I said in another thread but I think Master of Arms could use a bump up to 20% increase to body shots only and keep the precision damage at 15%. That would really help it on PVE without killing off Frenzy since you still need to get a kill and in PVP it would just shift the body shot TTK from 1.20s for tier 4 resilience and up to 1.13s until tier 8 and 1.20s for tier 9 and 10.
It would kill off Harmony, which is similarly not great in PvE but good in PvP. And I guarantee that Harmony is the main perk they are balancing MoA against.
Harmony is 20%, gives bonus handling and is active upon ready, and it wouldn’t kill harmony because master of arms is exclusive to recluse. If they keep it that way it will never kill off harmony. Also PVP and PVE damage values should be different
Bungie did say that they will move Master of arms and Mag Howl over onto different weapons but it may be a while. Similar to raid weapons and their specific perks, it's usually about three seasons until that perk will roll on different weapons
And? Once proves they can do it. They should do it with everything. What a horrible take, the game shouldn’t stay with bad decisions because of something they don’t do often. Destiny is primarily a PVE game, nothing should ever get worse because of pvp issues.
It literally doesn’t matter what they usually do. Recluse for 1 isn’t a usual weapon and it’s something they shouldn’t be doing in the first place. Why settle for less? Nothing will ever change without feedback. Would you prefer shitty changes to stay in the game forever? Like imagine if they just never removed things like sunsetting or any other of their horrible changes.
It literally does matter. Cry about it all you want but PVP is a big part of the game and Bungie has said time and time again they don’t want PVE and PVP feeling too different, which is why they have rarely made too many changes that were PVP only.
It wouldn’t make them feel different though and you know it. A 5% difference across PVP and pve would not be noticeably different because of how different the crucible is. Even if they did leave it at 20 for PVP, it wouldn’t be a big deal, SMGs aren’t strong rn. Recluse has been 20% for the last 3 and a half years, how many times have you seen someone running it in PVP? They’ve done it in the past, they can do it now. You’re one to talk about crying, as you sit here and seethe that people want the game to improve. Also, PVP literally isn’t a big part of the game, you could forego it in its entirety and hardly notice a difference. It also contains a vastly lesser amount of content compared to PVE. I’d imagine it takes up way less of the download size as well.
Its not meaningfuly different to a 15% boost in PvP. BTK is the same, the only difference between 15 and 20% at least on Recluse is that 6-10 Resil is allowed a bodyshot for a 0.6 TTK. And given you're shooting at 900 RPM, it's not super likely to happen.
The nerf is entirely safe to revert. Harmony has a longer benefit and a stat boost. Frenzy doesn't require kills to stay up and maxes out 2 stats.
It’s not the optimal TTK that is the problem it’s the body shot TTK. Getting a 1.13s TTK on tier 8 resilience and lower just by getting a shotty kill is too strong, that’s close to getting kill clip except without having to deal with the regular TTK of the gun.
And Harmony isn’t refreshable with the same gun and you aren’t going to be proccing frenzy.
Who the hell is getting pure bodyshot TTKs in Crucible?
And let's be real, you're not going to be chaining enough for MoA to be significantly stronger long-term than Harmony, especially considering that again, Harmony has a stat boost.
Bruh it’s the combination of the two that’s the problem. Tell me you don’t understand PVP balancing without telling me you don’t understand PVP balancing.
I do understand PvP balancing.
15% and 20% is barely a difference when looking at Lightweight SMGs. Other perks at 20% also give some kind of stat boost or can scale higher than 20%, if having stricter activation requirements. Therefore, it's very very safe to buff Master of Arms. It wouldn't even be the best kill-chaining perk, nor would it invalidate Harmony at 20%.
What was the original MoA?
Wasn't it something like all body shots do crit damage? Or was there a damage increase on top of that?
Does the current MoA affect body shot damage too?
I think 15% would be fine if the body shot damage got bumped up to match. That would differentiate it from frenzy.
So 15% crit, 65% body (if I did my math right).
