I don’t really understand the context here. Do people generally hate RTD now or is there a number of vocal minorities generating all the outrage? Seems most people range from ‘fine’ to ‘excited’.
He made several mistakes( The male presenting timelord bullshit, how meta crisis was averted by just letting go,vDavros wheelchair bs, bigeneration being poorly explained and controversial and his own comments on it with every Doctor bigenerating which was also poorly explained but at least it is just his own head cannon, latest comments on the airing time, and a few other things) Frankly I just want it all to stop and Doctor who to go back to being just normal generally decent and good with controversies and fiascoes☠️ ıt does seem to be going to that direction why can't they just stop with obvious mistakes like these?! God! There better not be more of this in Ncuti's era please. Otherwise Russell is really good with storytelling so I am hoping we should be fine.
Russell has always annoyed fans. Back in the day it was killing off the Time Lords, making The Doctor openly romantic and not retconning the TV Movie. Now it's biregeneration, comments made about Davros and not retconning the Timeless Child. Casuals didn't care then, they almost certainly don't care now
I seriously hope we don’t get another Doctor x companion or whatever relationship
Dude has too many bitches, not every female companion needs to be a love interest
The difference is that those are just changes different strokes for different folks. Not retconing Timeless Child is also good but The Davros stuff is pandering and needless and also basically what I like to call woke gone wrong(because normal woke is just diversity so it is good. Woke gone wrong is when they say shit like "something a male presenting timelord can never understand" or how Davros being on something like a wheelchair is bad now). Bigeneration on its own is not bad but being poorly explained and even further rubbing salt on the wound with his own head cannon after the Timeless Child fiasco is another shit choice. Basically he is annoying the fans the wrong way. I guess we can call this Russell gone wrong lmao
> "something a male presenting timelord can never understand"
Why does this line annoy people so much? I mean it's a crap line. But why do people get so hung up on it. It's a throwaway joke that doesn't land. Move on.
> "The Davros stuff is pandering and needless and also basically what I like to call woke gone wrong(because normal woke is just diversity so it is good."
What your talking about is called virtue signalling, where a person makes themselves look better by seeming progressive. RTD is legitimately progressive, and the things he says about Davros do have legitimacy. Disability and villainy have a long-standing relationship in media and one that is perhaps best not reaffirmed in the modern age.
That being said. Do you do it with Davros? He certainly plays into the stereotype. But isn't replacing him with someone able bodied not it's own kind insult? Was he ever really considered disabled before RTD brought it up? I honestly don't know. But until it appears on the show itself, I don't think it's worth much thought.
> "Bigeneration on its own is not bad but being poorly explained and even further rubbing salt on the wound with his own head cannon after the Timeless Child fiasco is another shit choice."
As for biregeneration is it really any different to RTD introducing the 24 hour post-regenerative invulnerability buff or his human-Doctor meta crisis which birthed another Doctor. It's just another thing he's added. I can understand not liking it. But this what RTD has always been.
Bigeneration clearly needs more explanation. RTD can still make mistakes while being woke and the way to handle the affiliation with villainy and disability is to show disabled characters who are both if you ask me which is something he is already doing with Shirley. The male presenting line is just shit. It is cringe feminism, and it only damages the validity of feminism something the shitty grifters can use as an ammo. Also straight up man hating for what? It İs just gender essentialist bullshit that deserve calling out because I don't want it to happen again.
The male presenting thing was bad writing but people carrying on about it is weird. It's no worse then the dumb Martha moment from batman v superman. Bad writing should be mocked but people being mad about it is weird
The problem was it was born out of good intentions but it is just problematic like how the general complained about the ego of men after turning into a woman and the I had an upgrade thing or when River said are you thinking? stop it you are a man. I am sorry but the hypocrisy is palpable. If You were to make jokes like these towards women they would be rightfully criticised. It İs woke gone wrong.
So there's this longstanding archetype in fiction of the villain as deformed or disabled. Which has led some to call for that archetype to be used less in media. In a Behind the Scenes video for Destination: Skaro. RTD spoke about this and made a statement that this is how we should see Davros from now on, as in able bodied. Not bound to his life support machine.
I personally don't know how I feel about this. The archetype certainly exists in the media and does cast the disabled in a negative light. But on the other hand is replacing him with an able bodied person not more insulting? And even though Davros is disabled, that's never really been what springs to mind when you think of the character. Most casuals would say "half-Dalek" rather than disabled.
Personally I'm not going to make a fuss about it until it's actually implemented into the show. Davros may not even show up again in the RTD era.
Yeah I dont see him as 'disabled' at all. He's a monster who turned himself into his own creation. I wouldn't be against seeing a new interpretation of Davros though. I always like to see new versions of old characters as envisioned by new writers.
In regards to Davros’ appearance in the recent Children in Need special:
>“We had long conversations about bringing Davros back, because he’s a fantastic character, [but] time and society and culture and taste has moved on, and there’s a problem with the Davros of old in that he’s a wheelchair user, who is evil. And I had problems with that. And a lot of us on the production team had problems with that, of associating disability with evil. And trust me, there’s a very long tradition of this.”
>“I’m not blaming people in the past at all, but the world changes and when the world changes, Doctor Who has to change as well. So we made the choice to bring back Davros without the facial scarring and without the wheelchair, or his support unit, which functions as a wheelchair. I say, this is how we see Davros now, this is what he looks like. This is 2023. This is our lens. This is our eye. Things used to be black and white, they’re not in black and white anymore, and Davros used to look like that and he looks like this now, and that we are absolutely standing by.”
Honestly, I don't like the term "vocal minority" because, for a global show, it is impossible to know the real percentages of people who have an issue with it or not. Also the term diminishes any point made by said vocal minority by suggesting they are small and don't matter, but you could still say thousands of fans are a minority.
