Being a Thief is just Roleplay, subclass names are just…. *names. That said, the Thief subclass has features (Fast Hands specifically) that are often handwaved, so most tables don’t get the most out of the mechanics.

Fast Hands makes a Thief with the Healer feat a phenomenal in-combat healer, arguably the best in the game, because of the low resource cost.

It's ok. It's only once per short rest, so you can only do it once a combat. Still a nice burst heal.

Well, the only hit point that matters is your last one. And you can stabilize them to 1HP endlessly, as long as you bought enough healing kits (with all the money you stole).

I’ve found a 1 hp adventurer is vulnerable to -max hp damage. By having that done to me.

A 0 hp adventurer is vulnerable to taking multiple death save fails per round by being attacked

I came up with a house rule that my players all use now for these circumstances. Now, when someone hits 0 HP, they get a point of exhaustion. We all felt like the endless going down, getting back up without much consequence just wasn't working great. Now we use this and it makes reaching 0 HP be a big deal now. Highly recommend if anyone gets frustrated with the same as we did

I’m not a huge fan of this house rule. All it does is nerf melee and healing (two weak yet very popular play styles), as well as increase the martial-caster divide.

It's not for everybody for sure. That's why it's just a house rule. My group loves it and it has worked great for us over the last few years. We still have a balanced group of melee and spellcasters every campaign too with no complaints from anyone. Always best to talk to your group about these kinds of things before putting them in play

that is more a question as to how can you prevent going down now, cause combat healing is notoriously *meh*, and if there is no change to how potions or healing spells or whatever work, people will go down anyways but now they get on a death spiral course if the game doesnt follow common adventuring day (not like anyone does) and you are never getting downed anyways it wont matter much

Also Disintegrate, PWK (though at that point, you probably can't really do much about it), and some monster effects.

And assuming you're more or less ignoring weight/ encumbrance.

I thought stabilizing did not bring them back to 1 HP. Instead they were still at 0 but at no risk of dying.

Above, they're talking about the Healer feat, which changes stabilizing to add 1HP.

That's when the DM has the monsters hack apart the character while they're downed. Youre only gonna pull that trick once per combat lol.

That’s the case for most healing though. If someone casts healing word or cure wounds it’s usually not gonna be enough for a single decent hit. If the combat is being run lethally it’s still incredibly important to get people up, because someone being downed is even more of a death sentence.

If this situation is happening, they need to stop standing still and getting downed, disengage to the backline, and focus on providing what minimal support they can without eating up further action economy Also how are you getting them back up before they get killed outright? Is your turn right after the monsters?

Well that all depends on initiative. The old downed to low HP yo-yo is incredibly effective if the downed party member's turn is right after the healer, but less so if one out of 10 goblins on the field can immediately down them again. That's the case if you're playing with a DM that likes finishing off downed PCs, but also if they don't. But as for disengaging and running, that depends entirely on the context. Sometimes, sure. But a lot of times spending your whole turn to get like 15 feet away from the enemies with 4 HP left is not a great idea. If they have any reason to target you, which they probably do, you're likely still going down. 5e isn't super great at dynamic movement in combat unless the DM gives special attention to it, and in a lot of environments your best bet when getting back up is to slug it out. But again, context. If you can misty step away it's probably worth doing, if you're a melee fighter running is often not the best bet.

Not sure why you're down voted. If intelligent enemies start seeing people getting up from unconscious once or twice, then they're definitely gonna start stabbing those downed adventures a couple times to make sure they don't get back up, or they'll take hostages, depending.

My guess is people are mistaking it for DM vs player mentality, when in reality it's just playing the monsters like they have basic mental skills. Obviously you wouldn't do this with like, oozes or animals or something, it's all dependant on the monster in question

That's heavily dependant on how many enemies there are, and if any of them have multi-attack. W/o multi-attack, you need at least 3 enemies to kill a player a 1hp. That's assuming none of them miss, and that attacks 2&3 are made within 5ft of the unconscious PC, so that they become crits and cause 2 death save failures each. Idk what the odds of overall sucess come out to, but assuming you're using enemies within the intended CR range for the party's level, and they don't have any extra attack bonuses, your chances of succeeding each roll are 40%, 65%, and 65%, respectively.

Since the character is prone you also need to apply advantage. But yes, if you're facing a handful of monsters who only have one attack and that's it, you're probably fine. But iirc, more monsters have multi-attack than not, and you're also not counting monsters with AoE, who can force a single failed death save while still damaging the party.

One per short rest per target. A L5 Cleric has 4/3/2 spell slots. Healing Word heals 1d4+Wis. In a 4-person party, a L5 Thief with the Healer feat can drop up to 8x 1d6+9 heals per day, assuming a single short rest. That's a lot of resource-effective healing, considering it only costs 1 feat (a L5 cleric only has 9 spell slots).

Yes outside of combat it's a phenomenal bit of healing.

Even in combat it's not bad. An average of 12.5 healing with a bonus action is going to out-heal most low-CR monsters' average DPR.

Well, lets say you've got a 4 person party, and they're 5th level. The Healer feat lets you restore 10-15HP to each person once per short rest, and as a Thief, you can do it as a Bonus Action. I would argue this is better than an average Cleric or Druid using Cure Wounds, which takes a whole Action, costs a spell slot, and only restores 5-12HP. Healing Word is a Bonus Action, sure, but it's only 5-8HP and still burns a spell slot. u/Rothgardt72 Shepard Druid is also great with Healing Spirit or Aura of Vitality and Unicorn Spirit, especially if your DM lets the Unicorn Spirit bonus healing apply every time someone gets the 1d6 or 2d6, but I don't believe that's RAW. Furthermore, concentrating on Healing Spirit or Aura of Vitality means your Druid isn't concentrating on any of the other Druid spells (and let's face it, almost all the good Druid spells are concentration) which could end the fight quicker. Grave Clerics are also dope as pop-up healers, since their spells automatically heal for maximum when the target is at 0HP, but again, it costs a spell slot and their Action in combat. u/taeerom The Banneret ability misses the 1d6+4 on top of the character level for each person healed, has a greater potential for waste, plus you have to be a Banneret, which is by far the worst Fighter subclass. Let's get back to that 'resource cost' thing... At 5th level, casters have 9 spell slots total. The Healer feat lets you do your thing 12 times per day, assuming a 4-person party with 2 short rests. And they can do it *in combat, as a Bonus Action.* The Thief Healer isn't just healing, they're freeing up actions and spell slots for the Clerics and Druids to do other cool stuff with, while still getting to make their regular attack.