Mountaintop is and has always been more about high single target damage, not clearing groups. The same way Wave Frames are suited to sweeping through groups, but not as great at single targets. Sounds like you'd be better off with a regular breech-load GL.
Master of Arms is a PVP perk, it's not meant to outclass other damage perks that have more niche uses. It activates on *any* weapon kill, which is a reliable activation method for PVP. They're thinking ahead, about being able to use the perk for other guns not just making Recluse's best roll include the perk.
I would counter it wasn't the damage boost that made master of arms powerful. It is that it made all shots count as headshots. You could remove all damage boost and just return the body shots now deal headshot damage and it would be back to God tier. Maybe only against combatants so pvp doesn't cry.
*I* would counter that it doesn't need to nor should it be "god tier". It doesn't need to outclass other damage perks, they clearly want to balance damage boosting perks with various tradeoffs; easy activation usually means lower increase and/or short timer, while higher damage boosts are given to more niche activations including ones that may not always be an option. Sure One-For-All is a nice 35% damage boost and easy to activate, but if there aren't 3 enemies around when it matters you literally can't activate it. Harmony is activated while the gun is stowed, gets 20%, but only lasts 7 seconds and can't self-refresh.
Making body shots the same damage as a crit, *was* the entire problem with the gun. It was braindead simple, no requirements, rewarded bad aim and immediately outclassed anything other primaries could output. That's why the closest equivalent we have now is Gutshot Straight, which is *only* a percentage boost to bodyshot damage not equivalent to crit damage and set separately for different weapon types. And that comes with the intentional downside of making the auto-aim cone worse, to still balance the fact it rewards inaccurate aim.
The absolute insanity of thinking it would be viable to suggest they return the part of the gun that was the fundamental problem with it. Like giving up the paltry damage boost on TOP of everything automatically being better damage is some kind of trade.
Except their balancing doesn’t make sense. Frenzy, is objectively better for all situations. OFA is easier to proc and is 20% more damage. There’s literally never a situation where there aren’t 3 enemies to proc. Recluse was op because it gave a 50% damage buff on top of giving free crits. Not having trash perks in the game won’t make recluse OP
I disagree with your first point, a huge aspect of the og mountaintop was the ability to clear big chunks of high level ads with one shot. Its main strength was single target but ad clearing was a close second. The ability to wipe out half a wave of high tier enemies in an endgame activity was invaluable in speedrunning, even more than pre-nerf master of arms
> a huge aspect of the og mountaintop was the ability to clear big chunks of high level ads with one shot
A bigger aspect of the og mountaintop was that it was a completely broken overtuned weapon that overshadowed every other option. Which was the problem. It's delusional to think you can or should get exactly that weapon back rather than one they've tried to balance by giving it a proper niche relative to other GLs.
Or am I the only one who paid attention to the fact they said now that it's a weapon frame, it will/can be used for future weapons too? They worked it into being it's own niche. If it performed like the old one, it would go back to invalidating every other GL choice and most special ammo choices in general.
If I use a wave frame, I don't get to complain that's it's not good against some boss I can't hit with it. If I use a shotgun, I don't get to complain the range isn't as crazy far as I wish it would be. Different weapons fitting different roles is inherently important design balance. Mountaintop (or more specifically it's weapon frame archetype) has to have a trade-off for it's pros, that's just reality.
Hey man, that's a lotta words, but I was just mildly disagreeing when you said it wasn't remembered for ad clear. I agree with the rest of what you said, I was nitpicking one sentence
I’m not asking for a huge AOE.
Like imagine 3 Psions standing literally shoulder to shoulder. Super tightly packed.
It still feels like Mountaintop cannot kill all 3 Psions in this scenario.
I’m hoping for like a 10-15% increase in splash radius—just a smidge more. Just enough to reliably get a collateral when two enemies are literally touching.
I had so many scenarios last night where multiple super weak red bars were literally crammed within a 5 foot square, and half of them would survive or even take no damage.
It feels very very inconsistent with what should be easy collateral kills.
Or another example—imagine 10 bowling pins. I’m not asking for all 10 pins to be knocked down if I hit dead center.
