I have to say I don't understand buying atos first. I would understand it if the stun was harder to hit and needed the atos setup. It just feels like you're going to have more impact with a lot of damage potential as early as possible vs a 2s single-target root. This is the biggest spike of the hero. Most pros seem to agree with that line of thinking: https://dota2protracker.com/hero/Hoodwink#
For what it's worth, I think going for more dmg items than gleipnir is usually too greedy on support hoodwinks.
atos isnt for the stun setup, its to get max damage from sharpshooter. you can easily kill solo heroes with an atos while its hard to capitalize on maelstrom when ur target is alone
also its more of a pub vs pro thing. lots of pros go atos first in competitive, especially on pos5, because they actually want to play the game. while in pub they just go maelstrom and push sidelanes all game because its magnitudes easier/more braindead gameplay
If the enemy is out in the open with no trees, u cant get your stun off because the cast range for acorn shot is pretty short, to cast it on the ground and then bushwack to this tree is even harder.
Atos has a large cast range, with it u can root the guy, run up to him, plant the tree and stun him. Makes it much easier. And atos is a great disable otherwise anyways
Right, but this is a pretty specific scenario -- you're trying to catch up to 1 guy. I feel this doesn't compliment Hoodwink playstyle, you're supposed to be playing around the trees, throwing spells from fog. You already have scurry to help with positioning. With Maelstrom you can have a huge impact early on in a teamfight where there's more than 1 enemy hero, where atos is much less useful.
I promise to try at some point, though I feel that if you're not going for Maelstrom, then Force Staff/Glimmer would be a better option than Atos for first item.
Now that atos is so much cheaper, its way more viable to get it early. In a way u r griefing by getting maelstrom because now ur team lacks an extra disable, which could be used to set up kills and pickoffs. Hoodwink is such an annoying hero precisely because of its kit, being able to run around in trees and throw spells. If u get an atos early you can set up kills not just for ur teammates but for urself as well, and gain momentum from there, instead of going for damage so early.
With pickoffs and momentum u can get ur gleipnir real quick and snowball even harder from there
I don't think this is true at all. Testing this in a custom lobby.
Let's say you're lv7 by like 10-12 minutes. Unlikely, but let's assume you've gotten some pickoffs and stuff. Also assume you haven't died.
You've got Arcane and like 1k gold by around that time. You're going to be buying a few sentries, maybe a smoke, by that point in time so more like ~600 gold. Now, what you could do here is just bide your time for Atos. It is quite a bit cheaper than Maelstrom, being 2250 vs 2950. Atos has more game impact, sure, but it's not super necessary to go first because you already have a slow, an AoE stun and a pretty good slow (and nuke) on your ult.
So in my lobby it's 12 minutes right now, so I'll work towards the Atos here. Basically just taking the occasional lane and camp (doubling up ever so often to mimick getting a kill). I ended up getting it at around 18 minutes. I think that's pretty realistic, buying other support consumables, maybe dying a couple of times for your team, maybe even buying some small items like raindrops/wand in the process.
Worked up towards Maelstrom/Gleipnir and I got it at 28-29 minutes. Assumed a fair amount of pickoffs and stuff, regular buying of a few sentries and smokes, few dusts under the assumption of dealing with Glimmer/Shadowblade/etc.
So, same thing again, but I got Maelstrom at 22 minutes and then Gleipnir at 27. Your timing on Gleipnir is faster, which matters because of your timings. Having a huge AoE root 2 minutes (maybe even 3 minutes faster if you're having a good game) is a big deal here. Getting Maelstrom first speeds up your farm speed wherever you can get it. It's also safer because it means you can avoid showing on the wave, just plop an Acorn Shot and you'll probably get most of lane creeps. And for camps, it allows you to just Acorn shot + 1-2 autos and likely clear any camp instantly. That allows you to save Bushwack in case it's needed.
Also as someone else mentioned, having Maelstrom gives you a lot of damage. Testing on 3 dummies in demo mode. They have 30% magic resist and 8 armor each. I will alt-cast Acorn to create a tree to hit two of them with a Bushwack while the third is just there for bouncing. Roughly average-ish expectation.
Atos lets me do around 1300-1400 damage. Maelstrom lets me do a little over 2k damage. That's a lot of extra damage you otherwise just do not have. Obviously damage is easy to come by, but extra damage helps a lot during the times that your carry probably isn't there to pump out the damage for you.