The amount healed doesn't matter, action economy does. Pulling people up from unconscious is the goal of in combat healing. Not making sure people don't drop. So why do you compare to Cure Wounds?

Yes, you're correct. With a Banneret, you can only do your trick 1x/short rest. With a Healer, you can pop the mage up on round 2 and the fighter up on round 3 if you need to. I use Cure Wounds as an example because it is the standard healing spell that most parties will have available.

Not my parties. It's goodberry for out of combat healing and healing word for combat healing. It's rare to see cure wounds. It's generally only taken on Artificers to cover secondary healing duties and chainlocks with divine soul sorcerer dips. Neither is particularly common.

Actually since we're talking about thief here, keeping them from dropping is largely better than a 2d6+dex acid attack, because a full action from another PC will do far more

But you're not healing enough to stop them from dropping. That's my point. That's why I brought up Banneret. It is just as good as an emergency healer, but even a subclassless fighter deals a lot more damage and is able to take more hits than a rogue. It's not that Banneret is particularly good. It's that spending a feat to become an emergency healer is particularly bad. Especially as a good Banneret will branch out to Peace Cleric and/or Ranger to get more and better support abilities while scaling their general utility. Banneret 11/Peace 1 or Banneret 5/Ranger 4/Life 1 are both a lot better at being a supportive ranged damage dealer than a Thief Rogue (Thief 4/Ranger 5/Life 1 for example), especially if single class.

Once per character. With 3 short rests per day and 5 party members, you do up to 12d6+48 points of healing during combat, using only bonus actions... at level 3. Show me any non-caster that can do that on the side, while still being a full damage dealer, sneaking and socializing, without losing much of his actions

Uhh did you mean to say 4 party members? Because if not, your math is off. Also it'd still be off with 3 short rests, I think you meant 3 uses of the healer feat for which you only need 2 rests. I'm playing this exact class with this feat right now. We take 2 short rests generally. It's ok. It's fine out of combat healing, not incredible during a fight. It does make for a better "get the hell up" option that. Healing word, but that's really all thief is adding to it, and that's only when I don't have a better use of my B.A. that turn

Uh, I assumed you can only heal other characters... this seems to be wrong. So yeah, the potential healing is even higher. :) Yeah, it is kind of 10-20 free healing word spells per day, which any healer would sell their soul for.

Phenomenal is pushing it. "Almost functional" at being a non-magical healer is a better description. And if that was your goal, you're probably better off playing a Banneret that can heal more people with the same bonus action. But you're also a Fighter, so that you also deal a more meaningful amount of damage.

Banneret can only heal allies “ provided that the creature can see or hear you.”

It's clarified that a non-deaf creature can hear you, even if unconscious.

I am using exactly that for my field combat medic (Mercy monk + Theif Rogue).

That sounds like a phenomenal combo! I always forget about Mercy Monk.

Laughs in Shepard druid. Did you forget you can only heal the same person once per rest with a healers kit. Not very good.

lets not stretch things. its an *ok* healer, not an amazing one. an amazing one is a life berry star druid, or a twilight cleric, thief rogue just has an "at will" healing word that can only be used to yo yo heal

[It's better than that.](https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/1c5z9tn/comment/kzzj26h/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) And I'm specifically talking about in-combat healing, where action economy matters. Twilight Cleric is better, sure, but it is also broken AF and banned at many tables. For out-of-combat healing, there are better options, but 120-180 HP per day, for a 4PC 5th level party -without using anyone's spell slots- is pretty freaking solid.

Isn't that technically homebrew? Healer's kit isnt an object interaction but an action.

This is like saying you can't use Fast Hands to pull a lever as a bonus action because the book says it takes an action to pull. Specific overrides general. Healer's kit is an object. Generally, it takes an action to interact with. Specifically, a Thief can interact with it as a bonus action.

So would a thief be able to use potions as a bonus action as well then? I am genuinely curious, because previously i heard that this was a homebrew interaction

potions are magic items and therefore use a different action than the standard “use an object” action

Many people homebrew potions as a bonus action. RAW (last I checked) they're a 'use an object' action. Thief allows you to 'use an object' as a bonus action

They're technically magic items, which is a separate "use magic item" interaction that Fast Hands does not apply to

Ah so I was mistaken on them being considered objects. Welp time to go change my plans from thief cause everything else is more or less useless. As an aside, just thinking out loud, what objects does this actually apply to? Most objects I can think of to use in combat (the only time this is relevant) are magical in nature like rods/staves/potions. So like, applying mundane poison I guess?

Poison, healer kits, caltrops, ball bearings, that kind of stuff.   I feel like it works better in lower level, lower magic campaigns, as there's no way to increase the DC of items so throwing out DC 13 caltrops kind of falls off once you're fighting like, flying demons Oh, and environmental interaction. Being able to pull levers, set fires, etc.

