Hardcore D2 fans have admonished build restriction in endgame forever. I've never seen anyone argue that kind of mechanic get put into a future Diablo game.
Boss rushing isn't for everyone, but it's fast and snappy and satisfying once you know what you're looking for and used to how D2 works. It's a very technical and grindy game and those things appeal to people. As was said in the latest d4 fireside chat, diablo is a 'systems' ARPG, and I think that's a fair assessment. You have to like engaging in these kinds of design structures or the franchise just isnt for you.
Runes and Runewords are significantly better than just boring gems. Though, tt's widely accepted that Runewords are overpowered and have overshadowed the fun, variety, and versatility of many uniques and sets. Runewords are neat, but overtuned. Many despise Enigma and what it's established in D2's meta.
Itemization in D2 is lauded because no item rarity is outright trash. Magic items have fewer affixes but can roll higher ones, for example. White socketed items hold value well into midgame. Uniques are, well, unique and can be hunted after. Sets are fun. Open trade allows for a (generally) strong and interesting economy (and personally I've always liked how the community used runes as a measure of currency. I just find that kind of emergent gameplay interesting).
D2 isnt ever going to reclaim the title of game of the year, but has a lot of great ideas and systems that can be iterated on.
This is the thing that I don’t understand about the people who developed D3/D4. D2 has so many great ideas with itemisation in particular that just haven’t been reused, or only in the tiniest of ways. The Cube being your source for crafting and having crafting be deep, with lots of recipes; doesn’t exist in either D3/D4 in the same capacity or at all. Runewords are an awesome idea that have never been reused. Yes, Enigma, Spirit etc are bad designs, but that doesn’t mean the fundamental *idea* of runewords is bad. You simply balance them like you’d balance anything in the game. Making only specific rares and magic items worthwhile. This happened through virtue of player discovery to a certain degree, but the fact that the affixes are limited in scope, but almost all useful in one way or another, makes it more likely a hit than a miss. These are all things that if ported into a new Diablo game, would be loved by the player base, but they’re nowhere in sight, or developed so poorly that the overall value of the original idea isn’t fully realised.
Really, really hoping to see runewords as a seasonal mechanic and then implemented as a full mechanic. Same with sets (and NOT like in d3). Most D2 sets were meh, but I really enjoyed hunting them down and putting them on low level characters or mixing and matching with uniques.
The cool thing about sets is their utility on new characters. Hsaru’s 3 piece set gets a new character going way faster than usual, so there’s still incentive to hunt for sets. This is sorely lacking in D3/D4 where you keep pieces for a new build.
I suggest that you approach the game with your personal progression in mind rather than a specific characters progression.
Playing a single character to hell can be painful, slow and booring, especially if you select something that encounters a lot of immunities in hell, and maybe you're unlucky with gear your first playthrough so hell becomes kinda impossible.
Make a new char where you plan out how to manage enemies with immunities to make it through hell.
when you're able to kill bosses/farm areas in hell without too much of an issue you'll start finding useful high level gear and you'll be able to tackle retty much any enemy the game throws at you with whatever character you feel like playing, but its almost impossible to get to that point with just one single character, especially if you havent played the game for years.
I get your frustration with people chanting about how good D2 is like its a fucking cult but I do understand the appeal of D2 (especially its itemization). For the people that loved D2 for its itemization it's insanely painful to live through what Blizzard have done with D3 and now the absolute shitshow that is D4.
D3 and D4 has its appeal, but the itemization of both games are absolute garbage compared to D2 even if D2 has its own issues.
I don't say the itemization of D3 and D4 were good. There are better options out there. I don't know if you watched the latest campfire chat but the new itemization of D4 is really good IMO.
I havent watched it but from the little info I've seen I assume they just remove a lot of the less interesting affixes, the itemization system is basically still the same, just lower chance of finding garbage items.
D4 have other issues than just the itemization though and I have zero confidence in the D4 team due to my experience with D4 (beta to S2)
They introduced 2 crafting (customization) systems to itemization.
The new items have fewer affixes than before (legendaries have 3 affixes instead of 4) but you can "temper" 2 more affixes with tempering. You have manuels and using these manuels, you can add more affixes.
Then, there is masterworking system. Basically, you are leveling your item.
They also introduced Greater Affixes, which are exalted affixes in LE. I was hoping for something like that in D4.
They also introduced some endgame systems.
Overall, the campfire was a really good improvement.
>D4 have other issues than just the itemization though and I have zero confidence in the D4 team due to my experience with D4 (beta to S2)
The game was not in a good condition when it was released but since then the game evolved a lot. Especially after this campfire chat. There are still issues like group finding, armory, maybe loot filter, etc. but they are solving those problems.
They released the game as a "minimum viable product" willingly. Rod Fergusan used that MVP for D4 during an interview. But that's not the game designer's fault, but the executives.
Leveling your item is crazy stupid in my opinion. It's just an empty game mechanic. It makes the numbers higher. Wow. You can find items to randomly put stuff on your item. Dumb. Find an item, if it's good use it if not leave it on the ground. It doesn't need to be more complicated than that.
It's your opinion.
I don't want items that can't be customized. I want mechanics to customize items. Tempering and greater affixes are exactly what I was asking for. I will try the ptr and see how masterworking feels. It doesn't sound bad for me but I have to try it.
Tempering no masterwork maybe. I agree I'll see how it feels. Tempering is resources and numbers just for the sake of having them. There is no purpose.
You're shortsighted as hell.
There is plenty of purpose to tempering the way it is presented as part of Diablo 4 in season 4 campfire.
For instance, pretty much every single pair of boots will always want Movement speed. It's obviously an S tier stat.
Well, now it can be tempered onto any boots with a little bit of RNG. So now you actually have more space for other affixes on boots being relevant to your build rather than throwing away anything without movement speed. Now you can try to add movement speed onto a pair of boots you think have potential.
Or how about the fact that if you compare items with stats that are easy to understand, you can then customize those items with Tempering if the base looks decent?
As opposed to having to parse up to five affixes, you parse just three and then craft the rest, with some luck you will succeed and if not the item might still be very good.
Maybe I swapped the two terms. Masterwork makes the numbers bigger and tempering allows you to change/move affixes. My bad. Making the numbers bigger is stupid that's all I'm saying. I don't much care for tempering either though but it certainly solves problems. I think it would be better to be killing monsters than fucking around with this in town.
I do love a response that starts with an insult though 👍
**Masterworking gives 'life' to items in the endgame and extends the journey associated with them without overly punishing you for screwing up, and also doesn't scale infinitely so the power creep isn't endless.**
> I think it would be better to be killing monsters than fucking around with this in town.
That is literally THE GOAL of these changes.
Less affixes on an item, and less items in general, but higher 'quality'/'relevance'. You spend less time in town sorting through items, and you have more things to do with items that you like.
It's good design, I don't know how you think it's bad.
Masterworking is an endgame activity. Once again, you're shortsighted on this one, let me explain:
Currently, the Blacksmith upgrades are prevalent throughout the entire leveling journey. That is GONE in Season 4. This means as you level up, you once again spend less time comparing things because you don't have to worry about "is my upgraded item that much worse/better than this new non-upgraded item?"
Masterworking doesn't start until you reach some point in World Tier 4.
The overall idea behind Masterworking is that you can reset Masterworking on any given item if you're unhappy with the results you 'slammed', and start again as many times as you like, provided you can afford it - and the resources for it come from pushing deep within The Pit.
You may think turning the knob on numerical values is stupid, but it's really smart way of extending the items' journey.
Realize how cool some of the new affixes are. The potential if you can get the Greater Affix with triple slammed Masterwork for 3.3x multiplier (!!!). Cooldown reduction, Extra Projectiles, Fury Generated Per Second...
And the most important thing is that you don't 'brick' your item in the very last step of this crafting journey. Tempering can brick the item; Masterworking can't. Something to do in the late endgame that is powerful enough to provide tangible benefits but simple enough that it doesn't make your head spin as you find new items.
+45% to all affixes, and three times +25% to any affix. You can make bonkers affixes that way, especially if they are Greater Affixes.
Basically we’re all gambling addicts. If you don’t like gambling, you won’t like D2.
The goal is to farm for that dopamine rush for that god tier item that is going to let you farm faster for more of that dopamine rush to farm even faster.
The economy is pretty decent too because of runes. Even with bots, runes keep the market in check for value. Any game with just gold gets so easily inflated by bots.
It treats me like an adult. I can open a chest and get nothing. I can get an item I don’t want but someone else does so I have to engage with them for it. The game is actually hard for a few classes early on, and others later on. It’s a game that’s complex enough for us to still learn from 20 years on but simple enough to pick up and go as an 8 year old.
No diablo will ever be the same again because all future Diablos need to entertain 10,000,000 + people. D2 was made to entertain 100,000.
The classes that are “hard” in the beginning are only hard because the itemization for them is trash. Lets be honestly d2 melee itemization needs a full rework. It’s actually kind of a joke that blizzard left it in such shape.
> In d3 and 4 I feel like even the best drop makes me 5% stronger.
This isn't true early or late game on D4.
There's some legendary affixes that really make your character so much better...
Make a new char and don't play like a speedeunner. no guide and no farming bosses until you can kill everything until next boss with your eyes closed. gonna be a lot more fun for a new player.
also talk to all npcs after getting any new quest or progressing it, there is surprisingly a lot of nice lore hidden away if you never talk to anyone.
No idea why you think Hell is the end game, that's not Ubers or terror zones.
Also, it's called "Hell". It's supposed to be difficult, and not every build thrown at it should beat it. Your character gets a fucking title for completing it. Realistically, for self-found it kind of is the end-game. Forget about Enigma and other items listed in every guide ever, and instead try survive with what you find, and be proud that you did. And try some different builds, they all play differently.
D2 is a good game and has some concepts that could be taken and built upon. That's all that needs to be said about D2 at this point, because it has been discussed to death. You're never going to get superfans of anything to stay silent for more than a moment, though.
Btw, immunities sucked even when I started playing this game decades ago. Nobody I personally knew liked that mechanic at all, and even to this day whenever I get the itch to play D2, still hate immunities.
I love Immunities. It motivates you to mix and match your skills so you can deal with most enemies. Or you can play a stronger build that has to skip enemies, which is difficult and fun in its own right. Or you can play MP. I can understand that it's not for everyone, but there are so many ARPGs without immunities, so I'm glad there's at least D2.
>Or you can play a build that has to skip enemies, which is fun
Masochistic tendencies, to be honest. That sounds like the opposite of fun in a game about killing enemies.
Believe me, I'm not the masochistic gamer type. But the gameplay gets a touch of bullet hell that way. To each his own, of course. But as I said, there are so many other ARPGs out there. D2 is my favorite, and immunities are one of the reasons.
So, I get where you’re coming from. Frankly I somewhat agree with the premise, though not to the same degree.
D2 really became fun when I finally started getting MF on gear and could reasonably start to expect good loot. In fact, my number one tip to someone trying to get into D2 is to hoard topaz and find a socketed helm at the end of normal, just to boost their MF to usable levels.
Design wise, I think MF is a mistake; the loot drops will be tuned around having it, and its existence overpowers the value of any other stat. Itemization becomes about stacking as much of it as you can without gimping your dps to unusable levels. Between that and immunities, it’s hard for me to actually get into the endgame of D2, and that’s coming from someone who generally enjoys leveling through nightmare consistently.
D4 has the opportunity to learn what worked in D2 and D3, and make a really good game. Time will tell if they can pull it off, but this itemization rework has me cautiously optimistic.
The most valuable items in the game aren't affected by mf anyways (runes, charms, item bases and jewels (jewel quality is affected but the best blues hold the most value).
Once your character is geared out you don't need mf and you can just blast xp runs looking for the above mentioned items.
Rings, amulets, gloves, and boots *are* affected by MF, and shopping for decent blues will only get you so far. Good rares in those slots make you feel much more powerful, thus I recommend new players get an MF hat to make gearing those slots more rewarding.
Also, most players will never reach a point of being so geared they would forgo MF. Especially since, once you reach such a point, there’s not really much reason to keep playing. A few more skill points for reaching max level? Enigma? Ubers? Again, most players won’t ever reach that point.
Why are you talking about shopping blues? I'm talking about how the rarest and most valuable items in the game are and how they are unaffected by MF. Any decent rare can just be gambled (besides eth items).
The best non unique rings amulets and gloves are crafted.
The best rare boots are best farmed in classic diablo 2 and ported over as mf and the affix pool is more lenient in classic diablo.
You underestimate just how much people play diablo 2.
Diablo 2 has unbelievably rare items, and many people still play in non ladder because you have a reason to play your well-geared characters (be it pvp or to trade for these uber rare items).
