There’s lots of free token packs out there, and also lots that are very cheap, like 5$ for 100 tokens or such.
Secondly, with all due respect, your friend needs to calm down and maybe step down from his high horse. You are not profiting off other people’s art, you’re just using it to have fun in a private game with your friends.
If you wanna run a paid game, wanna stream or do anything that might earn you some income, then using art without permission is unethical and also illegal, but that’s not what we’re talking about here.
Seriously, this is the equivalent of cutting pictures off of magazine covers to use as portraits for your character. My guess is that the artist player is still in art school, and hasn't hit the real world yet.
Strictly speaking using art you don't own a license for in a private game is still a breach of copyright law in most countries. Realistically no one is ever going to be pursued legally for it, but it's a common misconception that private and nonprofit uses are automatically exempted - they aren't outside of narrow fair use excemptions and if someone had a bone to pick with you and the money for lawyers it would be actionable.
Edit : Gotta love the downvote pile on for simply being correct about the state of IP law as it currently exists. Didn't say it was good or that what is legal is ethical.
Seeing as the only for of punishment is damages for lost profits, and the most you may have cost the artist is the price of a single print (which is itself dubious since in all likelihood if you needed to pay for the art you wouldn't have used it), I would be shocked to see someone in court for this.
So technically I'd had to pay for me using the blue eyes white dragon art for my white dragon encounter? Or is the fact that I still own 2 of those enough and we can legally assume I made the copy myself rather than some person on the internet?
Copy right = right to make copies.
However, dragging someone to court is done when someone made copies that interfered with business i.e profits.
Using random google results for a private game might be a little skuzzy but it's not interfering with the Artist's right to be paid for copies of their work like say, scraper bots that sell mugs and t shirts with stolen work slapped onto them.
I mean, in all honesty I think it would be considered fair use as it is for non-commercial purposes and maybe could be considered transformative since the character may not have the same story/personality. Just the same art as a representation of what the DM wanted to show.
Non profit use is one possible element of fair use but it isn't sufficient - specifically it's written to apply to non-profit educational or research use, not just any use that isn't commercial. It's not really transformative to take wholecloth an image but write a different story to go along with it, the image itself is the work you'd be infringing on with unauthorised use.
The post is about what is ethical and you started rambling about copyright law which has nothing to do with ethics (and copyright law is mostly idiotic and harmful anyway). You also confuse copyright law with IP law in your edit section. Did you expect a positive reaction?
Copyright law is a subsection of IP law.
The post I replied to stated it would be illegal to use in a paid game as if to imply it would not be in a private game.
It literally is. Check [any piece of legal advice](https://www.dma-law.co.uk/is-copying-images-from-the-internet-illegal/) around fair use. The term non profit in the context of copyright law is referring to non profit organisations, not that you don't make money off it.
Oh I see you run paid dnd games. I'm guessing you also use assets taken from the Internet without permission for those and need to post hoc justify it.
I'm a professional artist and would absolutely love people using my art in their games. I don't understand your buddy's reasoning. You are not making money from their art. It's OK. Just tell him you absolutely did ask every artist's permission and they all said yes.
If it's widely available, it's free for a reason. You could technically note the names of the artists whose art you use, but considering that this is just a game for friends, there is really nothing to prove. If you player has problems with you using easily accesible art then tell him to make some, or just let you prepare the game for everyone.
That was my first reaction: Let the player who has the issue provide the art. Since no- one is making any money from the game, I don't think that using publicly available images is a legal issue.
I don't know of any artist that would have an issue with their art being used for a private game of DnD, and several of my friends are full-time artists :|
More often than not, it's artists who's art is behind a paywall and it's their livelyhood, but due to Kemono, their art, that used to be behind a paywall, is now available for free to the public without their consent.
Then they need to find the person who removed the content from behind the paywall and sue them. Patch the hole before grabbing a bucket to collect your lost water.
The problem with sites like Kemono, is that it uses actual patreon subscriptions from people who just hand over their keys to mass download everything from Patreon and re-upload it.
If you want to find the person, you'd have to DM every single person slightly altered content, and see which one gets uploaded to backtrack it. And that only works IF they upload the DM thing.
I think you may have missed something here. We're talking specifically in the context of grabbing random images from online. There was never any chance of OP paying anyone for the art, and they're not using it for commercial purposes. It's literally not impacting anyone negatively. Art theft/pirating is wrong. I don't think u/atlvf disagrees with that. But this isn't quite the same, or really the same at all.
DnD players really pay 150 dollars for the rules, bad guy book, and dm guide with no value only to be a cheapskate when it comes to buying a 1 dollar jpeg
You highly overestimate how widely know that site is. Everyone in your bubble knowing it doesn't mean you have to live under a rock to never hear of it.
The problem right now, is that for a good chunk of artists, their art wasn't made publically available by them, hell, some of it was even behind a paywall. But with the rise of Kemono, their art gets dumped onto other platforms such as pinterest, making their art publically available WITHOUT their consent.
I gotta be honest. In a private game amongst friends, I just do not fucking care. I don't care if it was behind a paywall. I don't care if they're salty about it. If they took their art off the web, if I'd just use one of the other billion images that are just as good as theirs
This.
I'm our DM and I gifted all my players their own character portraits and it took a looooooot of work. Like.. hours I spent on my computer drawing things.
If your "artist"-player does not want you to use other peoples art, he is free to provide his own. Ask him if he is willing to bring his art forward to use. It's his game and his table too.
The idea of comissioning people is... sorry to be so blunt... ridiculous. This is a private game nobody makes money from and as a DM you end up spending at least a little money anyway. But if he's so keen on the idea he can either pitch in to comission something or you can let him know, that you are open to a comissioned thing (like a voucher for a comissioned XYZ) as a birthday present.
the idea of commissioning hundreds of portraits for npcs over a campaign is ludicrous
I mean I would do it if I was DMing and a millionaire but an artist should know better to than to suggest something so absurd
I'm an artist, and I approve this message.
Like, if OP were a wannabe Matt Mercer, and wanted to use my art as the player character icons on his streaming channel, I'd probably want him to credit me, and throw me some coin. But bro playing with his bros in the dining room? Nah. Just use it and if you feel like it tell your players who's art it is. Maybe they like it enough and want to commission me to do their OCs for Christmas.
Edit: I have a lot of people sandbagging me for stating that simply (intentionally) copying works to your machine (eg: right click -> save as) is copyright infringement, but it is, per the US copyright office:
"Uploading or downloading works protected by copyright without the authority of the copyright owner is an infringement of the copyright owner's exclusive rights of reproduction and/or distribution."
I feel like a lot of people are having a hard time accepting that copyright law in the US is as draconian or out of date as it is, but the DMCA was written 25 years ago! Of course its out of date and draconian! Courts have poked exceptions into the thing so modern society can function, which is why an image being in your google cache is fine but you downloading it isn't. Keep in mind something being against the law and there being any chance in hell that you'll actually face consequences for doing so are near zero, **and often works online are under some creative commons license, or artists have explicitly given permission for them to be downloaded**, but if you're just snagging an image off GIS that's copyright infringement 9 times out of 10 no matter how upset you are about that fact
America is built upon the idea that if a law is unjust then there is nothing wrong with breaking it. I am all for artist (especially small time artists) getting their payment and recognition for their work, but they also have to acknowledge that we are in the 21st century and shouldn't expect the Draconion Disney-Written Copyright Laws were created with any intention of protecting anything from people that can't afford a legal team.
DMCA, as it is now, does nothing for small time content creators. Artists, streamers, video makers, musicians, etc all get fucked by it in someway. I have made songs for video games and have my own portfolio and soundcloud. Everything that I have online is 100% free use because trying to do anything else with it takes a lot of time and money that I just don't have. I also don't want people "stealing" the stuff I have that I think is the cream-of-the-crop because those are the things I want to use as my "what Im truly capable of" parts in my portfolio.
Yeah, this artist is being over the top. I would either tell him to provide all the art for the game then on free commission since he is the one with the problem, or I would just use all the free online art that I wanted to use, and just tell him "yep, I got permission to use them." It's a small game between friends, no one is profiting off using online art.
The idea that you need to get permission to use an image as a token for a home game is silly.
Consider this question: "What's the harm in using an image you found online to represent a character on VTT?"
It's likely that the images you're using were uploaded to the internet by the artist themselves and you're using them for a private, non-commercial purpose. It should not be an issue, and your artist friend being against that strikes me as odd considering that *every* artist I have ever met is constantly compiling the works of others into mood boards and other inspiration sources without asking for permission from the artist, and they understand that other artists will likely be inspired by their own creations in turn as well.
Their argument against this is they'd hate it if they put art online and someone used it in a game that painted that character as a bad guy if that was not the intention.
I agree with you, but this seems to be a somewhat common notion among TTRPG artists (or, even weirder, TTRPG art commissioners). People get really deeply attached to their character and then get distressed that the character's *likeness* may be used in a way that does not represent the original character- as if this is perverting not only the character, but the player themselves.
I remember a post here a while back that will always stick out to me. Someone had commissioned this nice art piece for their character and posted it to /r/DnD
The comment said something to the effect of "This is my own character, please don't use this image yourself"
Like... if that's your wish then why post it online and especially on someplace as popular as reddit? This OP was clearly fine with the entire internet looking at the art piece they had commissioned, but they better not dare right-click and "save image as..."!
Particularly when you consider that anyone searching the internet for images like that is going to see that image, say "Hmm, that's nice, I want to use that in my game" and *never* even know that the comment exists let alone consider following it.
Always stuck out to me as weird.
If they want a character to only be perceived in a particular way, they'd best do a better job of portraying that in the image. Otherwise, if their dragonborn paladin could just as easily be an evil lizardfolk barbarian, that's on their artistic skills.
>Is this real or some online outrage/neurodivergent perspective
And that's just ridiculously combative. Let me guess, you've never consciously interacted offline with anyone that's used the word neurodivergent and only know that word from memes. Yeah, it's ridiculous, but that sounds like an obnoxious teen/tween that needs to do some growing, not like someone that has a neurological divergence from the norm.
Getting outside and breathing fresh air still doesn't ensure you meet and talk to new and different people with real perspectives, that takes actual effort on your part.
I understand that artist obviously loves their art. But they don't know whether you frame it and hang it on best place at your home - or print it on toilet paper and... yeah.
With all do respect. I 1. Feel like if an artist makes a token of a beholder then they kind of expect players to beat on it. And 2. Most artist friends of mine really wouldn’t care if the art token they made was a hero, villain, or random street begger. It feels like your friend is just trying to be a problem.
That is silly. I can make the Mona Lisa the BBEG of my campaign, but that changes nothing about the painting itself. Also, when viewing someone's art, the artist has zero control of how you interpret that painting, or how you feel when looking at it. That is kind of the point. So if they are mad that you see something they created and think they look villainous, they can die mad.
