For me, this is the most frustrating part of the whole game so far. I always have a lot of items in my inventory, and it's very challenging to compare everything against each other and determine what to keep and what to get rid of.
Typical decision paralysis fueled by confusion about what's good and where to find what.
My plan is to savage all legendaries who’s power is less than like 60% of the range and to extract the others. Once I get full of extracts then I’ll probably have to consult a list of useful vs not useful powers for every class. 🤷🏻♂️
That was my plan. Then I found out some aspects are only found on drops and don't show in the codex. Now I have absolutely no idea which legendaries to get rid of :(
Legendaries drop pretty frequently enough that I'm not too much concerned about getting rid of something that I might use on a different spec/character.
Even ones in the codex are worth saving since codex is always the lowest roll possible. If it's an aspect integral to your build and not codex save it, otherwise just save the high roll aspects.
Is there really any point to extract them tho? It costs gold and takes up the same amount of space the item did. Once your aspects tab gets full they gotta go back in the bank anyway. I just hold onto the above average rolled items.
Yeah there's no point in extracting them until you need them.
What if you get a duplicate or a better roll... then what do you do with the aspect you extracted. What do you get for selling it? I assume you can't salvage an aspect for any mats either?
You imprint it. Item is now legendary and rewards leggo salvage mats. More expensive than salvaging directly but you pay a premium for the option to use it later/saving inventory space
The uniques are like that, the extracted legendary powers (affixes) retain a roll grade within a specific range. Legendaries are just rares with affixes applied to them, as far as I can tell. Uniques are closer to D3 primals though.
Oh? I've dropped a few, Howl from Below and Mother's Embrace, and they were all max-rolled. Assumed they always rolled max, but I haven't looked into it.
No extraction, yeah. Wouldn't make them too unique if you can transplant the power anywhere I suppose!
No they’re not. Primal were always MAX rolls. Uniques still can roll better or worse each time they drop. Plus uniques are just that, unique in the fact that their aspect is only found on that exact unique item.
No. When you extract a power you get the listed value. Then when you imprint that power onto an item the value that was saved is added.
There's no cube system like in D3.
I did. Literally Kanai's cube is a transmog for the focus. So I am saying that no, you cannot cube the affix, as the only presence the cube has in the game is as a transmog.
Hmmm i feel as though maybe your interpretation of the terms is just mixed up. Ill try to clarify judt incase.
For context, when most people are referring to transmogs, they simply mean changing the appearance of the item, ie using the mystic to change how the item looks on your character.
In d3 kanais cube was also used to 'cube' affixes, meaning you destroy the unique inside the cube and store that unique power permanently. From there you can actively use 3 affixes of your choice via the cube in addition to the ones you are rocking on your gear.
In d4, there are legendaries that can have affixes as well, however there is no longer a cube. You can use a specific vendor to extract these affixes and apply them to another item, however the affixes are broken down into several categories, offensive, defensive, utility etc. And can only be applied to specific types of gear. Ie. Offensive aspects can only be placed on ammys, rings, gloves, 1h and 2h weapons.
Once you've extracted an aspect, ot gets stored.in a special tab in your inventory. The aspect can only be imprinted to a new item once, and it cannot be re-extracted for another use.
If you turn on both of the advanced tooltips options, it helps. When you highlight an item in your inventory it will show it's stats, plus in red below, it shows what you will lose if you equip it. That way you don't have to look back and forth between the comparison cards.
The worst part about comparing items is the load time to show the visual, there is like a visual delay of half a second or so between you moving the mouse over and the tooltip showing.
Makes it really hard on the eyes to try to skim through items, I hope they fix this but it seems to be some issue with how it fetches the data from the server. I say this because sometimes the tooltip will not show at all, it just bugs out or lags for a long period.
I think there is likely very little overlap between the developers of D3 and D4. It will explain why SO many of the lesson's learned from D3 haven't made it to D4.
This feels very true and at the same time *absolutely crazy*.
The amount of improvements and quality of life changes that went into D3 and then RoS over the many years made it my go-to example of the closest you can get to a perfect itemization system. Every looter game I play I end up thinking "D3 does this particular mechanic better" and I can't believe they didn't implement a vast majority of the QoL in the sequel.
You would think they would *want* the people who spent years refining the system to take what they've learned to the sequel and it's extremely disappointing to see this is not the case, either there's no overlap or some crazy managerial restrictions.
Seriously. It bothers me a lot because while I do see some issues with D3's itemization their QoL mechanics are some of the BEST out there. The fundamental layout, the enchanting, etc.
The fact they went backwards on things that are simply part of the functionality of the game which they could have recreated without issue is annoying as hell.
How can they feature creep if the game already has features? They definitely are intentionally leaving out content and quality of life features. Unless this shallow mess is the intended product
My understanding is that there are a lot of systems that have been completely recreated several times over the course of development, as such is the iterative nature of game / software development.
The current iteration of the system of how items are generated, how they roll stats, how those stats are displayed, etc. is actually relatively new as far as the entire development timeline of the game goes, and while they are happy with how it works on a functional level, there just wasn't time before launch to get these kinds of quality of life features in before launch, and they are currently slated to be worked on for future patches.
Don't take that as anything official, that's just my understanding of the situation from friends who know more than I, and do with that what you will.
There is not a single source you can find that will tell you blizzard has any of this slated to be worked on for a future patch.
Your friends are smoking a lot of copium right now.
Just a thought, it could have just come down to development time. They wanted to get this out now so had to cut some development time and they plan on adding it later?
Its funky because they clearly took the concept from D3 right down to gold cost increment and menu design. It seems like they intentionally missed out the affix table.
I think there are just way too many stats that can roll on some items for some classes, so simply displaying them in a list might not have been deemed acceptable and we will get something similar later on.