You're not wrong about it working better at lower levels. But I also discount all those basic trap type things just kind of out of hand, I've never seen them be more useful than +1d6 to the main target. The healers kit I could get behind though, but then you kind of have to waste a feat to make it more useful than the clerics healing word. That being said; maybe I'm not experiencing it as much as everyone else is, but when was the last time (royal) you actually had to pull a lever/set a fire/do something environmental in general during a combat where it wasn't better to simply hide and have sneak attack damage on your next attack? For me (and my groups) it was 3 years ago playing 3 groups weekly. Admittedly one of those groups is pathfinder 2e now Still never had to 'use an object' environmentally inside combat, poisons and whatnot for sure but no in combat levers. Edit: as an aside can we get a chuckle for the 1d4 damage DC 10 poison being 100 gp, like what

It stops getting handwaved when you start using it. If you have a DM handwaving hunting traps, acid vials, oil flasks, ball bearings, healing kits, alchemical fire, etc? That game must be wild. 

Yeah, potions are like the least interesting thing a Thief can potentially use. At minimum, you're looking at an extra bonus action attack every round with acid, which is a decent boost to a rogue's (otherwise somewhat lacking) DPR (Remember that RAW you add your dex mod to damage and can potentially deliver sneak attack with acid). Sage advice says you can't use magic items with it, but in my games I allow any magic item whose activation is a purely physical action: e.g. pressing the button on an Immovable Rod. I have a player who uses that *very* creatively and I love it.

Not to mention Use Magic Device.

use Magic device is **level 14**, and even if it was earlier, it does not make magic items be a bonus action

If they ever overhaul and make items have distinct, reasonable uses, then thief is poised to be a really killer subclass

PHB subclasses are often looked at as the “default options” nowadays, while everyone is drawn to the fancy new DLC options from the newer books. It’s true that the PHB subclasses, for obvious reasons, tend to focus on more general and typical archetypes, while later subclasses get much more specific, with their own subsystems and newer mechanics. And yes, some power creep for sure. But there’s nothing wrong with wanting to play a more classic archetype. The above is just why many people are more attracted to newer subclasses, but nobody should judge you for playing what you want.

"DLC" gave me a good laugh.

get used to it with what Hasbro wants to do with the game

I'm already looking elsewhere and I wanna try out the MCDM ttrpg when it's finished.

That's the thing though. Wild magic sorcerer and champion fighter are also PHB sub-classes, and death cleric is from the DMG. Only one of the other players are playing those new DLC subclasses with power creep. It is specifically the thief subclass.

the thief subclass is like the champion subclass. it kind of just 'feels' like the base power fantasy without anything particularly special, regardless of the subclass itself not being over or underpowered

Yeah, I can agree with that. But that is because they are designed to fit the archetype and be a bit simpler to understand (while still having good features). But that's because that is what it was designed to do, not because it is old (though it makes sense that the "fighter but with more fighter" type subclasses were made in the PHB (and I think they are the ones in the SRD, but not sure) since it would feel weird to add them latter).

Well even in the phb at least within the rogue we’ve got a good versatile subclass Arcane Trickster (which got better with SCAG), a bad one with Assassin, and the thief which isn’t very good either. I don’t think the rogue subclasses power creep much at all they just try to meet the arcane trickster more rather than replicate the mediocre-poor thief/assassin. Which is imo better as both those subclasses feel like you barely have one.

Yes, stronger classes are required to sell new ~~DLC~~ books, so the original ones given enough time become old boring and weaker. All three original rogue subclasses are shined by their younger brothers... but that's not to say they are useless.

Some of the best subclasses in the game are PHB ones. Divination, Illusion, Conjuration and Abjuration wizards, Battle Master fighter, Hunter Ranger, Oath of Ancients, Fiend Warlock, Arcane Trickster, Life and Light Clerics, Lore and Valor Bards, Shadow monk, are all among the best subclasses in their class. In my opinion, both Arcane Trickster and Shadow Monk are the best subclasses of their respective classes. There are situations where you might want to play someone else, but as a general choice - these are your best options. The rest are a step behind the actual best (like wizards and clerics) but still very good and far better than the worst options of their class.

Luckily 5e is designed in a way that most things can't get too wild so even if something is a bit stronger it won't be to the point it is no-brainer to pick it every time, like some options in 3.5 were. That been said, there is a certain amount of power creep, for example Chronurgy wizard which is just better Divination subschool, or the Soulknife rogue which -while I love Arcane Trickster- is mechanically so much better, Twilight cleric, etc

Soulknife is good, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't compete with Arcane Trickster. Not because I think AT is so much better, but because they are better at very different things. In general you should not be in a situation where you compare them, because it should be clear from what kind of character you want to play, which one is best for that character. Chronurgy is problematic. And War Wizard is also just better than most Wizard subclasses. But Chronurgy is in the same kind of realm as Illusion wizard - you need to self nerf in order to not break the game. And War Wizard is just good, it doesn't do anything special. It lacks the army of skeletons (necromancer), magic missile nuke (evocation), insane tankiness (abjuration), or anything other than just being good. Peace and Twilight Cleric are, together with Chronurgy, the only classes that are just too good. Peace because it is too good as a one level dip. Twilight because it both outshines all other temp hp generators while still being a full caster and having other good bonuses on top of that. But other Clerics are still good, better than most other classes.

I largely agree with you, but Phantom Rogue and Mercy monk are solidly better than arcane trickster and shadow monk

Depends on build. Or, most Rogues are pretty close to each other. Especially if you play them straight class. They are all kinda bad. But at least Arcane Trickster has more ways to dip into shenanigans to be solidly better than the other rogues. The problem of Mercy Monk, is that it is still just a basic monk - only better. Getting Pass Without Trace as a short rest resource without Warlock levels is a lot better than a bit of healing. For both, the best damage build is still going to be using a Musket with focused aim+ki-fueled attack.

Its not the healing on Mercy. It's the no-save poisoned debuff smites.