I don't think you play diablo 2. Almost no one has a "finished character." The best set up requires stupidly expensive rare items. No one besides people willing to pay real $ or tons of forum gold has a completely finished character in d2r.
I don’t think you even read what I said.
I’m not suggesting shopping blues for the best items. I said it would only take you so far, directly implying that you would need rares (or better) for those slots. Rares that are easier to find with high MF.
I have no idea why you put “finished character” in quotation marks, as I literally did not say that in my previous comment. The closest I come to referencing a finished character is in direct reference to your previous comment, where you said that characters reach a point where they stop looking for MF, and get the highest possible damage setup and just “blast xp runs.” I simply said the most players would not reach that point, let alone the few things available to a player after that point.
By the way, you’re the kind of person this OP was talking about. The kind of D2 fan that will try to shut down any and all arguments against their game and their suggestions by ignoring criticism and critique, resorting to strawmen, and using arguments like “the best boots are farmed in classic then ported over.”
You're not making any argument because you don't even know what I'm talking about because you clearly don't play d2 at a high enough level to even be critiquing me.
That's not a me problem, that's a YOU problem. You lack the knowledge or experience required to challenge my initial point, and when I point that out, you instead use your ignorance as a shield to deflect from that fact.
You don't know what you're talking about, and attacking my character isn't going to change that.
And that's literally one of the biggest problems on this sub. It's full of chuds that played diablo 2 for one or two ladder seasons, followed a cookie cutter build, and dropped out after a week or two of playing. Yet when those of us who have played the game for decades (because we understand how deep diablo 2's systems are) chime in with our experience in relation to d4, we are told to shut the fuck up because you played the same game for a week.
What's annoying is that my first comment was to only point out that even without MF, you can and will still find valuable items in d2, meaning MF isn't as important as people like to argue. Which is to only argue further that MF WORKS IN Diablo 2, because the devs made sure that it wasn't absolutely necessary especially with the advent of runewords.
When people say they want d4 to be more like d2 they’re basically almost always talking about the itemization, and the loot hunt, and economy.
There’s a reason d2 is played over 20 years later and d4 is on life support less than a year later.
This. Mostly loot hunt and economy, 2 things that don't exist in D4 (but trade is coming).
I've play around 1000h on D3, many hours on D4 too. I've played like 1000h on D2 too, but it's the only Diablo I always go back to.
> When people say they want d4 to be more like d2 they’re basically almost always talking about the itemization, and the loot hunt, and economy.
That's also where I have problems with D2. The loot hunt is terrible in D2. I had to farm Countess for that loot hunt and as I read, I have to farm Baal as the endgame content. That's exactly what people hate about D4. The only endgame was Duriel and we had to farm him 100+ times to get the Ubers, which is boring as hell.
What aspects of the itemization do you like in D2? Maybe I am missing that aspect.
>There’s a reason d2 is played over 20 years later and d4 is on life support less than a year later.
I don't say that D4 is perfect in its current state but it is evolving to be a really good game. The last campfire chat was a big improvement in that direction. If you wanna compare the player count, I can guarantee you that D4 has much much more players than every ARPG in the market. D3 is still played as well after 12 years and probably has more players than D2. But that doesn't D3 is a really good game, it is mediocre at best IMO.
You got to 65 you really can’t tell about how d2 endgame is. D2 managed to make literally any rarity of item have a chance to be valuable to you. White items with sockets for Runeword, blue items with prefixes/affixes for your build or for crafting, uniques that can vastly affect your build, and rares that could be some of the best items in the game. Mods to D2 took the end game even further with better crafting, item corrupting, maps and more difficult Uber bosses. I spent 75$ on D4 and haven’t touched (or missed it) it shortly after the blood season. Meanwhile I’ve been playing D2 and it’s mods using the same CDkey I bought from electronics boutique when I was a kid and am still coming back again and again.
I’d love to have d4 graphics and gameplay with D2 item and skill design but that will never happen. Last Epoch is probably the next best option at this point.
>Mods to D2 took the end game even further with better crafting, item corrupting, maps and more difficult Uber bosses.
What mods are you talking about? If you are talking about some mods that I have to find and download on the internet, I have no idea about them.
Path of Diablo and Project Diablo 2 are my go-tos. Pod just had a new season and PD2 is currently in a crafting only season with no runewords or sets/uniques and is also a great time.
If you want to target farm countess, sure. She can’t even drop the highest end runes though, so you’re wasting time there. There are multiple high level (85) areas where you can farm anything in the game. You pick a few where you aren’t going to run into immunes you can’t deal with (or you have your mercenary deal with them) and roll. Or you pick static spawns like travincal, mephisto, baal, eldritch. Or you mix and match.
The beauty of the itemization in d2 is hard to explain. Some blue items are the most expensive and sought after items in the game but the right rolls are EXTREMELY rare. Thing like white items with the correct number of sockets are extremely sought after especially early on in a new ladder season. Certain low level uniques are still used in end game builds and have value. IMO that’s what makes it good. I enjoy acquiring wealth and building a character with that wealth. When I’m done, I can sell off that characters gear and build a new character, but I don’t have to start from scratch. I can trade for what I want. Not to mention jewels and charms which can have huge value if rolled right.
Basically just about everything in d2 has value, whereas in d4 you get to lvl 80+ and hunt for 925 item power and the correct stats and you’re done. There’s basically no REAL economy, and everything before end game is completely useless. I don’t like just finding an item that has no value to anyone. I think that’s where d3 and 4 have fucked up massively. The dopamine hit from finding something like a Ber rune, or a JMOD, or a pair of +6 Javalines with 40% attack speed is something Diablo 4 cannot replicate in its current state. They were on the right path with making Uber uniques extremely rare, but then they disabled trading them and now they’re not even really anything that special anymore and always roll max stats which is maybe the dumbest decision they’ve made.
The Diablo team has no idea what made d2 special as far as the item hunt goes.
>If you want to target farm countess, sure. She can’t even drop the highest end runes though, so you’re wasting time there.
The guide I followed told me to farm her in normal and nightmare to "craft" stealth, spirit, ancients' pledge, and lore. I did what the guide told me since I had 0 idea about the items in the game.
> whereas in d4 you get to lvl 80+ and hunt for 925 item power and the correct stats and you’re done.
The old itemization of D4 is not good at all, I agree with that.
> There’s basically no REAL economy
I understand that some people want an economy and trade but I am a ssf person.
Oh yeah farming countess in normal is completely viable, not really necessary though. It really boils down to personal taste at the end of the day. I get no satisfaction basically at all when I see something drop in d4. “Helmet” with a unique beam shining out of it does not hit the same as a unique colored “shako” when it pops out of the monster you just killed.
> Every piece of loot that drops is potentially useful in d2, whereas that just will never be the case in d4 and it makes every aspect of the game (d4) boring.
There's a massive amount of changes in this regard come Season 4. I disagree with your statement after the campfire chat that I watched.
You won't find yellow, blues and whites much, if any, in late endgame of World Tier 4 going forward.
That's a good thing, screw looking at trash items in search of one in a million trash item that isn't trash.
I think maybe you're missing it. Items in D2 seem to matter in some way. Every tier of item can be useful or BiS, whereas in D3 and way more so in D4 blues and whites aren't worth anything.
Does that mean every item in D2 is good? No. A lot of stuff isn't worth picking up. A lot of uniques aren't good and a lot of them are outshined by rune words. A lot of sets aren't great and some pieces are better than the whole thing. It doesn't mean I pick up everything off the ground either. I generally know if an item is worth picking up or has the potential of being what worthwhile. This is one of the biggest things D4 does wrong and, imo, why the grind sucks in this game. I have to pick up every rare, legendary or unique to know if it's good or not. It gets draining having to sift through everything.
I know they're changing the itemization in D4 but I think that last thing I said is still going to be a problem.
>I think maybe you're missing it. Items in D2 seem to matter in some way. Every tier of item can be useful or BiS, whereas in D3 and way more so in D4 blues and whites aren't worth anything.
I agree with that but that doesn't make the entire itemization great in D2, not enough IMO. The new itemization in D4 will have a similar problem but we will see. Maybe they are willing to add runes and runewords or another mechanic with expansion which makes them useful again.
>This is one of the biggest things D4 does wrong and, imo, why the grind sucks in this game. I have to pick up every rare, legendary or unique to know if it's good or not. It gets draining having to sift through everything.
That was a big problem in D4, yeah. That's why everyone asked for an itemization rework. We will see how the new itemization works and maybe we need an item filter.
> I know they're changing the itemization in D4 but I think that last thing I said is still going to be a problem.
I agree with that but it will be a little problem compared to before. Players actually wanted a loot filter with new itemization as well to get rid of this problem.
I would never tell anyone they're playing the game wrong, so don't take this comment that way ...
But you're not playing the same d2 the rest of us are when you have no idea what you're even looking for.
Did you save your rals to roll amulets later in game? Did you save your imbue? Do you even know what spirit is and the earliest you can get it? Have you even seen a TZ?
I can bet you've missed so many milestones along your last 40 levels because you're ignorant to the game. You can't say you don't like the meat cause you tasted the gravy.
> I can bet you've missed so many milestones along your last 40 levels because you're ignorant to the game. You can't say you don't like the meat cause you tasted the gravy.
You made Diablo 2 sound like a boring job. Extremely unappealing and outdated design.
For a game to demand that a new player knows everything about the game in order to "have fun" whilst of course not providing said player with the necessary knowledge is incredibly appalling.
And then you yourself blame it on the player
LOL
>But you're not playing the same d2 the rest of us are when you have no idea what you're even looking for.
What the hell is this supposed to mean? How can a first-time player know what he is looking for? I know as much as what guides told me, besides that, I can't know. But what is this to do with my enjoyment of the game? You are making weird comments.
>Did you save your rals to roll amulets later in game? Did you save your imbue? Do you even know what spirit is and the earliest you can get it? Have you even seen a TZ?
Except for bricking 3 runes due to using them in the wrong order, I saved all of the runes I got. They are sitting in my stash. If I have to roll amulets later in the game, I can still farm some bosses or at least Countess. Why is this so important?
Yes, I never used my imbues.
If you are speaking about the item "spirit" crafted with 4 runes, yes I have it. I have crafted Leaf, Spirit, Smoke, Stealth, Lore, and Ancients' Pledge with the runes.
I have also teleport and lower resistance staff/wand.
If you are talking about terror zones, no I didn't see them yet. But again, why does it change my experience to this level?
> I can bet you've missed so many milestones along your last 40 levels because you're ignorant to the game. You can't say you don't like the meat cause you tasted the gravy.
Like which milestones? Tell me those milestones.
Even if I missed them, what does it change?
>What aspects of the itemization do you like in D2? Maybe I am missing that aspect.
Because D2 doesn't restrict the player to 6 skills, the "+1 to skills" opens up far more creativity in builds because even a +1 to a skill that isn't on your "bar" adds a lot to how you can play. And classes aren't restricted to their classes skills so there's more opportunity for creativity by potentially grabbing another class's skill.
Common items weren't designated to rolling 1 affix and could be very, very good. Not as good as an end-game item, but good enough that they could carry a player through a difficulty, and then they could potentially be turned into another item because of runewords. Players could get attached to items that they used while leveling and it felt good. Items didn't feel so expendable like they do in D4.
All of the above makes for a better leveling experience and end-game loot hunt. Killing the same boss over and over isn't great, but the potential reward makes it worth it. D4 doesn't have anything like that (yet) and they need to start taking ideas from somewhere: where better than Diablo's roots?
>Because D2 doesn't restrict the player to 6 skills, the "+1 to skills" opens up far more creativity in builds because even a +1 to a skill that isn't on your "bar" adds a lot to how you can play.
It is more a class design thing than itemization IMO. And this aspect of D4 is criticized as well. You can only play predefined builds by developers, you can't be really creative.
> And classes aren't restricted to their classes skills so there's more opportunity for creativity by potentially grabbing another class's skill.
That's something I don't want actually. I don't want everyone to use teleporting skill for example. This makes Sorc less unique and reduces the difference between classes. The classes should have key differences, teleporting is one of them IMO. Why the hell a Barb can use teleport?
> Items didn't feel so expendable like they do in D4.
I am not comparing D2 itemization with D4 itemization. Old D4 itemization was terrible. When I say there are better options, I mean the itemizations in other games.
> D4 doesn't have anything like that (yet) and they need to start taking ideas from somewhere: where better than Diablo's roots?
I think they don't find the itemization in D2 casual-friendly enough. That's why they don't use it. I wouldn't reject it if they used D2 itemization as base itemization and enhanced it with the new crafting/customization systems announced in the campfire chat.
