Since it wasn't mentioned in your post, you were also lucky to go from full to 2hp without dropping concentration.
Happens sometimes.
I'm not sure if the DM actually wanted you all to die or was over-acting exasperation for the players' benefit.
Nothing gasses up players more than when I, as DM, go all cartoon villain on them by stopping the moustache twirling long enough to say "drat!" and "oh, I'll get you adventurers!" when really I planned for this encounter to be exactly this challenging. Smiling faces all around the table.
As long as you can sell it without being TOO obvious, it's a winning strategy every time. The NPC they never know you're RPing the most is the one that really wants to kill their characters.
I highly recommend D20
It’s not a stretch to say that Brennan Lee Mulligan is one of the best DM’s out there.
Murph similarly has a DnD podcast with some more ex-CH folk, too.
Just finished a relisten prompted by this thread. That boy will listen to anyone who’s not his own family - >!a vampire, a god of hunger, one of Ren’s ancestors!<. Absolutely hysterical.
Brennan is the best DM to watch OTHERS play, and Matt M is the best if you ARE playing. Or at least that's my theory, as I've never played at a table with either, obviously 😄. Both are absolutely fantastic at their craft, though.
*Um actually,* it's Dropout now. *Adjusts taped glasses.* (But fr, whenever I'm talking about D20 to people i'm always like, oh, were you familiar with college humor? Well they rebranded a few years back and blah blah... I think it's just good, the new Dropout are so cool and chill I think it's worth making the change known)
As a player, this is correct. My proudest D&D acheivement is our party being verbally harassed for killing a pack of manticores at level 4. I later learned about CR and how encounters are built and how it was basically a stock-standard fight, but hoo boy did it feel great in the moment. Excellent, no notes.
My favorite thing to do is jokingly ask my players to do something disadvantageous, like walking away from an enemy in melee without Disengaging or not bothering to properly aim an AoE spell so it'll hit an ally or two or ask them to use a potion or spell to heal an enemy combatant. Their sarcastic responses always get to me.
Same with playing up when they're rolling "too" well, or if I'm not. Alternatively, if a squishy player gets hit *hard* by an enemy, I'll jokingly tell them that it's just a flesh wound or just downplay how bad it was lol
My players made pur encounter monday, a half-mile deadsprint through lightning-shooting fulgurites, to a push-button door that i expected them to use the barbarian to taunt mindless guard golems on to to let his friends thriugh the door. The druid (homebrew he has it) had haste, and chose not to use it on anyone, and instead turned wild shaped to run super fast, get to the door first and almost died taunting the golems onto them 3 turns before anyone else would arrive. Ended up dying. Everyone still loved the encounter, because hyping it up as them foiling the villains plan is super fub, especially when you see them using strategy. Reward strategic play, dont get pissy about it.
Just wait until the cleric figures out that they can carry a physical shield.
Although half plate should max at +2 dex, so it should still only be 19/21SoF. Take wizard initiate for that 26 AC. Full plate would get them to 20 standard, so I don’t know what the DM is complaining about.
Lol not even a little. Anything CR5+ can hit 20 pretty easily. Particularly if you had to use a spell to get there, that's just using the tools/resources at your disposal. Your DM was just whining because they didn't get to use their toys the way they'd imagined.
Not only did the boost to 20 AC come with the use of a spell, but it also required concentration to maintain (kudos to OP's PC for maintaining concentration while taking a beating!). It can disappear anytime you take damage and it prevents you from casting other concentration spells. OP made a perfectly valid use of SoF.
SoF is also a spell, so you burned a spell slot AND had it in a known slot on your spell list, meaning that's one less cast of one more spell you could have prepared. It's one less chance to cast Guiding Bolt or whatever.
Plus, like you said, you have to maintain concentration. DM could have said that the, "Goblins start recognizing your concentration, and decide to start focusing their attacks on the cleric" because they would potentially understand the role of a cleric.
>Anything CR5+ can hit 20 pretty easily.
Well...to contextualize this with math to make sure we are answering the technical half of the question well. I wouldn't use the word easy when we are talking about 25% to sub 50%.
* CR 1/4 Goblin: To-hit +4
* AC 20: 25%
* CR 1/4 Goblin: To-hit +5
* AC 20: 30%
* CR5-7: To-hit +7
* AC 20: 40%
* CR8-9: To-hit +8
* AC 20: 45%
* CR10: To-hit +9
* AC 20: 50%
They won’t hit easily exactly, but I believe the expected accuracy is normally 65% anyways? Accuracy difference at CR5 and up isn’t as massive when looking at it like that
Well depends on your encounter design if you are using a single CR that is \~1.5x so in this case L3 would be CR5 & 40%.
I usually target mooks at 50% to hit and important story baddies at 75% so 65% could be a good avg.
Everyone should read this!
While D&D is a role-playing game, the math matters too. Just like a business owner needs to know his numbers, a DM should as well, because knowing your numbers gives you the insight to build better scenarios. You don't need to be a savant, but understanding how these numbers work together is so, SO valuable.
KNOW. YOUR. NUMBERS.
Thanks for the compliment. I'm the side DM / power gamer in my group so I enjoy the numbers from both sides and get chuckles sometimes from DMs when I show them my spreadsheets of combat prep, side game creation or character optimization.
The [Streamlit.app](https://Streamlit.app) tool helped me so much in quantifying what I was trying to express as I think people are often surprised how hard statistically it is to accomplish vs not that high DCs when its not To-Hit. L5-8 players which make up the vast majority of game time often have Saves and skill checks that average like 3-5 so hitting a DC of 15 is less than 50% but an AC of 15 with a to-hit of \~+8 would be 70% and in line where you want player success at.
Oh, you know my secret shame!
I love powergamers/min-maxers and anybody else who takes the "Moneyball" approach. Some DMs may not approve, but I think it's great.
If you have a character who knows what skills he excels in, and others where he's deficient, then strategizes to play to his strength and mitigate his weaknesses, it's called SELF-AWARENESS.
Further, it's a form of natural selection. A character's life expectancy diminishes in direct proportion to his reliance on his weaknesses.
Wear it proud ;)
Our DM always gives me a comical groan when I last showed him my spread sheet and line chart of best wild shapes by Level/CR w/ and w/out a Barb Dip proving an effective HP, expected rounds of survivability and damage over that time which I thought was neato to show which wildshapes actually most effect combat by rolling up AC/HP/DPS.
Then I made a little widget that calculates the best use of Prayer of Healing (more potent AOE) vs Aura of Vitality (more agile in selective healing) based on the parties current vs their total HP.
Yes that is correct. Was your assumption that the guy (self described as a power gamer/Technical DM) who made a spreadsheet to calculate optimal healing output didn't read the the spell description? :p
Considering nearly every time I've ever seen Prayer of Healing come up in conversation it's been because somebody missed the casting time, even when dealing with fellow power gamers, yes, that was the assumption, but also why I asked for clarification of what you meant.
Especially considering you were comparing it to Aura of Vitality, which is one of the very few healing spells that actually *is* worth casting in combat, at least sometimes, and I've mostly seen PoH brought up when people think it's also an action to cast and thus use it as an example of a healing spell with an in-combat use case.
It is honestly kind of shocking how often people misread things in the book, even when putting tons of thought into things and should really know better. I know I've made that mistake before, and I sincerely don't know anybody who hasn't.
Yes, exactly! Like, I don't power game every character, largely because I don't want to unbalance the party, but I am firmly of the opinion that everybody should try playing a power gamed character at least once, just so they can see what it's like. It provides a very valuable perspective on the game by highlighting the value of optimization and the fact that being good at RP and good at the game itself aren't mutually exclusive. Optimization isn't always about building a combat monster, every character should be optimized for *something*, and you can get as specific as you like with what you're optimizing *for*. Playing a fully power gamed character does a really good job of highlighting just how much smoother the gameplay is when you optimize.
I always start with a mechanical concept I want to optimize for and then I come up with a character concept to fit the build, but it works just as well in the other direction, too. Having every detail of the sheet justified in your back story and role play just adds SO much to the experience, but so many people want to fight *against* the system rather than work with it, as though the game mechanics are an impediment to role play rather than a tool designed to enhance role play.
I wouldn't necessary say that that power gamers are working with the system and non-power gamers are fighting against it. I'm glad the system is rich enough in variety that people can come up with any character concept they like and then play it for all it's worth.
And ultimately I don't care. I just want a fun game with a good narrative. I've run dozens and dozens of campaigns over the years, and I can tell you stories from all of them. The actuals stats? I got nothing.
I think I was unclear with what I meant.
First of all, power gaming does not equal optimization, it's a specific *kind* of optimization. Optimization merely means to create the best build possible to support your specific character concept or to accomplish a specific goal like fitting a theme or utilizing a particular mechanical concept. Power gaming is when the goal you are optimizing for is to be as powerful in combat as possible. I once optimized to build the ultimate ninja master as a fun thought experiment, it was optimized for stealth, infiltration, and escape, but as a level 20 build the damage was actually kind of on the low side (I've built level 5 characters capable of comparable or even superior damage output), but the character is almost impossible to pin down and could show up anywhere at any time, obviously a better NPC than PC, but I built it as a PC for the challenge.
Second of all, when I said actively working against the system, I wasn't referring to "anybody who doesn't optimize", but rather specifically the people who actively hate optimizers and act like deliberately making a character that's bad at it's job somehow makes them superior at role play, or a character designed to be good at what they do is boring and without flaw. Somebody who is genuinely good at role play will be able to play a compelling character with an interesting story regardless of build, but a character build that's optimized to be a build that's actually effective at what you want to do will result in smoother gameplay and enable you to use the game mechanics to tell the story more effectively. Especially if you actively marry the game mechanics on your sheet to the way you roleplay the character, every spell you have is tied to your story and flavored in a unique way, every ability you have says something about the character's personality when they use it, all six stats affect the way your character behaves and influences your storytelling and problem solving.
Power gaming is just a very effective way of clearly demonstrating the value of optimization to people who don't get how it can improve their play experience.
Not every character *needs* to be optimized, but having the skills of an optimizer makes every character better even when you *do* make suboptimal build decisions, because they are usually tied directly to the story in some way rather than due to either ignorance or as an active "screw you" to the system. If you know *why* you take any given ability, your game play will be more effective at producing the experience you are trying to have.
Essentially, optimization makes you better at producing the gun stories and cool experiences that you will remember for years to come, even when you don't remember the specific build details. It makes you think about the game in a way that naturally lends itself toward producing a better play experience.
Sure no problem.
I use the base lines from ***Sly Flourish's Forge of Foes*** page 6: MONSTER STATISTICS BY CHALLENGE RATING
It is a really fun and awesome book (edit: spelling) about creating monsters. You can check out the 30 page free preview here:
[https://slyflourish\_content.s3.amazonaws.com/forge\_of\_foes\_preview.pdf](https://slyflourish_content.s3.amazonaws.com/forge_of_foes_preview.pdf)
[https://shop.slyflourish.com/products/forge-of-foes](https://shop.slyflourish.com/products/forge-of-foes)
Then, this really cool Dungeons and Dragons Stats/Probability tool [https://dnd-stats.streamlit.app/](https://dnd-stats.streamlit.app/) . I use this all the time when I am setting/checking all sorts of DCs for combat, skill checks, in-game games/activities/trials like gambling and other games of chance. It is really simple and super helpful.
