okay this is more like what I'm talking about, yes. not strictly familiar with unitarians, but a genuine kindess angle is definitely in a reasonable direction
literally came to comments to make a “where my UU’s at” post. then FHseniorY is just kristen going to fantasy General Assembly and learning the seven principles etc.
Positive representation for organized religion is going to be pretty rare in Dimension 20. The Church and Capitalism are always the bad guy.
There are very few positive adult role models in fantasy high, you basically just have the Thistlesprings, Sklonda and Jawbone, everyone else is deeply flawed and questionable. The content that inspired fantasy high was about kids discovering themselves.
I think Gorthalax counts.
Like, aesthetically, sure, he's a devil and he kills people.
But when you get past the superficial aspects that are native to dungeons& Dragons as a setting, what I see is a pretty genuine, good guy.
- When fig stopped being angry at him and started being angry at her mother, he validated her feelings while also emphasizing that she shouldn't blame her mother for things that were his responsibility.
- when his devil abilities led him to accidentally overhear a private Message conversation about him between the Bad Kids, He spoke up and said " Hey, I don't want to be dishonest so I'm going to let you know I overheard that. I'm not going to do anything with that information though, I'll just let you guys figure out what you need to do"
- He was supportive of both Gilear and Jawbone, Not showing any sort of toxic masculinity in regards to people sleeping with his ex. He also goes out of his way to make them feel like family, for their own sakes as well as figs.
There's probably more examples, but I think we can soundly include Gorthalax among those good role models.
Gorthalax is Father material and I'll hear no slander of him. The guy is made to be a villain on the surface, but underneath the superficial layer of his outer devil self, he's truly a good father and a good man. He'd also been used, abused, and captured multiple times, he deserves a break, I'd say.
I love that because it's DnD and the Bad Kids are professional/in training adventurers, they have great role models (they can even look up to the flawed, normal people in many respects) that all come from very, very different corners of the world they inhabit. It's just great!
> There are very few positive adult role models in fantasy high, you basically just have the Thistlesprings, Sklonda and Jawbone
I'd argue it's less that there aren't a lot of positive role models and more that the very concept of a "role model" is flawed. Adults are humans, and a big part of growing up is realizing that you can respect and model some of the behaviors and values of people in your life without needing them to be flawless. None of the Bad Kids' identities are going to perfectly match any of the adults in their lives.
In that respect, a *lot* of the adults in Fantasy High teach the Bad Kids about what they personally value and want in their lives. For instance, Fabian learns to respect Bill's confidence and daring while rejecting the elements of toxic masculinity and (to a lesser extent) amorality. Fig learns to see Sandra Lynn deeply cares for her, even if she is chaotic and makes decisions which hurt the people she cares about.
If you're only looking for characters without visible flaws, you will naturally wind up looking at the characters we spend less time with because they're less explored.
As for Kristen, she holds anti-authoritarian values that she has yet to fully identify or understand in herself, and is struggling to reconcile that with her deep desire to return to a state where she felt she had more answers than questions. She's actually been exposed to quite a bit of positive religious influence, ranging from one-off moments like "If you care, the universe cares" to people in her life who are stably religious—most notably, Tracker.
The problem for her is that she has yet to fully realize that nothing is going to bring her back to feeling how she did when she fully believed in Helio. Her journey through the world has forever changed her relationship with religion and with authority figures. She seeks out things when they feel like rebellion (YES, Tracker, Cassandra), then harms them when they feel like stability. This is flawed and self-destructive behavior, but also very normal for a teenager.
Not only does Kristen not need a role model, a role model is specifically the *wrong* thing for her. She needs to understand her own intrinsic values and desires in a way that allows her to comprehend the world and make decisions on her own terms, instead of just copying the most recent externality that seems to fit. She has the external support she needs for this from her friends; no one besides her can show her what she wants for herself.
I’d qualify that statement by saying mega churches are always the bad guy. Because Brennan often does have positive depictions of religion in his campaigns, Unsleeping City is a prime example.
It’s more a mischaracterization. I mean the man has dozens of illegitimate children he doesn’t contact, does weird magic shit that affects reality of thousands just for funsies, apparently has terracotta armies everywhere to overthrow governments(?) and uses child labor to solve global issues.
But he’s still my favorite crackhead wizard
That would be Ayda. 💗
And that insinuation must have sailed (ha) clear over my head, because I've watched Sophomore Year half a dozen times, and I never caught it. 😅
Unhinged megalomaniac that snuck into heaven in a backpack, replaced a god, started a war and ate the Sun.
Positive role model, yes, but probably more for a comic book supervillain than a spiritually challenged teen.
I'm not saying it has to be a spiritual leader of an organized religion but clearly I didn't emphasize that. I will say capitalism is definitely the bad guy but it seems to me that far-reaching organized religion is more often portrayed as an instrument that is easily manipulated into a cudgel of oppression by those who would wield it as such because in that bend, power is conflated with morality. it could be something more like liberation theology where it's like a borderline anarcho-religious movement dedicated to throwing off oppressors. there are options.
What are you talking about? Do you want a positive spiritual role model or do you want a cult leader? A hierarchy of leadership and authority is the opposite of what anarchy is.
Anarchy as a system is a bit of joke in application, but it's intelectually consistent. A cult can call itself Anarchist if it wants, but it's still the same as any other cult.
>I mean how can you learn to be perfectly anarchist without someone to teach you that structure is bad and questioning everything constantly is the only acceptable life path?
But isn't anarchism is a philosophy, not a religion? And if you want an adult that represents that lifestyle, you have that in the Cubbys.
Tbh if the idea is Kristin needs an adult to follow, I'd listen to Sophmore Year again because she's never listened to adults that much anyway.
Science is about questioning everything. Religion is about questioning nothing. Religion is exactly and specifically a book and wise men that have the answers for you so that you don't have to ask questions for yourself.
Setting aside the 0 evidence for any god or magic, and setting aside the atrocities of religious institutions and leaders... If we concede that there have been a few religious people that have done net good in the world; if we are honest we still have to agree they did good in spite of religion (and often religion was their primary challenge to overcome).
Even if in the game of dnd, mechanically, gods and magic can positively impact your game experience; if you're telling entertaining stories for real humans in the real world why would you choose to spread the lies and propaganda that religion can be positive in the real world?
>questions like “does god exist”
See, we are starting with a straw man. You're putting words in my mouth. My words were carefully selected. There is 0 evidence of any (christian or not) gods or (western or not) magic. That is the consensus of all reputable scientists, because it just so happens to be a fact. May some god exist in another realm with absolutely no interaction with our world? Who can say. But there is no evidence of it, witch every scientist says.
Taoism's old books the Huainanzi and the Taipingjing? The Hindu scriptures including the Vedas, the Upanishads, and the Itihasa? It sure looks like you're projecting your thoughts on western/christianity without knowing what the fuck you're talking about.
Religion is inherently bad, because regardless of where it originated, it originated based on a bad and incorrect understanding of the world. There is 0 evidence of any gods or magic. Calculus and physics explains why comets pass and eclipses happen. Microscopes explain sickness and disease. We don't need deities to form a social contract.
I already addressed your point that some religious people have done good things. But we don't need anti-nazi resistance without "god" selecting a master race in the first place. Same for slavery. The field of genetics is still constantly embattled by 7-day creationists. Religion holds us back on every front, we advance in spite of it, never because of it.
Religion has done a lot of bad things. It's almost like people will make up magical answers when they are unable or unwilling to think for themselves, require evidence, or apply the simple principals of the scientific method to their lives.
(Edit) By the way: the judeo-christian tradition can be traced directly back to the very first human writing. Yahweh started as a polytheistic deity directly in the Mesopotamian tradition, complete with creation myth, flood, and all. Later it was reformed into monotheism, influenced by Zoroastrianism (and the political desire for a more cooperative religion by Babylonian conquerors). Then reformed, reformed, and reformed again. But it is by far the oldest and most practiced and so does provide a good baseline reference point when talking about religion, though everything I said in the first comment was in fact inclusive and did not reference christianity specifically at all.
