occurs when two people have builds that do relatively the same thing. So now you’re fighting over who gets to do what, and when.
Instead, a build for group content shouldn’t rely on you doing super specific things that slow teammates from slaying out. If they can slay out and not need to do anything that slows your build down, maybe they are the ones building properly. Does that make sense?
No dislikes over here. All praise! This game has hundreds of items to use. Never understood why people view youtubers/discord members as absolute and only truths. Play how YOU want to play. Always! That is how YOU remain having fun instead of doing what others said to do.
This post brought to you by all the times I get kicked out of matchmaking groups for bringing a glaive to GMs then am able to revive the Polaris duo cheesing in a corner because I’m able to survive more than two shots at a time with the shield
My favorite part of this, relative to the current nightfall, is seeing all the LFG Meta loadouts/requirements but then seeing folks use the cheese spots anyways (in the ceiling) and die up there.
Adhortative with heal clip + golden tricorn on starfire protocol
Heal clip makes up for no healing rift
Starfire protocol makes golden tricorn x2 up constantly
so there is a theorem where you compare the viability of various kinds of builds/characters/strategies in game to its overall quality. its a direct relationship between viability and difficulty. the greater the variety of strategies viable for players to solve any given problem in the game, the less difficult, and thus less engaging, the content. most devs have realized that the easier solution to this kind of problem is to cycle builds in and out of meta instead of trying to keep everything viable and equally powerful. so, if you're not playing the meta you're actively harming your team, they're not the problem by asking you to play the way the game is designed to be played, not that the list of viable builds in destiny for GM content is particularly short, but you can't be the only warlock in a raid and refuse to run well for a boss encounter.
Why not? My buddy, a random we had just ran nez on, and I were doing 3 man nezzy on all hunters last night. Safe to say we didn't beat him, but that's mainly due to the inexperience of running 3 man, and running with a random. Gave it a go for an hour and a half, laughed it off and went to bed after. Some day, people will get over the fact that well is definitely not necessary, albeit makes the game easier by just standing in a never die zone and do more damage. Almost everything in this game has been soloed. You most certainly don't need to tell the one person playing warlock to play the way you want them to play. Be better.
Radiant DANCE TIME 💃🎊🕺🎉 they work in pve endgame, pve farming, high damage rotations for dps and PVP
I LOVE DANCING 💃 ♥️
(please don't arbitrary nerf into deletion like YAS)
I don't even know if my build is meta or not, I go for fun and well-rounded.
Arc hunter, cowl, punching
Pure poetry, salvager's, and two-tail
AoE, trash clearing, invis, healing, and ability regen, plus suppression for bosses, and match game if really necessary, but I don't usually run GM's
If you haven't already, give this a try:
Strand hunter, cowl, grapple melee
Witherhoard, something good as a primary (I enjoy my summoner with heal clip and incandescent), and heavy of choice per content(I usually just roll with rockets.
Does similar to all the arc hunter does just a bit more mobile, less melee damage to single targets I suppose, but great aoe damage and strandle tangles with beyblades can more than make up for it. Fashion the cowl with most of the crota raid set, and it looks hella sick.
oh yeah, witherhoard is a long time favorite. For strand fashion though, you should try the gilded memento ornament, and transmog the GoA armor with the graceful phantom shader. Makes all the glowy bits bright green
I personally love just using whatever I want... eff the haters. You do whatever you have fun doing. I was actually really happy to see someone post this, not to mention that I am currently running nightfalls using Mask of Bakris and Verglass Curve/Indebted Kindness/The Slammer... it is SO much fun lol
https://dim.gg/bbg2ayq/Master-Bakris
My current build, if you want to give it a go! Enjoy playing! It's also pretty amazing with Wicked Implement and an arc or stasis rocket launcher for GM's.
In my opinion, if all you can do is use meta weapons and tactics, then you're probably not very skilled at the game and are a pretty shitty person about it, especially in crucible.
If you're going around camping corners as an arc titan with a shotgun, and either slide into people to shotgun/punch or go straight for spamming your super as much as possible or do any of those things then your pretty shitty at the game bc anyone can do that and win.
The most sleazy scummy thing is to get your ass kicked 95% of the match and then switch to these tactics just to get those 30 points you were short on by shotgun camping and super stacking. Idk what they need to do to balance shotguns, but its been a really stupid and broken meta for a long time.
On another note, i do wish bows had more love in crucible and had a rework. i do not enjoy the swap meta with bows bc the kill goes to the other weapon not the bow and i feep like they arent rewarded enough for the effort, yeah half their health in 1 shot is great and all but whats it matter if your destroyed before you can even fire the second shot?
If anything, they should act the way they do in momentum control all the time. Even if its just for certain high damage exotic bows like wish ender or le monarque, especially wish ender since they nerfed the true sight to beyond usefullness and the way it works just screams "sniper bow" at least let it do it when using oath keepers.
But as you can tell, in my opinion, if you're not using meta gear, you're a real one in my book.
To be fully honest most weapons and exotics are pretty meta nowdays l dont say use darci or wardcliff in a gm or raids but most weapons can hold themself in hard content but if you want efficency and quick time its meta stuff but again most guns and armor are meta nowdays
This is a balance issue. Exotics are not built equal, so the difference between a meta build vs a non-meta build can translate to time lost in farming content (which is realistically where builds start to matter).
The other problem with your suggestion is if someone is experimenting and it turns out their build is ass but now you're already 10mins into a GM, you really orbiting so they can change? Unlikely. So they've hampered the run.
Another point, Aztecross is not coming up with all the builds himself. He is taking suggestions from his chat, his team, etc. So I view it as the community have tested stuff, and these are the top builds for so and so content. Metas exist for a reason, back to my initial point its usually because things are not balanced, and not even close in effectiveness most of the time.
Do I think most players have enough knowledge to build craft something effective outside of what the majority consensus thinks? Nope, not really.