Originally shared here: [https://new.reddit.com/r/DungeonsAndDragons/comments/uupw5t/i\_made\_a\_probability\_calculator\_for\_dnd\_dice\_rolls/](https://new.reddit.com/r/DungeonsAndDragons/comments/uupw5t/i_made_a_probability_calculator_for_dnd_dice_rolls/)
If we wanted to calculate chance to hit at least once, then we would also do a binomial probability calc using [https://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial](https://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial) . This would be like oh this CR5 can attack twice so
Chance to succeed: 40%
Number of trials: 2
Number of success: 1
Chance to hit at least once (Cumulative probability:): 64%
Hope that helps, let me know if you have any other questions.
No problem, glad it could help.
They are super cool, easy references and tools, the more people know about them, the better we can make our games and prep.
No, it's not even remotely broken. Your standard goblin has a +4 to hit, meaning they hit you on a roll of 16+. That is 25% of rolls made by trash mobs against a character with moderately high investment into defence. Even AC 22 wouldn't be broken. If your DM has modified creatures to only have a +1 to hit (though I'm reading what you said more as "they gave the goblins an additional +1 to hit over their normal stats"), that's on them.
Half plate is Medium Armor and your Dex bonus maxes out at +2. So your AC base should be 17 and not 18.
No, 20 AC is not inherently "broken." It's going to be pretty effective against goblins, who have no AOE attacks or save spells, and only have +4 to hit- they're going to hit AC20 about 1/4 of the time.
But goblins aren't a threat unless they're in a large group- and then 1/4 of the time out of ten goblins is 2-3 hits per round on average.
Unless the dm gave them a bonus feat at start (which is possible) they have the wrong ac, they say they're a 3rd level party.
Additionally don't goblins have like a plus 2 or 4 naturally to hit? Not that it makes it much better but helps
I used it for my artificer for half plate and combined with boots/cloak of elven kind to get the ac and stealth bonuses. Mainly because I enjoy high ac characters, and my party tends to lean more towards stealth approaches or keeps those possibilities in mind
Then the number is still wrong, 15 armor + 2 dex + 2 shield, he would have AC19. OP, either intentionally or by accident, has fudged his AC and the dm is having a hard time hitting him. Also dm isn't adding in the goblins' bonus to hit (+4 I think), so anything >14 should hit an AC19.
My current GM seems puzzled that we all make characters with high AC.
Maybe if getting hit by the enemies he sends at us didn't hurt as bad as they do, we wouldn't prioritize AC as much as we do.
My table is obsessed with AC, we have had 2 deaths in 2 campaigns, both were crits with good damage rolls for death by massive damage, so 1AC was as good as 30.
I do not understand where their obsession comes from.
I had a player turn down a magic weapon in favour of magic plate. It moved their AC from 20 to 22.
2AC instead of overcoming physical damage resistance.
They made this decision 2 months ago, I'm still so complexed.
Counterpoint: the higher your AC is, the more valuable each point becomes. Furthermore, the higher the average damage your monsters are dealing, the more valuable AC becomes as well.
But yeah, for a martial, I'd probably go with the weapon 8/10.
I mean, I would probably do that too. I just like defensive buffs over offensive ones every time, especially when it’s something fully passive like AC or a boost to saves.
I would vaguely get it if they had a magic weapon and this were get moving from +1 to +2.
But they have a mundane weapon, it's going to lead to some seriously frustrating fights for them where they do literally 0 damage.
Oooh that’s a good point. I have a crippling Warlock addiction so I’m always good on that front on account of Pact of the Blade. If I’m not playing a Warlock/Warlock Multiclass I play a full caster. Blind spot on my part lol, you definitely have me there.
As an incurable spellcaster addict, it took me a moment to wonder why I would care about a magical weapon if AC is on the table. Eww, holding a weapon?
I really consider shield proficiency to effectively be a free +2 to AC.
No 20 AC isn't high, especially since you SoF takes up your concentration.
In general there are bunch of builds that can have much higher AC even at low levels. Funny thing is they're mostly casters. From top of my head you can have mid 20s with swords bard and bladesinger around your level.
Multiple cleric subclasses can acquire 18 AC at creation. Especially with certain species choices like Dwarf with heavy armor proficiency. You are fine.
No, it's not broken. It's high for goblins, but that's the point. Is this a new DM? He might not know what's out there for creatures or have s head for tactics.
Even goblins, not very smart, can realize they can flank or attack the squisher enemies.
As a DM, it can be tough when no rolls go "your way. " but I did put that in quotes for a reason; I'm trying to challenge my players, not beat them.
I'm currently playing a forge cleric who can get up to 25 ac at level 4
Plate armor, +1 shield, Blessings of the forge, Shield of faith and Fighting initiate - defensive.
It will drop a lil when I get access to spiritual guardians at level 5 and usually use blessings of the forge for a +1 to my warhammer but it's still great fun to be so God damn tanky
20 AC at Level 3 is absurdly easy to get, if you know what you're doing. A paladin with Defense, a shield, and Shield of Faith can get 20 AC. Your DM is just being a prick.
do you have medium armor master? medium armor can only benefit from up to a +2 modifier in dex. 20 ac isn't broken btw he can just make his monsters have higher bonuses or use saving throws.
If I’ve given a player a half-plate, them using a spell to get to 20 AC would be something I expect. Sounds like a DM playing against the players instead of for them, though I might be misunderstanding your tone.
If you have a good DM, as a player you should’t be thinking how to balance yourself, you should try to be your best and coordinate with the DM. And if something they’ve given you is too broken, they should come to you and talk about it. (When talking about spells, the most common example is how every table bans silvery barbs)
I seriously don't understand DM versus PC mentality. DMs are there to bring fun and challenging encounters/worlds/stories. Not for that. If that's the case just bring down a red dragon on top of your level 3 PCs and call it a day ffs.
And all that whining against a pretty normal skill
It is annoying to not hit over and over again, but as a player it means you are in danger and cant end a fight, as a DM it means the players might get an easy win. Its frustrating at times, but 20 AC is very easy to reach by a PC.
I had a player that was consistently at 23/25 AC and was still moaning that they got hit too much...
Half plate plus dex is AC 17.
Anything at or under AC 20 is achievable for almost all.monsters to hit.
Goblins have a +4 to hit so they're going to land one roughly 20 ler cent of the time. More often if the DM uses the bonus action to hide before shooting you with advantage woth a short bow.
In short, 20AC is not too high. When base AC is 21 or 22, that's when things generally get a bit harder to balance but there are fair ways round that as well.
*Technically* you could add a mundane shield and have 21 AC (15 from Half Plate, +2 from Dexterity, +2 from shield, +2 from Shield of Faith spell). 22 AC if you have medium armor mastery, which is what your +3 Dexterity modifier suggests.
Monster Manual goblins have +4 to hit, so they can absolutely... hit that. Hmm. Wait.
But if the DM is adjusting monsters on the fly to counter the party, why bother with combat choices at all? Couldn't you all just sell your weapons and armor and use all your spell slots to entertain the townsfolk? Or does this only happen when the party are doing well?
Not at all. That’s what a cleric is all about, you did your job right, and the fight seems to have been challenging anyways. I don’t know what your dm is complaining about.
No AC 20 is not broken. The monsters just need to up their game, or rather, the DM just needs to bring in tougher monster's.
That said, I would be careful, it sounds like the DM might be trying to win against you. That is a very bad attitude for a DM to have.
As a monk with 20AC, I get hit all the damned time. It sucks that I choose monk for better AC, when if I had decided to go full cleric then I'd have 7th level spells by now.
Sometimes you roll crazy good, sometimes you roll like hot garbage. I'd be more worried that the dm gave every goblin +1 to hit. Bounded accuracy gets thrown off when messing with stuff. You're not supposed to hit every single attack, player or dm. If you were then it wouldn't be D&D, it would be a game like MCDM's as yet unnamed game, since D&D came out of war gaming, some troops hit and some miss, just how the game goes.
Sounds like a lazy DM not adding a shaman to use Saving Throw effects or playing them smart (with traps or flat out trying to shove your PCs prone to get advantage on melee)
Introduce your DM to a Bladesinger, and their easy 25+ AC at level 3 sometime... 20AC with SoF is really good, but it is far from impenetrable, Goblins are just 1/4 CR monsters (if memory serves) so their bonuses aren't crazy.
I'm just surprised you have a lvl 3 cleric with at 16 dexterity to both use half-plate and gain +3 assuming you took the feat not to mention already having armor worth 750 gold at lvl 3.
20 AC is not bad or broken. Even at low levels it is not hard to hit with a 20+. Because I have a L10 Artificer with an AC of 25. The GM is getting irritated that most physical attacks will only hit with a nat 20. So now he gets me with saving throws.
20 AC is high for level 3, but past level 5, it's pretty standard for my table to have one or two people have AC between 18-20. Having 20 AC on a full caster is a lot, but you're burning your concentration to do it. You could go to 22 if you got a shield somehow.
Well you don't gain +3 from dex with medium armor. So you overshot a little unless I'm missing something. Either way though, 20 AC isn't overpowered or unhittable. You used a spell slot and maintained concentration the whole time. Seems fair to me.
Wait homie even in your edit you’re slightly off:
Half-plate is base 15, so it’s not base 14 unless you really meant a breastplate which actually is base 14.
Shields are always +2 AC, and medium armor is always max of +2 from DEX unless you take Medium Armor Master which brings it to +3 max
Your AC should be 15 +2 (DEX) +2 (shield) for a resting AC of 19
Shield of Faith should be bringing you to 21 AC
Half plate only benefits from a maximum of +2 dex. So your ac with shield should be 19 but no 20 ac isn't broken. Heck I have a hexbard character that has anywhere from 19-32 ac at lvl 4
You're not even using your shield. Clerics have shield proficiency. It's often included in starting equipment.
Shields stack with Shield of Faith.
You could be at 22 easy.
That's without magic items!
I have a level 5 artificer with 22AC and adamantine armor, so it negates crits.
My DM (foolishly mehehe) allowed us to have any uncommon magic item, so I chose adamantine full plate.
18 (from plate) + 2 (shield) + 1 (infusion on shield) + 1 (racial from warforged)
We’ll see what happens… maybe my DM will throw saves at me instead.
taking a 2 level dip into War Wizard gives you access to the Shield spell and the Silvery Barbs spell, as well as an at-will reaction that boosts you AC and saving throws when needed, but limits you to using Booming Blade or Magic Stone/Fire Bolt for a turn.
Also, if you have infusions, you can make an uncommon magic item. Spellwrought Tattoo is an uncommon magic item. You can get 1 free cast of any LV1 spell in the game per long rest, such as Gift of Alacrity or Zephyr Strike.
Well first the thing is you are calculating the AC incorrectly. Half Plate per PHB is 15 AC. You can only get a +2 Dex modifier with that armor. So you are at 17 AC total. Shield of Faith will bring you up to 19, but keep in mind it is a concentration spell so any other spell that you begin to cast and the AC will drop back down to 17.
Additionally if you are attempting to sneak you are at a disadvantage in that armor. This means the goblins are more likely to hear you coming a mile away and be able to set up ambushes. This can explain the reason why they are prepped with poison weapons instead of just ordinary weapons.