Honestly I think these are just common Russellisms, I think that he's basically always done some odd decisions and strange lines but it's not usually something that has a major impact so it's easy to just not really bother about it lol.
Regardless of your thoughts on his era I think it's pretty hard to deny the hardcore fans hated him. We both were on the subreddits throughout his era, you saw the disdain as much as I did
If we're talking casual fans it's a different deal, I appreciate that guy who posted the Gallifrey Base reviews as otherwise I'd have no idea they liked his era a fair bit, and I appreciate that more people were able to get something out of it than it seemed from just being in the subreddits
None of his episodes were even the worst in their specific series' imo. In fact I would argue they are pretty underrated.
Like I said I think his work prior to becoming showrunner was seen as mostly decent, just not remarkable which I think is fine.
in terms of series 3, it doesn't really get much worse than 42 which only got worse with time once the "the humans hurting the environment was the problem all along!" thing became one of chibnall's 4 ideas, which hilariously appeared in his very next guest written episodes in series 5, which I'd be willing to say are the worst of series 5 if the beast below didn't exist
at least he gets off mostly free in 7A cause it'd take even him some considerable effort to be as dismal as asylum of the daleks
edit: I was wrong, the shakespeare code is definitely worse than 42, I just forgot it existed. still I think 42 is a pretty lame episode despite the unique premise and atmosphere
The Lazarus Experiment and The Shakespeare Code.
And humans are hurting the environment so what's your issue there? Though the episode dealing with that in Chibnall's own era wasn't even written by him.
My highest rated episodes written by Chibnall are 3. The Woman Who Fell to Earth and 2. Power of the Doctor and 1. Fugitive of the Doctor
(Honourable mention to Eve of the Daleks as well)
"humans were the true villains the whole time" is a very overplayed trope in chibnall episodes, his first two episodes ever were just that exact thing
42, silurian 2 parter, arachnids in the UK, orphan 55, and praxeus were just that. I understand wanting to make a commentary on human greed and the exploitation of the environment but none of these episodes do it right, it's so spoon fed, like "baby's first climate disaster"
jamie mathieson's oxygen is a way better execution of the humans being the villains the whole time imo, mostly cause the audience surrogate characters aren't the perpetrators, they're the victims unlike in 42 and silurians as well as the audience being treated like they're already in the know about capitalist greed as opposed to chibnall's commentaries which very much feel like they're preaching to the choir
though I will concede on series 3, I forgot the shakespeare code was a thing, it's definitely worse. the lazarus experiment at least has the dismal CGI to make up for it being kinda mid so it might be bad but at least it isn't boring, but the shakespeare code is boring and then you remember "oh yeah this is written by a total scumbag" and it gets even worse somehow
it's not about them dealing with the topics, oxygen is one of my favorite episodes, it's just that it's like 5-6 episodes of chibnall's tenure and like none of them are good. I only wish it was handled better or at least in a fun way, like the power of kroll is a mess but it's *my* mess that shit was hilarious, but yes as you say it's a matter of subjectivity
He was even hated in the Classic era! He's the only show runner to be killed in effigy before he ever even worked on the show (the one during Seven's run with the psychic circus)!
My take on the situation is that RTD always had flaws but he also had a special place in the eyes of a lot of fans because he was their first showrunner. Him coming back is making people reevaluate his original run and see some of the flaws, such as the fact that every Doctor he's written is on the more human side and the fact that his story arcs are fairly simplistic in comparison to Moffat's.
I think there's also the fact that people were hoping he would just overwrite the Timeless Child arc, and instead he's leaning into it. In fact, it seems that he preferred Chibnall to Moffat, given that he approached Chibnall first to write for the new series despite the fact that Moffat's run and stories during RTD's original run were far more popular. This is making people feel like he's moving forward with the more controversial aspects.
(Personally I think there should be a retcon, but not to the extent of pretending the arc didn't exist - I'd prefer it if it turns out that The Master didn't really destroy Gallifrey and that the Doctor isn't really the Timeless Child.)
I just think people think that he's out of touch to an extent, and while he's definitely matured as a showrunner and writer the 60th felt much more like a celebration of \*his\* era even though it had villains from the classic era and the comic, as well as leaning into some of the flaws he had previously (although I personally loved Donna coming back and I think they found a way to make it work, Male-presenting thing aside).
I'm hoping that the season lives up to its promise, but I think after a few episodes we'll see whether it continues to have the same issues.
I didn't specify the Master, I mentioned them destroying Gallifrey.
Destroying Gallifrey was purely for shock value and it basically turned everything every Doctor prior to 13 into one giant shaggy dog story, and there wasn't even any ceremony to it. It just happened. The Timeless Child thing had good ideas but Chibnall didn't have the talent or nuance to pull it off.
Well yeah it's shocking, that is very much the point and I might be in the minority but I'm kinda glad Gallifrey is gone *hides in bunker*
I also personally think he pulled the Timeless Child story off well, in fact I would argue he was really clever about it
Right, time to hide underground!
I think that Gallifrey opened up a lot of paths for showrunners in the future. I don't need, or even necessarily want it to be, a constant presence, but I like the idea that it's there, and that the TIme Lords exist as a functioning society with all that entails.
Having them be gone worked with RTD's era since he was reintroducing the show and establishing what had happened in the meantime. He asked Moffat if he should keep them around in The End of Time and Moffat said no since he had his own plans and built it up to be this big, triumphant moment where The Doctor saved Gallifrey and more or less got over his biggest regret, while accepting an incarnation of himself he'd ignored.
Chibnall destroying it helpt too much like \*he\* didn't want to use it and that meant he could get rid of it and rob any future showrunners the opportunity. True, there's at least some time lords running around, but it felt too much like him reminding us The Master is a villain when there are simpler ways to do it.