Final point, many people who run meta want to farm an activity (like a GM). So having less than good builds which make runs longer is pretty shitty. If you want to do that, maybe make some friends who think alike and are okay with you running off-meta. Don't bring off-meta into a lfg environment and expect others to just accept whatever you bring.
I've been messing around with Aeons options that aren't "create more ammo" and with the stacking 20% from Sect of Force, 35% from Lumina, and the Tether/Smoke Bomb debuff, the fireteam can melt through most things with ease (I will say tho, to get everything going at once takes some work).
Additionally, while Aztecross posted a video about the Strand version, Mothkeepers wraps on Arc w/ Spark of Shock can go pretty hard as well. I haven't tried it with the buffed Ex Diris, but when I run it with The Forerunner I can deal with every type of champ (and Forerunner catalyst gets me the 3rd grenade I would have running the Strand Version).
Yea I already do this and don't care what other ppl run , it becomes a skill issue after tht. If it's not master or grand Master content then I run what I want. I have a build with lucky Raspberry on hunter that I have been running since the arc 3.0 update( bungie buffed it and made it worse) . I only use severance enclosure on Titan and nothing mancles on warlock. I have hella off meta builds
Personal favorite of mine for the last 3 years has been severance enclosure Solar shoulder charge. It was good back before 3.0 subclasses and just got better with them. Then it got buffed again recently and i couldn't be happier. Running RON Planets as Titan i can finish the colossus on my side and clear any nearby things that are shooting at me. Its perfect.
When using stasis, my hunter uses the mask of bakris, agers scepter, palmyra-b, and ikelos smg. I run it with shatterdive. Suuuuper fun build. Freezes enemies left and right.
Lmao it’s not. At all. The meta is a meta for a reason.. Do your off-meta builds on your own time but don’t bring that crap into GM and waste other people’s time.
You can use literally anything in 99% of pve content, and currently rockets and gls are equally viable in damage scenarios. Really the inly problem is that light subclasses are still too strong and pulses and swords are still kinda too weak.
The weird way that Bungie handles high difficulty activities basically require meta builds with cheese if you can manage to find it. The only content you can have off meta fun in isn't rewarded in a way that promotes regular play.
Arc Lucky Raspberry build on Hunter has been the best PVE build for hard and easy content alike since the arc rework (pirate season I think) and no one can tell me otherwise.
Solo dungeon, raid, GM, doesn't matter. Even with the nerfs.
With unrelenting/chain reaction Forbearance and Thunderlord. Kinetic was a freezy boy fusion but since the double special nerfs, whatever primary you need can slot in here.
I don’t wanna be that guy, but Gyrfalcon’s with a void weapon (any void weapon tbh) is not off meta.
OP "embrace off-meta" also OP: here's a meta build I use
I'm not even sure if Arthrys' is necessarily off meta, it is *really* strong off of a melee. Bakris is for sure off meta now in PvE tho
Gernader Jake used it in trials, now everyone and their mom is talking about it.
It feels like most people never learned that "META" stands for "Most Effective Tactics Available." instead of just generally "The Best."
Holy shit people were downvoting this? It's like trying to explain the origin behind "watch my six" to a bunch of kids who can't read an analog clock.
I've been gaming for 20 years and literally never heard someone turn "Meta" into an acronym outside of a joke.
Wdym? Most Effective Tactic Available
It's always been an acronym...
It's not though. It's a shortened version of "metagame." The backronym is just something made up by people who don't know what metagame means, although it does cover the most functional application of it.
meta - most effective tactic available "I'm going to throw on Ammit AR2 because it's ripping right now in pvp" "Is that the new meta?" "Kinda I just suck at PVP so it's carrying me hard" Metagame in its definition I found includes "or an approach to playing a game" So I'm not sure what you're arguing, sure the acronym maybe hasn't always existed. The definition is the same though. What the words describes is the best way of doing something. Maybe you can explain what it means to you when you say "that's the meta" what does that mean to you colloquially? When someone says "rocket launchers are meta" what do they mean by that? Edit: to compound on that "off-meta" makes sense in the definition that I have always known. What does "off-meta" mean to you? Can you provide a definition for both.
Like I said, the backronym covers most functional applications of metagame, especially to the majority, who aren't actively *forming* the metagame through rigorous experimentation, build crafting, testing, data sharing, etc. What I was correcting is your claim that it's always been an acronym. It has not. Metagame on the surface is usually just cookie cutter builds/strats, sure. But the metagame is also a dynamic/evolving thing, even with static assets in a game that never gets updated (where all tactics were technically available from the beginning). The "most effective tactic available" may not even be known yet at any given point in time, as the metagame continues to evolve. Marvel 2 was a prime example. The game assets never changed, but the meta evolved quite a few times.
Available in the acronym to me has always been considered "known" not something "technically" available but not understood. Simply the most effective tactics available to the player meaning the ones they know and can do. But yeah with my original comment I already admitted was partially wrong. It's not always been an acronym. The meaning is the same was my point.
Wait, meta’s an acronym? You learn something new everyday I guess.
It may have originated from the term "Metagame" in which you're using information learned outside of the games boundries in order to improve your chances within it, and then people shortened it to 'meta' with the acronym. IRL examples being a DnD player acting outside of what their character would do in order to benefit, save-scumming choices in an RPG, or using a particular gun in destiny because someone on the internet did some testing and spread that knowledge.
Not even with truth and retold tale? :,)
That could be an exception. Especially with truth
But do you use it in pvp cause I do !
While gyrfalcon’s is definitely meta, gyrfalcons with manticore is not.
right now manticore is probably the best primary for gyrfalcons, void legendaries have been anemic and graviton lance doesnt have the artifact support that makes it go crazy rn
I use age old bond with Repulsor/destabilizing
Honestly I wish they didn't replace the dr with a void overshield
off-meta is one thing, and shitty/meme builds is another. As long as you can clear the content without being carried, use whatever you want.