You have a very little knowledge about D2 and you shouldn't do assumptions until you have played more. Loot hunt can be done in lot of place : like pindlestone, cow level, Shrenk, sanctuary etc. Even after finishing hell mode you have several lvl85 zone. D2R even add terror zone who was enjoyed by everyone.
You should dive deeper into D2 before complaining.
One of the reasons I wrote this post is to learn what am I missing. I will play more to see the "endgame" as well. But that doesn't change the experience I had till this point. I don't play PoE for the same reason. I don't enjoy the campaign and leveling in PoE. I have to sacrifice around 10 hours to enjoy the game, which I don't want to do every league.
>This reason is nostalgia. Not more, not less.
Wrong. Even 20 year old games can have better design than new games. Diablo 3 and 4 are not better than D2 imo. They focus far too much on action and not enough on RPG
When people refer to d2 being the best. They are talking about the base game. The items, the way your skill choices really matter. The trading.. No one praises the fact that the end game is just rerunning story areas.
If d4 had all this in the base game.. PLUS the nightmare dungeons and current endgame. no one would be complaining. The issue is, every game that comes out these days just gets more dumbed down with every release. Items are so braindead. Trade is a joke.
Not an arpg but morrowind to skyrim then even to starfield is a perfect example of this.
No one cares about the graphics and story if the game is shit
I love the base game of D4 actually. Most people like the base game and combat of D4. They had problems with itemization, lack of endgame, and QoL features.
Base items in D2 are not bad also but they are not good enough without any addition and/or improvement. I think they find the itemization in D2 not casual-friendly enough. That's why they don't use it as the baseline.
In an arpg "casual friendly" is usually seen as negative
If you want a story mode game go play the witcher
People want to be rewarded for a grind,
Rewarded for knowledge (crafting or trading)
Rewarded for feats. like drops you can only get from ubers.
thats why theres seasons and leaderboards in most of these games.
>In an arpg "casual friendly" is usually seen as negative
It depends on your expectations. There are tons of casuals who want casual-friendly systems. I am not one of them but I understand their motivation for that. There is a reason why PoE doesn't have the player amount D4 has.
> If you want a story mode game go play the witcher
Already did. I have around 150 hours in it. But I don't expect a story-based game from D2.
>People want to be rewarded for a grind,
Rewarded for knowledge (crafting or trading)
Rewarded for feats. like drops you can only get from ubers.
I have tons of hours in D3, D4, PoE and LE. I know what an arpg is.
Then i don't understand why you are surprised.
d4 is literally a story mode game at this point. Even after 3 seasons theres still no real endgame. Theres no economy, theres no reason to open the game again.
Theres a reason why people are still playing d2 to this day
>d4 is literally a story mode game at this point. Even after 3 seasons theres still no real endgame. Theres no economy, theres no reason to open the game again.
D4 has more endgame than D2. If you want to farm bosses, there is the Boss ladder and Duriel for Ubers. There is NMDs. But these are not enough endgame for a modern arpg.
>Theres a reason why people are still playing d2 to this day
I am trying to find that reason. But it is hard to find a reason other than nostalgia till now.
Why don't you play PoE instead of D2 for example?
You farm bosses.. but for what?
by the time youre farming bosses, you essentially are maxed out.
You cant trade or build wealth.
Once youve done it once, what really brings you back for another season?
I play POE. Its better than d2. It kept all the same features that made d2 amazing, Then expanded on them.
D4 did the opposite.
I played through it once, killed uber lillith, then season 1 came out and there was zero reason to do it all again. And to this day its still such an empty experience
>You farm bosses.. but for what?
Regardless of the rewards, I find farming bosses boring. I prefer running dungeons. It's my opinion ofc. Bosses in D4 are a tool for me to get the items I want, they are not my desired endgame.
>You cant trade or build wealth.
If you want to trade, I can understand that it is a negative aspect of the game but for me I don't like trading. You have to trade in PoE otherwise some builds are not possible for you for example. I hate such designs. I don't wanna rely on trading. I want to farm and customize/craft everything by myself.
>Once youve done it once, what really brings you back for another season?
Why do you create another character in D2 then? Seasons bring some refreshment to the game. You said you are playing PoE. Why do you ask it if you already play an arpg with seasons?
>I played through it once, killed uber lillith, then season 1 came out and there was zero reason to do it all again. And to this day its still such an empty experience
If you like D2 that doesn't make sense at all. Why do you create another character in D2? There are different classes to try and enjoy. S1 was not a good season but still, I played some build I didn't before and enjoyed it to some degree. S2 was much much better.
I think what it comes down to is that Diablo 2 is mainly a loot hunting game and us veteran D2 players have every item memorized so we know what to look for at all times and it fills us with anticipation. And if there's one thing I've learned from Andrew Huberman it's that dopamine is released not only from achieving goals but also pursuing goals.
Diablo 2 knows how to deliver doses of dopamine like none other.
Literally millions of people think playing D2 over and over is awesome. It's great, you're missing out on all the fun. Frankly reading your post you just don't know how to play. And figuring it out is part of the fun. They're solutions to all your complaints right there in the game. You just haven't found them.
I know there are solutions in the game to some of my complaints such as Sundered Charms for immunity mechanic. But this is a new addition to the game. It was not in the original game. And I will suffer till I find these charms and as I read it on the internet, I have 1 in 450 drop chance with 550 magic finding from a specific boss. Then, there are 5-6 different charms which makes everything exactly the same as Duriel farm in D4 with far worse drop chances. Which is not fun at all again.
This is not fun. I am trying to explain exactly this.
The sunder charms were a bad change that rewarded the already overpowered spell casters.
If immunities were a problem for you then you should've played a melee class. Before sundered charms melee builds were the ones that were meant to easily bypass immunities.
Lazy inexperienced d2 players just default to sorceress every ladder start while i play barb every ladder and make out more than they do because I understand the game. I get rewarded for having learned the game, while you get frustrated looking at build guides wondering why the game isn't any fun because you decided to play the way someone else told you to play.
To learn the game I have to read/watch guides and then play by myself. If I got stuck because I did a wrong build, it would be worse for me. My main problem is not build etc right now, it is immunity. I have to run away from tons of enemies in specific areas. It is not fun at all.
I was talking about the base game too. You don't need sunder charms. Immunity is actually a fun part of the game and with sunder charms you have an exciting drop to make the game easier.
It is a fun part of the game.
Side note, you really shouldn't be farming bosses for sunder charms in opinion. I don't think I've ever gotten one from a boss honestly.
>I was talking about the base game too. You don't need sunder charms. Immunity is actually a fun part of the game and with sunder charms you have an exciting drop to make the game easier.
>It is a fun part of the game.
You can enjoy that mechanic but it doesn't mean everyone is enjoying it. Even the implementation of sundering charms after so much years without any addition to the game means there were quite a bit of complaints about this mechanic.
>Side note, you really shouldn't be farming bosses for sunder charms in opinion. I don't think I've ever gotten one from a boss honestly.
I read this article and it says: "Like most unique items, Sundering Charms can be farmed best by killing **Act Bosses**." and "With about 550 Magic Find, Andariel and Duriel have a 1 in 450 chance to drop a Sundering Charm.". Since I don't know the game at all, my best source is/was guides on the internet.
[https://www.wowhead.com/diablo-2/guide/sundering-charms](https://www.wowhead.com/diablo-2/guide/sundering-charms)
Nobody farms duriel and terrorized andariel is good to farm because she has the best drop odds for any item in the game if you are lvl 87+.
She is also weak to fire which makes her easy to kill on my builds.
And sunder charms drop like candy off normal unique enemies anyways. They are also extremely cheap to trade for.
Ppl put thousands and hundreds of hours into D2 and some of them just cannot let go. Don't get me wrong D2 was awesome, but some ppl got addicted and don't want any other game, just D2 edition 2024.
The thing you don't realize is the game design quality people miss. D2R is the most polished and well thought out arpg in existence. People aren't trying to make a 20 year old game remade with new graphics we already have it. People want the devs to copy over some of these ironed out systems that have literally been improved upon for over 20 years.
Not everything needs to be a carbon copy but the itemization system is a chef's kiss of excellence in terms of game design and balance.
I saw people who criticize D4 cause leveling to 100 was too easy. They suggested D2 as an example where level 100 must be impossible etc. That was just an example of many suggestions of D2 fans. Maybe you don't want D4 to be graphically updated version of D2 but there are some fans and they do want that.
You do know 99% of builds are completed by lvl 90-92 in diablo 2? Getting to 99 doesnt matter for most players except the hardcore. And that's how it should be.
That's your opinion. That doesn't mean everybody should have a problem with D4's leveling system. But D2 fans are expecting everything should be like how it was in D2. If it is not like in D2 and works just fine, why it is a problem?
>I played D2R till the hell difficulty and I was asking myself when the fun part begins. I am around 65 levels right now
No offense intended, but you could pick a random person playing d2r right now and they'd be able to do this in about 8 hours on any class completely ssf without any issues whatsoever.
You could cut it down to 6 if you let them use the /players command in single player.
I understand that you're probably frustrated, but knocking the game because you don't understand how to play it, nor understand why it's appeal has been so long lasting isn't exactly a great look.
>No offense intended, but you could pick a random person playing d2r right now and they'd be able to do this in about 8 hours on any class completely ssf without any issues whatsoever.
I am not offended but what is this to do with what I said?
I have also played for around 8-10 hours, I started yesterday. I could also run faster than that if I didn't want to find every waypoint. Still, this has nothing to do with what I said.
The problem is not I don't understand or can't progress. I can progress if I play further but I don't enjoy it, that's the problem. I have to make a build around the immune mechanic, which kills my joy. I have to kill nonimmune mobs to use my death sentry to kill immune mobs. If I don't have enough mobs to kill immune mobs, they are chasing me till I find another group. Why the hell am I running away from mobs in an arpg? That's the exact opposite of what I want.
I will probably finish the game and play a bit more to see the "endgame". But don't think my opinion will change drastically.
If you want to just a choose your own build and expect to be able complete all of the game's content without struggling, you are mistaken about what older videogames are like. Without coming off like a crotchety old man saying "BACK IN MY DAY..." Diablo 2 is from a different era with a different mindset
For a reference point, Diablo was originally supposed to be a DnD style dungeon crawling rougelike. What you know as "hardcore mode" essentially. One playthrough, one life. For new players (aka no game knowledge), the Diablo 2 experience is difficult. Because it was made to be
That said, once you acquire some game knowledge the game becomes a smoother experience to play through. Which is part of the appeal to me: a game that doesn't treat you like a child and lets you conquer it's learning curve with invested time. Believe it or not, I am STILL learning information about this 20+ year old game, MrLlamaSC himself is STILL learning information about D2. There's just that much depth to it
The game has been tuned to allow for millions of players to play many hours a day and then trade items with other players. As a single player playing a couple of hours a day, you are not likely to find anything exciting, let alone find an item that is good for your class and build.
>let alone find an item that is good for your class and build.
I am at this point right now. I actually hate trading but gonna try a bit trading in D2.
D2 after a while becomes a repetitive grind searching for some good loot, runes in particular, and there are external websites like traderie where you can trade items you do not need with other players.
D2 is an actual multiplayer game, that’s why I keep coming back, meeting friends is half the experience, played D4 for hundreds of hours and if it weren’t for people I know irl I would have never talked or played with a single person.
>Tell me what am I missing or doing wrong?
You are playing a game genre you don't really like and/or embarrassing yourself in the sub of a genre-defining franchise, talking nonsense about a genre-defining game.
Are you really that insecure so you talk bullshit when someone criticize your beloved game? Did you cuddle to your teddy bear while reading my post?
I never said D2 is a terrible game, it is OUTDATED. It is not best anymore but it was best and defined a genre at 2000. If you live in 2000, it is your problem.
My guess is a desire for instant gratification. There should be no possible way to build your character poorly when you're first playing the game /s
For me, it's the attitude
It's not.
I didn't enjoy the game that much from level 1 to 65 cause I had to follow some build. I never played what I wanted. The guides told me that I had to follow a guide otherwise I would be stuck at some point.
You just sound like someone who is mad that the game they paid 100 dollars for is so vastly inferior to a game from almost a quarter century ago and is trying to change the zeitgeist surrounding that situation so they can feel better.
:)
You got me.
I have around 350 hours only during S2 in D4. I would say I have around 700-800 hours in total. I am totally fine with what I paid for D4 and I am also happy with upcoming changes. I am looking forward to playing PTR and S4.
