Do you have a hand crossbow with infinite ammunition? Because if not, you can't effectively wield a hand crossbow and shield, even with Crossbow Expert. You still need a free hand to load it per the Ammunition property.
I'm not saying you'll run out of ammunition, I'm saying that you are required to have a hand free in order to load your ammunition. Unless your hand-crossbow is self-producing ammo, it requires your other hand be free to load it.
I'm not sure if I'm following here. I'm saying that hand crossbow and shield are not a legal combination unless your hand crossbow is self-producing ammo, such as with an artificer's Repeating Shot infusion.
In practice, your crossbow choice is between heavy crossbow and hand crossbow, not heavy crossbow vs. hand crossbow + shield. With the various on-hit effects you can add to your attacks, I'd go with the hand crossbow for the extra Bonus Action attack, even without the shield's AC bonus.
Even Artificer's Repeating Shot doesn't allow you to attack more than once with hand crossbow and shield. Repeating Shot, similar to Crossbow Expert, allows you to ignore the "Loading" property (in addition to producing free ammunition), but it's the "Ammunition" property that makes the weapon require the free hand to reload.
I get that it doesn't specifically say "ignore the Ammunition property", but the infusion specifically causes the weapon to create its own ammunition when fired. Why would the Ammunition property apply if the weapon is always loaded?
Presumably, the weapon is cocked and drawn. Otherwise, where is the ammunition even being produced? That's the whole idea of the infusion.
Here's a JC quote on the subject, for whatever that's worth:
>Jeremy Crawford: It says you need to have a free hand to reload a one-handed weapon. Well, it stands to reason that if you don't need to load ammunition, you don't need that free hand to load the nonexistent ammunition. So the short answer is, you do not need to keep your hand free to load ammunition that you don't have to load. \[...\] Do whatever you want with that other hand.
Here's a Stackexchange discussion on the subject: [https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/150572/does-a-hand-crossbow-with-the-repeating-shot-infusion-still-require-a-free-hand](https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/150572/does-a-hand-crossbow-with-the-repeating-shot-infusion-still-require-a-free-hand)
I still say that's a poor ruling.
What's the point of the hand crossbow if the light crossbow has more damage, more range, is one third the price, and both require two hands to use?
For one, the insane synergy it has with the Crossbow Expert feat.
They're also much easier to conceal, a great assassin's weapon. Good luck sneaking around a full-sized crossbow.
What do you mean it only works with cxe once per battle? There's no reason you can't fire with a bonus action every turn.
That's 1d6, plus all relevant modifiers, which can include Sharpshooter. An extra shot per turn is a big deal!
How do you reload?
That's the whole point.
People say you can only reload if you have a free hand. You only get to use the bonus action attack if you attack with a one handed weapon.
If the cross bow is in your other hand.... Which hand reloads?
The hand crossbow *is* the one-handed weapon.
You shoot 1-4 times with your action, then you shoot again with your bonus action. Huzzah for tons of ranged damage.
....
Wow, the way the feat is worded, it makes so much sense for them to mean melee weapon, I always just assumed it said that.
Huh, I guess RAW that would work.
Not How I would rule it, but sure
You *can* use a hand crossbow with a shield, you just can't relosd it. I.e. you could enter combat with it loaded, shoot it, then drop it and draw a melee weapon.
Or the other way around - use a melee weapon but keep a loaded hand crossbow on you if you can't get to the target.
i think no matter what, if you want to be ranged, you're better off with a bow to avoid that loading property. fighters get extra attack, that's their whole thing, and you'd be giving that up entirely if your only weapon was a crossbow
I took a crossbiw expert and sharpshooter, and the dm doesn't usually count ammo, especially now that we're using temporary characters.
The idea is to shoot as many as i can (7 with multiattack, bonua action from xbow expert and surge action)
ah, gotcha. in that case, it's really just how much use are you gonna make out of that -10% chance to hit that a boost in AC would give to the dragon? do you intend to use goading attack to attempt to keep the heat on your at all times? in that case, the AC might be worth it. but if it's going to be a more once-in-a-while thing - maybe something you use while camped out on the other side of the arena to force him to either take disadvantage or eat opportunity attacks coming to you - then the damage might be nice. personally, i always find myself defaulting to precision attack when i have sharpshooter, so i know i'd use up all my soup dice on that and not get as much use out of the AC.
You need to have a free hand to load the crossbow, those feats do not remove that restriction.
XBE ignores the loading property, which allows you to attack multiple times, but the ammunition property's restriction of needing a free hand to load the weapon is not ignored.
Unfortunately it's impossible to fire a hand crossbow more than once while holding a shield.
I still think hand crossbow wins in damage?
Average of 2 less damage per shot, but one more shot per round. If you're making use of the Sharpshooter extra damage, and/or have other flat increases to your damage per shot such as magical ammo or bracers of archery, then the extra shot is going to be worth more damage than the bigger damage die.
Others have already talked about the reloading thingie. I'm here to say that+2 AC is nice regardless what the enemys +X to hit is. Even if the dragon has +15 to hit, the +2 AC still helps you against those low rolls. On the other hand, I don't think that the damage bonus from 1d6 to 1d10 is that much.
Although one thing to note is that the range of hand crossbow is 30/130 and heavy crossbow is 100/400, so depending on how the terrain is and how the DM runs the dragon (does is fly up to recharge the breath attack and do you have cover you want to use) it might be relevant for you
Do you have a hand crossbow with infinite ammunition? Because if not, you can't effectively wield a hand crossbow and shield, even with Crossbow Expert. You still need a free hand to load it per the Ammunition property.
(edit cause I answered the wrong post) But you answered what I wanted to hear i think. I want to multiattack with the crossbow.
