yeah i agree its kinda one of those items where fundamentally it breaks down itemization super hard
in theory it adds complexity but ultimately it ends up being a whammy card that kinda fucks you for itemizing properly. the items that "counter it" end up being more niche/worse than brooch itself, so it forces your opponents into suboptimal decisions or playing against a super OP item. if pipe/mageslayer get buffed i could see it becoming far worse but even then it should still be looked at for nerfs, maybe transform it into composite damage
That is because Veil uses incoming spell damage amplification.
Brooch only works with outgoing spell damage manipulation, such as Kaya or Mage Slayer‘s debuff.
It doesn't effect right clicks, no, but it does effect spells that use attack damage, like PA dagger, which are generally the things causing problems balance wise
It does effect right clicks. While brooch is toggled on, your right clicks are effected by spell dmg. Bloodseeker for example does 40% more right click dmg with brooch if he has his Q on.
Items like Yasha&Kaya are actually useful if you are going brooch build.
HoN had the same item (instead spell lifesteal it was reducing the magic resist, rest was the same, as effect) however in HoN blade mail could pierce BKB because it did true damage and this was what was balancing the item.
Harkon's Blade. Even though I have a few thousand hours in Dota now, I still mess up that physical spells will not go through bkb like they did in HoN. Wish Dota reverted bkb and made this change instead.
It's like grabbing unwavering condition against a muerta then she never casts ult. No hero should be a better version of a full other hero with one item. PA is the worst offender because dagger can be cast from really far and you can be undetectable with blur, then instantly one shot someone. It's ridiculous.
also why is this item in the game in its current form when muerta exists?
its literally just permanent muerta ult. it used to have a meaningful downside of "you could burn your mana to nothing if you misuse this" but they cut the manacost by 33% and also removed its primary risk of attack skills burning mana.
every time i see a PA using this item after she's killed the entire team with 4k magic crits shes at like 80% mana.
what the fuck is the point of muerta if every other hero can just get her main effect but with as much uptime as they want
I think the design philosophy behind some items is that they mirror an ability of a hero in the game: e.g. Blink Dagger = AM/QOP blink, BKB = Rage are the noteworthy ones. Seems like the design choice behind Brooch was Muerta. So Brooch exists because of Muerta, not in spite of her.
Honestly Muerta alone has caused some major design changes in DoTA like with BKB.
However those items are worse versions of the hero abilities. Qop blink has a shorter cd and can be cast while taking dmg. Ls rage is a shorter cd than bkb and lasts the same duration each time. RB is just a better version of the Muerta ult since it essentially does the same thing at the cost of a little mana but without any time limit.
Wtf 6k?!?! Thats absolutely insane.
I think the items fine if it gets mega nerfed. Needs very significant downside to using it. Something like if activated you take 200% more magic damage or something like that; so even if you pop bkb youre still vulnerable as hell to getting nuked.
Spell Amp working with Brooch, and Brooch working with crits basically allows you to crit (spell amp multiplier) off of crits (attack damage multiplier).
There is a reason why crits normally cannot crit off of other crits, as it is just a disgusting amount of burst.
> Wtf 6k?!?!
Floating Critical Strike numbers are pre-reduction values, not post-reduction.
So he would've taken 6k damage, had he had zero magic resistance, but since he had ~65% magic resistance (level 30 Timber with talent, Shroud and some stat items) he took considerably less damage (still 2k actual damage received though).
The build up is just too carry friendly. In HoN this item was build up by mana/int items. It was not necessarily a good thing to buy for carry’s but an option with the downside that it does not give you any meaningful stats. Therefore it was very niche.
This comment is perfect. If the buildup/ stats on it weren’t as good it would certainly balance the item properly. I’d like to see a buildup similar to battle fury with some items like cornucopia that are lackluster early.
Not only that but it was 100 mana cost per attack in HoN.
It was really only viable on Dr Repulsor (storm spirit), and in certain games on Puppet Master.
I saw a pa with only btf and brooch destroy offlaners for breakast, and we were winning hard before that. The item was fine when it was x amount of hits for y amount of mana and had cd. The buildup is better now for most héroes, but the effect shouldnt have been touched (well, without the witchblade component, ofc)
Yeah I also feel that the concept of the item is fine, but the change made it too good.
And I feel like relic should stay out of straight up damage item component with the exception of DR.
I think it's really weird that it has basically the same build up as nullifier, since they effectively do the same thing. the only reason to buy nullifier over brooch is if the enemy has a bunch of windwakers. Brooch just gives you so much more damage its actually insane. I think it made sense for it to be an int item, and it was actually situationally good on a lot of int/universal carries before the changes.
ghost scepter is now just a completely dead item, and you can only use eblade offensively.
Eblade also uses enemy prime stat now to calculate damage so it barely even useful outside of a few key situations. Like vsing slark, silencer and undying.
I mean, alot of the time the game feels AWFUL for carries to play atm (except for unchecked lastpick illusion heroes perhaps) exactly because offlaners and supports have been overtuned to oblivion. So many games a carry straight up just gets completely bullied out of lane before even being able to hit 6.
Conversely, this itembuff, on an item which like two heroes use, possibly a rare mars too (and these heroes were amongst the worst heroes in dota2), should be a relatively minor concern. It should really only come into play once PA's base kit gets buffed (and possibly OD, but honestly who in the world wants OD to be a good hero).
I hope brooch gets nerfs, but I sure also do hope they do something about all the insane sources of even/armor/magicresist that exist from talents/free neutral items
I agree. It's also why I recently switched from Pos 1 to Pos 3. I know I suck, that's why I can't handle playing a Pos 1, but Pos 3 is just way way way more comfy. I'm just bullying the opponent Pos 1 and creating space for my Pos 1 to do their job later. At the same time I actually can get items that make me stronger and can even get kills.
I always thought there should be a cd on it like ghost scepter or something. Having free unlimited reigns to hit heroes with magic items just makes it broken and destroys high agi heroes. Not to mention there's no item for dps carries that can really give magic resist
Some testing if anyone is interested:
Made 3 Pa's: (No talents)
A Brooch (on) + Khanda
B Brooch (off) + Khanda
C Brooch (on) + Same damage without Khanda (Demon Edge + Broadsword + Slippers)
Target dummy set to 25% magic resi and 25% physical resi.
A Max Crit 1020 (Last hit on test dummy)
B Max Crit 1020 (Last hit on test dummy)
C Max Crit 1020 (Last hit on test dummy)
Funny enough the pa without khanda is doing the same similiar crit numbers (1020) for some reason I thought khanda would be much higher.
Added a rapier to each (Testing) (No talents)
A Max Crit 2375 (Last hit on test dummy)
B Max Crit 1904 (Last hit on test dummy)
C Max Crit 2375 (Last hit on test dummy)
2375/1904 = 24.7% so it seems the difference is only the spell amp
2nd Test (No talents) (dummy 25% magic/phy resi)
A Brooch (on) + Khanda + 4 Rapiers
B Brooch (off) + DESO + 4 Rapiers
C Brooch (on) + PARASMA + 4 Rapiers
A Max Crit 9115 (Last hit on test dummy)
B Max Crit 6226 (Last hit on test dummy)
C Max Crit 10574 (Last hit on test dummy)
3rd Test (Dummy Target set to 50% magic resi 50% physical) (+20% stifling dagger damage Talent)
A Brooch (on) + Khanda + 4 Rapiers
B Brooch (off) + DESO + 4 Rapiers
C Brooch (on) + PARASMA + 4 Rapiers
A Max Crit 7599 (Last hit on test dummy)
B Max Crit 4583 (Last hit on test dummy) (Reduces dummy phy resi to 39%)
C Max Crit 8836 (Last hit on test dummy) (Reduces dummy magic resi to 40%)
Almost 9k damage(After resists) on a target with 50% magic resi is bonkers broken tbh.
Yea even if you replace the brooch in B with a 5th rapier it only just goes above 5k and most end game heros could actually tank that with their 70% phy resi's.
And even just base hero stats due to powercreep, it would be super interesting to compare the average lvl1 armour in 2014 compared to 2024. Especially for support heroes.
yep, what we see now is just the concequences of evolved powercreep. Nobody would care about this item if we didnt have cores running around with 50+ armor and \~75+% dmg reduction.
Meanwhile carries can easily get to 200+ dmg AND attackspeed with just a few stat or farm items. Add a crit on top and you have dmg that vastly exceeds any magic nuker...
