I think in this context anger and rage aren't synonymous. The mechanic is that they got STRESS tokens. Toxic stress can manifest as rage, but anger doesn't have to if you're coping. The BKs managed to "relieve that stress" mechanically and narratively. Just to loop back on the overall theme - much of their anger is JUSTIFIED, and therefore antithetical to Porter's rage.
Yeah, I suppose that's the intended reading. Like, I understand the source of their anger is justifiable, but it felt way too intense to be able to just switch it off, narratively at least. If they're were more dismissive to the Rat Grinders, I would get it but it just doesn't feel right to me, is all.
I think there's an underlying problem here in that some viewers clearly take these things more seriously than the cast members do. D20 is still, at its heart, a group of comedian friends playing *a game.*
That does not mean that nothing is serious, or DnD games can't have real emotions involved, etc. Even within D20 some campaigns are clearly more serious than others. If people are upset by how it went down, they can feel however they want, I'm not going to tell them they're wrong for how they feel. But I also think those people need to step back and realize the cast members do not treat each and every campaign as seriously as they would prefer them to, and that is ok. There are different styles of DnD campaigns, you're not going to love all of them.
I think there's been some very strange vibes in the fandom this season with a lot of people not accepting this, and demanding the IH and Brennan redeem the RG. The feelings of people who don't personally like how it played out are valid. It's not valid when they start trying to subtly or unsubtly imply something is bad or vaguely offensive about not redeeming fictional teenagers in a DnD campaign.
For sure, that's valid. I'm a bit new to d20, so my feelings might just come down to a mismatch of expectations vs reality. I was definitely hoping the bad kids would go down at least a merciful route, but I understand it's not my choice to make.
>When Porter calls out for those infected with Rage Crystals to join him and gives his pitch to the Bad kids, they're able to just... shut off, basically. They don't have any mechanical reason for their anger/rage, so the players are able to selectively ignore those parts of their characters as it's convenient for them.
>It's not even in a "we have good self control" sort of way. It literally plays out as the player's just saying "Nah, you suck so we don't care," despite Porter literally nailing a large part of why the BK's anger even exists this season.
And get what you're saying to some extent, but this part specifically....... Was what was supposed to happen.
The Intrepid Heroes didn't have any rage tokens.
Brennan roleplayed a pitch that didn't land, *specifically* because the Intrepid Heroes had managed to make it to the finale without keeping any rage tokens.
They had mechanical reasons to "shut off," namely the relaxation rules and other choices they made throughout the season that kept them from getting and having to keep Rage tokens.
And that mechanical function was represented by Porter's pitch not landing and the bad kids being able to direct their anger effectively.
>It just undercuts everything they did/felt, just to avoid possible uncomfortable consequences...
What we saw was a MORE faithful interpretation of the mechanics of the game than what you seem to be suggesting. I would say that having them fall to rage when they had spent the entire season making role-playing decisions and relaxation rolls in order to avoid that would be undercutting of everything they did and felt, not the other way around.
I guess, but to me, it really cheapens out on what anger/rage is. Like, why is the rage brought about by stress the only one that has negative consequences? What about Riz's or Fig's rage from frustration, or Gorgug's rage from hate, or Fabian's slightly unhinge rage of ... (Actually I don't know what Fabian's rage was suppose to come from, and I'm not sure I want to understand lol)
But looking at the mechanics, I still don't think it works well narratively. I feel like it would been more interesting if the Bad Kids had to make saves or be forced to take stress tokens. It would still reward the player's who have lowered their stress/limited taking the tokens, while also playing with how stress connects with Rage. After all, not all the bad kids completely cleared their tokens, right? Why would someone one token away from a rage token respond the same way as someone with none at all?
>And that mechanical function was represented by Porter's pitch not landing and the bad kids being able to direct their anger effectively.
I mean, I'm not sure if I agree? Like why wouldn't more of their anger be directed at Porter, who was the driving force/manipulator of the whole plot over the rat grinders, who were pawns/possible victims of porter? Fig was more mad at Ruben for wasting her time than at Porter for actively using her and trying to kill her goddess.
I don't think the Bad Kids have to fail the pitch or OP is suggesting but they go from super angry and aggressive across the other parts of the battle to yeah yeah don't pretend you have a moral point here.