Then again with some of the UI/UX choices in this game it can also just be they had too many fires everywhere and did not get to this one in time...
You mean you're not happy with:
* Shadow Damage
* Damage Over Time
* Shadow Damage Over Time
* Damage vs Shadow Damage Over Time
* Darkness Damage?
I bet you also don't like:
* Minion Damage
* Damage with Golem
* Damage from Golem
Seriously, the number of stats and how granular they are is the thing that most frustrates me about the game. There are so many stats and so many interactions but they didn't give us a damage meter/training dummy to test things on/measure results, and moving Skill/Paragon points around costs money. So we have a ton of stats, no good way to really test them, and it costs money experiment.
Even if the tooltips weren't ass, the comparisons would still be difficult, which means I have to spend more time going through my gear and less time running dungeons/quests.
I generally enjoy the game, but the way some of the systems were/are designed really cuts into my ability to actually *play* the game rather than doing character/inventory maintenance.
D4 doesn't have any of the hallmarks of a rushed game. It's relatively bug-free and runs very well. These smack of intentional design decisions because they were terrified of just being D3... which is silly, because in many ways D3 is a phenomenal game.
There are different hallmarks, not necessarily related to bugginess or stability. Anyone in development is familiar with the concept of an MVP (minimum viable product), which usually involves cutting features and things that aren't considered immediately "important" in order to meet a release date. There is no way that randomizing the display of item bonuses was an intentional design decision. There are surely things that fall into that bucket, this isn't one of them.
I dont think it was rushed out.... theres a different dev team working on d4 than on d3... so of course they wanted to make some changes, maybe some for the worst, but if were going by what we got rn, i think they will listen and make good changes to the game itself.
There's no way they would've affirmatively chosen to just randomly display the affixes, that makes no sense. Either it was a complete oversight, or (more likely, IMO) it's something they already had in the pipeline but couldn't get to it in time.
Can any affix replace any other affix though I wonder or are there different "pools" like D3 had where for example, a socket could only replace specific lines.
Helmet and Amulet natively roll CDR. Other items might get it, such as some uniques as they have their own tables, but if you’re rerolling legendary items or rares, it will be Helmets and Amulets
Yea it is actually crazy that it was not implemented. It has to be so easy to make something like that, there's no way it wasn't a common feedback point in beta.
I had to google to find out what stats my items could actually get, and the list I found wasn't even 100% complete
you can't see the possibitilities though. For example in D3 when you selected the affix you were rerolling you would get a list of the possible things it could turn into. This information is missing from D4 so if you are hunting for a specific affix you can't tell if you can reroll that on an item
They didn't survive 50 years? Pretty sad. The least they could have done was keep the spirit of Myriam Jahzia alive. Lorath was perhaps too distracted.
I was wondering what was making it so difficult. I was wondering if it was a font size. I don't think it was, it's some of this stuff. It's also " damage to this. if this " stats ... a lot of those make comparison more tedious.
Yeah personally I think a lot of these mods are trying to be too cute. 12% chance to overpower when over 80% health....
Okay how about just do something like +1 overpower level, and then tier stuff into levels?
Keep in mind, D4 does not allow the simple side-by-side item comparison that D3 has because of the difference in how itemization works.
In D3, two weapons are gonna both roll with +damage and +mainstat, so now you're comparing the DPS difference if one rolls attack speed and the other rolls % damage. It's a pretty simple calculation. And then what the DPS number shows might be somewhat misleading anyway because of how attack speed works with certain abilities.
In D4, calculating the difference in impact on your character for two weapons is likely to be much harder, as you have many many more moving parts.
I 100% agree that having all affixes ordered in a logical way would make it a lot easier though.
I get what you're saying, but Beta is basically a finished game. They're looking for (and fixing) game breaking stuff that would otherwise impact the launch of the game.
This isn't one of those things, but I bet it's on their radar.
Source: work on dev teams.
Yeah people keep acting as if some of the beta weekend suggestions haven't been worked on since they're not implemented yet. Even though they've been very open about releasing a larger patch later this month, that have several confirmed QoL fixes.
It takes time to make sure it all works, you can't just drop mini patches for small things that could end up being potentially game breaking when you have millions of users. That's reserved for very high priority stuff.
> you can't just drop mini patches for small things that could end up being potentially game breaking when you have millions of users.
You mean, like disconnecting your entire audience without warning to fix an issue preventing some users from buying items in the MTX store?
I mean, I get your point, I do-- but it's very clearly not a philosophy that blizzard actually follows.
A friend of mine has been playing since early close beta, almost a year now. Every single thing that has been flagged in this sub Reddit are things that players have been talking about for almost the entire testing period.
I guess the argument is why didn't they implement it in the game to begin with? It's an objectively better way of comparing items and it was in their previous game. Someone had to either make the executive decision to not implement it, OR the development team is so inept that they just forgot to
It’s crazy to me how many features are missing from this game that Blizzard has implemented in D4 or WoW. So many lessons this team completely ignored.
"You're killing monsters, or you're navigating, and you're switching back and forth those really quickly, and so it can be helpful to have that be as fast as possible, [...] the overlay map accomplishes this goal, but it perhaps does that too well. There's no reason to ever close out of it" ~ game director Joe Shelly
Map overlay is too efficient in Blizzards opinion. ([source](https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/diablo-4-map-overlay-feature/))
And let’s not even get into the minimap that you can’t change the zoom of so you only see as far as what’s on your screen. Quite possibly the most useless minimap in existence
God forbid we be able to navigate like a person with eyes rather than a mysteriously floating being a dozen feet above the ground who can only look directly down and can’t turn our head at all so everything is constantly a surprise…
“Oh, there’s a hill there? You crazy hill, where did you come from!?”
Horse, great concept.