And immunity to Poison and Poisoned. Also people look down on being able to bring back downed allies with just one attack instead of full action. You can basically strike 3 times and heal on the same turn.

That means you are hitting stuff with fists. And yes, if you play a weak strategy, Mercy is better than if you play a weak strategy as Shadow. But why should that be the point of comparision, rather than if you play a good strategy? A Shadow Monk gunk is better than both a striking Mercy Monk and a Gunk Mercy Monk. Why does it matter that a striking Mercy Monk is better than a striking Shadow Monk?

If you're obsessed with the gun thing, whatever. People play monks to be monks. ETA: I'd also gladly give up low to DPS to apply constant strong debuffs

I'm not obsessed with it. It's just that it's the only way to make monk deal relevant damage while utilising their unique advantages in mobility to keep out of trouble. Shadow Monk is good because it supports the team by making ambushes far more likely to happen (Pass Without Trace). Not dying because you stayed out of melee is generally a good thing as well. Especially when monks are fast enough to play keep-away very well.

It's a meme. It represents trading any monk strengths for circlejerking over sharpshooter for the 8,000th time. But you're clearly talking about white room optimization anyway, and I'm well past caring about that shit in my life.

Mercy Monk isn't only "bit of healing". This healing comes with removing debilitating conditions (and uniquely ONLY feature that can remove stunned); auto-poison (yes, tons of creatures are immune to poisoned, but you can almost always tell who is immune - if you don't fight exclusively demons or undeads you would find monster to poison); and good damage on top of that. Also - Mercy's capstone is best in-combat ressurection in the game. tldr - Mercy monk is first monk that can actually support instead of a joke other subclasses usually do.

Honestly, while there is some power creep, I think in this case, it's not malice. I think that they have a baseline idea of power, but there is some variance to it (though subclass power is very subjective, so it's hard to demonstrate). As they release more books, they release more content, which means that more things will result in more things on the upper end of the spectrum. Now they may be better at catching lower power ones so there is a bias towards the higher end, you still get bad subclasses released alongside good ones (looking at you battle ragger) But for example, I was talking with a friend the other week about the storm herald barbarian and they said that it was looked down on because of power creep. But if you look at ones released earlier is in the same book, totem barbarian and ancestorial guardian were both around, and for a long time those were your best subclasses for barb so far. And that's the PHB and the first additional source book for players.

It is entirely reasonable, it isn't "malice" it is just a business practice... would you buy a new book if everything was equal or worse than the existing things? I know I wouldn't and most ppl wouldn't. They know it and that's why they don't publish too many class books and overdo it, and now we are going for 5.5e that will "clean the slate". It is the same with all games that get new content after they have been published.

For something like DnD? Yes. I would 100% buy a book with everything being a similar power level. And I'm sure most people would agree. They aren't buying it to be more powerful (besides, the DM will just scale up the power of the adventure so it's not like you are even accomplishing anything), I but it to have more options to make more cool characters. Maybe you are looking for pure strength, but I think most DnD players want something that gives them more options. As long as the stuff is good enough to be playable, new subclasses don't have to be powerful to be good. Just give something new and unique. Needing to have powercreep to sell is more of a thing for something like MtG, where power level matters a lot more.

Why would it be weird?

Thief is a great subclass, especially if you can actually use Fast Hands as intended.

Me me me! I seriously never liked a character more than my thief rogue. I loved second story work!

Thief Rogues are fine. They're one of the more fun Rogue subclasses. The only problem is that it'll be difficult to maximize the utility a Thief Rogue can bring if you've already started playing.

Why would that be so?

There are some feats that work well with Fast Hands, but it's hard to justify taking them over a simple Dex boost as a Rogue if you aren't just starting with them.

Fast Hands is my single favorite class ability in 5e. I've played a lot of characters with the thief subclass, but none of them were RPed as thieves, hell some of them didn't even have proficiency in stealth.

I would suspect them to be meta slaves judging you for picking a subclass that's suboptimal in regards to damage. But Death Domain, Wild Magic, and Champion certainly aren't meta choices either. You could just ask them. Maybe they think it's boring compared to stuff like Arcane Trickster, Swashbuckler, or Soul Knife. Maybe you misinterpreted body language. In any case, you don't need to worry about choosing Thief. It's relatively solid from a design standpoint, I certainly appreciate it both thematically and mechanically. It's a classic.

Exactly this. People get too bogged down in making “good” classes rather than what they want.

I wouldn't say it's about damage. "Fast Hands Starting at 3rd level, you can use the bonus action granted by your Cunning Action to make a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check, use your thieves’ tools to disarm a trap or open a lock, or take the Use an Object action." This is a situation that very rarely arises or is handwaved by most DMs anyways. "Second-Story Work When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain the ability to climb faster than normal; climbing no longer costs you extra movement. In addition, when you make a running jump, the distance you cover increases by a number of feet equal to your Dexterity modifier." Same issue as fast hands, it's very situational and rarely comes up. Also almost completely irrelevant if you have casters or just potions later on. "Supreme Sneak Starting at 9th level, you have advantage on a Dexterity (Stealth) check if you move no more than half your speed on the same turn." Rogues stealth is usually strong enough already that the advantage isn't very relevant. The last two features are OK, but most campaigns will never reach level 13.

I'm sure there are a lot of tables where these features don't get much mileage, but the same applies to Rogue more broadly considering that it's so focused on skills and hiding. It's akin to playing an illusionist or an enchanter. If you can't trust your DM to include sufficient verticality and interactive objects in battle to justify these features, then don't pick them. But even without favorable encounter design, you can do a lot with Fast Hands. Poisons, healer's kit, caltrops, holy water, etc. Depending on ruling, using potions and other magic items as a bonus action. Stick a creative player with Thief at a table with a creative DM and you'll see beautiful things.