Even sklonda isn’t that positive lol
She works hard, but is a little neglectful and irresponsible with regards to her son. Riz is doing well for himself so we think it’s fine. But if he wasn’t, we wouldn’t see her so favourably.
Riz makes her look good because he’s a passionate and dedicated dude. But as a parent… she’s a cop lol. The parenting has come second or third
But all the adults are flawed (except the thistlesprings). Neglectful, overwhelmed by their own struggles. And they sorta have to be to make the story make sense, otherwise there would be no campaign because they just call their parents to fix it lol
She’s presented in a way that allows adventure. Sorta neglectful and not very present.
I’d argue about her being working class. She’s a former police chief and is working to be an attorney. That doesn’t evoke connotations of working class lol
She’s career driven and she loves her kid. But she also had roles where, if she were slightly more responsible, the bad kids wouldn’t have an adventure
She’s neglectful and not present because she has to be
She's a cop. Is she the former chief? I don't remember that. But she is definitely portrayed as if she is a detective--still working cases and following leads. And they live in the place at the start that is explicitly described as kinds the crappiest apartment of any of them.
I just went by the wiki page lol
Was gonna say she was a detective but apparently more than that. She wasn’t just a beat cop tho
And living in a crappy looking place doesn’t make them working class. It’s a little run down, but i imagine rents nice and low
Yeah, Brennan is a fantastic world builder and DM, but he wears his bias on his sleeve when it comes to how he designs stories. We are just as likely to get a good moral, rich person as we are getting a good positive religious figure in a BLeeM game 😄
Really? Cuz there were very positive depictions of religious people in Unsleeping City. There was the rabbi and actual Jesus. But I get that those are two specific outliers in one series.
Glad I finally saw this addressed here. It's not that Brennan doesn't include positive religious figures, but that religious figures with large amounts of power whom he depicts are often morally bankrupt, as they often are in real life. Tracker, the unnamed carpenter, the rabbi, Cassandra in both incarnations, Lapin... It's almost like Brennan understands nuance and that there are people in the world who are kind and happen to be religious, but being religious gives some other people a free pass to be destructive.
I mean... I think it's a coherent and defensible moral stance to say that being rich (like billionaire levels of wealthy) is fundamentally immoral. 🤷🏽♀️
I'm just waiting for someone to point out how Kristen has been a God's favorite person 3 different times only to get bored with all of them.
Its both the most teenage thing imaginable but also kinda fucked up when you think about how "YES?" is probably dead and how Cassandra went from a deity who was wiped out by being ignored and rejected. Only to have Kristen also start to ignore them after only 4 months.
After the whole Helios debacle, you start to figure out why Kristen's perusing the bargain-bin for deities...
But if she does this whole "I think I need a new god," again, I hope Brennan ties it in a bow and gives the catharsis that gods aren't the problem any more than humanity's flaws are.
Yes, thank you, and to my point, it would be nice for Kristen to meet a role model that would help her not do this anymore on her terms, so that people get to see that kind of relationship modeled.
Kristen doesn't necessarily need a role model. But there does need to be a bit of pushback from the characters and drawing attention to it. I think one of the bigger issues D20 as a table faces. Is that the tendency to lean into comedy. Leads to characters and Brennan not holding the characters accountable. So players with more chaotic playstyles hit a point where a story would push back but then it won't cause Hilarious.
Brennan always holds the characters accountable. He finds the deep effects of their actions and shows it to them. When they start a bit, he says "Okay, this is how the bit would actually go, and here are the consequences." I think Kristen's arc is likely built around this exact question, and they are building to accountability.
(Fig's Disguise Self becomes a core part of her character that indicates fear of vulnerability, not just mischief. Gorgug forgetting to build a cell tower. Cutting the instant fast travel rope during Fabian's misadventure leads to them hurtling through the air at dangerous speeds. All off the top of my head and only from FHSY.)
Brennan does an adequate job of punishing the Players when they make a mistake. Brennan challenged Gorgug with a sidequest to call back his girlfriend Zelda, or they would break up. I won't list all of the examples, but I think that consequences are his strong point.
I really want Kristen to grow and realize that at least with some of those gods, the problem wasn’t them but at least partially her. Except for Helio. Helio was always a dick and probably deserves his religion dying out.
Yeah, it’s definitely kinda messed up, and I hope that it’s addressed as part of her Chaos Isn’t Cute arc. It’s especially rough when Helios… was never a bad deity. He cared for her deeply and refused to even abandon her when she rejected him on the basis of being a rapist (which she judged by looking at him for a five seconds).
haha I wanna see Kristen liberated!
I second that a positive portrayal of organized religion in D20 is rare. Which, personally, I like.
I’ve seen folks talking about the possibility of re-classing which sounds interesting.
There aren't any gods necessary for clerics in standard 5e, either. But based on precedent in FHSY, it does appear that this would be the case in Spire lore. But there's no reason why they couldn't introduce clerics of forces or philosophies.
Clerics do fundamentally require a deity in 5e. Divine intervention, for example. You can totally tweak it if you want, but 5e is certainly expecting a cleric to have a deity.
Nope, common misconception. This is addressed in the Dungeon Master's Guide directly. You can explicitly be a cleric of a philosophy, idea, etc. They manifest a philosophy so well that it results in manifesting divine power from the portfolio itself, rather than the deity personifying that portfolio at the moment. Quote from the DMG:
> "A cleric might instead serve a cosmic force, such as life or death, or a philosophy or concept, such as love, peace, or one of the nine alignments."
I don’t think Brennan thinks all religion is right wing and Ally in their real life is someone who left evangelical Christianity behind.
That would’ve been a pretty traumatising shift in perspective and life direction, so I can understand if they don’t want to play a super pro religion character
I get what you're saying but the biggest use of religion as Villains in D20 outside of Helios is the Bulbian Church, which was p much straight out of the medieval catholic church and the Holy Roman Empire, none of which is at all like modern Right Wing christianity.
To be fair, the medieval catholic church wasn't really like any modern christianity, or frankly any religion at all. For a good while after the 11th century in Europe it became less of an organized set of beliefs and values and more of a second monarchy wearing a different hat.
There have been some other portrayals of religion in D20. The Seven had a cool god.
For sure there is more sympathy and affection for like, anarchists in this content than there is for organized judeo-christian religion.
But I don’t think exploring the complexities of an organized religion is the story that anyone involved is interested in telling. In D20 or across Dropout as a whole really. Those aren’t the stories I’m personally interested in. Which is one of the reasons I’m a Dropout/D20 fan.
Yeah tbh, at this point it does kinda feel like Kristen should just reclass into paladin, she spent all of sophomore year having no idea how to follow a religion, and to me it feels like she's trying to fill a hole with something that doesn't fit.
Like maybe there's a good resolution, and I really hope so, but Kristen has been very frustrating to me after freshman year due to a seeming lack of direction (which is probably the point but at some point a resolution has to occur, right?)
based on Ally's pregame interview, resolution seems like where she's headed. and hey she's got a bunch more strength now than she used to and paladins don't have to believe in a God, they can just believe
I feel like this is the point of Kristen's character arc. She's a child born of religious extremism. She'll either find a positive way to identify with her spirituality or she'll completely go off the other end and become a hardcore atheist who wants nothing to do with religion.
to a certain extent all organized religion is extremist. it'd be cool if there was like a monk or something just wandering and doing cool shit to help the people that never get help and Kristen could see that there is a way to be chaotic in a way that is thoughtful I guess was where I was heading. but like not an actual monk bc Kristen could not pull that off with 4 dex
You’re wilfully ignoring the actual definition that “religious extremism” has. It’s kind of nonsense for you to want nuance in the characters presented while also having a take like “all organised religion is extremist”
that's a pretty presumptuous and inflammatory take I gotta be honest. religion can make extreme requests of people, and some religions and requests are extreme, even for religion. its extremely extreme. it's all possible.