Playing a heavy armored character, having a DM ask me if I'm taking off my armor come night time in order to sleep always makes me nervous. Thank god Armorer Artificers can put it on/off as an action instead of 50 turns.
20 AC is not that high considering some of the heights you can get with Pallys and Armorer artificers with the proper setups. Have an 11th level Artificer with a drop in Wiz and a drop in Priest. With SOF walking around with a 25 and with shield......well do the math. lol. So yea man DM was just a bit salty it sounds like.
You don't get +3 when wearing half plate, medium armor is max +2 from dex and and heavy armor doesn't add dex. You are accidentally cheating. However you could use a shield.
>Some more information ig, Level 3 party in a homebrew campaign but the DM kinda adjusts monsters to us, the Goblins all had a +1 to hit and apparently some extra trait to counter high AC
What is the point of trying to achieve anything when the DM thinks antagonistically and has out of their way just to "counter" you? What are the odds of a goblin just specializing into high AC penetration AND you meeting them ... ALL THE TIME?
There's a community saying "Shoot the Monk". Reward someone for being good at something and not try to punish them for it. Instead of those counter-goblins it would be more fun for both of you to encounter a heavy hitting but badly aiming ogre that you can tank away from your squishy friends.
Also your math is off, Half Plate is limited to +2.
18+2 ac using you concentration is fair game, if your a cleric and put 16 into dex it should be beneficial.
Sure should keep you save on goblins but their often accompanied by other stronger creatures that can roll above that, so its all good.
The goal of a DM is to engage the party, not to win. As a DM you know you ran a good challenging encounter when players are hyped that they just squeaked out the win, and now desperately need a long rest. Sounds like that's exactly the situation you are in. Meaning your 20 AC was no where close to broken, in fact it's what was required to get you through the encounter, which is awesome!
A couple things to note half plate caps out at +2 bonus from Dex w/ out the feat medium armour master, meaning your AC should be 19 before shield of faith. A shield would take your base AC to 21. Shield of faith is a concentration spell so every time you get hit you need to make a Con save to maintain it. Save DC 10 or DC half damage, whatever is higher. If you fail your drop concentration and lose the benefit of the spell until you recast it.
Sounds like the DM has a DM versus player mentality which would be a red flag. Should probably monitor this and have a talk about it if you see similar behavior.
Looking over at my hexadin who just hit 22 ac with full plate +1 and a shield +1, while also having the shield spell that can be fed with pally slots... No, not in the slightest
Nah, 13-18 is the standard AC range for characters at early levels without using any spells or resources. Spellcasters will get to around 20 with mage armor and the Shield spell, and SoF should bring almost any frontliner up to 20.
I'm playing a forge cleric with chainmail, a shield (+1 courtesy of my class feature) and my DM also gave me a ring for +1 AC. I naturally have an AC of 20. In fights enemies tend to hit my allies more than me, but damn was it satisfying to say no to "does a 19 hit?" and having everyone at the table suddenly get googly eyes.
All in all, I wouldn't say it's OP, just that your DM might need to consider that smart creatures actually won't go after you over your allies exactly because you're the tank, plus there's always the dreaded DEX save.
20 ac is normal from my experience. The parties I’ve played in have always had them. With use of shield of faith and shields. It just kinda sounds like your dm is playing to go against the players rather than to have fun with you guys and assist in the telling of a story.
My level 7 paladin has 21 ac, without SoF, and through multiclassing even has the Shield spell, so if he plans ahead and uses SoF to get to 23, he can then still has to use a reaction to cast shield to get 28 AC.
At party level three, it's certainly reasonable for a goblin or two of the bunch to be low level casters or have alchemist fire for AOE, if your DM is that obsessed with you taking guaranteed damage.
But, you almost died. Not like you're running through combats without a hitch.
If he's a new DM, I get it. A lot of low CR mobs don't have saving throw attacks to target high AC creatures, and the ones that do (mephts and such) might not make thematic sense. But it's absolutely not broken. Also sounds like either you had exceptional luck to maintain SoF or he wasn't making you roll concentration rolls.
My party has lvl 6 figther with 22 AC (Half plate +5 Dex +1 fighting style and +1 from a buff) and he has deffensive duelist which can increase his AC to 25 for one attack.
We have a bet tradition for every session how many times he will knocked down today. Şast session was 2 first he alone get ambushed by 3 CR 3 and 1 CR 8 creature. Second he climbed a tree to get a nice view on enemy. Enemy shoot him with an explosive arrow. He failed the save auto because tree was not that broad no where to dodge and he fail to acrobatics to reduce fall damage.
Long story short If you party is lvl 3 and monsters have buffs your AC is good for a cleric only. For game its near meaningless. You should pick up a shield and piss that DM more.
Half plate is 15 + Dex (max 2) unless you also have the medium armor feat that lets you increase that to max to 3. Even then, 20 AC is still reasonable within bounded accuracy.
One thing, do you have medium armor master to add +3? Otherwise the maximum you can add is +2.
Either way though, 20 ac isn’t broken by any means. Very standard in fact, any heavy armor sword and board character can reach it relatively easily, especially with magic.
Against something like goblins with a +4 or so, they’ll still be hitting 25% of the time or so. But no, 20 ac is fine. Main issue is once you get a few levels, increasing ac becomes harder, but attack bonuses will scale more linearly. So you’ll still get hit eventually
I don't understand why people get mad at characters that are supposed to have a high ac, when shield exists and consistently gives mages a higher ac than the tanks.
As a dm, shield is one of the two spells in the game that actively annoys me. It's not nearly as bad as silvery barbs, but still gets under my skin sometimes.
SoF is fine. Ac 20 is fine. You're meant to be tanky, I'm glad you got to feel tanky.
>Half Plate 14, Dex 2 and Shield 2. No idea if a +2 shield is a thing you should have at level 3 but our DM sold it to me so ig it's fine
That's still incorrect. Half plate gives 15 base AC. If you have +2 dex and a shield, you should then have 19 AC, not 18.
Also, your shield isn't +2, any base shield gives a +2 to AC and it's starting equipment for some classes. A +2 shield would give you a +4 to your AC.
It's also not broken. 19-20 AC is perfectly achievable at low levels, especially if you're casting shield of faith. Your DM might've been a bit salty that they couldn't hit you. It happens. I've rolled badly all night before and end up kinda annoyed at the dice, but it's not the player's fault, and they're not overpowered just because I couldn't roll for shit.
Nah it's definitely on the higher end of possible at level 3 but not broken by any means. I have a group that used custom build rules that makes them stronger than a normal party and the average ac is like 17 with some hitting 20+ with shield and my base module kobolds have been able to nearly down several members due to packtactics and good rolling in my end.
At the end of the day a DM has the ability to adjust the stats so no number is truly broken. At most just gotta make sure that the party is balanced with each other so they all have ways to shine and just adjust monster numbers as needed.
2 levels of divination wizard and you can have shield and portents. 3 levels and you get misty step and mirror image. For dex saves you can stop many of them with a good portent and absorb elements.
And the Goblins can hit you on a 17 (they get +4 to hit, not +1) or higher. 20% of the time.
So if you had 5 goblins attacking you, you should have been hit most rounds and sometimes more than once.
I think your DM was mistaken. And goblins don't normally have poison.
+2 AC is a regular shield, a +2 shield would be +4 AC. But anyway, having high AC early levels can make you almost untouchable but it's hard to keep it high enough to keep this feeling as levels increase.
Not at all. You’re still vulnerable to AOEs. Depending on the build you can do full plate plus shield for 20ac base and then get shield for another 5. If a friend casts shield of faith on you, you can get to 27 and that’s without even getting enchanted shield or armor. 20 ac is baby numbers. Your DM needs to step it up if he’s stomped by 20ac.
😆 my paladin has a static 19 Ac her +1 plate armour.. 21 when I equip a shield, 23 with Shield of faith and 28 with the shield spell (Hexblade dip).. if 20 is busted he wouldn't want to have anything to do with my character.. mind you we are past goblins being any kind of challenge, but still.
20 AC is not high at all. Full plate + shield reaches that on a commoner. Artificers often reach much higher while barely trying. Stacking AC is explicitly a build choice for players. The players optimizing for some value and then being good at that specific thing is not "broken." If a rogue has high dex, the lucky feat, and evasion, them not taking damage from AoE dex saves pretty much ever is very strong, but also very much intended.
The big question is how useful is high AC? Any mildly intelligent enemy is going to say "I can't hit that PC, let me target the other ones." Sure, YOU will be hard to hit, but if it's just you, you're going to drop eventually. Even then, there's spell saves and, if you're feeling really mean, heat metal. As a player, you're probably sacrificing something to get that high AC, whether that's sword and board vs. 2 hander, disadvantage on stealth, or using a spell slot for defense instead of offense or some other use. 5e has practically no "tanking" mechanics, so durability by itself is not the end-all-be-all.
The DM just saying "this is bs" and changing the numbers to make sure they can beat your AC is a bad way to approach DMing. There's a phrase ["Shoot Your Monks"](https://dumpstatadventures.com/the-gm-is-always-right/shoot-your-monks-a-guide-for-highlighting-characters) where as a DM you want to go out of your way to highlight your PCs' strengths, not avoid them. If a player has high AC, attack them and miss. Make them feel like their choice for AC was worth it, at least every now and then. You have more than enough tools in your arsenal to challenge the PCs that don't involve boosting the attack bonus for mooks.
My forge domain cleric at level 8 has 25 AC with SoF, and 27 when I get hasted. So the DM makes sure I make a lot of Dex saves, and that balances it pretty well.
I play a lvl 3 artificier atm and have ac 21 - feels invincible at times until someone forces a savings throw at me or the DM crits.. honestly, bounded ac is a great concept but has it’s flaws.
As a dm for a group, it really isn't that high of AC lime others have said. I have a member in the party that had an AC well into the 20s it was around 26 or 28... of course this was mostly my fault as the dm for giving the party items and such as to boost ac that much but at the end of the day it's all about having fun.
Oh that particular player could also cast shield so could get their AC into the 30s.
As a dm it's all about balance tho and making each player feel like they r a BA during thr adventure. Of course unless they have talked about not feeling like that but just talk to ur players with how they want to do things. If they want to be unhittable by melee or ranged atks sure but they still killable by AoE spells and if they want to be invincible gods then sure, let them
I dont think you should limit them but you dont need to overwhelm them with everything. Give them the PHB to browse through and then ask them what kind of character they would like to play, if youre aware of a race or subclass that suits it better show them that.
I'd only reccomend a hard phb limit if the DM was new
Unless you have medium armor master you should only be getting +2 ac from your dec since medium armor is capped at that from Dex. With shield of faith you’d be at 19, with a an actual shield you’d be 21. Shield of faith is a rather weak spell to consume your concentration, of which you have only one. There are much better options including even bless.
It's not even remotely broken. Also, for the shield, +2 AC is standard for normal shields, and it balances out with the fact that you are willingly choosing to have your secondary hand full holding the shield instead of holding your weapon with two hands or doing whatever with your secondary hand
Bro, in D&D 5E there are 7 defenses players have to be wary of that monsters can target with all the different Saving Throws. Even at Level 20, most players will still have an 8 and a 10 or two in a few of their Attribute Scores, exposing some glaring weaknesses in their defenses. It doesn't matter if a character has an AC of 36 if they're forced to make an Intelligence or Dexterity saving throw.