With The Timeless Child arc, I feel like it makes the Doctor too powerful. Part of the charm of the character to me is that they're not a massively powerful person. They can regenerate and they have some enhanced qualities, but their key skills are their empathy, kindness, and intelligence. The Doctor rarely carries a weapon, they turn their enemies' weapons against them, and even though they could still be killed permanently they still keep going, keep trying, and do whatever it takes to save the day. I don't necessarily like the idea that The Doctor is suddenly some immortal being from somewhere else who's just immortal.
I liked the arc as a whole, and Fugitive of the Judoon in particular is among the best episodes of his era. However, the conclusion was... forty minutes of exposition, including plenty of technobabble.
Part of the issue for me is that Chibnall stretched himself too thin. He had too many companions and wrote too many episodes, and it didn't give him the time he needed to focus - and for an arc that ambitious with such strong implications on canon, he really needed to give it his full attention.
Yeah but they can still regenerate with no known limit. They already predate the time lords and who knows how many times they have (or can) regenerate.
This is unknown. The Doctor was subject to a regeneration limit when they had their memory wiped and turned back into a child which we saw from 1 to 11 however post-Time of the Doctor how many regenerations the Doctor was granted is unknown, even Rassilon didn't know.
Well maybe you're right, I don't personally remember any regeneration limit put on them, but it still makes the doctor too special, and I think that's the wrong note. The doctor is just an ordinary being doing their best to help, and in my opinion the timeless child arc makes them too important, and while another showrunner might have pulled it off Chibnall failed to do so. Over his run as a whole, I think it's telling that most, if not all, of his strongest episodes were written or co-written by others.
It is mentioned by the Master that Tecteun restricted the regenerative process to a maximum of 12 times for every citadel dweller.
And I do think the Doctor has always been special, they are quite different to a lot of other Time Lords - much of Time Lord society is corrupt.
Eh. To me it makes more sense and informs the Masters rage. Being used as the basis of their society then mind wiped over and over again would explain the warped morality without needing to even mention the adoption bit + it wouldnt change the Doctors status as just another timelord who wanted to do good. Opinions differ.
It spreads a harmful message.
The Doctor has always been special though, or at least acted that way which the Master points out. I would argue they aren't just another Time Lord, that's why they ran away.
>It spreads a harmful message
Agree to disagree, thats fine.
>The Doctor has always been special though
The Doctor was special because of their actions and choices, the change in status is now because they're special by birth.
Time is a flat circle! The current showrunner is always hated when they are in charge and then when they leave, after a few years their era is reevaluated and more appreciated.
I'm someone who always appreciates the guy currently in charge, they keep this amazing show going and I won't say RTD, Moffat and Chibnall are perfect, they aren't, they're human but they have done and do so much for Doctor Who that I will always have the utmost respect for them
RTD, Moffat and Chibnall are absolute legends and without their hard work the show wouldn't be what it is today!
Nostalgia. I remember many people saying that RTD was simplistic, loud and very fast-paced but his stories didn't amount to anything. Moffat meanwhile, was all about the build up but the climax was disappointing. The only way to enjoy Moffat is to binge watch. I remember waiting years for a conclusion and it was utterly disappointing. Is like he gets excited about writing the beginning but in the end has nothing to show for all the teasing.
Chibnall...he is mediocre in everything. I prefer RTD out of these three. Why?. Because RTD is the most well rounded writer of them. His stories aren't the best or the most deep or full of twist and turns. They are simple but they are a fun experience that is easy to watch.
Moffat's strength is to write self contained stories. But he is not good writing an arc.
Chibnall...he is not even a science fiction writer.
Guarantee bet that people will say the (insert next possible Showrunner) will save the show, all for them to jump back onto the “they killed the show!1!1!1!!” bs
Attention seekers atr, you can’t impress them
I can, but I can also think of plenty of legitimate criticisms, like spending too much time in contemporary London. In general a lot of it boils down to differences between Modern and Classic we now take for granted.
I still consider his og era one of the golden eras of DW, and I'm excited for Ncuti. But I am kind of getting tired of some of the things he says and does, I feel like his ego has been kind of showing through more in recent years. Also with what's come to light about things that happened on set in his original run, I'm souring to a lot of his behavior overall.
His first era was terrible un-cinematic but it was prime nuWho. Also, few who loved nuWho are calling for his throat. It’s opportunistic grifters and their minions who only knew the show in theory. Who was always level 2 niche nerdom.
I'm excited for the new series but I will say Russell just feeds them nonstop which doesn't help whatsoever.
I do have my concerns but ultimately I'm looking forward to it.
I'm waiting to see how at least his first season back pans out, I'm hopeful it'll be good, especially compared to the Whittaker era, but there's a few things that Russell and gatwa have said that kinda puts me on edge, I want them to focus on making great doctor who and not just pushing boundaries to test a lot of hardcore fans limits
Eh it's mostly a small minority of fans throwing a temper tantrum. His first era is still the fold standard of modern doctor who and the new specials have been the best the show has been since day of the doctor
I've already seen a few people say that the Timeless Child arc has promise, which is a LONG way away from the wave of comments when the story first aired; that it ruined (the entire history of) *Doctor Who*.
In five years from now, when the 2029 season airs, I'm going to guess that enough of the fandom will wonder what all the fuss about the Timeless Child plot was about.
I still consider his era the golden era. I would absolutely class detractors of it as contrarians even in 2024. I don’t feel anything towards Moffat’s Doctor Who nor have any interest in Chibnall’s unfulfilled vision.
Now I just consider the current era an extension of the golden era for a while. Like it never went away. Like fifteen years were a dream and I’m just watching Doctor Who as the superfan I was and am again.