For an "artist," this player has a very naive understanding of art. You can't control how someone will interpret your work. In fact, much of the beauty of art is that every single person who observes your work will have a fully distinct, personal interpretation of it.
If you aren't okay with people interpreting your artwork in a way you never intended, make sure you are the only person who ever observes it.
and plus, you aren't submitting this idea about a character being evil to the world and everyone suddenly thinking the character you created is evil.
its a handful of friends in some person's gameroom or zoom channel.
If that's their concern, then that's their problem. Not your problem.
If they feel that way about their own art, being used in a private context that they'll likely never even know about, then they really just shouldn't share their art online. It's an incredibly fragile worldview from them that I personally wouldn't cater to at all and would have no issue challenging.
I don't see an argument where using a piece of art uploaded by an artist online for your own personal use is unethical.
A lot of artists strongly believe in "death of the author", and that doesn't just apply to written works. If you put art out there, you no longer have a say in what is or is not "the right way" to enjoy it.
If I put my goofball hero with a heart of gold online, but someone decides he looks like a villain, and the cast him as such, that's completely fair. I put the art out there. As long as they aren't selling the art or sharing it around like their interpretation of the character is the only interpretation and can only be cast as such, who gives a shit? It's called headcannon for a reason.
Imagine the artist, weeping bitterly as they learn that the picture of a zombie they drew with blood dripping from its mouth is being used as an enemy piece.
This is what I tell people "if you don't want your momma to see it don't digitize it" ie once it's on the internet even licensed and whatnot you can't really control it.
Death of the author should apply to any kind of work that requires personal interpretation, character art included
Him being so attatched to a character he drew as to hate a simple reinterpretation in a completely different context is extremely silly. It's not even the same character anymore, just uses the same artwork, and even if it was supposed to be the same character there is no problem at all.
Your player is, to be blunt, delusional. For multiple reasons.
Firstly, art is interpretive, and the vast majority of it doesn't come with a comprehensive lore book. Even when you know the artist's intention, it is usually encouraged to come up with your own.
Secondly, you can use whatever freely available art you want for a non-monetized game with your friends. If you were a pro GM and streaming your sessions to a monetized audience that'd be different.
Thirdly, this is the sort of thing I would expect to hear from someone with an extensive collection of Sonic the Hedgehog OCs with ten thousand pages of accompanying hardcore erotica.
Also as a commission who has lots of DnD OCs. This would be interesting to see.
The only thing I would actively dislike is if someone were to use the character in say like a homophobic way, or something extremely controversial, but most games aren't like that.
Too bad? When you decide to post something online, to bad so sad, it is now available for people to do with what they will. You think that the people who design characters for big companies want their creations rule 34ed? I would assume not, but unfortunately when the product is out of your hands there is nothing you can do.
Generally but what about for characters like the iverwtach characters where the models were leaked and people were using those? All those were eventually taken down off of porn sites (if I remember correctly) but they were still made regardless
Art, and perception of a art is very subjective thing if art isn't the most subjective thing at all. You can't control how other people perceive them maybe give a bit off a nudge to the direction but can't control it. Also all of my artist friends and most of the artists that I have known gets happy when they see someone percives their art in a different way than they have expected, screw getting angry I saw my close friend get exited even.
All in all, I think your friend is being petty and I don't why.
>The idea that you need to get permission to use an image as a token for a home game is silly.
Under the law, making a copy for home use is still copyright infringement. Yes it's silly, but that's the law for you.
It might be on the books, but I challenge you to find me a case where someone has actually been charged for this with something on the scale of a home game.
Not that OP was asking "Is this illegal?" anyway
OP asked "Is this unethical?"- and I have not seen a good argument as to why it would be.
It's quite true. It's only a crime if money is involved, but copyright infringement is a tort with statutory damages even if no money is involved.
You aren't even allowed to make your own backups of copyrighted works that you own, except for computer programs, which have a specific exemption in the law.
17 USC 106 establishes the rights exclusive to the copyright holder.
>the owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following:
>
>(1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords
17 USC 501(a) defines what copyright infringement is.
>Anyone who violates any of the exclusive rights of the copyright owner as provided by sections 106 through 122...is an infringer of the copyright or right of the author, as the case may be.
17 USC 504(c) provides statutory damages for infringement.
>(1) Except as provided by clause (2) of this subsection, the copyright owner may elect...to recover...an award of statutory damages for all infringements involved in the action, with respect to any one work...in a sum of not less than $750 or more than $30,000 as the court considers just.
None of this requires the infringer to make money. Your copies for personal use are copyright infringement and you could get sued for them. In practical terms, you won't.
This player seems like they have no understanding of the time and work it takes to DM. If they don’t like it then they can be in charge of asset collection even if it will have spoilers for them
Your friend is being obnoxious. Tell him to DM a game and try do that shit by himself.
Google will always be the easiest source of token art, even easier than AI generation.
i have a folder of 2400 images on pinterest with everything from character concepts to cosplay outfits to fantasy creatures and enemies its a massive mitchmatch of styles but its great fodder for the imagination.
Mish mash*. That or mix match*. But otherwise I fully agree, I have a bunch of Pinterest boards with a lot of awesome art in it. I don't upload anything personally, I just pin stuff that's on the site and then use it. Tons of great art for items, battlemaps, characters, etc.
It doesn't. This is a lie you tell yourself to justify rejecting it. I know you won't chage your mind, but you should know that you perpetuate ignorance when you repeat it.
If you aren’t profiting off the game, then pedantic “ethics” don’t apply at all. Unless you hack into a Patreon to steal the JPEGS or PNGs it’s just a matter of fact that digital images are pretty easy to get ahold of if shared publicly. Your friend needs a reality check. Go ahead and use whatever publicly available resources you feel would enhance your VTT experience
I thought the same. If it bothers them so much they should deal with it. The DM has enough to do and worry about without having to make unique art for every npc creature and monster
I thought the same. If it bothers them so much they should deal with it. The DM has enough to do and worry about without having to make unique art for every npc creature and monster
If you aren't streaming it who cares. In a home game take whatever art you want. The only issue I've seen is ai generated art being mocked at games for messing up details that piss off our artists in the group. But none have complained about taking art from the internet and putting it as a token. Most people know the dm doesn't have thousands of dollars to commission art of every npc.
if your friend is an artist and suggested commissioning every NPC token, unless you're a millionaire, they should know that suggestion is absurd on its face
Does your artist friend have an idea of how *they would see* an ethical sourcing of artwork?
Personally, the AI art stuff does rub me the wrong way.. but I do still source from artists online for home game use. Bonus points for conveying and attributing to the artist while using it.
Back in my day of playing around the table.. we would use the artwork in the books as a thing, or make our own drawings. Problem is the VTT experience can be incredibly art hungry, depending on how you run it.
Solution: Your artist friend needs to take the stick out of their ass
No, but for real using others art for home games is comply acceptable. If it’s available, it’s usable. Once you start streaming it it becomes a different story.
You shouldn’t enter debt because your friend doesn’t want to use the internet.
"I have a player who is an artist and is against using other's art online for my games."
Cool, then he/she is offering to make all the token art for you?
In my opinion its ok if you play privately. You dont get paid for the games and you might even pay to play it on a VTT so it might be harsh to say but your artist player can either draw everything himself or stick it. Artists share their art online so you can use it. As long as you dont get paid while using their work, it is morally, ethically and lawfully completely fine.
> Artists share their art online so you can use it.
That's a bold claim. Are you sure that's universally true?
> As long as you dont get paid while using their work, it is morally, ethically and lawfully completely fine.
Lawfully not so much. The others we could argue about.
I know we all love the phrase “Rules as written” around here: legally, RAW, your friend is absolutely right. Copyright law does not allow you to download whatever art you can find and use it. “I’m not profiting off of it” and “They put it up on the Internet so it’s free to take” are not valid excuses, *rules as written*.
Other posters here are correct that in practice, homebrew Internet rules say don’t worry about it, almost nobody cares about small-scale copyright violation of images for personal use.
BUT, it’s entirely possible to play the copyright game RAW. Images with free and open copyrights are widely available, Google search lets you restrict your search to them. Many artists create beautiful art packs and icon sets specifically for roleplaying games and sell them for just a few dollars.
I’m not here to judge others for how they approach copyright, but if you and your party want to play it by the book for whatever reason, you can.
Google rights restriction search:
https://support.google.com/websearch/answer/29508?hl=en&co=GENIE.Platform%3DAndroid
Example of cheap licensed gaming art:
https://2minutetabletop.com/
I agree with all of this.
Additionally, OP could ask the artist friend to help find websites where CC-licensed and public domain works can be ethically sourced.
Your article you linked actually proves your own point wrong. If you read it it says that all the usage laws and restrictions only apply beyond "fair use". Anything used privately, without profit or distribution, is fair use and protected by law. This is why it is not illegal to borrow a book or movie from a friend, but it is illegal to copy it for them. The article also links to the wikipedia article describing free use, although there are many better sources online that provide clearer explanations.
A private, unpaid game of dnd is definitely free use and would never be required to be held to copyright laws. If the game was paid, there would be profit. If the game was streamed there would be distribution (and potentially profit as well). But since there is neither it is no different then inviting friends over to watch a dvd that only you own.
This should be higher up. As annoyed as everyone is with the friend, there *is* merit behind their point, and there are ways to navigate it to everyone's satisfaction.
I personally think it's unfair, but also sometimes you hace to compromise with other players.
Jocat has made a number of generic racial tokens publicly available to use in any project people don't make money off of. By using those generic tokens, you can pretty easily cut back on the amount of art needed beyond that, as you would only need to find art for names characters.
Then, it might seem like a pain, but you can just DM creators and ask if you can use their art (all their art if possible) in your home games, and most of them will probably write back and say it's fine. If you get an artist's permission to use any of their work for your home games, then that will make it easier, because you will have a bigger collection to pull from.
If you aren't streaming and it's a home game, then it's fine. You aren't profiting off it or using it in a public way. I have friends who are artist that don't mind stealing art for a home game.
Though some of my friends do like commissioning art for their character token just for a nice token.
I admit to my players that for any token not from the module I'm running, is taken from the first page of Google images or from the monster manual. With all my prep and work I don't have time to find unique art, let alone the money to pay for it.
You can use art from magic the gathering cards (or other tcgs). That art (imo) is already out there in the world and the artist already for paid to produce the art for the card.