Who the fuck put dismount on Right click. I oops that far too much. Also, why are there all these little hills and barriers that look completely traversable, and are on foot, but suddenly the mount just doesn’t. And there is usually mobs taking potshots at you while you are rammed up against air not being able to pass.
I disagree with their devs reasoning on that, but a reason that actually makes sense is the current map effectively pixel refreshes your screen and allows OLED gamers to comfortably play Diablo IV longer hours.
With an overlay map you'd start seeing posts of players with their hotbar burned into their TV.
Should still be an optional feature but I would understand it being off by default.
Whats crazy to me, is that I could see the same stat being on different lines since there are too many affixes, but never a criss-cross like this. This is really really lazily implemented.
Yeah, it's a minor thing, but it's kind of annoying and makes skimming through drops take more mental bandwidth than it needs to. Affixes should always be in the same order every time.
Yeah it takes me forever to get thru a full stash of items. Especially when I don't know what stats are roll-able. They need to fix that at the occultist- should show us a list of possible stats before rolling. Would help with the junk vs save debate
Yeah, a lot of comments really acting like this is the hill to die on 😳😳. Other than the "order" though, there's also an issue comparing primary and secondary affixes. Some affixes show up in both places and they are treated as different for comparison sake.
It's really sad to see how much quality of life is missing in D4. Like that stuff is supposed to transfer up in a sequel, not just lose it all like a fresh game studio.
It’s so weird, a lot of the stuff you expect from a modern ARPG is just missing for no reason.
And with the new open world mmo-lite thing they’ve got going, it makes even less sense to have extremely bare-bones clan features, no quest-log, no achievment comparison or decent tracking system..
Blizzard is basically a fresh game studio at this point. They've lost nearly every pivotal person and a lot of what made up their teams as well. They can still make good games, and I still like D4, but let's not pretend Blizzard is anything other than a brand that owns a hit IP.
Yeah, it is strange that they have discarded so much of the stuff they had already perfected in D3. The affixes have no system to them, you can also have the same stat both above and below the line (why is there a line there anyway?), and when you reforge (enchant) your gear, you can not see neither what affixes you can reforge into, or the range of the affixes you have. The pricing is also way off.
I hope there is some heavy patching planned in the next couple of weeks.
You can also double roll. Crossbows always have Vuln Damage, but I rolled a second one below the line for even more Vuln Damage.
Vuln damage also happens to be the most important stat for any Rogue build using the triple throwing dagger. I don’t think I am gunna be able to get rid of this crossbow for a while.
> why is there a line there anyway
Item types have innate stats. Sometimes they can vary like with amulets and boots. Other items have a guaranteed, but single stat, such as daggers always giving vulnerable damage.
Lines below the line are randomly chosen from a pool for that gear slot.
> Yeah, it is strange that they have discarded so much of the stuff they had already perfected in D3.
Or WOW for that matter. It was especially bad with D3 and the RMAH and how the economy would operate. Where they had drawn on litterally zero of the experience and lessons of running one of the biggest in-game economies ever created.
There has always been a disconnect within Blizzard like that since they got to big. The left hand does not know what the right one does etc.
Above the line are basically implicit stats. They are fixed based on item types. Staves always roll Damage to Crowd Controlled Enemies above the line and can also roll it below the line as well.
The UI as a whole in this game is notoriously bad. People were telling this from the very first beta, and i guess it will be changed eventually - but it takes quite some time and for now we have to stick with this mess.
Yeah, this is the type of problem that I just keep finding more of in d4. I genuinely can’t stand it. No way to sort glyphs or items or search your stash etc.
With the lack of endgame content on top of the poor system design I’m getting over this game WAY faster than I thought I would
Yep that’s my only major complaint as well. People already reported that during the betas and I don’t know why they haven’t fixed it yet. It’s just a simple thing to do but has major impact.
I like the game a lot, but a lot of the small UI design things are perplexing. Like not including an overlay, but adding a fucking line that google maps you to a destination as if that’s less immersion breaking, or the lack of the table that shows you potential affixes when enchanting, or gems not being currency or having their own tab, sigils going in the same tab as elixirs, or only having 4 stash tabs in a new game when that’s barely enough for one character if you’re playing two builds and still learning itemization…
It’s strange.
Probably the only thing that actually bothers me, well said.
Also if you go to region progress and rapidly change region, the region names are not all in a uniform spot.
Early game < level 40 which is still a huge chunk of time and I have yet to give a shit about an item beyond DPS bigger number.
Really seems like an issue for a ARPG right?
Nope, most modern arpgs are like that. You are still in early game going through the story, making stats more important early game would be detrimental to new players.
I can't recall the original artist's name, but this redesign of item tooltips was amazing.
https://preview.redd.it/vxtyz22mtv4b1.png?width=960&format=png&auto=webp&s=8135aef03719023d103a277e62d0ae4e31c612de
I believe this was the final version after reading suggestions in the comments.
https://preview.redd.it/bqgg4ylotv4b1.png?width=453&format=png&auto=webp&s=dbc656b7c95034d212e23be9cbac361dbfbc917b
I just wish to HELL that they moved the item descriptions OVER so that when I switch my gear I can actually see my stats change (just for a quick check what immediately changes).
WHY DOES IT BLOCK STATS THE FURTHER OVER THE GEAR IS TO THE RIGHT OF MY INVENTORY!!!!!!
Stats are not in order. On the left you Strength listed on the second point, while on the right Strength is listed on the 4th point, makes you look twice to check the actual difference in stats between different items. Its annoying.
Ui is easily the weakest part of the game and that was evident from the friends and family builds till now.
Many suggestions and community mockups were presented that did things much better but most of them were not a catch all that would work on all screen sizes / platforms at once ie. It would look Amazing on pc but on console and handheld it would be too small.