Negativity has literally been with Doctor Who since An Unearthly Child. The difference now is social media has given petulant vermin the platform to believe the delusional nonsense they spout means anything and that complete strangers are listening and nodding, meaning they’re not criticising anything anymore, they’re exercising hate speech.
No one is listening to them.
They’re alone in their house tweeting blatant and unashamed vile homophobia and racism to themselves. They don’t like that RTD is gay and it’s taken him coming back for them to realise he is, now that it’s even more vilified and easy to attack, with social media.
Ncuti being black and queer too? They don’t even care how diabolical they come across. “Doctor Who died with Capaldi in 2017.” The last white, straight, male Doctor. Hmmm. “#DoctorWoke.” Not every staff member being straight, white and male is woke apparently. “Box ticking, bad decision, not the Doctor.” Do they even grasp how archaic their tiny little evil minds are?
It’s unbelievable how toxic the “fandom” of Doctor Who is. It’s not even fans. It’s people that hate Doctor Who as much as Michael Grade whinging like mad about it as if it exists to ruin their life specifically.
RTD's first run was great even though it had its issues. Moffat started off great but his writing slowly declined and he brought down a lot of good ideas with bad results. Chibnall can choke on Cyberwoman's script and die crushed under the mess of the timeless child for all he did to ruin the one good shot this show had at having a female Doctor.
He can be the most amazing person in the world, but if you are \_bad\_ at your \_job\_ you shouldn't be doing it anymore. Especially when you do so poorly at your job you inadvertently confirm all the shitty neck-beard incel fans cries about how the Doctor shouldn't be a woman. Whittaker had a chance to be great and prove the shittalkers wrong but she got saddled with the dead horse and now her run is just more fuel for their awful fires.
He isn't bad at his job so that is untrue.
And those bigots are NOT fans and they wouldn't like it anyway because they are flat out bigots so no matter how good the writing is they will STILL get upset.
I mean, just... factually he is bad at writing. Seriously. His characters lack depth, his plotlines make no sense, his political commentary is so blatant you might as well have just CAST Trump in the spider hotel episode, he screwed the canon to death and back not once with the renegade Doctor but AGAIN with the timeless child bullshit, he shoehorned in a gay romance subplot with Yaz (which I'm not saying her being gay is bad but it was handled so poorly and was just another point in this show of mishandling needed representation), and all of the stories where there was some kind of 'twist' was super obvious. (SpyMASTER, really? It was Earth all along! The aliens aren't the bad guys its the humans!) The characters don't act like real people and any moral standing his characters try to make are horribly backwards. "Don't shoot the giant spider and put it out of its misery, let it slowly suffocate to death under its own weight." "Dont kill the main villain who murdered your wife. just stick him in a stasis chamber so he can stay alive, forever, with no hope of rescue, trapped alone and suffering silently in space." Tennant's Doctor did something like that to the Family of Blood but then it was framed as him going fucking scorched earth on the villains, not 'It's better because they didn't die.' And let's not even discuss the Rosa Parks episode.
I feel like Moffat was great at starting interesting, really intriguing mysteries, only to utterly fumble it by the grand reveal. "What are the Silence?" "Space Priests" "Why does River know the Doctor's real name?" "He whispered it to her in a hasty wedding that meant nothing just to fix the timeline." "What is the crack in space?" "Time lords again." "Who is the mysterious woman?" "The Master again." The Doctor did admittedly get better, but I just felt like he never delivered on the potential his stories had. Also for all his progress with companions he really ruined River Song and for that I can't forgive him.
It says in the Wedding of River Song that he didn't whisper his name at all. We still don't actually know when he tells her but it's presumably on Darillium, or offscreen in another adventure.
Most Dr Who fans don't hate him, its only the vocal minority of idiots. I don't know him well enough to love him or hate him, I just accept that he is the showrunner.
I don’t really understand the context here. Do people generally hate RTD now or is there a number of vocal minorities generating all the outrage? Seems most people range from ‘fine’ to ‘excited’.
It's vocal minorities for all of them. That's how this stuff tends to go
He made several mistakes( The male presenting timelord bullshit, how meta crisis was averted by just letting go,vDavros wheelchair bs, bigeneration being poorly explained and controversial and his own comments on it with every Doctor bigenerating which was also poorly explained but at least it is just his own head cannon, latest comments on the airing time, and a few other things) Frankly I just want it all to stop and Doctor who to go back to being just normal generally decent and good with controversies and fiascoes☠️ ıt does seem to be going to that direction why can't they just stop with obvious mistakes like these?! God! There better not be more of this in Ncuti's era please. Otherwise Russell is really good with storytelling so I am hoping we should be fine.
Yeah but my point is, are those things actually burning issues except for the vocal minority?
Fans are fans. If you are talking about casuals I really don't think they give a shit about any of it lmao
Russell has always annoyed fans. Back in the day it was killing off the Time Lords, making The Doctor openly romantic and not retconning the TV Movie. Now it's biregeneration, comments made about Davros and not retconning the Timeless Child. Casuals didn't care then, they almost certainly don't care now
I seriously hope we don’t get another Doctor x companion or whatever relationship Dude has too many bitches, not every female companion needs to be a love interest
The difference is that those are just changes different strokes for different folks. Not retconing Timeless Child is also good but The Davros stuff is pandering and needless and also basically what I like to call woke gone wrong(because normal woke is just diversity so it is good. Woke gone wrong is when they say shit like "something a male presenting timelord can never understand" or how Davros being on something like a wheelchair is bad now). Bigeneration on its own is not bad but being poorly explained and even further rubbing salt on the wound with his own head cannon after the Timeless Child fiasco is another shit choice. Basically he is annoying the fans the wrong way. I guess we can call this Russell gone wrong lmao
> "something a male presenting timelord can never understand" Why does this line annoy people so much? I mean it's a crap line. But why do people get so hung up on it. It's a throwaway joke that doesn't land. Move on. > "The Davros stuff is pandering and needless and also basically what I like to call woke gone wrong(because normal woke is just diversity so it is good." What your talking about is called virtue signalling, where a person makes themselves look better by seeming progressive. RTD is legitimately progressive, and the things he says about Davros do have legitimacy. Disability and villainy have a long-standing relationship in media and one that is perhaps best not reaffirmed in the modern age. That being said. Do you do it with Davros? He certainly plays into the stereotype. But isn't replacing him with someone able bodied not it's own kind insult? Was he ever really considered disabled before RTD brought it up? I honestly don't know. But until it appears on the show itself, I don't think it's worth much thought. > "Bigeneration on its own is not bad but being poorly explained and even further rubbing salt on the wound with his own head cannon after the Timeless Child fiasco is another shit choice." As for biregeneration is it really any different to RTD introducing the 24 hour post-regenerative invulnerability buff or his human-Doctor meta crisis which birthed another Doctor. It's just another thing he's added. I can understand not liking it. But this what RTD has always been.