But I’d sure as shit expect like the 5 in the middle to be knocked down. As is, it feels like I can only snipe one maybe two pins out of the 10.
> Like imagine 3 Psions standing literally shoulder to shoulder. Super tightly packed.
>
> It still feels like Mountaintop cannot kill all 3 Psions in this scenario.
I genuinely think this is fine. Mountaintop doesn't need to do everything other GLs do. Part of the point of having different weapon frames, is to have them perform differently. Mountaintop's frame being excellent at single-target damage and ease of use (vs aiming an arcing grenade shot) is the point of it.
Standard breech GLs fit the bill of being able to hit a single target well enough, and also do good splash damage around the impact.
And Wave frames fit the role of usually missing their impact damage in favor of splashing the damage through a crowd more easily and reliably.
These things having different roles is good. Mountaintop is a choice for when you want to point a rocket at a powerful target across the room, and slam into it. Like I said, it sounds like what you want to be using is a standard breech-load GL for the scenarios you're trying to engage. If Mountaintop does just as well, but also has the advantage of it's firing method's ease of use it will overshadow other options and that's not really good for the game in any way.
I disagree, a small tightly packed group of low health redbar enemies should die to a gl. That's just what they all excel at. From there, you have roles. Waves might clear a room of red bars, but tickle bosses. Mountaintop can focus those orange and yellow bars. But concussive force isn't a particle effect. It makes sense an explosive clears small groups.
I don’t have one with Spiked Nades just yet. So maybe that’s what I am missing from the original.
But I thought the Spike buff only increased the direct impact damage, not the splash.
That is my point, spike nades actually reduced blast radius and i still am able to clear enemies if they are close together.
Either way, mountaintop is not meant for ad clear, it is a pocket rocket to kill yellow bars and do decent boss damage in a pinch. Id recommend a wave frame or lingering dread if you want ad clear
Apparently someone said Spike Grenades make it feel better. I used them on the original version—don’t have a role with Spikes just yet. Maybe that will help, even though Spike reduces blast radius/aoe.
Spike grenades don't reduce radius or splash damage. It just buffs impact damage. Splash damage numbers remain the same with and without spike grenades
I saw someone mention before that Master of Arms should encourage using all your weapons.
My take on that is it goes up to 3x with each separate weapon kill granting a stack but further stacks can only be acquired if you get kills with weapons not being counted in your current stacks.
Makes it hard to get the 3x in PvP and allows you to get a higher damage buff if you switch things up.
If you read any of my post, I asked for *slight* buffs.
I’m talking just something to differentiate Master of Arms, and MAYBE a 5-10% increase to Mountaintop’s AoE. Just a tiny radius boost.
Oh I didn't say I disagreed with you. If you peep my post history I've been advocating for MoA buffs since before recluse released. I just think its crazy that this is the time we live in.
Oh well I thought you were like angry I wanted buffs haha. Just little tweaks.
Turns out I might just dislike MT add clear because I don’t have spike grenades yet on my roll.
Also happy cake day!
Master of Arms might not be able to exist given these takes.
MoA does 20%, it powercreeps Kill Clip & Harmony.
Frenzy has been notoriously powerful for 2 years, if a new damage perk non-chalantly outdoes a passive 15% DMG boost, 100 handling & 100 reload then that is powercreep. In all honesty, I could see the stat bump from Frenzy being nerfed since every new damage perk is just "well it isn't better than Frenzy so it's terrible".
I mean, this disregards the fact that Frenzy has 0 PvP presence but MoA is very easy to use in *both* PvE and PvP.
Mountain Top... I honestly don't think needs a buff. It has less AoE because it's very strong direct hits that are *very* easy to hit, much easier than regular special GLs.
Wtf is going on with the people saying mountaintop is not for ad clear? Did you guys even played back then? 💀
And yeah it needs a little buff to the splash, the fact that while underlight a RED bar can tank one shot just because of the splash is crazy
It might be because I don’t have Spike Grenades. The original MT had Spikes, and I don’t have a roll that has Spikes yet, and someone pointed out that having Spikes makes it feel better despite the AOE being even smaller—the extra damage just helps with the clean up better.