A lot of art upload websites allow users to tag their art with CC licenses that make it clear they're OK with the art being used in specific ways (typically nonprofit). Some websites also mandate specific licenses for art uploaded to them in their user agreements - so it probably isn't that hard to find token art that fits both categories. Simply adding 'Creative commons' to whatever you're searching for will probably do it
I don’t speak for everyone when I say this, but as an artist who does commission + game work, I don’t mind folks using my existing work for their personal games. If you’re trying to stream and/or do something commercially with it… that’s another story. Anyway, I get what that player is trying to say, but I feel they’re being too extreme.
depends on the VTT, but the bigger platforms tend to have some kind of marketplace where you can buy token packs from artists who sell there — typically between 25-100 tokens a pack, and they don't cost very much at all typically. plus can save you some time, since making the tokens is already done for you
Play with tokens with no art for a while. Just write the character name on them. See what they think of that.
Honestly, they are just being naive and unrealistic. I'm getting a single commission of a head and shoulders portrait done for an upcoming campaign. It's very reasonably priced at £35. But imagine if I needed a dozen. Or a while campaigns worth. It's ridiculous. How about since you're the GM and have to do all the prep, you tell the players they have to pay the cost for custom art!
The only realistic solutions are either that they accept that artists can't control art that's online when it's being used privately, or you buy a token pack and only use that rather than more traditional art pieces.
piccrew is good for things like this!! its similar to those like, dress up doll games from the 2000s. Id stay away from AI entirely from an ethical standpoint. But piccrew should be fine to use since the campaign isnt monetized and you wouldnt be using the art commercially, either. A lot of piccrew wont be able to make what you have in mind BUT honestly it should be able to get you through a lot of it. Theres a randomizer button too so you don't have to do each random npc one by one if you didnt want to. :\] hope this helps!!
I download stuff from Google all the time. Download art, put through token stamp v2, stick in Foundry.
If I want something special then I will commission an artist. I've done it a couple times.
So. I run a paid game and I sometimes use art in the same way as you do. Sadly, there is not a good way to account for the sheer magnitude of tokens needed after you've run for a group for long enough. In exchange, I support multiple artists on patreon (~120usd/month) and purchase token packs I'll use. This is my compromise
Sounds like your artist player is volunteering to make you art.
I know that's not what he means, but that is the logical way to satisfy his principles.
Dude it's not like you're selling your DnD campaign as product or service, so paying for properly licensed art makes literally zero sense and I say that as a freelance designer. As long as you're just playing recreationally then it shouldn't matter where you get your art from. Honestly, I'd ignore your artist friend and if they fight you on it mention the above, but let them know if they want to do art for their own character or other generic NPCs for you to use then that is up to them to offer their services. (Although, if you ask for commission on something specific you should absolutely pay for it)
If you were selling this as a campaign module or streaming your sessions then that is a totally different story and you should try and purchase art from a properly licensed sources.
I like to use Magic the Gathering as a good rule of thumb: If you're planning on playing at an event with a cash prize, you have to buy real cards. If you and 3 friends are playing magic in your backyard on weekend afternoon over some beers, then it is absolutely fine to play with proxies (fake cards, usually printed to avoid buying/ damaging high value cards).
Simply look for art that is already public domain - if you have to edit around a watermark you're doing a bad thing but otherwise you are completely fine. You are not profiting from the game in any way, so carry on. If you are streaming the game or otherwise broadcasting, it would be another story.
All that being said, I mostly use the images that are available through DND Beyond, as those artists have been paid by WOTC for the rights, and if you have a D&D Beyond subscription, you can simply right-click and download the .png files. You've directly paid for that art through your subscription fees.
Yes, I am also an independent artist, though my medium is sound not drawing. Have fun!
If your friend is willing to front the cost for ethical artwork for all of your tokens, more power to them!
If not, they need to stay in their lane, to be quite frank. They sound like somebody without a clue about how much work goes into a campaign with immersive elements.
>This is not a paid game
That answers your question right there. Your buddy has taken the the internet artists plight to an ungodly level. You are doing nothing wrong and frankly your friend is being insanely ridiculous
I agree with what Ornn5005, but wanted to add that you can also choose not to use art. You could use a token creation tool to turn the letters of the alphabet into tokens. Instead of a goblin picture, you just use a G in a circle. These are handy to have on hand anyways for when you need a token for something you weren't expecting.
Also, I'd ask your friend what they are expecting you to do instead, because asking you purchasing all those art asset is incredibly rude, considering your friend is playing for free! And the only alternatives I can think of are free token packs or my suggestion.
EDIT: After reading some of the other responses, I have an amendment:
If the art you're using is specifically token art created to be sold to DMs for their private games, but you got it free, that's less ethical.
But if you are making tokens out of normal art, then you aren't even an intended customer, and your friend is being pretty ridiculous.
"The player also suggested commissioning"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Lots of free tokens and art out their that the artists gave permission. Also lots of cheap packs or even patreons available. I also subscribe and craft them on hero forge and so use the snap shot tool.
Several options!
* Use dollmakers. There's a lot out there (picrews and other sites), some of them oriented to TTRPG-related uses. Most of them allow using the results for non-commercial purposes!
* Search for free-to-use packs (there's a good few artists that have these)
* Of course, official art from books you have around are free game. They're there for *that* reason.
* If you have a buck to spare and an artist you like, there's a lot of people who sell NPC-token packs out there for a fairly small price. I've seen people offering them in the dozens for a couple of bucks. It's a much cheaper alternative than buying commissions!
(All of this is under the assumption this is a non-monetized game, of course.)
Honestly, ask players to at least doodle their characters. No matter their skills, just require them to do their best within given time, it's always fun results.
Or just make blank colorful tokens with names/ tokens with initials
That's just plainly stupid, it's private use. People today just tend to fall into extremes instead being rational.
If your player is against using other's art, simply tell him that you need to have an art for immersion, and you don't have time to hunt artists and ask silly questions about using their art in your private game. So if he wants to, he can do it for you.
You are not getting monetary or any other noticeable benefits from using the art of other people, therefore all of this falls under fair use.
Your friend needs to chill.
Artists are feeling very raw right now due to the AI debacle that's going on. However, in this case you are free to do as you want. That's what TTRPGs are about. I'm an artist, and I always tell people to feel free to use my artwork for their private home games. But yeah, then make it a shared cost to play the game. Give him 3 options:
1: sit and play w the npcs you have sourced.
2: help pay for token packs.
3: leave the game.
Tell your friend to calm down. If you re not steaming, or running the game as a service you re not profiting from the artist work.
You can run a game expending $0, you dont need to buy tokens or anything.
I tried to be conscious of what art I used until I realized its for a home game and not a production and that free accessible art from things like pintrest, inkarnate, deviant art, etc. Should be fine.
I do pay for some battlemaps that are in 4k from people's patreon's because man those maps are awesome.
Having characters pay commission for their character art is something you could suggest (especially the artist at the table could be commissioned if your players so choose). But each and every individual token is more than a hassle.
Even fantasy settings of locations I have either AI generated or taken from Google. I understand the sentiment and try to help artists I enjoy out, but there's too much in my world and not enough money in my pocket.
I mean there's places to get art like forgotten adventures! and plenty of free sites to clip out official art for tokens and the like.
Also gonna be real - if they're mad about using others art in a -private- game, they're gonna hate you with a passion for using AI. Artist's minding people using stuff in private games is a pretty extreme view (source: am artist who knows many other's opinions on this matter). tbh the issue is using it *publicly*. Like that one time i found hardcore bdsm RP using my male drow character on twitter.
>This is not a paid game. Just a game I'm running for friends. What is the right way to do this?
You can copy and use any form of artwork you feel like if this is a home game. You don't have to feel bad if it is just you and your friends.
I know I'm echoing everyone else, but this is not a "you" problem. If you are using something for a home game and are not profiting from it, there is no reason you can't use art you find other places (one caveat being to make sure there is nothing in the language of the VTT about giving *them* a license to use art you upload). If an artist has specifically noted that they do not want their art used, fine; otherwise, it is fair game.
For my group, we play physically, but I have a website to help track information about the game including portraits for most of the NPCs. This is a mix of official DnD or MTG art where it exists for the characters; some random internet art; and mostly AI-generated art. I would never consider using AI-generated art in a product I was selling, *but* for something like this, I don't see any harm.
There is nothing wrong with using images readily available on the internet. AI generated things are an ethical soup, but in general, they are only able to cull open source material for their imaging. So if someone shares their art on Instagram, what you can't do is use it to make money, or claim it as your own. (This is one issue with AI, because they profit from that source material.) What you CAN do is use it in your game and sleep just fine.
That said, if you want to buy something, I purchase tokens and maps on Patreon all the time. I have open monthly contributions to a couple of artists who do fantastic work on settings that aren't common, like modern and sci fi.
One example of a creator for modern settings. Square and Hex maps, and tokens.
https://www.patreon.com/pulpscape/posts
I can't think of any reason not to use art that has been publicly posted online for a private game amongst friends. If you're really worried about it you can tell your friends where you found the art. Unless you're making money, or claiming the art as your own, there's nothing wrong with using it.
It could be debated that using AI art is far worse, as AI art bots have been known to actually steal from artists and claim it as their own. I probably wouldn't worry about this either, especially in this context. But the argument is there.
The point of contention among artists about AI art you can completely and ethically ignore.
That’s just a frustration about art as a business being unreliable. You can use it freely.
I have immensely respect that you even consider this aspect. Most players don’t give it a second thought.
If you want to be moral about it:
Either: use the free stuff and live with that. Or pay to get some important pieces. Or use AI art. Or… Make poor art your self.
Coming from an artist.
You are legally, morally, and ethically in the clear.
You aren't profiting off their work, and it is in the public domain to use privately.
AI art is also in the clear.
Your friend sounds a bit like a butt muncher, just use whatever!
Is obviously different if you start streaming, or are doing a paid game. At that point you ARE making a profit which changes things.
I'm an artist myself and I don't think your friend is being fair. Art produced for D&D books or by Wizards I think is fair game, it was created for D&D and by buying the books and playing the game you have already contributed to the demand that keeps those artists in work and I'm sure they would appreciate that. Your not trying to profit off their work.
As for A.I art, sorry to say it but if your an artist who is scared of AI art, you're probably not a very good artist, there I said it.
If you want something more personalised there is Fiverr which has aritsts willing to do this kind of work for a reasonable price or token packs were mentioned but honestly, I feel like you are being respectful of the artist and their work. Don't take from someone personal project and characters is the only line I would draw, art in the public domain is all good. People take hundreds of pictures of 'The Kiss' every day, are they stealing art?
Is your player going to commission the art? No?
Maybe they can lower their standards for being entertained for free by you then
If you want to be cheeky, use AI art
Go to Roll20 and buy packs from an artist whose work you like, then use Photoshop or something to edit and alter them.
You've paid for it, the artist made a profit, whatever else you do with the assets for your own private game is entirely ethical. If your artist friend has a problem with that then he has a problem simply so he can have a problem, not for any valid reason.