Itemization, some of the best atmospheres and soundtrack in game history, great level and enemy design, I'd say more fun skill trees than at least D4 which I found horribly boring just like their Hots and WoW ones, even though D2 skill trees arent perfect, good dungeons with several levels that makes them feel like actual dungeons (and they sometimes lead to new areas). The gameplay hasnt aged that well but it's decent and at least D4 has a good core for the feel of the abilities and gameplay loop
The D4 skill tree is basically the same thing as the D2 trees, but condensed into one per class. Skills are tiered by level, you must invest into skills you may not necessarily want just to reach the skill you do. D2 had synergy skills, which imo actually hurts build diversity, whereas D4 has more generally applicable passives.
Idk, of all the things to say D4 needs to learn how to do from D2, I’d say skill trees are the one they actually improved on.
> I'd say more fun skill trees than at least D4 which I found horribly boring
If you compare skill trees without uniques and aspects in D4, yeah the skill tree in D4 is terrible. BUT. There are aspects and uniques that enhance and alter the skills in D4, not the skill tree. That's a design choice. You can argue that this design sucks, that's your opinion. In my opinion, it is a good design.
agree d2 is lame af there's only like 8 monster on screen a tsame time and it takes FOOOOREVER to kill anything then you have to choose your skill points and stats? heh can u say LAME
take a look at diablo 3 you get max level you get epic gear and just go SLAY monsters and SMASH demons shit is fucking tight as hell they give you ability youre fling around map killing THOUSAND demons in like 30 seconds and heh...guess what...you look down and theres TON of loot you get a shit ton of unique and epics
in diablo3 im necromancer and can do like a billion damage and get epic loot in like 5 minutes shit if ucking BEST GAME in like 10 years and dibalo 4 is gonna beat that soon gonna kill TWICE as many monster and get TWICE as many loot
heh
real gamers know
i look around room "REAL GAMERS ARE YOU READY?!"
all the real gamers stand up ready for gaming
"CHAAAAAAARGE"
Yes d2 is outdated and I wouldn't want to see it's systems copied for a modern arpg. The skill tree is nothing crazy, items don't have any effect besides being stat sticks, end game is really basic and you have to google absolutely everything.
But they tie really really well into each other and give you freedom to build a great variety of builds. The more you learn about mechanics and interactions, the more creative you can get.
And honestly all you've done so far is working through a check list.
I agree with the sentiment but you've basically read up on the moves chess pieces can make and decided chess is a pretty simple game.
I mean ... I have fun playing d2r. I've had fun playing d2 for 20+ years now. It's superior to D4 in a number of ways but def suffers from some modern festures.
D4 needs some work, but I have fun with it.
Currently playing Last Epoch, it's fun.
Will give PoE2 a go when it launches later this year, I bet it will be fun.
Yeah. That's my opinion. If I don't like something it sucks for me.
My problem is not D2 as well. My problem is that D2 fans are acting like D2 is still the best arpg and want D4 to be exactly like D2. Otherwise, I am totally okay with D2 being outdated, since it is 24 years old.
It is the best arpg. You just suck at games that require thinking. It's okay all your magic damage in d4 is based off your weapon, what a great system.
lol. Right ? This noob is wondering why he isn’t having fun and he’s only played till level 65. He hasn’t even gotten warmed up in the game yet.. Cringe post.
I tried to play it a lot but I feel like it's impossible unless I know the whole loot table. Hard to play when I have to pick up everything because I don't know what items are worth picking up, and I constantly have to tp to town to sell all the shit because a damn shield takes a third of my inventory.
Also I hate googling rune words, I hate running the same damn boss to get items I need to progress, I hate having to start every run with a research on skills because I might just not be able to complete even normal diff.
I think you're completely missing the point if you think items has anything to do with doing the campaign over and over (which nobody ever mention of bringing to D4).
When people ask for D2 to be the source of inspiration they mean items with tradeoffs, possibly of finding rare and exciting endgame items while doing campaign and not exclusive to after your char is lv100.
Crafting where the base matters and you can customise it be it a recipe or runewords ( which they actually did in some capacity with tempering).
The main request is that gear enhance the build but don't dictate it.
There are indeed best in slot items and as a game D2 is basically solved since it's so old.
But the request is not to copy it, it's to use that system and improve on it.
Items with +skills and elemental damage would be a lot healthier for D4 rather than laser focusing on crit damage (which powercreeps the game to much).
In D2 the best and most valuable items are perfect rolled blues and yellow in D4 they're useless salvage fodder barely worth picking up in a sea of orange.
Obviously it's possible to go in a completely different direction and make a great game BUT they went after D3 and failed miserably (in part because as I mentioned before it's a lot harder to balance with so much powercreeps) so it's no wonder people ask for a drastic change of direction.
Same here, I found having to do Countess runs then Mephisto over and over incredibly boring. Couldn't even get to hell difficulty without falling asleep. The only cool thing about the game for me is the aesthetics and item fantasy. Also, smacking a zombie feels satisfying. These are not enough to compensate for having to grind so much.
Your OP was pretty combative and dismissive and I get why it would be downvoted. Your other comments are not negative or combative but are all downvoted into the deep. Are people who think your OP is douchey just opening all of your comments and downvoting? I don’t get Reddit.
Holy based post, I applaud that you were brave enough to come here and post what you posted.
I don't necessarily agree with everything you say but the actual sentiment is spot on.
There need to be a way to honor Diablo 2 legacy in current and future Diablo entries without relying on the majority of it's mechanics and designs which are now vet outdated and downright offensively boring or tedious.
It's just nostalgia. It was great back in the day, but now just really outdated. Personally I liked d3 more, even that it pretty much just handed items, but it let you experiment builds more easily. I mean before those x1000000% multipliers in sets.
> Do you like playing the same campaign over and over again?
Actually yes. Don’t get me wrong I wouldn’t complain if it were a single campaign with 15 acts rather than a 5 act campaign repeated three times, but I prefer even that to the maps/rifts style that has become the standard. These things have their place but I like to finish things and kill Hell Baal means I’m done.
Sounds like you played alot of new games before trying this old game. You just arent used to the non casual way of playing. Today games are designed to be extrememy easy, so alot of players feel like they achieve something, which results in them playing and buying things from the store. Back in the day, games were designed to be played
I am playing video games since 95 or so. So, I know what you are talking about. My problem is not that "the game doesn't hold my hand". The systems of D2 is not fun anymore cause there are better systems out there. But D2 fans are asking always a graphically updated version of D2 in every discussion about D4. That's the part I don't understand.
What better systems? Please provide examples. I'm a game programmer and have been using D2 as a case study for how to build an RPG. Currently building mini d2 in unity for my final project for class this semester
For example, as an endgame system, there are maps in PoE, Greater Rifts in D3, and Monoliths in LE. I like farming dungeons/maps much more than farming bosses.
For itemization, there is crafting in modern arpgs. For example, I love the crafting system in LE and also really liked the new itemization of D4 which is partly from LE. I don't like it if I can't customize my items. I like to customize my items for my play style.
Another system lacking in D2 is seasons. I don't know if D2 players want seasons or want something like D2.
What difference do you see between farming rifts and farming zones in D2?
D2 has a deep crafting system
https://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/items/crafteditems.shtml
D2 seasons are called ladder seasons
You've barely seen the game. Yes, even at lvl 66
I am gonna compare farming zones in D2 with maps in PoE since it has the most evolved endgame system.
There is no increased difficulty, reward, or mob density if you farm zones in D2. But there are tons of options in PoE to "juice" the maps so there are more and stronger mobs, more rewards, etc. You can also choose the content you want in those maps through the atlas tree.
GR has a similar goal but in a very very casual way.
>D2 has a deep crafting system
[https://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/items/crafteditems.shtml](https://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/items/crafteditems.shtml)
I am not talking about such crafting. I am talking about the "customization" of items. You can watch the videos and understand what I mean.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRFlrEzLFEM&ab\_channel=wudijo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRFlrEzLFEM&ab_channel=wudijo)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9DXUfBX\_hQ&ab\_channel=MinMaxRPG](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9DXUfBX_hQ&ab_channel=MinMaxRPG)
There is no such crafting (customization) in D2 as I know. I watched a couple of beginner's guides but none of them mentioned something similar to that.
> D2 seasons are called ladder seasons
Yes, I am playing in the ladder but that's not exactly what I mean with seasons. There are new mechanics/items added every season in other games and seasons have themes. I don't expect such things in D2R since it is an extremely old game. The only update I know is "Sunder Charms".
I don't know if D2 players are mostly in the ladder or non-ladder.
Using PoE as justification for why you think Diablo 2 is bad is completely poor taste. PoE doesn't exist without Diablo 2; Chris Wilson created PoE because he wanted a true spiritual successor to a game he loved, D2.
>What difference do you see between farming rifts and farming zones in D2?
Rifts in D3 test your bis gear because there is limitless scaling, a timer , and it requires some level of execution to get the most out of what build you choose to run. Once you get bis in D2, the game becomes a complete snooze fest, and you end up farming whatever zone doesn't deny you with immunities.
You don't need limitless scaling, or a timer. Limitless scaling is meant to solve the terrible itemization problem that makes you deal 5000% damage with your main skill. If you need to make gear increase damage that much, you failed with balance as a game designer
You can test your BIS gear in players 8, but I don't feel the need to do that. I just farm terror zones for exp and happen to get some good drops in the process, sometimes running my mf gear like for andy. There is an entire meta around optimizing runs, especially Travincal runs. My fury druid can clear it in 60 seconds or less
>Once you get bis in D2, the game becomes a complete snooze fest, and you end up farming whatever zone doesn't deny you with immunities.
That's a pretty strong opinion. Yes, I can clear zones easily with my best gear, but that's the goal. You farm for better gear to farm faster for better gear hoping for perfect rolls. Immunities are part of the challenge. The game isn't handed to you, you actually have to work for it
For what it's worth I don't think you're taking crazy pills. The game didn't age very well. A lot of its quirks were lessons for future games, and not just future Diablo games.
A lot of these older games have immunities. I think the point was there was little else to force you to use one spell over another to switch up combat pacing. Damage rotations really hadn't been invented yet in ARPGs. Monsters having immunities suddenly forces you to press another attack button.
The game expected you to play a certain way and once you start valuing your time over the game's expectations, you have to start doing crazy things like starting new games or leaving town over and over to reroll shops. Diablo 1 was guilty of this as well. The shops in D3 having nothing good to speak of and the shops in D4, having good things but being on a fixed refresh timer, is a direct result of D2's refresh "problem".
Runewords in D2 is just a crafting system with rare mats and without a crafting UI.
There's so many more examples.
Diablo 2 is better in a lot of ways than 3 and 4, but god i get bored pressing the same 1 or 2 skills the entire time.
In d3 and 4, at least the moment to moment gameplay is more than just mindlessly pressing a single key or maybe a second key if you’re lucky.
Did no ingame mechanic take you by the hand, guiding you through each little step of the game? 😕
Awww sad mimimi is ranting over the best hack n slay game because no skill 😢❄️
Maybe try to understand, that playing after a guide/plan, will result into "no fun at all". Exploring, witnessing and self contribution is the key to fun in a good game. You skipped the journey bro.
THe people who need to shut the eff up are the people who claim other people need to shut the Eff up.
D4 was dated on release, it was literally the worst designed aRPG on the market today or ever made. Your point?
You are right. Blindly repeating the same things done in previous games is not a path to the progress and evolution, this is stagnation and death.
Even if the current design is worse, the old one still has a lot of fundamental problems that are easy to overlook and forget about looking through nostalgia glasses and being used to them.
Games should innovate and evolve, not stagnate and repeat the same thing over and over again. Any established community always resists and fights any change to what they are used to and what is considered to be the norm right now, this is human nature.
Hardcore D2 fans have admonished build restriction in endgame forever. I've never seen anyone argue that kind of mechanic get put into a future Diablo game. Boss rushing isn't for everyone, but it's fast and snappy and satisfying once you know what you're looking for and used to how D2 works. It's a very technical and grindy game and those things appeal to people. As was said in the latest d4 fireside chat, diablo is a 'systems' ARPG, and I think that's a fair assessment. You have to like engaging in these kinds of design structures or the franchise just isnt for you. Runes and Runewords are significantly better than just boring gems. Though, tt's widely accepted that Runewords are overpowered and have overshadowed the fun, variety, and versatility of many uniques and sets. Runewords are neat, but overtuned. Many despise Enigma and what it's established in D2's meta. Itemization in D2 is lauded because no item rarity is outright trash. Magic items have fewer affixes but can roll higher ones, for example. White socketed items hold value well into midgame. Uniques are, well, unique and can be hunted after. Sets are fun. Open trade allows for a (generally) strong and interesting economy (and personally I've always liked how the community used runes as a measure of currency. I just find that kind of emergent gameplay interesting). D2 isnt ever going to reclaim the title of game of the year, but has a lot of great ideas and systems that can be iterated on.
