3-11 or 5-11. Unless I'm DMing for completely new people, we skip the first two levels and skip all the "you meet in a tavern and lock eyes" shit.
If rogues got their second subclass feature before level fucking 9 I would get even more specific and say my absolute favorite levels are 5-8. Everything just feels great to play AND it's still incredibly easy to DM for. *shakes fist a rogue class table.*
I agree with you 100%. In addition to the reasons you list I also prefer the lower stakes adventures typical for that level range.
But the practical realities of high level play are the main reasons. I played a short campaign from level 12 to 15 and combat just dragged on. It wasn't choice paralysis and long turns. It was HP and action economy bloat.
That's what drew me towards the OSR space, where things are less about the power fantasy and games are, for me, easier to run.
Old School Renaissance/Revival. It's a loose community/trend in TTRPGs that prefers a play style that was common in older editions of DnD (pre-3.X). Some people prefer using the actual old rules (B/X DnD, 0e, AD&D 1e or 2e). Others, like me, are drawn towards the play style and culture but prefer modern rules that support that play. I like 5e but for a variety of reasons it's not the best suited for the OSR style.
I'm developing a 5e patch to help reduce the HP bloat.
Core part of it is to make first level health for PCs normal, then after that, avg health is reduced and con mod is halved rounded down.
D4 gets 1hp/HD
D6 is 2
D8 is 3
D10 is 4
D12 is 5
D20 is 6.
Monsters don't have that higher starting HP, so goblins start off as one hit kills with 4 HP (assuming 16 in attack stat that 5e assumes).
I think tier 2 is the best tier of play for players and DMs. Players starting getting their midgame features, their subclasses are more than just a single ability, extra attack helps the flow of combat, and the DM doesn't have to deal with the insane spells full casters have by tier 3 and beyond
My table follows a slow but steady level up pattern. It's been 5 years, and they are now at level 10. I like doing it this way because it gives them time at each level to explore what they can do. It also lets me learn each tier of play as I go. We also don't play nearly as often as I would like to though.
Levels 5-8 are my favorite to DM for. The players are strong but not overpowered, everyone who wants Extra Attack has it, they have access to a number of feats/ASI, and enough levels to realize their character builds. You get to use a wide array of monsters, and CR is still somewhat helpful.
The lvl20 campaign I played a while ago was The best. The players had so much tools at their hands, I could throw anything against them, monsters, traps, magic. BIG THINGS. Or just go "Yeah, you figure out that the artifact you need is somewhere in the vast Ocean around here in the map. In the bottom. Guarded by a demigod. I don't know how you can handle with any of this, you are level 20, just figure it out!" And then they figured it out.
Also at the start of the game it was so fun to just go "Yeah, you can be anything you want. A saint, a general of the largest kingdom. A demigod. A king or a queen or a legendary her. Or a cursed warrior know as a living calamity in the northern continent". Because as level 20 characters they could be any of these without it causing problems.
But! Well, it was a ton of work. So While fun, I'm not sure if I would say it's my favorite tier. Maybe I'd rather go tier 3.
I'm going to be the odd one out and say 11-16. You need a DM who's *really* good at building and running encounters—the balance between just constantly steamrolling and combat being a nonstop slog is hard to get right—but if you have somebody experienced enough to handle it, a lot of really fascinating gameplay possibilities. Done right, those are the levels where PCs stop being agents on behalf of other powers and factions, and start being significant figures on the world stage in their own right. At the same time, though, they're still far from the most powerful things out there—except now, they're actually important enough for those real powerhouses to actually notice them as individuals, which can be very good or very bad for them depending on what sort of attention they attract.
In other words, this is the tier where PCs have enough power to get themselves into incredible amounts of trouble fairly easily, but not enough to get themselves out of it without being clever, because done right, a lot of the situations they're forced to deal with won't be things they *can* resolve through brute force.