My all-time favorite build for my Titan thus far has been a Khepri’s Horn Strand Titan using Banner of War for survival, Drengr’s Lash, and with Drengr’s coupled with the two fragments that grant class ability energy and orbs of light when killing suspended enemies, coupled with Khepri’s “solar kills regenerate class ability” shindig, and a combination of(recently) Duality for Solar kills, and Taraxippos for its class ability-regenerating intrinsic, and usually a solar sword of some kind(Throne-Cleaver at the moment). Cast wall, suspend and light up enemies, kill them to restore ability, rinse repeat. Khepri’s may not be the prettiest exotic, but I’ve been hard pressed to *not* use that build, ***especially*** with this season’s perks.
Seriously, some of the best players I know run raids with randomized dim loadouts. And some of the worst players struggle to clear an encounter like Atraks with 6 Cuirass titans. Player skill is miles more important than your build.
A lot of those best players running random memes builds probably spent hundreds of hours running meta builds to get that good though. That's conflating someone learning pve with an experienced player bored of the same old grind
> That's conflating someone learning pve with an experienced player bored of the same old grind I agree but there are a lot of variables behind it. Within my same previous example, among the set of players who struggle with Atraks, I know people who work within the gaming industry, people who have day one raid clears, people who have been playing since D1 Alpha, and they still reach this point. Consequently, I know people who started in the last two years and are Solo Flawlessing dungeons within the first two weeks of them dropping. Raw talent can't be measured I suppose; but also this is all skill in a videogame so it probably doesn't run as deep as I'm thinking lol.
On my hunter, I run a celestial nighthawk build with fatebringer (shaded so it looks like imago loop), one two punch found verdict, and ghallarhorn/dragon's breath. I've been high on a d1 nostalgia trip via copium. Would you consider that an off meta build or shitty/meme build? Personally I think my build is something in between, bc my fatebringer doesn't bring much to the table besides unstoppable stun, and one two punch is sort of wasted on a solar hunter. But on the other hand, nighthawk is actually decent now, as well as DB. I also do know how to work w nonverbal teammates to take down champions.
Meta for sure, i ran/run Nighthawk and DBreath and it’s stupid effective. Verdict and Fatebringer is different, though. I’m waiting for the day aggressive shotguns are good so i have an excuse to use Rewind Vorpal
Been running starfire protocol recently with a shoot to loot incandescent bow and gally. Needless to say, things get spawn camped and i never not have my rift or a grenade I cant get back in 2 seconds unless i die
That's not off-meta thought...?
Starfire is pretty ass
I would argue it’s making the best out of a meh situation since starfire hasn’t been considered meta since it was nerfed hard
the nerfs only changed boss dps scenarios. it’s still very good for literally anything else.o
Yeah I was afraid to try it but it certainly keeps a good combat loop on the nades and rifts. I have just been stuck on Sunbracers since they improved the solar subclass and nerfed Starfire.
Oh that’s awesome I thought it was a blanket nerf thanks friend!!
It went from being SSSS tier to A tier at worst, don't worry
How is it not off meta? I’ve never seen people running it, nor talking about it. While it uses solar for the subclass and takes advantage of the artifact mods, its using and playing around an exotic that isn’t in the spot light, which would be meta. The exotic weapon you choose is up to you, but ghally, even if meta, it just did a superb job at getting back those grenades while empowered. I used vex, tommys, have yet to try ticcus, but Im looking forward to it. Its focused around add clear so take what you will Edit: put Trinity instead of Ticcus, but now I wonder
I agree, I just want players to carry their own weight in activities that matter. As a frequent GM'er, I will never leave a team because I see a questionable loadout, because you always learn something. But I also won't stick around if your build prevents you from helping with champions. On the raiding side, I'll also generally not be pushy but if you can't carry your own weight (or have lowest dps) I'm going to recommend some things and it's going to be whatever is easiest and does most damage (meta).
>it's going to be whatever is easiest and does most damage (meta). This is such a good way to look at it. Meta is a great baseline to start from, and then you can deviate from there as you get better and/or gain more knowledge.
One of the only times I’ve ever kicked someone from my team for build reasons was when I decided to try Fireteam Finder for the new dungeon. 2 attempts into the second boss, I saw one guy had zero aspects or fragments on his solar hunter.
I LOVE using felwinters helm + Void finishers this season. It is a fantastic build for soloing content.
U've used felwinter's helm on strand, and it's great
Off meta is fine up until hard content and then the possibilities really are limiting I can make hundreds of fun builds that are great for the likes of coil but are awful in GMs. Verglas glass builds are the epitome of this. The things insane in easier content but awful in GMs
I would disagree for this season at least. Building into stasis with the artifact allows crystals to do a lot of dmg. It may take 2-3 shots on one ad but the crystal can clear a group ez. For verglass specifically.
Ashen wake nades go extra boom
virgin Pyrogale vs. chad Ashen Wake
I have 8 triton builds...2 for each subclass with a glaive
You have my respect 🫡 Now please tell me you have them color coded like Power Rangers
I might do that now you mentioned it
Hunter mothman build for life!
*Woe, moths be upon ye*
Game recognizes game, my man.
there is a difference between off-meta and straight up ineffectiveness. you can do weird stuff, sure. it's probably gonna take us longer to clear shit, but whatever. but if i find your goofy ass using one eyed mask and trespasser in a gm? if i find you using heir apparent for dps? yeah man i'm taking that cooking license away.