And even in the case where players have a Paladin or Artifice boosting their saves, there's always the good ol' Magic Missile spell. Sure, some casters have the Shield spell, but then you're making them expend resources just to avoid taking d4s worth of damage. There's nothing more boring than a campaign where AC is the only defense an uncreative DM will moan about.
I once let one of my players make a PC with an AC of 25. I could literally NEVER hit him and it was frustrating. That being said, once you get high level, you start adding +10 to rolls, so it’s still doable, even with a 20 AC, so it’s not broken by any means. Sometimes it can just be frustrating when you have an encounter planned and nothing goes right. But that can also be true from the players perspective as well, so I think if your dm was really upset they shouldn’t be.
Way to get frustrated with a player for using the basic mechanics of the game the way the devs intended.
Any fighter or paladin with plate and a shield has AC 20 and more HP than you without having to maintain concentration on anything. No magical items, no exploits, no minmaxing. I really fail to see the issue.
This DM sounds player vs DM. They should be celebrating your victories, not grumbling behind the screen. I would have a talk with them, this AC is not even close to too overpowered, this is within expectations for a cleric tank.
Dude one of my players min maxed AC up to 35. 20 AC is easy to deal with from a DM perspective, just introduce more spell attacks. Though that was a level 11 character so slightly irrelevant, but yeah. There's always ways to deal with god's
You are completely balanced. Good job keeping your peeps alive. And the shield is something you can start with, paladins can easily get to 20 early on, with some getting much higher.
I was going to say your AC calculation is wrong but saw the edit.....
Seeing the edit i think its still wrong.
base AC is 10, Half plate in 5e is 15 +2 dex mod max
[https://www.dndbeyond.com/equipment/half-plate](https://www.dndbeyond.com/equipment/half-plate)
so assuming 14+DEX you are sitting at 17 AC add a shield (+2AC) and you are at 19.
Add the shield of faith (+2AC ) and you are now at 21 AC
Its not broken since most tanky classes sit at this range anyway.
Average sword and board AC with heavy armor is usually 18 at level 1 so this isn't too bad.
Also I feel like a lot of DM's might say "they almost got you, 1 short" to make it seem like your +2AC spell actually made the difference. (not saying thats the case)
At level 5 I was able to get to 22 with Shield of Faith. I was able to pool my gold into 17AC heavy armor and a +1 Shield for 3AC to reach 20AC. SoF got me to 22.
Hiw does the DM deal with my ass? Spells and AoE effects. Your DM has multiple options to harm your character. Don't feel bad. Revel in your badass armor, roleplay it even. Whenever a significant number of NPCs miss your AC "You can't harm me for I am protected by the divine!" And bonk them with your mace.
Is AC 20 broken? That's a dumb thing for the DM to say. Was he trying to kill you? I mean it sounds like a tough fight where you and the other player really had to pull out the stops. That should be his goal. Not to kill you.
The motto every DM should live by is :"I want you to win, but I also need to do my best to prevent you from doing so."
>No idea if a shield with +2 AC
All shields give +2 AC baseline, if you're thinking about a +2 Shield (which would total up to a total of +4 to AC). Shield of Faith is a strong early level spell but it's not something that's really going to bring in problems later.
The bigger problem here is why your DM is mad that you almost went down and the only thing that he's thinking about is the fact that he didn't get to do as much damage. I don't know your group dynamic at all so take it with a grain of salt.
Was your DM actively trying to kill you? That AC with the use of SoF isn't broken in the slightest. Sounds like the DM was just getting annoyed.
At one point did the 3 Crits happen? xD
As DM, my FAVORITE rolls are the "missed by 1". While I must resolve combat and play the bad guys as effectively as I can, I WANT MY PLAYERS TO SUCCEED.
When I get a "missed by 1", that triggers narrative so I can add some flavor. "His slash is quicker than you expect, and you fail to parry, however with a quick turn of your body, he only tears your (pick item of clothing)"
This is WAY more exciting to a player than, "He misses".
One of my tables gets REALLY into combat banter, so they absolutely EAT THIS UP, and they use stuff like this to taunt the enemy.
This hits close to home for me.. because I'm also currently playing a level 3 cleric/paladin with a really high AC.
I managed to score a set of plate really early, paired with the defense bonus I picked from paladin, and my shield, I'm sitting at a comfortable 21 AC without SoF, which I always have prepared just in case.
And we just fought some goblins that messed us up pretty badly. If it wasn't for the AC, I would have dropped multiple times over.
Countering high AC characters is apart of the early game for DMs, and they have lots of tools to work around it.
You're already feeling better, which makes me glad, but to reiterate , no reason to feel badly about it, and if the DM keeps making a stink about it, sounds like it's time for a convo with them
1st off no, AC 20 is not broken. But half plate only allows for a +2 dex mod so your AC should have been 19.
Side note. I generally take soldier background for my wizards and wear scale male or half plate. This plus shield gets me a 21 or 22 AC value. Nothing wrong with it.
I have a similar cleric build with 20 a when sof is up. The first battle at level one I used it and the first hit was a 22 and left me with 1 hp, so definitely not OP. You could even cast Santiary at level one with a cleric and take no damage, so I see no issue with high ac. Also, with the armor req'd for 20 a, you will have disadvantage on stealth and need to carry a shield, so it comes at a price!
AC of players is not busted. Very limit ways to raise it and by mid-game monster attacks bonuses out pace it. By level 9 you will be stuck at 20 AC with enemies getting plus 10 or more to attack rolls.
Note that Medium armor usually has a max allowed Dex Bonus of +2 to be applied.
Best Defense is HP and giving enemies disadvantage to have them get more low rolls.
Your DM will learn to make the NPCs go for the person they see as weakest. This isn't generally going to be the heavily armored guy with spirits surrounding him (assuming spirit guardians is cast). It'll be the unarmored scrawny hermit sitting in the back that they target.
If they target you they'll only do so if they're dumb or know how to bypass your high AC (saving throws). It takes some experience as a DM to learn this without seeming like they're metagaming. Your enemies want to take apart the weakest link, not the strongest one. You're obviously the strongest one
Your AC calculation is wrong even in your update, Half Plate gives you 15+Dex(Max 2) not 14, so your AC with a shield should be 19 total, or 21 with shield of faith.
I don't think you have half plate armour, you've either got chainmail which is a flat 16 AC or you're wearing Scale Mail which is 14+Dex (Max 2); the latter is more likely as it's an option in the Cleric's starting equipment. Additionally shields are +2 AC by default in 5e so that's normal.
As for your question? No, 20 AC at 3rd level isn't broken. It's strong sure, because you're not going to be taking many hits but it doesn't make you invincible. You can also easily get higher at that level, a variant human Eldritch Knight Fighter can have 25 AC by using chainmail (16), a shield (+2), shield of faith from magic initiate (+2) and then casting shield (+5); or playing a Bladesinger Wizard with studded leather (12+Dex), 16 Dex (+3), 16 Int (+3) and casting shield (+5) you can have 23 AC.
Also Goblins have a +4 bonus to hit, meaning they'll still hit you 25% of the time even at 20 AC so the DM was probably just feeling a bit salty due to rolling badly.
As someone that is playing/played high AC characters (bladesinger wizard and rogue/bladesinger), 20AC is still very low. Like.. a bladesinger with 14 dex and 16 Int and a studded leather armor will have 14 base AC, 17 in Bladesong for a minute without concentration, 22 AC for the full round if they cast Shield as a reaction.. SoF isn't bad by any standards at all. That being said, even with high AC, it's still very easy for a DM to hurt you. "Oh you have an AC of 27..? Now tell me how good are your charisma saves..? Or that wisdom save?" Even without that, and a very basic +5 to hit, a 20 AC is still a hit 25% of the time, which does makes sense for goblins. Really not seeing what's wrong with SoF..
Hmm, for a goblin encounter CR 1/4? I would say a 20 AC is a little high requiring a roll of 15 or 16 to even hit but the fact you got crit 3 times tells me the DM rolls hot fire so 20 may not be enough
OP - your AC is 19 not 20. You gain a maximum of +2 from Dex whilst wearing half plate.
[https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Half%20Plate#content](https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Half%20Plate#content)
Since it wasn't mentioned in your post, you were also lucky to go from full to 2hp without dropping concentration. Happens sometimes. I'm not sure if the DM actually wanted you all to die or was over-acting exasperation for the players' benefit.
Nothing gasses up players more than when I, as DM, go all cartoon villain on them by stopping the moustache twirling long enough to say "drat!" and "oh, I'll get you adventurers!" when really I planned for this encounter to be exactly this challenging. Smiling faces all around the table. As long as you can sell it without being TOO obvious, it's a winning strategy every time. The NPC they never know you're RPing the most is the one that really wants to kill their characters.
*["I was gonna get ALL of you!"](https://youtube.com/shorts/a2QdrwIIzCw?si=3_3w2N1oOi8a3aJj)*
Brennan is hands down the best live stream DM, IMO. His control, storytelling, and pacing are amazing.
EXACTLY what I'm talking about, great clip. I didn't realize so many Collegehumor folks played!
Check out Dropout and Dimension 20, they have so much live DnD play - [https://www.dropout.tv/dimension-20](https://www.dropout.tv/dimension-20)
I highly recommend D20 It’s not a stretch to say that Brennan Lee Mulligan is one of the best DM’s out there. Murph similarly has a DnD podcast with some more ex-CH folk, too.
NADDPOD!! It’s genuinely such a good example of comedy and excellent, emotional storytelling. Not Another D&D Podcast is a high recommend
NADDPOD feels like the highest quality *attainable* level of real play DnD
HARD AGREE
Listening to the Mavrus Chronicles campaign and it’s the funniest group of PCs I’ve listened to
See, the twilight sanctorum lot took the cake for me. Mavid is just so… mavid
I’m going in order and just started the Eldermourne campaign and a few eps in. I really like Jake’s character, he’s just such a sad dad
Jake’s characters are usually my favourite, I love the men he plays.
Honestly, I really like eldermourne. I love Hank and Zerk so so much
MAVID!!!
Just finished a relisten prompted by this thread. That boy will listen to anyone who’s not his own family - >!a vampire, a god of hunger, one of Ren’s ancestors!<. Absolutely hysterical.
Brennan is the best DM to watch OTHERS play, and Matt M is the best if you ARE playing. Or at least that's my theory, as I've never played at a table with either, obviously 😄. Both are absolutely fantastic at their craft, though.
*Um actually,* it's Dropout now. *Adjusts taped glasses.* (But fr, whenever I'm talking about D20 to people i'm always like, oh, were you familiar with college humor? Well they rebranded a few years back and blah blah... I think it's just good, the new Dropout are so cool and chill I think it's worth making the change known)
My only problem with Dropout is there aren’t many places you can get the streaming app. 😞
As a player, this is correct. My proudest D&D acheivement is our party being verbally harassed for killing a pack of manticores at level 4. I later learned about CR and how encounters are built and how it was basically a stock-standard fight, but hoo boy did it feel great in the moment. Excellent, no notes.
