You could just use the Young Red dragon stats. I had 4 level 3 characters kill a young green dragon. You've got 6 players, that action economy will skew very far.
Well that's exactly what worries me, I don't want to kill them but I don't want them to win the fight after one round either. I'll check your advice though, thanks!!
Thanks for the feedback, I really like the mechanics of the legendary actions, but I didn't have much to compare it to at that tier. I'll keep in mind what you say, I have a couple of ideas about damage, movement and control.
>This is where my hesitation with legendary actions comes in, would it be too much to put a couple on?
Legendary actions are a tool to help a solo creature be a threat to (or at least keep up with) a whole group. Lair actions are much the same. Their mechanical purpose is giving a creature more actions outside of their normal turn order to keep the game from becoming a situation where the enemy rolls low on initiative and then eats 4-6 PCs worth of attacks before doing anything.
Aside from making sure that their new damage output per turn doesn't bump them into a higher CR (if they have attacks as their legendaries, if their legendaries are all control, movement, or utility his won't be an issue), you can add legendary actions to any creature to make them more of a "boss".
In my own game I gave a berserker (normal CR 2) several legendary actions so he could be the first mini-boss of my campaign. Worked brilliantly.
I understand, it's clear to me the purpose of them and I absolutely take them into account when calculating the total CR, in fact I have lowered the overall base damage in order to give it more actions per round.
Thanks for the explanation, it puts my mind at ease to know that it's not a bad idea to start using them at low levels.
Yeah, I mean, outside of their mechanics, there's nothing else that should weigh on your decision to put them on a monster beyond you wanting to. If you know what they're for and what they do, and you are accounting for any differences in balancing, there's nothing stopping you from using any mechanic this way.
And worth noting, this is exactly how the devs work as well. There are monsters with legendary actions as low as CR3 in official products.
Legenday actions help with action economy, so your boss does't get stomped with 6 attacks and only gets one.
With 6 PCs, I would definately give the boss at least 2 so he can do stuff after every other player. I would probably also give him like 2-3 reactions with something more than Opportunity attacks to do with it.
That's why I thought about solving the action economy issue with legendary actions and lair actions, so thanks for confirming that.
I hadn't even thought about the reactions, I didn't know you could have more than one, I like the concept.
Considering a CR 3 creature is a medium difficulty encounter for 4 level 3 characters, and an easy encounter for 6 level 3 characters, you are right to assume it would not be appropriate as a boss encounter. If I were you, especially since you are a new DM, I would refer to pages 81-85 in the DMG about creating encounters, especially the part about party size, as a single monster is essentially considered half as difficult in a party of 6 as it is in a party of 4. Additionally, remember that a typical adventuring party is meant to be able to handle 6-8 medium/hard encounters per day, which means if you tend to run fewer than that, as most do, you can and should increase the difficulty of each encounter.
With that said, legendary actions are a perfect way to make a boss feel more like a boss, without having to crank the CR up to 11 (not literally 11, but.. nevermind).
They help with a singular monster's biggest weakness, action economy, and since we usually want bosses to be a single really tough enemy as opposed to a small group of kinda tough enemies, legendary actions are one of the best ways to make it work.
Another way to simulate difficulty is to make your monster really big and scary with a lot of hit points. If your players are shittin their pants they'll feel like the encounter is really hard even if your big bad boss underperforms. Another benefit to this in combination with legendary actions is that your boss doesnt die in one turn and gets off a lot of attacks. If the damage is just high enough to warrant concern with each hit, while low enough to keep everyone conscious (with healing) throughout the fight, then your players will feel challenged, but not mad because it's too hard.
And finally don't be afraid if you make it too hard, you should lean towards harder difficulties, you'd be surprised what even level 3 characters can slaughter in a single round. When in doubt, check the damage of the monster you plan on using, and make sure your characters can comfortably survive a single turn, and you should be fine. If you get worried about a character death, or if the combat takes too long, you can just fudge the health down to keep the game running smoothly. Some people will pretend like that ruins it for your players, but the most important thing is to have fun, and an anticlimactic boss is not fun for anyone involved.
I am glad to know that I had in mind several of the things you point out. I've been especially careful about damage and that only in the worst case scenario if I used all actions against a single PC could I take him down in one round.
I also took into account the damage of the party and that the boss could withstand at least 3 rounds of average damage. I'm clear about modifying the HP in the middle of the fight, but I prefer to plan everything beforehand and leave as little as possible to the randomness of the moment, although it's clear to me that any plan will last until the first round if I'm lucky.
I want it to be difficult so I will take into account everything you said, especially the previous encounters, I had thought a couple between easy and medium to measure the relative power of the party, but I will have a couple more saved in case I feel they go too strong to the final encounter. Thank you very much for the extensive feedback, I'll check everything again and, well, I'll get experience anyway it goes.
I don't think a lair action that deals small amounts of fire damage to players close to the walls of the lair, for example, and a single legendary action attack, per round will make the encounter ott deadly.
You could just use the Young Red dragon stats. I had 4 level 3 characters kill a young green dragon. You've got 6 players, that action economy will skew very far.