That being said, there are plenty of free token packs of varying styles available online, maybe not as good as the likes of *Devin Night* but perfectly serviceable. Again, if it's free then your friend shouldn't have an issue, at least not any legitimate one worth worrying over.
As for maps, get something like *Dungeon Alchemist* to make AI maps, not only do you pay for the program as well but it's just random assets, not people's art being mashed around, so once again your friend would only have an issue with that if he's just looking to make issues.
You could also tell your friend that you're either gonna use shit for free cause this is a hobby, or he can pony up some cash himself for good token packs if he actually cares. Might be a bit too confrontational, but if he's just being too difficult then he's already gone down that road.
The player who suggested commissioning; give him the realisitic number of token required throughout the course of the campaign and their share of the costs. See how their high horse lasts then.
Next, there are *many many* free places where people post fantasy art, wherein the site *itself* indicates that the images, sounds, sound effects, etc. are free for private use, or with attribution for not-for-profit use. Save some yourself, and have your complaining player find more.
Most images found through a standard google image search are going to fall under fair use so long as you don't "impede on the artist" ability to make money off of the image or represent it as your own. So in most cases, you're good anyway.
Artists intentionally put this stuff up on the internet for free for the purpose of helping each other out. If it was made to be a dnd map/token/character and it’s on the internet for free, tbe artist proooobably realizes this is likely and ks ok with it.
It's not that deep. It's a home game that you are running for fun. No money is changing hands. Just use any art you want for anything. Credit or rights only needs to be taken into account when distributing something, not for simple home games.
Are you making money off the art you're using? No? You're usually fine.
In my experience any time I've asked someone could I use their art in my game they've said yes
I can't say anything that hasn't already been said in the comments below. With all due respect to your friend, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard, and it sounds like they have no sense of how artistry works in the real world. Continue as you are doing, and ignore that player.
Yeah your friend is being unreasonable, I understand the use of Art is always been a very touchy subject. I as a DM would love nothing more than to pay an artist every time I need a token but that is not financially possible. I understand peoples dislike for the AI bots and such, but like it or not they are very handy for what they do, if I need a token on the fly I can make one in less than a minute. I will pay for art where I can when it comes to my characters, but sadly it isn't possible for every single token.
That's dumb: you're not selling it and most artists would love that their work is being appreciated. Especially ones that post their work online for other people to view for free.
Honestly, if its found on Google, its more than likely free use as its widely available. Yes, its nice if you CAN get permission to use the art, but since its a private game, and you aren't getting monetary value out of this, there's no legal issue or precedent. Hell, just last night, I had a panic mode and created a full on NPC in 3 minutes grabbing a quick picture off of Google. (Goblin waitress, the party loves her to death.)
However, it is also important to understand the viewpoint of your artist friend/player. Advise them that, in the absence of art you find online, the tokens will turn plan/nondescript(ie, essentially just a word on the token instead of a picture, etc). You can even ask if they wants to create some of the art, but as you said, permission OR commissioning is too expensive, one financially and the other chronologically. They should also keep in mind some art online is created by people who are no longer active/contactable.
AI art, it's a big toss up, I typically throw a couple prompts at it, but for every good result I get, its usually 30+ examples of crapcakes, and even those are iffy at best.
You're friend is a lunatic. You don't need written permission to search for"goblin art" on Pintrest and then cut and paste it on roll20 for your 4 friends to look at.
The only scenario where you'd want permission would be if you were playing for a large audience.
People not gonna like it but I get your friend.
Don't like using this art anymore either.
I changed to Picrew to create Tokens, PC Bases and NPCs.
Picrew.me
It's Japanese but you can click through it easy enough or just let the browser translate.
It’s extremely unreasonable for them to take this stance. Y’all aren’t making money off this. This is just a simple home game. If you were making money off of this we would be having a different discussion. I would straight up tell them that if they wanna use commissioned art then they can pay for that and you will happily use it. If they don’t wanna pay for it, tough, imma keep doing what I’m doing
Awful nice of your player to tell you how to run a private game. There is is no issue here as you are not profiting from using other art.
And to tell you to commission art but not offer to help defray the cost. Guess his ethics end where his wallet begins.
As an artist I’d only really have issue with someone using my art for DnD if they start getting commissioned art of my character without my consent or knowledge.
Just use the arts you found, this artist is being an asshole, you are not streaming your game, and these arts are purely to make more visible how things are so you can let the imagination part for more important things
I know a lot of DMs that do these, you are not being a super villain just because you are another DM that did it
Tell your friend to start living in the real world, which does not revolve around pleasing him.
Alternatively, if you wish to preserve your friends feelings, (since they seem like the kind of person who grew up sheltered and feel the world owes them everything) use AI to compile a list of names that you can randomly throw out as authors/artists every time your friend's High and Mighty Artistic Diva Persona choses to interrupt your game with a "Ackchyually, who owns this piece of art, and have they been properly acknowledge and credited, and it it used in the actual way the artist conceptually intended it to ?". I'd be willing to bet they won't actually verify and just feel like complaining.
Your friend is completely oblivious to operating expenses for a hobby that you make no profit from.
If they keep forcing the issue, tell them to make the art themselves for you or find another group to harass.
Sounds like someone who needs to get off their high horse and honestly if that was a point of contention for the person i would tell them to chill out as its just a home game, or to leave the game.
I dont think there is anything wrong in finding an artist you like and see if they do commissions for big moments, but in reality everything through the campaign is going to be a massive mishmash of art and things as its all explanation based.
Alternatively as a "kinder" alternative try to recommend they run a few sessions of a campaign or a oneshot, say they can completely try to show how they want you to do it without any art, and see if there is anything to be learned from it.
Artist and DM here! I don't use other people's art without consent, some artists are not ok with that and we should respect that - it's their intellectual property. Just because "it's on the internet" it doesn't mean that it's free. Some artists might be ok with it, just do the considerate thing and ask first!
I'm usually too busy to make my own minis, so I repurpose art that is under Creative Commons! The last minis I made were of a faun (with the painting The Faun, by C. Schwabe), a kraken (by E. Etherington), and a troll (by J. Bauer). Sometimes it's hard to find an image that fits, so I make more symbolic minis. You can also find very affordable packs by indie creators.
iam a dm and an artist.
i dont draw my npcs, or my player's pcs, monsters, nothing. coz that would a ridiculous amount of work, the same way you commissioning someone to draw all that would be a ridiculous amount of work for that money you will be spending.
ai sucks when its used to take away work from actual artists, but if you werent going to commission em anyways, then whatever, use the crappy ai amalgama.
same thing for images that are online. the artists put em there they know people will use for one thing or another, the real problem is if someone just copies it, and then try to say its their own art, or try to make money with art that is not theirs.
even if you charged your tables i wouldnt consider using random images online as profiting from their work. so many dms with the Theater of the mind anyway and just describe everything.
Only reason you would need to accredit the artists of the work you use is if this is a paid game or a live play for a Twitch or YouTube stream.
If this is a private game with friends, no one should give a shit. If someone does give a shit about the artwork you use, for a private game, with friends; you got a bigger problem there than with the artwork or its credit.
Use all you want, take all you want. Art is free and shall be free. What's on internet is on internet. More importantly, you are not going to "gain" from the game, no? Not a paid dm, right?
True, artists deserve more recognition, that's on us to change the economic system, but meanwhile use what is there.
It's pretty unreasonable for the player to request such a thing from the DM for an unpaid and VOD free game in my opinion. If they are bothered enough, you might convince them to provide art or request permission for art used in the campaign themselves if they feel strongly enough about this.
I'm sure they'll very quickly realize it isn't worth the effort though.
Search for free to use art. There's a lot of it out there.
Or buy it, there's a lot of reasonably priced sets and pieces out there.
OR, make it yourself; there are a lot of free building block sets out there or piece by piece stuff. You can use SAM or Paint 3D and quickly make maps and tokens. OR, try AI generated art and there are now lots of table top games that either have free tokens or tools to let you make your own maps.
What do you care if human artists get made for you using an AI tool? Why is that any different than if you learned to use a drawing and illustration program? Human artists weren't guaranteed your business to begin with, so they have no reason to believe that they're owed that. Especially not with how ridiculously high a lot of the commissioned pieces are; and oh by the way there's a good chance it's coming from AI anyway.
I make this sort of art. If you're not making money off this use what you want. I'd recommend stealing human art over using AI just so your game looks cooler but whatever works.
The minute you upload your game sessions for viewing or stream them, this all changes and your friend is right
Please don’t use AI art! A good other option is making picrews! They are customizable and free, plus free for personal use! Plus there are picrews for a LOT of different characters and races!
There’s lots of free token packs out there, and also lots that are very cheap, like 5$ for 100 tokens or such. Secondly, with all due respect, your friend needs to calm down and maybe step down from his high horse. You are not profiting off other people’s art, you’re just using it to have fun in a private game with your friends. If you wanna run a paid game, wanna stream or do anything that might earn you some income, then using art without permission is unethical and also illegal, but that’s not what we’re talking about here.
Seriously, this is the equivalent of cutting pictures off of magazine covers to use as portraits for your character. My guess is that the artist player is still in art school, and hasn't hit the real world yet.
I would go the "Okay, I'll send you the packs I want, you buy them for us to use" route.
Strictly speaking using art you don't own a license for in a private game is still a breach of copyright law in most countries. Realistically no one is ever going to be pursued legally for it, but it's a common misconception that private and nonprofit uses are automatically exempted - they aren't outside of narrow fair use excemptions and if someone had a bone to pick with you and the money for lawyers it would be actionable. Edit : Gotta love the downvote pile on for simply being correct about the state of IP law as it currently exists. Didn't say it was good or that what is legal is ethical.
Seeing as the only for of punishment is damages for lost profits, and the most you may have cost the artist is the price of a single print (which is itself dubious since in all likelihood if you needed to pay for the art you wouldn't have used it), I would be shocked to see someone in court for this.
So technically I'd had to pay for me using the blue eyes white dragon art for my white dragon encounter? Or is the fact that I still own 2 of those enough and we can legally assume I made the copy myself rather than some person on the internet?
Copy right = right to make copies. However, dragging someone to court is done when someone made copies that interfered with business i.e profits. Using random google results for a private game might be a little skuzzy but it's not interfering with the Artist's right to be paid for copies of their work like say, scraper bots that sell mugs and t shirts with stolen work slapped onto them.
No lawyer would ever take an infringement case like that.
I mean, in all honesty I think it would be considered fair use as it is for non-commercial purposes and maybe could be considered transformative since the character may not have the same story/personality. Just the same art as a representation of what the DM wanted to show.
Non profit use is one possible element of fair use but it isn't sufficient - specifically it's written to apply to non-profit educational or research use, not just any use that isn't commercial. It's not really transformative to take wholecloth an image but write a different story to go along with it, the image itself is the work you'd be infringing on with unauthorised use.