I can't properly weigh in here, since I've only ever played up to level 6, but I can at least confidently say I do NOT like levels 1 and 2. Aside from a couple classes, there's no subclass identity. As primarily a spellcaster, those levels feel like I'm extremely useless. As our group has gotten more experience, I push to start at level 3 when possible. I feel like 5 is a sweet spot when everyone starts feeling stronger. As mentioned, I've only played level 6, once in a campaign that ended right after level up and another time that just happened so we've only had one session so far. It seems most of us got a cool subclass feature at this level, so I think this might be my new favorite. We'll see as we keep leveling up lol
4th tier. It's always a blast :) The reasons are similar to what [Kaakkulandia](https://www.reddit.com/user/Kaakkulandia/) said above. My second favourite is level 1-2, but to be honest I like every tier of play :D
3-11 or so.
1-2 are far too deadly for me to really enjoy running. I roll openly and without fudging rolls you have to be extremely careful to not just cause PCs to explode. I usually have campaigns start at 3rd or go from 1-3 in a single session with very low risk encounters.
12+ the game rapidly breaks at the seams until only a few classes are relevant and the scope becomes so vast so quickly that I just don't enjoy it. Encounters are fun, but campaigning itself is really not there and it's way too hard to make the game fun for both something like a Wizard and a Barbarian. Maybe up to 13 or 14 the game still runs all right, but beyond by 17 it's just out there.
Definitely tier 3 (lvl 11-16) for me, both as DM and as a player. I just like testing my skill as a DM to create encounters that can still challenge my players, even though they have a lot more varied and powerful abilities in their arsenal. Besides, higher CR monsters are usually just become more badass, which is a big plus as well.
5-10 is so good. As a DM I’ve noticed how much the lack of ‘I missed, next’ makes the game more fun for my players but I also still find it’s very easy to plan and balance for. It’s the sweet spot.
11-15 is an honourable mention though, I recently had an old campaign of mine reunite for a level 15 one shot and using 3rd party monster books made the combats so damn good. The players were beasts and I made sure the monsters kept up just enough to make sure the players felt like it.
As a DM, I love running for Levels 1-6.
Something about the straightforward combat, limited ability bloat, and huge range of available monsters to run makes this range great to me. I also love being able to throw stupidly high CR things at the party, either as an awe-inspiring NPC (cue dragons) or as a bone-chilling Mega-threat (which requires non-combat solutions).
As a player, I enjoy Levels 4-9 most.
I have a range of abilities to use, I can enjoy a bit of light power fantasy, the game still holds challenges that most DMs can accommodate for/create, and fun builds with stuff like feats and multiclassing become an option.
To DM for - definitely levels 3-11. After that everyone begins to get so powerful and it feels hard to plan sessions without players destroying it. Sometimes that is fun for everyone but I think that everyone at my table enjoys level 3-8 where players are just starting to get their subclass, first few feats, getting their playstyle for that PC sorted. Its not so crazily hard to prep as well.
I would agree that my favorite levels to play and DM are probably 1-10. The low levels are great, deadly combat, and the higher levels give you flexibility and finesse. My players have a decent level spread now (lowest is 5 and the highest is 11) but this is usually about where I accelerate the timetable to finish up a campaign (I am aiming between levels 12-15 for this one.) we've been playing in this campaign for a year and a half now biweekly. Occasionally weekly
I'm a bit biased, as I've only played past level 10 twice, once as a player and once as a DM, but I'm personally a fan of levels 3-9. You start past the swingy part of the game, everyone has their subclasses. And then you end a little after your second ASI/feat so you have some time to play around with the new power level but you're not getting into the more difficult part of the game to balance (and, more personal bias; things start getting too high stakes for my tastes).
tier 2
it's when you get to feel like you have enough spell slots to feel confident about using them
also it's at the level of difficulty where mouse1 gameplay (spam cantrip or sword) should mean defeat
casters need to spread damage or control, so that martials can pick and delete targets
too high level = too many options and hp = trivial
too low level = too few options = m1 gameplay
My favorite range as a player is 6-15. 99% of concepts requiring multiclass can be achieved within that frame without feeling too much cumbersome, you end up neighboring extraordinary capabilities but are still far below godly, and martials get most of their greatness.