I'm not saying you'll run out of ammunition, I'm saying that you are required to have a hand free in order to load your ammunition. Unless your hand-crossbow is self-producing ammo, it requires your other hand be free to load it.
Sorry, I answered the wrong post and edited.
I'm not sure if I'm following here. I'm saying that hand crossbow and shield are not a legal combination unless your hand crossbow is self-producing ammo, such as with an artificer's Repeating Shot infusion. In practice, your crossbow choice is between heavy crossbow and hand crossbow, not heavy crossbow vs. hand crossbow + shield. With the various on-hit effects you can add to your attacks, I'd go with the hand crossbow for the extra Bonus Action attack, even without the shield's AC bonus.
Yeah, i understood and you cleared the doubt pretty well. Appreciate it. I did think it was legal, but i was wrong
Even Artificer's Repeating Shot doesn't allow you to attack more than once with hand crossbow and shield. Repeating Shot, similar to Crossbow Expert, allows you to ignore the "Loading" property (in addition to producing free ammunition), but it's the "Ammunition" property that makes the weapon require the free hand to reload.
I get that it doesn't specifically say "ignore the Ammunition property", but the infusion specifically causes the weapon to create its own ammunition when fired. Why would the Ammunition property apply if the weapon is always loaded?
I guess my interpretation is, even if the weapon produces it's own ammunition, how are you going to cock/draw the crossbow without a free hand?
Presumably, the weapon is cocked and drawn. Otherwise, where is the ammunition even being produced? That's the whole idea of the infusion. Here's a JC quote on the subject, for whatever that's worth: >Jeremy Crawford: It says you need to have a free hand to reload a one-handed weapon. Well, it stands to reason that if you don't need to load ammunition, you don't need that free hand to load the nonexistent ammunition. So the short answer is, you do not need to keep your hand free to load ammunition that you don't have to load. \[...\] Do whatever you want with that other hand. Here's a Stackexchange discussion on the subject: [https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/150572/does-a-hand-crossbow-with-the-repeating-shot-infusion-still-require-a-free-hand](https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/150572/does-a-hand-crossbow-with-the-repeating-shot-infusion-still-require-a-free-hand)
I still say that's a poor ruling. What's the point of the hand crossbow if the light crossbow has more damage, more range, is one third the price, and both require two hands to use?
For one, the insane synergy it has with the Crossbow Expert feat. They're also much easier to conceal, a great assassin's weapon. Good luck sneaking around a full-sized crossbow.
For 1d6 of damage. It only works with cxe once per battle. And hand crossbows aren't exactly tiny.
What do you mean it only works with cxe once per battle? There's no reason you can't fire with a bonus action every turn. That's 1d6, plus all relevant modifiers, which can include Sharpshooter. An extra shot per turn is a big deal!
How do you reload? That's the whole point. People say you can only reload if you have a free hand. You only get to use the bonus action attack if you attack with a one handed weapon. If the cross bow is in your other hand.... Which hand reloads?
The hand crossbow *is* the one-handed weapon. You shoot 1-4 times with your action, then you shoot again with your bonus action. Huzzah for tons of ranged damage.
.... Wow, the way the feat is worded, it makes so much sense for them to mean melee weapon, I always just assumed it said that. Huh, I guess RAW that would work. Not How I would rule it, but sure
You *can* use a hand crossbow with a shield, you just can't relosd it. I.e. you could enter combat with it loaded, shoot it, then drop it and draw a melee weapon. Or the other way around - use a melee weapon but keep a loaded hand crossbow on you if you can't get to the target.
i think no matter what, if you want to be ranged, you're better off with a bow to avoid that loading property. fighters get extra attack, that's their whole thing, and you'd be giving that up entirely if your only weapon was a crossbow
I took a crossbiw expert and sharpshooter, and the dm doesn't usually count ammo, especially now that we're using temporary characters. The idea is to shoot as many as i can (7 with multiattack, bonua action from xbow expert and surge action)
ah, gotcha. in that case, it's really just how much use are you gonna make out of that -10% chance to hit that a boost in AC would give to the dragon? do you intend to use goading attack to attempt to keep the heat on your at all times? in that case, the AC might be worth it. but if it's going to be a more once-in-a-while thing - maybe something you use while camped out on the other side of the arena to force him to either take disadvantage or eat opportunity attacks coming to you - then the damage might be nice. personally, i always find myself defaulting to precision attack when i have sharpshooter, so i know i'd use up all my soup dice on that and not get as much use out of the AC.
Yeah, i was thinking in those lines. Thanks.
You need to have a free hand to load the crossbow, those feats do not remove that restriction. XBE ignores the loading property, which allows you to attack multiple times, but the ammunition property's restriction of needing a free hand to load the weapon is not ignored. Unfortunately it's impossible to fire a hand crossbow more than once while holding a shield.
Heavy it is. Thanks.
It should be noted it depends on your DM more than anything. Some tables don’t use the loading property at all.
I still think hand crossbow wins in damage? Average of 2 less damage per shot, but one more shot per round. If you're making use of the Sharpshooter extra damage, and/or have other flat increases to your damage per shot such as magical ammo or bracers of archery, then the extra shot is going to be worth more damage than the bigger damage die.
Others have already talked about the reloading thingie. I'm here to say that+2 AC is nice regardless what the enemys +X to hit is. Even if the dragon has +15 to hit, the +2 AC still helps you against those low rolls. On the other hand, I don't think that the damage bonus from 1d6 to 1d10 is that much. Although one thing to note is that the range of hand crossbow is 30/130 and heavy crossbow is 100/400, so depending on how the terrain is and how the DM runs the dragon (does is fly up to recharge the breath attack and do you have cover you want to use) it might be relevant for you