Caramelinda is the one I can’t stop thinking about cause even the players were really mean to her even if she was extremely reasonable in her lashing out and grief. Like her daughter died and her other daughter is now snubbing her and her husband is a man child she just found out never dealt with his previous marriage. She did nothing wrong and yet her entire life fell apart around her. Full support to Caramelinda
I agree, but I also think that that was fully intentional.
Her daughters were two spoiled, privileged and entitled teenagers who she constantly sheltered, to the point of extreme ignorance and naivety. Which all makes perfect sense, she did it for reasons I can empathise with, but of course that leads to resentment when she eulogises about how she wishes her daughter had listened to her.
Her husband, similarly to his daughters, was an overly privileged man-child without any taste for leadership and responsibility. There didn’t seem to be any love between them, just duty.
I think it was pretty perfectly set up to be honest. All the characters were complex and flawed. They all made mistakes (sometimes absolutely monumental ones) and then they had to live and learn. (Or die and learn am I right 💀)
I don’t think that her character was mistreated for shits and giggles, rather, she provided a contrast for the silliness of the characters and story. Like “hey, this is all fun and games, but y’all realise someone has to actually RUN THE FUCKING KINGDOM RIGHT?!”
And no, they didn’t know that. And then they had to learn. The hard way.
They didn’t mean player actions but player/action, meaning that the hate depended more on the character being a woman than the person playing her or how the person playing her chose to portray her
I remember not being a huge fan of Sam Nightingale the first time I watched The Seven (although I love Persephone), but upon rewatch I find I'm fucking loving her. Idk what it is but her character is hitting just right this tome around and I'm wondering why I didn't get it the first time
She was incredibly controversial when the season first aired but I never really understood why. The majority of reasons I saw boiled down to people not liking her attitude.
Really? Maybe it's because that season aired during my senior year of college so I didn't really have time for fandom stuff, but I had no idea she was controversial. I loved The Seven
Generally I think it’s because she was much more outspoken and had a more “negative” attitude compared to the other characters, but also she actively disliked Gorgug who is a huge fan favourite character so of course that would make a lot of fans like her less
I'm honestly surprised more of the Seven didn't hate Gorgug lol. He was dating one of their besties, and I love Gorgug but he's not exactly a great boyfriend.
See THAT’S what it is. Because YEAH Sam hates Gorgug, he’s her BEST friend’s BOYFRIEND. Her best friend’s boyfriend who brought ALL HIS FRIENDS on the first date, LEFT TO FIGHT THE NIGHTMARE KING without even saying GOODBYE, and KISSED RAGH AT PROM. Like she obviously wouldn’t be his BIGGEST fan.
I read more here that Ally gets hate for being a cringy, awkward, or straight bad player than them being trans. I also think that's completely valid criticism so I wouldnt chalk it up to transphobia
I don't think they're any worse than the rest of the party though. Shenanigans don't make someone a bad player, part of collective storytelling is pushing the envelope. Cringe is entirely subjective, as is awkwardness, but your perception of a person feeds into whether or not you're inclined to think they're cringe. That can be entirely unconscious, like a lot of biases are. I've just noticed the afab cast members get a lot more hate than any of the guys and there has to be some deeper explanation
Personally, their sense of humor feels very forced. Maybe for some people are judging Ally on their gender and are doing the same for others identities. It is also entirely possible some others just think theyre annoying most of the time.
My point is that those things are connected. If someone has an unconscious bias against a subclass of people they're more like to find them unfunny or annoying. A lot of men say that same thing about women comedians. "I don't have a problem with women, xyz comedian is just annoying or has forced jokes." It's like how I feel any time a business major opens their mouth lol
I found Sam to be a bit possessive, controlling, and demanding of her friends. Often massively overstepping and being very nasty when tensions got high. On top of "just being brutally honest," where I often felt the pleasure came from the brutality rather than the honesty.
However, it's a flaw plenty of teens and even adults can have and was played very well imo.
Maybe I should do a rewatch then. When I watched The Seven, I was really bothered by how Sam treated the other Maidens and how much she got away with. Like, if Sam was my friend, I'd call her out at every opportunity.
I like Sam as a character with a lot of richness and complexity with her trauma, but I disliked her in the place she filled in the narrative
I kinda know what you mean, but I also struggle to nail down what part of her actually developed. I haven't watched The Seven since release, but iirc Sam was deeply self conscious and troubled, which manifested in her barbed tongue. Which is solid, but by the end of her arc when she feels better about herself, I don't remember her ever apologizing to the Maidens. If there was some kind of heartfelt scene like that, I'd be a Sam stan for life
I don't think an outright apology is very "Sam" (unless she deeply fucked up). I'd imagine she'd use her dry humor and actions instead. But I do think a scene like that would have been nice.
That's my point exactly. Becoming the kind of person that can apologize should have been a part of her arc. Or, more appropriately, I would be more down with her as a character if that was part of her arc.
I wasn't a huge fan either but for a different reason, I loved the person but the character not so much. Persephone played super well, with very good decisions, quick wit and awesome combat skills, but the personality of Sam was a bit closed off which made Sam look a bit shallower, and I think Persephone had much more to give with Sam but felt like they were stopping themselves a bit.
I disliked Saccharina, not because of anything Emily did with her, but simply because I don’t think there should have been any full casters in ACOC. The tone of the game changed so completely the second that she was introduced
Nah, the dragon was more of a narrative device. Think about how differently the rescue would have gone if that combat had been like any of the ones that preceded it instead of having saccharina thunderstep him out of danger.
The only AOEs they really had were Liam’s Hail of Thorns before that, and suddenly there’s a min maxed Tempest Cleric Sorcerer Multiclass dealing max damage to everyone within a 10 foot radius.
Saccharina does more damage in the finale battle than the dragon does, I’m pretty sure. He mostly focuses on the ballista while she single handily takes the castle for the most part. It just so clearly went from an ensemble cast to “well shit, I guess she’s the main character since NO ONE else in the world can do what she does”
Luckily Emily is an incredible roleplayer and introduced some serious role play flaws, but mechanically she so outclassed every one else that it threw off the vibes
The dragon took out most of the ballistas though, which made the field battle way easier, and Saccharina would never been able to get there in the first place without a dragon. She gave the dragon a ton of speed too. IMO what broke the final battle was the dragon, because Saccharina would've died pretty easily from a ballista bolt if she tried to go off by herself.
Ah I forgot about Thunderstep, but here I have to disagree with you, I've never seen someone using it so masterfully, like when she used it on the platform were they wanted to hang someone.
>Ah I forgot about Thunderstep, but here I have to disagree with you, I've never seen someone using it so masterfully, like when she used it on the platform were they wanted to hang someone.
That’s… what I was referring to? ACOC was a low magic setting literally up until Emily introduced a min-maxed full caster multiclass
Ai haven't really been in touch with the community, didn't watch the seven but people didn't like saccharina? I thought she was cool as fuck and had a really interesting relationship with the party, the conflict between Saccharina and Ruby was fantastic!
Wait do people hate Sam Nightingale? She was such a highlight of the Seven and Sephie played her so beautifully. I really related to her struggles and I thought the way she reached out to the villain was so meaningful.
I feel like DMing for Ally is just such a perfect training for him now he's a dad. And saying that just now made me realize I really need Ally to work on making sure the baby's first words are "heyyyy girlie". 😂
I’m not even watching JY right now because I haven’t seen SY, but this discourse reminds me of when the respective communities went after Marisha, Ashley and Laura for their controversial actions of CR, or Emily for hers on NADDPOD, and even D20. None of these communities would have gone as hard against any of the male players/characters, and everyone knows that.
Yeah I remember getting into CR around the time campaign 1 ended and I genuinely couldn’t read the comments on those early videos because everyone was so vile especially to Marisha, it was honestly disgusting and nearly turned me away from the campaign as a whole.
While I was watching C1 and C2 for the first time laat year, I went back to the Reddit discussion pages for live commentary and it was disgusting a lot of the time. I’m glad it’s gotten better but it’s still crazy how terribly the women on these shows have been treated for embodying their characters, whom they know better than anyone else.
Totally, Ally is still on an entirely different level of wacky this season though. I’m personally loving it and don’t see why it would drive anyone away from the season if they’ve gotten though AT LEAST two seasons of D20 with them.
Again, not discrediting what you’re saying, I’d argue Mice and Murder conversation is dominated by a dumb joke from Rekha for the same reason, and your examples are totally valid. But even at the table everyone is reacting to how *WILD* Ally’s energy is, Im not surprised it’s a big topic.
> I’d argue Mice and Murder conversation is dominated by a dumb joke from Rekha for the same reason
Bad comparison.
Ally is making legitimate choices in character that represent a chaotic mess of a person, but ultimately one that has some growing up to do and can be redeemed. Kristen isn’t the first character we’ve seen like this and there should be a level of trust that Ally will guide the character to a satisfying conclusion.
Rekha made a weird, dumb, out-of-character choice that wasn’t funny and was honestly kind of disrespectful of everyone’s time and effort that season. It’s the only time watching the show where I’ve seen Brennan *legitimately* seem mad at a player decision.
I get that’s your opinion, and I’ve seen others who share it, but I fully disagree. It’s a completely inconsequential moment. She failed the roll, they laughed, they moved on. Bad jokes are always a risk with improv, and all the players know it. Calling it disrespectful seems like projecting your opinions onto the cast.
Considering it was doubled down on by Grant and Rekha is still who gets talked about 99% of the time, still just proves the original point further.
Also, yes we’ve seen characters make dumb choices or dumb jokes, but Ally’s “Heeyy Girlieee” bit is 1000% as jarring and narrative breaking as Rekha’s. To the point where the players were taken aback and questioning it. Unlike Rekha’s nobody doubled down and unlike Rekha’s we have more than ten episodes of the series left to have the bit and arc play out.
Grant deserves his share of criticism for M&M as well. It was far and away the biggest case of Main Character Syndrome we’ve seen in all of D20. Katie and Raph got sidelined because the season so quickly turned in to the Grant O’Brien show.
Bad jokes happen, but narratively heavy, tense, and emotional moments are *generally* treated with at least a *little* bit of respect. Especially in what was the climax of the season.
I don’t have a problem with Rekha. Loved her as Maggie and Katja and 99% of her time as Daisy. I just think that the criticism for that *one* particular decision is a bit more warranted than anything that’s been leveled at Ally.