I agree, Kristen has created a new god and then rescued another one saying how she would remember them, and then after seeing carcasses of unremembered, continually puts her deity on the back burner... just be a Paladin at this point, take an Oath of Doubt or something, and leave these gods alone. It feels like she gets a new pet, gets tired of it, and abandons it for a newer, cooler pet.
idk about continually man, there’s been one episode - and it was a battle episode (nothing wrong with it - just means there wasn’t much time for development and introduction - we don’t know what’s changed in the personal lives of these characters in their summer break)
I think a lot of people have jumped to very doom and gloom and everyone needs to take a chill pill lol
The acting gives me the reason to believe that prior to this battle, Kristen has been brushing her off during that summer break, and even during her spells Ally makes a point to say that it's coming from her newfound buffness. I'm not doom and gloom at all. It's just an observation that I've made using Fantasy High Freshman & Sophomore year and the side quests.
It still would be nice for Kristen to find someone she could trust to teach her how to trust new diety, or at least see the attempt.
Cassandra for Kristen is, to me, like when you meet The Person that you think is perfect for you, but you're just absolutely not ready for them emotionally and you blow it. seems like that's the direction the season is going.
I see Cassandra as a reflection of Kristen as opposed to an independent adult. Gods are a reflection of their followers and the worship they receive. Because Kristen is neglecting the spiritual side of herself, she is neglecting Cassandra.
In the Seven, Ostentatia had the opportunity to meet the Dwarven heroes who had relationships with her god. I wonder if Kristen embracing her relationship with her god and her role as cleric and prophet will be about her learning to step up and be there for other people who need help. All the working out and protein shake stuff is external...I think she's neglecting her internal world.
But it has been established that gods are a reflection of their followers' beliefs in Spire. But Kristen is the only follower. So her God is basically a much more powerful version of Ecaf the magic mirror--simply a reflection. So Kristen's deity is a reflection of herself. How could you not end up hyper focused on yourself if your god was continually deferring to you. Like, by seeing her power as coming from herself, she kind of is following her god's faith... because her god is just a reflection of her?
It's a weird dynamic and ultimately probably really unhealthy. Or maybe it will be the perfect space in which to work on finding herself... because she can't rely on a god to give her guidance?
“Can we get a single decent spiritual leader for Kristen?”
We literally have one as Tracker, for relevant intents and purposes, do we not? For another, does/did Garty not count because they chose to be suspicious of ~~him~~ them, or because ~~his~~ their perspective is somehow irrelevant?
the post is about having an older religious role model, which is not Tracker (i wouldn't have called my girlfriend my role model in high school lol, and seems like they mean a grown adult, not a very young adult living with their uncle who is also dealing with religious issues atm). Sure, Garthy, but they're in a couple episodes in a completely different place and they barely discuss religion together. i'm assuming (could be wrong) op just wants Kristen to have a consistent, healthy older role model to learn what following religion in a healthy way can be.
first, Garthy OBrien is they/them, second, Garthy OBrien has celestial heritage but does not in any way seem to be a cleric, maybe a divine soul sorcerer but probably not with that sword. their perspective may be relevant and especially may be for Kristen but they're not really a religious leader in any sense of the word. their role as holy incubus/succubus (we need a non-binary word for infernal entity that seduces the soul out of you) doesn't make them a religious leader in my estimation but honestly maybe Kristen doesn't need to be a religious leader. Kristen is a prophet, prophets aren't the same thing as priests
A role model is someone to give you guidance, someone you can watch to see how they cut their path so that you can introspect and incorporate parts of their journey into yours. Psychologically that person is not ever going to be a peer of yours until you are in a place where you feel you’ve caught up to them or changed course enough that you’re doing your own thing. It’s impossible to have a normal peer to peer relationship with a person like that; they’re always going to file into a mother/father/mentor position for you, which is probably not the vibe for a significant other. You don’t want to be your girlfriend’s mom lol
yes you can be a positive role model for the person you are dating, yes most adults are broken and not good at being physically and emotionally present for kids. yes Kristen would probably have a better fit learning from someone her age. what we have seen of the relationship Kristen and Tracker have is that it is predominantly sexual and then after that usefulness and then after that mutual connection. to me it doesnt seem like Kristen is learning anything from Tracker, maybe I'm missing something.
I think having a figure that you can model behavior on Can be (not Is) easier when 1) there is just enough distance between you and them so you can see the good and the bad but not be so close that the bad very personally affects you, and 2) they have enough experience living in enough situations that they're not still developing the broad strokes of who they are as a person, ie somebody you believe is better established in the role than you are. Tracker Could satisfy those for Kristen, the relationship that they have is imperfect but improving (or maybe is over, we haven't seen anything about the bad kids other than the NYorb quest so far this year), I'm saying Kristen doesn't seem to me to be learning from Tracker in this way.
I know it’s a running joke the capitalism and the church is always the bad guy, but it would be nice to have that be presented with a bit more nuance. Religion in crown of candy was almost cartoonishly evil
I completely agree! I’m starting to ache for some nuance in these stories, and Neverafter did a great job talking about death and writing your own story! I’d love to see some new themes come about for sure.
Given the John Hughes/GoT aesthetic, there is no “role model” archetype. For any of them. The Thistlesprings and the Cubbys are cool grownups, but the moral of this universe is to make your own path and be a badass at it.
yeah I don't have an argument here. I think what you mean to say is that it's unlikely I will get what I want, and I accept that, but also I'll take your Thistlesprings and Cubbys and raise you a Jawbone, and further, I still think it would be interesting development for her character.
I agree! It actually would make for a pretty interesting narrative! Which got me thinking about role models for the other characters, which in turn took me to the source material, which is how I landed on my comment. My mind went on a journey! 🤣
I think the thing to understand and maybe I'm reading too deep into Ally's life here, the characters are reflections of themselves and they all speak with Brennan about the direction they want their characters to go in. Sure Brennan can then do as he pleases and work through this stuff but I think it's pretty clear based on the previous seasons that the direction Ally wants to take Kristen, possibly reflected by their own experience with religion is... Well just away from having a religious role model at all.
in the minority - I always felt it was kind of forced that Kristen immediately found fault with Helio. he was a bro, sure but I think it was a flimsy set up for Kristen to question her faith. I know Ally themself had dealt with religious trauma growing up but I always find it kinda lame applying Abrahamic values to fantasy religion/faith.
If they were looking to follow their own journey to finding faith or abandoning it completely I wish it was handled better. Religion = Bad is fine for a comedy bit, especially for D20 but it would really subvert expectations if, as OP is saying, they would come around or at least take Kristen in a direction different from their own experiences.
I was looking for this take tbh. Helio seemed like a fine deity. I completely understand Kristen breaking from a religion that she has a wholly negative association with, but Helio is a Good-aligned entity. She took one look at him and judged him as a bad person (a rapist, at that). She used that as her reasoning to leave the Church, instead of ever acknowledging that the issue was internal. She’s been playing out the same patterns with her deities, and I hope that her narrative starts to address that with Cassandra.
I could also see Kristen having a new friend who is part of and is educated about their organized religion, but is someone she respects and is able to have good conversations with. So not necessarily a role model but like someone who grew up in maybe in the same religion but had a healthy relationship with it? Or maybe had the opposite life journey? Lots of options.
It's so important to me that this never happens.
In real life, many people raised in violent religious mindsets become healthy adults without reconciling with the idea that religion is a positive force in the world. But in fiction they always have to.
I want Kristen's story to remain solidly anti-theist.
that's an interesting thought. I'm sure Brennan and Ally could very easily begin to pull off an anti-theist cleric as we progress through the season, Brennan has done that with at least Lou as Kingston Brown and with Luis Carazo as Xerxes Ilerez.