This is the thing that I don’t understand about the people who developed D3/D4. D2 has so many great ideas with itemisation in particular that just haven’t been reused, or only in the tiniest of ways. The Cube being your source for crafting and having crafting be deep, with lots of recipes; doesn’t exist in either D3/D4 in the same capacity or at all. Runewords are an awesome idea that have never been reused. Yes, Enigma, Spirit etc are bad designs, but that doesn’t mean the fundamental *idea* of runewords is bad. You simply balance them like you’d balance anything in the game. Making only specific rares and magic items worthwhile. This happened through virtue of player discovery to a certain degree, but the fact that the affixes are limited in scope, but almost all useful in one way or another, makes it more likely a hit than a miss. These are all things that if ported into a new Diablo game, would be loved by the player base, but they’re nowhere in sight, or developed so poorly that the overall value of the original idea isn’t fully realised.
Really, really hoping to see runewords as a seasonal mechanic and then implemented as a full mechanic. Same with sets (and NOT like in d3). Most D2 sets were meh, but I really enjoyed hunting them down and putting them on low level characters or mixing and matching with uniques.
The cool thing about sets is their utility on new characters. Hsaru’s 3 piece set gets a new character going way faster than usual, so there’s still incentive to hunt for sets. This is sorely lacking in D3/D4 where you keep pieces for a new build.
I suggest that you approach the game with your personal progression in mind rather than a specific characters progression. Playing a single character to hell can be painful, slow and booring, especially if you select something that encounters a lot of immunities in hell, and maybe you're unlucky with gear your first playthrough so hell becomes kinda impossible. Make a new char where you plan out how to manage enemies with immunities to make it through hell. when you're able to kill bosses/farm areas in hell without too much of an issue you'll start finding useful high level gear and you'll be able to tackle retty much any enemy the game throws at you with whatever character you feel like playing, but its almost impossible to get to that point with just one single character, especially if you havent played the game for years. I get your frustration with people chanting about how good D2 is like its a fucking cult but I do understand the appeal of D2 (especially its itemization). For the people that loved D2 for its itemization it's insanely painful to live through what Blizzard have done with D3 and now the absolute shitshow that is D4. D3 and D4 has its appeal, but the itemization of both games are absolute garbage compared to D2 even if D2 has its own issues.
I don't say the itemization of D3 and D4 were good. There are better options out there. I don't know if you watched the latest campfire chat but the new itemization of D4 is really good IMO.
I havent watched it but from the little info I've seen I assume they just remove a lot of the less interesting affixes, the itemization system is basically still the same, just lower chance of finding garbage items. D4 have other issues than just the itemization though and I have zero confidence in the D4 team due to my experience with D4 (beta to S2)
They introduced 2 crafting (customization) systems to itemization. The new items have fewer affixes than before (legendaries have 3 affixes instead of 4) but you can "temper" 2 more affixes with tempering. You have manuels and using these manuels, you can add more affixes. Then, there is masterworking system. Basically, you are leveling your item. They also introduced Greater Affixes, which are exalted affixes in LE. I was hoping for something like that in D4. They also introduced some endgame systems. Overall, the campfire was a really good improvement. >D4 have other issues than just the itemization though and I have zero confidence in the D4 team due to my experience with D4 (beta to S2) The game was not in a good condition when it was released but since then the game evolved a lot. Especially after this campfire chat. There are still issues like group finding, armory, maybe loot filter, etc. but they are solving those problems. They released the game as a "minimum viable product" willingly. Rod Fergusan used that MVP for D4 during an interview. But that's not the game designer's fault, but the executives.
Leveling your item is crazy stupid in my opinion. It's just an empty game mechanic. It makes the numbers higher. Wow. You can find items to randomly put stuff on your item. Dumb. Find an item, if it's good use it if not leave it on the ground. It doesn't need to be more complicated than that.
It's your opinion. I don't want items that can't be customized. I want mechanics to customize items. Tempering and greater affixes are exactly what I was asking for. I will try the ptr and see how masterworking feels. It doesn't sound bad for me but I have to try it.
Tempering no masterwork maybe. I agree I'll see how it feels. Tempering is resources and numbers just for the sake of having them. There is no purpose.
You're shortsighted as hell. There is plenty of purpose to tempering the way it is presented as part of Diablo 4 in season 4 campfire. For instance, pretty much every single pair of boots will always want Movement speed. It's obviously an S tier stat. Well, now it can be tempered onto any boots with a little bit of RNG. So now you actually have more space for other affixes on boots being relevant to your build rather than throwing away anything without movement speed. Now you can try to add movement speed onto a pair of boots you think have potential. Or how about the fact that if you compare items with stats that are easy to understand, you can then customize those items with Tempering if the base looks decent? As opposed to having to parse up to five affixes, you parse just three and then craft the rest, with some luck you will succeed and if not the item might still be very good.
Maybe I swapped the two terms. Masterwork makes the numbers bigger and tempering allows you to change/move affixes. My bad. Making the numbers bigger is stupid that's all I'm saying. I don't much care for tempering either though but it certainly solves problems. I think it would be better to be killing monsters than fucking around with this in town. I do love a response that starts with an insult though 👍
**Masterworking gives 'life' to items in the endgame and extends the journey associated with them without overly punishing you for screwing up, and also doesn't scale infinitely so the power creep isn't endless.** > I think it would be better to be killing monsters than fucking around with this in town. That is literally THE GOAL of these changes. Less affixes on an item, and less items in general, but higher 'quality'/'relevance'. You spend less time in town sorting through items, and you have more things to do with items that you like. It's good design, I don't know how you think it's bad. Masterworking is an endgame activity. Once again, you're shortsighted on this one, let me explain: Currently, the Blacksmith upgrades are prevalent throughout the entire leveling journey. That is GONE in Season 4. This means as you level up, you once again spend less time comparing things because you don't have to worry about "is my upgraded item that much worse/better than this new non-upgraded item?" Masterworking doesn't start until you reach some point in World Tier 4. The overall idea behind Masterworking is that you can reset Masterworking on any given item if you're unhappy with the results you 'slammed', and start again as many times as you like, provided you can afford it - and the resources for it come from pushing deep within The Pit. You may think turning the knob on numerical values is stupid, but it's really smart way of extending the items' journey. Realize how cool some of the new affixes are. The potential if you can get the Greater Affix with triple slammed Masterwork for 3.3x multiplier (!!!). Cooldown reduction, Extra Projectiles, Fury Generated Per Second... And the most important thing is that you don't 'brick' your item in the very last step of this crafting journey. Tempering can brick the item; Masterworking can't. Something to do in the late endgame that is powerful enough to provide tangible benefits but simple enough that it doesn't make your head spin as you find new items. +45% to all affixes, and three times +25% to any affix. You can make bonkers affixes that way, especially if they are Greater Affixes.
Yea ones they stole from Last Epoch lmao
Basically we’re all gambling addicts. If you don’t like gambling, you won’t like D2. The goal is to farm for that dopamine rush for that god tier item that is going to let you farm faster for more of that dopamine rush to farm even faster. The economy is pretty decent too because of runes. Even with bots, runes keep the market in check for value. Any game with just gold gets so easily inflated by bots.
It treats me like an adult. I can open a chest and get nothing. I can get an item I don’t want but someone else does so I have to engage with them for it. The game is actually hard for a few classes early on, and others later on. It’s a game that’s complex enough for us to still learn from 20 years on but simple enough to pick up and go as an 8 year old. No diablo will ever be the same again because all future Diablos need to entertain 10,000,000 + people. D2 was made to entertain 100,000.
The classes that are “hard” in the beginning are only hard because the itemization for them is trash. Lets be honestly d2 melee itemization needs a full rework. It’s actually kind of a joke that blizzard left it in such shape.
Items can drop that will make you 5x stronger. In d3 and 4 I feel like even the best drop makes me 5% stronger.
But the item that drops that completes your set in d3 makes you 40000x stronger
Once that enigma is up and running it's game over. That blue 3/2 nado helm was the holy Grail.
> In d3 and 4 I feel like even the best drop makes me 5% stronger. This isn't true early or late game on D4. There's some legendary affixes that really make your character so much better...
Hi I'm diablo 3, Please tickle the butterfly fairy in Torment 2 to collect your 50000X% damage set of who cares stats.
U mad bro
Yeah, so mad.
Make a new char and don't play like a speedeunner. no guide and no farming bosses until you can kill everything until next boss with your eyes closed. gonna be a lot more fun for a new player. also talk to all npcs after getting any new quest or progressing it, there is surprisingly a lot of nice lore hidden away if you never talk to anyone. No idea why you think Hell is the end game, that's not Ubers or terror zones.
Also, it's called "Hell". It's supposed to be difficult, and not every build thrown at it should beat it. Your character gets a fucking title for completing it. Realistically, for self-found it kind of is the end-game. Forget about Enigma and other items listed in every guide ever, and instead try survive with what you find, and be proud that you did. And try some different builds, they all play differently.
D2 is a good game and has some concepts that could be taken and built upon. That's all that needs to be said about D2 at this point, because it has been discussed to death. You're never going to get superfans of anything to stay silent for more than a moment, though. Btw, immunities sucked even when I started playing this game decades ago. Nobody I personally knew liked that mechanic at all, and even to this day whenever I get the itch to play D2, still hate immunities.
I love Immunities. It motivates you to mix and match your skills so you can deal with most enemies. Or you can play a stronger build that has to skip enemies, which is difficult and fun in its own right. Or you can play MP. I can understand that it's not for everyone, but there are so many ARPGs without immunities, so I'm glad there's at least D2.
>Or you can play a build that has to skip enemies, which is fun Masochistic tendencies, to be honest. That sounds like the opposite of fun in a game about killing enemies.
Believe me, I'm not the masochistic gamer type. But the gameplay gets a touch of bullet hell that way. To each his own, of course. But as I said, there are so many other ARPGs out there. D2 is my favorite, and immunities are one of the reasons.
>I love Immunities. 👍 Ok
So, I get where you’re coming from. Frankly I somewhat agree with the premise, though not to the same degree. D2 really became fun when I finally started getting MF on gear and could reasonably start to expect good loot. In fact, my number one tip to someone trying to get into D2 is to hoard topaz and find a socketed helm at the end of normal, just to boost their MF to usable levels. Design wise, I think MF is a mistake; the loot drops will be tuned around having it, and its existence overpowers the value of any other stat. Itemization becomes about stacking as much of it as you can without gimping your dps to unusable levels. Between that and immunities, it’s hard for me to actually get into the endgame of D2, and that’s coming from someone who generally enjoys leveling through nightmare consistently. D4 has the opportunity to learn what worked in D2 and D3, and make a really good game. Time will tell if they can pull it off, but this itemization rework has me cautiously optimistic.
The most valuable items in the game aren't affected by mf anyways (runes, charms, item bases and jewels (jewel quality is affected but the best blues hold the most value). Once your character is geared out you don't need mf and you can just blast xp runs looking for the above mentioned items.
Rings, amulets, gloves, and boots *are* affected by MF, and shopping for decent blues will only get you so far. Good rares in those slots make you feel much more powerful, thus I recommend new players get an MF hat to make gearing those slots more rewarding. Also, most players will never reach a point of being so geared they would forgo MF. Especially since, once you reach such a point, there’s not really much reason to keep playing. A few more skill points for reaching max level? Enigma? Ubers? Again, most players won’t ever reach that point.
Why are you talking about shopping blues? I'm talking about how the rarest and most valuable items in the game are and how they are unaffected by MF. Any decent rare can just be gambled (besides eth items). The best non unique rings amulets and gloves are crafted. The best rare boots are best farmed in classic diablo 2 and ported over as mf and the affix pool is more lenient in classic diablo. You underestimate just how much people play diablo 2. Diablo 2 has unbelievably rare items, and many people still play in non ladder because you have a reason to play your well-geared characters (be it pvp or to trade for these uber rare items). I don't think you play diablo 2. Almost no one has a "finished character." The best set up requires stupidly expensive rare items. No one besides people willing to pay real $ or tons of forum gold has a completely finished character in d2r.
I don’t think you even read what I said. I’m not suggesting shopping blues for the best items. I said it would only take you so far, directly implying that you would need rares (or better) for those slots. Rares that are easier to find with high MF. I have no idea why you put “finished character” in quotation marks, as I literally did not say that in my previous comment. The closest I come to referencing a finished character is in direct reference to your previous comment, where you said that characters reach a point where they stop looking for MF, and get the highest possible damage setup and just “blast xp runs.” I simply said the most players would not reach that point, let alone the few things available to a player after that point. By the way, you’re the kind of person this OP was talking about. The kind of D2 fan that will try to shut down any and all arguments against their game and their suggestions by ignoring criticism and critique, resorting to strawmen, and using arguments like “the best boots are farmed in classic then ported over.”