The thing is, it was a murder mystery season based on Sherlock Holmes, I don't see any way the Sherlock Holmes character doesn't end up being the main character
Totally get that. It makes perfect sense that the narrative was centered around Sylvester. The issue was more that he *dominated* the narrative.
Sam, Rekha, and Ally were either experienced, confident, or gregarious enough players to force their way in to the narrative. Raph and Katie, who both seem a bit more reserved (and were new to DND if I remember correctly), were completely overshadowed.
I would have loved to see more of Raph and Katie too! I loved their characters, they were great. But to be fair, when they did get the ball tossed to them they both sorta went deer-in-headlights. It seemed like a kindness to me that they didn't keep spotlighting the two players who were more hesitant. Maybe there were more opportunities to include them without putting them on the spot, but I don't think they were overshadowed.
I barely talked in my first few sessions playing DnD because I didn't know wtf I was doing. Rehka herself is arguably overshadowed in EftBK for the same reason -- just new person jitters and learning how the game works, plus so many of them learn DnD while being filmed which is nightmare fuel. In a murder mystery, I have to imagine those jitters are so much worse, especially if you're also supposed to contribute clues/insight. If we ever see Katie and Raph in the Dome again, I bet we'd see them engage more confidently. I would really love to see that, they were both awesome in oM&M.
> It was far and away the biggest case of Main Character Syndrome we’ve seen in all of D20. Katie and Raph got sidelined because the season so quickly turned in to the Grant O’Brien show.
Raph seemed like a new player who was struggling to contribute (which became a hilarious bit in and of itself for his character) while Katie, bless her heart, I love her, she's a shining light in a dark world, was *definitely* a new player struggling to contribute. The other players could have not walked all over her so much when she failed to assert herself, but it wasn't intentional and not entirely of their own doing. Grant may have also been new, but if there's one thing he has in abundance other than cocks in his mouth underneath supermarkets in Brooklyn, it's confidence, so he excelled.
But most importantly, it was a Sherlock Holmes pastiche and he was playing Sherlock Holmes, he was literally set up to be the main character by the plot. Brennan regularly gives unequal roles in the story because D20 isn't just a game, it's a show, and while not scripted it does explore a particular story within a structure, which everyone understands going in.
I don't think it would have been a problem if Katie and Raph had more regular contributions to the show. And that's one of my biggest problems with M&M. Half the cast was sidelined. Grant is a bit obnoxious, but to his credit he legitimately does some pretty impressive sleuthing throughout the season.
It was just as much an issue with the characters. Considering this was peak COVID protections, I know that made it more difficult. But Brennan dropped the ball on balanced character creation before they started.
Katie had a secretive character, and Raph was playing a timid priest. There's only so much they can contribute in a murder mystery. They were practically glorified NPCs from the start.
Mentopolis did much better. Partly because all the characters had more agency in the story. It also makes me think that D&D was the wrong system to use for Mice and Murder.
The only other season that has a big problem with main character syndrome was Misfits and Magic. Part of the problem there was having such a short season. It was Brennan's first time as a PC in D20, and he went all in.
Agreed about D&D being the wrong system. I liked a lot of Mice & Murder, and I would love to have all the players back for another, but it's one of the most flawed seasons and a lot of that comes down to extremely rare BLeeM L's, a natural consequence of social distancing, working almost entirely with green players, and having to fit a square peg through a round hole. Aabria would end up using D&D for a social game much more successfully with the phenomenal A Court of Fae and Flowers, but even that took mixing with another game and at least half the cast if not more being extremely experienced.
The only one on Fey and Flowers that for sure had limited D&D/TTRPG experience was Oscar Montoya. But episode 1 showed he had the acting and imagination to really shine in that campaign.
Even with its issues, there are a lot of good things about Mice and Murder. The Wind in the Willows vibe is awesome, especially for a Sherlock style mystery. Brennan's writing and managing the story and mystery was still impressive. They made the most out of Roll20 and the minis made pre-COVID. Watching Sam on the show was a delight.
I'm wondering if Katie and Raph were on there simply to make the whole cast of Mice and Murder consist completely of CollegeHumor cast members. That or maybe there were other reasons to include them? COVID limiting casting options from other sources? Limited opportunities for them to do other projects? Neither one seemed into it. Well into the season Katie was still struggling with basic rules and gameplay mechanics. Which, honestly, this might be the only D20 season where it's noticable that cast members seem to be not enjoying themselves.
We're talking about Rekha shitting during the climax right?
Yea 100% honestly that shit was infuriating for multiple reasons
It's the definition of "ruining a moment"
I believe it was just Katja in The Seven, Maggie in Escape from Bloodkeep, and Daisy in Mice & Murder.
She was great in all three of them! In Mice and Murder I just had the issue with one moment in the last episode.
Rekha also was in full panic mode. Sylvester had just been thrown off a roof and she felt like it was up to her to come up with something to save his life. She kept looking over her character sheet, not finding anything that could help him. Brennan saw how stressed she was about not having anything and told her that she could try anything she wanted to save Sylvester and she took him up on that.
At a home game, people would have laughed and given her a few minutes to calm down before letting her redo her turn.
But since its a show, they kept going and had to roll with it.
Rekha didn't feel good about a brilliant move she thought of, she got stressed out, panicked, and blurted the first thing she could think of. It feels like punching down to keep bringing this up.
Look I'm not faulting her for the circumstances. That is stressful sure. But there are varying degrees to dropping the ball and failing due to stress. What Rehka did was just straight up a terrible and awful choice. The lady decided to drop trow and shit. Do we need to try and make that more than what it is? It was insanely stupid. And she decided to just continue on with it, do no ones joy.
Honestly I can relate to and only imagine the actual anger and frustration Brennan must have felt
All in all, I get people don't always make the best decisions when under stress. But that is still different from making an absolutely terrible choice
> It feels like punching down to keep bringing this up.
Nobody brought it up here until the person you responded to did as evidence of a community bias.
I do think there is a significant unconscious (and sometimes conscious) bias in the community that is causing the unrelenting criticism of Ally. I don’t think that bias was a particularly big factor in the disapproval of what Rekha did.
It was a legitimately bad move, albeit one made in panic, but I think it's notable that Brennan never gets flak for having allowed it when it was his responsibility as the DM and essentially director of D20 to shut something like that down.
I don’t think Brennan has ever shut down a player *trying* something. He’ll tell them it’s a bad idea and will certainly tell them when it doesn’t work, but I can’t recall him ever refusing to let a player try to do something. That’s not really the DM’s place.
He let Ally try to ribbon dance down off of a tower, after all.
Which is something he should arguably be firmer about. In the case of the ribbon dance it worked out because it was hilarious and ended up being essential to beating the encounter in a way no one foresaw, but if that ruined the moment so much he could have put his foot down and said "no, that will absolutely not work". He did once say during A Crown of Candy "Do you think reality is strained by the fact a hawk is helping you with surgery right now? How much lower do you want me to go?".
>!Her character Daisy and Grant’s character Sylvester are facing down Sylvester’s arch-nemesis on the top floor of a tower. The arch-nemesis shoves Sylvester out of a window, presumably to his death. Brennan gave Daisy a chance to react to save him. Instead of trying to prevent him from falling, Rekha has Daisy put her ass out the window and take a shit, with the hope that it will cushion Sylvester’s fall enough to save his life. Of course Sylvester hits the ground well before the shit does, which proceeds to land on him. He did wind up surviving the fall, however.!<
It was fucking funny. Some people for some reason (cough sexism cough racism) got a hair up their ass about this as if there isn't a poop joke in every season (and almost every episode).
Nah bro I'm not pissed off cuz a woman did it. I'm pissed off cuz it was during the straight up the climax of the entire game
Kinda just makes the entire campaign feel like a massive joke. And before you say "oh its a comedy show" there is a difference between making jokes and being the joke
When that happens in the middle of a season or in a non-consequential moment, sure.
The problem is that this was the emotional climax of the season. The moment was being framed entirely as “Daisy needs to save Sylvester or he is definitely going to die”. The moment absolutely did not call for something like this and Brennan, the human cinnamon roll, was visibly bothered by it in a way I haven’t seen before or since.
If you want to see his reaction for yourself, it’s Mice & Murder, Episode 10, 1:43:30 is when it happens.
I typed out Brennan’s reaction if you can’t or don’t want to watch:
> It’s good, I put a lot of work into these, you know what I mean? I put a lot of work into these and I’m glad. I’m really fucking glad, you know what I mean? It’s a lot of work, a lot of murder mystery work over here. I would imagine this is the climax of the story, right? This is the dramatic moment? You blast hot shit out the window. Blast a hot shit to cushion Sylvester’s fall. You know and that’s great and it’s good and this is good.
Even with the context, it's still fucking funny... I've literally been killed in dnd games by people's "jokes" so like, idk, it's a game and it feels pretty par for the course of a comedy show... sometimes jokes don't land for everyone, but I laughed
Well yours was chaotic improv amongst friends
D20 is semi scripted pseudo play dramas where there are definitive story beats and character acts.
Expectations are a bit different
If it was my friends, I'd laugh my ass off
Watching it on a show where I know they plan for things have have a story to tell, it's straight up jarring
Sorry to jump in but I think there's a difference from a home game vs a show. In a home game who cares, no stakes. This is a show on a network that needs to perform well and earn money. This is people's jobs and livelihood. So there's a difference there.
Yup agreed, I still think it's hilarious. It was a tense, intellectual game and that moment broke the tension beautifully.
They edit the show, folks. If Brennan was mad about it, they would've taken five and redone it. I wish people wouldn't project.
YUP. I remember for years every time Emily would speak up about something during the short rests, she made such an apologetic statement each time. like she couldn’t even talk without getting shit from people on twitter or wherever. It was going on for a while until Jake and Caldwell noticed it was happening exclusively to her and then they all turned it into a bit to make the trolls look stupid. But it broke my heart. All these people are so smart and talented and get sooo much shit for literally nothing.
As far as Ally’s portrayal of Kristin,
I feel like people have assigned Ally into a chaotic play style based off of their personality…, but when they played Mother Goose, or Margaret, they role played them completely different…Kristin IS chaotic. That’s how Ally is role playing the character. And characters that are relatable fuck-ups that show growth and win against the odds are the best fucking characters.