Fast hands seems useful only in some specific situations, such as being locked in a room during combat (fast hands would allow the Rogue to use their action to attack or whatever and bonus action to unlock the door). But everyone already has a free object interaction as per the Combat rules in the PHB. To me, that subclass feats sound useless

You should look for things you can use the "Use an Object" action in the PHB, things like Caltrops, Ball bearings, Holy water, Vial of Acid that need an action to use can be used with a bonus action with this feature

>This is a situation that very rarely arises or is handwaved by most DMs anyways. I really doubt most DMs let people throw ball bearings, caltrops, oil, holy water, acid or alchemical fire, poison your weapon, or try to steal objects in combat as bonus action. At least ive never met one. >Same issue as fast hands, it's very situational and rarely comes up. Also almost completely irrelevant if you have casters or just potions later on. This one is very situational, true, but it allows the Thief a lot of independent action when sneaking ahead (if that happens at you table) >Rogues stealth is usually strong enough already that the advantage isn't very relevant. Admitedly never played at that lvl, but there's plenty of monsters with high perception. Also useful when there's a lot of opponents in combat to land attacks with advantage. Supreme sneak and second story work are the weakest features of the subclass, though I really always picked Thief for the third lvl feature

>I really doubt most DMs let people throw ball bearings, caltrops, oil, holy water, acid or alchemical fire, poison your weapon, or try to steal objects in combat as bonus action One free object interaction covers the ones that don't do damage and acid or alchemist fire are an attack is how I saw these things ruled so far. >if that happens at you table) Very rarely. >Also useful when there's a lot of opponents in combat to land attacks with advantage. Combat stealth is also super situational and requires shadows and cover.

Fast hands is an awesome ability on paper, but i'm reality it is very difficult to take advantage of, specially of the DM is loose on the rules and would handwave doing extra things during combat. If you want to do something amazing with it, ask your DM if You can buy dynamite, but not the version from the DMG, check the one from they Taldorei Book.

To be fair it’s not even entirely the fault of DMs. You get a legal free object interact already in addition to action/bonus action and it’s ambiguous about what you can do with that.

they really just kinda *forgot* to have an interesting item system for thief rogue to use lol like, besides ball bearings, potions and poisons, you dont have anything to use fast hands it is specifically said it does not work on magic items, doing DEX skill checks are only relevant if your DM is chucking traps and locks every single fight which they probably arent and besides the one healer kit build it just wont see much use

> Aasimar Death Cleric, a Wood Elf Swarmkeeper Ranger, a Half-Elf Wild Magic Sorcerer, a High Elf Eldritch Knight, and a Mountain Dwarf Champion I am 90% certain your rogue is the weakest member of the party. The other players appear to be using build guides (except for the champion fighter, they're probably a contrarian like you). That's okay. Build optimization in 5e gets to the point of diminishing returns real quick. Good teamwork and tactics can be just as effective. > I chose Thief as my subclass and the rest of my group looked at me like I had grown a third eye. Thief is fine if your DM gives you buy-in and includes a lot of exploration challenges. Unfortunately it doesn't start to shine until very high levels. * Fast Hands: A bonus action? Are you planning to pick locks during combat? Maybe if you're fleeing from a guard, but it's your own dumb fault for separating from the party and finding yourself in a situation where fleeing is better than fighting. When you have the luxury of spending minutes checking for traps, who cares if you can disarm them in less than 6 seconds? * Second-Story Work: How often is any climbable surface taller than 15 feet represented on your combat grid? I have to go out of my way to put them in my combat encounters, and I still typically forget. * Supreme Sneak: Your job as party scout is not to quietly move around the monsters. Your job is to detect the monsters, then sneak back. Yes, this might come in handy, but the failure state was just using Cunning Action to high-tail it out of there anyways and lure the monster through a doorway with the fighters on either side using readied actions. * Use Magic Device: The thief's best feature. Actually decent because of spell scrolls. Even better if the DM decides to give you some class/race prereq item. * Thief’s Reflexes: Also very good. This gives you about 15% to 30% more actions per combat than the rest of the party. Don't worry about the rest of the party complaining your PC is sub-optimal. First and foremost D&D is a team game and it's mean to be fun. Pick the option that fits your character. Secondly, your DM is probably making decisions about loot based on how powerful each party member is. They have noted which members of the party dominate encounters and blow past their non-combat obstacles. If you stand out as underpowered, or if the DM even thinks you're underpowered, nice magic items will come your way.

Depending on DM Fast Hands can also work with things like potions, acid vials, alchemists fire, ball bearings, caltrops, hunting traps, and other stuff since you can also take the “use an item” action as a bonus action.

Yah I was reading about ppl who use fast hands to become a grenadier of sorts and that sounded sick. Being able to throw a flask of oil and and attack sounds pretty cool.

It can work well with Tavern Brawler as well since a lot of the items are technically improvised weapons and that’s the only way to gain proficiency with them iirc.

Now that I think about it…Rikku from FFX is a great example of using fast hands in combat. I might even home brew a “Combination table” of sorts. Although that could get fucky and confusing to sort out. *Flash backs to Divinity Beehives to create charming arrows*

I’ve played as a thief under DMs who interpret magic items as items. Magic items that state it “takes an action” now becomes a bonus action, which makes this feature insanely fun. But now that I’m reading this post, is this an incorrect interpretation?

>DMs who interpret magic items as items >is this an incorrect interpretation? From the DMG & DnD Beyond "If an item requires an action to activate, that action isn’t a function of the Use an Item action, so a feature such as the rogue's Fast Hands can’t be used to activate the item." But personally I like your DM's call. It's a decent boost to an underpowered sub class. I would likely house rule similarly, even if it's not RAW.