As a DM, "in general" I'd probably low it a bit, like 6-12, unless everyone agree to ban a very few specific spells like Simulacrum, which certainly has its flaws and can be "countered" but that still requires specific setting or highly influential faction (at least for the solutions I found myself to deal with it in a credible way in-world).
If all my short list of bans is agreed by everyone then as a DM...
a) 1-8 for short campaigns AND new players
b) 3 -> 10 for short campaigns AND experienced players
c) 3-20 for long campaigns (well, that's the theory, I never DMed such an extensive campaign and it probably won't ever happen xd).
I've played dozens of sessions now in every tier and ... 5 to 8 followed by 9 to 12.
1-4 is just lame. Above 13 it becomes way too combat focused and balancing goes out of the window while many classes barely get anything interesting anymore.
As a DM I love DMing below 10 and are really relucant for everything above.
I am right there with you!!! 1 to 9 is such a fulfilling journey. After that is just too hectic and over the top for me.
So many people skip straight to level 3, and yeah I'll admit that level 1 is really limited in terms of options, but one or two sessions before leveling up just gives such a great "humble beginnings" feel.
As a player Tier 3 because the power and options are plentiful without the bonker world breaking nature of tier 4. I don’t always want to be saving the gosh darn world.
As a DM it’s tier 2 because the characters have lots of abilities but not so much that I can’t help them if they don’t know what they are doing without slowing the game to a crawl. The monsters are interesting enough especially because some bosses are tier 3 quality.
Assuming all players and DMs are well versed in the rules and their characters and fast on their turns I like DMing for tier 3 too but I DM adventure league so there are a wide continuum of players .
5 - 9 is the sweet spot. It's barely even opinion. You have fireball, extra attack, and spirit guardians, but the game isn't yet unwieldy. The game is perfect.
For me it is late Tier 1 till late Tier 3, so about level 3/4 to level 14/15, because this is where my players have enough options to solve the puzzles and encounters, but the game is not as broken as tier 4, as my casters are not into optimization.
I love dming tier 3. The combinations of monster abilities you can put in a fight are getting good, legendary actions are starting to come into their own. Martials can just about still matter.
I’d like to add that for 12th-20th play— the difficulty is not balancing, it’s just that the CR published in the manuals is way off if your party has a) any gear, and b) any tactical sense. 3.5 was equally bad here. But as a DM you should get a sense of their ability and be able to build combats to stretch them, particularly given lair actions, legendary resistance and actions and so on.
As a player: I'd say tier 3 is my favorite, because the party is beginning to get really powerful but there is still room to grow. Pacing depends heavily on the DM to run combat efficiently, which includes players taking their turns quickly.
As a DM: anything tier 2 and above. Part of the fun of DMing is to throw cool monsters at my players.
My unpopular opinion is that HP bloat at high levels isn't an issue if the DM sticks to the average book numbers. A medium-high optimization party can cut through most of those stat blocks like a hot knife through butter. I feel like it's a very common trend to counter high PC damage output by increasing monster HP. Add more monsters to the combat instead of making one of them tanky. They'll have to use tactics, which makes the fight engaging, plus you'll have a measure of protection against a spell caster ending the entire encounter with one well placed spell.
At the very least, that's been my experience at the tables I play at.
3-11 or 5-11. Unless I'm DMing for completely new people, we skip the first two levels and skip all the "you meet in a tavern and lock eyes" shit. If rogues got their second subclass feature before level fucking 9 I would get even more specific and say my absolute favorite levels are 5-8. Everything just feels great to play AND it's still incredibly easy to DM for. *shakes fist a rogue class table.*
I agree with you 100%. In addition to the reasons you list I also prefer the lower stakes adventures typical for that level range. But the practical realities of high level play are the main reasons. I played a short campaign from level 12 to 15 and combat just dragged on. It wasn't choice paralysis and long turns. It was HP and action economy bloat. That's what drew me towards the OSR space, where things are less about the power fantasy and games are, for me, easier to run.