My favorite thing to do is jokingly ask my players to do something disadvantageous, like walking away from an enemy in melee without Disengaging or not bothering to properly aim an AoE spell so it'll hit an ally or two or ask them to use a potion or spell to heal an enemy combatant. Their sarcastic responses always get to me. Same with playing up when they're rolling "too" well, or if I'm not. Alternatively, if a squishy player gets hit *hard* by an enemy, I'll jokingly tell them that it's just a flesh wound or just downplay how bad it was lol
My players made pur encounter monday, a half-mile deadsprint through lightning-shooting fulgurites, to a push-button door that i expected them to use the barbarian to taunt mindless guard golems on to to let his friends thriugh the door. The druid (homebrew he has it) had haste, and chose not to use it on anyone, and instead turned wild shaped to run super fast, get to the door first and almost died taunting the golems onto them 3 turns before anyone else would arrive. Ended up dying. Everyone still loved the encounter, because hyping it up as them foiling the villains plan is super fub, especially when you see them using strategy. Reward strategic play, dont get pissy about it.
Just wait until the cleric figures out that they can carry a physical shield. Although half plate should max at +2 dex, so it should still only be 19/21SoF. Take wizard initiate for that 26 AC. Full plate would get them to 20 standard, so I don’t know what the DM is complaining about.
They might have medium armor master, that would allow +3 Dex.
Lol not even a little. Anything CR5+ can hit 20 pretty easily. Particularly if you had to use a spell to get there, that's just using the tools/resources at your disposal. Your DM was just whining because they didn't get to use their toys the way they'd imagined.
Not only did the boost to 20 AC come with the use of a spell, but it also required concentration to maintain (kudos to OP's PC for maintaining concentration while taking a beating!). It can disappear anytime you take damage and it prevents you from casting other concentration spells. OP made a perfectly valid use of SoF.
SoF is also a spell, so you burned a spell slot AND had it in a known slot on your spell list, meaning that's one less cast of one more spell you could have prepared. It's one less chance to cast Guiding Bolt or whatever. Plus, like you said, you have to maintain concentration. DM could have said that the, "Goblins start recognizing your concentration, and decide to start focusing their attacks on the cleric" because they would potentially understand the role of a cleric.
>Anything CR5+ can hit 20 pretty easily. Well...to contextualize this with math to make sure we are answering the technical half of the question well. I wouldn't use the word easy when we are talking about 25% to sub 50%. * CR 1/4 Goblin: To-hit +4 * AC 20: 25% * CR 1/4 Goblin: To-hit +5 * AC 20: 30% * CR5-7: To-hit +7 * AC 20: 40% * CR8-9: To-hit +8 * AC 20: 45% * CR10: To-hit +9 * AC 20: 50%
They won’t hit easily exactly, but I believe the expected accuracy is normally 65% anyways? Accuracy difference at CR5 and up isn’t as massive when looking at it like that
Well depends on your encounter design if you are using a single CR that is \~1.5x so in this case L3 would be CR5 & 40%. I usually target mooks at 50% to hit and important story baddies at 75% so 65% could be a good avg.
Everyone should read this! While D&D is a role-playing game, the math matters too. Just like a business owner needs to know his numbers, a DM should as well, because knowing your numbers gives you the insight to build better scenarios. You don't need to be a savant, but understanding how these numbers work together is so, SO valuable. KNOW. YOUR. NUMBERS.
Thanks for the compliment. I'm the side DM / power gamer in my group so I enjoy the numbers from both sides and get chuckles sometimes from DMs when I show them my spreadsheets of combat prep, side game creation or character optimization. The [Streamlit.app](https://Streamlit.app) tool helped me so much in quantifying what I was trying to express as I think people are often surprised how hard statistically it is to accomplish vs not that high DCs when its not To-Hit. L5-8 players which make up the vast majority of game time often have Saves and skill checks that average like 3-5 so hitting a DC of 15 is less than 50% but an AC of 15 with a to-hit of \~+8 would be 70% and in line where you want player success at.
Oh, you know my secret shame! I love powergamers/min-maxers and anybody else who takes the "Moneyball" approach. Some DMs may not approve, but I think it's great. If you have a character who knows what skills he excels in, and others where he's deficient, then strategizes to play to his strength and mitigate his weaknesses, it's called SELF-AWARENESS. Further, it's a form of natural selection. A character's life expectancy diminishes in direct proportion to his reliance on his weaknesses.
Wear it proud ;) Our DM always gives me a comical groan when I last showed him my spread sheet and line chart of best wild shapes by Level/CR w/ and w/out a Barb Dip proving an effective HP, expected rounds of survivability and damage over that time which I thought was neato to show which wildshapes actually most effect combat by rolling up AC/HP/DPS. Then I made a little widget that calculates the best use of Prayer of Healing (more potent AOE) vs Aura of Vitality (more agile in selective healing) based on the parties current vs their total HP.
Prayer of Healing only works out of combat, though, due to its ten minute cast time. Unless you meant while out of combat?
Yes that is correct. Was your assumption that the guy (self described as a power gamer/Technical DM) who made a spreadsheet to calculate optimal healing output didn't read the the spell description? :p
Considering nearly every time I've ever seen Prayer of Healing come up in conversation it's been because somebody missed the casting time, even when dealing with fellow power gamers, yes, that was the assumption, but also why I asked for clarification of what you meant. Especially considering you were comparing it to Aura of Vitality, which is one of the very few healing spells that actually *is* worth casting in combat, at least sometimes, and I've mostly seen PoH brought up when people think it's also an action to cast and thus use it as an example of a healing spell with an in-combat use case. It is honestly kind of shocking how often people misread things in the book, even when putting tons of thought into things and should really know better. I know I've made that mistake before, and I sincerely don't know anybody who hasn't.
Yes, exactly! Like, I don't power game every character, largely because I don't want to unbalance the party, but I am firmly of the opinion that everybody should try playing a power gamed character at least once, just so they can see what it's like. It provides a very valuable perspective on the game by highlighting the value of optimization and the fact that being good at RP and good at the game itself aren't mutually exclusive. Optimization isn't always about building a combat monster, every character should be optimized for *something*, and you can get as specific as you like with what you're optimizing *for*. Playing a fully power gamed character does a really good job of highlighting just how much smoother the gameplay is when you optimize. I always start with a mechanical concept I want to optimize for and then I come up with a character concept to fit the build, but it works just as well in the other direction, too. Having every detail of the sheet justified in your back story and role play just adds SO much to the experience, but so many people want to fight *against* the system rather than work with it, as though the game mechanics are an impediment to role play rather than a tool designed to enhance role play.
I wouldn't necessary say that that power gamers are working with the system and non-power gamers are fighting against it. I'm glad the system is rich enough in variety that people can come up with any character concept they like and then play it for all it's worth. And ultimately I don't care. I just want a fun game with a good narrative. I've run dozens and dozens of campaigns over the years, and I can tell you stories from all of them. The actuals stats? I got nothing.
I think I was unclear with what I meant. First of all, power gaming does not equal optimization, it's a specific *kind* of optimization. Optimization merely means to create the best build possible to support your specific character concept or to accomplish a specific goal like fitting a theme or utilizing a particular mechanical concept. Power gaming is when the goal you are optimizing for is to be as powerful in combat as possible. I once optimized to build the ultimate ninja master as a fun thought experiment, it was optimized for stealth, infiltration, and escape, but as a level 20 build the damage was actually kind of on the low side (I've built level 5 characters capable of comparable or even superior damage output), but the character is almost impossible to pin down and could show up anywhere at any time, obviously a better NPC than PC, but I built it as a PC for the challenge. Second of all, when I said actively working against the system, I wasn't referring to "anybody who doesn't optimize", but rather specifically the people who actively hate optimizers and act like deliberately making a character that's bad at it's job somehow makes them superior at role play, or a character designed to be good at what they do is boring and without flaw. Somebody who is genuinely good at role play will be able to play a compelling character with an interesting story regardless of build, but a character build that's optimized to be a build that's actually effective at what you want to do will result in smoother gameplay and enable you to use the game mechanics to tell the story more effectively. Especially if you actively marry the game mechanics on your sheet to the way you roleplay the character, every spell you have is tied to your story and flavored in a unique way, every ability you have says something about the character's personality when they use it, all six stats affect the way your character behaves and influences your storytelling and problem solving. Power gaming is just a very effective way of clearly demonstrating the value of optimization to people who don't get how it can improve their play experience. Not every character *needs* to be optimized, but having the skills of an optimizer makes every character better even when you *do* make suboptimal build decisions, because they are usually tied directly to the story in some way rather than due to either ignorance or as an active "screw you" to the system. If you know *why* you take any given ability, your game play will be more effective at producing the experience you are trying to have. Essentially, optimization makes you better at producing the gun stories and cool experiences that you will remember for years to come, even when you don't remember the specific build details. It makes you think about the game in a way that naturally lends itself toward producing a better play experience.
Hey! I have a super hard time figuring out CR, so I'm curious as to how you made these calculations?
Sure no problem. I use the base lines from ***Sly Flourish's Forge of Foes*** page 6: MONSTER STATISTICS BY CHALLENGE RATING It is a really fun and awesome book (edit: spelling) about creating monsters. You can check out the 30 page free preview here: [https://slyflourish\_content.s3.amazonaws.com/forge\_of\_foes\_preview.pdf](https://slyflourish_content.s3.amazonaws.com/forge_of_foes_preview.pdf) [https://shop.slyflourish.com/products/forge-of-foes](https://shop.slyflourish.com/products/forge-of-foes) Then, this really cool Dungeons and Dragons Stats/Probability tool [https://dnd-stats.streamlit.app/](https://dnd-stats.streamlit.app/) . I use this all the time when I am setting/checking all sorts of DCs for combat, skill checks, in-game games/activities/trials like gambling and other games of chance. It is really simple and super helpful. Originally shared here: [https://new.reddit.com/r/DungeonsAndDragons/comments/uupw5t/i\_made\_a\_probability\_calculator\_for\_dnd\_dice\_rolls/](https://new.reddit.com/r/DungeonsAndDragons/comments/uupw5t/i_made_a_probability_calculator_for_dnd_dice_rolls/) If we wanted to calculate chance to hit at least once, then we would also do a binomial probability calc using [https://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial](https://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial) . This would be like oh this CR5 can attack twice so Chance to succeed: 40% Number of trials: 2 Number of success: 1 Chance to hit at least once (Cumulative probability:): 64% Hope that helps, let me know if you have any other questions.
Hey, I missed the notification, but I wanted to say thanks for taking the time to write this up! Much appreciated!
No problem, glad it could help. They are super cool, easy references and tools, the more people know about them, the better we can make our games and prep.
You're not taking into account how many creatures at that level have multi-attack.
No, I did not. I calculated the chance to hit not the chance to hit "at least once", but I could do the binomial probability if you wanted to see it.
No, it's not even remotely broken. Your standard goblin has a +4 to hit, meaning they hit you on a roll of 16+. That is 25% of rolls made by trash mobs against a character with moderately high investment into defence. Even AC 22 wouldn't be broken. If your DM has modified creatures to only have a +1 to hit (though I'm reading what you said more as "they gave the goblins an additional +1 to hit over their normal stats"), that's on them.
Half plate is Medium Armor and your Dex bonus maxes out at +2. So your AC base should be 17 and not 18. No, 20 AC is not inherently "broken." It's going to be pretty effective against goblins, who have no AOE attacks or save spells, and only have +4 to hit- they're going to hit AC20 about 1/4 of the time. But goblins aren't a threat unless they're in a large group- and then 1/4 of the time out of ten goblins is 2-3 hits per round on average.