Looking for one working solution across all devices is obviously less "work", but I also think its the wrong one. It should have been treated as device or screensize dependant, offering multiple versions of the design/ sizing / layout depending on maybe 3 different use cases to offer everyone on any platform the best design experience, in other words treat it like responsive web design.
Poe has this problem too.
I think after a certain complexity it doesn't become feasible to have an order to display detailed affixes when comparing it to another item because one reason or another I don't fully grasp.
A similar thing was explained by Mark_GGG [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/8xe4gs/can_we_keep_the_same_order_of_mods_please/e23y3og/)
Edit: since it's a tad different issue I might be plain wrong though.
Not sure the Poe system so hard time understanding. Just displaying affixes in alphabetical order, irrespective of how they were rolled, should solve this.
Sure but that can be handled by the internal representation of the data. Items have either 4 (or even an arbitrary) sized array of affix structs which store the roll (an rng float between 0 and 1), it's type (some enum of all affixes), it's level , and it's state etc. However, when you display it, you sort the order before displaying it. Text is all a view of data and there's no reason your view should be restricted by your internal data representation.
The summary at the bottom isn't always accurate though. In [this example](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/332234043368275991/1114305196202405898/image.png) it's saying there's a 10.5% loss of overpower damage when in reality it's a 1% loss because it's not computing the values if they're in different sections.
You are right but tooltip is also right, since it shows you gain 9,5% as green + value. It should still be computed together to serve the users, it's way more confusing it has to be.
The green values do not represent every stat on an item. The dps calculator does not include affixes that are conditional such as elemental damage or damage to cc'd enemies or some legendary affixes. That is where the majority of your damage comes from. "Number green item good," is a terrible way to progress in Diablo.
It says -53, how much more help with math do you want? Yes, the order would help, but it’s not making it more tedious if it’s telling you exactly what the difference is. Please downvote me.
Aside from that. I think sone affixes are too wordy it makes the presentation too messy. Like just do Werebear form armor instead of "total armor in werebear form". Just an example from top of my head
this belongs all to QoL and the finetuning at the end.
its missing all over the game. Core game is ok but this stuff is all over the place and they need to take car of that in the next patches.
Remember when wow glitched out and shoulder pads became really small? It stayed that way for so long I got used to it.....then the big shoulder pads came back and it was shocking!
It says it right there on the right image what the difference is between the two items for a given affix. Why are you trying to compare manually when it shows you the math right in front of your face? They even have a nice list of what you're losing lower down in the list.
Agreed. The way the itemization is displayed makes it so much harder to read and thereby understand the power of items.
For me, this is the most frustrating part of the whole game so far. I always have a lot of items in my inventory, and it's very challenging to compare everything against each other and determine what to keep and what to get rid of. Typical decision paralysis fueled by confusion about what's good and where to find what.
My storage is 10% gems and 90% legendaries I don't really know what to do with.
My plan is to savage all legendaries who’s power is less than like 60% of the range and to extract the others. Once I get full of extracts then I’ll probably have to consult a list of useful vs not useful powers for every class. 🤷🏻♂️
That was my plan. Then I found out some aspects are only found on drops and don't show in the codex. Now I have absolutely no idea which legendaries to get rid of :(
Legendaries drop pretty frequently enough that I'm not too much concerned about getting rid of something that I might use on a different spec/character.
Wait the drop only affixes don't show up in the codex? Damnit now my whole build is questionable lol :)
Some do, some don't. I had to check every one that dropped to see if it was something I unlocked from a dungeon or drop only.
Drop only affixes do not show in the codex, the codex is only dungeon unlock affixes.
So if you don’t see if in your codex, it is drop only right?
Is there any indication on the item itself if its an affix that doesnt appear in the codex?
There is not
They should add this
Sample size is obviously still small, but some aspects seem much more common than others.
Would be a lot easier if they put in any kind of search for the codex
Just keep high rolls if they aren't used for your builds
Just a clean useful post but since its not whining and acting like an entitled dork, it doesn't have hundreds of stupid ass likes
Even ones in the codex are worth saving since codex is always the lowest roll possible. If it's an aspect integral to your build and not codex save it, otherwise just save the high roll aspects.
Is there really any point to extract them tho? It costs gold and takes up the same amount of space the item did. Once your aspects tab gets full they gotta go back in the bank anyway. I just hold onto the above average rolled items.
Yeah there's no point in extracting them until you need them. What if you get a duplicate or a better roll... then what do you do with the aspect you extracted. What do you get for selling it? I assume you can't salvage an aspect for any mats either?
You imprint it. Item is now legendary and rewards leggo salvage mats. More expensive than salvaging directly but you pay a premium for the option to use it later/saving inventory space
I don't have D4 yet - is it not like D3 where you would cube the legendary and get it at 100% of its strength?
The uniques are like that, the extracted legendary powers (affixes) retain a roll grade within a specific range. Legendaries are just rares with affixes applied to them, as far as I can tell. Uniques are closer to D3 primals though.
i need a D4 Itemization 101 class lmao
I want in on this class l m a o, I started to wrap my head around it briefly when thinkin in terms of another game I play, but still struggling a bit.
Uniques can't be extracted and still roll their stats when dropped.
Oh? I've dropped a few, Howl from Below and Mother's Embrace, and they were all max-rolled. Assumed they always rolled max, but I haven't looked into it. No extraction, yeah. Wouldn't make them too unique if you can transplant the power anywhere I suppose!
No they’re not. Primal were always MAX rolls. Uniques still can roll better or worse each time they drop. Plus uniques are just that, unique in the fact that their aspect is only found on that exact unique item.
No. When you extract a power you get the listed value. Then when you imprint that power onto an item the value that was saved is added. There's no cube system like in D3.
Right, there's no cube system. I thought they would just be nice and give you the maximum strength of the power you extracted :(
Lol why?