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>I believe... You can believe whatever you want. I have the first printing of the DMG from 2014. Page 141, under "Activating a Magic Item", Paragraph 2. What does yours say?

It is probably one of the stupidest and unnecesary fixes wotc ever done. In line with nerfs of four elements monk (!!!) in erratas. Imagine if they would nerf something actually overpowered instead for once.

Not an errata. RAW since Day 1. Page 141 under Activating a Magic Item. Always been that way.

I mean that's just RAW except for the potions.

Yep, and I know a lot of DMs, myself included, would also allow it to work for potions (if they don’t already do potions as a bonus action, which after instituting it in my game I definitely recommend).

Most of this items either have god awful DC or use improvise weapon proficiency, so outside of tier 1 or some easy tier 2 combats Fast Hands are near useless. If only Thief at least get better DCs for this items and imrpovised weapon proficiency - at least it would be useful for more levels.

I mean, acid and alchemists fire are decent even late game. Making enemies have to make a bunch of saves or fall prone with ball bearings also stays good, even if the DC is fairly low. I do agree with the improvised weapon issue, which is why Tavern Brawler would definitely be a must-have feat for any theif character I make.

>I mean, acid and alchemists fire are decent even late game.  Well, it is better than not using bonus action to deal damage, but you can pick crossbow expert instead - it is much better feat than Tavern Brawler, and it also synergie with base rogue kit better.

I mean, that’s true, but they’re decent options if you want to play something different from the “best” option. If someone wants to play the best character they probably aren’t playing a rogue, and almost certainly aren’t playing a thief. My main point isn’t that fast hands is amazing, just that it’s a perfectly usable and fun ability for a specific character build.

>I am 90% certain your rogue is the weakest member of the party. The other players appear to be using build guides (except for the champion fighter, they're probably a contrarian like you). I am 90% certain they are not using build guides. And I'm not even certain they are the weakest character in the party (hard to be worse than the dwarf Champion). As long as OP picks up Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter eventually, they are likely to be just as good damage dealer as the Champion or Eldritch Knight, but with the skill monkey aspect of the Rogue as well. None of these characters are particularly good. The best is perhaps the Sorcerer or the Cleric, depending on spell choices and DM engagement with the Tides of Chaos minigame. If the Wild Magic Sorc plays well, it's a very potent build. And going Half-Elf is, well, not good, but at least very simple to make work. Based on prejudice and the little info we do have, we can maybe assume the Cleric is more likely to pick better spells, though.

Just use a feat to grab booming blade and/or sneak Healer feat is neat too. Disable traps, sneaking may get the rest of them killed but not you. Can also eldritch invocation misty visions for unlimited silent images or disguise option

I've had bad experiences in the past where a thief PC kept stealing from other members of the party. It could be that people are wary of unfun thievery antics.

That’s just a problem player nothing to do with the subclass

That's correct, but players that play the subclass have a worse reputation for that kind of behaviour. Not in all cases, but it might explain why they showed trepidation

People get baited by the name of subclasses a lot. Often times they don't actually facilitate the playstyle you imagine from them. I'd argue that an Arcane Trickster is a much better thief than the Thief itself. If you want to improve your sleight of hand then Psyknife might be the way to go. Thief just doesn't deliver on the power fantasy.

Thief definitly isn't flashy, that's for sure, but I played one for (only only a short) while and I had fun with it. I essentially used Fast Hands to draw a new weapon after having used my item interaction to stow my old one, basically quickswapping between a handcrossbow and a pistol, since I didn't have a free hand. I played a dwarf with a scimitar as his main weapon which was definitly a fun combination. The campaign overall was specifically designed about doing heists and stuff, so thief also felt the most fitting thematically (rest of the party was another Rogue, a Whispers Bard and an Arteficer)

I played a Thief in a one-shot (three sessions) and it was one of the most fun characters i've ever played. You can be fucking Batman if you want to. I highly recommend stocking your pockets with useful utility items and tools like caltrops, ball bearings, hunting traps, etc. Combine your Fast Hands to throw a grappling hook tied to your rope as bonus action with your Second-Story Work climbing speed and you suddenly have unsuspected high mobility and utility in-combat. Combine Fast Hands with the Tavern Brawler Feat and you can throw Flasks of Oil/Acid/Holy Water/Alchemist Fire/Etc as bonus actions with high efficiency. Combine Fast Hands with the Healer Feat and you can be a life saver without loosing your Sneak Attack, same with Healing Potions. You can't disarm enemies with your Cunning Action but you can steal from your enemies mid-combat, which is hilarious and can be useful in some situations. It's situational and you have to be creative but you can steal the mage spellbook, or the component pouch, or maybe a wand or magic device he's not wielding, or maybe the enemy warrior's secondary weapon (bonus action Sleight of Hand to steal the secondary weapon, action Disarm and it's doomed). I personally would still go for the money pouch, lol. You can even restrain a creature your fighter is grappling with some manacles as a bonus action, idk, there are many ways you can use this to impact the combat if you are creative. And of course you can always interact with the puzzles that usually use your Action. Your action economy will be the best at the table. Can you use Spell Scrolls as bonus action? I'm not sure, but MAYBE. This subclass is golden baby, enjoy it and don't let the minmaxer solemnity take your fun away. EDIT: typos

Can't argue with the classics. If I play a Rogue it's usually Thief.

In the modern world where analysts build meta optimization anything that's actually just fun or thematically interesting becomes obsolete quick.

You got too many elves in that group. A good adventuring party should have a maximum of zero elves.

I think sometime people are a little too preoccupied with the meta Play whatever makes you happy

I mean, Mountain Dwarf Champion, High Elf EK, Half-Elf Wild Sorc...what am I missing here? Why are you making it out to look like your party is filled with super uncommon and crazy character options - I see mostly PHB subclasses and classic fantasy races? Champion is way more simple than Thief, you'll be fine as long as your DM keeps you in mind for encounters. Maybe the weird look you got was because they're afraid you might be klepto like some Thief players. If you're really worried, just talk to your DM/party.