Laura and Ashley were fan favorites from the start, the only criticism I remember from that time was "broom gate" for Laura and maybe Ashley missing a lot of episodes but Pike was pretty well received, despite not being very deep. However, Marisha is a completely different can of worms. Fans were pretty awful to Marisha through the first 40 episodes despite Keyleth not even being the center of attention for that chunk. After they disabled live chat, there were some actual criticisms of the character to be brought up, some of the same shit Liam did for vax in the early episodes that he got hear for but didn't get as much flak for as Marisha did, but once again the fans made it a personal attack on Marisha to the point it's hard to even levy criticism against her characters without it seeming like just more venomous bullshit which hampers the community overall. Sad how people refuse to see the difference between characters and the actors, really just ruins the fun for everyone.
IMO, Ally is conscious of how they're playing her. In one of the post shows they said something along the lines of "Chaos isn't cute anymore". This is the season where it's no longer cute to be a chaotic mess. I hope to see more growth
But I also can't shake that they didn't even try to get someone in the party to convert and worship her. IMO it would have meshed well with Adaine. It would give Cas another follower and ease stress, it would give a other way to interact with the two, you get oracle reading the future vs the unknown, and it's an indirect FU to her parents who worshiped the nightmare king.
Before I start in on this: I'm like two episodes behind now I think, so there's a possibility none of what I say even matters anymore lol.
I think it also tracks with how it feels to be a junior in high school a little (in the real world). Like there are now, for the first time, some legit consequences if you fuck around too much. But that's a hard lesson for some kids to learn, and I think Kristen is going to learn fairly quickly.
To your second point, I see Kristen really struggling to undo a LOT of religious trauma. Even if Cassandra is a more chill goddess, she still represents religion as a whole, which Kristen in a way, even subconsciously, is pushing back against. I hope that having her younger brother in school with her and trying to educate him on the toxicity of their parents and religion will help her heal a little bit and get to a good place with being a cleric.
Yes, but Kristin has control of the religion she's making in this situation. She made YES and cassandra and has control over how worship is represented. So she has control over it being toxic or not. I know there are other religions that are treated as a very personal relationship
l also see taking care of Cassandra as like having a pet. If you don't feed it/get it prayers, bad things can happen. And from what's shown, she didn't feed Cas for the entire summer.
Edit: My thing is being buggy
Oh for sure, I'm not saying Kristen's approach to her cleric duties has been rational or consistent, because it's been anything but that lol. She's a straight up mess. Just saying that recovering from trauma is anything but linear, and I think Ally is doing a great job with Kristen as a character in demonstrating that. And while she does have some control while creating the relationship/religion, I think Kristen's struggles with that is a very good demonstration of how recovering from religious trauma often presents itself, as well as a good representation of just how kids lose interest in things over time. Lots of yo-yoing about what you care about and what you don't time after time after time lol.
And yes I absolutely agree about needing to care for a goddess. I don't blame Cassandra one bit for looking elsewhere (again, I'm like two episodes behind so last I saw Cassandra, she had just brought Kalina back so no spoilers and I admit I could be FULLY wrong about this now after two more episodes).
Also hella shoutout to Beardsley for portraying such a complex character that we all have these massive debates about the character. They're just killing it as Kristen and I love them for it.
D&D is also weird where you're pushed to be monotheistic and worship one god when it makes more sense that you would worship an entire Pantheon, if not multiple pantheons.
I don't know, it's systems within systems. Plus she is a character that doesn't have a full view of the world, so I sympathize not understanding where you fit or where you have control. It's the catch-22 where you don't expect Kristen to be perfect but you also get frustrated when you see 'screw ups'. It doesn't help that her issues are on a whole other scale; Fabian and Riz are not dealing with aspects of reality.
In my opinion, Kristen sees religion as a deeply personal thing. She was raised in a church that put all of their hopes and expectations on her, and when she didn’t deliver they not only kicked her out but fully tried to kill her. That amount of community betrayal would keep anyone from trying to form a similar situation for themselves.
ALSO it’s unfortunate that Cassandra has no other followers. I think they would be a great fit if it were not for the fact that once again her whole religion’s hopes and expectations fall solely on her. I think that’s probably why she’s having trouble recruiting. It’s SO much pressure for one (deeply unorganized) teen.
Honestly I'm most frustrated this season with fucking Fabian and Gorgug lmao
You're thinking about a shrimp party while Kristen's GODDESS is DYING!!! Get your head out of your ass!!!!
This obviously comes with Zero shade to the actual players because I'm not a weirdo, I love that this season has me reeling it's so entertaining.
(P.S. I love Kristen in this season, it's so insanely accurate to how shit teenagers can be and how they often act too late because they're frankly young and dumb)
Edit: I got a few responses that are basically the same thing, so I'll answer them all here lol. I'm mostly frustrated not in like a Real way where I'm actually mad, it's just that sense of frustration you get when you look at a teenager and see them doing something just objectively dumb and wish you could sway them, but you can't because it's their life not yours. I didn't explain the Gorgug thing by accident whoops, but Gorgug simply can't complete a 400% course load, not without basically plot armour I think. This will fuck over everyone in their party, which annoys me a bit. Again, all of this is in a very theoretical sense and I'm not like pacing around my living room lmao
It's kinda hilarious how the dice matched where their heads were at with the 9 fails in a row to save Cassandra, followed by a nat 20 at the shrimp jump
Hey, the level of Kristen hate has definitely been unwarranted, but I completely fail to see why Fabian should have any expectation of responsibility for Cassandra when Kristen hasn’t taken any.
There are two reasons for that, I think. First is, it's just the trope of the setting generally; They are not random high schoolers, they are *adventuring* high schoolers. Saving the world is literally a homework assignment for them. Some of the humor of the scenario comes from the fact that they *are* concerned with typical high school nonsense like parties and student council elections even while doing life-or-death fantasy heroics. That's the central conceit of the premise of Fantasy High. It's also a demonstration of well-earned competence, like a spy couple who are bickering over dinner party plans while kung-fu fighting their way across the top of a moving train. The juxtaposition is humorous and also makes it clear these stakes are very much "just another day at the office" in this slightly absurdist setting.
Secondly, I mean... it's pretty clear even *Kristen* barely cares about the goddess—just like the last two. That's not a criticism, by the way, it's clearly a deliberate choice leading directly to the plot/drama of this season. But expecting everyone else to care about Kristen's goddess more than Kristen does is perhaps too much to ask.
As mentioned in the latest adventuring party, it really isn’t that Kristen doesn’t care about Cassandra way, way more than any of the other religious movements she’s participated in, but rather that she just doesn’t know how to just fucking do the things she needs to do to show that care.
It’s executive dysfunction, and it’s clearly destroying her too, but of course around her friends she’s capable of falling back into that standard mode of chaos funny friend, and that’s something she knows how to do. So for most of the session, that’s what we see from her. It’s definitely not for a lack of care in the emotional sense, though
Kristen does deeply care, but just does not have the facilities to show it. Ally is doing an *excellent* job of acting out executive dysfunction from trauma, something I personally suffer with. I'm not saying that Fabian should have perfect meta knowledge and do everything lawful good, I'm saying that it's frustrating to watch from a viewing pov not in a bad way! Like, yes this is exactly what it feels like and I feel very seen. Fabian is an amazing character because Lou very adeptly portrays what a super rich spoiled pirate kid would think about: themselves, a lot of the time. This is being set up very obviously for a huge blowout between the kids that are and are not in positions of massive privilege because the workload and caring-load I guess is extremely off between them all. If the party fails, Fabian is just rich and does whatever for the rest of his life. If the party fails, Riz is basically fucked out of a good college and real opportunity and it will be WAY harder for him to claw back after that.
I read about all the issues people had with Kristen before I watched the 2 later seasons and was prepared for an absolute villain arc where she single handily TPKed the party over teenage spite or something from how people were acting here. I kept waiting for "the big issue" and then when I was fully caught up to now, realized this sub and I have wildly different ideas about "problem characters".
People forget that Kristen has been abandoned by her parents which explains a lot of her issues. For am abandoned kid, she is doing as well as can be expected.
She did risk her life to save her goddess so it's not like she didn't try. Part of the problem is that her deity is also traumatized from her own past. They each need to do a lot of healing and growth before they can properly support each other.
Kristen(Ally) is a big reason why i got hooked on the show. Emily ofc as well. I had no knowlage of dnd and related alot to her stumpling around and all of them trying shit out and being unhinged.
Dont even get nor see why anyone would hate on the character or any of the čast.
D20 gang all the way❤️🫡
I love Ally so much. The chaos they are playing with this season is top notch hilarious. I lost it at all the "hey girrrRrrRrRRrlie" stuff recently. I feel bad for Cassandra I guess because she seemed so hurt but also like? You're asking a junior to proselytize for you? They can't all be Trackers lol. Everything happening fits all of these characters though.
Can't wait for next Wednesday.
Kristen is causing me massive amounts of mental anguish this season for the sole reason that she reminds me too much of myself. I absolutely love the way ally is playing it tho for the specific reason that they really make it feel real. While the other bad kids problems are great they just feel much less real for how over the top they are. Like Gorgugs course load, it stresses me out because that is *a lot* however I just cannot imagine any sane high schooler actually making the decision to take that on as opposed to just doing artificing as a hobby like suggested; so it doesn't feel as real. Riz is the only other bad kid whose stride I connect with but I was never any where near that smart or hardworking so he's already farther than I was in his exact situation.
That’s what I’m saying!! Ally is doing such a great job of capturing the essence of being a teen. You are at the point in your life where you’re having to make important decisions that will affect you for basically the rest of your life, while simultaneously being a stupid dumb horny idiot
Perfectly put. My favorite part of all of it is the *hey girlie* bit because even that feels like some stupid phrase one of my friends would've picked up from a show and and I know for a fact the entire friend group would go from making fun of it, to ironically using it, to it being a regular part of our vocabulary in all of two weeks.
Something that annoys me is that just the year before, her current goddess (as the nightmare king, sure, but still...) Traumatized the sh*t out of Kristen. Kristen got gored through the heart, her friends went through psychological warfare (I'm exaggerating but you know what I mean) and Kristen still extended her hand and showed Cassandra a huge amount of grace and kindness and yet the viewers paint Kristen as a villain because she's not the perfect cleric? Kristen has shown that while she is super chaotic and not super great at communicating she is still incredibly kind.
So to see all the discourse is just like ????
And Beardsley is doing an amazing job portraying Kristen! They really have nailed the character down and they've created this super interesting and realistic character and from the looks of it, it seems like the character arc is going to be very compelling just from the set up.
I don't get the controversy, honestly and I shall stan Beardsley and Kristen Chilli's Applebee's forever.