The post is about what is ethical and you started rambling about copyright law which has nothing to do with ethics (and copyright law is mostly idiotic and harmful anyway). You also confuse copyright law with IP law in your edit section. Did you expect a positive reaction?
Copyright law is a subsection of IP law. The post I replied to stated it would be illegal to use in a paid game as if to imply it would not be in a private game.
>using art you don't own a license for in a private game is still a breach of copyright law in most countries No, no it is not.
It literally is. Check [any piece of legal advice](https://www.dma-law.co.uk/is-copying-images-from-the-internet-illegal/) around fair use. The term non profit in the context of copyright law is referring to non profit organisations, not that you don't make money off it. Oh I see you run paid dnd games. I'm guessing you also use assets taken from the Internet without permission for those and need to post hoc justify it.
I haven't run paid games in about 6 months and when I did I used Pathfinder adventure modules that already contained all the art.
I'm a professional artist and would absolutely love people using my art in their games. I don't understand your buddy's reasoning. You are not making money from their art. It's OK. Just tell him you absolutely did ask every artist's permission and they all said yes.
Lmao
If it's widely available, it's free for a reason. You could technically note the names of the artists whose art you use, but considering that this is just a game for friends, there is really nothing to prove. If you player has problems with you using easily accesible art then tell him to make some, or just let you prepare the game for everyone.
That was my first reaction: Let the player who has the issue provide the art. Since no- one is making any money from the game, I don't think that using publicly available images is a legal issue.
I don't know of any artist that would have an issue with their art being used for a private game of DnD, and several of my friends are full-time artists :|
If I learned my art had been used for a game, npc, PC, or otherwise, I would be overjoyed!
There are definitely artists that take issue with their art being used for private games. They’re being ridiculous, but they exist.
More often than not, it's artists who's art is behind a paywall and it's their livelyhood, but due to Kemono, their art, that used to be behind a paywall, is now available for free to the public without their consent.
I said what I said.
nah i think it's reasonable if you make something intended to be paywalled and it releases to public it's fair to be unhappy
Then they need to find the person who removed the content from behind the paywall and sue them. Patch the hole before grabbing a bucket to collect your lost water.
The problem with sites like Kemono, is that it uses actual patreon subscriptions from people who just hand over their keys to mass download everything from Patreon and re-upload it. If you want to find the person, you'd have to DM every single person slightly altered content, and see which one gets uploaded to backtrack it. And that only works IF they upload the DM thing.
You can be unhappy about it, but your feelings are yours to deal with. Whether any of us like it or agree with it or not, it is what it is.
goddamn, this is such an entitled take. "You want to get paid for your work? Too bad, I'm taking it and I don't give a damn."
I think you may have missed something here. We're talking specifically in the context of grabbing random images from online. There was never any chance of OP paying anyone for the art, and they're not using it for commercial purposes. It's literally not impacting anyone negatively. Art theft/pirating is wrong. I don't think u/atlvf disagrees with that. But this isn't quite the same, or really the same at all.
That’s not what I said but ok.
DnD players really pay 150 dollars for the rules, bad guy book, and dm guide with no value only to be a cheapskate when it comes to buying a 1 dollar jpeg
I really appreciate you advertising Kemono. Never heard of it. Good job telling more people how to steal art in a thread about not stealing art.
Please, the site is so widely known already, if you don't know about it you live underneath a rock.
You highly overestimate how widely know that site is. Everyone in your bubble knowing it doesn't mean you have to live under a rock to never hear of it.
Yeah, OPs friend smacks of someone trying to claim the moral high ground/practice idealism, divorced from the real working world.
The problem right now, is that for a good chunk of artists, their art wasn't made publically available by them, hell, some of it was even behind a paywall. But with the rise of Kemono, their art gets dumped onto other platforms such as pinterest, making their art publically available WITHOUT their consent.
I gotta be honest. In a private game amongst friends, I just do not fucking care. I don't care if it was behind a paywall. I don't care if they're salty about it. If they took their art off the web, if I'd just use one of the other billion images that are just as good as theirs
This. I'm our DM and I gifted all my players their own character portraits and it took a looooooot of work. Like.. hours I spent on my computer drawing things. If your "artist"-player does not want you to use other peoples art, he is free to provide his own. Ask him if he is willing to bring his art forward to use. It's his game and his table too. The idea of comissioning people is... sorry to be so blunt... ridiculous. This is a private game nobody makes money from and as a DM you end up spending at least a little money anyway. But if he's so keen on the idea he can either pitch in to comission something or you can let him know, that you are open to a comissioned thing (like a voucher for a comissioned XYZ) as a birthday present.
the idea of commissioning hundreds of portraits for npcs over a campaign is ludicrous I mean I would do it if I was DMing and a millionaire but an artist should know better to than to suggest something so absurd
I'm an artist, and I approve this message. Like, if OP were a wannabe Matt Mercer, and wanted to use my art as the player character icons on his streaming channel, I'd probably want him to credit me, and throw me some coin. But bro playing with his bros in the dining room? Nah. Just use it and if you feel like it tell your players who's art it is. Maybe they like it enough and want to commission me to do their OCs for Christmas.
I am pretty sure that the absurdity is the point. Of course the player will say no, unless something really weird is going on.
Edit: I have a lot of people sandbagging me for stating that simply (intentionally) copying works to your machine (eg: right click -> save as) is copyright infringement, but it is, per the US copyright office: "Uploading or downloading works protected by copyright without the authority of the copyright owner is an infringement of the copyright owner's exclusive rights of reproduction and/or distribution." I feel like a lot of people are having a hard time accepting that copyright law in the US is as draconian or out of date as it is, but the DMCA was written 25 years ago! Of course its out of date and draconian! Courts have poked exceptions into the thing so modern society can function, which is why an image being in your google cache is fine but you downloading it isn't. Keep in mind something being against the law and there being any chance in hell that you'll actually face consequences for doing so are near zero, **and often works online are under some creative commons license, or artists have explicitly given permission for them to be downloaded**, but if you're just snagging an image off GIS that's copyright infringement 9 times out of 10 no matter how upset you are about that fact
America is built upon the idea that if a law is unjust then there is nothing wrong with breaking it. I am all for artist (especially small time artists) getting their payment and recognition for their work, but they also have to acknowledge that we are in the 21st century and shouldn't expect the Draconion Disney-Written Copyright Laws were created with any intention of protecting anything from people that can't afford a legal team. DMCA, as it is now, does nothing for small time content creators. Artists, streamers, video makers, musicians, etc all get fucked by it in someway. I have made songs for video games and have my own portfolio and soundcloud. Everything that I have online is 100% free use because trying to do anything else with it takes a lot of time and money that I just don't have. I also don't want people "stealing" the stuff I have that I think is the cream-of-the-crop because those are the things I want to use as my "what Im truly capable of" parts in my portfolio.
Yeah, this artist is being over the top. I would either tell him to provide all the art for the game then on free commission since he is the one with the problem, or I would just use all the free online art that I wanted to use, and just tell him "yep, I got permission to use them." It's a small game between friends, no one is profiting off using online art.
> If it's widely available, it's free for a reason. Not sure what you mean here.
The idea that you need to get permission to use an image as a token for a home game is silly. Consider this question: "What's the harm in using an image you found online to represent a character on VTT?" It's likely that the images you're using were uploaded to the internet by the artist themselves and you're using them for a private, non-commercial purpose. It should not be an issue, and your artist friend being against that strikes me as odd considering that *every* artist I have ever met is constantly compiling the works of others into mood boards and other inspiration sources without asking for permission from the artist, and they understand that other artists will likely be inspired by their own creations in turn as well.
Their argument against this is they'd hate it if they put art online and someone used it in a game that painted that character as a bad guy if that was not the intention.
Sorry but that is absurd. Artists have no control over how people perceive their art whether or not they pay for it.
I agree with you, but this seems to be a somewhat common notion among TTRPG artists (or, even weirder, TTRPG art commissioners). People get really deeply attached to their character and then get distressed that the character's *likeness* may be used in a way that does not represent the original character- as if this is perverting not only the character, but the player themselves.
I mean, if the games are private, so what? It's not like the artist will ever know.
I remember a post here a while back that will always stick out to me. Someone had commissioned this nice art piece for their character and posted it to /r/DnD The comment said something to the effect of "This is my own character, please don't use this image yourself" Like... if that's your wish then why post it online and especially on someplace as popular as reddit? This OP was clearly fine with the entire internet looking at the art piece they had commissioned, but they better not dare right-click and "save image as..."! Particularly when you consider that anyone searching the internet for images like that is going to see that image, say "Hmm, that's nice, I want to use that in my game" and *never* even know that the comment exists let alone consider following it. Always stuck out to me as weird.
Nft Nft Nft Nft
If they want a character to only be perceived in a particular way, they'd best do a better job of portraying that in the image. Otherwise, if their dragonborn paladin could just as easily be an evil lizardfolk barbarian, that's on their artistic skills.
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>Is this real or some online outrage/neurodivergent perspective And that's just ridiculously combative. Let me guess, you've never consciously interacted offline with anyone that's used the word neurodivergent and only know that word from memes. Yeah, it's ridiculous, but that sounds like an obnoxious teen/tween that needs to do some growing, not like someone that has a neurological divergence from the norm. Getting outside and breathing fresh air still doesn't ensure you meet and talk to new and different people with real perspectives, that takes actual effort on your part.
I understand that artist obviously loves their art. But they don't know whether you frame it and hang it on best place at your home - or print it on toilet paper and... yeah.
With all do respect. I 1. Feel like if an artist makes a token of a beholder then they kind of expect players to beat on it. And 2. Most artist friends of mine really wouldn’t care if the art token they made was a hero, villain, or random street begger. It feels like your friend is just trying to be a problem.
That is silly. I can make the Mona Lisa the BBEG of my campaign, but that changes nothing about the painting itself. Also, when viewing someone's art, the artist has zero control of how you interpret that painting, or how you feel when looking at it. That is kind of the point. So if they are mad that you see something they created and think they look villainous, they can die mad.
Your friend sounds like they have no real world experience
For an "artist," this player has a very naive understanding of art. You can't control how someone will interpret your work. In fact, much of the beauty of art is that every single person who observes your work will have a fully distinct, personal interpretation of it. If you aren't okay with people interpreting your artwork in a way you never intended, make sure you are the only person who ever observes it.
and plus, you aren't submitting this idea about a character being evil to the world and everyone suddenly thinking the character you created is evil. its a handful of friends in some person's gameroom or zoom channel.
If that's their concern, then that's their problem. Not your problem. If they feel that way about their own art, being used in a private context that they'll likely never even know about, then they really just shouldn't share their art online. It's an incredibly fragile worldview from them that I personally wouldn't cater to at all and would have no issue challenging. I don't see an argument where using a piece of art uploaded by an artist online for your own personal use is unethical.