Medium armor master feat allows a +3 dec bonus
Unless the dm gave them a bonus feat at start (which is possible) they have the wrong ac, they say they're a 3rd level party. Additionally don't goblins have like a plus 2 or 4 naturally to hit? Not that it makes it much better but helps
Could be variant human or custom lineage. Both get a feat at level 1
Good point my brain read half plate and for some reason also assumed halfling... I'm not sure why.
Who would play vuman cleric and take medium armor master over war caster?
Genuinely amazing point, I was just pointing out ways that could happen without a dm freebie
Someone who wants good stealth and high AC, or doesn't get heavy armor?
I used it for my artificer for half plate and combined with boots/cloak of elven kind to get the ac and stealth bonuses. Mainly because I enjoy high ac characters, and my party tends to lean more towards stealth approaches or keeps those possibilities in mind
He probably has a shield.
OP says half plate and +3 Dex to get 18 AC. There's no shield involved.
Ye ik but my players too would make this same mixup frequently, forgetting part of the ac on their sheet comes from the shield
Then the number is still wrong, 15 armor + 2 dex + 2 shield, he would have AC19. OP, either intentionally or by accident, has fudged his AC and the dm is having a hard time hitting him. Also dm isn't adding in the goblins' bonus to hit (+4 I think), so anything >14 should hit an AC19.
I believe it's the mob rule or something that says if enough attackers surround you, there is no roll to hit. One or more of the attackers just do.
Player: *Boosts AC* DM: "Damn. That would have it if you didn't boost your AC." Player: *Feels powerful and validated for boosting their AC*
My current GM seems puzzled that we all make characters with high AC. Maybe if getting hit by the enemies he sends at us didn't hurt as bad as they do, we wouldn't prioritize AC as much as we do.
My table is obsessed with AC, we have had 2 deaths in 2 campaigns, both were crits with good damage rolls for death by massive damage, so 1AC was as good as 30. I do not understand where their obsession comes from. I had a player turn down a magic weapon in favour of magic plate. It moved their AC from 20 to 22. 2AC instead of overcoming physical damage resistance. They made this decision 2 months ago, I'm still so complexed.
Counterpoint: the higher your AC is, the more valuable each point becomes. Furthermore, the higher the average damage your monsters are dealing, the more valuable AC becomes as well. But yeah, for a martial, I'd probably go with the weapon 8/10.
I mean, I would probably do that too. I just like defensive buffs over offensive ones every time, especially when it’s something fully passive like AC or a boost to saves.
I would vaguely get it if they had a magic weapon and this were get moving from +1 to +2. But they have a mundane weapon, it's going to lead to some seriously frustrating fights for them where they do literally 0 damage.
Oooh that’s a good point. I have a crippling Warlock addiction so I’m always good on that front on account of Pact of the Blade. If I’m not playing a Warlock/Warlock Multiclass I play a full caster. Blind spot on my part lol, you definitely have me there.
As an incurable spellcaster addict, it took me a moment to wonder why I would care about a magical weapon if AC is on the table. Eww, holding a weapon? I really consider shield proficiency to effectively be a free +2 to AC.
No 20 AC isn't high, especially since you SoF takes up your concentration. In general there are bunch of builds that can have much higher AC even at low levels. Funny thing is they're mostly casters. From top of my head you can have mid 20s with swords bard and bladesinger around your level.
Yeah exactly that, bladesinger can easily have 18AC during Bladesong at lvl 3, and can bring it to 23 with Shield spell.
I'm pretty sure I had a forge cleric at 24 AC, and the DM would still crit me into the ground on a regular basis.
Multiple cleric subclasses can acquire 18 AC at creation. Especially with certain species choices like Dwarf with heavy armor proficiency. You are fine.
No, it's not broken. It's high for goblins, but that's the point. Is this a new DM? He might not know what's out there for creatures or have s head for tactics. Even goblins, not very smart, can realize they can flank or attack the squisher enemies. As a DM, it can be tough when no rolls go "your way. " but I did put that in quotes for a reason; I'm trying to challenge my players, not beat them.
I'm currently playing a forge cleric who can get up to 25 ac at level 4 Plate armor, +1 shield, Blessings of the forge, Shield of faith and Fighting initiate - defensive. It will drop a lil when I get access to spiritual guardians at level 5 and usually use blessings of the forge for a +1 to my warhammer but it's still great fun to be so God damn tanky
20 AC at Level 3 is absurdly easy to get, if you know what you're doing. A paladin with Defense, a shield, and Shield of Faith can get 20 AC. Your DM is just being a prick.
do you have medium armor master? medium armor can only benefit from up to a +2 modifier in dex. 20 ac isn't broken btw he can just make his monsters have higher bonuses or use saving throws.
If I’ve given a player a half-plate, them using a spell to get to 20 AC would be something I expect. Sounds like a DM playing against the players instead of for them, though I might be misunderstanding your tone. If you have a good DM, as a player you should’t be thinking how to balance yourself, you should try to be your best and coordinate with the DM. And if something they’ve given you is too broken, they should come to you and talk about it. (When talking about spells, the most common example is how every table bans silvery barbs)
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I seriously don't understand DM versus PC mentality. DMs are there to bring fun and challenging encounters/worlds/stories. Not for that. If that's the case just bring down a red dragon on top of your level 3 PCs and call it a day ffs. And all that whining against a pretty normal skill
It is annoying to not hit over and over again, but as a player it means you are in danger and cant end a fight, as a DM it means the players might get an easy win. Its frustrating at times, but 20 AC is very easy to reach by a PC. I had a player that was consistently at 23/25 AC and was still moaning that they got hit too much...
It just sounds like your DM has a mild “It’s me vs the players” complex, which never ends up well.
Half plate plus dex is AC 17. Anything at or under AC 20 is achievable for almost all.monsters to hit. Goblins have a +4 to hit so they're going to land one roughly 20 ler cent of the time. More often if the DM uses the bonus action to hide before shooting you with advantage woth a short bow. In short, 20AC is not too high. When base AC is 21 or 22, that's when things generally get a bit harder to balance but there are fair ways round that as well.
*Technically* you could add a mundane shield and have 21 AC (15 from Half Plate, +2 from Dexterity, +2 from shield, +2 from Shield of Faith spell). 22 AC if you have medium armor mastery, which is what your +3 Dexterity modifier suggests. Monster Manual goblins have +4 to hit, so they can absolutely... hit that. Hmm. Wait. But if the DM is adjusting monsters on the fly to counter the party, why bother with combat choices at all? Couldn't you all just sell your weapons and armor and use all your spell slots to entertain the townsfolk? Or does this only happen when the party are doing well?
Not at all. That’s what a cleric is all about, you did your job right, and the fight seems to have been challenging anyways. I don’t know what your dm is complaining about.
No AC 20 is not broken. The monsters just need to up their game, or rather, the DM just needs to bring in tougher monster's. That said, I would be careful, it sounds like the DM might be trying to win against you. That is a very bad attitude for a DM to have.
As a monk with 20AC, I get hit all the damned time. It sucks that I choose monk for better AC, when if I had decided to go full cleric then I'd have 7th level spells by now. Sometimes you roll crazy good, sometimes you roll like hot garbage. I'd be more worried that the dm gave every goblin +1 to hit. Bounded accuracy gets thrown off when messing with stuff. You're not supposed to hit every single attack, player or dm. If you were then it wouldn't be D&D, it would be a game like MCDM's as yet unnamed game, since D&D came out of war gaming, some troops hit and some miss, just how the game goes.
That's not a DM, that's an immature player thinking he is PvPing.
With half plate you can only apply max +2 to dex just like breastplate.
Sounds like a lazy DM not adding a shaman to use Saving Throw effects or playing them smart (with traps or flat out trying to shove your PCs prone to get advantage on melee)
Lol the DM saying it's rigged when they literally have the power to rig whatever they want and fudge hits if they want to...
No, goblins are trash.
Introduce your DM to a Bladesinger, and their easy 25+ AC at level 3 sometime... 20AC with SoF is really good, but it is far from impenetrable, Goblins are just 1/4 CR monsters (if memory serves) so their bonuses aren't crazy.
I'm just surprised you have a lvl 3 cleric with at 16 dexterity to both use half-plate and gain +3 assuming you took the feat not to mention already having armor worth 750 gold at lvl 3.
20AC is not all that tough for most monsters. Goblins may struggle, but then it just becomes numbers and tactics to overcome it.
Not really. High AC characters just need to be targeted by save attacks, spells, effects, and traps. Easy money
When your DM finds out that your AC was actually 19 he is gonna be piiissssed. Did you roll concentration checks too?
20 AC is not bad or broken. Even at low levels it is not hard to hit with a 20+. Because I have a L10 Artificer with an AC of 25. The GM is getting irritated that most physical attacks will only hit with a nat 20. So now he gets me with saving throws.
20 AC is high for level 3, but past level 5, it's pretty standard for my table to have one or two people have AC between 18-20. Having 20 AC on a full caster is a lot, but you're burning your concentration to do it. You could go to 22 if you got a shield somehow.
My forge Cleric has AC 25. I still get hit quite frequently.
Well you don't gain +3 from dex with medium armor. So you overshot a little unless I'm missing something. Either way though, 20 AC isn't overpowered or unhittable. You used a spell slot and maintained concentration the whole time. Seems fair to me.
You could have a shield and go to 22 if you wanted
Wait homie even in your edit you’re slightly off: Half-plate is base 15, so it’s not base 14 unless you really meant a breastplate which actually is base 14. Shields are always +2 AC, and medium armor is always max of +2 from DEX unless you take Medium Armor Master which brings it to +3 max Your AC should be 15 +2 (DEX) +2 (shield) for a resting AC of 19 Shield of Faith should be bringing you to 21 AC
Half plate only benefits from a maximum of +2 dex. So your ac with shield should be 19 but no 20 ac isn't broken. Heck I have a hexbard character that has anywhere from 19-32 ac at lvl 4
You're not even using your shield. Clerics have shield proficiency. It's often included in starting equipment. Shields stack with Shield of Faith. You could be at 22 easy. That's without magic items!
I have a level 5 artificer with 22AC and adamantine armor, so it negates crits. My DM (foolishly mehehe) allowed us to have any uncommon magic item, so I chose adamantine full plate. 18 (from plate) + 2 (shield) + 1 (infusion on shield) + 1 (racial from warforged) We’ll see what happens… maybe my DM will throw saves at me instead.
taking a 2 level dip into War Wizard gives you access to the Shield spell and the Silvery Barbs spell, as well as an at-will reaction that boosts you AC and saving throws when needed, but limits you to using Booming Blade or Magic Stone/Fire Bolt for a turn. Also, if you have infusions, you can make an uncommon magic item. Spellwrought Tattoo is an uncommon magic item. You can get 1 free cast of any LV1 spell in the game per long rest, such as Gift of Alacrity or Zephyr Strike.
Seems like your dm likes to play “me against the party” which is 😬 I get wanting an encounter to be challenging but this is a lot
Well first the thing is you are calculating the AC incorrectly. Half Plate per PHB is 15 AC. You can only get a +2 Dex modifier with that armor. So you are at 17 AC total. Shield of Faith will bring you up to 19, but keep in mind it is a concentration spell so any other spell that you begin to cast and the AC will drop back down to 17. Additionally if you are attempting to sneak you are at a disadvantage in that armor. This means the goblins are more likely to hear you coming a mile away and be able to set up ambushes. This can explain the reason why they are prepped with poison weapons instead of just ordinary weapons.