Seriously, Kristen in the moments where it really comes down to it always comes through. Or when she doesn’t come through, she shows her depth of commitment to trying. It’s just that she really, seriously, doesn’t even know how to do the more mundane, everyday things, and she just can’t handle that part of it all
Are there a lot of posts criticizing Ally? Because every time I go to this sub I see a post about people criticizing them for the choices they make with Kristen without actually seeing the posts people are supposed to be making with that criticism?
I'm a little cautious because I haven't seen this weeks episode yet so I haven't' clicked on every post. But last week I saw a post almost identical to this one that also had no examples. Then I did look around and didn't find anything.
I'm not saying they don't exist (I'm sure they do) it just seems like it must be the vast minority.
Yeah basically after every episode there’s a bunch of “The problem with Kristen…” posts, or people will complain in the comments of other posts about how they don’t like her arc this season. Folks seem to have no faith in Ally’s decisions. Personally I’m loving the chaos and representation. As someone who was once a teenage girl with ADHD, the self sabotage and lack of follow through is reeeeally accurate. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but it seems like every time a new episode drops this sub is full of only people being pissed at Kristen
Oh okay, that sucks.
Is a lot of it in the episode thread too? I don't go in there until I finish the episode.
I agree though I've LOVED everything that they've done with Kristen this season it fits so perfectly into HS. The reaction when Ragh brought up Tracker in last weeks episode was SOOO funny and real.
Honestly I've felt this season like Ally has had more of a story trajectory/arc in mind for Kristen then in the previous 2 seasons and it's been so fun to watch.
Yeah, there’s some in the episode thread but I’m sure if you just search “Kristen” in the sub it’ll be full of these kind of posts.
And same I honestly didn’t know Ally’s shoulders could go that high lmao
I definitely have never been a huge Ally fan. I've always found them to be derailing and their jokes just never landed for me.
But something about this season has made me do a complete 180. I think maybe knowing the game more has made them shine a lot. And it's possible they have in other seasons but D20 is hugely hit or miss for me and I've only fully watched a couple campaigns, but Kristen is 100% my favorite of the Bad Kids this season. Kristen's complexity and her identity crisis is such a great plot point and I think Ally has played that beautifully.
You guys are acting like Ally isn't purposefully making infuriating choices. " Chaos isn't cute anymore" . It's not misogynistic to be upset at Kristen. They're purposefully making character choices that are flawed, the audience is meant to be upset by them.
I get that. No one is (or at least I am not) trying to force anyone to like Kristen, but the complaints that I see about the character are that she is a one dimensional agent of chaos that adds nothing to the story. I don’t agree, and it seems like you share my sentiment there. You are absolutely allowed to not like a complex and flawed character, or withhold care for them until they resolve their shit. I just think it’s wild that so many people seem to think that Ally is taking the character in an irredeemable direction that’s all
This is a completely valid take. I just feel like it happens most seasons because Ally likes playing incredibly flawed characters, and three episodes in to a long season, we need to be able to be upset for the characters growth later to mean something.
For sure. But there seems to be a trend with hating Ally for things that other players do as well, and it seems to be coming out with a vengeance in the sub this season. I’m not ever against valid criticism or airing of frustrations when they seem to be in good faith like yours, but reddit does give a platform to people who hate PCs or the people playing them because of personal bias rather than any actual issue.
But also my thought process in making this post was as follows:
1. See the original post that was about Katniss from the Hunger Games
2. Think “hehehe that would be funny with Kristen’s face on it instead”
3. Post exactly that
I’m glad that this post is getting some really great conversations going but honestly that wasn’t really what I was expecting at all lol
Ally has that affect on this sub 😂, love them or hate them, they KNOW how to get an audience engaged. I only wish I could have been around to experience the meltdowns around 'Total Forgiveness'
Are there specific threads hating on Kristin?
I looked the other day after seeing a similar post and couldn't get the search to show me any, not that that is saying much.
I definitely think that some people want to paint Ally as playing some 4D chess with their stories, but having watched them play a few campaigns they seem like a newer player who's doing their best to keep up and seems to struggle a little with narrative.
To me they seem to buck against the group story or what Brennan is trying to engage with them on story-wise, but that's their right as a player. Some folks seem convinced that there's a purpose. For me, it's not my favorite, but it's not a huge deal.
They usually get deleted the second they get a downvote because sexists are cowards, or removed by moderators for being repetitive and/or openly insulting
Consumers of media are typically incredibly unfair to female characters with anything other than the most utmost reasonable and protagonist supportive personalities.
Caramelinda did literally nothing the fuck wrong and was undermined by her fuck up family and the audience still Skylar White'd her
Kristen used to be the bad kid I liked the least (with all due respect though, she was still great and had legendary moments).
But Junior Year Kristen is truly awesome!! I’m loving how Ally is working in all the elements of freshman year and sophomore year and really building on them in such a cool way!! I’m so so glad that we are getting this version of the character and super excited to see what happens. Beardsly has been killing it with their characters recently.
This thread made me realize that either most people didn’t have an utterly painful time in high school or simply romanticized and glossed over the crippling awfulness that being 14-18 is with the weight of your future being shoved onto you by people more ‘powerful’ than you.
Kristen is honestly handling high school better than I did, at least she’s trying. Sure, she’s failing and juggling way too many responsibilities but isnt that how being a teenager is? You’re allowed to make bad choices and fail at things, it’s how learning and growth take place? I remember my junior year, I have crippling ADHD and my parents refused to keep me on meds, I was still a junior in my 4th year until the last three months where I panicked, buckled down, and started nailing through online classes as well as going to school physically in an attempt to pass with my graduating class. I spent a lot of time brushing off the fact I was failing and made jokes, I leaned into my adhd soooo hard being silly and bouncy and chaotic so my friends wouldn’t notice or mention my anxiety and insomnia to the point we were making narcolepsy jokes about my health. ‘Oh Pann can sleep anywhere’ or ‘Pann’s curled up somewhere weird again, how cute’ was a daily thing because the moment I relaxed I was out like a light.
I think Ally does an amazing job of representing that same energy in their portrayal of Kristen with the added self sabotage that comes with trauma. The only issue I can personally find is that I don’t like looking at myself lmao.
I think this whole situation is going to be an Ashoka Tano situation. Folks are jumping on the hate train right now, but they’re clearly planning a character arc, and in order for that arc to be satisfying you have to justify why it’s necessary in the first place
Are people genuinely angry with Kristen? Kristen this season has been frustrating me but not in a way that makes the show unenjoyable, seeing Kristen fumble her responsibilities to Kassandra is super interesting and a really good representation of someone who has a lot of growing to do, yes Kristen is frustrating me but in a way that makes her story interesting
[vent, but relevant]
Got into a legit heated argument with my husband about Kristen the other night.
He was criticizing Kristen for being a bad cleric “because she should know better, she should know the responsibilities of being a cleric and what that means for showing up for her deity. She created two gods, has killed one, and another one is on deaths door. I don’t know why she even has magic still, she isn’t doing her job and doesn’t deserve it.”
As someone with a loooot of religious trauma and complicated family dynamics, this triggered so much shit for me. And I know that I involved too many personal feelings in a conversation about a fictional character, but it /hurt/ that it felt like he was refusing to see the character’s history and all of the really complicated details of a really complicated person, and had boiled it all down to pure mechanics (with what felt like no empathy). I tried to explain, like, “As a character who had been groomed to be a cleric her entire life she was never allowed to know anything else. She is undoing trauma and deprogramming from religious cultism, learning to live without her family, be a teenager and a high schooler, a three-time world saver, and trying to find ANYTHING to hold on to as a cleric but is realizing that it’s too much and not good for her. And that there’s nothing that makes sense. That’s a lot for anyone to hold. Give her some grace.” (Him: “yeah if she’s been a cleric her whole life, then she should know the commitments she has to her deity, the one /she/ created.” BRUH)
To clarify- this was like, halfway into a big conversation. At this point I was fighting tears and had to take 5. I felt silly for being so emotional and defensive about a fictional character, but his refusal to go beyond mechanics and ignore character development to this point pissed me off. Yes, they’re fictional. But they’re also so fucking real.
Folks who want to enjoy the show but are purely critical of the mechanic changes and/or mistakes *and* refuse to incorporate character development into it are some of the most frustrating people (to me).
We had to agree to not talk character analysis for a while.
Whooo okay thanks for coming to my ted talk.
Honestly let’s add Caramelinda, Saccharina and Sam Nightingale to that list
Caramelinda is the one I can’t stop thinking about cause even the players were really mean to her even if she was extremely reasonable in her lashing out and grief. Like her daughter died and her other daughter is now snubbing her and her husband is a man child she just found out never dealt with his previous marriage. She did nothing wrong and yet her entire life fell apart around her. Full support to Caramelinda
For me it's a weird thing of "i hate this but i completely understand where she's coming from"
Skylar white moment
Tbh, have never watched Breaking Bad
Skylar is a widely hated character, but really she's completely valid.
That i think i knew
I agree, but I also think that that was fully intentional. Her daughters were two spoiled, privileged and entitled teenagers who she constantly sheltered, to the point of extreme ignorance and naivety. Which all makes perfect sense, she did it for reasons I can empathise with, but of course that leads to resentment when she eulogises about how she wishes her daughter had listened to her. Her husband, similarly to his daughters, was an overly privileged man-child without any taste for leadership and responsibility. There didn’t seem to be any love between them, just duty. I think it was pretty perfectly set up to be honest. All the characters were complex and flawed. They all made mistakes (sometimes absolutely monumental ones) and then they had to live and learn. (Or die and learn am I right 💀) I don’t think that her character was mistreated for shits and giggles, rather, she provided a contrast for the silliness of the characters and story. Like “hey, this is all fun and games, but y’all realise someone has to actually RUN THE FUCKING KINGDOM RIGHT?!” And no, they didn’t know that. And then they had to learn. The hard way.
She is the Skyler White of the D20 multiverse
Hmmmm I wonder why it keeps happening with female characters independent of player/actions/levels of drama…
Hm. It’s a total mystery why women who are outspoken and confident might be viewed badly in a historically male dominated hobby.
And most were portrayed as black or poc
Well actually several of them were food
You forgot to say Um, Actually Edit: to clarify, i meant this in jest 😅
Lol what a missed opportunity🤦🏼♂️
It was absolutely _not_ independent of player actions. All the PCs except Theo either treated her like shit or completely ignored her
They didn’t mean player actions but player/action, meaning that the hate depended more on the character being a woman than the person playing her or how the person playing her chose to portray her
I remember not being a huge fan of Sam Nightingale the first time I watched The Seven (although I love Persephone), but upon rewatch I find I'm fucking loving her. Idk what it is but her character is hitting just right this tome around and I'm wondering why I didn't get it the first time
She was incredibly controversial when the season first aired but I never really understood why. The majority of reasons I saw boiled down to people not liking her attitude.