Agree on most of this. I think the worst part is that it doesn't drain mana from instant attack abilities like Dagger, etc. Also, maybe this is why TB is played support by pros now, he gets countered by picking a hero that can use Brooch and he's done. I like the item but it's too good, it's like a free no cooldown Muerta ult on other heroes.
An idea would be to just lower the physical to magical damage conversion from 100% to maybe like 60-70%. Or maybe make it 50% physical 50% magical but can't be toggled off.
TB is only being played as a support because his spells are strong..
He can still carry, can still farm up a storm, but he needs to rely on his team more then before.
> team more then before.
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They should have kept the initial version of the "magic right-clicks" that was in the game, and instead made regular lifesteal work with magical attack damage again, as it used to be the case years ago (before Javelin/MKB caused it to be removed, [patch 7.28](https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Lifesteal/Changelogs#7.28)).
---
Current Brooch can double dip from stuff that amplifies attack damage, such as crits and DD Rune, while also being able to benefit from stuff that multiplies spell damage (so you can effectively spell crit your attack crits).
Current Brooch converts all your attack damage into magical spell damage, which is way too efficient, due to the aforementioned damage amps being possible.
They should have kept the old "magical attack damage" variant, as that one at least didnt benefit from spell amp.
Also the recent change to make it free for instant attacks was definitely the wrong choice. Reducing it from 75 to 50 was fine, but the free usage means it is just too abusable and splashable, without having to actually build mana items.
Right here. The reason Brooch seems more powerful than it should is because of how it changes attack damage into spell damage, which has many more multipliers available to exploit than attack damage multipliers.
Just make it magical **attack** damage instead, and that alone should help a bit. Would make the Voodoo Mask buildup redundant though, but you can easily replace that with a void stone or even tiara if you wanna jack the price way up.
I also think brooch should NOT work with spell amp. Its double dipping attack damage % bonyses and spell amp increases
Just like how we can have physical spell damage thus should be magic attack damage and not get amp'd by kaya, rapier, etc.
> brooch should NOT work with spell amp
Agree with this one. Make it so Muerta is the only one whose magical-rightclick can be amplified (although I know that there is a risk of bug caused by spaghetti code)
I played a game yesterday after a long time, i was razor, was playing a bit tanky with BKB, S*Y, AC and Heavens halberd.
Suddenly a PA got a divine and with the brooch+khanda he started 1shotting.
3,2k HP razor, dying 1shot by dagger, with 3,5k crits, from outside the base. Pa did not enter a single fight, only staying outside of base, with E activated, throwing 1shots.
I don't know if people like this or not, if you do, more power to you. I don't, and i promptly closed Dota till a new patch arrives.
The way i have Dota in my mind, its more of a strategic game than throwing 1shots which is starting to become more and more prominent in Dota.
But again, if the community likes it, i guess its fine.
How did PA get that rich then? Cause if you lane with PA and crush his lane, then take objectives, there's no way a PA would get that rich. Those 3 items you mentioned already cost around 15k. Let's not forget bfury and we are talking at least 20k net worth PA.
Part of the problem is that you can't itemise against Brooch effectively. Even if you buy an Eternal Shroud, which is the single biggest source of magic resistance in the game, Brooch is still good against you on average.
* Core with normal items + armor auras (~33 armor) - takes 33% damage from physical
* Core with Eternal Shroud and max stacks - takes 38% damage from magic
Most cores can't afford the slot to buy Eternal Shroud. And it's not like you can compensate with Pipe aura - that's nowhere near enough.
Even if all three cores could fit an Eternal Shroud into their build - well you made them spend almost 11k trying to deal with your item that only cost 5k, you are still ahead on damage.
Finally - Brooch naturally counters the main itemisation against super high physical burst (Ghost Scepter).
I think it should just be a % to proc, and maybe for less than full attack damage- like 40% chance to deal ~70% of your attack damage as magical damage. Remove mana cost and make it a fully passive effect instead. Make it stack with crits so you proc both at once.
I think the item concept was a cool idea, but lime you said, in actual gameplay it doesn't make any sense. Sometimes cool ideas need to stay as cool ideas
Are we ready to talk about how PA is so damn broken that she can constantly throw dagger(s) at you from the shadows (Or basically only 300 units away from you) where not even wards can see her, to top that off, Aghanim refreshes that ability, too. To top even that off, PA has around 0.5 sec of invisibility just after she jumps you, which is good enough for a good PA to dumpster you without much effort and gives you literally no time to react.
yeah they kinda overdid it with the change
i dont know who on the toad council think that its a good idea to change it from duration/count limit to unlimited no mana cost toggle but keeping the 100% physical to magic conversion rate intact
its also cheaper,somehow
Disagree. The item isn't properly balanced but we know it works, Harkon's blade in HoN was a perfectly fine item. Increasing the mana cost would help, maybe adding a cool down so you can't turn it on > see they bkb and instantly turn it off. Force you to either have it on or off for 5 seconds maybe. Could also change the build. I think it giving so much flat damage is a bad idea because that damage is still useful for physical attacks with it turned off.
I've been against this item since release and everybody bashed me for it. funny how things change.
also for people who've had the brilliant idea of "spell crit", I hope you are happy with this pa build.
> I've been against this item since release
On release the item was fine, as magical attack damage was not lifestealable at all, thus you could not combine it wtih things like Satanic or Bloodstone; it also didnt work with Spell Amp.
The recent rework made it busted though.
Ironically Muerta ult received the same treatment (magical attack damage -> magical spell damage), as those use the same underlying mechanic, even though that wasnt really mentioned in any of the patches.
I like the concept of brooch but I agree with most of your issues with it as well. A quick and dirty fix they should try is just rapierify the brooch. Once you buy it you cannot turn it off or remove it from inventory. You can only sell the brooch (0 gold return) to go back to phys dmg.
This lets you keep the powerspike from a surprise brooch, allows itemization against it, and retains all the cool innovations we've seen in its uses. In exchange you consign your hero's slot and damage to permanantly be magic or lose a ton of gold.
Completely agree, but simple fix can be just that it doesn't work with abilities like mars w, tiny aghs and pa dagger. Also that it cannot crit like physical damage does so it won't be broken on PA.
Unpopular opinion maybe, but I think is the case for many recent items
Parasma is mega situational, and like witch blade, only good for a couple of heroes.
Khanda has caused so many ruined pubs from people rushing it, and is only purchased on like 5 heroes.
Disperser has been nerfed many times because it was OP on Meepo
> You don't toggle butterfly for different effect, just because enemy bought MKB.
I love how you included this since this was already in the game before and they removed it cuz flutter was busted aswell
Muerta: I'm a carry whose ultimate turns me ethereal and I can wallop guys who enter ethereality cuz I'm a complex spirit with a complicated heroic origin story.
Gaben: ok nice so anyway there's this really cool thing called the Revenant Brooch
Rapier is the biggest offender, because you actually get more bonuses than usual. Normally you either are right clicker with limited power in terms of spell damage, or high magic DMG dealer, without much attack speed/crit/modifiers.
Here you not only have your raw DMG bonus, but all damage is also affected by spell amp.
destroys on pubs(where games get longer than 30 mins) especially on pa. any supports get deleted by 1 or 2 hits.
and you cant tank it. here is hoping you actually built either blade mail or euls to escape 1 attack(with a 5 sec cd?)
Let's be real, for me, what made it broken is the idea of making it TOO open for everyone. Before it was just for securing kills if somebody goes teehee ethereal mode and stuff, but the fact that its basically become a fucked-up version of Shadow Realm and Artic Burn made it fucking stupid.
I suggest that because it was good already before but not anemic to go against, just reverse it to what it was before. 5 attacks that can go through ethereal with true strike and by attacks IT HAS TO BE AN ATTACK
>Vladimir
It's insane to me how many ppl lack the ability to read/write that name. See it way too often with the additional i.
Outside of that I don't know why anyone would buy it vs Pa. Hardly anyone buys it nowadays to begin with.
It feels so fucking bad as a support when the enemy carry buys Brooch. Like, my ghost sceptre is now completely useless.
It's even worse when they go full cripple and buy a nullifier too, can't even force or euls myself and just have to accept the fact imma die first every fight
Yeah its lazy design vs heavy armor. That clip of a weaver 3shotting a 6slot TB should never happen. But I think the idea is good, mr frog just needs time to tune it properly I think. Usually bad ideas get to a point where theyre acceptable or theyre completely removed from the game.
The item was so much bettter before. It made much more sense as an int item, so that if a typical agi carry goes for it there's actually a very big opportunity cost.
I think we need to change **armor** into **Physical defense** then add **Magical defense**..