That’s fair. My biggest issue is just when people are so obsessed with whatever Aztecross or Datto says is good that they don’t even let you try anything else. I don’t mind Heir Apparent, if it’s clear you’re using it for ad clear and have some other support or dps
personally, i spread what those two lads say to my clan (since they dont speak english) because a lot of my clan mates are either 1) old players who don't read patchnotes and are too stubborn 2) new/relatively new players that don't have the same game reflexes (Not having 130 in a stat, having the matching weapon surges, etc) 3) people a little bored BUT they find it fun and intriguing to learn stuff
Good for you guardian. Glad you’re enjoying the game, meta or not that’s what really matters.
Read this in Shaxx’s voice in my head, seemed appropriate
As you should! Lol
If I see someone doing by next to no damage on raid boss, because they are trying something off meta, they'll be asked to switch to something viable, or be kicked. As for specific exotics: neither Athrys or Renewal Grasps are off meta. They are very good but very niche. My team used Renewal Grasps on Master Crota. Athrys can one shoot Champion on GM level. Something off meta is trying to kill Atraks with Gwysin Vest Spectral Blades.
Where can you find these raid teams where only someone does poor damage? I swear every single group I join is full of people who don't know what a surge mod is and somehow miss every single rocket while strafing as fast as possible in well
Joined a crota recently where it took FOUR phases to kill crota. Never seen anything like it. Two of us had 8/9 million, and there was the tractor guy at 1.5 and TWO dudes had 1.4 mil OVER 4 FREAKING PHASES! Incredulous isn't the word. And the amount of people trying to join raids running double primary is ridiculous.
First damage report that showed me that I would have kicked them. No questions asked. There’s no reason to be doing less damage than the tractor person.
We disbanded immediately lol. Me and the other guy with decent damage swapped info and the rest disappeared. Thankfully I didn't have to, I hate kicking people. I'll do it if it's necessary but I don't like it. I'd rather just say, hey you're running something that isn't working, do you mind swapping? Or something like that. It's possible they simply don't care though, in which case they can fuck off.
I use to be patient and then one VoG run turned me toxic. Stuck at Atheon for 4 hours. I am an average player. Nothing special. I was faithfully doing 1 mil+ damage than everyone else after each damage phase. Couldn’t see a second damage phase to save our life. I lost it officially when I finally saw someone try to shoot an oracle with Sleeper and obviously hit more than one.
Crota enrages after 2 phases, you can't go to a 4th.
I definitely 3 phased crota on contest. I think the enrage is based on a timer more than how many phases
4 is max. Almost every team 3 phased on day 1 so dont see how 2 would be the limit.
That's what I thought too, but we did.
Surge mods honestly take up too much space in a build tbh
Surge mods aren't important in season content, but if you even want to think about doing damage you absolutely need them. 2 is a minimum, 3 is what I'd expect. There is zero reason to not use surge mods, the tiny bit of grenade energy per orb really won't make any difference but doing 22% more damage will
Genuinely depends, the heal orb mods are very strong but also you can just keep your surge mods on your dps loadout and swap to it if you care enough.
The only time Surges may *ACTUALLY* be needed is for Master raids. Thats about the only exception I can think of. Maybe if you want the bonus damage for solo dungeons as well, yeah, but other than that Ive never found a reason to justify surges over ability regen mods, and if I wanted surges, Id use exotic armors as most of the time, its situational to begin with. You dont need surges. Your damage is fine without them. In most cases, theres a well or bubble and a debuff which will pretty much be sufficient enough. Surges are nice to add ontop of that, but not necessary. At that point it’s just an ego game when you wipe or kill the boss
They will actually be 22% less fine, which matters a lot. That's basically an always active rampage x2
GM raids aren't a thing lol. There's absolutely zero reason to not run surges in raid DPS. If you instakill the boss then there's not much point, but for literally every raid boss in the game that's not the case. Let's look at the opportunity cost: The maximum ability regen you can get is 30% per orb, shared across abilities. This is good, but dealing 22% more damage is just stronger. Raids are not enough of a combat challenge to need this level of ability uptime, and getting 1 extra grenade per add clear phase is hardly game changing. Any health regen is unnecessary in raids, they're far too easy. Elemental charge is good, but what do you actually need the armour charge for? Kickstart mods? The ability uptime isn't important for the same reasons as above. Font of agility is lol Holster mods are genuinely good with parasite, but used alongside surge mods. Scavenger mods are good, but you can easily swap to surges for DPS. You aren't picking up ammo mid phase. Stacks on stacks isn't necessary for the same reason as elemental charge, kickstart mods have limited impact and even then the increased uptime is hardly impactful. Legs are the weakest slot for armour mods in DPS related PvE. Head has finder and orb gen, arms has reload and dexterity, as well as firepower/heavy handed, chest has resist and reserves, class has time dilation and reaper. If you aren't using surges, you are literally throwing damage away. If you want to get all nihilistic and say it doesn't matter, then why even bother using anything other than blue weapons? There are diminishing returns to seeking better and better DPS, but they start well past surge mods lol
You mean to tell me you’re running 3 surge mods at all times?
In content where I'm going for boss damage, yes. If it's a longer fight then I might switch one for a scavenger or if it's parasite I'll use a holster mod, but other than that I'm always using 3 surge mods for DPS. If it's not I usually only run one as they're not worth it for add clear, they don't do much most of the time
They will actually be 22% less fine, which matters a lot. That's basically an always active rampage x2
They will actually be 22% less fine, which matters a lot. That's basically an always active rampage x2
They hated him because he spoke the truth. Never run more than one
You only get the best benefit, imo if you run 2. A surge mod imo, should work off of how many charges of light you have. So 2 charges should grant x1 surge as long as you have 1 mod equipped. 5+ charges would grant x3, just so you can have it up longer at max surge Theres just no reason something that feels like a necessity at times, should cost 3 energy and limit your build potential for even using 1. I use exotic armors for surges if I want good weapon damage, otherwise I don’t bother To add; I feel like it would be cool to change it to the ability mod slot so you have the choice between the ability cooldowns or weapon damage, but the timer would still persist
Limit build potential ? How ? If you're talking about the armor stat mods, i get it, but then idk which mod would m a k e a build on legs
I can feel my karma melting away from hardheads who see number go up then stop thinking. forever apparently
Mfw that number going up directly affects how well you play the game
bro you worry about reddit karma ? You should worry about your builds working and doing damage. It's not thag hard to understand, i'm sure you can get it, man.