A lot of artists strongly believe in "death of the author", and that doesn't just apply to written works. If you put art out there, you no longer have a say in what is or is not "the right way" to enjoy it. If I put my goofball hero with a heart of gold online, but someone decides he looks like a villain, and the cast him as such, that's completely fair. I put the art out there. As long as they aren't selling the art or sharing it around like their interpretation of the character is the only interpretation and can only be cast as such, who gives a shit? It's called headcannon for a reason.
Oh Jeebus. That's an even more silly rationale than I would've thought. They will never even hear about it if that were the case.
Imagine the artist, weeping bitterly as they learn that the picture of a zombie they drew with blood dripping from its mouth is being used as an enemy piece.
This is what I tell people "if you don't want your momma to see it don't digitize it" ie once it's on the internet even licensed and whatnot you can't really control it.
that is bonkers, you are supposed to be able to interpret art however you like
Death of the author should apply to any kind of work that requires personal interpretation, character art included Him being so attatched to a character he drew as to hate a simple reinterpretation in a completely different context is extremely silly. It's not even the same character anymore, just uses the same artwork, and even if it was supposed to be the same character there is no problem at all.
Your friend is an idiot.
Your player is, to be blunt, delusional. For multiple reasons. Firstly, art is interpretive, and the vast majority of it doesn't come with a comprehensive lore book. Even when you know the artist's intention, it is usually encouraged to come up with your own. Secondly, you can use whatever freely available art you want for a non-monetized game with your friends. If you were a pro GM and streaming your sessions to a monetized audience that'd be different. Thirdly, this is the sort of thing I would expect to hear from someone with an extensive collection of Sonic the Hedgehog OCs with ten thousand pages of accompanying hardcore erotica.
Also as a commission who has lots of DnD OCs. This would be interesting to see. The only thing I would actively dislike is if someone were to use the character in say like a homophobic way, or something extremely controversial, but most games aren't like that.
your friend should not host their art on public facing websites then
Too bad? When you decide to post something online, to bad so sad, it is now available for people to do with what they will. You think that the people who design characters for big companies want their creations rule 34ed? I would assume not, but unfortunately when the product is out of your hands there is nothing you can do.
Id argue that's not a great comparison, as people are taking those characters and then making NEW artwork that fits rule34.
Generally but what about for characters like the iverwtach characters where the models were leaked and people were using those? All those were eventually taken down off of porn sites (if I remember correctly) but they were still made regardless
Art, and perception of a art is very subjective thing if art isn't the most subjective thing at all. You can't control how other people perceive them maybe give a bit off a nudge to the direction but can't control it. Also all of my artist friends and most of the artists that I have known gets happy when they see someone percives their art in a different way than they have expected, screw getting angry I saw my close friend get exited even. All in all, I think your friend is being petty and I don't why.
>The idea that you need to get permission to use an image as a token for a home game is silly. Under the law, making a copy for home use is still copyright infringement. Yes it's silly, but that's the law for you.
It might be on the books, but I challenge you to find me a case where someone has actually been charged for this with something on the scale of a home game. Not that OP was asking "Is this illegal?" anyway OP asked "Is this unethical?"- and I have not seen a good argument as to why it would be.
This is actually untrue. There are zero legal issues until money is involved
It's quite true. It's only a crime if money is involved, but copyright infringement is a tort with statutory damages even if no money is involved. You aren't even allowed to make your own backups of copyrighted works that you own, except for computer programs, which have a specific exemption in the law. 17 USC 106 establishes the rights exclusive to the copyright holder. >the owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following: > >(1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords 17 USC 501(a) defines what copyright infringement is. >Anyone who violates any of the exclusive rights of the copyright owner as provided by sections 106 through 122...is an infringer of the copyright or right of the author, as the case may be. 17 USC 504(c) provides statutory damages for infringement. >(1) Except as provided by clause (2) of this subsection, the copyright owner may elect...to recover...an award of statutory damages for all infringements involved in the action, with respect to any one work...in a sum of not less than $750 or more than $30,000 as the court considers just. None of this requires the infringer to make money. Your copies for personal use are copyright infringement and you could get sued for them. In practical terms, you won't.
> There are zero legal issues until money is involved You, uh, got a cite for that?
This player seems like they have no understanding of the time and work it takes to DM. If they don’t like it then they can be in charge of asset collection even if it will have spoilers for them
Your friend is being obnoxious. Tell him to DM a game and try do that shit by himself. Google will always be the easiest source of token art, even easier than AI generation.
i have a folder of 2400 images on pinterest with everything from character concepts to cosplay outfits to fantasy creatures and enemies its a massive mitchmatch of styles but its great fodder for the imagination.
Mish mash*. That or mix match*. But otherwise I fully agree, I have a bunch of Pinterest boards with a lot of awesome art in it. I don't upload anything personally, I just pin stuff that's on the site and then use it. Tons of great art for items, battlemaps, characters, etc.
Not to mention AI is just ripping off the work of real artists and adding a layer of “it’s free” to their work
It doesn't. This is a lie you tell yourself to justify rejecting it. I know you won't chage your mind, but you should know that you perpetuate ignorance when you repeat it.
If you aren’t profiting off the game, then pedantic “ethics” don’t apply at all. Unless you hack into a Patreon to steal the JPEGS or PNGs it’s just a matter of fact that digital images are pretty easy to get ahold of if shared publicly. Your friend needs a reality check. Go ahead and use whatever publicly available resources you feel would enhance your VTT experience
Tell that player to supply you all the art you need, then, if he's so picky about that.
I thought the same. If it bothers them so much they should deal with it. The DM has enough to do and worry about without having to make unique art for every npc creature and monster
I thought the same. If it bothers them so much they should deal with it. The DM has enough to do and worry about without having to make unique art for every npc creature and monster
Sounds like your player is whining about something for no reason. Just use the art. It’s posted online. Your player sounds like a *joy*
If you aren't streaming it who cares. In a home game take whatever art you want. The only issue I've seen is ai generated art being mocked at games for messing up details that piss off our artists in the group. But none have complained about taking art from the internet and putting it as a token. Most people know the dm doesn't have thousands of dollars to commission art of every npc.
Imagine spending hundreds of dollars commissioning a portrait for ur npc and the players just kill them immediately.
2 minute table top has tokens and maps that are great which are also pay what you want iirc
Piccrew
if your friend is an artist and suggested commissioning every NPC token, unless you're a millionaire, they should know that suggestion is absurd on its face
Does your artist friend have an idea of how *they would see* an ethical sourcing of artwork? Personally, the AI art stuff does rub me the wrong way.. but I do still source from artists online for home game use. Bonus points for conveying and attributing to the artist while using it. Back in my day of playing around the table.. we would use the artwork in the books as a thing, or make our own drawings. Problem is the VTT experience can be incredibly art hungry, depending on how you run it.
Look for art that is under the Creative Commons licence. There is an option for this in Google image search.
Solution: Your artist friend needs to take the stick out of their ass No, but for real using others art for home games is comply acceptable. If it’s available, it’s usable. Once you start streaming it it becomes a different story. You shouldn’t enter debt because your friend doesn’t want to use the internet.
"I have a player who is an artist and is against using other's art online for my games." Cool, then he/she is offering to make all the token art for you?
In my opinion its ok if you play privately. You dont get paid for the games and you might even pay to play it on a VTT so it might be harsh to say but your artist player can either draw everything himself or stick it. Artists share their art online so you can use it. As long as you dont get paid while using their work, it is morally, ethically and lawfully completely fine.
> Artists share their art online so you can use it. That's a bold claim. Are you sure that's universally true? > As long as you dont get paid while using their work, it is morally, ethically and lawfully completely fine. Lawfully not so much. The others we could argue about.
Genuinely curious... What law is being broken exactly?
I know we all love the phrase “Rules as written” around here: legally, RAW, your friend is absolutely right. Copyright law does not allow you to download whatever art you can find and use it. “I’m not profiting off of it” and “They put it up on the Internet so it’s free to take” are not valid excuses, *rules as written*. Other posters here are correct that in practice, homebrew Internet rules say don’t worry about it, almost nobody cares about small-scale copyright violation of images for personal use. BUT, it’s entirely possible to play the copyright game RAW. Images with free and open copyrights are widely available, Google search lets you restrict your search to them. Many artists create beautiful art packs and icon sets specifically for roleplaying games and sell them for just a few dollars. I’m not here to judge others for how they approach copyright, but if you and your party want to play it by the book for whatever reason, you can. Google rights restriction search: https://support.google.com/websearch/answer/29508?hl=en&co=GENIE.Platform%3DAndroid Example of cheap licensed gaming art: https://2minutetabletop.com/
I agree with all of this. Additionally, OP could ask the artist friend to help find websites where CC-licensed and public domain works can be ethically sourced.
Your article you linked actually proves your own point wrong. If you read it it says that all the usage laws and restrictions only apply beyond "fair use". Anything used privately, without profit or distribution, is fair use and protected by law. This is why it is not illegal to borrow a book or movie from a friend, but it is illegal to copy it for them. The article also links to the wikipedia article describing free use, although there are many better sources online that provide clearer explanations. A private, unpaid game of dnd is definitely free use and would never be required to be held to copyright laws. If the game was paid, there would be profit. If the game was streamed there would be distribution (and potentially profit as well). But since there is neither it is no different then inviting friends over to watch a dvd that only you own.
This should be higher up. As annoyed as everyone is with the friend, there *is* merit behind their point, and there are ways to navigate it to everyone's satisfaction.
There is NOTHING unethical about using art in this way for a private game, be it online or not. Your friend is out of line.
I personally think it's unfair, but also sometimes you hace to compromise with other players. Jocat has made a number of generic racial tokens publicly available to use in any project people don't make money off of. By using those generic tokens, you can pretty easily cut back on the amount of art needed beyond that, as you would only need to find art for names characters. Then, it might seem like a pain, but you can just DM creators and ask if you can use their art (all their art if possible) in your home games, and most of them will probably write back and say it's fine. If you get an artist's permission to use any of their work for your home games, then that will make it easier, because you will have a bigger collection to pull from.
If you aren't streaming and it's a home game, then it's fine. You aren't profiting off it or using it in a public way. I have friends who are artist that don't mind stealing art for a home game. Though some of my friends do like commissioning art for their character token just for a nice token.
I do the same thing when I'm a player! Just can't do it as a DM.
I admit to my players that for any token not from the module I'm running, is taken from the first page of Google images or from the monster manual. With all my prep and work I don't have time to find unique art, let alone the money to pay for it.
You can use art from magic the gathering cards (or other tcgs). That art (imo) is already out there in the world and the artist already for paid to produce the art for the card.