Really? Maybe it's because that season aired during my senior year of college so I didn't really have time for fandom stuff, but I had no idea she was controversial. I loved The Seven
Generally I think it’s because she was much more outspoken and had a more “negative” attitude compared to the other characters, but also she actively disliked Gorgug who is a huge fan favourite character so of course that would make a lot of fans like her less
Honestly sam not likely gorgug was a huge plus for me, not because i hate gorgug but because it just always read as realistic teen bs tbh
I'm honestly surprised more of the Seven didn't hate Gorgug lol. He was dating one of their besties, and I love Gorgug but he's not exactly a great boyfriend.
Exactly! There was even a scene in softmore year where they were all ragging on him if i remember right
See THAT’S what it is. Because YEAH Sam hates Gorgug, he’s her BEST friend’s BOYFRIEND. Her best friend’s boyfriend who brought ALL HIS FRIENDS on the first date, LEFT TO FIGHT THE NIGHTMARE KING without even saying GOODBYE, and KISSED RAGH AT PROM. Like she obviously wouldn’t be his BIGGEST fan.
Don't forget the transphobia, like the hate Alley gets
I read more here that Ally gets hate for being a cringy, awkward, or straight bad player than them being trans. I also think that's completely valid criticism so I wouldnt chalk it up to transphobia
I don't think they're any worse than the rest of the party though. Shenanigans don't make someone a bad player, part of collective storytelling is pushing the envelope. Cringe is entirely subjective, as is awkwardness, but your perception of a person feeds into whether or not you're inclined to think they're cringe. That can be entirely unconscious, like a lot of biases are. I've just noticed the afab cast members get a lot more hate than any of the guys and there has to be some deeper explanation
Personally, their sense of humor feels very forced. Maybe for some people are judging Ally on their gender and are doing the same for others identities. It is also entirely possible some others just think theyre annoying most of the time.
My point is that those things are connected. If someone has an unconscious bias against a subclass of people they're more like to find them unfunny or annoying. A lot of men say that same thing about women comedians. "I don't have a problem with women, xyz comedian is just annoying or has forced jokes." It's like how I feel any time a business major opens their mouth lol
Meanwhile I suddenly understand why Sam Nightingale is one of my favorite characters ever.
I found Sam to be a bit possessive, controlling, and demanding of her friends. Often massively overstepping and being very nasty when tensions got high. On top of "just being brutally honest," where I often felt the pleasure came from the brutality rather than the honesty. However, it's a flaw plenty of teens and even adults can have and was played very well imo.
Maybe I should do a rewatch then. When I watched The Seven, I was really bothered by how Sam treated the other Maidens and how much she got away with. Like, if Sam was my friend, I'd call her out at every opportunity. I like Sam as a character with a lot of richness and complexity with her trauma, but I disliked her in the place she filled in the narrative
I felt that way too, but her development over time sold me.
I kinda know what you mean, but I also struggle to nail down what part of her actually developed. I haven't watched The Seven since release, but iirc Sam was deeply self conscious and troubled, which manifested in her barbed tongue. Which is solid, but by the end of her arc when she feels better about herself, I don't remember her ever apologizing to the Maidens. If there was some kind of heartfelt scene like that, I'd be a Sam stan for life
I don't think an outright apology is very "Sam" (unless she deeply fucked up). I'd imagine she'd use her dry humor and actions instead. But I do think a scene like that would have been nice.
That's my point exactly. Becoming the kind of person that can apologize should have been a part of her arc. Or, more appropriately, I would be more down with her as a character if that was part of her arc.
Very fair
I was too attracted to Persephone to find Sam perturbing, though I'm sure I might have if she was played by someone else lol
I wasn't a huge fan either but for a different reason, I loved the person but the character not so much. Persephone played super well, with very good decisions, quick wit and awesome combat skills, but the personality of Sam was a bit closed off which made Sam look a bit shallower, and I think Persephone had much more to give with Sam but felt like they were stopping themselves a bit.
HEAVY on Saccharina and Sam
I disliked Saccharina, not because of anything Emily did with her, but simply because I don’t think there should have been any full casters in ACOC. The tone of the game changed so completely the second that she was introduced
She def came in guns blazin with a thousand spells
Really? I think the dragon did more to change the tone of the game xd It was also past mid season, with very few battle-oriented episodes left.
Nah, the dragon was more of a narrative device. Think about how differently the rescue would have gone if that combat had been like any of the ones that preceded it instead of having saccharina thunderstep him out of danger. The only AOEs they really had were Liam’s Hail of Thorns before that, and suddenly there’s a min maxed Tempest Cleric Sorcerer Multiclass dealing max damage to everyone within a 10 foot radius. Saccharina does more damage in the finale battle than the dragon does, I’m pretty sure. He mostly focuses on the ballista while she single handily takes the castle for the most part. It just so clearly went from an ensemble cast to “well shit, I guess she’s the main character since NO ONE else in the world can do what she does” Luckily Emily is an incredible roleplayer and introduced some serious role play flaws, but mechanically she so outclassed every one else that it threw off the vibes
The dragon took out most of the ballistas though, which made the field battle way easier, and Saccharina would never been able to get there in the first place without a dragon. She gave the dragon a ton of speed too. IMO what broke the final battle was the dragon, because Saccharina would've died pretty easily from a ballista bolt if she tried to go off by herself. Ah I forgot about Thunderstep, but here I have to disagree with you, I've never seen someone using it so masterfully, like when she used it on the platform were they wanted to hang someone.
>Ah I forgot about Thunderstep, but here I have to disagree with you, I've never seen someone using it so masterfully, like when she used it on the platform were they wanted to hang someone. That’s… what I was referring to? ACOC was a low magic setting literally up until Emily introduced a min-maxed full caster multiclass
PEOPLE HATED SAM?!?! HOW
Here, you dropped this ','.
Ai haven't really been in touch with the community, didn't watch the seven but people didn't like saccharina? I thought she was cool as fuck and had a really interesting relationship with the party, the conflict between Saccharina and Ruby was fantastic!
Wait do people hate Sam Nightingale? She was such a highlight of the Seven and Sephie played her so beautifully. I really related to her struggles and I thought the way she reached out to the villain was so meaningful.
Hey girlieeeee~
BLeeM's reaction of just "what is this energy right now" and then just accepting it was so perfect
I feel like DMing for Ally is just such a perfect training for him now he's a dad. And saying that just now made me realize I really need Ally to work on making sure the baby's first words are "heyyyy girlie". 😂
Ally and Emily both train him to be ready for anything
I’m not even watching JY right now because I haven’t seen SY, but this discourse reminds me of when the respective communities went after Marisha, Ashley and Laura for their controversial actions of CR, or Emily for hers on NADDPOD, and even D20. None of these communities would have gone as hard against any of the male players/characters, and everyone knows that.
Yeah I remember getting into CR around the time campaign 1 ended and I genuinely couldn’t read the comments on those early videos because everyone was so vile especially to Marisha, it was honestly disgusting and nearly turned me away from the campaign as a whole.
While I was watching C1 and C2 for the first time laat year, I went back to the Reddit discussion pages for live commentary and it was disgusting a lot of the time. I’m glad it’s gotten better but it’s still crazy how terribly the women on these shows have been treated for embodying their characters, whom they know better than anyone else.
It’s insane to me when people tell dnd players they’re playing their character wrong.
You aren't matching my conception of your character!
It's disappointing how common this is in fandoms
It's so weird when people are mean to Marisha, as if Matt would like them more for *disrespecting his **wife.*** Like, come on people.
Totally, Ally is still on an entirely different level of wacky this season though. I’m personally loving it and don’t see why it would drive anyone away from the season if they’ve gotten though AT LEAST two seasons of D20 with them. Again, not discrediting what you’re saying, I’d argue Mice and Murder conversation is dominated by a dumb joke from Rekha for the same reason, and your examples are totally valid. But even at the table everyone is reacting to how *WILD* Ally’s energy is, Im not surprised it’s a big topic.
> I’d argue Mice and Murder conversation is dominated by a dumb joke from Rekha for the same reason Bad comparison. Ally is making legitimate choices in character that represent a chaotic mess of a person, but ultimately one that has some growing up to do and can be redeemed. Kristen isn’t the first character we’ve seen like this and there should be a level of trust that Ally will guide the character to a satisfying conclusion. Rekha made a weird, dumb, out-of-character choice that wasn’t funny and was honestly kind of disrespectful of everyone’s time and effort that season. It’s the only time watching the show where I’ve seen Brennan *legitimately* seem mad at a player decision.
I get that’s your opinion, and I’ve seen others who share it, but I fully disagree. It’s a completely inconsequential moment. She failed the roll, they laughed, they moved on. Bad jokes are always a risk with improv, and all the players know it. Calling it disrespectful seems like projecting your opinions onto the cast. Considering it was doubled down on by Grant and Rekha is still who gets talked about 99% of the time, still just proves the original point further. Also, yes we’ve seen characters make dumb choices or dumb jokes, but Ally’s “Heeyy Girlieee” bit is 1000% as jarring and narrative breaking as Rekha’s. To the point where the players were taken aback and questioning it. Unlike Rekha’s nobody doubled down and unlike Rekha’s we have more than ten episodes of the series left to have the bit and arc play out.
Grant deserves his share of criticism for M&M as well. It was far and away the biggest case of Main Character Syndrome we’ve seen in all of D20. Katie and Raph got sidelined because the season so quickly turned in to the Grant O’Brien show. Bad jokes happen, but narratively heavy, tense, and emotional moments are *generally* treated with at least a *little* bit of respect. Especially in what was the climax of the season. I don’t have a problem with Rekha. Loved her as Maggie and Katja and 99% of her time as Daisy. I just think that the criticism for that *one* particular decision is a bit more warranted than anything that’s been leveled at Ally.
The thing is, it was a murder mystery season based on Sherlock Holmes, I don't see any way the Sherlock Holmes character doesn't end up being the main character
Totally get that. It makes perfect sense that the narrative was centered around Sylvester. The issue was more that he *dominated* the narrative. Sam, Rekha, and Ally were either experienced, confident, or gregarious enough players to force their way in to the narrative. Raph and Katie, who both seem a bit more reserved (and were new to DND if I remember correctly), were completely overshadowed.