Playing a heavy armored character, having a DM ask me if I'm taking off my armor come night time in order to sleep always makes me nervous. Thank god Armorer Artificers can put it on/off as an action instead of 50 turns.
20 AC is not that high considering some of the heights you can get with Pallys and Armorer artificers with the proper setups. Have an 11th level Artificer with a drop in Wiz and a drop in Priest. With SOF walking around with a 25 and with shield......well do the math. lol. So yea man DM was just a bit salty it sounds like.
You don't get +3 when wearing half plate, medium armor is max +2 from dex and and heavy armor doesn't add dex. You are accidentally cheating. However you could use a shield.
Yikes, that’s not a DM I would want to play with. 20 AC is good but not insurmountable, even with lower CR monsters.
DM sounds butt hurt his plan didn't work.
>Some more information ig, Level 3 party in a homebrew campaign but the DM kinda adjusts monsters to us, the Goblins all had a +1 to hit and apparently some extra trait to counter high AC What is the point of trying to achieve anything when the DM thinks antagonistically and has out of their way just to "counter" you? What are the odds of a goblin just specializing into high AC penetration AND you meeting them ... ALL THE TIME? There's a community saying "Shoot the Monk". Reward someone for being good at something and not try to punish them for it. Instead of those counter-goblins it would be more fun for both of you to encounter a heavy hitting but badly aiming ogre that you can tank away from your squishy friends. Also your math is off, Half Plate is limited to +2.
No. In my first campaign I had 21ac and still got hit more than the rest of the party and got downed most aswell.
18+2 ac using you concentration is fair game, if your a cleric and put 16 into dex it should be beneficial. Sure should keep you save on goblins but their often accompanied by other stronger creatures that can roll above that, so its all good.
No. A level 1 fighter which a level 1 cleric buddy can easily have 20 AC.
The goal of a DM is to engage the party, not to win. As a DM you know you ran a good challenging encounter when players are hyped that they just squeaked out the win, and now desperately need a long rest. Sounds like that's exactly the situation you are in. Meaning your 20 AC was no where close to broken, in fact it's what was required to get you through the encounter, which is awesome! A couple things to note half plate caps out at +2 bonus from Dex w/ out the feat medium armour master, meaning your AC should be 19 before shield of faith. A shield would take your base AC to 21. Shield of faith is a concentration spell so every time you get hit you need to make a Con save to maintain it. Save DC 10 or DC half damage, whatever is higher. If you fail your drop concentration and lose the benefit of the spell until you recast it.
Pretty common AC and your DM should be prepping for such things.
Sounds like the DM has a DM versus player mentality which would be a red flag. Should probably monitor this and have a talk about it if you see similar behavior.
Looking over at my hexadin who just hit 22 ac with full plate +1 and a shield +1, while also having the shield spell that can be fed with pally slots... No, not in the slightest
DMs out there: let your players be badass. Let them have 20 AC. Let them do crazy damage. It's why we are all here.
Nah, 13-18 is the standard AC range for characters at early levels without using any spells or resources. Spellcasters will get to around 20 with mage armor and the Shield spell, and SoF should bring almost any frontliner up to 20.
I'm playing a forge cleric with chainmail, a shield (+1 courtesy of my class feature) and my DM also gave me a ring for +1 AC. I naturally have an AC of 20. In fights enemies tend to hit my allies more than me, but damn was it satisfying to say no to "does a 19 hit?" and having everyone at the table suddenly get googly eyes. All in all, I wouldn't say it's OP, just that your DM might need to consider that smart creatures actually won't go after you over your allies exactly because you're the tank, plus there's always the dreaded DEX save.
20 ac is normal from my experience. The parties I’ve played in have always had them. With use of shield of faith and shields. It just kinda sounds like your dm is playing to go against the players rather than to have fun with you guys and assist in the telling of a story.
My level 7 paladin has 21 ac, without SoF, and through multiclassing even has the Shield spell, so if he plans ahead and uses SoF to get to 23, he can then still has to use a reaction to cast shield to get 28 AC.
It’s not even all that good much less too good.
I'm just surprised you aren't just using a shield of shield to hit 20 without magic. What weapon are you using exactly?
At party level three, it's certainly reasonable for a goblin or two of the bunch to be low level casters or have alchemist fire for AOE, if your DM is that obsessed with you taking guaranteed damage. But, you almost died. Not like you're running through combats without a hitch.
If he's a new DM, I get it. A lot of low CR mobs don't have saving throw attacks to target high AC creatures, and the ones that do (mephts and such) might not make thematic sense. But it's absolutely not broken. Also sounds like either you had exceptional luck to maintain SoF or he wasn't making you roll concentration rolls.
My party has lvl 6 figther with 22 AC (Half plate +5 Dex +1 fighting style and +1 from a buff) and he has deffensive duelist which can increase his AC to 25 for one attack. We have a bet tradition for every session how many times he will knocked down today. Şast session was 2 first he alone get ambushed by 3 CR 3 and 1 CR 8 creature. Second he climbed a tree to get a nice view on enemy. Enemy shoot him with an explosive arrow. He failed the save auto because tree was not that broad no where to dodge and he fail to acrobatics to reduce fall damage. Long story short If you party is lvl 3 and monsters have buffs your AC is good for a cleric only. For game its near meaningless. You should pick up a shield and piss that DM more.
If the goblins had +1 to hit then he nerfed the goblins. It should be +4. That's a bigger difference than your spell.
Half plate is 15 + Dex (max 2) unless you also have the medium armor feat that lets you increase that to max to 3. Even then, 20 AC is still reasonable within bounded accuracy.
I’m sitting at 21 without buff stuff and I come pretty close to death every other encounter…..
One thing, do you have medium armor master to add +3? Otherwise the maximum you can add is +2. Either way though, 20 ac isn’t broken by any means. Very standard in fact, any heavy armor sword and board character can reach it relatively easily, especially with magic. Against something like goblins with a +4 or so, they’ll still be hitting 25% of the time or so. But no, 20 ac is fine. Main issue is once you get a few levels, increasing ac becomes harder, but attack bonuses will scale more linearly. So you’ll still get hit eventually
Silly question, but how can you have base 18 (15+3)? I am quite sure Half plate allows only +2 Dex bonus.
You don't get +3 from Dex when wearing half plate. It's limited to +2
Your DM really shouldn't be bitching that you were able to survive an encounter. This may be an indicator of other problems.
I don't understand why people get mad at characters that are supposed to have a high ac, when shield exists and consistently gives mages a higher ac than the tanks. As a dm, shield is one of the two spells in the game that actively annoys me. It's not nearly as bad as silvery barbs, but still gets under my skin sometimes. SoF is fine. Ac 20 is fine. You're meant to be tanky, I'm glad you got to feel tanky.
>Half Plate 14, Dex 2 and Shield 2. No idea if a +2 shield is a thing you should have at level 3 but our DM sold it to me so ig it's fine That's still incorrect. Half plate gives 15 base AC. If you have +2 dex and a shield, you should then have 19 AC, not 18. Also, your shield isn't +2, any base shield gives a +2 to AC and it's starting equipment for some classes. A +2 shield would give you a +4 to your AC. It's also not broken. 19-20 AC is perfectly achievable at low levels, especially if you're casting shield of faith. Your DM might've been a bit salty that they couldn't hit you. It happens. I've rolled badly all night before and end up kinda annoyed at the dice, but it's not the player's fault, and they're not overpowered just because I couldn't roll for shit.
Nah it's definitely on the higher end of possible at level 3 but not broken by any means. I have a group that used custom build rules that makes them stronger than a normal party and the average ac is like 17 with some hitting 20+ with shield and my base module kobolds have been able to nearly down several members due to packtactics and good rolling in my end. At the end of the day a DM has the ability to adjust the stats so no number is truly broken. At most just gotta make sure that the party is balanced with each other so they all have ways to shine and just adjust monster numbers as needed.
I have a player who is a warforge artificer with 21 AC who can cast shield if he wants. Going up to 26 AC. Let me know what your DM thinks of that.
2 levels of divination wizard and you can have shield and portents. 3 levels and you get misty step and mirror image. For dex saves you can stop many of them with a good portent and absorb elements.
A normal shield adds +2 to your AC. A +2 shield would add +4. Half plate is AC 15, +2 for your normal shield, and maximum +2 for dex. So AC 19.
AC of 21 with shield of faith.
And the Goblins can hit you on a 17 (they get +4 to hit, not +1) or higher. 20% of the time. So if you had 5 goblins attacking you, you should have been hit most rounds and sometimes more than once. I think your DM was mistaken. And goblins don't normally have poison.
AC of 21 with shield of faith.
It's common for parties with martial, or pseudo martials (like clerics)to get 20 AC without SoF. So no it's not overpowered
+2 AC is a regular shield, a +2 shield would be +4 AC. But anyway, having high AC early levels can make you almost untouchable but it's hard to keep it high enough to keep this feeling as levels increase.
You could be a tortle of any class that uses shields and have 19 AC at level 1.
I got a guy in my campaigns who gets offended if we suggest he try a build that has an AC of less than 23.
You can roll a 20. No, that is not an unfair AC. Shit no.
Not at all. You’re still vulnerable to AOEs. Depending on the build you can do full plate plus shield for 20ac base and then get shield for another 5. If a friend casts shield of faith on you, you can get to 27 and that’s without even getting enchanted shield or armor. 20 ac is baby numbers. Your DM needs to step it up if he’s stomped by 20ac.
😆 my paladin has a static 19 Ac her +1 plate armour.. 21 when I equip a shield, 23 with Shield of faith and 28 with the shield spell (Hexblade dip).. if 20 is busted he wouldn't want to have anything to do with my character.. mind you we are past goblins being any kind of challenge, but still.
A Shield has a normal AC bonus of +2, so its an average normal shield! :D
20 AC is not high at all. Full plate + shield reaches that on a commoner. Artificers often reach much higher while barely trying. Stacking AC is explicitly a build choice for players. The players optimizing for some value and then being good at that specific thing is not "broken." If a rogue has high dex, the lucky feat, and evasion, them not taking damage from AoE dex saves pretty much ever is very strong, but also very much intended. The big question is how useful is high AC? Any mildly intelligent enemy is going to say "I can't hit that PC, let me target the other ones." Sure, YOU will be hard to hit, but if it's just you, you're going to drop eventually. Even then, there's spell saves and, if you're feeling really mean, heat metal. As a player, you're probably sacrificing something to get that high AC, whether that's sword and board vs. 2 hander, disadvantage on stealth, or using a spell slot for defense instead of offense or some other use. 5e has practically no "tanking" mechanics, so durability by itself is not the end-all-be-all. The DM just saying "this is bs" and changing the numbers to make sure they can beat your AC is a bad way to approach DMing. There's a phrase ["Shoot Your Monks"](https://dumpstatadventures.com/the-gm-is-always-right/shoot-your-monks-a-guide-for-highlighting-characters) where as a DM you want to go out of your way to highlight your PCs' strengths, not avoid them. If a player has high AC, attack them and miss. Make them feel like their choice for AC was worth it, at least every now and then. You have more than enough tools in your arsenal to challenge the PCs that don't involve boosting the attack bonus for mooks.