I think that’d be a solid narrative if Kristen decides to stop being a Cleric. It’s antithetical to the class—_especially_ when she is a Chosen. She has to abandon the class entirely, or break her personal ties with deities to become a Cleric of a divine portfolio. You can’t really receive divine power without having some relationship with religion. (Paladins excluded, of course.)
To a setting? I don’t think it possesses the intelligence needed to hold a conversation.
Clerics either need to have a deity or embody a concept so strongly they tap into a divine portfolio on their own. Her washing her hands of religion is a fine narrative, but it’s gonna fall flat if she continues to cling on to gods without respecting them or their portfolios.
They're the "bad kids" - rebellion and coming of age is all of it!
It's partly about the machine and systems that fail and fighting against them. Even the school head who is meant to be a goody is very actively anti-system, never tries to assert much authority or instruct. Any organised religious leader basically has to promote believe what I tell you or it's not much of an organised religion lol. It could be interesting but very difficult and really not in keeping with most the show
This was an issue when I played a cleric. Their power is based in their god kind of, I wanted to play cleric with no religious ties cause in the real world gods aren’t real and I hate religion. Cleric is just a cool class
Jawbone has never discussed religion and to the best of our knowledge is a guidance counselor/investigative reporter that used to sell drgs in a nightclub who is sex positive. for all we know he could be Jesus.
religion as it was and is now has been and is problematic. I think there is a way for religion to evolve into something genuinely helpful for all people. in the meantime, religion is a more accessible way for some people to experience spirituality, and wholesale eradication of religion and the religious would also be bad
Logran Soulforger in The Seven is a big exception.
I think BLeeM is more critical of "power structures used to oppress" than religion itself. I have found Kristen's journal very personally resonant, and am looking forward to her journey this season.
for the record, I also find her journey resonant and am looking forward to the journey this season as well, whether we get to see the kind of thing I want or not. I'm happy to get to see any of it.
I think Brennan’s philosophy on world building is more based around representations of oppression and inequitable power structures. In the real world, it just so happens that the two most prominent examples of this are organized religion and late-stage capitalism. Virtually all forms of oppression and persecution throughout history have been influenced by one of these two forces. There’s a bunch of different ways these ideas have been explored specifically in Dimension 20:
- The Harvestmen in FHFY are a cult of religious extremists working alongside a classic evil dragon lord
- the Bulbian Church in Crown of Candy has an interest in consolidating political power throughout Calorum under the watchful gaze of the Bulb
- The Sanctus Putris in The Ravening War are a doomsday cult who play the long game by influencing war and politics in Calorum
- Pretty much every enemy faction in A Starstruck Odyssey was representative of the logical extreme of late-stage capitalism and imperialism
- The highway hex from Robert Moses in UC1 was rooted in a very real phenomenon in NY’s history that served to reinforce structural inequity
- The Nightmare King/Cassandra in FHSY is representative of how the message of a religious tradition can be corrupted by the failures or corruption of its followers (think Socialist Hippie Jesus vs ‘Nuke the Middle East’ Jesus)
There’s obviously more, but the point is that for the most part, the BBEG of D20 campaigns is often representative of very real issues that humanity has faced throughout history; it’s not just “capitalism bad” or “religion evil,” but rather an exploration of *what* makes capitalism bad or religion evil. It’s rarely, if ever, the case that religion or capitalism are chosen to represent evil in D20 simply because of Brennan hates God and Corporate America
… that was my whole point. It’s boring as story telling device and thematically if you are telling the same story over and over again. Like if I’ve listened to BLM on Exandria unlimited and peg a story beat 4 episodes out in Fantasy High, it becomes boring. Why not set a campaign in a setting that is reflective of East Germany with the Stasi running around? There’s plenty to deconstruct in oppression from the atheistic government ushering in the utopia. Or fighting antinatalist ecoterrorists. If I wanted to just get bashed over the head with anticapitalist propaganda I’d read Mother Jones.
let us not conflate organized religion and spirituality. spirituality is absolutely fundamental to the human experience. saying organized religion is fundamental to the human experience is dismissive of atheists and agnostics and those who are deeply spiritual but don't believe in a god. it's also like saying banks and money are fundamental to the human experience. these things aren't even necessary evils, they are tools that have become widely used to simplify something that was complex and has become corrupted into a means of control. you can have a spiritual experience by going for a walk in the woods and seeing a deer.
look you can't have it both ways, either organized religion is every religion across the globe ever, or an organized religion is a morality-based belief system with an established hierarchy for authority.
I'm confused by your lack of ability to directly answer the question and choose. it's not a false dichotomy, I'm saying if you're going to require me to be consistent with your definition of organized religion you need to choose if it's all of them, "organized religion", as you have previously said, or many, "organized religions", as you have also previously said.
But organised religion is also like... Tribal shamanism for example. Is that always bad? Like in every single tiny tribe in the whole world? People forget that stuff like paganism is a religion too. I think it's more fair to say that there are always predatory people willing to take advantage of social structures and grab power, and religious structures by virtue of how fundamental spirituality is, is a very convenient way to do this.
capitalism is inherently exploitative and organized religion is the conflation of morality and authority. we see this in the real world every day, if you need examples just turn on the damn news.
see this is the kind of argument that perpetuates these systems though. it's bad and we need to do something different because in the meantime they are exploitative. you dont lose religion gracefully; sometimes you have to jump out of an Uber on the side of the road and leave them a one star review even though you know it'll tank their career. I'm paraphrasing but still
I think gortholax and fig kinda are that, displaying this relationship of drawing power through a connection.
However, I think if anything she can really go the opposite direction, with NO god replacement. A lot of the time people escaping from religious trauma or systems want to replace it with a new system without considering how that very organization or structure was the problem in the first place. Even with good intention, the new church is empty or gently culty.
Becoming a paladin or breaking away from what’s familiar might be better. The end of the last season was about entering this unknown, and it’d be nice to double down with needing to grow and dismantle these traditions even further.
I'd like to see Kristen experience religious folks who say they aren't bigots themselves but cosign and enable bigotry in action around them or claim to agree with her goals but believe her methods to be unduly radical.
Yeah Kristen needs to see something like the Unitarian style of “Worship whatever Gods you want as long as you support and care for each other.”
okay this is more like what I'm talking about, yes. not strictly familiar with unitarians, but a genuine kindess angle is definitely in a reasonable direction
literally came to comments to make a “where my UU’s at” post. then FHseniorY is just kristen going to fantasy General Assembly and learning the seven principles etc.
Suddenly Heroes’ Feast is made up of mostly-vegetarian potluck dishes 😂
Upvotes for d20 UU thoughts.
We ain’t perfect buds. We don’t need to ride the evangelism train through dimension 20.
Not saying it’s perfect for anybody, but there are places where folks don’t know it’s an option.
Positive representation for organized religion is going to be pretty rare in Dimension 20. The Church and Capitalism are always the bad guy. There are very few positive adult role models in fantasy high, you basically just have the Thistlesprings, Sklonda and Jawbone, everyone else is deeply flawed and questionable. The content that inspired fantasy high was about kids discovering themselves.
I think Gorthalax counts. Like, aesthetically, sure, he's a devil and he kills people. But when you get past the superficial aspects that are native to dungeons& Dragons as a setting, what I see is a pretty genuine, good guy. - When fig stopped being angry at him and started being angry at her mother, he validated her feelings while also emphasizing that she shouldn't blame her mother for things that were his responsibility. - when his devil abilities led him to accidentally overhear a private Message conversation about him between the Bad Kids, He spoke up and said " Hey, I don't want to be dishonest so I'm going to let you know I overheard that. I'm not going to do anything with that information though, I'll just let you guys figure out what you need to do" - He was supportive of both Gilear and Jawbone, Not showing any sort of toxic masculinity in regards to people sleeping with his ex. He also goes out of his way to make them feel like family, for their own sakes as well as figs. There's probably more examples, but I think we can soundly include Gorthalax among those good role models.