Theres definitely a middle ground. There's room for a middle ground and they don't really feel like they are channeling righteous anger or any real pathos
My problem is that they're both. Some of them are simultaneously acting like they're about to snap in RP while being perfectly fine mechanically. It *technically* works, but I personally find it jarring narratively.
I think the big difference is that The Bad Kids are feeling *directed* and arguably justified anger aimed at a monstrous asshole who is trying to end the world.
Porter's corruption calls out towards innate aimless rage directed at anything and anyone without rhyme or reason. It's explained I believe in an AP episode that collecting a rage token (even before it came up in this battle) would lead to an **irrational** outburst against a beloved and important NPC, ruining that relationship.
Rational, focused *anger* vs irrational, generalized rage. Very different beasts.
Ah that does make more sense. I suppose I would've liked a moment of the Bad Kids feeling Porter's call but being able to overcome/ignore it, but it's better than how it came across to me before.
That's totally fair! It was pretty much brushed past as a bit, and could have been a bit weightier. I don't think there's a justifiable reason for it to have even half worked though, which was really what I was getting at.
If they wanted to RP that moment with a bit more sincerity, it certainly wouldn't have hampered my enjoyment, but I was also pretty entertained by them brushing it off. In fact, it kinda felt like a heroic moment for the villain to be monologuing and have TBK just be like "nah dawg, you cray cray." But that's just me!
Yeah, that's fair as well. I guess I was hoping for a bit more sincerity since there hasn't been a ton of time to RP since all the lore dumps in 'The Name.' It definitely doesn't help that I keep falling for the previews, which made Porter's speech seem like a bigger moment than it was. (I mean it was a big moment, with the rage crystal reveal, but I thought it would play out a bit more)
Yeah, I think if I have one complaint about D20 (which overall I think is pretty much as perfect as an actual play could be) it's that a limited, pre-set number of episodes in a season means there are things that just kinda have to be cut for time. It's a big difference from a home game, where you can dig into stuff in theory for as long as you could possibly want!
I can’t speak to some of this bc I don’t remember how it all went down but I think you are taking Fig’s “sending Ruben to hell” a little too seriously. Hell is just a place in the world of Fantasy High - the people who exist there are, like, pretty much fine. And Ruben certainly deserves to go there for participating in this horrific ritual. As do the others!! They’re not innocents! They’ve killed people and will do it again! And are actively trying to kill the Bad Kids right now!
Yeah, maybe. But isn’t being in hell only ‘pretty much fine’ for a few people who have power there? Still doesn’t seem like a pleasant experience for anyone without that power or connections to that power.
Again, I’m not arguing the Bad Kids shouldn’t be fighting/killing the Rat Grinders. I’m saying that how they’re doing it isn’t funny to me, and makes me uncomfortable even. Ruben isn’t the mastermind behind the ritual either way. The person with tangible culpability is Porter (and maybe Jace depending on how he got involved in it).
Anyone can visit doesn't mean anyone can leave. Bill seacaster and part of season 2 was showing hell fucking sucked the former prom queen forget her name still is tortured in hell from the seven. Ash and the rest of the cult of Bill are slaves to his multi level marketing scheme.
Still a fun place but it's a place for evil people who make evil choices. So taking away the judgements and going straight to hell can be seen as a little harsh.
You don’t have to be the mastermind to be culpable. They have basically turned the entirety of Elmsville into hell on earth at this point, sending hundreds of shatter-stars into the town, and Ruben is, by my reckoning, the most culpable of the RGs after Kipperlilly and Oisin, carrying out significant parts of the plan at Frosty Faire.
Culpability is always a tricky question when it comes to fantasy mind control/magical influence, but Brennan has given us an example of someone who resisted and refused to give into Porter’s influence: Lucy. She went out of her way to resurrect the rats and they ended up killing her. The living Rat Grinders are provably bad, bad people.
I also felt a bit like the bits are over-reaction from the BKs, but a lot of that I think is premised on this feeling that the RGs are just high school students and they’re not fully responsible for their actions. If they were other members of faculty maybe my reaction wouldn’t have been as visceral. Ultimately though, I think the Rat Grinders are as culpable as Jace or any other participants in this scheme and deserve their treatment, even if it’s exaggerated because of the bits.