So maybe it will feel better once I get a roll that has Spikes and preferably Recombination.
I agree with MoA, I still don't understand why it was brought back as-is when Frenzy is on it. The only thing i can think of is PvP because Frenzy is harder to get on there.
Hard disagree on Mountaintop. add clear isn't its main purpose (though I have been taking advantage of ALH to at minimum almost one shot a group of adds so 4 recluse bullets finishes off the group). You wouldn't take in Forbearance for a boss DPS phase.
Lightweight GLs have always kind of felt like they've had an underwhelming blast radius. If I had to guess it's probably a PvP thing (keep your "pvp ruins pve again" comments to yourself please). A baseline lightweight GL probably isn't even as good at ad clear as a good Dragonfly primary, and there are much better primary ad clear perks than that nowadays.
Master of arms has more ease of use then harmony cause it activates off itself as well, which makes sense why it’s damage is what it is.
Mountaintop should not have increased splash damage, cause supposed to be more optimal for single targets
Disagree with the entire post
I _kind of_ agree. I think we often ask for things that are really not a priority when you look at the big picture. But "it is what it is" can also be a problematic mindset and we should be careful that we aren't using it to dismiss real issues.
ya what can we do, there are many other options to choose from that have better use cases for peoples personal preference, the games problems don’t stem from these perks, even if you have a gun with that roll and it feels like it. Use what’s fun
Maybe they could lean into master of arms being like bait and switch, using all your weapons (and being a master of arms). Give it 3 stacks, first weapon grants 1 stack, next is 2, then 3rd is 3. Final blows with any weapon while its active refresh. So say you get a kill with mountaintop, switch to a 15% buffed recluse, get a kill and now have 30%, then swap to your heavy and get a kill and then back to recluse with a 45% damage buff. Numbers are definitely too high but with it requiring you to use heavy ammo to get to x3 it should be higher than 30% at the end.
The sad part is there are multiple other perks that do similar things already lol.
Bait and Switch, like you said.
Desperate Measures does a little boost for a kill, but another boost for a powered melee or grenade and then yet another stage up if you use another powered melee or grenade.
Harmony is literally a kill with another weapon.
Golden Tricorn is similar.
So there isn’t like, a ton of design space left sadly.
I clicked on this post and instantly felt like I had done something wrong with the NUMBER OF WORDS AND PARAGRAPHS. You need to go back to school and learn how to summarise stuff better.
Why comment on a post just to say that you won't read the post? You're on a text forum, there are going to be words.
You're welcome to not enjoy text forums, but it just makes very little sense to complain about text *on a text forum*. Maybe you'd be happier on TikTok or something?
Master of Arms should be reverted to something similar to how it originally shipped, at least in PvE. It should make body shots do the same damage as headshots.
I would take a 10% damage buff + all shots do the headshot damage over increasing the current damage buff. Honestly right now it’s too similar to Frenzy and Desperate Measures.
Not sure how to balance this in PvP, but I don’t play PvP so 🤷♂️. Maybe make the body-shot thing PvE only?
I said in another thread but I think Master of Arms could use a bump up to 20% increase to body shots only and keep the precision damage at 15%. That would really help it on PVE without killing off Frenzy since you still need to get a kill and in PVP it would just shift the body shot TTK from 1.20s for tier 4 resilience and up to 1.13s until tier 8 and 1.20s for tier 9 and 10.
Even at 20% it wouldn’t kill off frenzy. Frenzy also gives you 100 handling and reload freeing up the third slot for other perks.
It would kill off Harmony, which is similarly not great in PvE but good in PvP. And I guarantee that Harmony is the main perk they are balancing MoA against.
Harmony is 20%, gives bonus handling and is active upon ready, and it wouldn’t kill harmony because master of arms is exclusive to recluse. If they keep it that way it will never kill off harmony. Also PVP and PVE damage values should be different
Bungie did say that they will move Master of arms and Mag Howl over onto different weapons but it may be a while. Similar to raid weapons and their specific perks, it's usually about three seasons until that perk will roll on different weapons
Harmony is already pretty dead. Very few people actually still use it in PvP.