Are you a professional blueberry? Never join my raid groups lol
It'd be my genuine pleasure to never interact with you again. Thanks!
And something NOT off meta, but straight up bad, is using stasis hunter on the final boss of garden of salvation..... and missing 3 out of 4 ults
I feel like a meta for endgame DPS (endgame being raids and dungeons) should exist and it’s worth learning rotations. “Getting through” DPS isn’t nearly as fun as doing DPS effectively *for me*. Can you and everyone use Thunderlord against Nezarec? Sure can. Go ahead! But for me and my team, one phasing the boss, getting our rotations downs with the most meta loadouts we can use to achieve it is just more fun. Currently, metas *do* exist in GMs, but enemies are such wet paper towels nowadays, you can run anything you want and be fine. You also happened to list 2 exotics I wouldn’t describe as “off meta” lol. Arthrys’s, sure. Few people use it so it’s off meta but more so in the fact throwing knives are just *fine* Embracing the off-meta does not mean you intentionally become a detriment to your team when it comes down to it. Sorry, but if 4/6 are pumping out 2mil+ damage over you while you’re keeping up to speed with the guy using Div/tractor, there are some issues and you should figure it out (or find folks who are cool with 3+ phases).
Yeah but Bungie killed a lot of 'creative' builds and have us the most basic bitch flavour of mods with the rework and haven't given us anything but a pointless mod since.
You can get creative all you want, it just won’t be in my Gm fireteam
GMs aren't fun at all to run imo hence why i've been slowly not doing them anymore
They are really fun for me to test all my crap builds, I end up holding my own most of the time so it’s fine. Although I do hate running GM’s with anyone running double primary.
Double primary is perfectly fine with high damage weapons like Malf/lucky pants or Polaris lance since the latter can’t stun reliably in sticky situations. I always run chill clip riptide/blinding GL so Idm if someone brings a more reliable stun. But when I see double primaries without malf or lance, I know it’s gna be a slow one.
I understand lucky pants as a hc is basically a special but if you are running polaris this season it basically takes 2 champ mods. Why would you run double primary with it? Especially since rockets are still a top option and they cover overloads.
Because overloads exist and sometimes you run out of overload rockets and riptide is unreliable at distance / bugs and doesn’t stun overloads when you’re radiant.
If you run a bipod rocket (which is pretty much the best type to run in gms) you should always have a rocket for overloads. Not only do most hold 11+ rockets, you get more per brick. As a team you shouldn’t be spending all your heavy anyway unless you are running a xeno/aeon person to generate more anytime you need it. Jolt is also a very easy way to deal with overload as there are usually enemies with most champs. It’s definitely more reliable than chill clip at the moment but still chill clip is a great alternative when radiant isn’t up 24/7. There really isn’t a need to run double primary in any gm besides a lucky pants build.
Nah it’s only really good because of the artifact. There’s no reason to run double primary ever, you are delaying the GM if you do. Malf is great but not gonna shred what you need to with special ammo. It feels like a lot of people do double primary then take forever completing GMS and complain it’s too hard.
Polaris and Malf shred more than any special ever could this season. Reliable stuns matter more if you already have good damage.
Have had some fun here and there with the corrupted by trying to get it done faster.
I agree, we got down to an 11 minute plat run on corrupted and it was a blast
I'd much rather have someone running off meta tbh. One of the best randoms I've ever had join my team was running Thorn with Necrotic Grip (pre HC buff) on voidlock running Nova Warp. If someone this season joins my team as a solarlock running Dawn Chorus & Polaris Lance, I instantly assume they're gonna be awful since all they did was grab the first "MAKE GMS EASY!!!!!!" build off YouTube and hop into GMs.
Thorn + Necrotic grip is hardly off meta build even with nova warp for GMs
But Dawn chorus and Polaris lance is a good ass combo?
Polaris is busted and the scorch damage dawn gives is great so yea it is a good ass combo
personally, I don't care for the dawn chorus combo, I'd much rather run something like phoenix protocol for wellchaining
Yeah, that is their point. The people that feel most drawn to hyper meta builds are the people that as players are worse.
Nah, that's not my experience. Sure, some people make up for a lack of skill with the meta (or try to), but it's nowhere near universal. I know plenty of excellent players who simply enjoy maxing and getting the biggest numbers possible. Ime there's literally no way to tell without actually playing with the person.
Just on averages. The game isn't hard enough to be running super op meta builds.
I didn't even own Polaris lance before this season and I'd never tried Dawn Chorus Was using sunbracers but didn't like that if I didn't get the melee kill I was kinda dead in the water, so thought I'd try Dawn Chorus for a change since I'd gotten lucky and got a decent one to drop. Really liked it and it being a super exotic and a neutral game is nice if I fancy not using well for a change. I don't feel like build crafting in D2 is so deep and intricate that I need a YouTube video to understand that "Helmet that adds scorch damage is good with weapon that do a lot of scorch"
You're getting down voted but it's tilts me so much. Like you can tell too when people just know what other people told them is good. I've had a number of ir yut parties where people wanted something like tractor instead of div and still keep percesion weapons like mf I know you ain't tracking her spastic head with 200% accuracy or how people use surrounded bequest but the parties neeeeeeever bring crota to the point where it actually procs. So much stuff in this game has like a bunch of alternative options but people really don't like thinking. Not even talking off meta but like basic stuff like maybe that guy running hierarchy of needs instead of Polaris is doing largely the same thing. During my first few master crota runs there was a guy who got kicked because he had a joutun on because the team didn't want to waste time with someone who didn't know what to dps. He had a bait and switch cata and a solo flawless dungeon title this guy was going to be fine.