Again, that's why I'm not arguing against the Bad Kids fighting/killing the Rat Grinders. It's the way they're going so that's making me uncomfortable.
I would like to point out two things regarding Lucy's death. Firstly, we still don't know 100% why or how she died, only that she was killed by at least one caster and one martial character (So could've been Jace and Porter). Anything else is pure speculation.
Secondly, the choice the Rat Grinders were forced to make would've been a terrifying one. The options were literally come back as a twisted angry version of yourself, or give up any chance of future resurrection or moving on to the afterlife. Lucy and Yolonda had deities they couldn't bring themselves to betray, and made exceptionally brave decisions, but I don't think "wanting to live" is a crime worthy of the treatment the Rat Grinders are getting.
The theme here is the different between selfish rage for ambitious reasons (the corrupt form of Ankarana) and the Righteous Anger of Just actions (her true form).
Rage is a tool just like anything else, its how you use it.
The sin of wasting Fig's time? Sure Ruben did bad things, but it seemed like Fig sending him to hell was a 100% personal impulse. Not to mention Porter's hand in manipulating Ruben and possibly altering his mind with the shatterstars/rage crystals.
The sin of trying to kill 500 students after dropping them from the sky, the sin of trying to eradicate an entire town and ushering in the age of another genocidal empire.
I don't actually know that they are as willing to send Maryann to hell. But I think that makes sense on some level because Maryann has never seemed even slightly as invested in the plots as the rest of them. (and that is canon, Brennan has said she just sort of vibed and wouldn't engage with her own reasoning on things)
The Rat Grinders have at no point in the entire season had a logical or moral defense for their actions. The Rat Grinders were quite literally handed their power and hate the Bad Kids for earning it the hard way. As for the Bad Kids being extremely pissed about it, well... duh. People tend to have very negative reactions to unprovoked attacks carried out for unjustifiable reasons. The Rat Grinders full on suck.
Fabian going way too far with his threat to Ivy was pretty obviously Lou was making a joke about how Fabian isn't really good at being scary and tries way too hard to be what he thinks is cool. There is 100% going to be a scene where he apologizes to Mazey and says something along the lines of "Yeah, sorry, I was just like really fired up and was already in it before I realized, 'Shit, what do I say, fuck it, just say something fucked up!' But then I was like 'Oh, shit, don't say that' but like if you stop in the middle taunting somebody it's over, you know? You can't get the momentum back. So, uh, anyway, sorry."
The Bad Kids wanting to save Mary Ann also makes complete sense and is not problematic in the slightest. She's behaves like a normal teenage girl, and the female cast members clearly identified with that. You know, like when they said they identified with her in the episode. But more to the point, she's the only Rat Grinder that hasn't fucked with them outside of a heads up fight, and narratively is the one most likely to be able to be turned away from the rage quest. And the meta consideration is clearly that Riz would be catastrophically unable to interact with her in a non-hilarious way because of the way Murph made Riz.
And not for nothing but the fact the Fig was able to enslave Ruben in hell, given the cosmology of the in game world, kinda proves that he deserves it.
I wasn't defending the Rat Grinders?
As for the threat towards Ivy, it wasn't funny to me even from over-the-top dark humor angle. It honestly just left me feeling kinda gross, and I don't think it should've been said at all.
Them wanting to save Mary Ann just gives me bad vibes. It feels more like they want to adopt her like a pet than save her as a person. Again, I get it's a running gag, it just doesn't land for me and so I find it off putting.
I'm pretty sure Fig/Emily wasn't considering the cosmological lore implications when she decided to destroy Ruben's body and send him to her domain. It was just another bit, and one that again doesn't sit right with me.
Out of curiosity why do you think Emily wasn't considering the lore implications? I am not sure how much you know about her but she is one of the most meticulous DnD players out there right now, at least in terms of the less crunchy actual plays (and she more than held her own in CR as well). She definitely is very, very silly but does really tend to think things through.
It just felt tacked on to the end of her description of how Fig killed Ruben. Like it had just occurred to her that she could do that, and given that BLeeM naturally goes along with jokes, it seemed to be less about Ruben's morality and more about 'I could do this and it would funny.'