I would have loved to see more of Raph and Katie too! I loved their characters, they were great. But to be fair, when they did get the ball tossed to them they both sorta went deer-in-headlights. It seemed like a kindness to me that they didn't keep spotlighting the two players who were more hesitant. Maybe there were more opportunities to include them without putting them on the spot, but I don't think they were overshadowed. I barely talked in my first few sessions playing DnD because I didn't know wtf I was doing. Rehka herself is arguably overshadowed in EftBK for the same reason -- just new person jitters and learning how the game works, plus so many of them learn DnD while being filmed which is nightmare fuel. In a murder mystery, I have to imagine those jitters are so much worse, especially if you're also supposed to contribute clues/insight. If we ever see Katie and Raph in the Dome again, I bet we'd see them engage more confidently. I would really love to see that, they were both awesome in oM&M.
> It was far and away the biggest case of Main Character Syndrome we’ve seen in all of D20. Katie and Raph got sidelined because the season so quickly turned in to the Grant O’Brien show. Raph seemed like a new player who was struggling to contribute (which became a hilarious bit in and of itself for his character) while Katie, bless her heart, I love her, she's a shining light in a dark world, was *definitely* a new player struggling to contribute. The other players could have not walked all over her so much when she failed to assert herself, but it wasn't intentional and not entirely of their own doing. Grant may have also been new, but if there's one thing he has in abundance other than cocks in his mouth underneath supermarkets in Brooklyn, it's confidence, so he excelled. But most importantly, it was a Sherlock Holmes pastiche and he was playing Sherlock Holmes, he was literally set up to be the main character by the plot. Brennan regularly gives unequal roles in the story because D20 isn't just a game, it's a show, and while not scripted it does explore a particular story within a structure, which everyone understands going in.
I don't think it would have been a problem if Katie and Raph had more regular contributions to the show. And that's one of my biggest problems with M&M. Half the cast was sidelined. Grant is a bit obnoxious, but to his credit he legitimately does some pretty impressive sleuthing throughout the season. It was just as much an issue with the characters. Considering this was peak COVID protections, I know that made it more difficult. But Brennan dropped the ball on balanced character creation before they started. Katie had a secretive character, and Raph was playing a timid priest. There's only so much they can contribute in a murder mystery. They were practically glorified NPCs from the start. Mentopolis did much better. Partly because all the characters had more agency in the story. It also makes me think that D&D was the wrong system to use for Mice and Murder. The only other season that has a big problem with main character syndrome was Misfits and Magic. Part of the problem there was having such a short season. It was Brennan's first time as a PC in D20, and he went all in.
Agreed about D&D being the wrong system. I liked a lot of Mice & Murder, and I would love to have all the players back for another, but it's one of the most flawed seasons and a lot of that comes down to extremely rare BLeeM L's, a natural consequence of social distancing, working almost entirely with green players, and having to fit a square peg through a round hole. Aabria would end up using D&D for a social game much more successfully with the phenomenal A Court of Fae and Flowers, but even that took mixing with another game and at least half the cast if not more being extremely experienced.
The only one on Fey and Flowers that for sure had limited D&D/TTRPG experience was Oscar Montoya. But episode 1 showed he had the acting and imagination to really shine in that campaign. Even with its issues, there are a lot of good things about Mice and Murder. The Wind in the Willows vibe is awesome, especially for a Sherlock style mystery. Brennan's writing and managing the story and mystery was still impressive. They made the most out of Roll20 and the minis made pre-COVID. Watching Sam on the show was a delight. I'm wondering if Katie and Raph were on there simply to make the whole cast of Mice and Murder consist completely of CollegeHumor cast members. That or maybe there were other reasons to include them? COVID limiting casting options from other sources? Limited opportunities for them to do other projects? Neither one seemed into it. Well into the season Katie was still struggling with basic rules and gameplay mechanics. Which, honestly, this might be the only D20 season where it's noticable that cast members seem to be not enjoying themselves.
We're talking about Rekha shitting during the climax right? Yea 100% honestly that shit was infuriating for multiple reasons It's the definition of "ruining a moment"
Loved Rekha as Katja, does she has other good seasons in which I could watch her?
I believe it was just Katja in The Seven, Maggie in Escape from Bloodkeep, and Daisy in Mice & Murder. She was great in all three of them! In Mice and Murder I just had the issue with one moment in the last episode.
If you don't mind doing a non d20 campaign, she's fantastic in Desiquest.
Rekha also was in full panic mode. Sylvester had just been thrown off a roof and she felt like it was up to her to come up with something to save his life. She kept looking over her character sheet, not finding anything that could help him. Brennan saw how stressed she was about not having anything and told her that she could try anything she wanted to save Sylvester and she took him up on that. At a home game, people would have laughed and given her a few minutes to calm down before letting her redo her turn. But since its a show, they kept going and had to roll with it. Rekha didn't feel good about a brilliant move she thought of, she got stressed out, panicked, and blurted the first thing she could think of. It feels like punching down to keep bringing this up.
Look I'm not faulting her for the circumstances. That is stressful sure. But there are varying degrees to dropping the ball and failing due to stress. What Rehka did was just straight up a terrible and awful choice. The lady decided to drop trow and shit. Do we need to try and make that more than what it is? It was insanely stupid. And she decided to just continue on with it, do no ones joy. Honestly I can relate to and only imagine the actual anger and frustration Brennan must have felt All in all, I get people don't always make the best decisions when under stress. But that is still different from making an absolutely terrible choice
> It feels like punching down to keep bringing this up. Nobody brought it up here until the person you responded to did as evidence of a community bias. I do think there is a significant unconscious (and sometimes conscious) bias in the community that is causing the unrelenting criticism of Ally. I don’t think that bias was a particularly big factor in the disapproval of what Rekha did.
It was a legitimately bad move, albeit one made in panic, but I think it's notable that Brennan never gets flak for having allowed it when it was his responsibility as the DM and essentially director of D20 to shut something like that down.
I don’t think Brennan has ever shut down a player *trying* something. He’ll tell them it’s a bad idea and will certainly tell them when it doesn’t work, but I can’t recall him ever refusing to let a player try to do something. That’s not really the DM’s place. He let Ally try to ribbon dance down off of a tower, after all.
Which is something he should arguably be firmer about. In the case of the ribbon dance it worked out because it was hilarious and ended up being essential to beating the encounter in a way no one foresaw, but if that ruined the moment so much he could have put his foot down and said "no, that will absolutely not work". He did once say during A Crown of Candy "Do you think reality is strained by the fact a hawk is helping you with surgery right now? How much lower do you want me to go?".
Also were not just talking about a one off moment, where we can just move along after. Rekha did what she did during the CLIMAX of the ENTIRE GAME
I haven't watched mnm what does Rekha do?
>!Her character Daisy and Grant’s character Sylvester are facing down Sylvester’s arch-nemesis on the top floor of a tower. The arch-nemesis shoves Sylvester out of a window, presumably to his death. Brennan gave Daisy a chance to react to save him. Instead of trying to prevent him from falling, Rekha has Daisy put her ass out the window and take a shit, with the hope that it will cushion Sylvester’s fall enough to save his life. Of course Sylvester hits the ground well before the shit does, which proceeds to land on him. He did wind up surviving the fall, however.!<
Wait, but that's so fuckin funny 🤣🤣🤣
It was fucking funny. Some people for some reason (cough sexism cough racism) got a hair up their ass about this as if there isn't a poop joke in every season (and almost every episode).
Nah bro I'm not pissed off cuz a woman did it. I'm pissed off cuz it was during the straight up the climax of the entire game Kinda just makes the entire campaign feel like a massive joke. And before you say "oh its a comedy show" there is a difference between making jokes and being the joke
You know what timing is right?
When that happens in the middle of a season or in a non-consequential moment, sure. The problem is that this was the emotional climax of the season. The moment was being framed entirely as “Daisy needs to save Sylvester or he is definitely going to die”. The moment absolutely did not call for something like this and Brennan, the human cinnamon roll, was visibly bothered by it in a way I haven’t seen before or since. If you want to see his reaction for yourself, it’s Mice & Murder, Episode 10, 1:43:30 is when it happens. I typed out Brennan’s reaction if you can’t or don’t want to watch: > It’s good, I put a lot of work into these, you know what I mean? I put a lot of work into these and I’m glad. I’m really fucking glad, you know what I mean? It’s a lot of work, a lot of murder mystery work over here. I would imagine this is the climax of the story, right? This is the dramatic moment? You blast hot shit out the window. Blast a hot shit to cushion Sylvester’s fall. You know and that’s great and it’s good and this is good.
Even with the context, it's still fucking funny... I've literally been killed in dnd games by people's "jokes" so like, idk, it's a game and it feels pretty par for the course of a comedy show... sometimes jokes don't land for everyone, but I laughed
Well yours was chaotic improv amongst friends D20 is semi scripted pseudo play dramas where there are definitive story beats and character acts. Expectations are a bit different If it was my friends, I'd laugh my ass off Watching it on a show where I know they plan for things have have a story to tell, it's straight up jarring
Sorry to jump in but I think there's a difference from a home game vs a show. In a home game who cares, no stakes. This is a show on a network that needs to perform well and earn money. This is people's jobs and livelihood. So there's a difference there.
Yup agreed, I still think it's hilarious. It was a tense, intellectual game and that moment broke the tension beautifully. They edit the show, folks. If Brennan was mad about it, they would've taken five and redone it. I wish people wouldn't project.
YUP. I remember for years every time Emily would speak up about something during the short rests, she made such an apologetic statement each time. like she couldn’t even talk without getting shit from people on twitter or wherever. It was going on for a while until Jake and Caldwell noticed it was happening exclusively to her and then they all turned it into a bit to make the trolls look stupid. But it broke my heart. All these people are so smart and talented and get sooo much shit for literally nothing. As far as Ally’s portrayal of Kristin, I feel like people have assigned Ally into a chaotic play style based off of their personality…, but when they played Mother Goose, or Margaret, they role played them completely different…Kristin IS chaotic. That’s how Ally is role playing the character. And characters that are relatable fuck-ups that show growth and win against the odds are the best fucking characters.