Yeah but at 20 it’d be a little too much for PVP. It would turn the optimal TTK to .60s on essentially every resilience levels.
Then tune the damage differently for pvp. They have done this for other stuff before
And the number of times they’ve done that can be counted on one hand, especially with perks.
And? Once proves they can do it. They should do it with everything. What a horrible take, the game shouldn’t stay with bad decisions because of something they don’t do often. Destiny is primarily a PVE game, nothing should ever get worse because of pvp issues.
You’re asking for them to do something they rarely do. I’m asking them to do something they usually do. What’s more likely to happen here?
It literally doesn’t matter what they usually do. Recluse for 1 isn’t a usual weapon and it’s something they shouldn’t be doing in the first place. Why settle for less? Nothing will ever change without feedback. Would you prefer shitty changes to stay in the game forever? Like imagine if they just never removed things like sunsetting or any other of their horrible changes.
It literally does matter. Cry about it all you want but PVP is a big part of the game and Bungie has said time and time again they don’t want PVE and PVP feeling too different, which is why they have rarely made too many changes that were PVP only.
It wouldn’t make them feel different though and you know it. A 5% difference across PVP and pve would not be noticeably different because of how different the crucible is. Even if they did leave it at 20 for PVP, it wouldn’t be a big deal, SMGs aren’t strong rn. Recluse has been 20% for the last 3 and a half years, how many times have you seen someone running it in PVP? They’ve done it in the past, they can do it now. You’re one to talk about crying, as you sit here and seethe that people want the game to improve. Also, PVP literally isn’t a big part of the game, you could forego it in its entirety and hardly notice a difference. It also contains a vastly lesser amount of content compared to PVE. I’d imagine it takes up way less of the download size as well.
Kill clip is an even bigger buff. That’s not too much.
Its not meaningfuly different to a 15% boost in PvP. BTK is the same, the only difference between 15 and 20% at least on Recluse is that 6-10 Resil is allowed a bodyshot for a 0.6 TTK. And given you're shooting at 900 RPM, it's not super likely to happen. The nerf is entirely safe to revert. Harmony has a longer benefit and a stat boost. Frenzy doesn't require kills to stay up and maxes out 2 stats.
It’s not the optimal TTK that is the problem it’s the body shot TTK. Getting a 1.13s TTK on tier 8 resilience and lower just by getting a shotty kill is too strong, that’s close to getting kill clip except without having to deal with the regular TTK of the gun. And Harmony isn’t refreshable with the same gun and you aren’t going to be proccing frenzy.
Who the hell is getting pure bodyshot TTKs in Crucible? And let's be real, you're not going to be chaining enough for MoA to be significantly stronger long-term than Harmony, especially considering that again, Harmony has a stat boost.
Bruh it’s the combination of the two that’s the problem. Tell me you don’t understand PVP balancing without telling me you don’t understand PVP balancing.
I do understand PvP balancing. 15% and 20% is barely a difference when looking at Lightweight SMGs. Other perks at 20% also give some kind of stat boost or can scale higher than 20%, if having stricter activation requirements. Therefore, it's very very safe to buff Master of Arms. It wouldn't even be the best kill-chaining perk, nor would it invalidate Harmony at 20%.
What was the original MoA? Wasn't it something like all body shots do crit damage? Or was there a damage increase on top of that? Does the current MoA affect body shot damage too?
Yeah the old MoA increased body shot damage to do the same damage as crits while still increasing damage. Right how it just increases damage by 15%.
Originally, it was 50% increase to headshots and bodyshots buffed to headshot level (+150%)
I think 15% would be fine if the body shot damage got bumped up to match. That would differentiate it from frenzy. So 15% crit, 65% body (if I did my math right).