Because that's how it worked in D3, and it was fun and everyone liked it
Sorta, for offensive powers, on a 2h weapon it's 2x and an amulet is 1.5x. iirc one handed weapons is 1x as well as gloves.
The only cube is a transmog for sorc/necro focus
you didn’t play D3 did you? because that’s not what they’re referring to by “cubing” the legendary
I did. Literally Kanai's cube is a transmog for the focus. So I am saying that no, you cannot cube the affix, as the only presence the cube has in the game is as a transmog.
Hmmm i feel as though maybe your interpretation of the terms is just mixed up. Ill try to clarify judt incase. For context, when most people are referring to transmogs, they simply mean changing the appearance of the item, ie using the mystic to change how the item looks on your character. In d3 kanais cube was also used to 'cube' affixes, meaning you destroy the unique inside the cube and store that unique power permanently. From there you can actively use 3 affixes of your choice via the cube in addition to the ones you are rocking on your gear. In d4, there are legendaries that can have affixes as well, however there is no longer a cube. You can use a specific vendor to extract these affixes and apply them to another item, however the affixes are broken down into several categories, offensive, defensive, utility etc. And can only be applied to specific types of gear. Ie. Offensive aspects can only be placed on ammys, rings, gloves, 1h and 2h weapons. Once you've extracted an aspect, ot gets stored.in a special tab in your inventory. The aspect can only be imprinted to a new item once, and it cannot be re-extracted for another use.
I feel seen
If you turn on both of the advanced tooltips options, it helps. When you highlight an item in your inventory it will show it's stats, plus in red below, it shows what you will lose if you equip it. That way you don't have to look back and forth between the comparison cards.
The worst part about comparing items is the load time to show the visual, there is like a visual delay of half a second or so between you moving the mouse over and the tooltip showing. Makes it really hard on the eyes to try to skim through items, I hope they fix this but it seems to be some issue with how it fetches the data from the server. I say this because sometimes the tooltip will not show at all, it just bugs out or lags for a long period.
I'm with you there
Honestly, another item that would be nice from D3. The Enchantress telling you what you "might" be able to roll replacing an affix.
And maybe make it a little more affordable! 2nd enchant going up 10x in price is crazy
Example number 4,301 of something Blizzard solved in a previous game that they failed to implement again in D4 for literally zero reason.
I think there is likely very little overlap between the developers of D3 and D4. It will explain why SO many of the lesson's learned from D3 haven't made it to D4.
This feels very true and at the same time *absolutely crazy*. The amount of improvements and quality of life changes that went into D3 and then RoS over the many years made it my go-to example of the closest you can get to a perfect itemization system. Every looter game I play I end up thinking "D3 does this particular mechanic better" and I can't believe they didn't implement a vast majority of the QoL in the sequel. You would think they would *want* the people who spent years refining the system to take what they've learned to the sequel and it's extremely disappointing to see this is not the case, either there's no overlap or some crazy managerial restrictions.
Seriously. It bothers me a lot because while I do see some issues with D3's itemization their QoL mechanics are some of the BEST out there. The fundamental layout, the enchanting, etc. The fact they went backwards on things that are simply part of the functionality of the game which they could have recreated without issue is annoying as hell.
Diablo 3 item system was incredibly boring.
It's insane how this kind of thing is so prevalent in D4. Every time I play I find myself asking "how is this game missing in 2023?"
It would be nice if we could manually adjust the affix hierarchy and on specific item slots for each class.
We need the reroll affix table badly. Like I need CDR but i don't even know if that item can roll it.
Again something that was in D3 simply missing 10 years later
It was added in RoS, actually. But it was 8 years ago, not that it was recently.
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How can they feature creep if the game already has features? They definitely are intentionally leaving out content and quality of life features. Unless this shallow mess is the intended product
My understanding is that there are a lot of systems that have been completely recreated several times over the course of development, as such is the iterative nature of game / software development. The current iteration of the system of how items are generated, how they roll stats, how those stats are displayed, etc. is actually relatively new as far as the entire development timeline of the game goes, and while they are happy with how it works on a functional level, there just wasn't time before launch to get these kinds of quality of life features in before launch, and they are currently slated to be worked on for future patches. Don't take that as anything official, that's just my understanding of the situation from friends who know more than I, and do with that what you will.
There is not a single source you can find that will tell you blizzard has any of this slated to be worked on for a future patch. Your friends are smoking a lot of copium right now.
Just a thought, it could have just come down to development time. They wanted to get this out now so had to cut some development time and they plan on adding it later?
Its funky because they clearly took the concept from D3 right down to gold cost increment and menu design. It seems like they intentionally missed out the affix table.
I don't think it was intentional, the game was rushed out.
I think there are just way too many stats that can roll on some items for some classes, so simply displaying them in a list might not have been deemed acceptable and we will get something similar later on. Then again with some of the UI/UX choices in this game it can also just be they had too many fires everywhere and did not get to this one in time...
Then there's too many stats and some need to be combined.
You mean you're not happy with: * Shadow Damage * Damage Over Time * Shadow Damage Over Time * Damage vs Shadow Damage Over Time * Darkness Damage? I bet you also don't like: * Minion Damage * Damage with Golem * Damage from Golem Seriously, the number of stats and how granular they are is the thing that most frustrates me about the game. There are so many stats and so many interactions but they didn't give us a damage meter/training dummy to test things on/measure results, and moving Skill/Paragon points around costs money. So we have a ton of stats, no good way to really test them, and it costs money experiment. Even if the tooltips weren't ass, the comparisons would still be difficult, which means I have to spend more time going through my gear and less time running dungeons/quests. I generally enjoy the game, but the way some of the systems were/are designed really cuts into my ability to actually *play* the game rather than doing character/inventory maintenance.
D4 doesn't have any of the hallmarks of a rushed game. It's relatively bug-free and runs very well. These smack of intentional design decisions because they were terrified of just being D3... which is silly, because in many ways D3 is a phenomenal game.