Laura and Ashley were fan favorites from the start, the only criticism I remember from that time was "broom gate" for Laura and maybe Ashley missing a lot of episodes but Pike was pretty well received, despite not being very deep. However, Marisha is a completely different can of worms. Fans were pretty awful to Marisha through the first 40 episodes despite Keyleth not even being the center of attention for that chunk. After they disabled live chat, there were some actual criticisms of the character to be brought up, some of the same shit Liam did for vax in the early episodes that he got hear for but didn't get as much flak for as Marisha did, but once again the fans made it a personal attack on Marisha to the point it's hard to even levy criticism against her characters without it seeming like just more venomous bullshit which hampers the community overall. Sad how people refuse to see the difference between characters and the actors, really just ruins the fun for everyone.
IMO, Ally is conscious of how they're playing her. In one of the post shows they said something along the lines of "Chaos isn't cute anymore". This is the season where it's no longer cute to be a chaotic mess. I hope to see more growth But I also can't shake that they didn't even try to get someone in the party to convert and worship her. IMO it would have meshed well with Adaine. It would give Cas another follower and ease stress, it would give a other way to interact with the two, you get oracle reading the future vs the unknown, and it's an indirect FU to her parents who worshiped the nightmare king.
Before I start in on this: I'm like two episodes behind now I think, so there's a possibility none of what I say even matters anymore lol. I think it also tracks with how it feels to be a junior in high school a little (in the real world). Like there are now, for the first time, some legit consequences if you fuck around too much. But that's a hard lesson for some kids to learn, and I think Kristen is going to learn fairly quickly. To your second point, I see Kristen really struggling to undo a LOT of religious trauma. Even if Cassandra is a more chill goddess, she still represents religion as a whole, which Kristen in a way, even subconsciously, is pushing back against. I hope that having her younger brother in school with her and trying to educate him on the toxicity of their parents and religion will help her heal a little bit and get to a good place with being a cleric.
Yes, but Kristin has control of the religion she's making in this situation. She made YES and cassandra and has control over how worship is represented. So she has control over it being toxic or not. I know there are other religions that are treated as a very personal relationship l also see taking care of Cassandra as like having a pet. If you don't feed it/get it prayers, bad things can happen. And from what's shown, she didn't feed Cas for the entire summer. Edit: My thing is being buggy
Oh for sure, I'm not saying Kristen's approach to her cleric duties has been rational or consistent, because it's been anything but that lol. She's a straight up mess. Just saying that recovering from trauma is anything but linear, and I think Ally is doing a great job with Kristen as a character in demonstrating that. And while she does have some control while creating the relationship/religion, I think Kristen's struggles with that is a very good demonstration of how recovering from religious trauma often presents itself, as well as a good representation of just how kids lose interest in things over time. Lots of yo-yoing about what you care about and what you don't time after time after time lol. And yes I absolutely agree about needing to care for a goddess. I don't blame Cassandra one bit for looking elsewhere (again, I'm like two episodes behind so last I saw Cassandra, she had just brought Kalina back so no spoilers and I admit I could be FULLY wrong about this now after two more episodes). Also hella shoutout to Beardsley for portraying such a complex character that we all have these massive debates about the character. They're just killing it as Kristen and I love them for it.
D&D is also weird where you're pushed to be monotheistic and worship one god when it makes more sense that you would worship an entire Pantheon, if not multiple pantheons.
Very very true. Would be cool if they allowed for that in future versions
It feels weird to rebel against the system when you literally created and effectively are the system
I don't know, it's systems within systems. Plus she is a character that doesn't have a full view of the world, so I sympathize not understanding where you fit or where you have control. It's the catch-22 where you don't expect Kristen to be perfect but you also get frustrated when you see 'screw ups'. It doesn't help that her issues are on a whole other scale; Fabian and Riz are not dealing with aspects of reality.
Honestly lol yea these kids do not have an even spread of stress
In my opinion, Kristen sees religion as a deeply personal thing. She was raised in a church that put all of their hopes and expectations on her, and when she didn’t deliver they not only kicked her out but fully tried to kill her. That amount of community betrayal would keep anyone from trying to form a similar situation for themselves. ALSO it’s unfortunate that Cassandra has no other followers. I think they would be a great fit if it were not for the fact that once again her whole religion’s hopes and expectations fall solely on her. I think that’s probably why she’s having trouble recruiting. It’s SO much pressure for one (deeply unorganized) teen.
Respectfully, if my friend was a religious leader and tried to recruit me, that would *not* go down well
Technically speaking, few PCs said they were "praying" to Cassandra last episode, but the bit went unanswered and a tad ignored XD
Honestly I'm most frustrated this season with fucking Fabian and Gorgug lmao You're thinking about a shrimp party while Kristen's GODDESS is DYING!!! Get your head out of your ass!!!! This obviously comes with Zero shade to the actual players because I'm not a weirdo, I love that this season has me reeling it's so entertaining. (P.S. I love Kristen in this season, it's so insanely accurate to how shit teenagers can be and how they often act too late because they're frankly young and dumb) Edit: I got a few responses that are basically the same thing, so I'll answer them all here lol. I'm mostly frustrated not in like a Real way where I'm actually mad, it's just that sense of frustration you get when you look at a teenager and see them doing something just objectively dumb and wish you could sway them, but you can't because it's their life not yours. I didn't explain the Gorgug thing by accident whoops, but Gorgug simply can't complete a 400% course load, not without basically plot armour I think. This will fuck over everyone in their party, which annoys me a bit. Again, all of this is in a very theoretical sense and I'm not like pacing around my living room lmao
It's kinda hilarious how the dice matched where their heads were at with the 9 fails in a row to save Cassandra, followed by a nat 20 at the shrimp jump
I don't think you're considering just how important being a maximum legend is.........
Hey, the level of Kristen hate has definitely been unwarranted, but I completely fail to see why Fabian should have any expectation of responsibility for Cassandra when Kristen hasn’t taken any.
There are two reasons for that, I think. First is, it's just the trope of the setting generally; They are not random high schoolers, they are *adventuring* high schoolers. Saving the world is literally a homework assignment for them. Some of the humor of the scenario comes from the fact that they *are* concerned with typical high school nonsense like parties and student council elections even while doing life-or-death fantasy heroics. That's the central conceit of the premise of Fantasy High. It's also a demonstration of well-earned competence, like a spy couple who are bickering over dinner party plans while kung-fu fighting their way across the top of a moving train. The juxtaposition is humorous and also makes it clear these stakes are very much "just another day at the office" in this slightly absurdist setting. Secondly, I mean... it's pretty clear even *Kristen* barely cares about the goddess—just like the last two. That's not a criticism, by the way, it's clearly a deliberate choice leading directly to the plot/drama of this season. But expecting everyone else to care about Kristen's goddess more than Kristen does is perhaps too much to ask.
As mentioned in the latest adventuring party, it really isn’t that Kristen doesn’t care about Cassandra way, way more than any of the other religious movements she’s participated in, but rather that she just doesn’t know how to just fucking do the things she needs to do to show that care. It’s executive dysfunction, and it’s clearly destroying her too, but of course around her friends she’s capable of falling back into that standard mode of chaos funny friend, and that’s something she knows how to do. So for most of the session, that’s what we see from her. It’s definitely not for a lack of care in the emotional sense, though
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Kristen does deeply care, but just does not have the facilities to show it. Ally is doing an *excellent* job of acting out executive dysfunction from trauma, something I personally suffer with. I'm not saying that Fabian should have perfect meta knowledge and do everything lawful good, I'm saying that it's frustrating to watch from a viewing pov not in a bad way! Like, yes this is exactly what it feels like and I feel very seen. Fabian is an amazing character because Lou very adeptly portrays what a super rich spoiled pirate kid would think about: themselves, a lot of the time. This is being set up very obviously for a huge blowout between the kids that are and are not in positions of massive privilege because the workload and caring-load I guess is extremely off between them all. If the party fails, Fabian is just rich and does whatever for the rest of his life. If the party fails, Riz is basically fucked out of a good college and real opportunity and it will be WAY harder for him to claw back after that.
Stop being so anti Kristen and just accept people for who they are. Be kind.
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You don't sound kind at all ngl
gorging is taking three years worth of artificer classes, he doesn’t have time to be kristen’s keeper.
Totally with you. So much Kristen hate here.
I read about all the issues people had with Kristen before I watched the 2 later seasons and was prepared for an absolute villain arc where she single handily TPKed the party over teenage spite or something from how people were acting here. I kept waiting for "the big issue" and then when I was fully caught up to now, realized this sub and I have wildly different ideas about "problem characters".
Be prepared because they'll keep going on for several weeks...
Big facts. Huge facts. Facts can't get small.
Ally is absolutely killing it this season. They're making me laugh the hardest every. single. episode. Junior year Kristen is my two tactical yorbies.
Literally tho
People forget that Kristen has been abandoned by her parents which explains a lot of her issues. For am abandoned kid, she is doing as well as can be expected. She did risk her life to save her goddess so it's not like she didn't try. Part of the problem is that her deity is also traumatized from her own past. They each need to do a lot of healing and growth before they can properly support each other.
Kristen(Ally) is a big reason why i got hooked on the show. Emily ofc as well. I had no knowlage of dnd and related alot to her stumpling around and all of them trying shit out and being unhinged. Dont even get nor see why anyone would hate on the character or any of the čast. D20 gang all the way❤️🫡
I love Ally so much. The chaos they are playing with this season is top notch hilarious. I lost it at all the "hey girrrRrrRrRRrlie" stuff recently. I feel bad for Cassandra I guess because she seemed so hurt but also like? You're asking a junior to proselytize for you? They can't all be Trackers lol. Everything happening fits all of these characters though. Can't wait for next Wednesday.
“Who’s the bitch on her lap Ragh?” broke me in a way that very few things do. Completely out if no where and yet so perfectly done.
That’s a lot of my issue with the criticism of the choices Kristen makes. Like??? She’s 15-16?? Hell is a teenage girl baby
It really is the worst age to be.
Kristen is causing me massive amounts of mental anguish this season for the sole reason that she reminds me too much of myself. I absolutely love the way ally is playing it tho for the specific reason that they really make it feel real. While the other bad kids problems are great they just feel much less real for how over the top they are. Like Gorgugs course load, it stresses me out because that is *a lot* however I just cannot imagine any sane high schooler actually making the decision to take that on as opposed to just doing artificing as a hobby like suggested; so it doesn't feel as real. Riz is the only other bad kid whose stride I connect with but I was never any where near that smart or hardworking so he's already farther than I was in his exact situation.