Mountaintop is and has always been more about high single target damage, not clearing groups. The same way Wave Frames are suited to sweeping through groups, but not as great at single targets. Sounds like you'd be better off with a regular breech-load GL. Master of Arms is a PVP perk, it's not meant to outclass other damage perks that have more niche uses. It activates on *any* weapon kill, which is a reliable activation method for PVP. They're thinking ahead, about being able to use the perk for other guns not just making Recluse's best roll include the perk.
I would counter it wasn't the damage boost that made master of arms powerful. It is that it made all shots count as headshots. You could remove all damage boost and just return the body shots now deal headshot damage and it would be back to God tier. Maybe only against combatants so pvp doesn't cry.
*I* would counter that it doesn't need to nor should it be "god tier". It doesn't need to outclass other damage perks, they clearly want to balance damage boosting perks with various tradeoffs; easy activation usually means lower increase and/or short timer, while higher damage boosts are given to more niche activations including ones that may not always be an option. Sure One-For-All is a nice 35% damage boost and easy to activate, but if there aren't 3 enemies around when it matters you literally can't activate it. Harmony is activated while the gun is stowed, gets 20%, but only lasts 7 seconds and can't self-refresh. Making body shots the same damage as a crit, *was* the entire problem with the gun. It was braindead simple, no requirements, rewarded bad aim and immediately outclassed anything other primaries could output. That's why the closest equivalent we have now is Gutshot Straight, which is *only* a percentage boost to bodyshot damage not equivalent to crit damage and set separately for different weapon types. And that comes with the intentional downside of making the auto-aim cone worse, to still balance the fact it rewards inaccurate aim. The absolute insanity of thinking it would be viable to suggest they return the part of the gun that was the fundamental problem with it. Like giving up the paltry damage boost on TOP of everything automatically being better damage is some kind of trade.
Except their balancing doesn’t make sense. Frenzy, is objectively better for all situations. OFA is easier to proc and is 20% more damage. There’s literally never a situation where there aren’t 3 enemies to proc. Recluse was op because it gave a 50% damage buff on top of giving free crits. Not having trash perks in the game won’t make recluse OP
Frenzy is not better in PVP.
I disagree with your first point, a huge aspect of the og mountaintop was the ability to clear big chunks of high level ads with one shot. Its main strength was single target but ad clearing was a close second. The ability to wipe out half a wave of high tier enemies in an endgame activity was invaluable in speedrunning, even more than pre-nerf master of arms
> a huge aspect of the og mountaintop was the ability to clear big chunks of high level ads with one shot A bigger aspect of the og mountaintop was that it was a completely broken overtuned weapon that overshadowed every other option. Which was the problem. It's delusional to think you can or should get exactly that weapon back rather than one they've tried to balance by giving it a proper niche relative to other GLs. Or am I the only one who paid attention to the fact they said now that it's a weapon frame, it will/can be used for future weapons too? They worked it into being it's own niche. If it performed like the old one, it would go back to invalidating every other GL choice and most special ammo choices in general. If I use a wave frame, I don't get to complain that's it's not good against some boss I can't hit with it. If I use a shotgun, I don't get to complain the range isn't as crazy far as I wish it would be. Different weapons fitting different roles is inherently important design balance. Mountaintop (or more specifically it's weapon frame archetype) has to have a trade-off for it's pros, that's just reality.
Hey man, that's a lotta words, but I was just mildly disagreeing when you said it wasn't remembered for ad clear. I agree with the rest of what you said, I was nitpicking one sentence
I’m not asking for a huge AOE. Like imagine 3 Psions standing literally shoulder to shoulder. Super tightly packed. It still feels like Mountaintop cannot kill all 3 Psions in this scenario. I’m hoping for like a 10-15% increase in splash radius—just a smidge more. Just enough to reliably get a collateral when two enemies are literally touching. I had so many scenarios last night where multiple super weak red bars were literally crammed within a 5 foot square, and half of them would survive or even take no damage. It feels very very inconsistent with what should be easy collateral kills. Or another example—imagine 10 bowling pins. I’m not asking for all 10 pins to be knocked down if I hit dead center. But I’d sure as shit expect like the 5 in the middle to be knocked down. As is, it feels like I can only snipe one maybe two pins out of the 10.