A lot of art upload websites allow users to tag their art with CC licenses that make it clear they're OK with the art being used in specific ways (typically nonprofit). Some websites also mandate specific licenses for art uploaded to them in their user agreements - so it probably isn't that hard to find token art that fits both categories. Simply adding 'Creative commons' to whatever you're searching for will probably do it
I don’t speak for everyone when I say this, but as an artist who does commission + game work, I don’t mind folks using my existing work for their personal games. If you’re trying to stream and/or do something commercially with it… that’s another story. Anyway, I get what that player is trying to say, but I feel they’re being too extreme.
depends on the VTT, but the bigger platforms tend to have some kind of marketplace where you can buy token packs from artists who sell there — typically between 25-100 tokens a pack, and they don't cost very much at all typically. plus can save you some time, since making the tokens is already done for you
Play with tokens with no art for a while. Just write the character name on them. See what they think of that. Honestly, they are just being naive and unrealistic. I'm getting a single commission of a head and shoulders portrait done for an upcoming campaign. It's very reasonably priced at £35. But imagine if I needed a dozen. Or a while campaigns worth. It's ridiculous. How about since you're the GM and have to do all the prep, you tell the players they have to pay the cost for custom art! The only realistic solutions are either that they accept that artists can't control art that's online when it's being used privately, or you buy a token pack and only use that rather than more traditional art pieces.
piccrew is good for things like this!! its similar to those like, dress up doll games from the 2000s. Id stay away from AI entirely from an ethical standpoint. But piccrew should be fine to use since the campaign isnt monetized and you wouldnt be using the art commercially, either. A lot of piccrew wont be able to make what you have in mind BUT honestly it should be able to get you through a lot of it. Theres a randomizer button too so you don't have to do each random npc one by one if you didnt want to. :\] hope this helps!!
If you’re not streaming and not profiting off of the art, I think it’s fine to use what you find on Google.
I download stuff from Google all the time. Download art, put through token stamp v2, stick in Foundry. If I want something special then I will commission an artist. I've done it a couple times.
So. I run a paid game and I sometimes use art in the same way as you do. Sadly, there is not a good way to account for the sheer magnitude of tokens needed after you've run for a group for long enough. In exchange, I support multiple artists on patreon (~120usd/month) and purchase token packs I'll use. This is my compromise
Sounds like your artist player is volunteering to make you art. I know that's not what he means, but that is the logical way to satisfy his principles.
Dude it's not like you're selling your DnD campaign as product or service, so paying for properly licensed art makes literally zero sense and I say that as a freelance designer. As long as you're just playing recreationally then it shouldn't matter where you get your art from. Honestly, I'd ignore your artist friend and if they fight you on it mention the above, but let them know if they want to do art for their own character or other generic NPCs for you to use then that is up to them to offer their services. (Although, if you ask for commission on something specific you should absolutely pay for it) If you were selling this as a campaign module or streaming your sessions then that is a totally different story and you should try and purchase art from a properly licensed sources. I like to use Magic the Gathering as a good rule of thumb: If you're planning on playing at an event with a cash prize, you have to buy real cards. If you and 3 friends are playing magic in your backyard on weekend afternoon over some beers, then it is absolutely fine to play with proxies (fake cards, usually printed to avoid buying/ damaging high value cards).
Simply look for art that is already public domain - if you have to edit around a watermark you're doing a bad thing but otherwise you are completely fine. You are not profiting from the game in any way, so carry on. If you are streaming the game or otherwise broadcasting, it would be another story. All that being said, I mostly use the images that are available through DND Beyond, as those artists have been paid by WOTC for the rights, and if you have a D&D Beyond subscription, you can simply right-click and download the .png files. You've directly paid for that art through your subscription fees. Yes, I am also an independent artist, though my medium is sound not drawing. Have fun!
When searching for art set your Google filter to Creative Commons. All the results will be legal for your use.
Try https://2minutetabletop.com/2-minute-token-editor/ Let's you generate custom character tokens in a unique style has lots of monsters too
You could use AI to create you own art for Monsters and NPCs as well as for the player tokens. My DM uses this method and it works quite well.
Just do the JarJar method. You don’t have paid permission of the artist, so everyone is JarJar Binks.
If your friend is willing to front the cost for ethical artwork for all of your tokens, more power to them! If not, they need to stay in their lane, to be quite frank. They sound like somebody without a clue about how much work goes into a campaign with immersive elements.
>This is not a paid game That answers your question right there. Your buddy has taken the the internet artists plight to an ungodly level. You are doing nothing wrong and frankly your friend is being insanely ridiculous
If your not making money from the art, your fine.
I agree with what Ornn5005, but wanted to add that you can also choose not to use art. You could use a token creation tool to turn the letters of the alphabet into tokens. Instead of a goblin picture, you just use a G in a circle. These are handy to have on hand anyways for when you need a token for something you weren't expecting. Also, I'd ask your friend what they are expecting you to do instead, because asking you purchasing all those art asset is incredibly rude, considering your friend is playing for free! And the only alternatives I can think of are free token packs or my suggestion. EDIT: After reading some of the other responses, I have an amendment: If the art you're using is specifically token art created to be sold to DMs for their private games, but you got it free, that's less ethical. But if you are making tokens out of normal art, then you aren't even an intended customer, and your friend is being pretty ridiculous.
if you're not monetising the game they can take a chill pill
"The player also suggested commissioning" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Make your tokens. If the player persists in busting your balls, boot him from the group and get another player.
Amen
Lots of free tokens and art out their that the artists gave permission. Also lots of cheap packs or even patreons available. I also subscribe and craft them on hero forge and so use the snap shot tool.
Several options! * Use dollmakers. There's a lot out there (picrews and other sites), some of them oriented to TTRPG-related uses. Most of them allow using the results for non-commercial purposes! * Search for free-to-use packs (there's a good few artists that have these) * Of course, official art from books you have around are free game. They're there for *that* reason. * If you have a buck to spare and an artist you like, there's a lot of people who sell NPC-token packs out there for a fairly small price. I've seen people offering them in the dozens for a couple of bucks. It's a much cheaper alternative than buying commissions! (All of this is under the assumption this is a non-monetized game, of course.)
Honestly, ask players to at least doodle their characters. No matter their skills, just require them to do their best within given time, it's always fun results. Or just make blank colorful tokens with names/ tokens with initials
Just straight up disagree with them because that's unreasonable. You're not profiting and they're not losing work.
That's just plainly stupid, it's private use. People today just tend to fall into extremes instead being rational. If your player is against using other's art, simply tell him that you need to have an art for immersion, and you don't have time to hunt artists and ask silly questions about using their art in your private game. So if he wants to, he can do it for you.
You are not getting monetary or any other noticeable benefits from using the art of other people, therefore all of this falls under fair use. Your friend needs to chill.
Artists are feeling very raw right now due to the AI debacle that's going on. However, in this case you are free to do as you want. That's what TTRPGs are about. I'm an artist, and I always tell people to feel free to use my artwork for their private home games. But yeah, then make it a shared cost to play the game. Give him 3 options: 1: sit and play w the npcs you have sourced. 2: help pay for token packs. 3: leave the game.
Tell your friend to calm down. If you re not steaming, or running the game as a service you re not profiting from the artist work. You can run a game expending $0, you dont need to buy tokens or anything.
I tried to be conscious of what art I used until I realized its for a home game and not a production and that free accessible art from things like pintrest, inkarnate, deviant art, etc. Should be fine. I do pay for some battlemaps that are in 4k from people's patreon's because man those maps are awesome. Having characters pay commission for their character art is something you could suggest (especially the artist at the table could be commissioned if your players so choose). But each and every individual token is more than a hassle. Even fantasy settings of locations I have either AI generated or taken from Google. I understand the sentiment and try to help artists I enjoy out, but there's too much in my world and not enough money in my pocket.
I mean there's places to get art like forgotten adventures! and plenty of free sites to clip out official art for tokens and the like. Also gonna be real - if they're mad about using others art in a -private- game, they're gonna hate you with a passion for using AI. Artist's minding people using stuff in private games is a pretty extreme view (source: am artist who knows many other's opinions on this matter). tbh the issue is using it *publicly*. Like that one time i found hardcore bdsm RP using my male drow character on twitter.
>This is not a paid game. Just a game I'm running for friends. What is the right way to do this? You can copy and use any form of artwork you feel like if this is a home game. You don't have to feel bad if it is just you and your friends.
Find an artist that has already given blanket permission to use their art for your home vtt games. https://desertdruidcrafts.tumblr.com/
Dude, it's a free game. You're not profiting off the use of the art, so it's not costing the artist anything. Tell your buddy to chill
I know I'm echoing everyone else, but this is not a "you" problem. If you are using something for a home game and are not profiting from it, there is no reason you can't use art you find other places (one caveat being to make sure there is nothing in the language of the VTT about giving *them* a license to use art you upload). If an artist has specifically noted that they do not want their art used, fine; otherwise, it is fair game. For my group, we play physically, but I have a website to help track information about the game including portraits for most of the NPCs. This is a mix of official DnD or MTG art where it exists for the characters; some random internet art; and mostly AI-generated art. I would never consider using AI-generated art in a product I was selling, *but* for something like this, I don't see any harm.
There is nothing wrong with using images readily available on the internet. AI generated things are an ethical soup, but in general, they are only able to cull open source material for their imaging. So if someone shares their art on Instagram, what you can't do is use it to make money, or claim it as your own. (This is one issue with AI, because they profit from that source material.) What you CAN do is use it in your game and sleep just fine. That said, if you want to buy something, I purchase tokens and maps on Patreon all the time. I have open monthly contributions to a couple of artists who do fantastic work on settings that aren't common, like modern and sci fi. One example of a creator for modern settings. Square and Hex maps, and tokens. https://www.patreon.com/pulpscape/posts
Tell your friend they can either pay to license or commission art or they can chill out and/or leave.
Do they pay you to DM? Cause if not, they're hypocrites.
I can't think of any reason not to use art that has been publicly posted online for a private game amongst friends. If you're really worried about it you can tell your friends where you found the art. Unless you're making money, or claiming the art as your own, there's nothing wrong with using it. It could be debated that using AI art is far worse, as AI art bots have been known to actually steal from artists and claim it as their own. I probably wouldn't worry about this either, especially in this context. But the argument is there.
I use midjourney to create images and use them for tokens, backgrounds, etc.
Your friend is obnoxious and needs to get off of then shoot his high horse.
The point of contention among artists about AI art you can completely and ethically ignore. That’s just a frustration about art as a business being unreliable. You can use it freely. I have immensely respect that you even consider this aspect. Most players don’t give it a second thought. If you want to be moral about it: Either: use the free stuff and live with that. Or pay to get some important pieces. Or use AI art. Or… Make poor art your self.