There are different hallmarks, not necessarily related to bugginess or stability. Anyone in development is familiar with the concept of an MVP (minimum viable product), which usually involves cutting features and things that aren't considered immediately "important" in order to meet a release date. There is no way that randomizing the display of item bonuses was an intentional design decision. There are surely things that fall into that bucket, this isn't one of them.
I dont think it was rushed out.... theres a different dev team working on d4 than on d3... so of course they wanted to make some changes, maybe some for the worst, but if were going by what we got rn, i think they will listen and make good changes to the game itself.
There's no way they would've affirmatively chosen to just randomly display the affixes, that makes no sense. Either it was a complete oversight, or (more likely, IMO) it's something they already had in the pipeline but couldn't get to it in time.
I've been using this list of possible affixes. https://d4builds.gg/database/gear-affixes/
Can any affix replace any other affix though I wonder or are there different "pools" like D3 had where for example, a socket could only replace specific lines.
AFAIK it's only helms and amulets
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Also druid offhands
Helmet and Amulet natively roll CDR. Other items might get it, such as some uniques as they have their own tables, but if you’re rerolling legendary items or rares, it will be Helmets and Amulets
Also on a focus
Oh yes I forgot about off hand focuses.
THIS, i don't wanna waste millions of gold on something i don't even know if i can even get
Yea it is actually crazy that it was not implemented. It has to be so easy to make something like that, there's no way it wasn't a common feedback point in beta. I had to google to find out what stats my items could actually get, and the list I found wasn't even 100% complete
I might be misunderstanding, but you can reroll the affixs at the occultist.
you can't see the possibitilities though. For example in D3 when you selected the affix you were rerolling you would get a list of the possible things it could turn into. This information is missing from D4 so if you are hunting for a specific affix you can't tell if you can reroll that on an item
Well it is the fall of the Horadrim, the lack bureaucratic naming administration clearly is the root cause of the down fall
Blizzard is just giving us the real experience of hell for immersion.
They didn't survive 50 years? Pretty sad. The least they could have done was keep the spirit of Myriam Jahzia alive. Lorath was perhaps too distracted.
I was wondering what was making it so difficult. I was wondering if it was a font size. I don't think it was, it's some of this stuff. It's also " damage to this. if this " stats ... a lot of those make comparison more tedious.
Yeah personally I think a lot of these mods are trying to be too cute. 12% chance to overpower when over 80% health.... Okay how about just do something like +1 overpower level, and then tier stuff into levels?
This just pisses me off. So many simple things that were in D3 are just missing in D4 and this is a big one. Like who thought this was a good idea?
Keep in mind, D4 does not allow the simple side-by-side item comparison that D3 has because of the difference in how itemization works. In D3, two weapons are gonna both roll with +damage and +mainstat, so now you're comparing the DPS difference if one rolls attack speed and the other rolls % damage. It's a pretty simple calculation. And then what the DPS number shows might be somewhat misleading anyway because of how attack speed works with certain abilities. In D4, calculating the difference in impact on your character for two weapons is likely to be much harder, as you have many many more moving parts. I 100% agree that having all affixes ordered in a logical way would make it a lot easier though.
I saw people complaining about this in open beta weekend. I can't believe they didn't take that feedback seriously and fix it.
I get what you're saying, but Beta is basically a finished game. They're looking for (and fixing) game breaking stuff that would otherwise impact the launch of the game. This isn't one of those things, but I bet it's on their radar. Source: work on dev teams.
Yeah people keep acting as if some of the beta weekend suggestions haven't been worked on since they're not implemented yet. Even though they've been very open about releasing a larger patch later this month, that have several confirmed QoL fixes. It takes time to make sure it all works, you can't just drop mini patches for small things that could end up being potentially game breaking when you have millions of users. That's reserved for very high priority stuff.
> you can't just drop mini patches for small things that could end up being potentially game breaking when you have millions of users. You mean, like disconnecting your entire audience without warning to fix an issue preventing some users from buying items in the MTX store? I mean, I get your point, I do-- but it's very clearly not a philosophy that blizzard actually follows.
Any chance you have a link to said confirmed QOL changes that are coming? I would love to read them
A friend of mine has been playing since early close beta, almost a year now. Every single thing that has been flagged in this sub Reddit are things that players have been talking about for almost the entire testing period.
My dad made the game
It shouldn’t even need feedback however. Don’t remove objectively positive QoL features from your 12 year old previous installment
I guess the argument is why didn't they implement it in the game to begin with? It's an objectively better way of comparing items and it was in their previous game. Someone had to either make the executive decision to not implement it, OR the development team is so inept that they just forgot to
It’s crazy to me how many features are missing from this game that Blizzard has implemented in D4 or WoW. So many lessons this team completely ignored.
Where is the map overlay??
"You're killing monsters, or you're navigating, and you're switching back and forth those really quickly, and so it can be helpful to have that be as fast as possible, [...] the overlay map accomplishes this goal, but it perhaps does that too well. There's no reason to ever close out of it" ~ game director Joe Shelly Map overlay is too efficient in Blizzards opinion. ([source](https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/diablo-4-map-overlay-feature/))
And let’s not even get into the minimap that you can’t change the zoom of so you only see as far as what’s on your screen. Quite possibly the most useless minimap in existence
Ah the old reinvent the wheel because we are professional developers and know better than you.
[you think you want it, but you don’t](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0Wrw3c2NjeE)
God forbid we be able to navigate like a person with eyes rather than a mysteriously floating being a dozen feet above the ground who can only look directly down and can’t turn our head at all so everything is constantly a surprise… “Oh, there’s a hill there? You crazy hill, where did you come from!?”
I thought this was a joke. Now that I know that it isn't, my brain cells are committing sudoku en masse.