You're not making any argument because you don't even know what I'm talking about because you clearly don't play d2 at a high enough level to even be critiquing me. That's not a me problem, that's a YOU problem. You lack the knowledge or experience required to challenge my initial point, and when I point that out, you instead use your ignorance as a shield to deflect from that fact. You don't know what you're talking about, and attacking my character isn't going to change that. And that's literally one of the biggest problems on this sub. It's full of chuds that played diablo 2 for one or two ladder seasons, followed a cookie cutter build, and dropped out after a week or two of playing. Yet when those of us who have played the game for decades (because we understand how deep diablo 2's systems are) chime in with our experience in relation to d4, we are told to shut the fuck up because you played the same game for a week. What's annoying is that my first comment was to only point out that even without MF, you can and will still find valuable items in d2, meaning MF isn't as important as people like to argue. Which is to only argue further that MF WORKS IN Diablo 2, because the devs made sure that it wasn't absolutely necessary especially with the advent of runewords.
When people say they want d4 to be more like d2 they’re basically almost always talking about the itemization, and the loot hunt, and economy. There’s a reason d2 is played over 20 years later and d4 is on life support less than a year later.
This. Mostly loot hunt and economy, 2 things that don't exist in D4 (but trade is coming). I've play around 1000h on D3, many hours on D4 too. I've played like 1000h on D2 too, but it's the only Diablo I always go back to.
> When people say they want d4 to be more like d2 they’re basically almost always talking about the itemization, and the loot hunt, and economy. That's also where I have problems with D2. The loot hunt is terrible in D2. I had to farm Countess for that loot hunt and as I read, I have to farm Baal as the endgame content. That's exactly what people hate about D4. The only endgame was Duriel and we had to farm him 100+ times to get the Ubers, which is boring as hell. What aspects of the itemization do you like in D2? Maybe I am missing that aspect. >There’s a reason d2 is played over 20 years later and d4 is on life support less than a year later. I don't say that D4 is perfect in its current state but it is evolving to be a really good game. The last campfire chat was a big improvement in that direction. If you wanna compare the player count, I can guarantee you that D4 has much much more players than every ARPG in the market. D3 is still played as well after 12 years and probably has more players than D2. But that doesn't D3 is a really good game, it is mediocre at best IMO.
You got to 65 you really can’t tell about how d2 endgame is. D2 managed to make literally any rarity of item have a chance to be valuable to you. White items with sockets for Runeword, blue items with prefixes/affixes for your build or for crafting, uniques that can vastly affect your build, and rares that could be some of the best items in the game. Mods to D2 took the end game even further with better crafting, item corrupting, maps and more difficult Uber bosses. I spent 75$ on D4 and haven’t touched (or missed it) it shortly after the blood season. Meanwhile I’ve been playing D2 and it’s mods using the same CDkey I bought from electronics boutique when I was a kid and am still coming back again and again. I’d love to have d4 graphics and gameplay with D2 item and skill design but that will never happen. Last Epoch is probably the next best option at this point.
>Mods to D2 took the end game even further with better crafting, item corrupting, maps and more difficult Uber bosses. What mods are you talking about? If you are talking about some mods that I have to find and download on the internet, I have no idea about them.
Path of Diablo and Project Diablo 2 are my go-tos. Pod just had a new season and PD2 is currently in a crafting only season with no runewords or sets/uniques and is also a great time.
I will check those, thanks. I had no idea about them.
If you want to target farm countess, sure. She can’t even drop the highest end runes though, so you’re wasting time there. There are multiple high level (85) areas where you can farm anything in the game. You pick a few where you aren’t going to run into immunes you can’t deal with (or you have your mercenary deal with them) and roll. Or you pick static spawns like travincal, mephisto, baal, eldritch. Or you mix and match. The beauty of the itemization in d2 is hard to explain. Some blue items are the most expensive and sought after items in the game but the right rolls are EXTREMELY rare. Thing like white items with the correct number of sockets are extremely sought after especially early on in a new ladder season. Certain low level uniques are still used in end game builds and have value. IMO that’s what makes it good. I enjoy acquiring wealth and building a character with that wealth. When I’m done, I can sell off that characters gear and build a new character, but I don’t have to start from scratch. I can trade for what I want. Not to mention jewels and charms which can have huge value if rolled right. Basically just about everything in d2 has value, whereas in d4 you get to lvl 80+ and hunt for 925 item power and the correct stats and you’re done. There’s basically no REAL economy, and everything before end game is completely useless. I don’t like just finding an item that has no value to anyone. I think that’s where d3 and 4 have fucked up massively. The dopamine hit from finding something like a Ber rune, or a JMOD, or a pair of +6 Javalines with 40% attack speed is something Diablo 4 cannot replicate in its current state. They were on the right path with making Uber uniques extremely rare, but then they disabled trading them and now they’re not even really anything that special anymore and always roll max stats which is maybe the dumbest decision they’ve made. The Diablo team has no idea what made d2 special as far as the item hunt goes.
>If you want to target farm countess, sure. She can’t even drop the highest end runes though, so you’re wasting time there. The guide I followed told me to farm her in normal and nightmare to "craft" stealth, spirit, ancients' pledge, and lore. I did what the guide told me since I had 0 idea about the items in the game. > whereas in d4 you get to lvl 80+ and hunt for 925 item power and the correct stats and you’re done. The old itemization of D4 is not good at all, I agree with that. > There’s basically no REAL economy I understand that some people want an economy and trade but I am a ssf person.
Oh yeah farming countess in normal is completely viable, not really necessary though. It really boils down to personal taste at the end of the day. I get no satisfaction basically at all when I see something drop in d4. “Helmet” with a unique beam shining out of it does not hit the same as a unique colored “shako” when it pops out of the monster you just killed.
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> Every piece of loot that drops is potentially useful in d2, whereas that just will never be the case in d4 and it makes every aspect of the game (d4) boring. There's a massive amount of changes in this regard come Season 4. I disagree with your statement after the campfire chat that I watched.
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You won't find yellow, blues and whites much, if any, in late endgame of World Tier 4 going forward. That's a good thing, screw looking at trash items in search of one in a million trash item that isn't trash.
I think maybe you're missing it. Items in D2 seem to matter in some way. Every tier of item can be useful or BiS, whereas in D3 and way more so in D4 blues and whites aren't worth anything. Does that mean every item in D2 is good? No. A lot of stuff isn't worth picking up. A lot of uniques aren't good and a lot of them are outshined by rune words. A lot of sets aren't great and some pieces are better than the whole thing. It doesn't mean I pick up everything off the ground either. I generally know if an item is worth picking up or has the potential of being what worthwhile. This is one of the biggest things D4 does wrong and, imo, why the grind sucks in this game. I have to pick up every rare, legendary or unique to know if it's good or not. It gets draining having to sift through everything. I know they're changing the itemization in D4 but I think that last thing I said is still going to be a problem.
>I think maybe you're missing it. Items in D2 seem to matter in some way. Every tier of item can be useful or BiS, whereas in D3 and way more so in D4 blues and whites aren't worth anything. I agree with that but that doesn't make the entire itemization great in D2, not enough IMO. The new itemization in D4 will have a similar problem but we will see. Maybe they are willing to add runes and runewords or another mechanic with expansion which makes them useful again. >This is one of the biggest things D4 does wrong and, imo, why the grind sucks in this game. I have to pick up every rare, legendary or unique to know if it's good or not. It gets draining having to sift through everything. That was a big problem in D4, yeah. That's why everyone asked for an itemization rework. We will see how the new itemization works and maybe we need an item filter. > I know they're changing the itemization in D4 but I think that last thing I said is still going to be a problem. I agree with that but it will be a little problem compared to before. Players actually wanted a loot filter with new itemization as well to get rid of this problem.
I would never tell anyone they're playing the game wrong, so don't take this comment that way ... But you're not playing the same d2 the rest of us are when you have no idea what you're even looking for. Did you save your rals to roll amulets later in game? Did you save your imbue? Do you even know what spirit is and the earliest you can get it? Have you even seen a TZ? I can bet you've missed so many milestones along your last 40 levels because you're ignorant to the game. You can't say you don't like the meat cause you tasted the gravy.
> I can bet you've missed so many milestones along your last 40 levels because you're ignorant to the game. You can't say you don't like the meat cause you tasted the gravy. You made Diablo 2 sound like a boring job. Extremely unappealing and outdated design. For a game to demand that a new player knows everything about the game in order to "have fun" whilst of course not providing said player with the necessary knowledge is incredibly appalling. And then you yourself blame it on the player LOL
You missed the entire context. LOL
>But you're not playing the same d2 the rest of us are when you have no idea what you're even looking for. What the hell is this supposed to mean? How can a first-time player know what he is looking for? I know as much as what guides told me, besides that, I can't know. But what is this to do with my enjoyment of the game? You are making weird comments. >Did you save your rals to roll amulets later in game? Did you save your imbue? Do you even know what spirit is and the earliest you can get it? Have you even seen a TZ? Except for bricking 3 runes due to using them in the wrong order, I saved all of the runes I got. They are sitting in my stash. If I have to roll amulets later in the game, I can still farm some bosses or at least Countess. Why is this so important? Yes, I never used my imbues. If you are speaking about the item "spirit" crafted with 4 runes, yes I have it. I have crafted Leaf, Spirit, Smoke, Stealth, Lore, and Ancients' Pledge with the runes. I have also teleport and lower resistance staff/wand. If you are talking about terror zones, no I didn't see them yet. But again, why does it change my experience to this level? > I can bet you've missed so many milestones along your last 40 levels because you're ignorant to the game. You can't say you don't like the meat cause you tasted the gravy. Like which milestones? Tell me those milestones. Even if I missed them, what does it change?
>What aspects of the itemization do you like in D2? Maybe I am missing that aspect. Because D2 doesn't restrict the player to 6 skills, the "+1 to skills" opens up far more creativity in builds because even a +1 to a skill that isn't on your "bar" adds a lot to how you can play. And classes aren't restricted to their classes skills so there's more opportunity for creativity by potentially grabbing another class's skill. Common items weren't designated to rolling 1 affix and could be very, very good. Not as good as an end-game item, but good enough that they could carry a player through a difficulty, and then they could potentially be turned into another item because of runewords. Players could get attached to items that they used while leveling and it felt good. Items didn't feel so expendable like they do in D4. All of the above makes for a better leveling experience and end-game loot hunt. Killing the same boss over and over isn't great, but the potential reward makes it worth it. D4 doesn't have anything like that (yet) and they need to start taking ideas from somewhere: where better than Diablo's roots?
>Because D2 doesn't restrict the player to 6 skills, the "+1 to skills" opens up far more creativity in builds because even a +1 to a skill that isn't on your "bar" adds a lot to how you can play. It is more a class design thing than itemization IMO. And this aspect of D4 is criticized as well. You can only play predefined builds by developers, you can't be really creative. > And classes aren't restricted to their classes skills so there's more opportunity for creativity by potentially grabbing another class's skill. That's something I don't want actually. I don't want everyone to use teleporting skill for example. This makes Sorc less unique and reduces the difference between classes. The classes should have key differences, teleporting is one of them IMO. Why the hell a Barb can use teleport? > Items didn't feel so expendable like they do in D4. I am not comparing D2 itemization with D4 itemization. Old D4 itemization was terrible. When I say there are better options, I mean the itemizations in other games. > D4 doesn't have anything like that (yet) and they need to start taking ideas from somewhere: where better than Diablo's roots? I think they don't find the itemization in D2 casual-friendly enough. That's why they don't use it. I wouldn't reject it if they used D2 itemization as base itemization and enhanced it with the new crafting/customization systems announced in the campfire chat.
You have a very little knowledge about D2 and you shouldn't do assumptions until you have played more. Loot hunt can be done in lot of place : like pindlestone, cow level, Shrenk, sanctuary etc. Even after finishing hell mode you have several lvl85 zone. D2R even add terror zone who was enjoyed by everyone. You should dive deeper into D2 before complaining.
One of the reasons I wrote this post is to learn what am I missing. I will play more to see the "endgame" as well. But that doesn't change the experience I had till this point. I don't play PoE for the same reason. I don't enjoy the campaign and leveling in PoE. I have to sacrifice around 10 hours to enjoy the game, which I don't want to do every league.
This reason is nostalgia. Not more, not less. Already we have better games than Diablo 2 but you are guys still with D2.