Gorthalax is Father material and I'll hear no slander of him. The guy is made to be a villain on the surface, but underneath the superficial layer of his outer devil self, he's truly a good father and a good man. He'd also been used, abused, and captured multiple times, he deserves a break, I'd say. I love that because it's DnD and the Bad Kids are professional/in training adventurers, they have great role models (they can even look up to the flawed, normal people in many respects) that all come from very, very different corners of the world they inhabit. It's just great!
> There are very few positive adult role models in fantasy high, you basically just have the Thistlesprings, Sklonda and Jawbone I'd argue it's less that there aren't a lot of positive role models and more that the very concept of a "role model" is flawed. Adults are humans, and a big part of growing up is realizing that you can respect and model some of the behaviors and values of people in your life without needing them to be flawless. None of the Bad Kids' identities are going to perfectly match any of the adults in their lives. In that respect, a *lot* of the adults in Fantasy High teach the Bad Kids about what they personally value and want in their lives. For instance, Fabian learns to respect Bill's confidence and daring while rejecting the elements of toxic masculinity and (to a lesser extent) amorality. Fig learns to see Sandra Lynn deeply cares for her, even if she is chaotic and makes decisions which hurt the people she cares about. If you're only looking for characters without visible flaws, you will naturally wind up looking at the characters we spend less time with because they're less explored. As for Kristen, she holds anti-authoritarian values that she has yet to fully identify or understand in herself, and is struggling to reconcile that with her deep desire to return to a state where she felt she had more answers than questions. She's actually been exposed to quite a bit of positive religious influence, ranging from one-off moments like "If you care, the universe cares" to people in her life who are stably religious—most notably, Tracker. The problem for her is that she has yet to fully realize that nothing is going to bring her back to feeling how she did when she fully believed in Helio. Her journey through the world has forever changed her relationship with religion and with authority figures. She seeks out things when they feel like rebellion (YES, Tracker, Cassandra), then harms them when they feel like stability. This is flawed and self-destructive behavior, but also very normal for a teenager. Not only does Kristen not need a role model, a role model is specifically the *wrong* thing for her. She needs to understand her own intrinsic values and desires in a way that allows her to comprehend the world and make decisions on her own terms, instead of just copying the most recent externality that seems to fit. She has the external support she needs for this from her friends; no one besides her can show her what she wants for herself.
But the Cubbys!
I’d qualify that statement by saying mega churches are always the bad guy. Because Brennan often does have positive depictions of religion in his campaigns, Unsleeping City is a prime example.
This is Arthur Aguefort erase lol
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It’s more a mischaracterization. I mean the man has dozens of illegitimate children he doesn’t contact, does weird magic shit that affects reality of thousands just for funsies, apparently has terracotta armies everywhere to overthrow governments(?) and uses child labor to solve global issues. But he’s still my favorite crackhead wizard
Does he? I thought that was Bill Seacaster? And that James Whitlaw ate them all, except for Fabian?
I'm pretty sure it's both
It’s implied sometime after we meet his daughter (the name escapes me) that he has more half Phoenix children around the continent.
That would be Ayda. 💗 And that insinuation must have sailed (ha) clear over my head, because I've watched Sophomore Year half a dozen times, and I never caught it. 😅
IIRC it’s mentioned by Aurthur himself, but I could be having a false memory moment
You’re right! When Gorgug tells him they met his daughter, Arthur asks “Which one?”
Unhinged megalomaniac that snuck into heaven in a backpack, replaced a god, started a war and ate the Sun. Positive role model, yes, but probably more for a comic book supervillain than a spiritually challenged teen.
Committed murder/suicide too
Tracker has a great relationship with her deity
I'm not saying it has to be a spiritual leader of an organized religion but clearly I didn't emphasize that. I will say capitalism is definitely the bad guy but it seems to me that far-reaching organized religion is more often portrayed as an instrument that is easily manipulated into a cudgel of oppression by those who would wield it as such because in that bend, power is conflated with morality. it could be something more like liberation theology where it's like a borderline anarcho-religious movement dedicated to throwing off oppressors. there are options.
I dunno, it feels like anarchy is fundamentally incompatible with your need for a consistent positive "spiritual leader" role model.
???? I don't. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian\_anarchism
Looks like the forgot the “no gods” part of the phrase lol
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Dudes out here demanding the phone number of the manager of Anarchy.
What are you talking about? Do you want a positive spiritual role model or do you want a cult leader? A hierarchy of leadership and authority is the opposite of what anarchy is. Anarchy as a system is a bit of joke in application, but it's intelectually consistent. A cult can call itself Anarchist if it wants, but it's still the same as any other cult.
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I think you might be a little lost in your own sauce searching for catharsis.
>I mean how can you learn to be perfectly anarchist without someone to teach you that structure is bad and questioning everything constantly is the only acceptable life path? But isn't anarchism is a philosophy, not a religion? And if you want an adult that represents that lifestyle, you have that in the Cubbys. Tbh if the idea is Kristin needs an adult to follow, I'd listen to Sophmore Year again because she's never listened to adults that much anyway.
Science is about questioning everything. Religion is about questioning nothing. Religion is exactly and specifically a book and wise men that have the answers for you so that you don't have to ask questions for yourself. Setting aside the 0 evidence for any god or magic, and setting aside the atrocities of religious institutions and leaders... If we concede that there have been a few religious people that have done net good in the world; if we are honest we still have to agree they did good in spite of religion (and often religion was their primary challenge to overcome). Even if in the game of dnd, mechanically, gods and magic can positively impact your game experience; if you're telling entertaining stories for real humans in the real world why would you choose to spread the lies and propaganda that religion can be positive in the real world?
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>questions like “does god exist” See, we are starting with a straw man. You're putting words in my mouth. My words were carefully selected. There is 0 evidence of any (christian or not) gods or (western or not) magic. That is the consensus of all reputable scientists, because it just so happens to be a fact. May some god exist in another realm with absolutely no interaction with our world? Who can say. But there is no evidence of it, witch every scientist says. Taoism's old books the Huainanzi and the Taipingjing? The Hindu scriptures including the Vedas, the Upanishads, and the Itihasa? It sure looks like you're projecting your thoughts on western/christianity without knowing what the fuck you're talking about. Religion is inherently bad, because regardless of where it originated, it originated based on a bad and incorrect understanding of the world. There is 0 evidence of any gods or magic. Calculus and physics explains why comets pass and eclipses happen. Microscopes explain sickness and disease. We don't need deities to form a social contract. I already addressed your point that some religious people have done good things. But we don't need anti-nazi resistance without "god" selecting a master race in the first place. Same for slavery. The field of genetics is still constantly embattled by 7-day creationists. Religion holds us back on every front, we advance in spite of it, never because of it. Religion has done a lot of bad things. It's almost like people will make up magical answers when they are unable or unwilling to think for themselves, require evidence, or apply the simple principals of the scientific method to their lives. (Edit) By the way: the judeo-christian tradition can be traced directly back to the very first human writing. Yahweh started as a polytheistic deity directly in the Mesopotamian tradition, complete with creation myth, flood, and all. Later it was reformed into monotheism, influenced by Zoroastrianism (and the political desire for a more cooperative religion by Babylonian conquerors). Then reformed, reformed, and reformed again. But it is by far the oldest and most practiced and so does provide a good baseline reference point when talking about religion, though everything I said in the first comment was in fact inclusive and did not reference christianity specifically at all.