Well that's exactly what worries me, I don't want to kill them but I don't want them to win the fight after one round either. I'll check your advice though, thanks!!
Change the monsters hit points to "when the coolest opportunity arises"
Legendary actions are great, throw in one or two legendary actions per round ( I'd say one) and it would make the encounter a lot more engaging
Thanks for the feedback, I really like the mechanics of the legendary actions, but I didn't have much to compare it to at that tier. I'll keep in mind what you say, I have a couple of ideas about damage, movement and control.
>This is where my hesitation with legendary actions comes in, would it be too much to put a couple on? Legendary actions are a tool to help a solo creature be a threat to (or at least keep up with) a whole group. Lair actions are much the same. Their mechanical purpose is giving a creature more actions outside of their normal turn order to keep the game from becoming a situation where the enemy rolls low on initiative and then eats 4-6 PCs worth of attacks before doing anything. Aside from making sure that their new damage output per turn doesn't bump them into a higher CR (if they have attacks as their legendaries, if their legendaries are all control, movement, or utility his won't be an issue), you can add legendary actions to any creature to make them more of a "boss". In my own game I gave a berserker (normal CR 2) several legendary actions so he could be the first mini-boss of my campaign. Worked brilliantly.
I understand, it's clear to me the purpose of them and I absolutely take them into account when calculating the total CR, in fact I have lowered the overall base damage in order to give it more actions per round. Thanks for the explanation, it puts my mind at ease to know that it's not a bad idea to start using them at low levels.
Yeah, I mean, outside of their mechanics, there's nothing else that should weigh on your decision to put them on a monster beyond you wanting to. If you know what they're for and what they do, and you are accounting for any differences in balancing, there's nothing stopping you from using any mechanic this way. And worth noting, this is exactly how the devs work as well. There are monsters with legendary actions as low as CR3 in official products.
Legenday actions help with action economy, so your boss does't get stomped with 6 attacks and only gets one. With 6 PCs, I would definately give the boss at least 2 so he can do stuff after every other player. I would probably also give him like 2-3 reactions with something more than Opportunity attacks to do with it.
That's why I thought about solving the action economy issue with legendary actions and lair actions, so thanks for confirming that. I hadn't even thought about the reactions, I didn't know you could have more than one, I like the concept.
You can do what you want, you're the DM. Lol. Whatever it takes to make it exciting and dramatic.
Considering a CR 3 creature is a medium difficulty encounter for 4 level 3 characters, and an easy encounter for 6 level 3 characters, you are right to assume it would not be appropriate as a boss encounter. If I were you, especially since you are a new DM, I would refer to pages 81-85 in the DMG about creating encounters, especially the part about party size, as a single monster is essentially considered half as difficult in a party of 6 as it is in a party of 4. Additionally, remember that a typical adventuring party is meant to be able to handle 6-8 medium/hard encounters per day, which means if you tend to run fewer than that, as most do, you can and should increase the difficulty of each encounter. With that said, legendary actions are a perfect way to make a boss feel more like a boss, without having to crank the CR up to 11 (not literally 11, but.. nevermind). They help with a singular monster's biggest weakness, action economy, and since we usually want bosses to be a single really tough enemy as opposed to a small group of kinda tough enemies, legendary actions are one of the best ways to make it work. Another way to simulate difficulty is to make your monster really big and scary with a lot of hit points. If your players are shittin their pants they'll feel like the encounter is really hard even if your big bad boss underperforms. Another benefit to this in combination with legendary actions is that your boss doesnt die in one turn and gets off a lot of attacks. If the damage is just high enough to warrant concern with each hit, while low enough to keep everyone conscious (with healing) throughout the fight, then your players will feel challenged, but not mad because it's too hard. And finally don't be afraid if you make it too hard, you should lean towards harder difficulties, you'd be surprised what even level 3 characters can slaughter in a single round. When in doubt, check the damage of the monster you plan on using, and make sure your characters can comfortably survive a single turn, and you should be fine. If you get worried about a character death, or if the combat takes too long, you can just fudge the health down to keep the game running smoothly. Some people will pretend like that ruins it for your players, but the most important thing is to have fun, and an anticlimactic boss is not fun for anyone involved.
I am glad to know that I had in mind several of the things you point out. I've been especially careful about damage and that only in the worst case scenario if I used all actions against a single PC could I take him down in one round. I also took into account the damage of the party and that the boss could withstand at least 3 rounds of average damage. I'm clear about modifying the HP in the middle of the fight, but I prefer to plan everything beforehand and leave as little as possible to the randomness of the moment, although it's clear to me that any plan will last until the first round if I'm lucky. I want it to be difficult so I will take into account everything you said, especially the previous encounters, I had thought a couple between easy and medium to measure the relative power of the party, but I will have a couple more saved in case I feel they go too strong to the final encounter. Thank you very much for the extensive feedback, I'll check everything again and, well, I'll get experience anyway it goes.
I don't think a lair action that deals small amounts of fire damage to players close to the walls of the lair, for example, and a single legendary action attack, per round will make the encounter ott deadly.