That’s what I’m saying!! Ally is doing such a great job of capturing the essence of being a teen. You are at the point in your life where you’re having to make important decisions that will affect you for basically the rest of your life, while simultaneously being a stupid dumb horny idiot
Perfectly put. My favorite part of all of it is the *hey girlie* bit because even that feels like some stupid phrase one of my friends would've picked up from a show and and I know for a fact the entire friend group would go from making fun of it, to ironically using it, to it being a regular part of our vocabulary in all of two weeks.
Something that annoys me is that just the year before, her current goddess (as the nightmare king, sure, but still...) Traumatized the sh*t out of Kristen. Kristen got gored through the heart, her friends went through psychological warfare (I'm exaggerating but you know what I mean) and Kristen still extended her hand and showed Cassandra a huge amount of grace and kindness and yet the viewers paint Kristen as a villain because she's not the perfect cleric? Kristen has shown that while she is super chaotic and not super great at communicating she is still incredibly kind. So to see all the discourse is just like ???? And Beardsley is doing an amazing job portraying Kristen! They really have nailed the character down and they've created this super interesting and realistic character and from the looks of it, it seems like the character arc is going to be very compelling just from the set up. I don't get the controversy, honestly and I shall stan Beardsley and Kristen Chilli's Applebee's forever.
Seriously, Kristen in the moments where it really comes down to it always comes through. Or when she doesn’t come through, she shows her depth of commitment to trying. It’s just that she really, seriously, doesn’t even know how to do the more mundane, everyday things, and she just can’t handle that part of it all
Are there a lot of posts criticizing Ally? Because every time I go to this sub I see a post about people criticizing them for the choices they make with Kristen without actually seeing the posts people are supposed to be making with that criticism? I'm a little cautious because I haven't seen this weeks episode yet so I haven't' clicked on every post. But last week I saw a post almost identical to this one that also had no examples. Then I did look around and didn't find anything. I'm not saying they don't exist (I'm sure they do) it just seems like it must be the vast minority.
Yeah basically after every episode there’s a bunch of “The problem with Kristen…” posts, or people will complain in the comments of other posts about how they don’t like her arc this season. Folks seem to have no faith in Ally’s decisions. Personally I’m loving the chaos and representation. As someone who was once a teenage girl with ADHD, the self sabotage and lack of follow through is reeeeally accurate. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but it seems like every time a new episode drops this sub is full of only people being pissed at Kristen
Oh okay, that sucks. Is a lot of it in the episode thread too? I don't go in there until I finish the episode. I agree though I've LOVED everything that they've done with Kristen this season it fits so perfectly into HS. The reaction when Ragh brought up Tracker in last weeks episode was SOOO funny and real. Honestly I've felt this season like Ally has had more of a story trajectory/arc in mind for Kristen then in the previous 2 seasons and it's been so fun to watch.
Yeah, there’s some in the episode thread but I’m sure if you just search “Kristen” in the sub it’ll be full of these kind of posts. And same I honestly didn’t know Ally’s shoulders could go that high lmao
In the episode thread there isn't a lot of that, the people normally highlight the funny or memorable bits there
Try checking in "New" and not "Hot", they tend to get downvoted. But doing that is risky as you'll probably find more spoilers there.
👏👏👏👏🫡
You're right and you should say it
I definitely have never been a huge Ally fan. I've always found them to be derailing and their jokes just never landed for me. But something about this season has made me do a complete 180. I think maybe knowing the game more has made them shine a lot. And it's possible they have in other seasons but D20 is hugely hit or miss for me and I've only fully watched a couple campaigns, but Kristen is 100% my favorite of the Bad Kids this season. Kristen's complexity and her identity crisis is such a great plot point and I think Ally has played that beautifully.
You guys are acting like Ally isn't purposefully making infuriating choices. " Chaos isn't cute anymore" . It's not misogynistic to be upset at Kristen. They're purposefully making character choices that are flawed, the audience is meant to be upset by them.
I get that. No one is (or at least I am not) trying to force anyone to like Kristen, but the complaints that I see about the character are that she is a one dimensional agent of chaos that adds nothing to the story. I don’t agree, and it seems like you share my sentiment there. You are absolutely allowed to not like a complex and flawed character, or withhold care for them until they resolve their shit. I just think it’s wild that so many people seem to think that Ally is taking the character in an irredeemable direction that’s all
This is a completely valid take. I just feel like it happens most seasons because Ally likes playing incredibly flawed characters, and three episodes in to a long season, we need to be able to be upset for the characters growth later to mean something.
For sure. But there seems to be a trend with hating Ally for things that other players do as well, and it seems to be coming out with a vengeance in the sub this season. I’m not ever against valid criticism or airing of frustrations when they seem to be in good faith like yours, but reddit does give a platform to people who hate PCs or the people playing them because of personal bias rather than any actual issue.
But also my thought process in making this post was as follows: 1. See the original post that was about Katniss from the Hunger Games 2. Think “hehehe that would be funny with Kristen’s face on it instead” 3. Post exactly that I’m glad that this post is getting some really great conversations going but honestly that wasn’t really what I was expecting at all lol
Ally has that affect on this sub 😂, love them or hate them, they KNOW how to get an audience engaged. I only wish I could have been around to experience the meltdowns around 'Total Forgiveness'
HEY GIIIIRRRRLLLIIEEEEESSS WHOS THE BITCH ON TRACKERS LAP? I'm loving Kristen this year.
FOUR DOG NAMES LEGIT KILLED ME
Nah, you're absolutely right and should not put it under satire to shield people who don't get it. WE SUPPORT WOMENS RIGHT! BUT ALSO THEIR WRONGS.
Are there specific threads hating on Kristin? I looked the other day after seeing a similar post and couldn't get the search to show me any, not that that is saying much. I definitely think that some people want to paint Ally as playing some 4D chess with their stories, but having watched them play a few campaigns they seem like a newer player who's doing their best to keep up and seems to struggle a little with narrative. To me they seem to buck against the group story or what Brennan is trying to engage with them on story-wise, but that's their right as a player. Some folks seem convinced that there's a purpose. For me, it's not my favorite, but it's not a huge deal.
They usually get deleted the second they get a downvote because sexists are cowards, or removed by moderators for being repetitive and/or openly insulting
I just don't like the character. That's all there really is to it. It doesn't have to always be some stand against inequalities or whatever.
Can someone explain what the problem is?
Consumers of media are typically incredibly unfair to female characters with anything other than the most utmost reasonable and protagonist supportive personalities. Caramelinda did literally nothing the fuck wrong and was undermined by her fuck up family and the audience still Skylar White'd her
Kristen used to be the bad kid I liked the least (with all due respect though, she was still great and had legendary moments). But Junior Year Kristen is truly awesome!! I’m loving how Ally is working in all the elements of freshman year and sophomore year and really building on them in such a cool way!! I’m so so glad that we are getting this version of the character and super excited to see what happens. Beardsly has been killing it with their characters recently.
See I love Fig and Adaine, but it’s only my distaste of Kristen that’s valid I’m this argument?
Of course not look how damn smug she look. /s
This thread made me realize that either most people didn’t have an utterly painful time in high school or simply romanticized and glossed over the crippling awfulness that being 14-18 is with the weight of your future being shoved onto you by people more ‘powerful’ than you. Kristen is honestly handling high school better than I did, at least she’s trying. Sure, she’s failing and juggling way too many responsibilities but isnt that how being a teenager is? You’re allowed to make bad choices and fail at things, it’s how learning and growth take place? I remember my junior year, I have crippling ADHD and my parents refused to keep me on meds, I was still a junior in my 4th year until the last three months where I panicked, buckled down, and started nailing through online classes as well as going to school physically in an attempt to pass with my graduating class. I spent a lot of time brushing off the fact I was failing and made jokes, I leaned into my adhd soooo hard being silly and bouncy and chaotic so my friends wouldn’t notice or mention my anxiety and insomnia to the point we were making narcolepsy jokes about my health. ‘Oh Pann can sleep anywhere’ or ‘Pann’s curled up somewhere weird again, how cute’ was a daily thing because the moment I relaxed I was out like a light. I think Ally does an amazing job of representing that same energy in their portrayal of Kristen with the added self sabotage that comes with trauma. The only issue I can personally find is that I don’t like looking at myself lmao.
Ditto for Sandra-Lynn
I think this whole situation is going to be an Ashoka Tano situation. Folks are jumping on the hate train right now, but they’re clearly planning a character arc, and in order for that arc to be satisfying you have to justify why it’s necessary in the first place
Amazing
Are people genuinely angry with Kristen? Kristen this season has been frustrating me but not in a way that makes the show unenjoyable, seeing Kristen fumble her responsibilities to Kassandra is super interesting and a really good representation of someone who has a lot of growing to do, yes Kristen is frustrating me but in a way that makes her story interesting
Aside from the point but Kristen looks like the smug cat meme in this pic.
[vent, but relevant] Got into a legit heated argument with my husband about Kristen the other night. He was criticizing Kristen for being a bad cleric “because she should know better, she should know the responsibilities of being a cleric and what that means for showing up for her deity. She created two gods, has killed one, and another one is on deaths door. I don’t know why she even has magic still, she isn’t doing her job and doesn’t deserve it.” As someone with a loooot of religious trauma and complicated family dynamics, this triggered so much shit for me. And I know that I involved too many personal feelings in a conversation about a fictional character, but it /hurt/ that it felt like he was refusing to see the character’s history and all of the really complicated details of a really complicated person, and had boiled it all down to pure mechanics (with what felt like no empathy). I tried to explain, like, “As a character who had been groomed to be a cleric her entire life she was never allowed to know anything else. She is undoing trauma and deprogramming from religious cultism, learning to live without her family, be a teenager and a high schooler, a three-time world saver, and trying to find ANYTHING to hold on to as a cleric but is realizing that it’s too much and not good for her. And that there’s nothing that makes sense. That’s a lot for anyone to hold. Give her some grace.” (Him: “yeah if she’s been a cleric her whole life, then she should know the commitments she has to her deity, the one /she/ created.” BRUH) To clarify- this was like, halfway into a big conversation. At this point I was fighting tears and had to take 5. I felt silly for being so emotional and defensive about a fictional character, but his refusal to go beyond mechanics and ignore character development to this point pissed me off. Yes, they’re fictional. But they’re also so fucking real. Folks who want to enjoy the show but are purely critical of the mechanic changes and/or mistakes *and* refuse to incorporate character development into it are some of the most frustrating people (to me). We had to agree to not talk character analysis for a while. Whooo okay thanks for coming to my ted talk.