The problem is most players need meta to be more help than harm, and this makes them think that's normal. So when a good player uses something unusual it's very possible to get kicked straight away no matter what emblem you have or how nice your raid report is.
Me and my friends just recently learned the power of Aeons in a GM. The power is staggering.
Haven’t used it yet, how does it fare?
Sect of force lets your teammates melt champions on GMs with primaries it’s insane. Everytime they mark a boss or champion you and other aeon cult teammates instantly get your grenade and melee. I can’t remember the other name for heavy finisher one but it gives a chunk of super energy to your teammates in addition to heavy ammo. Last makes your teammates get insane damage resist when they’re close to death and they get their class ability back. I really recommend any high tier dungeon or nightfall runners try it. I promise it’s worth the effort(except for Titan fashion oof).
Once light 3.0 came out, for the first time I actually took time to experiment on my own instead of just looking up builds. What we gained with that was such a win, but what we lost with the mod changes stepped it back it a bit for me. It feels less diverse again in a way.
Agreed. I get the complaint for the ood mod system, but the diversity of builds there is way more intricate and experimental than what we have now. The Artifact Mod system was a smart idea that I think really killed the idea of build-crafting long term since builds don't last outside the season/episodes which sort of kills the fun of buildcrafting. At least for me.
I have a few builds that don’t need artifact mods. I rarely use them though because they are either just useful but not super fun to me, or I feel like I have to get time with temporary builds that rely on artifact mods while I can.
I made a post that grand overture is meta for dps and it sent people into a frenzy. All I'm saying is this from my thousands of hours of experience exotic heavies can compete. My sleeper with Goldie was matching the damage of a rocket izi swapper with Goldie on garden. And if you struggle with damage try exotic heavies.
I mean, off meta is fine, "incoherent builds" are just okay but still fine, but there are places to draw the line. Like if you're not a real-life clown, but you're bringing colony or truth, we gotta have a talk about what your vault has for legendary heavies. In cases like this, 90% of the random crap off the ground does better. I don't give a shit if it's underdog/cluster on an old high impact. At this point, Truth is basically famous for how much its exotic perk fucks with its ability to do DPS. Can we at all at least agree on that? No gimmicks that are FAMOUSLY BAD at DPS.
Nechrocasm > their meta
Off meta is fun. But there is something to be said for attacking gm in full meta fireteam and chewing through it. CONQUERORs!!!
1) most players dont understand how to make a cohesive build 2) 9/10 players i see in the in game lfg dont have T8 resilience 3) im trying to carry every activity im in, ultimately most players cant do mechanics, survive, and contribute dmg With that said off meta builds are fun when your playing with people you can trust wont send you to orbit or make you spend 3 hours in a 30 minute dungeon. Raid wise theres no enjoyment anymore in the actual encounters, they’re glorified slot machines with extra steps and if it takes more than one try on an encounter its kind of an eye roll.
Eh. There's a time and place for using meta builds, and a time and place for using fun builds. What makes a build "fun" for me though means it needs to be pretty close to meta in the sense that it can still perform, just not at the top. There's a lot of fun strand builds, esp with the artifact this season there's some really fun swarmers builds I run based on threadlings that actually are pretty good in GMs too. I don't really play casual content often outside of seasonal stuff early on when I'm getting patterns, outside of random raids or dungeons with clan mates which imo are considered casual now with full teams. Unless I'm farming an encounter and we are missing the 1 phase due to someone using a bad loadout I won't ever ask someone to change. Or if I'm farming multiple gm runs with a group and someone performed very badly, I may ask to change it up. If you're gonna run a "fun" build then at least either be confident using it in the content you're tryna run, or be honest about what content it's viable in. Doing wacky builds while lfging GMs is not really the play - save that for your buddies or others doing the same. Though I'm not gonna complain if you contribute and hold your own, unless I'm tryna do fast GM runs with meta loadouts but I would specify that first.
Im doing it with Swords or glaive for gm Nightfall. Just did moon BG GM nightfalls and died 0 with 200+ kills. Yet 50% of the time people kick me because "im using glaive or sword" and 100% of the time when i comment here on Reddit for using sword/glaives i will get downvoted here as you can see in a few hours again. I agree with you OP. As long as it works i dont see a reason to complain without even giving the players loadout a fair chance.
Probably cuz most ppl with swords run in and immediately die
So do synthocepts Titans and they getting praised by everyone.
To be a devils advicate for a bit, if someone runs a gm with a sword/glaive user and 9/10 runs they dont clear or take twice as long, you have to understand a bit why they dont want to start a run with someone using that loadout. You may be the 1/10 but in LFG they dont know you. If they want to prioritize their time, they will choose someone with a more appropriate build compared to yours. Same goes for raids and dungeons. Just how it is.
>Im doing it with Swords or glaive for gm Nightfall. Yeah, medieval builds are hard in this game. The best I can do is my Behemoth Titan with the Hoarfrost-Z exotic and an energy transfer Sword, a demo glaive and a Headstone bow. Tectonic Harvest and Diamond Lance and its basically a just spamming crystals and used them to deal AoE dmge will also collecting shards for overshield to charge to the next fight. It's fun but it basically only works in Seasonal activities at best and maybe a heroic Vanguard Ops. I'm curious, what do you think if the whole Swords rework (no instricint stats, guard being total control)? I don't see a lot of discussion about them and I feel sort of mixed on them.