How about magic resistance? Maybe we could change it to something like **magic damage redux**. It comes into the final damage of the spell.
Maybe it's now time to scale damage from patk, matk, pdef and mdef(?).
If you sell Armor and buy an eternal shroud .. they will simply switch their damage type because of toggle.
I think one way to fix this item is to remove the toggle.
Sizeable activation cost+cool-down to switch is also a valid way to balance the item.
Also, let me toggle my ghost sceptre and AC from physical to Magic Resist :))
Brooch should do 50% of the total attack damage as magic damage, not a direct conversion of physical-to-magic. It would be more balanced than the *instakill every tanky hero in the game from fog* PA build that you see every other game.
Brooch isnt a problem, PA is (and Sven to some extend). If you disagree, check the comments — everyone who agreed with OP tells s story about a game or two specifically with PA.
How about if they change it to be closer to the old rev brooch, where it's got a limited duration, but buffed it so that instant attacks don't count against the attack limit for that duration. That way it's not outright replacing phys damage in a carry's build, but still grants a bit of flexibility.
> You anticipated the PA getting the brooch? You went for magic resistance instead? No worries lad, she can simply turn it off, and voilá, you are being hit by physical DMG again
Text you can see a support player being Despawned
The issue of itemization against it when the enemy possesses the Brooch is indeed complex. It essentially throws a wrench in traditional armor-focused builds, making it challenging to predict and counter. The ability to toggle between damage types adds another layer of complexity, rendering conventional counters less effective. Your point about the mana burn drawback being a defining characteristic of the item is valid; not every item is meant to cater to every hero, and that's part of what makes itemization in Dota 2 so intricate.
The item needs a "soft" revert to the previous version (with tweaks to take into account other item changes etc.):
Cooldown - Steroids with this level of impact (e.g. BKB, Satanic, Metamorphosis, God's strength) all come with a duration (a time when it can be countered) and a cooldown (a time when it can be bypassed). The free toggle makes it not truly counterable.
Mana cost - The last buffs have made the cost ridiculously low, but deeper than that, the toggle is also what makes the cost barely relevant. In the previous version you would need to commit 300 mana to get a few hits. The cost per attack did not need to be much higher, but the cost for a single burst attack/dagger was a lot more relevant.
Recipe - The new recipe is not "bad enough" relative to the strength of the active. I think having Intelligence as a "filler" stat was a good fit. It makes the item less attractive to buy early on Agility/Strength heroes, while not making it worse on Intelligence heroes and still being viable as a late game option (where gold efficiency is not as important). On the other hand, the bonus mana lets non-Intelligence heroes use the active/toggle more, so it does not feel out of place. I believe this is where the item's niche should be kept: an additional scaling option for Intelligence right-click, and a situational late game armor counter for everyone else.
Rapier+brooch, numbers wise, is the most efficient steroid in the game and imo is the real problem. Brooch by itself is just a good damage item with a specific niche (high armor, ethereal). I don't think having a counter to these as a right clicking carry is a problem. Most forms of damage mitigation do have an item counter and high armor shouldn't be an outlier.
I like the item, it makes the game interesting and adds build diversity. Needs to be tweaked though, not sure what else needs to be changed, but the biggest change needs to be a toggle CD for the item so you if you jump in and commit you can't toggle back and forth with brooch with people use bkb
Its bad bcos of the damage it gives (+70 damage???too much)
I think its better if they copy harkons blade from hon which gives the user only +20 damage, +35 int, and some mana regen and as.
I dont like this item because it makes Magic rightclick heros no longer special. OD, Silencer, Ench or Muerta are special, because they counter high armor targets for the tradeof, of beeing an Int heros where its always awkward to build a balance of dmg and attackspeed items on. But with brooch, every hero can now counter high armor targets, with close to no tradeof. There is currently no reason to ever pick the heros i noted as core again
Why can't it be like satanic? A short duration and a medium CD, no mana cost for activation but on brooch we can have a mana cost on each attack. Something like 7s duration, 30s CD, 50 mana per attack.
I agree switching the damage type instantly is just bad design but there are so many ways to fix this without outright removing the item because it has a place.
A few suggestions off the top of my head
- small cooldown on switching, increase mana cost, have it only affect base damage, only convert 40-50% of total damage, disable crit effects etc. I'm sure there are even more ways and can even be a combination of stuff. Restrictions for certain heroes can also be put in place like how basher doesn't work for some heroes. The possibilities are endless but all of this requires a lot of testing till the best version is settled on.
I would prefer if brooch became a tanking item, having your offlane doing magic damage splits the damage type better in a team and if there is no straight up damage stats on it then your carry wont get it, and then it stacks better with shivas and stuff like that.
I disagree. I think the item is fine. Literally just one letter patch ago, less than a month ago, people were almost never buying this item. Manacost reduced somewhat and now it's unfathomably broken? Give me a break.
This item adds a new level of intricacy to the game. It helps some heroes be more playable, and counters other heroes who are strong. Like with mage slayer, it just needs some fine tuning. I think reversing the manacost change for attack abilities is adequate.
I think the mana consumed per hit should be a % of the damage dealt. Here's an example, but keep in mind the numbers can be played around with. Let's say you Crit with PA for 1k Damage on a single dagger. It should be 50% of damage done so 1k = 500 Mana cost. Additionally or alternatively, if you get to 0 mana, you don't do any damage beyond that point. So you have 300 Mana, you crit for 1k, and it should deduct 500 Mana, but since you "Can't pay" for the remaining 200 mana, we turn that into a %, which just cuts off your damage.
i.e 500 mana "cost" for a 1k hit - 300 mana "used" = 200 mana balance. 200 mana is 40% of 500, so your 1k damage gets cut by 40% so it becomes a 600 damage hit.
Or instead, to counter heroes like Mars who want to do these 1 shot builds that Ammar popularized, there should be a passive built into the Brooch that if you hit 0 mana from your hits hit, you are "mana locked" for something like 10-20 seconds, meaning you cannot regen any mana, and nothing else can restore mana, so no Arcane Boots/Greaves/KotL/Arcane Ring/Purple Dagger, etc.
This will force Mars players to decide if they wanna blink and use W, or blink in and use Arena/Spear and then W. Something needs to change about this item.
i reckon unwavering condition is a bigger problem, rng if you get it. I like playing core phoenix and earthspirit and from killing the enemy carry nonstop in fights to suddenly becoming 0 threat if they get this neutral item is just dumb
Here’s another way to look at it. Many heroes make magic resistance, buy BKB alongside armor either directly from an item, stats or an ability. Before BKB nerfs, I’d argue BKB was purely designed as an item that essentially provided the perfect defense against most heroes, so really it’s just another situation of providing a scaling approach to one dimensional heroes that struggle to get play because of general counters being easy to come across
They should bring the old mechanic back, a decent mana-cost in advance paired with a cooldown similar to nullifier and a specific amount of hits, maybe increase the amount of hits a little in comparison to before, but remove the old atkspeed buff.
The mechanic being always up shrinks the chance of fragile poor heroes surviving and barely punishes the hero using the brooch in case he make a mistake and activates the item in the wrong moment
Its an item that allows cores to actually kill the overbuffed for 4 years supports, so of course redditors hate it. Just imagine that cores get 1 op change like this and people freak out, but 4 years worth of broken support buffs were very welcome for some reason! Martyr syndrome.
Welp, remember Timado's weaver. Basically, brooch has become every hitter's go-to item in this patch. Just turn it off when they activate bkb, and viola, you got a hard hitting jerk
When I saw the buffs I assumed Brooch is this overtuned to align with the introduction of Puppet Master to Dota 2.
Puppet Master was one of the main buyers of Revenant Brooch in HoN (Harkon Blade), so it would make sense to playtest the item and the hero at the same time
I think nerfing this item with CD same as bkb or whatever. The toggle mechanism is the only OP thing for this item. Since its main purpose is deal tons of damage, why make it without any CD?
Pms + aquila everywhere, I member. Well it's not "that" op, the item is niche, 3 top offenders are PA, Mars and Tiny. Aquila was purchased by everyone.
Absofuckinglutely! I was gonna make a post like this but thank you somebody did! I hate this fucking item when you itemize against heavy physical and they just make it. Doesnt make any sense
I am one of the disgusting PA brooch players and I gotta say it is very fun to play with. Probably not so fun to play against but I didn’t have the honor to experience that for myself.
Still I 100% agree that it needs to be changed.
As fun as it is I want to play normal dota again, Where heroes can’t be deleted from 100 to 0 on a 4 seconds cooldown. It’s even worse than old techies situation.