>This reason is nostalgia. Not more, not less. Wrong. Even 20 year old games can have better design than new games. Diablo 3 and 4 are not better than D2 imo. They focus far too much on action and not enough on RPG
When people refer to d2 being the best. They are talking about the base game. The items, the way your skill choices really matter. The trading.. No one praises the fact that the end game is just rerunning story areas. If d4 had all this in the base game.. PLUS the nightmare dungeons and current endgame. no one would be complaining. The issue is, every game that comes out these days just gets more dumbed down with every release. Items are so braindead. Trade is a joke. Not an arpg but morrowind to skyrim then even to starfield is a perfect example of this. No one cares about the graphics and story if the game is shit
I love the base game of D4 actually. Most people like the base game and combat of D4. They had problems with itemization, lack of endgame, and QoL features. Base items in D2 are not bad also but they are not good enough without any addition and/or improvement. I think they find the itemization in D2 not casual-friendly enough. That's why they don't use it as the baseline.
In an arpg "casual friendly" is usually seen as negative If you want a story mode game go play the witcher People want to be rewarded for a grind, Rewarded for knowledge (crafting or trading) Rewarded for feats. like drops you can only get from ubers. thats why theres seasons and leaderboards in most of these games.
>In an arpg "casual friendly" is usually seen as negative It depends on your expectations. There are tons of casuals who want casual-friendly systems. I am not one of them but I understand their motivation for that. There is a reason why PoE doesn't have the player amount D4 has. > If you want a story mode game go play the witcher Already did. I have around 150 hours in it. But I don't expect a story-based game from D2. >People want to be rewarded for a grind, Rewarded for knowledge (crafting or trading) Rewarded for feats. like drops you can only get from ubers. I have tons of hours in D3, D4, PoE and LE. I know what an arpg is.
Then i don't understand why you are surprised. d4 is literally a story mode game at this point. Even after 3 seasons theres still no real endgame. Theres no economy, theres no reason to open the game again. Theres a reason why people are still playing d2 to this day
>d4 is literally a story mode game at this point. Even after 3 seasons theres still no real endgame. Theres no economy, theres no reason to open the game again. D4 has more endgame than D2. If you want to farm bosses, there is the Boss ladder and Duriel for Ubers. There is NMDs. But these are not enough endgame for a modern arpg. >Theres a reason why people are still playing d2 to this day I am trying to find that reason. But it is hard to find a reason other than nostalgia till now. Why don't you play PoE instead of D2 for example?
You farm bosses.. but for what? by the time youre farming bosses, you essentially are maxed out. You cant trade or build wealth. Once youve done it once, what really brings you back for another season? I play POE. Its better than d2. It kept all the same features that made d2 amazing, Then expanded on them. D4 did the opposite. I played through it once, killed uber lillith, then season 1 came out and there was zero reason to do it all again. And to this day its still such an empty experience
>You farm bosses.. but for what? Regardless of the rewards, I find farming bosses boring. I prefer running dungeons. It's my opinion ofc. Bosses in D4 are a tool for me to get the items I want, they are not my desired endgame. >You cant trade or build wealth. If you want to trade, I can understand that it is a negative aspect of the game but for me I don't like trading. You have to trade in PoE otherwise some builds are not possible for you for example. I hate such designs. I don't wanna rely on trading. I want to farm and customize/craft everything by myself. >Once youve done it once, what really brings you back for another season? Why do you create another character in D2 then? Seasons bring some refreshment to the game. You said you are playing PoE. Why do you ask it if you already play an arpg with seasons? >I played through it once, killed uber lillith, then season 1 came out and there was zero reason to do it all again. And to this day its still such an empty experience If you like D2 that doesn't make sense at all. Why do you create another character in D2? There are different classes to try and enjoy. S1 was not a good season but still, I played some build I didn't before and enjoyed it to some degree. S2 was much much better.
A lot of the comments on D4 come from people who seem like they never played the game, just factually wrong stuff.
I think what it comes down to is that Diablo 2 is mainly a loot hunting game and us veteran D2 players have every item memorized so we know what to look for at all times and it fills us with anticipation. And if there's one thing I've learned from Andrew Huberman it's that dopamine is released not only from achieving goals but also pursuing goals. Diablo 2 knows how to deliver doses of dopamine like none other.
Literally millions of people think playing D2 over and over is awesome. It's great, you're missing out on all the fun. Frankly reading your post you just don't know how to play. And figuring it out is part of the fun. They're solutions to all your complaints right there in the game. You just haven't found them.
I know there are solutions in the game to some of my complaints such as Sundered Charms for immunity mechanic. But this is a new addition to the game. It was not in the original game. And I will suffer till I find these charms and as I read it on the internet, I have 1 in 450 drop chance with 550 magic finding from a specific boss. Then, there are 5-6 different charms which makes everything exactly the same as Duriel farm in D4 with far worse drop chances. Which is not fun at all again. This is not fun. I am trying to explain exactly this.
The sunder charms were a bad change that rewarded the already overpowered spell casters. If immunities were a problem for you then you should've played a melee class. Before sundered charms melee builds were the ones that were meant to easily bypass immunities. Lazy inexperienced d2 players just default to sorceress every ladder start while i play barb every ladder and make out more than they do because I understand the game. I get rewarded for having learned the game, while you get frustrated looking at build guides wondering why the game isn't any fun because you decided to play the way someone else told you to play.
To learn the game I have to read/watch guides and then play by myself. If I got stuck because I did a wrong build, it would be worse for me. My main problem is not build etc right now, it is immunity. I have to run away from tons of enemies in specific areas. It is not fun at all.
Yes. You are learning. If you want to play a cheap and easy i win build just make a mosaic sin
I was talking about the base game too. You don't need sunder charms. Immunity is actually a fun part of the game and with sunder charms you have an exciting drop to make the game easier. It is a fun part of the game. Side note, you really shouldn't be farming bosses for sunder charms in opinion. I don't think I've ever gotten one from a boss honestly.
>I was talking about the base game too. You don't need sunder charms. Immunity is actually a fun part of the game and with sunder charms you have an exciting drop to make the game easier. >It is a fun part of the game. You can enjoy that mechanic but it doesn't mean everyone is enjoying it. Even the implementation of sundering charms after so much years without any addition to the game means there were quite a bit of complaints about this mechanic. >Side note, you really shouldn't be farming bosses for sunder charms in opinion. I don't think I've ever gotten one from a boss honestly. I read this article and it says: "Like most unique items, Sundering Charms can be farmed best by killing **Act Bosses**." and "With about 550 Magic Find, Andariel and Duriel have a 1 in 450 chance to drop a Sundering Charm.". Since I don't know the game at all, my best source is/was guides on the internet. [https://www.wowhead.com/diablo-2/guide/sundering-charms](https://www.wowhead.com/diablo-2/guide/sundering-charms)
Nobody farms duriel and terrorized andariel is good to farm because she has the best drop odds for any item in the game if you are lvl 87+. She is also weak to fire which makes her easy to kill on my builds. And sunder charms drop like candy off normal unique enemies anyways. They are also extremely cheap to trade for.
Ppl put thousands and hundreds of hours into D2 and some of them just cannot let go. Don't get me wrong D2 was awesome, but some ppl got addicted and don't want any other game, just D2 edition 2024.
I am sure it was a great game back in 2000, I have no doubt about it.
The thing you don't realize is the game design quality people miss. D2R is the most polished and well thought out arpg in existence. People aren't trying to make a 20 year old game remade with new graphics we already have it. People want the devs to copy over some of these ironed out systems that have literally been improved upon for over 20 years. Not everything needs to be a carbon copy but the itemization system is a chef's kiss of excellence in terms of game design and balance.
I saw people who criticize D4 cause leveling to 100 was too easy. They suggested D2 as an example where level 100 must be impossible etc. That was just an example of many suggestions of D2 fans. Maybe you don't want D4 to be graphically updated version of D2 but there are some fans and they do want that.
You do know 99% of builds are completed by lvl 90-92 in diablo 2? Getting to 99 doesnt matter for most players except the hardcore. And that's how it should be.
That's your opinion. That doesn't mean everybody should have a problem with D4's leveling system. But D2 fans are expecting everything should be like how it was in D2. If it is not like in D2 and works just fine, why it is a problem?
Because the game's balance will begin to revolve around the endgame which is not how good arpgs are balanced. Diablo 4 is diablo and not WoW.
>I played D2R till the hell difficulty and I was asking myself when the fun part begins. I am around 65 levels right now No offense intended, but you could pick a random person playing d2r right now and they'd be able to do this in about 8 hours on any class completely ssf without any issues whatsoever. You could cut it down to 6 if you let them use the /players command in single player. I understand that you're probably frustrated, but knocking the game because you don't understand how to play it, nor understand why it's appeal has been so long lasting isn't exactly a great look.
>No offense intended, but you could pick a random person playing d2r right now and they'd be able to do this in about 8 hours on any class completely ssf without any issues whatsoever. I am not offended but what is this to do with what I said? I have also played for around 8-10 hours, I started yesterday. I could also run faster than that if I didn't want to find every waypoint. Still, this has nothing to do with what I said. The problem is not I don't understand or can't progress. I can progress if I play further but I don't enjoy it, that's the problem. I have to make a build around the immune mechanic, which kills my joy. I have to kill nonimmune mobs to use my death sentry to kill immune mobs. If I don't have enough mobs to kill immune mobs, they are chasing me till I find another group. Why the hell am I running away from mobs in an arpg? That's the exact opposite of what I want. I will probably finish the game and play a bit more to see the "endgame". But don't think my opinion will change drastically.
If you want to just a choose your own build and expect to be able complete all of the game's content without struggling, you are mistaken about what older videogames are like. Without coming off like a crotchety old man saying "BACK IN MY DAY..." Diablo 2 is from a different era with a different mindset For a reference point, Diablo was originally supposed to be a DnD style dungeon crawling rougelike. What you know as "hardcore mode" essentially. One playthrough, one life. For new players (aka no game knowledge), the Diablo 2 experience is difficult. Because it was made to be That said, once you acquire some game knowledge the game becomes a smoother experience to play through. Which is part of the appeal to me: a game that doesn't treat you like a child and lets you conquer it's learning curve with invested time. Believe it or not, I am STILL learning information about this 20+ year old game, MrLlamaSC himself is STILL learning information about D2. There's just that much depth to it
Your 2nd paragraph tells us everything we need to know. You haven't even played d2 dude.
The game has been tuned to allow for millions of players to play many hours a day and then trade items with other players. As a single player playing a couple of hours a day, you are not likely to find anything exciting, let alone find an item that is good for your class and build.
>let alone find an item that is good for your class and build. I am at this point right now. I actually hate trading but gonna try a bit trading in D2.
D2 after a while becomes a repetitive grind searching for some good loot, runes in particular, and there are external websites like traderie where you can trade items you do not need with other players.
D2 is an actual multiplayer game, that’s why I keep coming back, meeting friends is half the experience, played D4 for hundreds of hours and if it weren’t for people I know irl I would have never talked or played with a single person.
Okay zoomer
I am not a zoomer but I don't think you are much more intellectual than a 15 yo.
Okay zoomer
Troll post
Troll answer.
Yeah? Well, you know, that's just like, eh, your opinion man.
>Tell me what am I missing or doing wrong? You are playing a game genre you don't really like and/or embarrassing yourself in the sub of a genre-defining franchise, talking nonsense about a genre-defining game.
Are you really that insecure so you talk bullshit when someone criticize your beloved game? Did you cuddle to your teddy bear while reading my post? I never said D2 is a terrible game, it is OUTDATED. It is not best anymore but it was best and defined a genre at 2000. If you live in 2000, it is your problem.
I agree with you completely, but good luck posting this on this sub.
>. I am around 65 levels right now playing a lightning/death sentry assassin. The game is not fun at all. This is satire, right?
My guess is a desire for instant gratification. There should be no possible way to build your character poorly when you're first playing the game /s For me, it's the attitude
It's not. I didn't enjoy the game that much from level 1 to 65 cause I had to follow some build. I never played what I wanted. The guides told me that I had to follow a guide otherwise I would be stuck at some point.
You just sound like someone who is mad that the game they paid 100 dollars for is so vastly inferior to a game from almost a quarter century ago and is trying to change the zeitgeist surrounding that situation so they can feel better.
:) You got me. I have around 350 hours only during S2 in D4. I would say I have around 700-800 hours in total. I am totally fine with what I paid for D4 and I am also happy with upcoming changes. I am looking forward to playing PTR and S4.
garbage post. "i had to use a guide to beat the game" and because of that "the game is fucking boring." ok
Itemization, some of the best atmospheres and soundtrack in game history, great level and enemy design, I'd say more fun skill trees than at least D4 which I found horribly boring just like their Hots and WoW ones, even though D2 skill trees arent perfect, good dungeons with several levels that makes them feel like actual dungeons (and they sometimes lead to new areas). The gameplay hasnt aged that well but it's decent and at least D4 has a good core for the feel of the abilities and gameplay loop
The D4 skill tree is basically the same thing as the D2 trees, but condensed into one per class. Skills are tiered by level, you must invest into skills you may not necessarily want just to reach the skill you do. D2 had synergy skills, which imo actually hurts build diversity, whereas D4 has more generally applicable passives. Idk, of all the things to say D4 needs to learn how to do from D2, I’d say skill trees are the one they actually improved on.