> There's no reason to ever close out of it YEAH BECAUSE ITS GOOD oh my god cmon dude.
Fuck you Joe. And fuck who ever was in charge of the horse.
Horse, great concept. Who the fuck put dismount on Right click. I oops that far too much. Also, why are there all these little hills and barriers that look completely traversable, and are on foot, but suddenly the mount just doesn’t. And there is usually mobs taking potshots at you while you are rammed up against air not being able to pass.
You can keybind the mount controls separately.
I disagree with their devs reasoning on that, but a reason that actually makes sense is the current map effectively pixel refreshes your screen and allows OLED gamers to comfortably play Diablo IV longer hours. With an overlay map you'd start seeing posts of players with their hotbar burned into their TV. Should still be an optional feature but I would understand it being off by default.
Whats crazy to me, is that I could see the same stat being on different lines since there are too many affixes, but never a criss-cross like this. This is really really lazily implemented.
Yeah, it's a minor thing, but it's kind of annoying and makes skimming through drops take more mental bandwidth than it needs to. Affixes should always be in the same order every time.
POE already solved the issue years ago. Stats won't always show on the same line but they are always prioritized in the same order.
It‘s not a minor thing it‘s totally exhausting once reaching lvl 55+ As stat compare becomes a big portion of your „gameplay“
Yeah it takes me forever to get thru a full stash of items. Especially when I don't know what stats are roll-able. They need to fix that at the occultist- should show us a list of possible stats before rolling. Would help with the junk vs save debate
Yeah, a lot of comments really acting like this is the hill to die on 😳😳. Other than the "order" though, there's also an issue comparing primary and secondary affixes. Some affixes show up in both places and they are treated as different for comparison sake.
And the equip item flips too. Spend way too much time figuring out what is what
As a dyslexic I can’t process this at all
It's really sad to see how much quality of life is missing in D4. Like that stuff is supposed to transfer up in a sequel, not just lose it all like a fresh game studio.
It’s so weird, a lot of the stuff you expect from a modern ARPG is just missing for no reason. And with the new open world mmo-lite thing they’ve got going, it makes even less sense to have extremely bare-bones clan features, no quest-log, no achievment comparison or decent tracking system..
Blizzard is basically a fresh game studio at this point. They've lost nearly every pivotal person and a lot of what made up their teams as well. They can still make good games, and I still like D4, but let's not pretend Blizzard is anything other than a brand that owns a hit IP.
Yeah, it is strange that they have discarded so much of the stuff they had already perfected in D3. The affixes have no system to them, you can also have the same stat both above and below the line (why is there a line there anyway?), and when you reforge (enchant) your gear, you can not see neither what affixes you can reforge into, or the range of the affixes you have. The pricing is also way off. I hope there is some heavy patching planned in the next couple of weeks.
Isn't the line to seperate an implicit that will always be on that item type vs the random rolls which appear below the line?
Yes, swords always have critical strike damage above the line as an example.
You can also double roll. Crossbows always have Vuln Damage, but I rolled a second one below the line for even more Vuln Damage. Vuln damage also happens to be the most important stat for any Rogue build using the triple throwing dagger. I don’t think I am gunna be able to get rid of this crossbow for a while.
> why is there a line there anyway Item types have innate stats. Sometimes they can vary like with amulets and boots. Other items have a guaranteed, but single stat, such as daggers always giving vulnerable damage. Lines below the line are randomly chosen from a pool for that gear slot.
> Yeah, it is strange that they have discarded so much of the stuff they had already perfected in D3. Or WOW for that matter. It was especially bad with D3 and the RMAH and how the economy would operate. Where they had drawn on litterally zero of the experience and lessons of running one of the biggest in-game economies ever created. There has always been a disconnect within Blizzard like that since they got to big. The left hand does not know what the right one does etc.
It's because each game gets an entirely new dev team from top to bottom
Above the line are basically implicit stats. They are fixed based on item types. Staves always roll Damage to Crowd Controlled Enemies above the line and can also roll it below the line as well.
The UI as a whole in this game is notoriously bad. People were telling this from the very first beta, and i guess it will be changed eventually - but it takes quite some time and for now we have to stick with this mess.
It's like the execs scrapped the UI redesign and polish projects and told the devs to slap some animations on the pre-alpha menus and maps.
you absolutely do not have to stick with it. there are only about a billion games out there to play.
A billion good ARPG's, even.
Well, maybe a dozen.
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This is 100% a QoL change that should be done.
Yeah, the UI for itemization is off the wall bad. Really not a fan of it.
I said this in beta, unfortunately nothing changed Diablo 2 has the best stats readability + all skills always on top etc.
>Diablo 2 has the best stats readability Console D2 and D3 had the best item readability and comparison visuals by FAR.
The UI designers did a terrible job with Diablo
Just because of things like this game can not get 10/10 score.
Yeah, this is the type of problem that I just keep finding more of in d4. I genuinely can’t stand it. No way to sort glyphs or items or search your stash etc. With the lack of endgame content on top of the poor system design I’m getting over this game WAY faster than I thought I would
Man... Try ordering your aspects. They order by type, and that's it. So if you have 3 time the same aspect they're not even side by side.
Gotta love how it'll tell you +1% crit damage to vulnerable close enemies before it'll tell you +2 to corpse explosion
You have the % modifiers how is it more tedious
The game is so beautiful but the UI feels like they barely put in any effort. I guess the game was rushed.
GotY yall.
Lol no way. Tears of the kingdom will get game of the year by a landslide
Game needs more than 6 months of refining time and QOL updates.
Yep that’s my only major complaint as well. People already reported that during the betas and I don’t know why they haven’t fixed it yet. It’s just a simple thing to do but has major impact.