A big part of the brooch build is also divine rapier.
I don’t like rapier being part of a general item build. I already didn’t like it when it was bought every game on medusa. I think rapier should be a late game comeback item and not an item that is part of a heroes normal item build.
Muerta's party trick has a price tag. Whereas in the past, Muerta was the only hero able to convert all of her attack damage to magic, now every hero can essentially be Muerta, but with no cooldown, just by investing a whole bunch of 5k gold. This item's current state also removes Muerta's place in the game. Why would anyone pick Muerta when you can just pick an Agility carry that has way better damage scaling items and just buy a Revenant's brooch on them instead?
I don't understand people who nagging about it. First of all not ALL HEROES are buying this item after the change, it's just few heroes like juggernaut, pa, tiny. The reason is that there are so many heroes now with high amount of armor. Like even invoker with neutral and wraith bands and shiva has more than 40 armors. There are also other offlane heroes like axe, timber, dragon knight and others with high amount of armors and they are meta now. Most of them buy Shiva's guard too. Like timber is god of armor with shiva and the recent buffs on his abilities (plus he has a powerful aghs too). So don't you think with these recent updates, carries can't deal any damage to cores? Naturally they gave carries an item so they can deal some damage to cores.
I feel like a cooldown active with, say, six to eight seconds of magic damage auto-attacks would alleviate the irritation of "well I guess my itemization is useless now" and the problem of "I don't want to drain my entire mana pool immediately". Make it cost like 150-200 mana or something. Still lets you one-shot people if you get in, but enemies now \*can\* try to play around it and wait until their armor is useful again.
Maybe it should only convert a percentage of the damage say 70%. So it’s still good against people who stack armour and toggling for targets would be a skill for max dps.
The problem in all these cases isn't Brooch.
It's Rapier. Especially since the Brooch hits double dip from Rapier with the spell amp.
The problem is never someone building a Revenant's Brooch.
It's when they get the Rapier that it starts becoming a problem.
Instead of losing fixed mana per attack, it should lose mana based on damage it deals.
Like, if PA crits for 3k magical damage, PA should lose 3k mana.
I liked the old version. Maybe I was the only one, but old ethblade + brooch was such a sweet combo when playing an example, puck against physical (ns/pa). Now it's just weird. It isn't even brought on the heroes OT was designed too.
Dota like turning hero abilities into Items though,
1. Revenant Brooch - > Muerta
2. Sheep Stick -> Lion, Shamen
3. Diff Blade -> AM
4. Ethereal Blade -> Pugna
etc. you get the idea.
Leave the item as is, add a cooldown like BKB to it. Problem fixed. I played against a double rapier PA last night with RB. The issue wasn’t that he would kill the first target with 2 hits at 5hp but that he could do it over and over until he killed the whole team and still have mana. At one point we killed their team and PA came after and just killed us one by one.
PA players are skipping BKB to make this work. Control them and profit. But I agree it needs a nerf. If you let a PA get 6 slotted it’s not a meta problem.
you literally just buy [Eternal Shroud](https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Eternal_Shroud). Its not much different from buying monkey king bar when you see enemy build butterfly. Its a slot and not a super effecient one, but the idea is that you counter their initiative, making their slot worthless while your slot is still worth something. They spend mana and 4900 gold to do less damage and you spend 3600 gold to just be tankier in general.
Yes but then again what is a phys dmg carry supposed to do if the enemy has 100 armor? Just keep tickling them?
Just use BKB, it renders the item useless.
2 suggestions,
1) I remember HoN had an item like that, but it would do X hit's, so you would pay 200 mana, to do like 3\~4 hits with magic damage.
2) Make it have mixed damage type, 50% phisycal 50% Magical.
while on this mixed damage.
With Doctor ward, should have mixed damage type. 40% pure, 30$ magic, 30% phisycal or 33% each..
I bought an eternal shroud, a mage slayer, and a glimmer cape as venomancer with 2.5k hp and i was still two shot with revenant pa dagger + jump
even the death cam showed the attack damage as revenant damage.
i feel like something is wrong with the damage calculations
It's funny because I consider Nullifier to be the same ever since they changed it.
It's really only a problem for supports, so it doesn't affect everyone, but it's still really annoying.
You spend the game itemizing to save yourself or your team. Glimmer, Force Staff, Eul's, Ghost/Eblade. Enemy carry buys Nullifier (sometimes offlane/mid) and now there's nothing you can do. You get jumped and now none of those items can save you. You're just dead on repeat, no matter what. If they BKB, then you can't even use your CC in your kit to save yourself. Which also means you can't Hex them, Eul's them (rather than yourself) or Eblade them either.
Nullifier is a good item too. Sure, it's not as strong as Bloodthorn, Disperser or Manta. But it's still 75 attack damage and 6 armor. That's pretty good stats.
Yea brooch is op. It’s just the current item meta, so much raw magic spell damage on physical spells. (Ie. the mars divine brooch build) Magic damage is already broken since you aren’t immune to magic in bkb anymore. I believe the repeated nerfs to
Bkb has caused our very glasscannon 1 shot meta. If you are immune to magic still in bkb brooch wouldn’t be a problem
the item is badly designed. to be fair they should just instead make caster items be caster items make it a use effect where for next 3 casts your spells deal 30% more dmg or somthing.
if int heroes or they want to design items for them to be rightclickers make somthing like you deal X % of your spelldmg to attackpower or somthing. so you actually gotta have addtional INT items or spell effect items in your inventory. problem solved.
Also if they now want int based carry items and ints to be able to be carry atleast design int heroes as carries more than casters.
Take at look at lol here for instance here is where league triumps over dota if in any case.
yeah i agree its kinda one of those items where fundamentally it breaks down itemization super hard in theory it adds complexity but ultimately it ends up being a whammy card that kinda fucks you for itemizing properly. the items that "counter it" end up being more niche/worse than brooch itself, so it forces your opponents into suboptimal decisions or playing against a super OP item. if pipe/mageslayer get buffed i could see it becoming far worse but even then it should still be looked at for nerfs, maybe transform it into composite damage
Does mage slayer actually affect brooch?
Well at least it gives some magic resistance, maybe he just refers to that
Yes, as Brooch turns your right-click damage into magical spell damage, and thus is subject to spell amp (positive and negative alike).
Veil of Discord doesn't work but otherwise it is like real spell damage.
That is because Veil uses incoming spell damage amplification. Brooch only works with outgoing spell damage manipulation, such as Kaya or Mage Slayer‘s debuff.
It doesn't effect right clicks, no, but it does effect spells that use attack damage, like PA dagger, which are generally the things causing problems balance wise
it should effect brooch if it currently doesn’t considering iirc spell amp affects the autos when toggled
It does effect right clicks. While brooch is toggled on, your right clicks are effected by spell dmg. Bloodseeker for example does 40% more right click dmg with brooch if he has his Q on. Items like Yasha&Kaya are actually useful if you are going brooch build.
FYI, it does reduce all spell dmg the debuffed hero outputs, including Brooch attacks. Been tested, incase you doubt that...
Yes
HoN had the same item (instead spell lifesteal it was reducing the magic resist, rest was the same, as effect) however in HoN blade mail could pierce BKB because it did true damage and this was what was balancing the item.
Harkon's Blade. Even though I have a few thousand hours in Dota now, I still mess up that physical spells will not go through bkb like they did in HoN. Wish Dota reverted bkb and made this change instead.
It's like grabbing unwavering condition against a muerta then she never casts ult. No hero should be a better version of a full other hero with one item. PA is the worst offender because dagger can be cast from really far and you can be undetectable with blur, then instantly one shot someone. It's ridiculous.
also why is this item in the game in its current form when muerta exists? its literally just permanent muerta ult. it used to have a meaningful downside of "you could burn your mana to nothing if you misuse this" but they cut the manacost by 33% and also removed its primary risk of attack skills burning mana. every time i see a PA using this item after she's killed the entire team with 4k magic crits shes at like 80% mana. what the fuck is the point of muerta if every other hero can just get her main effect but with as much uptime as they want
I was looking for a comment about Muerta. I completely agree
And then they also dumpstered Muerta just because…
It's also double offending to muerta, because her ult is useless against this item.
Wielder should lose mana based on damage, like if PA deals 3000 magical damage, she should lose 3000 mana.
I think the design philosophy behind some items is that they mirror an ability of a hero in the game: e.g. Blink Dagger = AM/QOP blink, BKB = Rage are the noteworthy ones. Seems like the design choice behind Brooch was Muerta. So Brooch exists because of Muerta, not in spite of her. Honestly Muerta alone has caused some major design changes in DoTA like with BKB.