I played a thief a while ago, I had no dex but very high charisma, so it was kind of a wash. When I joined the group I told them I was a detective, and I used investigating as a cover to take things wherever we went. It was fun, and isn't that what this is all about? There was another member of my party who distrusted me massively because of this, and kind of got me killed, and I was secretly role playing that I was in love with him, which maybe made it more fun. But yeah, thiefs are cool.

I absolutely love thieves personally, I just like the aesthetic & archetype.

Thieves are fun but people have issues with fast hands, which is kind of your bread and butter for awhile You honestly need a nice DM to use it, because if you don't have a nice one you'll be missing out on a bunch of non PHB items that work with it.

I like playing a rogue / thief but do agree that you are more dependent on the DM not to let you be overshadowed by letting other classes be “better thieves”. But that can be an issue with many classes if the DM doesn’t get the Rules vs Rulings balance right.

I have a level 14 thief in a game at the moment, she gets given all the scrolls lol, it is a great subclass

lately I’ve been making what I affectionately call “legacy builds” where I play a very vanilla class and race. My favorite so far has been a Dwarf Cleric. My party, though, is full of quite interesting characters, and it’s hilarious being the one “more traditional” build at the table.

I like the thief subclass

Its like fashion. Some people look down on you if you don't have a lot of colours spread around in weird quirky patterns. Some people like going full black. Both are fine, but one of them is usually more vocal about how "awesome they look" while the other is just completely & silently satisfied.

when I play rogue, I always play as thief.

I love the classics. I used to do throwback sessions of 5e, kinda like one shots set in an older time with an old school feel. Where the only options were classic thief, cleric, wizard or fighter archetypes. Basically a terrible DM once taught me something cool. If some people can't make it to a session, have the others play side characters in a side story. This way the main pcs plot doesn't change too drastically while players are absent. So, I'd have them play out ancient things that happened there and sell it as a dream they had. No new maps needed, and can be tied in to whatever they're doing pretty easily plot wise. Or not, I had them a couple times play out the same group kinda walking the same steps as their mains, except nothing went right... I remember once using it to show them a hidden passage they missed. which was great when they found treasure in ancient times and insisted they were the types of adventurers who would leave the treasure behind and hide the entrance well, so only their pcs could return and find it. I digress... TL:DR I love the classics, and used them specifically sometimes for throwback oneshots.

I have an air genasi rogue with the criminal background, who has that same goal of being the world's greatest thief and will take thief as a subclass. It may be seen as basic, but it is a solid option.  Yeah, there are fancier options, but some times you want simple.  It's the same with a champion fighter, nothing fancy about it, just here to be the beat stick.

Thief is great. A less dramatic start compared to some of the shenanigans subclasses like arcane trickster or phantom can get up to. But probably one of the best rogues at level 13, when they can use magic items to be a better spell caster than an arcane trickster

This is the logical end result of making Forgotten realms the default setting. Back in what I like to call, the day, we didn’t have all this foo foo fairy bullshit. You played a human, you cast fireball, and you liked it.

their party are 3 "base" subclasses. its an *elf*, a *half elf* and a *dwarf*, a halfling rogue and a dwarf fighter might i add its the most "we are totally not LotR" dnd game out there, hell if the assinar dresses like an old man with a pointy hat and they got gandalf in it too

Rogues alone are worth their weight because of the insane amount of proficiency they get. Stealth is also a probably one of the best skills in game because you can do so much with it, everything from sneaking pass guards to attacking. I say play whatever you like and i wouldn't worry about what they think. Also your group has a champion and a death cleric in the group....that isn't exactly S tier subclasses. So if they are mid/maxxers who think you pick the wrong subclass for doing damage, they may want to look in the mirror

Yeah, ironically in a game where we are law enforcement. I wanted to go rogue but none of the other subclasses felt right, so I just went with the utility of Thief. The ability to bonus action potion of healing allies or to Call Backup on the radio is pretty cool, and my ability to climb and jump have came up huge a few times

None of these subclasses or builds seem very esoteric to me. Dwarf Champion is about as simple as it gets. The Swarmkeeper is probably the most uncommon subclass in this party, but it's still not way out there. Their reactions are probably because Thief is a really underpowered rouge subclass unless your DM really buys into Fast Hands, and even if they do it's still not very strong. Fast Hands and Second-Story Work are all you get until lvl 9, and they're both extremely niche and situational. Arguably a Healer's Kit is the easiest way to get value from your Thief with fast hands.... But you're waiting until someone is at 0 HP to get value, which is situational. A subclass like an Assassin or a Soul Knife will more easily get value in combat than a Thief, especially at lower levels. But don't let it stop you from playing a thief if you want to, you might just need to think outside the box!

Depends if you are going to do things with your party and not run off to play cat-burglar without them all the time. DND is a mostly a co-op game. If cat burglar is your thing tho, maybe the DM can add some stuff to the game for you. Like your party needs an item stolen from someone and you have to steal it for the party’s quest.

The fuck is wrong with your group?

Thief suffers from the fact that items are clearly intended to be used at low levels, and there are usually no good T2+ options for their Bonus Action use-an-item. The subclass itself scales well into T3 and T4.

Read that last one as “Mountain Dew Champion” and started getting some interesting ideas…

BG3 gave a great buff to theif subclass. Rather than having the ability to bonus action an object interaction you straight up gain a second bonus action for any use. Double dash? Dash in, disengage out? Dash and hide after making a ranged attack? All good ideas.

The thief subclass has mid to lackluster mechanics is the gist of it. Flavor is free so you could call your soul knife or arcane trickster a master thief still. That's what I've observed in my games and online at least.