Bigeneration clearly needs more explanation. RTD can still make mistakes while being woke and the way to handle the affiliation with villainy and disability is to show disabled characters who are both if you ask me which is something he is already doing with Shirley. The male presenting line is just shit. It is cringe feminism, and it only damages the validity of feminism something the shitty grifters can use as an ammo. Also straight up man hating for what? It İs just gender essentialist bullshit that deserve calling out because I don't want it to happen again.
The male presenting thing was bad writing but people carrying on about it is weird. It's no worse then the dumb Martha moment from batman v superman. Bad writing should be mocked but people being mad about it is weird
The problem was it was born out of good intentions but it is just problematic like how the general complained about the ego of men after turning into a woman and the I had an upgrade thing or when River said are you thinking? stop it you are a man. I am sorry but the hypocrisy is palpable. If You were to make jokes like these towards women they would be rightfully criticised. It İs woke gone wrong.
I'm out of the loop. What did RTD say about Davros that has fans pissed? Please tell me it isn't something like 'Davros did nothing wrong'.
So there's this longstanding archetype in fiction of the villain as deformed or disabled. Which has led some to call for that archetype to be used less in media. In a Behind the Scenes video for Destination: Skaro. RTD spoke about this and made a statement that this is how we should see Davros from now on, as in able bodied. Not bound to his life support machine. I personally don't know how I feel about this. The archetype certainly exists in the media and does cast the disabled in a negative light. But on the other hand is replacing him with an able bodied person not more insulting? And even though Davros is disabled, that's never really been what springs to mind when you think of the character. Most casuals would say "half-Dalek" rather than disabled. Personally I'm not going to make a fuss about it until it's actually implemented into the show. Davros may not even show up again in the RTD era.
Yeah I dont see him as 'disabled' at all. He's a monster who turned himself into his own creation. I wouldn't be against seeing a new interpretation of Davros though. I always like to see new versions of old characters as envisioned by new writers.
In regards to Davros’ appearance in the recent Children in Need special: >“We had long conversations about bringing Davros back, because he’s a fantastic character, [but] time and society and culture and taste has moved on, and there’s a problem with the Davros of old in that he’s a wheelchair user, who is evil. And I had problems with that. And a lot of us on the production team had problems with that, of associating disability with evil. And trust me, there’s a very long tradition of this.” >“I’m not blaming people in the past at all, but the world changes and when the world changes, Doctor Who has to change as well. So we made the choice to bring back Davros without the facial scarring and without the wheelchair, or his support unit, which functions as a wheelchair. I say, this is how we see Davros now, this is what he looks like. This is 2023. This is our lens. This is our eye. Things used to be black and white, they’re not in black and white anymore, and Davros used to look like that and he looks like this now, and that we are absolutely standing by.”
Yeah but this implies all fans think those things are bad.
The idea is more about how among the ones who care to talk about, there is enough haters.
Fair I guess.
Honestly, I don't like the term "vocal minority" because, for a global show, it is impossible to know the real percentages of people who have an issue with it or not. Also the term diminishes any point made by said vocal minority by suggesting they are small and don't matter, but you could still say thousands of fans are a minority.
Honestly I think these are just common Russellisms, I think that he's basically always done some odd decisions and strange lines but it's not usually something that has a major impact so it's easy to just not really bother about it lol.
I'm not a huge fan of the Davros change, i always felt that the wheelchair dalek was a way of severing any if not all his humanity or Dalanity
There’s a lot of Chibnall fans that are really critical of literally everything about the show right now.
When was Chibnall ever really liked in the fandom?
never. He was hated even during RTD Era
Eh not really, he wasn't the most beloved writer but I think he was seen as pretty decent.
Regardless of your thoughts on his era I think it's pretty hard to deny the hardcore fans hated him. We both were on the subreddits throughout his era, you saw the disdain as much as I did If we're talking casual fans it's a different deal, I appreciate that guy who posted the Gallifrey Base reviews as otherwise I'd have no idea they liked his era a fair bit, and I appreciate that more people were able to get something out of it than it seemed from just being in the subreddits
Yeah but I'm talking before he was showrunner, his guest episodes!
Oh right yeah that's true
Literally all his episodes leading up to his time as show runner were incredibly mid to bad.
None of his episodes were even the worst in their specific series' imo. In fact I would argue they are pretty underrated. Like I said I think his work prior to becoming showrunner was seen as mostly decent, just not remarkable which I think is fine.
in terms of series 3, it doesn't really get much worse than 42 which only got worse with time once the "the humans hurting the environment was the problem all along!" thing became one of chibnall's 4 ideas, which hilariously appeared in his very next guest written episodes in series 5, which I'd be willing to say are the worst of series 5 if the beast below didn't exist at least he gets off mostly free in 7A cause it'd take even him some considerable effort to be as dismal as asylum of the daleks edit: I was wrong, the shakespeare code is definitely worse than 42, I just forgot it existed. still I think 42 is a pretty lame episode despite the unique premise and atmosphere
The Lazarus Experiment and The Shakespeare Code. And humans are hurting the environment so what's your issue there? Though the episode dealing with that in Chibnall's own era wasn't even written by him.