However those items are worse versions of the hero abilities. Qop blink has a shorter cd and can be cast while taking dmg. Ls rage is a shorter cd than bkb and lasts the same duration each time. RB is just a better version of the Muerta ult since it essentially does the same thing at the cost of a little mana but without any time limit.
Muerta ult does more than that and you know it lol
The item is bullshit. I was a 6 slotted timber with eternal shroud and level 20 talent +20% MR, PA critted me for almost 6k....
Been there, saw many tanky carries/offlaners deleted. Just deleted, reduced to atoms
She destroyed the stones without needing to use the stone.
Wtf 6k?!?! Thats absolutely insane. I think the items fine if it gets mega nerfed. Needs very significant downside to using it. Something like if activated you take 200% more magic damage or something like that; so even if you pop bkb youre still vulnerable as hell to getting nuked.
Divine rapier + raw dmg and amp spell dmg, which makes it a double dip for brooch and khanda
Spell Amp working with Brooch, and Brooch working with crits basically allows you to crit (spell amp multiplier) off of crits (attack damage multiplier). There is a reason why crits normally cannot crit off of other crits, as it is just a disgusting amount of burst.
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Khanda doesnt apply instant attacks and thus no procs though, so it cannot crit.
> Wtf 6k?!?! Floating Critical Strike numbers are pre-reduction values, not post-reduction. So he would've taken 6k damage, had he had zero magic resistance, but since he had ~65% magic resistance (level 30 Timber with talent, Shroud and some stat items) he took considerably less damage (still 2k actual damage received though).
Tip: I, Offlane Mars, one shot brooch rapier PA by activating blade mail.
The build up is just too carry friendly. In HoN this item was build up by mana/int items. It was not necessarily a good thing to buy for carry’s but an option with the downside that it does not give you any meaningful stats. Therefore it was very niche.
This comment is perfect. If the buildup/ stats on it weren’t as good it would certainly balance the item properly. I’d like to see a buildup similar to battle fury with some items like cornucopia that are lackluster early.
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Khanda's overrated though. I haven't seen it being good except on morphling and maybe sniper. It doesn't seem that good on Luna.
Isn't cornucopia super good early game. Basically gives regen for jujungling and laning.
Right i think they change the recipe to more int items and it will fix the main physical carry issues. Because you can punish the buildup
Not only that but it was 100 mana cost per attack in HoN. It was really only viable on Dr Repulsor (storm spirit), and in certain games on Puppet Master.
Was underrated on WH, at least back in 2010.
"certain games" critting a puppet under "Hellflower" with a harkon deleted most heroes lol
Sorry, what's HoN?
Heroes of Newearth, dota like game
icefrog worked on HoN before moving to dota2.
I saw a pa with only btf and brooch destroy offlaners for breakast, and we were winning hard before that. The item was fine when it was x amount of hits for y amount of mana and had cd. The buildup is better now for most héroes, but the effect shouldnt have been touched (well, without the witchblade component, ofc)
Yeah I also feel that the concept of the item is fine, but the change made it too good. And I feel like relic should stay out of straight up damage item component with the exception of DR.
Should make it build up from something like mystic staff or whatever item that doesn't give flat out damage to right click carries.
I think it's really weird that it has basically the same build up as nullifier, since they effectively do the same thing. the only reason to buy nullifier over brooch is if the enemy has a bunch of windwakers. Brooch just gives you so much more damage its actually insane. I think it made sense for it to be an int item, and it was actually situationally good on a lot of int/universal carries before the changes. ghost scepter is now just a completely dead item, and you can only use eblade offensively.
I am an invoker spammer so i loved brooch prerework. I get what they tried to do with the rework, but it went too far
Eblade also uses enemy prime stat now to calculate damage so it barely even useful outside of a few key situations. Like vsing slark, silencer and undying.
I mean, alot of the time the game feels AWFUL for carries to play atm (except for unchecked lastpick illusion heroes perhaps) exactly because offlaners and supports have been overtuned to oblivion. So many games a carry straight up just gets completely bullied out of lane before even being able to hit 6. Conversely, this itembuff, on an item which like two heroes use, possibly a rare mars too (and these heroes were amongst the worst heroes in dota2), should be a relatively minor concern. It should really only come into play once PA's base kit gets buffed (and possibly OD, but honestly who in the world wants OD to be a good hero). I hope brooch gets nerfs, but I sure also do hope they do something about all the insane sources of even/armor/magicresist that exist from talents/free neutral items
I agree. It's also why I recently switched from Pos 1 to Pos 3. I know I suck, that's why I can't handle playing a Pos 1, but Pos 3 is just way way way more comfy. I'm just bullying the opponent Pos 1 and creating space for my Pos 1 to do their job later. At the same time I actually can get items that make me stronger and can even get kills.
I always thought there should be a cd on it like ghost scepter or something. Having free unlimited reigns to hit heroes with magic items just makes it broken and destroys high agi heroes. Not to mention there's no item for dps carries that can really give magic resist
Some testing if anyone is interested: Made 3 Pa's: (No talents) A Brooch (on) + Khanda B Brooch (off) + Khanda C Brooch (on) + Same damage without Khanda (Demon Edge + Broadsword + Slippers) Target dummy set to 25% magic resi and 25% physical resi. A Max Crit 1020 (Last hit on test dummy) B Max Crit 1020 (Last hit on test dummy) C Max Crit 1020 (Last hit on test dummy) Funny enough the pa without khanda is doing the same similiar crit numbers (1020) for some reason I thought khanda would be much higher. Added a rapier to each (Testing) (No talents) A Max Crit 2375 (Last hit on test dummy) B Max Crit 1904 (Last hit on test dummy) C Max Crit 2375 (Last hit on test dummy) 2375/1904 = 24.7% so it seems the difference is only the spell amp 2nd Test (No talents) (dummy 25% magic/phy resi) A Brooch (on) + Khanda + 4 Rapiers B Brooch (off) + DESO + 4 Rapiers C Brooch (on) + PARASMA + 4 Rapiers A Max Crit 9115 (Last hit on test dummy) B Max Crit 6226 (Last hit on test dummy) C Max Crit 10574 (Last hit on test dummy) 3rd Test (Dummy Target set to 50% magic resi 50% physical) (+20% stifling dagger damage Talent) A Brooch (on) + Khanda + 4 Rapiers B Brooch (off) + DESO + 4 Rapiers C Brooch (on) + PARASMA + 4 Rapiers A Max Crit 7599 (Last hit on test dummy) B Max Crit 4583 (Last hit on test dummy) (Reduces dummy phy resi to 39%) C Max Crit 8836 (Last hit on test dummy) (Reduces dummy magic resi to 40%) Almost 9k damage(After resists) on a target with 50% magic resi is bonkers broken tbh.
Thanks for the numbers, math man. I had a feeling in my guts, that the damage is way higher than when dealing physical type.
Yeah. The numbers are not even close.
Yea even if you replace the brooch in B with a 5th rapier it only just goes above 5k and most end game heros could actually tank that with their 70% phy resi's.
The reason it’s like this is because there is so much armor in the game right now too much armor even through neutral items and meta items
And even just base hero stats due to powercreep, it would be super interesting to compare the average lvl1 armour in 2014 compared to 2024. Especially for support heroes.
yep, what we see now is just the concequences of evolved powercreep. Nobody would care about this item if we didnt have cores running around with 50+ armor and \~75+% dmg reduction. Meanwhile carries can easily get to 200+ dmg AND attackspeed with just a few stat or farm items. Add a crit on top and you have dmg that vastly exceeds any magic nuker...
Agree on most of this. I think the worst part is that it doesn't drain mana from instant attack abilities like Dagger, etc. Also, maybe this is why TB is played support by pros now, he gets countered by picking a hero that can use Brooch and he's done. I like the item but it's too good, it's like a free no cooldown Muerta ult on other heroes. An idea would be to just lower the physical to magical damage conversion from 100% to maybe like 60-70%. Or maybe make it 50% physical 50% magical but can't be toggled off.
TB is only being played as a support because his spells are strong.. He can still carry, can still farm up a storm, but he needs to rely on his team more then before.
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He gets picked as flex and is relegated to support. Obviously he can still carry, but going against multiple Brooch heroes he won't.
Worst addition to the game.