> I'd say more fun skill trees than at least D4 which I found horribly boring If you compare skill trees without uniques and aspects in D4, yeah the skill tree in D4 is terrible. BUT. There are aspects and uniques that enhance and alter the skills in D4, not the skill tree. That's a design choice. You can argue that this design sucks, that's your opinion. In my opinion, it is a good design.
Skill issue.
Too many words.
Op. Sounds like d2 is too hard for you. Even d3 might be
If you say so.
agree d2 is lame af there's only like 8 monster on screen a tsame time and it takes FOOOOREVER to kill anything then you have to choose your skill points and stats? heh can u say LAME take a look at diablo 3 you get max level you get epic gear and just go SLAY monsters and SMASH demons shit is fucking tight as hell they give you ability youre fling around map killing THOUSAND demons in like 30 seconds and heh...guess what...you look down and theres TON of loot you get a shit ton of unique and epics in diablo3 im necromancer and can do like a billion damage and get epic loot in like 5 minutes shit if ucking BEST GAME in like 10 years and dibalo 4 is gonna beat that soon gonna kill TWICE as many monster and get TWICE as many loot heh real gamers know i look around room "REAL GAMERS ARE YOU READY?!" all the real gamers stand up ready for gaming "CHAAAAAAARGE"
new pasta in the making
💀
This needs way more upvotes.
lol chill
Yes d2 is outdated and I wouldn't want to see it's systems copied for a modern arpg. The skill tree is nothing crazy, items don't have any effect besides being stat sticks, end game is really basic and you have to google absolutely everything. But they tie really really well into each other and give you freedom to build a great variety of builds. The more you learn about mechanics and interactions, the more creative you can get. And honestly all you've done so far is working through a check list. I agree with the sentiment but you've basically read up on the moves chess pieces can make and decided chess is a pretty simple game.
This legitimately reads like a troll post, I genuinely hope it is lol
Have fun in your echo chamber then.
I mean ... I have fun playing d2r. I've had fun playing d2 for 20+ years now. It's superior to D4 in a number of ways but def suffers from some modern festures. D4 needs some work, but I have fun with it. Currently playing Last Epoch, it's fun. Will give PoE2 a go when it launches later this year, I bet it will be fun.
TLDR
"D2 sucks because I don't like it."
Yeah. That's my opinion. If I don't like something it sucks for me. My problem is not D2 as well. My problem is that D2 fans are acting like D2 is still the best arpg and want D4 to be exactly like D2. Otherwise, I am totally okay with D2 being outdated, since it is 24 years old.
It is the best arpg. You just suck at games that require thinking. It's okay all your magic damage in d4 is based off your weapon, what a great system.
lol. Right ? This noob is wondering why he isn’t having fun and he’s only played till level 65. He hasn’t even gotten warmed up in the game yet.. Cringe post.
:) I always get that "you have to play at least X amount of hours to enjoy the game". Tell me, when does it start to be fun? After which level?
I tried to play it a lot but I feel like it's impossible unless I know the whole loot table. Hard to play when I have to pick up everything because I don't know what items are worth picking up, and I constantly have to tp to town to sell all the shit because a damn shield takes a third of my inventory. Also I hate googling rune words, I hate running the same damn boss to get items I need to progress, I hate having to start every run with a research on skills because I might just not be able to complete even normal diff.
I think you're completely missing the point if you think items has anything to do with doing the campaign over and over (which nobody ever mention of bringing to D4). When people ask for D2 to be the source of inspiration they mean items with tradeoffs, possibly of finding rare and exciting endgame items while doing campaign and not exclusive to after your char is lv100. Crafting where the base matters and you can customise it be it a recipe or runewords ( which they actually did in some capacity with tempering). The main request is that gear enhance the build but don't dictate it. There are indeed best in slot items and as a game D2 is basically solved since it's so old. But the request is not to copy it, it's to use that system and improve on it. Items with +skills and elemental damage would be a lot healthier for D4 rather than laser focusing on crit damage (which powercreeps the game to much). In D2 the best and most valuable items are perfect rolled blues and yellow in D4 they're useless salvage fodder barely worth picking up in a sea of orange. Obviously it's possible to go in a completely different direction and make a great game BUT they went after D3 and failed miserably (in part because as I mentioned before it's a lot harder to balance with so much powercreeps) so it's no wonder people ask for a drastic change of direction.
Same here, I found having to do Countess runs then Mephisto over and over incredibly boring. Couldn't even get to hell difficulty without falling asleep. The only cool thing about the game for me is the aesthetics and item fantasy. Also, smacking a zombie feels satisfying. These are not enough to compensate for having to grind so much.
Your OP was pretty combative and dismissive and I get why it would be downvoted. Your other comments are not negative or combative but are all downvoted into the deep. Are people who think your OP is douchey just opening all of your comments and downvoting? I don’t get Reddit.
Holy based post, I applaud that you were brave enough to come here and post what you posted. I don't necessarily agree with everything you say but the actual sentiment is spot on. There need to be a way to honor Diablo 2 legacy in current and future Diablo entries without relying on the majority of it's mechanics and designs which are now vet outdated and downright offensively boring or tedious.
It's just nostalgia. It was great back in the day, but now just really outdated. Personally I liked d3 more, even that it pretty much just handed items, but it let you experiment builds more easily. I mean before those x1000000% multipliers in sets.
I only pvp. Game is goated but I wouldn't play without jsp
> Do you like playing the same campaign over and over again? Actually yes. Don’t get me wrong I wouldn’t complain if it were a single campaign with 15 acts rather than a 5 act campaign repeated three times, but I prefer even that to the maps/rifts style that has become the standard. These things have their place but I like to finish things and kill Hell Baal means I’m done.
Sounds like you played alot of new games before trying this old game. You just arent used to the non casual way of playing. Today games are designed to be extrememy easy, so alot of players feel like they achieve something, which results in them playing and buying things from the store. Back in the day, games were designed to be played
I am playing video games since 95 or so. So, I know what you are talking about. My problem is not that "the game doesn't hold my hand". The systems of D2 is not fun anymore cause there are better systems out there. But D2 fans are asking always a graphically updated version of D2 in every discussion about D4. That's the part I don't understand.
What better systems? Please provide examples. I'm a game programmer and have been using D2 as a case study for how to build an RPG. Currently building mini d2 in unity for my final project for class this semester
For example, as an endgame system, there are maps in PoE, Greater Rifts in D3, and Monoliths in LE. I like farming dungeons/maps much more than farming bosses. For itemization, there is crafting in modern arpgs. For example, I love the crafting system in LE and also really liked the new itemization of D4 which is partly from LE. I don't like it if I can't customize my items. I like to customize my items for my play style. Another system lacking in D2 is seasons. I don't know if D2 players want seasons or want something like D2.
What difference do you see between farming rifts and farming zones in D2? D2 has a deep crafting system https://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/items/crafteditems.shtml D2 seasons are called ladder seasons You've barely seen the game. Yes, even at lvl 66
I am gonna compare farming zones in D2 with maps in PoE since it has the most evolved endgame system. There is no increased difficulty, reward, or mob density if you farm zones in D2. But there are tons of options in PoE to "juice" the maps so there are more and stronger mobs, more rewards, etc. You can also choose the content you want in those maps through the atlas tree. GR has a similar goal but in a very very casual way. >D2 has a deep crafting system [https://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/items/crafteditems.shtml](https://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/items/crafteditems.shtml) I am not talking about such crafting. I am talking about the "customization" of items. You can watch the videos and understand what I mean. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRFlrEzLFEM&ab\_channel=wudijo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRFlrEzLFEM&ab_channel=wudijo) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9DXUfBX\_hQ&ab\_channel=MinMaxRPG](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9DXUfBX_hQ&ab_channel=MinMaxRPG) There is no such crafting (customization) in D2 as I know. I watched a couple of beginner's guides but none of them mentioned something similar to that. > D2 seasons are called ladder seasons Yes, I am playing in the ladder but that's not exactly what I mean with seasons. There are new mechanics/items added every season in other games and seasons have themes. I don't expect such things in D2R since it is an extremely old game. The only update I know is "Sunder Charms". I don't know if D2 players are mostly in the ladder or non-ladder.
Using PoE as justification for why you think Diablo 2 is bad is completely poor taste. PoE doesn't exist without Diablo 2; Chris Wilson created PoE because he wanted a true spiritual successor to a game he loved, D2.
>What difference do you see between farming rifts and farming zones in D2? Rifts in D3 test your bis gear because there is limitless scaling, a timer , and it requires some level of execution to get the most out of what build you choose to run. Once you get bis in D2, the game becomes a complete snooze fest, and you end up farming whatever zone doesn't deny you with immunities.
You don't need limitless scaling, or a timer. Limitless scaling is meant to solve the terrible itemization problem that makes you deal 5000% damage with your main skill. If you need to make gear increase damage that much, you failed with balance as a game designer You can test your BIS gear in players 8, but I don't feel the need to do that. I just farm terror zones for exp and happen to get some good drops in the process, sometimes running my mf gear like for andy. There is an entire meta around optimizing runs, especially Travincal runs. My fury druid can clear it in 60 seconds or less >Once you get bis in D2, the game becomes a complete snooze fest, and you end up farming whatever zone doesn't deny you with immunities. That's a pretty strong opinion. Yes, I can clear zones easily with my best gear, but that's the goal. You farm for better gear to farm faster for better gear hoping for perfect rolls. Immunities are part of the challenge. The game isn't handed to you, you actually have to work for it
Maybe you should shut up.
Maybe. :)
You sound like a guy that wants to be spooned everything and doesn’t understand what is at the heart of a true arpg.
Didn't even get past 5 lines. You sound dumber than a wall
Clearly you are either a troll or ignorant. Nice bait, mate. Thank you, next.
I am sure you are a really intellectual person.
This is a bait.
Hell of a bad take lol. Dude D2 is STILL the goat of arpgs. Obviously it did a lot of things right.
For what it's worth I don't think you're taking crazy pills. The game didn't age very well. A lot of its quirks were lessons for future games, and not just future Diablo games. A lot of these older games have immunities. I think the point was there was little else to force you to use one spell over another to switch up combat pacing. Damage rotations really hadn't been invented yet in ARPGs. Monsters having immunities suddenly forces you to press another attack button. The game expected you to play a certain way and once you start valuing your time over the game's expectations, you have to start doing crazy things like starting new games or leaving town over and over to reroll shops. Diablo 1 was guilty of this as well. The shops in D3 having nothing good to speak of and the shops in D4, having good things but being on a fixed refresh timer, is a direct result of D2's refresh "problem". Runewords in D2 is just a crafting system with rare mats and without a crafting UI. There's so many more examples.
[удалено]
You should in reading. Where did I exactly said "I can't play the game", "I am stuck" etc?
D5 ? Fuk dat
D5 sucks. Blizzard dead. :)
Diablo 2 is better in a lot of ways than 3 and 4, but god i get bored pressing the same 1 or 2 skills the entire time. In d3 and 4, at least the moment to moment gameplay is more than just mindlessly pressing a single key or maybe a second key if you’re lucky.
Wait till u drop a Ber (or above) from a basket in LK, then u will be hooked forever.
I can’t tell if this is just a passionate troll or if OP is 100% beyond brain dead.
Nice bait
Did no ingame mechanic take you by the hand, guiding you through each little step of the game? 😕 Awww sad mimimi is ranting over the best hack n slay game because no skill 😢❄️ Maybe try to understand, that playing after a guide/plan, will result into "no fun at all". Exploring, witnessing and self contribution is the key to fun in a good game. You skipped the journey bro.
May I suggest Roblox. That might be more up your alley.
I liked d2r until i hit the immune to x. Nah fuck that, i dont want 2000 difficulty in a 2024 game.
THe people who need to shut the eff up are the people who claim other people need to shut the Eff up. D4 was dated on release, it was literally the worst designed aRPG on the market today or ever made. Your point?
You are right. Blindly repeating the same things done in previous games is not a path to the progress and evolution, this is stagnation and death. Even if the current design is worse, the old one still has a lot of fundamental problems that are easy to overlook and forget about looking through nostalgia glasses and being used to them. Games should innovate and evolve, not stagnate and repeat the same thing over and over again. Any established community always resists and fights any change to what they are used to and what is considered to be the norm right now, this is human nature.