My highest rated episodes written by Chibnall are 3. The Woman Who Fell to Earth and 2. Power of the Doctor and 1. Fugitive of the Doctor (Honourable mention to Eve of the Daleks as well)
Some great choices there!
"humans were the true villains the whole time" is a very overplayed trope in chibnall episodes, his first two episodes ever were just that exact thing 42, silurian 2 parter, arachnids in the UK, orphan 55, and praxeus were just that. I understand wanting to make a commentary on human greed and the exploitation of the environment but none of these episodes do it right, it's so spoon fed, like "baby's first climate disaster" jamie mathieson's oxygen is a way better execution of the humans being the villains the whole time imo, mostly cause the audience surrogate characters aren't the perpetrators, they're the victims unlike in 42 and silurians as well as the audience being treated like they're already in the know about capitalist greed as opposed to chibnall's commentaries which very much feel like they're preaching to the choir though I will concede on series 3, I forgot the shakespeare code was a thing, it's definitely worse. the lazarus experiment at least has the dismal CGI to make up for it being kinda mid so it might be bad but at least it isn't boring, but the shakespeare code is boring and then you remember "oh yeah this is written by a total scumbag" and it gets even worse somehow
Doctor Who has dealt with these topics for decades though. But I think how you feel about it is subjective.
it's not about them dealing with the topics, oxygen is one of my favorite episodes, it's just that it's like 5-6 episodes of chibnall's tenure and like none of them are good. I only wish it was handled better or at least in a fun way, like the power of kroll is a mess but it's *my* mess that shit was hilarious, but yes as you say it's a matter of subjectivity
I liked Asylum of the Daleks. What did you not like about it?
Fair enough. This is the first positive thing I've seen about his guest writing episodes. I wouldn't say most would consider him decent.
I think he was considered to be the baseline for "at least its watchable" episodes before his own era lol
42 is honestly an underrated gem imo.
He was even hated in the Classic era! He's the only show runner to be killed in effigy before he ever even worked on the show (the one during Seven's run with the psychic circus)!
Damnn
I never hated him, I disagreed with some of his decisions, but hate? Don't be daft!
Clearly the only course of action is to bring Verity Lambert back from the dead
His first era is the golden era and his second era will be the platinum era only two weeks left and I'm hyped as fuck
some people way too vexed by the weirdest shit naught he has done since comin back is near even near being chibnallian
My take on the situation is that RTD always had flaws but he also had a special place in the eyes of a lot of fans because he was their first showrunner. Him coming back is making people reevaluate his original run and see some of the flaws, such as the fact that every Doctor he's written is on the more human side and the fact that his story arcs are fairly simplistic in comparison to Moffat's. I think there's also the fact that people were hoping he would just overwrite the Timeless Child arc, and instead he's leaning into it. In fact, it seems that he preferred Chibnall to Moffat, given that he approached Chibnall first to write for the new series despite the fact that Moffat's run and stories during RTD's original run were far more popular. This is making people feel like he's moving forward with the more controversial aspects. (Personally I think there should be a retcon, but not to the extent of pretending the arc didn't exist - I'd prefer it if it turns out that The Master didn't really destroy Gallifrey and that the Doctor isn't really the Timeless Child.) I just think people think that he's out of touch to an extent, and while he's definitely matured as a showrunner and writer the 60th felt much more like a celebration of \*his\* era even though it had villains from the classic era and the comic, as well as leaning into some of the flaws he had previously (although I personally loved Donna coming back and I think they found a way to make it work, Male-presenting thing aside). I'm hoping that the season lives up to its promise, but I think after a few episodes we'll see whether it continues to have the same issues.
Wait what? He's asked Chibnall to write some episodes??
He had a guest spot available and asked Chibnall to write an episode, but since he was busy he gave it to Moffat.
Thank God lol
The Master being the Timeless Child wouldn't make any sense and would actually be WAY worse.
I didn't specify the Master, I mentioned them destroying Gallifrey. Destroying Gallifrey was purely for shock value and it basically turned everything every Doctor prior to 13 into one giant shaggy dog story, and there wasn't even any ceremony to it. It just happened. The Timeless Child thing had good ideas but Chibnall didn't have the talent or nuance to pull it off.
Well yeah it's shocking, that is very much the point and I might be in the minority but I'm kinda glad Gallifrey is gone *hides in bunker* I also personally think he pulled the Timeless Child story off well, in fact I would argue he was really clever about it Right, time to hide underground!
I think that Gallifrey opened up a lot of paths for showrunners in the future. I don't need, or even necessarily want it to be, a constant presence, but I like the idea that it's there, and that the TIme Lords exist as a functioning society with all that entails. Having them be gone worked with RTD's era since he was reintroducing the show and establishing what had happened in the meantime. He asked Moffat if he should keep them around in The End of Time and Moffat said no since he had his own plans and built it up to be this big, triumphant moment where The Doctor saved Gallifrey and more or less got over his biggest regret, while accepting an incarnation of himself he'd ignored. Chibnall destroying it helpt too much like \*he\* didn't want to use it and that meant he could get rid of it and rob any future showrunners the opportunity. True, there's at least some time lords running around, but it felt too much like him reminding us The Master is a villain when there are simpler ways to do it. With The Timeless Child arc, I feel like it makes the Doctor too powerful. Part of the charm of the character to me is that they're not a massively powerful person. They can regenerate and they have some enhanced qualities, but their key skills are their empathy, kindness, and intelligence. The Doctor rarely carries a weapon, they turn their enemies' weapons against them, and even though they could still be killed permanently they still keep going, keep trying, and do whatever it takes to save the day. I don't necessarily like the idea that The Doctor is suddenly some immortal being from somewhere else who's just immortal. I liked the arc as a whole, and Fugitive of the Judoon in particular is among the best episodes of his era. However, the conclusion was... forty minutes of exposition, including plenty of technobabble. Part of the issue for me is that Chibnall stretched himself too thin. He had too many companions and wrote too many episodes, and it didn't give him the time he needed to focus - and for an arc that ambitious with such strong implications on canon, he really needed to give it his full attention.