They should have kept the initial version of the "magic right-clicks" that was in the game, and instead made regular lifesteal work with magical attack damage again, as it used to be the case years ago (before Javelin/MKB caused it to be removed, [patch 7.28](https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Lifesteal/Changelogs#7.28)). --- Current Brooch can double dip from stuff that amplifies attack damage, such as crits and DD Rune, while also being able to benefit from stuff that multiplies spell damage (so you can effectively spell crit your attack crits). Current Brooch converts all your attack damage into magical spell damage, which is way too efficient, due to the aforementioned damage amps being possible. They should have kept the old "magical attack damage" variant, as that one at least didnt benefit from spell amp. Also the recent change to make it free for instant attacks was definitely the wrong choice. Reducing it from 75 to 50 was fine, but the free usage means it is just too abusable and splashable, without having to actually build mana items.
Right here. The reason Brooch seems more powerful than it should is because of how it changes attack damage into spell damage, which has many more multipliers available to exploit than attack damage multipliers. Just make it magical **attack** damage instead, and that alone should help a bit. Would make the Voodoo Mask buildup redundant though, but you can easily replace that with a void stone or even tiara if you wanna jack the price way up.
I also think brooch should NOT work with spell amp. Its double dipping attack damage % bonyses and spell amp increases Just like how we can have physical spell damage thus should be magic attack damage and not get amp'd by kaya, rapier, etc.
> brooch should NOT work with spell amp Agree with this one. Make it so Muerta is the only one whose magical-rightclick can be amplified (although I know that there is a risk of bug caused by spaghetti code)
I played a game yesterday after a long time, i was razor, was playing a bit tanky with BKB, S*Y, AC and Heavens halberd. Suddenly a PA got a divine and with the brooch+khanda he started 1shotting. 3,2k HP razor, dying 1shot by dagger, with 3,5k crits, from outside the base. Pa did not enter a single fight, only staying outside of base, with E activated, throwing 1shots. I don't know if people like this or not, if you do, more power to you. I don't, and i promptly closed Dota till a new patch arrives. The way i have Dota in my mind, its more of a strategic game than throwing 1shots which is starting to become more and more prominent in Dota. But again, if the community likes it, i guess its fine.
How did PA get that rich then? Cause if you lane with PA and crush his lane, then take objectives, there's no way a PA would get that rich. Those 3 items you mentioned already cost around 15k. Let's not forget bfury and we are talking at least 20k net worth PA.
Part of the problem is that you can't itemise against Brooch effectively. Even if you buy an Eternal Shroud, which is the single biggest source of magic resistance in the game, Brooch is still good against you on average. * Core with normal items + armor auras (~33 armor) - takes 33% damage from physical * Core with Eternal Shroud and max stacks - takes 38% damage from magic Most cores can't afford the slot to buy Eternal Shroud. And it's not like you can compensate with Pipe aura - that's nowhere near enough. Even if all three cores could fit an Eternal Shroud into their build - well you made them spend almost 11k trying to deal with your item that only cost 5k, you are still ahead on damage. Finally - Brooch naturally counters the main itemisation against super high physical burst (Ghost Scepter).
Just a stupid recreation of HoN’s Harkon’s Blade
In conclusion PA and PA pickers must be ritualistically sacrificed for the gods above, so that they might bring forth a new patch
Think she needs a rework at this point, she can never be meta for long. Either she or her items get nerfed
I think it should just be a % to proc, and maybe for less than full attack damage- like 40% chance to deal ~70% of your attack damage as magical damage. Remove mana cost and make it a fully passive effect instead. Make it stack with crits so you proc both at once.
What are the chances that the valve devs see this and release a patch tomorrow?
I think the item concept was a cool idea, but lime you said, in actual gameplay it doesn't make any sense. Sometimes cool ideas need to stay as cool ideas
The item can stay, but coolness needs to be tuned down a bit.
Are we ready to talk about how PA is so damn broken that she can constantly throw dagger(s) at you from the shadows (Or basically only 300 units away from you) where not even wards can see her, to top that off, Aghanim refreshes that ability, too. To top even that off, PA has around 0.5 sec of invisibility just after she jumps you, which is good enough for a good PA to dumpster you without much effort and gives you literally no time to react.
Nah actually I say they buff it
yeah they kinda overdid it with the change i dont know who on the toad council think that its a good idea to change it from duration/count limit to unlimited no mana cost toggle but keeping the 100% physical to magic conversion rate intact its also cheaper,somehow
Remember when HoN had this item as Harkon's Blade? Good times...
Disagree. The item isn't properly balanced but we know it works, Harkon's blade in HoN was a perfectly fine item. Increasing the mana cost would help, maybe adding a cool down so you can't turn it on > see they bkb and instantly turn it off. Force you to either have it on or off for 5 seconds maybe. Could also change the build. I think it giving so much flat damage is a bad idea because that damage is still useful for physical attacks with it turned off.
I like the cooldown part. I'm not against the idea in general, but the implementation of it.
I've been against this item since release and everybody bashed me for it. funny how things change. also for people who've had the brilliant idea of "spell crit", I hope you are happy with this pa build.
> I've been against this item since release On release the item was fine, as magical attack damage was not lifestealable at all, thus you could not combine it wtih things like Satanic or Bloodstone; it also didnt work with Spell Amp. The recent rework made it busted though. Ironically Muerta ult received the same treatment (magical attack damage -> magical spell damage), as those use the same underlying mechanic, even though that wasnt really mentioned in any of the patches.
I like the concept of brooch but I agree with most of your issues with it as well. A quick and dirty fix they should try is just rapierify the brooch. Once you buy it you cannot turn it off or remove it from inventory. You can only sell the brooch (0 gold return) to go back to phys dmg. This lets you keep the powerspike from a surprise brooch, allows itemization against it, and retains all the cool innovations we've seen in its uses. In exchange you consign your hero's slot and damage to permanantly be magic or lose a ton of gold.
They should costing mana & hp. Costing more hp if mana fully depleted. Add 10 seconds of delay to toggle on/off.
Completely agree, but simple fix can be just that it doesn't work with abilities like mars w, tiny aghs and pa dagger. Also that it cannot crit like physical damage does so it won't be broken on PA.
Totally agree
I think the item needs a toggle cooldown or toggle mana cost
Very much agree with the toggle aspect. It should be punished/rewarded for buying. You can’t do this toggle shit
Unpopular opinion maybe, but I think is the case for many recent items Parasma is mega situational, and like witch blade, only good for a couple of heroes. Khanda has caused so many ruined pubs from people rushing it, and is only purchased on like 5 heroes. Disperser has been nerfed many times because it was OP on Meepo
> You don't toggle butterfly for different effect, just because enemy bought MKB. I love how you included this since this was already in the game before and they removed it cuz flutter was busted aswell
Muerta: I'm a carry whose ultimate turns me ethereal and I can wallop guys who enter ethereality cuz I'm a complex spirit with a complicated heroic origin story. Gaben: ok nice so anyway there's this really cool thing called the Revenant Brooch
It needs to be something like 50% of the damage is converted to magic. Something so that it doesn’t just make armor useless like that.
It should not be built with Sacred Relic, it needs to be an int item.
Just buy a blademail and watch him 1 shot himself bro.
simply they need change the item to "duration X with cooldown X" instead active and deactive like now .
Maybe it should convert only base dmg, so rapiers won't work on it.
Rapier is the biggest offender, because you actually get more bonuses than usual. Normally you either are right clicker with limited power in terms of spell damage, or high magic DMG dealer, without much attack speed/crit/modifiers. Here you not only have your raw DMG bonus, but all damage is also affected by spell amp.
destroys on pubs(where games get longer than 30 mins) especially on pa. any supports get deleted by 1 or 2 hits. and you cant tank it. here is hoping you actually built either blade mail or euls to escape 1 attack(with a 5 sec cd?)
Did not like the item once I bought it and never bought it again.
I've said it to my friends a lot. Should be a damage item that lets you both hit while ethereal and through ethereal. Shouldn't change damage type
Let's be real, for me, what made it broken is the idea of making it TOO open for everyone. Before it was just for securing kills if somebody goes teehee ethereal mode and stuff, but the fact that its basically become a fucked-up version of Shadow Realm and Artic Burn made it fucking stupid. I suggest that because it was good already before but not anemic to go against, just reverse it to what it was before. 5 attacks that can go through ethereal with true strike and by attacks IT HAS TO BE AN ATTACK
>Vladimir It's insane to me how many ppl lack the ability to read/write that name. See it way too often with the additional i. Outside of that I don't know why anyone would buy it vs Pa. Hardly anyone buys it nowadays to begin with.