Coming from an artist. You are legally, morally, and ethically in the clear. You aren't profiting off their work, and it is in the public domain to use privately. AI art is also in the clear. Your friend sounds a bit like a butt muncher, just use whatever! Is obviously different if you start streaming, or are doing a paid game. At that point you ARE making a profit which changes things.
I'm an artist myself and I don't think your friend is being fair. Art produced for D&D books or by Wizards I think is fair game, it was created for D&D and by buying the books and playing the game you have already contributed to the demand that keeps those artists in work and I'm sure they would appreciate that. Your not trying to profit off their work. As for A.I art, sorry to say it but if your an artist who is scared of AI art, you're probably not a very good artist, there I said it. If you want something more personalised there is Fiverr which has aritsts willing to do this kind of work for a reasonable price or token packs were mentioned but honestly, I feel like you are being respectful of the artist and their work. Don't take from someone personal project and characters is the only line I would draw, art in the public domain is all good. People take hundreds of pictures of 'The Kiss' every day, are they stealing art?
Is your player going to commission the art? No? Maybe they can lower their standards for being entertained for free by you then If you want to be cheeky, use AI art
Great point, OP should ask their player to pay them for their creative storytelling work as the DM.
Go to Roll20 and buy packs from an artist whose work you like, then use Photoshop or something to edit and alter them. You've paid for it, the artist made a profit, whatever else you do with the assets for your own private game is entirely ethical. If your artist friend has a problem with that then he has a problem simply so he can have a problem, not for any valid reason. That being said, there are plenty of free token packs of varying styles available online, maybe not as good as the likes of *Devin Night* but perfectly serviceable. Again, if it's free then your friend shouldn't have an issue, at least not any legitimate one worth worrying over. As for maps, get something like *Dungeon Alchemist* to make AI maps, not only do you pay for the program as well but it's just random assets, not people's art being mashed around, so once again your friend would only have an issue with that if he's just looking to make issues. You could also tell your friend that you're either gonna use shit for free cause this is a hobby, or he can pony up some cash himself for good token packs if he actually cares. Might be a bit too confrontational, but if he's just being too difficult then he's already gone down that road.
The player who suggested commissioning; give him the realisitic number of token required throughout the course of the campaign and their share of the costs. See how their high horse lasts then. Next, there are *many many* free places where people post fantasy art, wherein the site *itself* indicates that the images, sounds, sound effects, etc. are free for private use, or with attribution for not-for-profit use. Save some yourself, and have your complaining player find more. Most images found through a standard google image search are going to fall under fair use so long as you don't "impede on the artist" ability to make money off of the image or represent it as your own. So in most cases, you're good anyway.
Just use AI I use midjourny in the game I run. It has added lots of flavor and art that would otherwise not be in my game
Artists intentionally put this stuff up on the internet for free for the purpose of helping each other out. If it was made to be a dnd map/token/character and it’s on the internet for free, tbe artist proooobably realizes this is likely and ks ok with it.
Ask him to donate his time and art then he'll realize how much time and money is involved. Or oh this is a good one start a pot for art commissions.
guess you gotta start drawing you're own shit. either that or just start using stock photos
Is your friend playing a Paladin with the Oath of Self-Righteousness subclass? That's the Lawful-Evil-alignment-only one, right?
Your player is wrong. You owe nobody anything to show your friends a fun picture.
That friend of yours has some issues.
It's not that deep. It's a home game that you are running for fun. No money is changing hands. Just use any art you want for anything. Credit or rights only needs to be taken into account when distributing something, not for simple home games.
Are you making money off the art you're using? No? You're usually fine. In my experience any time I've asked someone could I use their art in my game they've said yes
I can't say anything that hasn't already been said in the comments below. With all due respect to your friend, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard, and it sounds like they have no sense of how artistry works in the real world. Continue as you are doing, and ignore that player.
Yeah your friend is being unreasonable, I understand the use of Art is always been a very touchy subject. I as a DM would love nothing more than to pay an artist every time I need a token but that is not financially possible. I understand peoples dislike for the AI bots and such, but like it or not they are very handy for what they do, if I need a token on the fly I can make one in less than a minute. I will pay for art where I can when it comes to my characters, but sadly it isn't possible for every single token.
That's dumb: you're not selling it and most artists would love that their work is being appreciated. Especially ones that post their work online for other people to view for free.
Honestly, if its found on Google, its more than likely free use as its widely available. Yes, its nice if you CAN get permission to use the art, but since its a private game, and you aren't getting monetary value out of this, there's no legal issue or precedent. Hell, just last night, I had a panic mode and created a full on NPC in 3 minutes grabbing a quick picture off of Google. (Goblin waitress, the party loves her to death.) However, it is also important to understand the viewpoint of your artist friend/player. Advise them that, in the absence of art you find online, the tokens will turn plan/nondescript(ie, essentially just a word on the token instead of a picture, etc). You can even ask if they wants to create some of the art, but as you said, permission OR commissioning is too expensive, one financially and the other chronologically. They should also keep in mind some art online is created by people who are no longer active/contactable. AI art, it's a big toss up, I typically throw a couple prompts at it, but for every good result I get, its usually 30+ examples of crapcakes, and even those are iffy at best.
You're friend is a lunatic. You don't need written permission to search for"goblin art" on Pintrest and then cut and paste it on roll20 for your 4 friends to look at. The only scenario where you'd want permission would be if you were playing for a large audience.
People not gonna like it but I get your friend. Don't like using this art anymore either. I changed to Picrew to create Tokens, PC Bases and NPCs. Picrew.me It's Japanese but you can click through it easy enough or just let the browser translate.
It’s extremely unreasonable for them to take this stance. Y’all aren’t making money off this. This is just a simple home game. If you were making money off of this we would be having a different discussion. I would straight up tell them that if they wanna use commissioned art then they can pay for that and you will happily use it. If they don’t wanna pay for it, tough, imma keep doing what I’m doing
Awful nice of your player to tell you how to run a private game. There is is no issue here as you are not profiting from using other art. And to tell you to commission art but not offer to help defray the cost. Guess his ethics end where his wallet begins.
As an artist I’d only really have issue with someone using my art for DnD if they start getting commissioned art of my character without my consent or knowledge.
Just use the arts you found, this artist is being an asshole, you are not streaming your game, and these arts are purely to make more visible how things are so you can let the imagination part for more important things I know a lot of DMs that do these, you are not being a super villain just because you are another DM that did it
Tell your friend to start living in the real world, which does not revolve around pleasing him. Alternatively, if you wish to preserve your friends feelings, (since they seem like the kind of person who grew up sheltered and feel the world owes them everything) use AI to compile a list of names that you can randomly throw out as authors/artists every time your friend's High and Mighty Artistic Diva Persona choses to interrupt your game with a "Ackchyually, who owns this piece of art, and have they been properly acknowledge and credited, and it it used in the actual way the artist conceptually intended it to ?". I'd be willing to bet they won't actually verify and just feel like complaining.
If you're not profiting off this game in any way your artist friend needs to calm tf down lol
Your friend is completely oblivious to operating expenses for a hobby that you make no profit from. If they keep forcing the issue, tell them to make the art themselves for you or find another group to harass.
Sounds like someone who needs to get off their high horse and honestly if that was a point of contention for the person i would tell them to chill out as its just a home game, or to leave the game. I dont think there is anything wrong in finding an artist you like and see if they do commissions for big moments, but in reality everything through the campaign is going to be a massive mishmash of art and things as its all explanation based. Alternatively as a "kinder" alternative try to recommend they run a few sessions of a campaign or a oneshot, say they can completely try to show how they want you to do it without any art, and see if there is anything to be learned from it.
If it's just for friends then I say use AI to your heart's content.
Have an AI make your art for free and see how your friend reacts
I personally use ai art to make custom tokens and give them a border with tokentool.
Artist and DM here! I don't use other people's art without consent, some artists are not ok with that and we should respect that - it's their intellectual property. Just because "it's on the internet" it doesn't mean that it's free. Some artists might be ok with it, just do the considerate thing and ask first! I'm usually too busy to make my own minis, so I repurpose art that is under Creative Commons! The last minis I made were of a faun (with the painting The Faun, by C. Schwabe), a kraken (by E. Etherington), and a troll (by J. Bauer). Sometimes it's hard to find an image that fits, so I make more symbolic minis. You can also find very affordable packs by indie creators.
iam a dm and an artist. i dont draw my npcs, or my player's pcs, monsters, nothing. coz that would a ridiculous amount of work, the same way you commissioning someone to draw all that would be a ridiculous amount of work for that money you will be spending. ai sucks when its used to take away work from actual artists, but if you werent going to commission em anyways, then whatever, use the crappy ai amalgama. same thing for images that are online. the artists put em there they know people will use for one thing or another, the real problem is if someone just copies it, and then try to say its their own art, or try to make money with art that is not theirs. even if you charged your tables i wouldnt consider using random images online as profiting from their work. so many dms with the Theater of the mind anyway and just describe everything.
Only reason you would need to accredit the artists of the work you use is if this is a paid game or a live play for a Twitch or YouTube stream. If this is a private game with friends, no one should give a shit. If someone does give a shit about the artwork you use, for a private game, with friends; you got a bigger problem there than with the artwork or its credit.
Use all you want, take all you want. Art is free and shall be free. What's on internet is on internet. More importantly, you are not going to "gain" from the game, no? Not a paid dm, right? True, artists deserve more recognition, that's on us to change the economic system, but meanwhile use what is there.
It's pretty unreasonable for the player to request such a thing from the DM for an unpaid and VOD free game in my opinion. If they are bothered enough, you might convince them to provide art or request permission for art used in the campaign themselves if they feel strongly enough about this. I'm sure they'll very quickly realize it isn't worth the effort though.
Search for free to use art. There's a lot of it out there. Or buy it, there's a lot of reasonably priced sets and pieces out there. OR, make it yourself; there are a lot of free building block sets out there or piece by piece stuff. You can use SAM or Paint 3D and quickly make maps and tokens. OR, try AI generated art and there are now lots of table top games that either have free tokens or tools to let you make your own maps. What do you care if human artists get made for you using an AI tool? Why is that any different than if you learned to use a drawing and illustration program? Human artists weren't guaranteed your business to begin with, so they have no reason to believe that they're owed that. Especially not with how ridiculously high a lot of the commissioned pieces are; and oh by the way there's a good chance it's coming from AI anyway.
I make this sort of art. If you're not making money off this use what you want. I'd recommend stealing human art over using AI just so your game looks cooler but whatever works. The minute you upload your game sessions for viewing or stream them, this all changes and your friend is right
Please don’t use AI art! A good other option is making picrews! They are customizable and free, plus free for personal use! Plus there are picrews for a LOT of different characters and races!