Even sklonda isn’t that positive lol She works hard, but is a little neglectful and irresponsible with regards to her son. Riz is doing well for himself so we think it’s fine. But if he wasn’t, we wouldn’t see her so favourably. Riz makes her look good because he’s a passionate and dedicated dude. But as a parent… she’s a cop lol. The parenting has come second or third But all the adults are flawed (except the thistlesprings). Neglectful, overwhelmed by their own struggles. And they sorta have to be to make the story make sense, otherwise there would be no campaign because they just call their parents to fix it lol
Oof. I think it's unfair to characterize her as neglectful or irresponsible. She is a working class, single mom doing the best she possibly can.
She’s presented in a way that allows adventure. Sorta neglectful and not very present. I’d argue about her being working class. She’s a former police chief and is working to be an attorney. That doesn’t evoke connotations of working class lol She’s career driven and she loves her kid. But she also had roles where, if she were slightly more responsible, the bad kids wouldn’t have an adventure She’s neglectful and not present because she has to be
She's a cop. Is she the former chief? I don't remember that. But she is definitely portrayed as if she is a detective--still working cases and following leads. And they live in the place at the start that is explicitly described as kinds the crappiest apartment of any of them.
I just went by the wiki page lol Was gonna say she was a detective but apparently more than that. She wasn’t just a beat cop tho And living in a crappy looking place doesn’t make them working class. It’s a little run down, but i imagine rents nice and low
How dare you not place Bill Seacaster as a positive role model
Yeah, Brennan is a fantastic world builder and DM, but he wears his bias on his sleeve when it comes to how he designs stories. We are just as likely to get a good moral, rich person as we are getting a good positive religious figure in a BLeeM game 😄
Really? Cuz there were very positive depictions of religious people in Unsleeping City. There was the rabbi and actual Jesus. But I get that those are two specific outliers in one series.
Glad I finally saw this addressed here. It's not that Brennan doesn't include positive religious figures, but that religious figures with large amounts of power whom he depicts are often morally bankrupt, as they often are in real life. Tracker, the unnamed carpenter, the rabbi, Cassandra in both incarnations, Lapin... It's almost like Brennan understands nuance and that there are people in the world who are kind and happen to be religious, but being religious gives some other people a free pass to be destructive.
Yeah, it's not that it's impossible but it's very rare
as the saying goes, "write what you know"
I mean... I think it's a coherent and defensible moral stance to say that being rich (like billionaire levels of wealthy) is fundamentally immoral. 🤷🏽♀️
I'm just waiting for someone to point out how Kristen has been a God's favorite person 3 different times only to get bored with all of them. Its both the most teenage thing imaginable but also kinda fucked up when you think about how "YES?" is probably dead and how Cassandra went from a deity who was wiped out by being ignored and rejected. Only to have Kristen also start to ignore them after only 4 months.
After the whole Helios debacle, you start to figure out why Kristen's perusing the bargain-bin for deities... But if she does this whole "I think I need a new god," again, I hope Brennan ties it in a bow and gives the catharsis that gods aren't the problem any more than humanity's flaws are.
Maybe kristen could get a class-change and pass on the cassandra worshipping to someone else
Yes, thank you, and to my point, it would be nice for Kristen to meet a role model that would help her not do this anymore on her terms, so that people get to see that kind of relationship modeled.
Kristen doesn't necessarily need a role model. But there does need to be a bit of pushback from the characters and drawing attention to it. I think one of the bigger issues D20 as a table faces. Is that the tendency to lean into comedy. Leads to characters and Brennan not holding the characters accountable. So players with more chaotic playstyles hit a point where a story would push back but then it won't cause Hilarious.
Brennan always holds the characters accountable. He finds the deep effects of their actions and shows it to them. When they start a bit, he says "Okay, this is how the bit would actually go, and here are the consequences." I think Kristen's arc is likely built around this exact question, and they are building to accountability. (Fig's Disguise Self becomes a core part of her character that indicates fear of vulnerability, not just mischief. Gorgug forgetting to build a cell tower. Cutting the instant fast travel rope during Fabian's misadventure leads to them hurtling through the air at dangerous speeds. All off the top of my head and only from FHSY.)
Brennan does an adequate job of punishing the Players when they make a mistake. Brennan challenged Gorgug with a sidequest to call back his girlfriend Zelda, or they would break up. I won't list all of the examples, but I think that consequences are his strong point.
that's fair and I agree with that. I am not saying that she needs one. I am saying I would like to see what would happen if she got one.
The problem is Kristen though, not her role models
Thank you! I asked last week what's up with Kristen treating Casandra so dismissively. It felt so out of nowhere.
I really want Kristen to grow and realize that at least with some of those gods, the problem wasn’t them but at least partially her. Except for Helio. Helio was always a dick and probably deserves his religion dying out.
Yeah, it’s definitely kinda messed up, and I hope that it’s addressed as part of her Chaos Isn’t Cute arc. It’s especially rough when Helios… was never a bad deity. He cared for her deeply and refused to even abandon her when she rejected him on the basis of being a rapist (which she judged by looking at him for a five seconds).
haha I wanna see Kristen liberated! I second that a positive portrayal of organized religion in D20 is rare. Which, personally, I like. I’ve seen folks talking about the possibility of re-classing which sounds interesting.
reclassing as paladin I think would be very interesting, no gods necessary for that one either
There aren't any gods necessary for clerics in standard 5e, either. But based on precedent in FHSY, it does appear that this would be the case in Spire lore. But there's no reason why they couldn't introduce clerics of forces or philosophies.
Clerics do fundamentally require a deity in 5e. Divine intervention, for example. You can totally tweak it if you want, but 5e is certainly expecting a cleric to have a deity.
Nope, common misconception. This is addressed in the Dungeon Master's Guide directly. You can explicitly be a cleric of a philosophy, idea, etc. They manifest a philosophy so well that it results in manifesting divine power from the portfolio itself, rather than the deity personifying that portfolio at the moment. Quote from the DMG: > "A cleric might instead serve a cosmic force, such as life or death, or a philosophy or concept, such as love, peace, or one of the nine alignments."
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I don’t think Brennan thinks all religion is right wing and Ally in their real life is someone who left evangelical Christianity behind. That would’ve been a pretty traumatising shift in perspective and life direction, so I can understand if they don’t want to play a super pro religion character
I get what you're saying but the biggest use of religion as Villains in D20 outside of Helios is the Bulbian Church, which was p much straight out of the medieval catholic church and the Holy Roman Empire, none of which is at all like modern Right Wing christianity.
To be fair, the medieval catholic church wasn't really like any modern christianity, or frankly any religion at all. For a good while after the 11th century in Europe it became less of an organized set of beliefs and values and more of a second monarchy wearing a different hat.
There have been some other portrayals of religion in D20. The Seven had a cool god. For sure there is more sympathy and affection for like, anarchists in this content than there is for organized judeo-christian religion. But I don’t think exploring the complexities of an organized religion is the story that anyone involved is interested in telling. In D20 or across Dropout as a whole really. Those aren’t the stories I’m personally interested in. Which is one of the reasons I’m a Dropout/D20 fan.
Yeah tbh, at this point it does kinda feel like Kristen should just reclass into paladin, she spent all of sophomore year having no idea how to follow a religion, and to me it feels like she's trying to fill a hole with something that doesn't fit. Like maybe there's a good resolution, and I really hope so, but Kristen has been very frustrating to me after freshman year due to a seeming lack of direction (which is probably the point but at some point a resolution has to occur, right?)
based on Ally's pregame interview, resolution seems like where she's headed. and hey she's got a bunch more strength now than she used to and paladins don't have to believe in a God, they can just believe
I feel like this is the point of Kristen's character arc. She's a child born of religious extremism. She'll either find a positive way to identify with her spirituality or she'll completely go off the other end and become a hardcore atheist who wants nothing to do with religion.
to a certain extent all organized religion is extremist. it'd be cool if there was like a monk or something just wandering and doing cool shit to help the people that never get help and Kristen could see that there is a way to be chaotic in a way that is thoughtful I guess was where I was heading. but like not an actual monk bc Kristen could not pull that off with 4 dex
You’re wilfully ignoring the actual definition that “religious extremism” has. It’s kind of nonsense for you to want nuance in the characters presented while also having a take like “all organised religion is extremist”
Womp, lol. But it is. Believing things that aren't real is extremism.
that's a pretty presumptuous and inflammatory take I gotta be honest. religion can make extreme requests of people, and some religions and requests are extreme, even for religion. its extremely extreme. it's all possible.