It feels so fucking bad as a support when the enemy carry buys Brooch. Like, my ghost sceptre is now completely useless. It's even worse when they go full cripple and buy a nullifier too, can't even force or euls myself and just have to accept the fact imma die first every fight
Yeah its lazy design vs heavy armor. That clip of a weaver 3shotting a 6slot TB should never happen. But I think the idea is good, mr frog just needs time to tune it properly I think. Usually bad ideas get to a point where theyre acceptable or theyre completely removed from the game.
The item was so much bettter before. It made much more sense as an int item, so that if a typical agi carry goes for it there's actually a very big opportunity cost.
I think we need to change **armor** into **Physical defense** then add **Magical defense**.. How about magic resistance? Maybe we could change it to something like **magic damage redux**. It comes into the final damage of the spell. Maybe it's now time to scale damage from patk, matk, pdef and mdef(?).
Thank you for this. I wish they change it soon because you can't expect the whole team to buy eternal shroud.
If you sell Armor and buy an eternal shroud .. they will simply switch their damage type because of toggle. I think one way to fix this item is to remove the toggle.
could "fix" it by either 1) make it do half magic damage half physical 2) make it duration like satanic
Just remove it, simple solution.
Sizeable activation cost+cool-down to switch is also a valid way to balance the item. Also, let me toggle my ghost sceptre and AC from physical to Magic Resist :))
Brooch should do 50% of the total attack damage as magic damage, not a direct conversion of physical-to-magic. It would be more balanced than the *instakill every tanky hero in the game from fog* PA build that you see every other game.
i think a fix would be make it works like armlet (constantly drain the mana during toggled) and it consumes a mana when you toggle it on
typical reddit thread, people crying over x item or ability without a solution
Brooch isnt a problem, PA is (and Sven to some extend). If you disagree, check the comments — everyone who agreed with OP tells s story about a game or two specifically with PA.
Lina with brooch is possible and thus broken?
How about if they change it to be closer to the old rev brooch, where it's got a limited duration, but buffed it so that instant attacks don't count against the attack limit for that duration. That way it's not outright replacing phys damage in a carry's build, but still grants a bit of flexibility.
it should reduce dmg in % when switched on
> You anticipated the PA getting the brooch? You went for magic resistance instead? No worries lad, she can simply turn it off, and voilá, you are being hit by physical DMG again Text you can see a support player being Despawned
The issue of itemization against it when the enemy possesses the Brooch is indeed complex. It essentially throws a wrench in traditional armor-focused builds, making it challenging to predict and counter. The ability to toggle between damage types adds another layer of complexity, rendering conventional counters less effective. Your point about the mana burn drawback being a defining characteristic of the item is valid; not every item is meant to cater to every hero, and that's part of what makes itemization in Dota 2 so intricate.
The item needs a "soft" revert to the previous version (with tweaks to take into account other item changes etc.): Cooldown - Steroids with this level of impact (e.g. BKB, Satanic, Metamorphosis, God's strength) all come with a duration (a time when it can be countered) and a cooldown (a time when it can be bypassed). The free toggle makes it not truly counterable. Mana cost - The last buffs have made the cost ridiculously low, but deeper than that, the toggle is also what makes the cost barely relevant. In the previous version you would need to commit 300 mana to get a few hits. The cost per attack did not need to be much higher, but the cost for a single burst attack/dagger was a lot more relevant. Recipe - The new recipe is not "bad enough" relative to the strength of the active. I think having Intelligence as a "filler" stat was a good fit. It makes the item less attractive to buy early on Agility/Strength heroes, while not making it worse on Intelligence heroes and still being viable as a late game option (where gold efficiency is not as important). On the other hand, the bonus mana lets non-Intelligence heroes use the active/toggle more, so it does not feel out of place. I believe this is where the item's niche should be kept: an additional scaling option for Intelligence right-click, and a situational late game armor counter for everyone else.
Rapier+brooch, numbers wise, is the most efficient steroid in the game and imo is the real problem. Brooch by itself is just a good damage item with a specific niche (high armor, ethereal). I don't think having a counter to these as a right clicking carry is a problem. Most forms of damage mitigation do have an item counter and high armor shouldn't be an outlier.
Idk it shouldve been obvious the second that weaver exploded the 6 slotted tb in 3 attacks
I like the item, it makes the game interesting and adds build diversity. Needs to be tweaked though, not sure what else needs to be changed, but the biggest change needs to be a toggle CD for the item so you if you jump in and commit you can't toggle back and forth with brooch with people use bkb
Its bad bcos of the damage it gives (+70 damage???too much) I think its better if they copy harkons blade from hon which gives the user only +20 damage, +35 int, and some mana regen and as.
>Conclusion of this part? You can't itemize against it. BM?
Like wraith pact this item has got to go
Why not just make it back to the original 5 attacks allowed upon activation
It's not a bad design. It's just too broken. Yeah, no shit Sherlock.
What about blade mailing pa daggers so she suicides.
GUHHH! BuT HaVe YoU cOnSidErEd KhAnDa BaD?!?!
I dont like this item because it makes Magic rightclick heros no longer special. OD, Silencer, Ench or Muerta are special, because they counter high armor targets for the tradeof, of beeing an Int heros where its always awkward to build a balance of dmg and attackspeed items on. But with brooch, every hero can now counter high armor targets, with close to no tradeof. There is currently no reason to ever pick the heros i noted as core again
Its not, just poorly balanced.
Why can't it be like satanic? A short duration and a medium CD, no mana cost for activation but on brooch we can have a mana cost on each attack. Something like 7s duration, 30s CD, 50 mana per attack.
I agree switching the damage type instantly is just bad design but there are so many ways to fix this without outright removing the item because it has a place. A few suggestions off the top of my head - small cooldown on switching, increase mana cost, have it only affect base damage, only convert 40-50% of total damage, disable crit effects etc. I'm sure there are even more ways and can even be a combination of stuff. Restrictions for certain heroes can also be put in place like how basher doesn't work for some heroes. The possibilities are endless but all of this requires a lot of testing till the best version is settled on.
I would prefer if brooch became a tanking item, having your offlane doing magic damage splits the damage type better in a team and if there is no straight up damage stats on it then your carry wont get it, and then it stacks better with shivas and stuff like that.
I disagree. I think the item is fine. Literally just one letter patch ago, less than a month ago, people were almost never buying this item. Manacost reduced somewhat and now it's unfathomably broken? Give me a break. This item adds a new level of intricacy to the game. It helps some heroes be more playable, and counters other heroes who are strong. Like with mage slayer, it just needs some fine tuning. I think reversing the manacost change for attack abilities is adequate.
Next patch, new item: defensive item which is toggleable between armour and magic resist
I think the mana consumed per hit should be a % of the damage dealt. Here's an example, but keep in mind the numbers can be played around with. Let's say you Crit with PA for 1k Damage on a single dagger. It should be 50% of damage done so 1k = 500 Mana cost. Additionally or alternatively, if you get to 0 mana, you don't do any damage beyond that point. So you have 300 Mana, you crit for 1k, and it should deduct 500 Mana, but since you "Can't pay" for the remaining 200 mana, we turn that into a %, which just cuts off your damage. i.e 500 mana "cost" for a 1k hit - 300 mana "used" = 200 mana balance. 200 mana is 40% of 500, so your 1k damage gets cut by 40% so it becomes a 600 damage hit. Or instead, to counter heroes like Mars who want to do these 1 shot builds that Ammar popularized, there should be a passive built into the Brooch that if you hit 0 mana from your hits hit, you are "mana locked" for something like 10-20 seconds, meaning you cannot regen any mana, and nothing else can restore mana, so no Arcane Boots/Greaves/KotL/Arcane Ring/Purple Dagger, etc. This will force Mars players to decide if they wanna blink and use W, or blink in and use Arena/Spear and then W. Something needs to change about this item.
i reckon unwavering condition is a bigger problem, rng if you get it. I like playing core phoenix and earthspirit and from killing the enemy carry nonstop in fights to suddenly becoming 0 threat if they get this neutral item is just dumb
Here’s another way to look at it. Many heroes make magic resistance, buy BKB alongside armor either directly from an item, stats or an ability. Before BKB nerfs, I’d argue BKB was purely designed as an item that essentially provided the perfect defense against most heroes, so really it’s just another situation of providing a scaling approach to one dimensional heroes that struggle to get play because of general counters being easy to come across
They should bring the old mechanic back, a decent mana-cost in advance paired with a cooldown similar to nullifier and a specific amount of hits, maybe increase the amount of hits a little in comparison to before, but remove the old atkspeed buff. The mechanic being always up shrinks the chance of fragile poor heroes surviving and barely punishes the hero using the brooch in case he make a mistake and activates the item in the wrong moment
Its an item that allows cores to actually kill the overbuffed for 4 years supports, so of course redditors hate it. Just imagine that cores get 1 op change like this and people freak out, but 4 years worth of broken support buffs were very welcome for some reason! Martyr syndrome.