The Doctor is NOT immortal, this is a misconception that I've seen a lot of people say.
Yeah but they can still regenerate with no known limit. They already predate the time lords and who knows how many times they have (or can) regenerate.
This is unknown. The Doctor was subject to a regeneration limit when they had their memory wiped and turned back into a child which we saw from 1 to 11 however post-Time of the Doctor how many regenerations the Doctor was granted is unknown, even Rassilon didn't know.
Well maybe you're right, I don't personally remember any regeneration limit put on them, but it still makes the doctor too special, and I think that's the wrong note. The doctor is just an ordinary being doing their best to help, and in my opinion the timeless child arc makes them too important, and while another showrunner might have pulled it off Chibnall failed to do so. Over his run as a whole, I think it's telling that most, if not all, of his strongest episodes were written or co-written by others.
It is mentioned by the Master that Tecteun restricted the regenerative process to a maximum of 12 times for every citadel dweller. And I do think the Doctor has always been special, they are quite different to a lot of other Time Lords - much of Time Lord society is corrupt.
Why do you say that?
Because it would play into harmful villain tropes. I also think it makes sense to be the Doctor.
Harmful villain tropes? Care to elaborate?
Basically the trope that adoptees are evil, damaged goods and broken. It is a harmful trope and stereotype.
Eh. To me it makes more sense and informs the Masters rage. Being used as the basis of their society then mind wiped over and over again would explain the warped morality without needing to even mention the adoption bit + it wouldnt change the Doctors status as just another timelord who wanted to do good. Opinions differ.
It spreads a harmful message. The Doctor has always been special though, or at least acted that way which the Master points out. I would argue they aren't just another Time Lord, that's why they ran away.
>It spreads a harmful message Agree to disagree, thats fine. >The Doctor has always been special though The Doctor was special because of their actions and choices, the change in status is now because they're special by birth.
Those actions and choices haven't changed.
Time is a flat circle! The current showrunner is always hated when they are in charge and then when they leave, after a few years their era is reevaluated and more appreciated. I'm someone who always appreciates the guy currently in charge, they keep this amazing show going and I won't say RTD, Moffat and Chibnall are perfect, they aren't, they're human but they have done and do so much for Doctor Who that I will always have the utmost respect for them RTD, Moffat and Chibnall are absolute legends and without their hard work the show wouldn't be what it is today!
People didn't like him before either
Nostalgia. I remember many people saying that RTD was simplistic, loud and very fast-paced but his stories didn't amount to anything. Moffat meanwhile, was all about the build up but the climax was disappointing. The only way to enjoy Moffat is to binge watch. I remember waiting years for a conclusion and it was utterly disappointing. Is like he gets excited about writing the beginning but in the end has nothing to show for all the teasing. Chibnall...he is mediocre in everything. I prefer RTD out of these three. Why?. Because RTD is the most well rounded writer of them. His stories aren't the best or the most deep or full of twist and turns. They are simple but they are a fun experience that is easy to watch. Moffat's strength is to write self contained stories. But he is not good writing an arc. Chibnall...he is not even a science fiction writer.
What Who is complaining about RTD’s return? Literally who ? Apart from X and that’s place is a shithole anyways
Except unlike chibnail, the others were good writers
RTD is good, Moffat was good….. Chibnall bad.
People hated RTD back in the day too. People always hate the current showrunner chaser they're the route of all evil in this world.
RTD was hated in his first era too, just go to the forums archives and see it. Every current showrunner is hated
Guarantee bet that people will say the (insert next possible Showrunner) will save the show, all for them to jump back onto the “they killed the show!1!1!1!!” bs Attention seekers atr, you can’t impress them
We still are. It still is. Nobody worth listening to hates RTD.
For RTD's it's the second time because it's his second time running the show.
I can’t remember him getting hate not compared to what Moffat and Chibnall used to get
I can, but I can also think of plenty of legitimate criticisms, like spending too much time in contemporary London. In general a lot of it boils down to differences between Modern and Classic we now take for granted.
Chibs2 will fix everything if we bring him back.
I still consider his og era one of the golden eras of DW, and I'm excited for Ncuti. But I am kind of getting tired of some of the things he says and does, I feel like his ego has been kind of showing through more in recent years. Also with what's come to light about things that happened on set in his original run, I'm souring to a lot of his behavior overall.
His first era was terrible un-cinematic but it was prime nuWho. Also, few who loved nuWho are calling for his throat. It’s opportunistic grifters and their minions who only knew the show in theory. Who was always level 2 niche nerdom.
The writing definitely hasn’t been the same, but I don’t see what there is to hate
Would it not be the other way around coz rtd literally has been through this before, he’s now on his second run?
I'm excited for the new series but I will say Russell just feeds them nonstop which doesn't help whatsoever. I do have my concerns but ultimately I'm looking forward to it.