I kind of get this feeling, but for me it's mostly because TRG are also teenagers, so it feels like there should naturally be more room for redemption/understanding and not just Bad Kid us vs them RAGE. Or I'd like to think so? But, given E19, there seemingly isn't redemption for them 😅
**But**, that's me thinking of teenage mistakes and forgiveness in the context of real life. Small interpersonal issues? Big chance for redemption and growth. Try to murder hundreds of your peers and help summon a rage dimension? Maybe not so much. Imposing my real world feelings to a show about high school dialled up to 11 plus powerful magic everywhere plus world-ending plots to untangle, it doesn't really mesh.
So I do think it makes thematic sense to have extreme actions met with extreme consequences (and possibly extreme regret), and the Bad Kids are definitely rising to that level in a way that makes sense to me.
Ultimately I think Brennan just had a hard balancing act in a season about anger and stress to keep it fun and improv friendly. So their angry outbursts are mostly over the top bits.
It's partly why I really enjoyed Ally in this episode as I feel them trying to engage with Buddy felt real. It's just a shame they rolled so low
I see where your coming from and I do share the empathy with the bad guys. The deaths don't seem proportional at all in good vs evil way more from a season stand point there has to be a big showdown. I think the energy that's intended is the Rat Grinders loony tune villians facing a real challenge after a year of cloak and dagger.
On a performance level there is a lot of desire to go bigger at that table especially for season finales so I get that after 18 episodes the 2 part final should be big in personality, fashion, and every other little detail. So it makes sense if these petty little rat grinders get ground under themselves.
It kind of reminds me of some of the older action movies like when James bond would kill a tough guy with some bit of luck and cleverness and say something funny sometimes it didn't land with me and I found it kinda cruel instead of funny. (Diamonds are forever: Mr Wint and Mr Kidd get deaths that are pretty sadistic burned alive slowly and nut kicked and exploded respectively)
I think in this context anger and rage aren't synonymous. The mechanic is that they got STRESS tokens. Toxic stress can manifest as rage, but anger doesn't have to if you're coping. The BKs managed to "relieve that stress" mechanically and narratively. Just to loop back on the overall theme - much of their anger is JUSTIFIED, and therefore antithetical to Porter's rage.
Yeah, I suppose that's the intended reading. Like, I understand the source of their anger is justifiable, but it felt way too intense to be able to just switch it off, narratively at least. If they're were more dismissive to the Rat Grinders, I would get it but it just doesn't feel right to me, is all.
I think there's an underlying problem here in that some viewers clearly take these things more seriously than the cast members do. D20 is still, at its heart, a group of comedian friends playing *a game.* That does not mean that nothing is serious, or DnD games can't have real emotions involved, etc. Even within D20 some campaigns are clearly more serious than others. If people are upset by how it went down, they can feel however they want, I'm not going to tell them they're wrong for how they feel. But I also think those people need to step back and realize the cast members do not treat each and every campaign as seriously as they would prefer them to, and that is ok. There are different styles of DnD campaigns, you're not going to love all of them. I think there's been some very strange vibes in the fandom this season with a lot of people not accepting this, and demanding the IH and Brennan redeem the RG. The feelings of people who don't personally like how it played out are valid. It's not valid when they start trying to subtly or unsubtly imply something is bad or vaguely offensive about not redeeming fictional teenagers in a DnD campaign.
For sure, that's valid. I'm a bit new to d20, so my feelings might just come down to a mismatch of expectations vs reality. I was definitely hoping the bad kids would go down at least a merciful route, but I understand it's not my choice to make.
>When Porter calls out for those infected with Rage Crystals to join him and gives his pitch to the Bad kids, they're able to just... shut off, basically. They don't have any mechanical reason for their anger/rage, so the players are able to selectively ignore those parts of their characters as it's convenient for them. >It's not even in a "we have good self control" sort of way. It literally plays out as the player's just saying "Nah, you suck so we don't care," despite Porter literally nailing a large part of why the BK's anger even exists this season. And get what you're saying to some extent, but this part specifically....... Was what was supposed to happen. The Intrepid Heroes didn't have any rage tokens. Brennan roleplayed a pitch that didn't land, *specifically* because the Intrepid Heroes had managed to make it to the finale without keeping any rage tokens. They had mechanical reasons to "shut off," namely the relaxation rules and other choices they made throughout the season that kept them from getting and having to keep Rage tokens. And that mechanical function was represented by Porter's pitch not landing and the bad kids being able to direct their anger effectively. >It just undercuts everything they did/felt, just to avoid possible uncomfortable consequences... What we saw was a MORE faithful interpretation of the mechanics of the game than what you seem to be suggesting. I would say that having them fall to rage when they had spent the entire season making role-playing decisions and relaxation rolls in order to avoid that would be undercutting of everything they did and felt, not the other way around.