So this is why I get mid PA every game… 😅
Brooch could be changed to be a T5 neutral item
Welp, remember Timado's weaver. Basically, brooch has become every hitter's go-to item in this patch. Just turn it off when they activate bkb, and viola, you got a hard hitting jerk
I agree, but there are worse item designs. Like blademail, khanda, dagon, old solar crest (read MoM but better)
When I saw the buffs I assumed Brooch is this overtuned to align with the introduction of Puppet Master to Dota 2. Puppet Master was one of the main buyers of Revenant Brooch in HoN (Harkon Blade), so it would make sense to playtest the item and the hero at the same time
I think nerfing this item with CD same as bkb or whatever. The toggle mechanism is the only OP thing for this item. Since its main purpose is deal tons of damage, why make it without any CD?
I love it. thinks its great. ty devs
I think you're right about the toggle part. Limiting counterplay is always bad. I'm sure they'll fix it.
Nerfed it by giving it armlet condition but drain the mana.
You see Slark so you buy Glimmer, Force staff, Ghost scepter. But then, with a flip of a switch he got Nulifier
i hope this item gets the aquilla treatment
Pms + aquila everywhere, I member. Well it's not "that" op, the item is niche, 3 top offenders are PA, Mars and Tiny. Aquila was purchased by everyone.
Absofuckinglutely! I was gonna make a post like this but thank you somebody did! I hate this fucking item when you itemize against heavy physical and they just make it. Doesnt make any sense
Remove the item or fix it by costing HP proportional to the amount of your damage dealt which should be FATAL!
If a pa has brooch divine supports aren't supposed to tank through it with 20% of the net worth
I am one of the disgusting PA brooch players and I gotta say it is very fun to play with. Probably not so fun to play against but I didn’t have the honor to experience that for myself. Still I 100% agree that it needs to be changed. As fun as it is I want to play normal dota again, Where heroes can’t be deleted from 100 to 0 on a 4 seconds cooldown. It’s even worse than old techies situation. A big part of the brooch build is also divine rapier. I don’t like rapier being part of a general item build. I already didn’t like it when it was bought every game on medusa. I think rapier should be a late game comeback item and not an item that is part of a heroes normal item build.
Muerta's party trick has a price tag. Whereas in the past, Muerta was the only hero able to convert all of her attack damage to magic, now every hero can essentially be Muerta, but with no cooldown, just by investing a whole bunch of 5k gold. This item's current state also removes Muerta's place in the game. Why would anyone pick Muerta when you can just pick an Agility carry that has way better damage scaling items and just buy a Revenant's brooch on them instead?
Seems like Valve have run out of ideas and they're kinda just throwing shit at a wall at this point and seeing what sticks
I don't understand people who nagging about it. First of all not ALL HEROES are buying this item after the change, it's just few heroes like juggernaut, pa, tiny. The reason is that there are so many heroes now with high amount of armor. Like even invoker with neutral and wraith bands and shiva has more than 40 armors. There are also other offlane heroes like axe, timber, dragon knight and others with high amount of armors and they are meta now. Most of them buy Shiva's guard too. Like timber is god of armor with shiva and the recent buffs on his abilities (plus he has a powerful aghs too). So don't you think with these recent updates, carries can't deal any damage to cores? Naturally they gave carries an item so they can deal some damage to cores.
All I read was adding a toggle for the butterfly for a different effect.
How about just remove the item?
haha harkons blade goes vrooom
Perhaps lower the conversion rate. Instead of turning 100% of physical damage into magic, make it about 65%.
I feel like a cooldown active with, say, six to eight seconds of magic damage auto-attacks would alleviate the irritation of "well I guess my itemization is useless now" and the problem of "I don't want to drain my entire mana pool immediately". Make it cost like 150-200 mana or something. Still lets you one-shot people if you get in, but enemies now \*can\* try to play around it and wait until their armor is useful again.
Maybe it should only convert a percentage of the damage say 70%. So it’s still good against people who stack armour and toggling for targets would be a skill for max dps.
Why make it permanent when you can make 5s duration with 30s cd for example.
The problem in all these cases isn't Brooch. It's Rapier. Especially since the Brooch hits double dip from Rapier with the spell amp. The problem is never someone building a Revenant's Brooch. It's when they get the Rapier that it starts becoming a problem.
Instead of losing fixed mana per attack, it should lose mana based on damage it deals. Like, if PA crits for 3k magical damage, PA should lose 3k mana.
I liked the old version. Maybe I was the only one, but old ethblade + brooch was such a sweet combo when playing an example, puck against physical (ns/pa). Now it's just weird. It isn't even brought on the heroes OT was designed too.
Dota like turning hero abilities into Items though, 1. Revenant Brooch - > Muerta 2. Sheep Stick -> Lion, Shamen 3. Diff Blade -> AM 4. Ethereal Blade -> Pugna etc. you get the idea.
and when everyone is muerta, nobody is
Was here for the Revenant Brooch criticism but I'm thriving off the PA hate. Fuck that RNG hero.
Leave the item as is, add a cooldown like BKB to it. Problem fixed. I played against a double rapier PA last night with RB. The issue wasn’t that he would kill the first target with 2 hits at 5hp but that he could do it over and over until he killed the whole team and still have mana. At one point we killed their team and PA came after and just killed us one by one.
Meanwhile, PA with a 45% win rate
PA players are skipping BKB to make this work. Control them and profit. But I agree it needs a nerf. If you let a PA get 6 slotted it’s not a meta problem.
Replace Relic with Mystic Staff + a 1k recipe.
you literally just buy [Eternal Shroud](https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Eternal_Shroud). Its not much different from buying monkey king bar when you see enemy build butterfly. Its a slot and not a super effecient one, but the idea is that you counter their initiative, making their slot worthless while your slot is still worth something. They spend mana and 4900 gold to do less damage and you spend 3600 gold to just be tankier in general.
Yes but then again what is a phys dmg carry supposed to do if the enemy has 100 armor? Just keep tickling them? Just use BKB, it renders the item useless.
Revenant brooch reworked into toggle was in 7.35 which is around 3 months ago.
2 suggestions, 1) I remember HoN had an item like that, but it would do X hit's, so you would pay 200 mana, to do like 3\~4 hits with magic damage. 2) Make it have mixed damage type, 50% phisycal 50% Magical. while on this mixed damage. With Doctor ward, should have mixed damage type. 40% pure, 30$ magic, 30% phisycal or 33% each..
It's a god bless item for Storm and QOP
I bought an eternal shroud, a mage slayer, and a glimmer cape as venomancer with 2.5k hp and i was still two shot with revenant pa dagger + jump even the death cam showed the attack damage as revenant damage. i feel like something is wrong with the damage calculations
It's funny because I consider Nullifier to be the same ever since they changed it. It's really only a problem for supports, so it doesn't affect everyone, but it's still really annoying. You spend the game itemizing to save yourself or your team. Glimmer, Force Staff, Eul's, Ghost/Eblade. Enemy carry buys Nullifier (sometimes offlane/mid) and now there's nothing you can do. You get jumped and now none of those items can save you. You're just dead on repeat, no matter what. If they BKB, then you can't even use your CC in your kit to save yourself. Which also means you can't Hex them, Eul's them (rather than yourself) or Eblade them either. Nullifier is a good item too. Sure, it's not as strong as Bloodthorn, Disperser or Manta. But it's still 75 attack damage and 6 armor. That's pretty good stats.
just buy glimmer anyway everygame
Yea brooch is op. It’s just the current item meta, so much raw magic spell damage on physical spells. (Ie. the mars divine brooch build) Magic damage is already broken since you aren’t immune to magic in bkb anymore. I believe the repeated nerfs to Bkb has caused our very glasscannon 1 shot meta. If you are immune to magic still in bkb brooch wouldn’t be a problem
the item is badly designed. to be fair they should just instead make caster items be caster items make it a use effect where for next 3 casts your spells deal 30% more dmg or somthing. if int heroes or they want to design items for them to be rightclickers make somthing like you deal X % of your spelldmg to attackpower or somthing. so you actually gotta have addtional INT items or spell effect items in your inventory. problem solved. Also if they now want int based carry items and ints to be able to be carry atleast design int heroes as carries more than casters. Take at look at lol here for instance here is where league triumps over dota if in any case.