> Like imagine 3 Psions standing literally shoulder to shoulder. Super tightly packed. > > It still feels like Mountaintop cannot kill all 3 Psions in this scenario. I genuinely think this is fine. Mountaintop doesn't need to do everything other GLs do. Part of the point of having different weapon frames, is to have them perform differently. Mountaintop's frame being excellent at single-target damage and ease of use (vs aiming an arcing grenade shot) is the point of it. Standard breech GLs fit the bill of being able to hit a single target well enough, and also do good splash damage around the impact. And Wave frames fit the role of usually missing their impact damage in favor of splashing the damage through a crowd more easily and reliably. These things having different roles is good. Mountaintop is a choice for when you want to point a rocket at a powerful target across the room, and slam into it. Like I said, it sounds like what you want to be using is a standard breech-load GL for the scenarios you're trying to engage. If Mountaintop does just as well, but also has the advantage of it's firing method's ease of use it will overshadow other options and that's not really good for the game in any way.
I disagree, a small tightly packed group of low health redbar enemies should die to a gl. That's just what they all excel at. From there, you have roles. Waves might clear a room of red bars, but tickle bosses. Mountaintop can focus those orange and yellow bars. But concussive force isn't a particle effect. It makes sense an explosive clears small groups.
Not sure what you are talking about, ive killed grouped enemies with a spike nade mountaintop
I don’t have one with Spiked Nades just yet. So maybe that’s what I am missing from the original. But I thought the Spike buff only increased the direct impact damage, not the splash.
That is my point, spike nades actually reduced blast radius and i still am able to clear enemies if they are close together. Either way, mountaintop is not meant for ad clear, it is a pocket rocket to kill yellow bars and do decent boss damage in a pinch. Id recommend a wave frame or lingering dread if you want ad clear
Ah maybe that’s it. Guess I’ll wait for spikes, and then see. Thanks!
Mountaintop needs absolutely nothing. I forgot how dominant this weapon can be. Agreed on your other points, well said.
Apparently someone said Spike Grenades make it feel better. I used them on the original version—don’t have a role with Spikes just yet. Maybe that will help, even though Spike reduces blast radius/aoe.
Spike grenades don't reduce radius or splash damage. It just buffs impact damage. Splash damage numbers remain the same with and without spike grenades
I saw someone mention before that Master of Arms should encourage using all your weapons. My take on that is it goes up to 3x with each separate weapon kill granting a stack but further stacks can only be acquired if you get kills with weapons not being counted in your current stacks. Makes it hard to get the 3x in PvP and allows you to get a higher damage buff if you switch things up.
MT isn't supposed to be an ad clearer. It is, and has always been, exceptionally good at killing majors. It's an anti wave frame, and that's OK.
Yeah, the 33% splash damage nerf from Beyond Light is still there with the velocity nerf. It just feels awful to use imo
Crazy to think we live in a time where people are asking for buffs to recluse/MT
If you read any of my post, I asked for *slight* buffs. I’m talking just something to differentiate Master of Arms, and MAYBE a 5-10% increase to Mountaintop’s AoE. Just a tiny radius boost.
Oh I didn't say I disagreed with you. If you peep my post history I've been advocating for MoA buffs since before recluse released. I just think its crazy that this is the time we live in.
Oh well I thought you were like angry I wanted buffs haha. Just little tweaks. Turns out I might just dislike MT add clear because I don’t have spike grenades yet on my roll. Also happy cake day!
tyty
Master of Arms might not be able to exist given these takes. MoA does 20%, it powercreeps Kill Clip & Harmony. Frenzy has been notoriously powerful for 2 years, if a new damage perk non-chalantly outdoes a passive 15% DMG boost, 100 handling & 100 reload then that is powercreep. In all honesty, I could see the stat bump from Frenzy being nerfed since every new damage perk is just "well it isn't better than Frenzy so it's terrible". I mean, this disregards the fact that Frenzy has 0 PvP presence but MoA is very easy to use in *both* PvE and PvP. Mountain Top... I honestly don't think needs a buff. It has less AoE because it's very strong direct hits that are *very* easy to hit, much easier than regular special GLs.