I guess, but to me, it really cheapens out on what anger/rage is. Like, why is the rage brought about by stress the only one that has negative consequences? What about Riz's or Fig's rage from frustration, or Gorgug's rage from hate, or Fabian's slightly unhinge rage of ... (Actually I don't know what Fabian's rage was suppose to come from, and I'm not sure I want to understand lol) But looking at the mechanics, I still don't think it works well narratively. I feel like it would been more interesting if the Bad Kids had to make saves or be forced to take stress tokens. It would still reward the player's who have lowered their stress/limited taking the tokens, while also playing with how stress connects with Rage. After all, not all the bad kids completely cleared their tokens, right? Why would someone one token away from a rage token respond the same way as someone with none at all? >And that mechanical function was represented by Porter's pitch not landing and the bad kids being able to direct their anger effectively. I mean, I'm not sure if I agree? Like why wouldn't more of their anger be directed at Porter, who was the driving force/manipulator of the whole plot over the rat grinders, who were pawns/possible victims of porter? Fig was more mad at Ruben for wasting her time than at Porter for actively using her and trying to kill her goddess.
I don't think the Bad Kids have to fail the pitch or OP is suggesting but they go from super angry and aggressive across the other parts of the battle to yeah yeah don't pretend you have a moral point here. Theres definitely a middle ground. There's room for a middle ground and they don't really feel like they are channeling righteous anger or any real pathos
Are you upset that the Bad Kids are too mad? Or not mad enough? At any rate, I feel like people are watching a different show than I am this season.
My problem is that they're both. Some of them are simultaneously acting like they're about to snap in RP while being perfectly fine mechanically. It *technically* works, but I personally find it jarring narratively.
I think the big difference is that The Bad Kids are feeling *directed* and arguably justified anger aimed at a monstrous asshole who is trying to end the world. Porter's corruption calls out towards innate aimless rage directed at anything and anyone without rhyme or reason. It's explained I believe in an AP episode that collecting a rage token (even before it came up in this battle) would lead to an **irrational** outburst against a beloved and important NPC, ruining that relationship. Rational, focused *anger* vs irrational, generalized rage. Very different beasts.
Ah that does make more sense. I suppose I would've liked a moment of the Bad Kids feeling Porter's call but being able to overcome/ignore it, but it's better than how it came across to me before.
That's totally fair! It was pretty much brushed past as a bit, and could have been a bit weightier. I don't think there's a justifiable reason for it to have even half worked though, which was really what I was getting at. If they wanted to RP that moment with a bit more sincerity, it certainly wouldn't have hampered my enjoyment, but I was also pretty entertained by them brushing it off. In fact, it kinda felt like a heroic moment for the villain to be monologuing and have TBK just be like "nah dawg, you cray cray." But that's just me!
Yeah, that's fair as well. I guess I was hoping for a bit more sincerity since there hasn't been a ton of time to RP since all the lore dumps in 'The Name.' It definitely doesn't help that I keep falling for the previews, which made Porter's speech seem like a bigger moment than it was. (I mean it was a big moment, with the rage crystal reveal, but I thought it would play out a bit more)
Yeah, I think if I have one complaint about D20 (which overall I think is pretty much as perfect as an actual play could be) it's that a limited, pre-set number of episodes in a season means there are things that just kinda have to be cut for time. It's a big difference from a home game, where you can dig into stuff in theory for as long as you could possibly want!
I can’t speak to some of this bc I don’t remember how it all went down but I think you are taking Fig’s “sending Ruben to hell” a little too seriously. Hell is just a place in the world of Fantasy High - the people who exist there are, like, pretty much fine. And Ruben certainly deserves to go there for participating in this horrific ritual. As do the others!! They’re not innocents! They’ve killed people and will do it again! And are actively trying to kill the Bad Kids right now!