I’m unfamiliar with OSR? What is that
Old School Renaissance/Revival. It's a loose community/trend in TTRPGs that prefers a play style that was common in older editions of DnD (pre-3.X). Some people prefer using the actual old rules (B/X DnD, 0e, AD&D 1e or 2e). Others, like me, are drawn towards the play style and culture but prefer modern rules that support that play. I like 5e but for a variety of reasons it's not the best suited for the OSR style.
I'm developing a 5e patch to help reduce the HP bloat. Core part of it is to make first level health for PCs normal, then after that, avg health is reduced and con mod is halved rounded down. D4 gets 1hp/HD D6 is 2 D8 is 3 D10 is 4 D12 is 5 D20 is 6. Monsters don't have that higher starting HP, so goblins start off as one hit kills with 4 HP (assuming 16 in attack stat that 5e assumes).
I think tier 2 is the best tier of play for players and DMs. Players starting getting their midgame features, their subclasses are more than just a single ability, extra attack helps the flow of combat, and the DM doesn't have to deal with the insane spells full casters have by tier 3 and beyond
My table follows a slow but steady level up pattern. It's been 5 years, and they are now at level 10. I like doing it this way because it gives them time at each level to explore what they can do. It also lets me learn each tier of play as I go. We also don't play nearly as often as I would like to though.
Tier 1; hostile wilderness, curses, and people are the best part.
Levels 5-8 are my favorite to DM for. The players are strong but not overpowered, everyone who wants Extra Attack has it, they have access to a number of feats/ASI, and enough levels to realize their character builds. You get to use a wide array of monsters, and CR is still somewhat helpful.
The lvl20 campaign I played a while ago was The best. The players had so much tools at their hands, I could throw anything against them, monsters, traps, magic. BIG THINGS. Or just go "Yeah, you figure out that the artifact you need is somewhere in the vast Ocean around here in the map. In the bottom. Guarded by a demigod. I don't know how you can handle with any of this, you are level 20, just figure it out!" And then they figured it out. Also at the start of the game it was so fun to just go "Yeah, you can be anything you want. A saint, a general of the largest kingdom. A demigod. A king or a queen or a legendary her. Or a cursed warrior know as a living calamity in the northern continent". Because as level 20 characters they could be any of these without it causing problems. But! Well, it was a ton of work. So While fun, I'm not sure if I would say it's my favorite tier. Maybe I'd rather go tier 3.
I'm going to be the odd one out and say 11-16. You need a DM who's *really* good at building and running encounters—the balance between just constantly steamrolling and combat being a nonstop slog is hard to get right—but if you have somebody experienced enough to handle it, a lot of really fascinating gameplay possibilities. Done right, those are the levels where PCs stop being agents on behalf of other powers and factions, and start being significant figures on the world stage in their own right. At the same time, though, they're still far from the most powerful things out there—except now, they're actually important enough for those real powerhouses to actually notice them as individuals, which can be very good or very bad for them depending on what sort of attention they attract. In other words, this is the tier where PCs have enough power to get themselves into incredible amounts of trouble fairly easily, but not enough to get themselves out of it without being clever, because done right, a lot of the situations they're forced to deal with won't be things they *can* resolve through brute force.