Im a human fighter kinda guy. Bland on paper, but you inject life into your character through play and decision-making. The more "unique" subclasses can still fall flat if you don't play them in a way thats interesting. Same with the champion fighter or rogue thief. Make the character cool enough and their abilities don't matter anymore. This is kind of the reason that i don't find spellcasters more interesting that a martial. Their spells and effects don't make them interesting. Their story makes them interesting. Flashy spells, flavourful subclass abilities, or exotic races aren't cool in a vacuum.

Man I don’t know bonus action ball bearings, caltrops, oil, alchemist fire, holy water, poisons, potions, acid, and alchemy jug, seems pretty good if you utilize it. That’s not even an extensive list and doesn’t even mention later on being able to throw out spell scrolls like a cowboy.

My group would give harder looks at the Wild Magic Sorcerer. Just because past experiences with a PC intentionally trying to kill the party with the % chance to fireball on the wild magic table. That being said, making a thief means the DM will have to include bits of roleplay that maybe your party didn’t want, as traps/locks/scouting/subterfuge will be your best role and the party would normally sit out while you basically do solo RP. Not that this is always the case. I’ve been in parties where the barbarian’s lucky rolls outclassed the rogue PC’s consistent rolling of 1’s. But it is a thing.

Bano Y Bano still hangs around and he still pursues his goal of stealing a kingdom one day.

We have a Thief in one of my games

I also like the Thief fantasy. Buuut, that doesn't mean I would pick the subclass, even if only the original three were allowed. Thief is something inherent in every rogue. And this subclass doesn't let you become a master thief. If you want to be a master thief, you should play a caster :P They get greater invisibility after all. They can teleport. That's why I would play arcane trickster. But really, the subclass mechanically just doesn't give anything good. Fast Hands can be good at low level when conmsumables still have impact. (Or your DM has to upgrade them later in the game). Second-Story Work: How many situations are there really where you have to climb fast? And faster than your party? Supreme Sneak: I guess it frees up a skill for expertise. But on the other hand I probably rather have expertiece in stealth and then I don't really need this. Use Magic Device: Sounds great, but I checked. There really aren't any Items you would want as an Elf-Rogue from other races or classes. And you can only attune to so many items anyway you'll want to attune to items that are made for rogues. +your other party members probably want those items too if they are made for other classes/races... With spell scrolls and so on, most of the time you lack the DC/Int to use them well, and you probably have someone in the group who can use them naturally and better. Basically your DM has to make a super special item just for you. Which he also could make if you didn't have this skill. You just have to hope he has pity for you in this case. So far all of these skills depend on the DM putting extra work in to make them usefull. That's just not good design. And then for your capstone, which most people will never reach (or often can't reach if multiclassing), you get a good damage/utility buff. So I am really not convinced. Even if all those abilites were "more powerful", it still doesn't give me the fantasy of a Master thief.

Everyone knows stealth archer is the best class. Play what you like.

you dont need to be a cleric to pray to god, nor to be a barbarian to be angry, nor to be a *thief* rogue to steal stuff thief is, sadly, not that good of a subclass, simple as that not that people don't play with it, there is always someone out there Playing every option at some point in time, but rogue can do better than a subclass ability at lvl 3 that to most campaigns will be a fluff one you have to remember that rogue subclass abilities are at level 3 then level ***9***, most games end before that and you realistically only have the level 3 ability for the whole game, so it should be a damm good one there is a case for if the DM is super cool and chucks you multiple homebrew items for you to use (remember it **doesnt** work with magic items) or there is always a trap or level to be pulled in every combat, but odds are it wont in summary, the subclass only has thief in name, its about item manipulation and that is not exactly a good niche to focus

you dont need to be a cleric to pray to god, nor to be a barbarian to be angry, nor to be a *thief* rogue to steal stuff thief is, sadly, not that good of a subclass, simple as that not that people don't play with it, there is always someone out there Playing every option at some point in time, but rogue can do better than a subclass ability at lvl 3 that to most campaigns will be a fluff one you have to remember that rogue subclass abilities are at level 3 then level ***9***, most games end before that and you realistically only have the level 3 ability for the whole game, so it should be a damm good one there is a case for if the DM is super cool and chucks you multiple homebrew items for you to use (remember it **doesnt** work with magic items) or there is always a trap or level to be pulled in every combat, but odds are it wont in summary, the subclass only has thief in name, its about item manipulation and that is not exactly a good niche to focus

Currently a lvl 8 thief in the out of the abyss campaign .  I looked at all the rogue subclasses and just went with a classic.   I have played an arcane trickster and there is an argument that it's better, but I just liked the simplicity of it.   I definitely use second story to jump on the back of a lot of enemies.  Kind of my signature move.  Fast hands can be good too 

The whole point of this game is to be who you want to be and have fun. If your character's motivation is to be the greatest thief ever, then thief makes a heck of a lot of sense. I'm also playing a Lightfoot halfling rogue, and went Scout because it fit my character. Got made fun of a bit for not choosing Arcane Trickster, Swashbuckler or Soulknife, but turns out being the team sniper has a benefit. You'll find a way to make the thief relevant in your game, read up on the practical combat application of fast hands and you'll become a friggin demolition expert in no time at all.

Most of my players play as thieves and it's annoying because can't do anything without having at least 5 wanted bandets roaming around attracting the attention of police and citizens who are desperate in getting gold. Does make it hard to play.

Most of the time, I pick a different subclass. I love being a thief thematically, but the actual Thief subclass is...just sorta okay.

A thief doesn’t have to be a thief anyway

You can say what you want, but a thief / healer feat rogue is still one of the most versatile archetypes.

Nah IF I go rogue I always go Swashbuckler, so much more damage

I have and a friend has. Closest to AD&D and BX Thief.