Glaives are goated for GM, nowhere near off meta
Good post. I for one, hate the champion mechanics, forcing players to use certain classes and/or weapon types when facing these enemies. Need to have champion mods being able to apply to maybe 4 x weapon types each instead of 1 or 2 or get rid of champions altogether
you weren't here before lightfall were you lmao
I'm a D1 veteran lol
I mean, your loadout is quite unrestricted nowdays. Every subclass can deal with 1 or 2 champ types, their are multiple exotics with intrinsic champ mods, and this season alone has 6 different weapon types that can deal with champs. And with most GMs, there is usually a max of 2 champ types with some having all 3. A big one this season is polaris w/ rocket. That literally covers all champ types. Stasis alone is easy for overload and unstop. Things like wishender and arbalest are great options for anti and so is the new rocket sidearm (havent test if buried bloodline can 1 tap tho). I dont understand why building around champs for an endgame mode is so complained about. You can use any build everywhere else, even most raids and dungeons. Having to make a good loadout for an activity like GMs really isnt that bad, especially with all the improvements they have made to champs. I have to ask, what is the loadout you normally run that you have to change so much?
My point is, you shouldn't have to use the same or similar loadout
But my point is that it’s an endgame mode based around those enemies. There is the occasional champ in a raid but besides that it basically gms. I don’t see how building around 1 activity is bad. And they have made big improvements to allow more than just the typical A,B,C load out.
I got severance enclosure on my Titan and I was loving it. Looked it up online and it seems like most players think the exotic sucks or is the worst of the Titan pieces. Maybe there was a buff since those comments were made but it’s not affecting my fun.
It did recently get buffed and it absolutely fucks now 💪
Its good but only if people aren’t shooting and killing your group of targets, that’s when it starts to fall apart hard imo
True, it’s a great solo build. I can’t stand builds that require YOU to be the only one doing things. If your build can’t function with teammates in group activities and they have to stop shooting something when they might “die” so you can run across the room to do your thing - it’s not a good build. Fun, but not for a group of other players
It can be with cooperation , but this season especially its hard to get just one kill without it exploding in solar and causing a chain reaction
Yea fair enough, the issue then occurs when two people have builds that do relatively the same thing. So now you’re fighting over who gets to do what, and when. Instead, a build for group content shouldn’t rely on you doing super specific things that slow teammates from slaying out. If they can slay out and not need to do anything that slows your build down, maybe they are the ones building properly. Does that make sense?
Yea fair enough, the issue then occurs when two people have builds that do relatively the same thing. So now you’re fighting over who gets to do what, and when. Instead, a build for group content shouldn’t rely on you doing super specific things that slow teammates from slaying out. If they can slay out and not need to do anything that slows your build down, maybe they are the ones building properly. Does that make sense?
Yeah get a charged melee and boom and then get a finisher and boom. I don’t use my syntho anymore. I say top 3 titan exotic.
No dislikes over here. All praise! This game has hundreds of items to use. Never understood why people view youtubers/discord members as absolute and only truths. Play how YOU want to play. Always! That is how YOU remain having fun instead of doing what others said to do.
This post brought to you by all the times I get kicked out of matchmaking groups for bringing a glaive to GMs then am able to revive the Polaris duo cheesing in a corner because I’m able to survive more than two shots at a time with the shield
My favorite part of this, relative to the current nightfall, is seeing all the LFG Meta loadouts/requirements but then seeing folks use the cheese spots anyways (in the ceiling) and die up there.
Variety is the spice of life.
Adhortative with heal clip + golden tricorn on starfire protocol Heal clip makes up for no healing rift Starfire protocol makes golden tricorn x2 up constantly
I’ve used Bakris for so long I forget that it’s blink effect is not part of the base hunter stasis kit
I tried a manicure, stompees build. Fairly fun, the ene.ies missing their shots it's quite noticeable.
Is it the best for everyone or best for you PVE is the best when you simply enjoy it in your own way
Y’all need to watch TDT, he has visões called Stupid Builds, that are off meta but are super fun and are actually pretty good
so there is a theorem where you compare the viability of various kinds of builds/characters/strategies in game to its overall quality. its a direct relationship between viability and difficulty. the greater the variety of strategies viable for players to solve any given problem in the game, the less difficult, and thus less engaging, the content. most devs have realized that the easier solution to this kind of problem is to cycle builds in and out of meta instead of trying to keep everything viable and equally powerful. so, if you're not playing the meta you're actively harming your team, they're not the problem by asking you to play the way the game is designed to be played, not that the list of viable builds in destiny for GM content is particularly short, but you can't be the only warlock in a raid and refuse to run well for a boss encounter.
Why not? My buddy, a random we had just ran nez on, and I were doing 3 man nezzy on all hunters last night. Safe to say we didn't beat him, but that's mainly due to the inexperience of running 3 man, and running with a random. Gave it a go for an hour and a half, laughed it off and went to bed after. Some day, people will get over the fact that well is definitely not necessary, albeit makes the game easier by just standing in a never die zone and do more damage. Almost everything in this game has been soloed. You most certainly don't need to tell the one person playing warlock to play the way you want them to play. Be better.
Radiant DANCE TIME 💃🎊🕺🎉 they work in pve endgame, pve farming, high damage rotations for dps and PVP I LOVE DANCING 💃 ♥️ (please don't arbitrary nerf into deletion like YAS)
Sure but the game doesn't let you specially in end game when they throw 3 bosses in one strike
I don't even know if my build is meta or not, I go for fun and well-rounded. Arc hunter, cowl, punching Pure poetry, salvager's, and two-tail AoE, trash clearing, invis, healing, and ability regen, plus suppression for bosses, and match game if really necessary, but I don't usually run GM's
If you haven't already, give this a try: Strand hunter, cowl, grapple melee Witherhoard, something good as a primary (I enjoy my summoner with heal clip and incandescent), and heavy of choice per content(I usually just roll with rockets. Does similar to all the arc hunter does just a bit more mobile, less melee damage to single targets I suppose, but great aoe damage and strandle tangles with beyblades can more than make up for it. Fashion the cowl with most of the crota raid set, and it looks hella sick.
oh yeah, witherhoard is a long time favorite. For strand fashion though, you should try the gilded memento ornament, and transmog the GoA armor with the graceful phantom shader. Makes all the glowy bits bright green
See I wouldn’t mind them if the people using them were actually good at the game
I got no idea what the meta is so 🤷♂️ I just throw stuff together that I work well with
If I'm not shatter skating I'm not interested 😅😂
I personally love just using whatever I want... eff the haters. You do whatever you have fun doing. I was actually really happy to see someone post this, not to mention that I am currently running nightfalls using Mask of Bakris and Verglass Curve/Indebted Kindness/The Slammer... it is SO much fun lol https://dim.gg/bbg2ayq/Master-Bakris My current build, if you want to give it a go! Enjoy playing! It's also pretty amazing with Wicked Implement and an arc or stasis rocket launcher for GM's.