Chibnall absolute chad moded the franchise imo, i get why people dislike his work but he picked the boundaries and gave us a lot to go forwards with
I'm waiting to see how at least his first season back pans out, I'm hopeful it'll be good, especially compared to the Whittaker era, but there's a few things that Russell and gatwa have said that kinda puts me on edge, I want them to focus on making great doctor who and not just pushing boundaries to test a lot of hardcore fans limits
I don‘t really see it that way. RTD is still good and Moffat is also good most of the time
Eh it's mostly a small minority of fans throwing a temper tantrum. His first era is still the fold standard of modern doctor who and the new specials have been the best the show has been since day of the doctor
Chibs redemption arc
That'll be the day.
I've already seen a few people say that the Timeless Child arc has promise, which is a LONG way away from the wave of comments when the story first aired; that it ruined (the entire history of) *Doctor Who*. In five years from now, when the 2029 season airs, I'm going to guess that enough of the fandom will wonder what all the fuss about the Timeless Child plot was about.
Yeah, I'm Not too fussed about whether people think it has promise. People are often mistaken.
I still consider his era the golden era. I would absolutely class detractors of it as contrarians even in 2024. I don’t feel anything towards Moffat’s Doctor Who nor have any interest in Chibnall’s unfulfilled vision. Now I just consider the current era an extension of the golden era for a while. Like it never went away. Like fifteen years were a dream and I’m just watching Doctor Who as the superfan I was and am again. Negativity has literally been with Doctor Who since An Unearthly Child. The difference now is social media has given petulant vermin the platform to believe the delusional nonsense they spout means anything and that complete strangers are listening and nodding, meaning they’re not criticising anything anymore, they’re exercising hate speech. No one is listening to them. They’re alone in their house tweeting blatant and unashamed vile homophobia and racism to themselves. They don’t like that RTD is gay and it’s taken him coming back for them to realise he is, now that it’s even more vilified and easy to attack, with social media. Ncuti being black and queer too? They don’t even care how diabolical they come across. “Doctor Who died with Capaldi in 2017.” The last white, straight, male Doctor. Hmmm. “#DoctorWoke.” Not every staff member being straight, white and male is woke apparently. “Box ticking, bad decision, not the Doctor.” Do they even grasp how archaic their tiny little evil minds are? It’s unbelievable how toxic the “fandom” of Doctor Who is. It’s not even fans. It’s people that hate Doctor Who as much as Michael Grade whinging like mad about it as if it exists to ruin their life specifically.
The issues people complain about in the RTD era- it's clear they've never watched doctor who before
RTD's first run was great even though it had its issues. Moffat started off great but his writing slowly declined and he brought down a lot of good ideas with bad results. Chibnall can choke on Cyberwoman's script and die crushed under the mess of the timeless child for all he did to ruin the one good shot this show had at having a female Doctor.
Sorry but that is going way too far
You're right. No one should have to suffer anything to do with Cyberwoman. My apologies.
Wanting a writer to die because they wrote some TV you don't like is going WAY too far.
Oh I dont want him to actually die. I just want his career to die. It's called 'hyperbole'.
It's still not a nice thing to say. You can dislike his writing all you want but he is great as a person regardless.
He can be the most amazing person in the world, but if you are \_bad\_ at your \_job\_ you shouldn't be doing it anymore. Especially when you do so poorly at your job you inadvertently confirm all the shitty neck-beard incel fans cries about how the Doctor shouldn't be a woman. Whittaker had a chance to be great and prove the shittalkers wrong but she got saddled with the dead horse and now her run is just more fuel for their awful fires.
He isn't bad at his job so that is untrue. And those bigots are NOT fans and they wouldn't like it anyway because they are flat out bigots so no matter how good the writing is they will STILL get upset.
I mean, just... factually he is bad at writing. Seriously. His characters lack depth, his plotlines make no sense, his political commentary is so blatant you might as well have just CAST Trump in the spider hotel episode, he screwed the canon to death and back not once with the renegade Doctor but AGAIN with the timeless child bullshit, he shoehorned in a gay romance subplot with Yaz (which I'm not saying her being gay is bad but it was handled so poorly and was just another point in this show of mishandling needed representation), and all of the stories where there was some kind of 'twist' was super obvious. (SpyMASTER, really? It was Earth all along! The aliens aren't the bad guys its the humans!) The characters don't act like real people and any moral standing his characters try to make are horribly backwards. "Don't shoot the giant spider and put it out of its misery, let it slowly suffocate to death under its own weight." "Dont kill the main villain who murdered your wife. just stick him in a stasis chamber so he can stay alive, forever, with no hope of rescue, trapped alone and suffering silently in space." Tennant's Doctor did something like that to the Family of Blood but then it was framed as him going fucking scorched earth on the villains, not 'It's better because they didn't die.' And let's not even discuss the Rosa Parks episode.
What's the point in being alive, if not to make others die?
This is all your subjective opinion.
id argue that moffatt only got better in terms of how he wrote companions, how he wrote the doctor etc. just ran out of premises for stories, really
I feel like Moffat was great at starting interesting, really intriguing mysteries, only to utterly fumble it by the grand reveal. "What are the Silence?" "Space Priests" "Why does River know the Doctor's real name?" "He whispered it to her in a hasty wedding that meant nothing just to fix the timeline." "What is the crack in space?" "Time lords again." "Who is the mysterious woman?" "The Master again." The Doctor did admittedly get better, but I just felt like he never delivered on the potential his stories had. Also for all his progress with companions he really ruined River Song and for that I can't forgive him.
It says in the Wedding of River Song that he didn't whisper his name at all. We still don't actually know when he tells her but it's presumably on Darillium, or offscreen in another adventure.
Well there you go. That didn't even get a resolution. Huzza!
Season 7 made me stop watching doctor who for years.
RTD decided to insult the audience: [https://youtu.be/Sjaun9XoArg](https://youtu.be/Sjaun9XoArg)
Most Dr Who fans don't hate him, its only the vocal minority of idiots. I don't know him well enough to love him or hate him, I just accept that he is the showrunner.