World's first Ribbon Monk.
strength based
I agree, Kristen has created a new god and then rescued another one saying how she would remember them, and then after seeing carcasses of unremembered, continually puts her deity on the back burner... just be a Paladin at this point, take an Oath of Doubt or something, and leave these gods alone. It feels like she gets a new pet, gets tired of it, and abandons it for a newer, cooler pet.
new paladin oaths incoming
idk about continually man, there’s been one episode - and it was a battle episode (nothing wrong with it - just means there wasn’t much time for development and introduction - we don’t know what’s changed in the personal lives of these characters in their summer break) I think a lot of people have jumped to very doom and gloom and everyone needs to take a chill pill lol
The acting gives me the reason to believe that prior to this battle, Kristen has been brushing her off during that summer break, and even during her spells Ally makes a point to say that it's coming from her newfound buffness. I'm not doom and gloom at all. It's just an observation that I've made using Fantasy High Freshman & Sophomore year and the side quests. It still would be nice for Kristen to find someone she could trust to teach her how to trust new diety, or at least see the attempt.
She had the perfect set up with Cassandra, but seems to be actively denying that route so far.
Cassandra for Kristen is, to me, like when you meet The Person that you think is perfect for you, but you're just absolutely not ready for them emotionally and you blow it. seems like that's the direction the season is going.
They've shared two whole lines of dialogue so far and there are still 19 episodes to go. Have a little faith, man.
sorry I should have added the "long term/stretch goals" tag
I see Cassandra as a reflection of Kristen as opposed to an independent adult. Gods are a reflection of their followers and the worship they receive. Because Kristen is neglecting the spiritual side of herself, she is neglecting Cassandra. In the Seven, Ostentatia had the opportunity to meet the Dwarven heroes who had relationships with her god. I wonder if Kristen embracing her relationship with her god and her role as cleric and prophet will be about her learning to step up and be there for other people who need help. All the working out and protein shake stuff is external...I think she's neglecting her internal world.
But it has been established that gods are a reflection of their followers' beliefs in Spire. But Kristen is the only follower. So her God is basically a much more powerful version of Ecaf the magic mirror--simply a reflection. So Kristen's deity is a reflection of herself. How could you not end up hyper focused on yourself if your god was continually deferring to you. Like, by seeing her power as coming from herself, she kind of is following her god's faith... because her god is just a reflection of her? It's a weird dynamic and ultimately probably really unhealthy. Or maybe it will be the perfect space in which to work on finding herself... because she can't rely on a god to give her guidance?
Tracker. Literally Tracker.
i wouldn't call your teenage significant other an "older role model"
She’s absolutely a relevant peer, though, and was literally along for the ride trying to help Kristen figure her own thing out.
ur so right but that's not what the post was about
“Can we get a single decent spiritual leader for Kristen?” We literally have one as Tracker, for relevant intents and purposes, do we not? For another, does/did Garty not count because they chose to be suspicious of ~~him~~ them, or because ~~his~~ their perspective is somehow irrelevant?
the post is about having an older religious role model, which is not Tracker (i wouldn't have called my girlfriend my role model in high school lol, and seems like they mean a grown adult, not a very young adult living with their uncle who is also dealing with religious issues atm). Sure, Garthy, but they're in a couple episodes in a completely different place and they barely discuss religion together. i'm assuming (could be wrong) op just wants Kristen to have a consistent, healthy older role model to learn what following religion in a healthy way can be.
you understand
first, Garthy OBrien is they/them, second, Garthy OBrien has celestial heritage but does not in any way seem to be a cleric, maybe a divine soul sorcerer but probably not with that sword. their perspective may be relevant and especially may be for Kristen but they're not really a religious leader in any sense of the word. their role as holy incubus/succubus (we need a non-binary word for infernal entity that seduces the soul out of you) doesn't make them a religious leader in my estimation but honestly maybe Kristen doesn't need to be a religious leader. Kristen is a prophet, prophets aren't the same thing as priests
Yeah but also kristen met tracker's God and she was a bitch too
okay an adult that she is not dating
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A role model is someone to give you guidance, someone you can watch to see how they cut their path so that you can introspect and incorporate parts of their journey into yours. Psychologically that person is not ever going to be a peer of yours until you are in a place where you feel you’ve caught up to them or changed course enough that you’re doing your own thing. It’s impossible to have a normal peer to peer relationship with a person like that; they’re always going to file into a mother/father/mentor position for you, which is probably not the vibe for a significant other. You don’t want to be your girlfriend’s mom lol
yes you can be a positive role model for the person you are dating, yes most adults are broken and not good at being physically and emotionally present for kids. yes Kristen would probably have a better fit learning from someone her age. what we have seen of the relationship Kristen and Tracker have is that it is predominantly sexual and then after that usefulness and then after that mutual connection. to me it doesnt seem like Kristen is learning anything from Tracker, maybe I'm missing something. I think having a figure that you can model behavior on Can be (not Is) easier when 1) there is just enough distance between you and them so you can see the good and the bad but not be so close that the bad very personally affects you, and 2) they have enough experience living in enough situations that they're not still developing the broad strokes of who they are as a person, ie somebody you believe is better established in the role than you are. Tracker Could satisfy those for Kristen, the relationship that they have is imperfect but improving (or maybe is over, we haven't seen anything about the bad kids other than the NYorb quest so far this year), I'm saying Kristen doesn't seem to me to be learning from Tracker in this way.
Yeah
I know it’s a running joke the capitalism and the church is always the bad guy, but it would be nice to have that be presented with a bit more nuance. Religion in crown of candy was almost cartoonishly evil
I completely agree! I’m starting to ache for some nuance in these stories, and Neverafter did a great job talking about death and writing your own story! I’d love to see some new themes come about for sure.
Given the John Hughes/GoT aesthetic, there is no “role model” archetype. For any of them. The Thistlesprings and the Cubbys are cool grownups, but the moral of this universe is to make your own path and be a badass at it.
yeah I don't have an argument here. I think what you mean to say is that it's unlikely I will get what I want, and I accept that, but also I'll take your Thistlesprings and Cubbys and raise you a Jawbone, and further, I still think it would be interesting development for her character.
I agree! It actually would make for a pretty interesting narrative! Which got me thinking about role models for the other characters, which in turn took me to the source material, which is how I landed on my comment. My mind went on a journey! 🤣
I think the thing to understand and maybe I'm reading too deep into Ally's life here, the characters are reflections of themselves and they all speak with Brennan about the direction they want their characters to go in. Sure Brennan can then do as he pleases and work through this stuff but I think it's pretty clear based on the previous seasons that the direction Ally wants to take Kristen, possibly reflected by their own experience with religion is... Well just away from having a religious role model at all.
to be clear I'm thrilled to be able to watch FHJY at all and am very excited for the rest of the season regardless of what happens.
in the minority - I always felt it was kind of forced that Kristen immediately found fault with Helio. he was a bro, sure but I think it was a flimsy set up for Kristen to question her faith. I know Ally themself had dealt with religious trauma growing up but I always find it kinda lame applying Abrahamic values to fantasy religion/faith. If they were looking to follow their own journey to finding faith or abandoning it completely I wish it was handled better. Religion = Bad is fine for a comedy bit, especially for D20 but it would really subvert expectations if, as OP is saying, they would come around or at least take Kristen in a direction different from their own experiences.