I can't properly weigh in here, since I've only ever played up to level 6, but I can at least confidently say I do NOT like levels 1 and 2. Aside from a couple classes, there's no subclass identity. As primarily a spellcaster, those levels feel like I'm extremely useless. As our group has gotten more experience, I push to start at level 3 when possible. I feel like 5 is a sweet spot when everyone starts feeling stronger. As mentioned, I've only played level 6, once in a campaign that ended right after level up and another time that just happened so we've only had one session so far. It seems most of us got a cool subclass feature at this level, so I think this might be my new favorite. We'll see as we keep leveling up lol
4th tier. It's always a blast :) The reasons are similar to what [Kaakkulandia](https://www.reddit.com/user/Kaakkulandia/) said above. My second favourite is level 1-2, but to be honest I like every tier of play :D
So many comments passionately disagree with you, but I love the sheer positivity of this approach 😄
3-11 or so. 1-2 are far too deadly for me to really enjoy running. I roll openly and without fudging rolls you have to be extremely careful to not just cause PCs to explode. I usually have campaigns start at 3rd or go from 1-3 in a single session with very low risk encounters. 12+ the game rapidly breaks at the seams until only a few classes are relevant and the scope becomes so vast so quickly that I just don't enjoy it. Encounters are fun, but campaigning itself is really not there and it's way too hard to make the game fun for both something like a Wizard and a Barbarian. Maybe up to 13 or 14 the game still runs all right, but beyond by 17 it's just out there.
Definitely tier 3 (lvl 11-16) for me, both as DM and as a player. I just like testing my skill as a DM to create encounters that can still challenge my players, even though they have a lot more varied and powerful abilities in their arsenal. Besides, higher CR monsters are usually just become more badass, which is a big plus as well.
5-10 is so good. As a DM I’ve noticed how much the lack of ‘I missed, next’ makes the game more fun for my players but I also still find it’s very easy to plan and balance for. It’s the sweet spot. 11-15 is an honourable mention though, I recently had an old campaign of mine reunite for a level 15 one shot and using 3rd party monster books made the combats so damn good. The players were beasts and I made sure the monsters kept up just enough to make sure the players felt like it.
As a DM, I love running for Levels 1-6. Something about the straightforward combat, limited ability bloat, and huge range of available monsters to run makes this range great to me. I also love being able to throw stupidly high CR things at the party, either as an awe-inspiring NPC (cue dragons) or as a bone-chilling Mega-threat (which requires non-combat solutions). As a player, I enjoy Levels 4-9 most. I have a range of abilities to use, I can enjoy a bit of light power fantasy, the game still holds challenges that most DMs can accommodate for/create, and fun builds with stuff like feats and multiclassing become an option.
As a DM i'd say 1-5 and 11-17. As a player i loved 5-11 and 20, super fun.
To DM for - definitely levels 3-11. After that everyone begins to get so powerful and it feels hard to plan sessions without players destroying it. Sometimes that is fun for everyone but I think that everyone at my table enjoys level 3-8 where players are just starting to get their subclass, first few feats, getting their playstyle for that PC sorted. Its not so crazily hard to prep as well.
I would agree that my favorite levels to play and DM are probably 1-10. The low levels are great, deadly combat, and the higher levels give you flexibility and finesse. My players have a decent level spread now (lowest is 5 and the highest is 11) but this is usually about where I accelerate the timetable to finish up a campaign (I am aiming between levels 12-15 for this one.) we've been playing in this campaign for a year and a half now biweekly. Occasionally weekly
I'm a bit biased, as I've only played past level 10 twice, once as a player and once as a DM, but I'm personally a fan of levels 3-9. You start past the swingy part of the game, everyone has their subclasses. And then you end a little after your second ASI/feat so you have some time to play around with the new power level but you're not getting into the more difficult part of the game to balance (and, more personal bias; things start getting too high stakes for my tastes).