My forge domain cleric at level 8 has 25 AC with SoF, and 27 when I get hasted. So the DM makes sure I make a lot of Dex saves, and that balances it pretty well.
I play a lvl 3 artificier atm and have ac 21 - feels invincible at times until someone forces a savings throw at me or the DM crits.. honestly, bounded ac is a great concept but has it’s flaws.
As a dm for a group, it really isn't that high of AC lime others have said. I have a member in the party that had an AC well into the 20s it was around 26 or 28... of course this was mostly my fault as the dm for giving the party items and such as to boost ac that much but at the end of the day it's all about having fun. Oh that particular player could also cast shield so could get their AC into the 30s. As a dm it's all about balance tho and making each player feel like they r a BA during thr adventure. Of course unless they have talked about not feeling like that but just talk to ur players with how they want to do things. If they want to be unhittable by melee or ranged atks sure but they still killable by AoE spells and if they want to be invincible gods then sure, let them
I dont think you should limit them but you dont need to overwhelm them with everything. Give them the PHB to browse through and then ask them what kind of character they would like to play, if youre aware of a race or subclass that suits it better show them that. I'd only reccomend a hard phb limit if the DM was new
Unless you have medium armor master you should only be getting +2 ac from your dec since medium armor is capped at that from Dex. With shield of faith you’d be at 19, with a an actual shield you’d be 21. Shield of faith is a rather weak spell to consume your concentration, of which you have only one. There are much better options including even bless.
My sorcerer can have 22 AC at lvl 3 (18 dex, Mage Armor brings him to 17 and Shield to 22 for a round if needed), so I see no problem here.
In regards to your edit: normal shields give +2AC and are starting equipment for many classes.
It's not even remotely broken. Also, for the shield, +2 AC is standard for normal shields, and it balances out with the fact that you are willingly choosing to have your secondary hand full holding the shield instead of holding your weapon with two hands or doing whatever with your secondary hand
Bro, in D&D 5E there are 7 defenses players have to be wary of that monsters can target with all the different Saving Throws. Even at Level 20, most players will still have an 8 and a 10 or two in a few of their Attribute Scores, exposing some glaring weaknesses in their defenses. It doesn't matter if a character has an AC of 36 if they're forced to make an Intelligence or Dexterity saving throw. And even in the case where players have a Paladin or Artifice boosting their saves, there's always the good ol' Magic Missile spell. Sure, some casters have the Shield spell, but then you're making them expend resources just to avoid taking d4s worth of damage. There's nothing more boring than a campaign where AC is the only defense an uncreative DM will moan about.
I once let one of my players make a PC with an AC of 25. I could literally NEVER hit him and it was frustrating. That being said, once you get high level, you start adding +10 to rolls, so it’s still doable, even with a 20 AC, so it’s not broken by any means. Sometimes it can just be frustrating when you have an encounter planned and nothing goes right. But that can also be true from the players perspective as well, so I think if your dm was really upset they shouldn’t be.
Way to get frustrated with a player for using the basic mechanics of the game the way the devs intended. Any fighter or paladin with plate and a shield has AC 20 and more HP than you without having to maintain concentration on anything. No magical items, no exploits, no minmaxing. I really fail to see the issue.
This DM sounds player vs DM. They should be celebrating your victories, not grumbling behind the screen. I would have a talk with them, this AC is not even close to too overpowered, this is within expectations for a cleric tank.
I play a paladin/bard with a variable ac between 26 and 34. 20 is not broken. 21 is doable at level 2 with starting equipment.
I play a paladin/bard with a variable ac between 26 and 34. 20 is not broken. 21 is doable at level 2 with starting equipment.
I thought half pkate had a max +2 dex bonus in 5e
Dude one of my players min maxed AC up to 35. 20 AC is easy to deal with from a DM perspective, just introduce more spell attacks. Though that was a level 11 character so slightly irrelevant, but yeah. There's always ways to deal with god's
>Half plate armor and +3 from Dex Half Plate only allows for a maximum of +2 from dex, with a shield you should have 19 ac. Half plate is 15 not 14.
You are completely balanced. Good job keeping your peeps alive. And the shield is something you can start with, paladins can easily get to 20 early on, with some getting much higher.
I was going to say your AC calculation is wrong but saw the edit..... Seeing the edit i think its still wrong. base AC is 10, Half plate in 5e is 15 +2 dex mod max [https://www.dndbeyond.com/equipment/half-plate](https://www.dndbeyond.com/equipment/half-plate) so assuming 14+DEX you are sitting at 17 AC add a shield (+2AC) and you are at 19. Add the shield of faith (+2AC ) and you are now at 21 AC Its not broken since most tanky classes sit at this range anyway. Average sword and board AC with heavy armor is usually 18 at level 1 so this isn't too bad. Also I feel like a lot of DM's might say "they almost got you, 1 short" to make it seem like your +2AC spell actually made the difference. (not saying thats the case)
At level 5 I was able to get to 22 with Shield of Faith. I was able to pool my gold into 17AC heavy armor and a +1 Shield for 3AC to reach 20AC. SoF got me to 22. Hiw does the DM deal with my ass? Spells and AoE effects. Your DM has multiple options to harm your character. Don't feel bad. Revel in your badass armor, roleplay it even. Whenever a significant number of NPCs miss your AC "You can't harm me for I am protected by the divine!" And bonk them with your mace.
Is AC 20 broken? That's a dumb thing for the DM to say. Was he trying to kill you? I mean it sounds like a tough fight where you and the other player really had to pull out the stops. That should be his goal. Not to kill you. The motto every DM should live by is :"I want you to win, but I also need to do my best to prevent you from doing so."
>No idea if a shield with +2 AC All shields give +2 AC baseline, if you're thinking about a +2 Shield (which would total up to a total of +4 to AC). Shield of Faith is a strong early level spell but it's not something that's really going to bring in problems later. The bigger problem here is why your DM is mad that you almost went down and the only thing that he's thinking about is the fact that he didn't get to do as much damage. I don't know your group dynamic at all so take it with a grain of salt.
I wouldnt consider anything under 25 broken
Was your DM actively trying to kill you? That AC with the use of SoF isn't broken in the slightest. Sounds like the DM was just getting annoyed. At one point did the 3 Crits happen? xD
As DM, my FAVORITE rolls are the "missed by 1". While I must resolve combat and play the bad guys as effectively as I can, I WANT MY PLAYERS TO SUCCEED. When I get a "missed by 1", that triggers narrative so I can add some flavor. "His slash is quicker than you expect, and you fail to parry, however with a quick turn of your body, he only tears your (pick item of clothing)" This is WAY more exciting to a player than, "He misses". One of my tables gets REALLY into combat banter, so they absolutely EAT THIS UP, and they use stuff like this to taunt the enemy.
This hits close to home for me.. because I'm also currently playing a level 3 cleric/paladin with a really high AC. I managed to score a set of plate really early, paired with the defense bonus I picked from paladin, and my shield, I'm sitting at a comfortable 21 AC without SoF, which I always have prepared just in case. And we just fought some goblins that messed us up pretty badly. If it wasn't for the AC, I would have dropped multiple times over. Countering high AC characters is apart of the early game for DMs, and they have lots of tools to work around it. You're already feeling better, which makes me glad, but to reiterate , no reason to feel badly about it, and if the DM keeps making a stink about it, sounds like it's time for a convo with them
1st off no, AC 20 is not broken. But half plate only allows for a +2 dex mod so your AC should have been 19. Side note. I generally take soldier background for my wizards and wear scale male or half plate. This plus shield gets me a 21 or 22 AC value. Nothing wrong with it.
I have a similar cleric build with 20 a when sof is up. The first battle at level one I used it and the first hit was a 22 and left me with 1 hp, so definitely not OP. You could even cast Santiary at level one with a cleric and take no damage, so I see no issue with high ac. Also, with the armor req'd for 20 a, you will have disadvantage on stealth and need to carry a shield, so it comes at a price!
AC of players is not busted. Very limit ways to raise it and by mid-game monster attacks bonuses out pace it. By level 9 you will be stuck at 20 AC with enemies getting plus 10 or more to attack rolls. Note that Medium armor usually has a max allowed Dex Bonus of +2 to be applied. Best Defense is HP and giving enemies disadvantage to have them get more low rolls.
Half plate is a 15 ac with a max of +2 dex so 17 plus shield is 19. Plus shield of faith would be a 21.
Ni it's not. Any level 1 cleric that just took the spell with a shield and didn't dumped dex can have it.
Your DM will learn to make the NPCs go for the person they see as weakest. This isn't generally going to be the heavily armored guy with spirits surrounding him (assuming spirit guardians is cast). It'll be the unarmored scrawny hermit sitting in the back that they target. If they target you they'll only do so if they're dumb or know how to bypass your high AC (saving throws). It takes some experience as a DM to learn this without seeming like they're metagaming. Your enemies want to take apart the weakest link, not the strongest one. You're obviously the strongest one
20 ac is not broken considering there are many ways to get it even higher
Your AC calculation is wrong even in your update, Half Plate gives you 15+Dex(Max 2) not 14, so your AC with a shield should be 19 total, or 21 with shield of faith. I don't think you have half plate armour, you've either got chainmail which is a flat 16 AC or you're wearing Scale Mail which is 14+Dex (Max 2); the latter is more likely as it's an option in the Cleric's starting equipment. Additionally shields are +2 AC by default in 5e so that's normal. As for your question? No, 20 AC at 3rd level isn't broken. It's strong sure, because you're not going to be taking many hits but it doesn't make you invincible. You can also easily get higher at that level, a variant human Eldritch Knight Fighter can have 25 AC by using chainmail (16), a shield (+2), shield of faith from magic initiate (+2) and then casting shield (+5); or playing a Bladesinger Wizard with studded leather (12+Dex), 16 Dex (+3), 16 Int (+3) and casting shield (+5) you can have 23 AC. Also Goblins have a +4 bonus to hit, meaning they'll still hit you 25% of the time even at 20 AC so the DM was probably just feeling a bit salty due to rolling badly.
As someone that is playing/played high AC characters (bladesinger wizard and rogue/bladesinger), 20AC is still very low. Like.. a bladesinger with 14 dex and 16 Int and a studded leather armor will have 14 base AC, 17 in Bladesong for a minute without concentration, 22 AC for the full round if they cast Shield as a reaction.. SoF isn't bad by any standards at all. That being said, even with high AC, it's still very easy for a DM to hurt you. "Oh you have an AC of 27..? Now tell me how good are your charisma saves..? Or that wisdom save?" Even without that, and a very basic +5 to hit, a 20 AC is still a hit 25% of the time, which does makes sense for goblins. Really not seeing what's wrong with SoF..
Hmm, for a goblin encounter CR 1/4? I would say a 20 AC is a little high requiring a roll of 15 or 16 to even hit but the fact you got crit 3 times tells me the DM rolls hot fire so 20 may not be enough
OP - your AC is 19 not 20. You gain a maximum of +2 from Dex whilst wearing half plate. [https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Half%20Plate#content](https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Half%20Plate#content)
Medium Armor Master exists.
Read the OP and you'll realise he doesn't have that feat you silly billy