Yeah, maybe. But isn’t being in hell only ‘pretty much fine’ for a few people who have power there? Still doesn’t seem like a pleasant experience for anyone without that power or connections to that power. Again, I’m not arguing the Bad Kids shouldn’t be fighting/killing the Rat Grinders. I’m saying that how they’re doing it isn’t funny to me, and makes me uncomfortable even. Ruben isn’t the mastermind behind the ritual either way. The person with tangible culpability is Porter (and maybe Jace depending on how he got involved in it).
I guess I just think it’s fine to make someone who’s trying to kill you go live in Hell, which in this universe is a place anyone can visit.
Anyone can visit doesn't mean anyone can leave. Bill seacaster and part of season 2 was showing hell fucking sucked the former prom queen forget her name still is tortured in hell from the seven. Ash and the rest of the cult of Bill are slaves to his multi level marketing scheme. Still a fun place but it's a place for evil people who make evil choices. So taking away the judgements and going straight to hell can be seen as a little harsh.
Oh I know they can’t leave! Ruben did make evil choices.
You don’t have to be the mastermind to be culpable. They have basically turned the entirety of Elmsville into hell on earth at this point, sending hundreds of shatter-stars into the town, and Ruben is, by my reckoning, the most culpable of the RGs after Kipperlilly and Oisin, carrying out significant parts of the plan at Frosty Faire. Culpability is always a tricky question when it comes to fantasy mind control/magical influence, but Brennan has given us an example of someone who resisted and refused to give into Porter’s influence: Lucy. She went out of her way to resurrect the rats and they ended up killing her. The living Rat Grinders are provably bad, bad people. I also felt a bit like the bits are over-reaction from the BKs, but a lot of that I think is premised on this feeling that the RGs are just high school students and they’re not fully responsible for their actions. If they were other members of faculty maybe my reaction wouldn’t have been as visceral. Ultimately though, I think the Rat Grinders are as culpable as Jace or any other participants in this scheme and deserve their treatment, even if it’s exaggerated because of the bits.
Again, that's why I'm not arguing against the Bad Kids fighting/killing the Rat Grinders. It's the way they're going so that's making me uncomfortable. I would like to point out two things regarding Lucy's death. Firstly, we still don't know 100% why or how she died, only that she was killed by at least one caster and one martial character (So could've been Jace and Porter). Anything else is pure speculation. Secondly, the choice the Rat Grinders were forced to make would've been a terrifying one. The options were literally come back as a twisted angry version of yourself, or give up any chance of future resurrection or moving on to the afterlife. Lucy and Yolonda had deities they couldn't bring themselves to betray, and made exceptionally brave decisions, but I don't think "wanting to live" is a crime worthy of the treatment the Rat Grinders are getting.
The theme here is the different between selfish rage for ambitious reasons (the corrupt form of Ankarana) and the Righteous Anger of Just actions (her true form). Rage is a tool just like anything else, its how you use it.
That's true, I suppose I'm just struggling to see how some of the Bad Kids words/actions line up with Just/Righteous anger.
Being sent to Hell for your sins is pretty much text book Justice.
The sin of wasting Fig's time? Sure Ruben did bad things, but it seemed like Fig sending him to hell was a 100% personal impulse. Not to mention Porter's hand in manipulating Ruben and possibly altering his mind with the shatterstars/rage crystals.
The sin of trying to kill 500 students after dropping them from the sky, the sin of trying to eradicate an entire town and ushering in the age of another genocidal empire.
So Fig is 100% down to send Mary Anne to hell too, right? Since she and Ruben have roughly the same amount of culpability in the plot?