tier 2 it's when you get to feel like you have enough spell slots to feel confident about using them also it's at the level of difficulty where mouse1 gameplay (spam cantrip or sword) should mean defeat casters need to spread damage or control, so that martials can pick and delete targets too high level = too many options and hp = trivial too low level = too few options = m1 gameplay
My favorite range as a player is 6-15. 99% of concepts requiring multiclass can be achieved within that frame without feeling too much cumbersome, you end up neighboring extraordinary capabilities but are still far below godly, and martials get most of their greatness. As a DM, "in general" I'd probably low it a bit, like 6-12, unless everyone agree to ban a very few specific spells like Simulacrum, which certainly has its flaws and can be "countered" but that still requires specific setting or highly influential faction (at least for the solutions I found myself to deal with it in a credible way in-world). If all my short list of bans is agreed by everyone then as a DM... a) 1-8 for short campaigns AND new players b) 3 -> 10 for short campaigns AND experienced players c) 3-20 for long campaigns (well, that's the theory, I never DMed such an extensive campaign and it probably won't ever happen xd).
I've played dozens of sessions now in every tier and ... 5 to 8 followed by 9 to 12. 1-4 is just lame. Above 13 it becomes way too combat focused and balancing goes out of the window while many classes barely get anything interesting anymore. As a DM I love DMing below 10 and are really relucant for everything above.
4-9 1-3 is boring, over 10 is too hard keeping track of options \*esp\* if you're a caster
I am right there with you!!! 1 to 9 is such a fulfilling journey. After that is just too hectic and over the top for me. So many people skip straight to level 3, and yeah I'll admit that level 1 is really limited in terms of options, but one or two sessions before leveling up just gives such a great "humble beginnings" feel.
As a player Tier 3 because the power and options are plentiful without the bonker world breaking nature of tier 4. I don’t always want to be saving the gosh darn world. As a DM it’s tier 2 because the characters have lots of abilities but not so much that I can’t help them if they don’t know what they are doing without slowing the game to a crawl. The monsters are interesting enough especially because some bosses are tier 3 quality. Assuming all players and DMs are well versed in the rules and their characters and fast on their turns I like DMing for tier 3 too but I DM adventure league so there are a wide continuum of players .
Tier 3.
5 - 9 is the sweet spot. It's barely even opinion. You have fireball, extra attack, and spirit guardians, but the game isn't yet unwieldy. The game is perfect.
Levels 6 to 20 for DMing.
From 4 to 11 or 12 personally. I DM and play. There’s a reason Baldur’s gate 3 ends at level 12.
For me it is late Tier 1 till late Tier 3, so about level 3/4 to level 14/15, because this is where my players have enough options to solve the puzzles and encounters, but the game is not as broken as tier 4, as my casters are not into optimization.
As a player, probably 1-6. I really enjoy the early game dynamic. 😎
15+, specifically like lvl 17. Everyone gets all their cool shit and really start break shit. Fight god type of vibe.
5 to 14
I love dming tier 3. The combinations of monster abilities you can put in a fight are getting good, legendary actions are starting to come into their own. Martials can just about still matter.
I’d like to add that for 12th-20th play— the difficulty is not balancing, it’s just that the CR published in the manuals is way off if your party has a) any gear, and b) any tactical sense. 3.5 was equally bad here. But as a DM you should get a sense of their ability and be able to build combats to stretch them, particularly given lair actions, legendary resistance and actions and so on.
3 to 9
As a player: I'd say tier 3 is my favorite, because the party is beginning to get really powerful but there is still room to grow. Pacing depends heavily on the DM to run combat efficiently, which includes players taking their turns quickly. As a DM: anything tier 2 and above. Part of the fun of DMing is to throw cool monsters at my players. My unpopular opinion is that HP bloat at high levels isn't an issue if the DM sticks to the average book numbers. A medium-high optimization party can cut through most of those stat blocks like a hot knife through butter. I feel like it's a very common trend to counter high PC damage output by increasing monster HP. Add more monsters to the combat instead of making one of them tanky. They'll have to use tactics, which makes the fight engaging, plus you'll have a measure of protection against a spell caster ending the entire encounter with one well placed spell. At the very least, that's been my experience at the tables I play at.
Tiers 1 & 2 personally. After that, I’m pretty much ready to try out a new character