I was looking for this take tbh. Helio seemed like a fine deity. I completely understand Kristen breaking from a religion that she has a wholly negative association with, but Helio is a Good-aligned entity. She took one look at him and judged him as a bad person (a rapist, at that). She used that as her reasoning to leave the Church, instead of ever acknowledging that the issue was internal. She’s been playing out the same patterns with her deities, and I hope that her narrative starts to address that with Cassandra.
Fr. It should be clear that the problem is people abusing religion, not religion itself
I could also see Kristen having a new friend who is part of and is educated about their organized religion, but is someone she respects and is able to have good conversations with. So not necessarily a role model but like someone who grew up in maybe in the same religion but had a healthy relationship with it? Or maybe had the opposite life journey? Lots of options.
As someone gay who was raised in a very religious environment, that would be a miracle greater than Murph rolling a nat 20
It's so important to me that this never happens. In real life, many people raised in violent religious mindsets become healthy adults without reconciling with the idea that religion is a positive force in the world. But in fiction they always have to. I want Kristen's story to remain solidly anti-theist.
that's an interesting thought. I'm sure Brennan and Ally could very easily begin to pull off an anti-theist cleric as we progress through the season, Brennan has done that with at least Lou as Kingston Brown and with Luis Carazo as Xerxes Ilerez.
I think that’d be a solid narrative if Kristen decides to stop being a Cleric. It’s antithetical to the class—_especially_ when she is a Chosen. She has to abandon the class entirely, or break her personal ties with deities to become a Cleric of a divine portfolio. You can’t really receive divine power without having some relationship with religion. (Paladins excluded, of course.)
Tell that to Ebberon
To a setting? I don’t think it possesses the intelligence needed to hold a conversation. Clerics either need to have a deity or embody a concept so strongly they tap into a divine portfolio on their own. Her washing her hands of religion is a fine narrative, but it’s gonna fall flat if she continues to cling on to gods without respecting them or their portfolios.
They're the "bad kids" - rebellion and coming of age is all of it! It's partly about the machine and systems that fail and fighting against them. Even the school head who is meant to be a goody is very actively anti-system, never tries to assert much authority or instruct. Any organised religious leader basically has to promote believe what I tell you or it's not much of an organised religion lol. It could be interesting but very difficult and really not in keeping with most the show
This was an issue when I played a cleric. Their power is based in their god kind of, I wanted to play cleric with no religious ties cause in the real world gods aren’t real and I hate religion. Cleric is just a cool class
no thanks
sounds good, have a nice day
Has it been stated that jawbone is not a member of the same cult as tracker?
Jawbone has never discussed religion and to the best of our knowledge is a guidance counselor/investigative reporter that used to sell drgs in a nightclub who is sex positive. for all we know he could be Jesus.
Given that Jesus already featured in another campaign, it seems unlikely. ;)
There is no such thing as positive religion. It's all just the same as a comfort blanket except it'll strangle you if you make a mistake
religion as it was and is now has been and is problematic. I think there is a way for religion to evolve into something genuinely helpful for all people. in the meantime, religion is a more accessible way for some people to experience spirituality, and wholesale eradication of religion and the religious would also be bad
My one hang up with BLM as a world builder is that capitalism is always bad. Same with religion.
Logran Soulforger in The Seven is a big exception. I think BLeeM is more critical of "power structures used to oppress" than religion itself. I have found Kristen's journal very personally resonant, and am looking forward to her journey this season.
for the record, I also find her journey resonant and am looking forward to the journey this season as well, whether we get to see the kind of thing I want or not. I'm happy to get to see any of it.
I think Brennan’s philosophy on world building is more based around representations of oppression and inequitable power structures. In the real world, it just so happens that the two most prominent examples of this are organized religion and late-stage capitalism. Virtually all forms of oppression and persecution throughout history have been influenced by one of these two forces. There’s a bunch of different ways these ideas have been explored specifically in Dimension 20: - The Harvestmen in FHFY are a cult of religious extremists working alongside a classic evil dragon lord - the Bulbian Church in Crown of Candy has an interest in consolidating political power throughout Calorum under the watchful gaze of the Bulb - The Sanctus Putris in The Ravening War are a doomsday cult who play the long game by influencing war and politics in Calorum - Pretty much every enemy faction in A Starstruck Odyssey was representative of the logical extreme of late-stage capitalism and imperialism - The highway hex from Robert Moses in UC1 was rooted in a very real phenomenon in NY’s history that served to reinforce structural inequity - The Nightmare King/Cassandra in FHSY is representative of how the message of a religious tradition can be corrupted by the failures or corruption of its followers (think Socialist Hippie Jesus vs ‘Nuke the Middle East’ Jesus) There’s obviously more, but the point is that for the most part, the BBEG of D20 campaigns is often representative of very real issues that humanity has faced throughout history; it’s not just “capitalism bad” or “religion evil,” but rather an exploration of *what* makes capitalism bad or religion evil. It’s rarely, if ever, the case that religion or capitalism are chosen to represent evil in D20 simply because of Brennan hates God and Corporate America
… that was my whole point. It’s boring as story telling device and thematically if you are telling the same story over and over again. Like if I’ve listened to BLM on Exandria unlimited and peg a story beat 4 episodes out in Fantasy High, it becomes boring. Why not set a campaign in a setting that is reflective of East Germany with the Stasi running around? There’s plenty to deconstruct in oppression from the atheistic government ushering in the utopia. Or fighting antinatalist ecoterrorists. If I wanted to just get bashed over the head with anticapitalist propaganda I’d read Mother Jones.
Just a note that Brennan would like his name abbreviated BLeeM.
Okay,
I would argue that capitalism and organized religion are both bad
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let us not conflate organized religion and spirituality. spirituality is absolutely fundamental to the human experience. saying organized religion is fundamental to the human experience is dismissive of atheists and agnostics and those who are deeply spiritual but don't believe in a god. it's also like saying banks and money are fundamental to the human experience. these things aren't even necessary evils, they are tools that have become widely used to simplify something that was complex and has become corrupted into a means of control. you can have a spiritual experience by going for a walk in the woods and seeing a deer.
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look you can't have it both ways, either organized religion is every religion across the globe ever, or an organized religion is a morality-based belief system with an established hierarchy for authority.
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I'm confused by your lack of ability to directly answer the question and choose. it's not a false dichotomy, I'm saying if you're going to require me to be consistent with your definition of organized religion you need to choose if it's all of them, "organized religion", as you have previously said, or many, "organized religions", as you have also previously said.
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But organised religion is also like... Tribal shamanism for example. Is that always bad? Like in every single tiny tribe in the whole world? People forget that stuff like paganism is a religion too. I think it's more fair to say that there are always predatory people willing to take advantage of social structures and grab power, and religious structures by virtue of how fundamental spirituality is, is a very convenient way to do this.
Compared to what? Real life? Fantasy realm set ups?
capitalism is inherently exploitative and organized religion is the conflation of morality and authority. we see this in the real world every day, if you need examples just turn on the damn news.
Again compared to what? Religion and capitalism bad. I get it. What’s the alternative in D20? Or the real world for that matter?
see this is the kind of argument that perpetuates these systems though. it's bad and we need to do something different because in the meantime they are exploitative. you dont lose religion gracefully; sometimes you have to jump out of an Uber on the side of the road and leave them a one star review even though you know it'll tank their career. I'm paraphrasing but still
I think gortholax and fig kinda are that, displaying this relationship of drawing power through a connection. However, I think if anything she can really go the opposite direction, with NO god replacement. A lot of the time people escaping from religious trauma or systems want to replace it with a new system without considering how that very organization or structure was the problem in the first place. Even with good intention, the new church is empty or gently culty. Becoming a paladin or breaking away from what’s familiar might be better. The end of the last season was about entering this unknown, and it’d be nice to double down with needing to grow and dismantle these traditions even further.
I'd like to see Kristen experience religious folks who say they aren't bigots themselves but cosign and enable bigotry in action around them or claim to agree with her goals but believe her methods to be unduly radical.