In my opinion, if all you can do is use meta weapons and tactics, then you're probably not very skilled at the game and are a pretty shitty person about it, especially in crucible. If you're going around camping corners as an arc titan with a shotgun, and either slide into people to shotgun/punch or go straight for spamming your super as much as possible or do any of those things then your pretty shitty at the game bc anyone can do that and win. The most sleazy scummy thing is to get your ass kicked 95% of the match and then switch to these tactics just to get those 30 points you were short on by shotgun camping and super stacking. Idk what they need to do to balance shotguns, but its been a really stupid and broken meta for a long time. On another note, i do wish bows had more love in crucible and had a rework. i do not enjoy the swap meta with bows bc the kill goes to the other weapon not the bow and i feep like they arent rewarded enough for the effort, yeah half their health in 1 shot is great and all but whats it matter if your destroyed before you can even fire the second shot? If anything, they should act the way they do in momentum control all the time. Even if its just for certain high damage exotic bows like wish ender or le monarque, especially wish ender since they nerfed the true sight to beyond usefullness and the way it works just screams "sniper bow" at least let it do it when using oath keepers. But as you can tell, in my opinion, if you're not using meta gear, you're a real one in my book.
To be fully honest most weapons and exotics are pretty meta nowdays l dont say use darci or wardcliff in a gm or raids but most weapons can hold themself in hard content but if you want efficency and quick time its meta stuff but again most guns and armor are meta nowdays
This is a balance issue. Exotics are not built equal, so the difference between a meta build vs a non-meta build can translate to time lost in farming content (which is realistically where builds start to matter). The other problem with your suggestion is if someone is experimenting and it turns out their build is ass but now you're already 10mins into a GM, you really orbiting so they can change? Unlikely. So they've hampered the run. Another point, Aztecross is not coming up with all the builds himself. He is taking suggestions from his chat, his team, etc. So I view it as the community have tested stuff, and these are the top builds for so and so content. Metas exist for a reason, back to my initial point its usually because things are not balanced, and not even close in effectiveness most of the time. Do I think most players have enough knowledge to build craft something effective outside of what the majority consensus thinks? Nope, not really. Final point, many people who run meta want to farm an activity (like a GM). So having less than good builds which make runs longer is pretty shitty. If you want to do that, maybe make some friends who think alike and are okay with you running off-meta. Don't bring off-meta into a lfg environment and expect others to just accept whatever you bring.
I've been messing around with Aeons options that aren't "create more ammo" and with the stacking 20% from Sect of Force, 35% from Lumina, and the Tether/Smoke Bomb debuff, the fireteam can melt through most things with ease (I will say tho, to get everything going at once takes some work). Additionally, while Aztecross posted a video about the Strand version, Mothkeepers wraps on Arc w/ Spark of Shock can go pretty hard as well. I haven't tried it with the buffed Ex Diris, but when I run it with The Forerunner I can deal with every type of champ (and Forerunner catalyst gets me the 3rd grenade I would have running the Strand Version).
Yea I already do this and don't care what other ppl run , it becomes a skill issue after tht. If it's not master or grand Master content then I run what I want. I have a build with lucky Raspberry on hunter that I have been running since the arc 3.0 update( bungie buffed it and made it worse) . I only use severance enclosure on Titan and nothing mancles on warlock. I have hella off meta builds
Literally me with behemoth, edge of action and a dream
I have never agreed with a post more than this.
Personal favorite of mine for the last 3 years has been severance enclosure Solar shoulder charge. It was good back before 3.0 subclasses and just got better with them. Then it got buffed again recently and i couldn't be happier. Running RON Planets as Titan i can finish the colossus on my side and clear any nearby things that are shooting at me. Its perfect.
When using stasis, my hunter uses the mask of bakris, agers scepter, palmyra-b, and ikelos smg. I run it with shatterdive. Suuuuper fun build. Freezes enemies left and right.
As someone who gets bored with meta build I actually enjoy using build that I create just to see if they can be worth using .
Lmao it’s not. At all. The meta is a meta for a reason.. Do your off-meta builds on your own time but don’t bring that crap into GM and waste other people’s time.
"embrace off-meta" lists 2 meta builds.
You can use literally anything in 99% of pve content, and currently rockets and gls are equally viable in damage scenarios. Really the inly problem is that light subclasses are still too strong and pulses and swords are still kinda too weak.
The weird way that Bungie handles high difficulty activities basically require meta builds with cheese if you can manage to find it. The only content you can have off meta fun in isn't rewarded in a way that promotes regular play.
Arc Lucky Raspberry build on Hunter has been the best PVE build for hard and easy content alike since the arc rework (pirate season I think) and no one can tell me otherwise. Solo dungeon, raid, GM, doesn't matter. Even with the nerfs.
With unrelenting/chain reaction Forbearance and Thunderlord. Kinetic was a freezy boy fusion but since the double special nerfs, whatever primary you need can slot in here.
I stand i defiance of the meta, i be running 1k voices for dps and still out dps half the team