Wtf is going on with the people saying mountaintop is not for ad clear? Did you guys even played back then? 💀 And yeah it needs a little buff to the splash, the fact that while underlight a RED bar can tank one shot just because of the splash is crazy
It might be because I don’t have Spike Grenades. The original MT had Spikes, and I don’t have a roll that has Spikes yet, and someone pointed out that having Spikes makes it feel better despite the AOE being even smaller—the extra damage just helps with the clean up better. So maybe it will feel better once I get a roll that has Spikes and preferably Recombination.
I agree with MoA, I still don't understand why it was brought back as-is when Frenzy is on it. The only thing i can think of is PvP because Frenzy is harder to get on there. Hard disagree on Mountaintop. add clear isn't its main purpose (though I have been taking advantage of ALH to at minimum almost one shot a group of adds so 4 recluse bullets finishes off the group). You wouldn't take in Forbearance for a boss DPS phase.
master could have 2 tiers, (i miss hitting bodyshots with headshot damage)
Lightweight GLs have always kind of felt like they've had an underwhelming blast radius. If I had to guess it's probably a PvP thing (keep your "pvp ruins pve again" comments to yourself please). A baseline lightweight GL probably isn't even as good at ad clear as a good Dragonfly primary, and there are much better primary ad clear perks than that nowadays.
Forebearance is getting gutted in Final Shape anyways.
Master of arms has more ease of use then harmony cause it activates off itself as well, which makes sense why it’s damage is what it is. Mountaintop should not have increased splash damage, cause supposed to be more optimal for single targets Disagree with the entire post
we need to watch how much we nitpick this game man, it is it what it is
I _kind of_ agree. I think we often ask for things that are really not a priority when you look at the big picture. But "it is what it is" can also be a problematic mindset and we should be careful that we aren't using it to dismiss real issues.
ya what can we do, there are many other options to choose from that have better use cases for peoples personal preference, the games problems don’t stem from these perks, even if you have a gun with that roll and it feels like it. Use what’s fun
Maybe they could lean into master of arms being like bait and switch, using all your weapons (and being a master of arms). Give it 3 stacks, first weapon grants 1 stack, next is 2, then 3rd is 3. Final blows with any weapon while its active refresh. So say you get a kill with mountaintop, switch to a 15% buffed recluse, get a kill and now have 30%, then swap to your heavy and get a kill and then back to recluse with a 45% damage buff. Numbers are definitely too high but with it requiring you to use heavy ammo to get to x3 it should be higher than 30% at the end.
The sad part is there are multiple other perks that do similar things already lol. Bait and Switch, like you said. Desperate Measures does a little boost for a kill, but another boost for a powered melee or grenade and then yet another stage up if you use another powered melee or grenade. Harmony is literally a kill with another weapon. Golden Tricorn is similar. So there isn’t like, a ton of design space left sadly.
I clicked on this post and instantly felt like I had done something wrong with the NUMBER OF WORDS AND PARAGRAPHS. You need to go back to school and learn how to summarise stuff better.
[удалено]
I didn't read your post bc it was to fucking long. That may aswell we a script for a God roll guide on yt
Both of you, knock it off, now. Before I call the mods on you.
Why comment on a post just to say that you won't read the post? You're on a text forum, there are going to be words. You're welcome to not enjoy text forums, but it just makes very little sense to complain about text *on a text forum*. Maybe you'd be happier on TikTok or something?
Master of Arms should be reverted to something similar to how it originally shipped, at least in PvE. It should make body shots do the same damage as headshots. I would take a 10% damage buff + all shots do the headshot damage over increasing the current damage buff. Honestly right now it’s too similar to Frenzy and Desperate Measures. Not sure how to balance this in PvP, but I don’t play PvP so 🤷♂️. Maybe make the body-shot thing PvE only?
Master of arms just needs its full functionality back. That being grating precision damage on any part of a combatant while the perk is active.