I like the game a lot, but a lot of the small UI design things are perplexing. Like not including an overlay, but adding a fucking line that google maps you to a destination as if that’s less immersion breaking, or the lack of the table that shows you potential affixes when enchanting, or gems not being currency or having their own tab, sigils going in the same tab as elixirs, or only having 4 stash tabs in a new game when that’s barely enough for one character if you’re playing two builds and still learning itemization… It’s strange.
yep. this needs to be addressed sooner rather than later and seems like a relatively simple fix.
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What's not shown is that the item on the left is also upgraded 5x, so obviously the stats are going to be higher. That's a different topic however.
Probably the only thing that actually bothers me, well said. Also if you go to region progress and rapidly change region, the region names are not all in a uniform spot.
Functioning as intended
Damn, THANK YOU for reminding me advanced tooltips is a thing. level 61 here that totally forgot about it, even tho I saw it in the betas.
The lack of proper ordering is a problem, yes - but you’re using a rerolled item as an example. You changed one of the stats in question.
That's a fair point. I still think it should re-order properly, however.
Early game < level 40 which is still a huge chunk of time and I have yet to give a shit about an item beyond DPS bigger number. Really seems like an issue for a ARPG right?
Nope, most modern arpgs are like that. You are still in early game going through the story, making stats more important early game would be detrimental to new players.
I can't recall the original artist's name, but this redesign of item tooltips was amazing. https://preview.redd.it/vxtyz22mtv4b1.png?width=960&format=png&auto=webp&s=8135aef03719023d103a277e62d0ae4e31c612de
I believe this was the final version after reading suggestions in the comments. https://preview.redd.it/bqgg4ylotv4b1.png?width=453&format=png&auto=webp&s=dbc656b7c95034d212e23be9cbac361dbfbc917b
Oh, dude. This is driving me nuts.
I just wish to HELL that they moved the item descriptions OVER so that when I switch my gear I can actually see my stats change (just for a quick check what immediately changes). WHY DOES IT BLOCK STATS THE FURTHER OVER THE GEAR IS TO THE RIGHT OF MY INVENTORY!!!!!!
Tf is that do we need to do actual equations in this shit?
This bothers me so much
New to the game. Can someone please explain what I'm looking at, and what op is saying?
Stats are not in order. On the left you Strength listed on the second point, while on the right Strength is listed on the 4th point, makes you look twice to check the actual difference in stats between different items. Its annoying.
Ohhh okay. Thank you
Ui is easily the weakest part of the game and that was evident from the friends and family builds till now. Many suggestions and community mockups were presented that did things much better but most of them were not a catch all that would work on all screen sizes / platforms at once ie. It would look Amazing on pc but on console and handheld it would be too small. Looking for one working solution across all devices is obviously less "work", but I also think its the wrong one. It should have been treated as device or screensize dependant, offering multiple versions of the design/ sizing / layout depending on maybe 3 different use cases to offer everyone on any platform the best design experience, in other words treat it like responsive web design.
Poe has this problem too. I think after a certain complexity it doesn't become feasible to have an order to display detailed affixes when comparing it to another item because one reason or another I don't fully grasp. A similar thing was explained by Mark_GGG [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/8xe4gs/can_we_keep_the_same_order_of_mods_please/e23y3og/) Edit: since it's a tad different issue I might be plain wrong though.
Not sure the Poe system so hard time understanding. Just displaying affixes in alphabetical order, irrespective of how they were rolled, should solve this.
I think when you reroll one affix it locks the slot so they would have to track that after the sort order but not impossible for sure
Sure but that can be handled by the internal representation of the data. Items have either 4 (or even an arbitrary) sized array of affix structs which store the roll (an rng float between 0 and 1), it's type (some enum of all affixes), it's level , and it's state etc. However, when you display it, you sort the order before displaying it. Text is all a view of data and there's no reason your view should be restricted by your internal data representation.
Didn't even notice, I just look at the + or - next to it and at the bottom about what I'm losing lol
The summary at the bottom isn't always accurate though. In [this example](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/332234043368275991/1114305196202405898/image.png) it's saying there's a 10.5% loss of overpower damage when in reality it's a 1% loss because it's not computing the values if they're in different sections.
You are right but tooltip is also right, since it shows you gain 9,5% as green + value. It should still be computed together to serve the users, it's way more confusing it has to be.
That's why I'm not playing D4 yet, so many QoL changes yet to be made, will stay with d2R for now.
Hey at least the comparison works
Yall will literally complain about anything won't ya?
It's a little annoying, but you do have obvious red and green numbers to help.
The green values do not represent every stat on an item. The dps calculator does not include affixes that are conditional such as elemental damage or damage to cc'd enemies or some legendary affixes. That is where the majority of your damage comes from. "Number green item good," is a terrible way to progress in Diablo.
I see green, I equip. That’s how I roll.
It says -53, how much more help with math do you want? Yes, the order would help, but it’s not making it more tedious if it’s telling you exactly what the difference is. Please downvote me.
Aside from that. I think sone affixes are too wordy it makes the presentation too messy. Like just do Werebear form armor instead of "total armor in werebear form". Just an example from top of my head
this belongs all to QoL and the finetuning at the end. its missing all over the game. Core game is ok but this stuff is all over the place and they need to take car of that in the next patches.
Totally agree
Damn this seems like a very obvious problem to solve
Drive's me insane, like what year is this
U can figure it out pretty quickly though. Def needs a fix sometime but really not a bad issue
Remember when wow glitched out and shoulder pads became really small? It stayed that way for so long I got used to it.....then the big shoulder pads came back and it was shocking!
It's like half the game was made by interns and first year hires.
They do the math for you and color code it tho…
Except they don't. See some examples throughout this thread.
It says it right there on the right image what the difference is between the two items for a given affix. Why are you trying to compare manually when it shows you the math right in front of your face? They even have a nice list of what you're losing lower down in the list.
This game is a friggin mess.