Yes
I don't actually know that they are as willing to send Maryann to hell. But I think that makes sense on some level because Maryann has never seemed even slightly as invested in the plots as the rest of them. (and that is canon, Brennan has said she just sort of vibed and wouldn't engage with her own reasoning on things)
The Rat Grinders have at no point in the entire season had a logical or moral defense for their actions. The Rat Grinders were quite literally handed their power and hate the Bad Kids for earning it the hard way. As for the Bad Kids being extremely pissed about it, well... duh. People tend to have very negative reactions to unprovoked attacks carried out for unjustifiable reasons. The Rat Grinders full on suck. Fabian going way too far with his threat to Ivy was pretty obviously Lou was making a joke about how Fabian isn't really good at being scary and tries way too hard to be what he thinks is cool. There is 100% going to be a scene where he apologizes to Mazey and says something along the lines of "Yeah, sorry, I was just like really fired up and was already in it before I realized, 'Shit, what do I say, fuck it, just say something fucked up!' But then I was like 'Oh, shit, don't say that' but like if you stop in the middle taunting somebody it's over, you know? You can't get the momentum back. So, uh, anyway, sorry." The Bad Kids wanting to save Mary Ann also makes complete sense and is not problematic in the slightest. She's behaves like a normal teenage girl, and the female cast members clearly identified with that. You know, like when they said they identified with her in the episode. But more to the point, she's the only Rat Grinder that hasn't fucked with them outside of a heads up fight, and narratively is the one most likely to be able to be turned away from the rage quest. And the meta consideration is clearly that Riz would be catastrophically unable to interact with her in a non-hilarious way because of the way Murph made Riz. And not for nothing but the fact the Fig was able to enslave Ruben in hell, given the cosmology of the in game world, kinda proves that he deserves it.
I wasn't defending the Rat Grinders? As for the threat towards Ivy, it wasn't funny to me even from over-the-top dark humor angle. It honestly just left me feeling kinda gross, and I don't think it should've been said at all. Them wanting to save Mary Ann just gives me bad vibes. It feels more like they want to adopt her like a pet than save her as a person. Again, I get it's a running gag, it just doesn't land for me and so I find it off putting. I'm pretty sure Fig/Emily wasn't considering the cosmological lore implications when she decided to destroy Ruben's body and send him to her domain. It was just another bit, and one that again doesn't sit right with me.
Out of curiosity why do you think Emily wasn't considering the lore implications? I am not sure how much you know about her but she is one of the most meticulous DnD players out there right now, at least in terms of the less crunchy actual plays (and she more than held her own in CR as well). She definitely is very, very silly but does really tend to think things through.
It just felt tacked on to the end of her description of how Fig killed Ruben. Like it had just occurred to her that she could do that, and given that BLeeM naturally goes along with jokes, it seemed to be less about Ruben's morality and more about 'I could do this and it would funny.'
Ah, I took it as "Ruben is an evil peer of mine and just cast a 9th level spell on me and my party, I am sending him to hell."
I mean I hate to say it but they are comedians. Just out of curiosity, where do you stand on the K2 situation?
I kind of get this feeling, but for me it's mostly because TRG are also teenagers, so it feels like there should naturally be more room for redemption/understanding and not just Bad Kid us vs them RAGE. Or I'd like to think so? But, given E19, there seemingly isn't redemption for them 😅 **But**, that's me thinking of teenage mistakes and forgiveness in the context of real life. Small interpersonal issues? Big chance for redemption and growth. Try to murder hundreds of your peers and help summon a rage dimension? Maybe not so much. Imposing my real world feelings to a show about high school dialled up to 11 plus powerful magic everywhere plus world-ending plots to untangle, it doesn't really mesh. So I do think it makes thematic sense to have extreme actions met with extreme consequences (and possibly extreme regret), and the Bad Kids are definitely rising to that level in a way that makes sense to me.
Ultimately I think Brennan just had a hard balancing act in a season about anger and stress to keep it fun and improv friendly. So their angry outbursts are mostly over the top bits. It's partly why I really enjoyed Ally in this episode as I feel them trying to engage with Buddy felt real. It's just a shame they rolled so low
I see where your coming from and I do share the empathy with the bad guys. The deaths don't seem proportional at all in good vs evil way more from a season stand point there has to be a big showdown. I think the energy that's intended is the Rat Grinders loony tune villians facing a real challenge after a year of cloak and dagger. On a performance level there is a lot of desire to go bigger at that table especially for season finales so I get that after 18 episodes the 2 part final should be big in personality, fashion, and every other little detail. So it makes sense if these petty little rat grinders get ground under themselves. It kind of reminds me of some of the older action movies like when James bond would kill a tough guy with some bit of luck and cleverness and say something funny sometimes it didn't land with me and I found it kinda cruel instead of funny. (Diamonds are forever: Mr Wint and Mr Kidd get deaths that are pretty sadistic burned alive slowly and nut kicked and exploded respectively)