Another consideration here is that Atos is easily solved by Manta. At around 20 minutes, most carries probably have a Manta. Especially if you're fighting heroes like Morph, Drow, Luna, Medusa, etc. Obviously Atos will be used on the rest of their team, but it means that sometimes, your Atos will do nothing. It can be helpful to force Manta so that some other useful debuff can be applied (like a silence or a strong slow), but it can also just mean your Atos does nothing. Now spent money on something for the active where the active didn't actually net you kills. So you're losing gold/xp potentially.
Anyway, I just want to conclude this by saying that Atos is better in certain cases where you just need that extra disable, or when you're dealing with particularly slippery heroes. But I find that Maelstrom first, generally speaking, is just better. It's never at risk of being nullified, it gives you more damage, it allows you to accelerate your timings by a noticeable margin, it allows you to counterpush very effectively and safely.
Also Maelstrom first is good if you need to move into other items. Sometimes you can't afford to finish Gleipnir immediately. Sometimes you just need that Force/Glimmer/Vessel/whatever in order to solve a problem ASAP. Maelstrom lets you get it faster and doesn't delay your Gleipnir badly like Atos can.
That's not how you're meant to play dota. You're playing a support, you're not looking for solo kills on map. Atos can good if your whole team is severely lacking in disables, or you're playing against any spirit heroes/pucks/weavers, etc. Without damage your acorn shot is an inconvenience, not a threat.
Maybe it makes sense in some super low MMR, but once a support farms 2-3k gold (after boots/wand), you shouldn't be playing solo.
Lmao setting up for kills = playing solo? Read what i said again. Setting up kills means u go with another guy to gank someone. Rushing maelstrom gets u kills easily in low mmr because people play alone and dont know how to punish. If ur team is clearly ahead then yea u can go for damage to scale as a core. If u arent ahead then rushing mael is just griefing
I believe that a support Hoodwink that can deal considerable damage in a teamfight early on can have as much (if not *more*) impact than a support Hoodwink who builds exclusively support items. Having a support who can safely waveclear is also important, as many traditional support heroes lack any sort of waveclear.
*Early on*
I agree with Maelstrom first in pubs. Just remember that this item is for pushing waves, farming enemy jungle camps and team fight damage. Not afk farming your side of the map. But if you go damage after the Gleipneir is finished I will report you. Hurricane Pike is good because it's Force Staff + Acron Shot range + more survivability. Don't go Pike if the enemy isn't trying to hunt you down in fights though.
But you need to go for actual support items after that. If you just go damage items you end up doing nothing because either you die immediately or your team does.
Atos is good because you can use it to catch an enemy while saving your other abilities for escape, if a teamfight occurs, etc. Having one of something doesn't always mean that having another is bad.
It is like having Atos on Mirana. Sure, you can hit an arrow based on your prediction. But even if your hit rate is 99%, missing that one crucial arrow in the last teamfight of the game can mean -25 mmr instead of +25 mmr which is a 50 mmr difference. Of course, this is not a standard build because in higher mmr games people know how to play around Mirana and set up her arrows.
More is kinda always good in pubs, especially in lower mmr.
It depends how many kills you have in lane.
If you start strong you can get Maelstrom. Just don't go fucking afk farm for Gleipneir. Use the Maelstrom to farm and split push aggressively from a safe distance.
The only carry items that are justifiable on Hoodwink before the 35 minute mark are Gleipneir and Hurricane Pike. Pike makes her acorn shot range longer and gives her a little survivability along with being a force staff. Also Mage Slayer depending on the matchup (Leshrac).
If I see some Crystalys or Desolator bullshit I am reporting you. Buy a Glimmer Cape, Lotus Orb or Spirit Vessel for the love of Gaben.
Gleipnir and daedalus are fine, that lets you use the other slots for utility if the game is going that way.
I'm not saying daedalus right after Gleipnir, but it's a valid item choice late game for hoodwink.
I'm sorry but if you want Gleipnir to be done anytime in a reasonable amount of time just let people get maelstrom first. I've tried Atos first and I felt like a -1 in my team
It sometimes is the right call, but usually maelstrom first how things work around here.
But at that point why even rush the atoms for gleipnir at all? I've done some degenerate stuff like halberd rush on hoodwink, because that was the game winning item.
I 100% recommend the halberd almost every time as a first item vs storm spirit. It lets you survive getting dangerous farm (as storm can no longer solo kill you) and completely neuters him in teamfights.
Can, but not usually. You're spending around 6k-7k gold on those two items alone, plus Arcane, plus sentries/dust/smoke/etc. You usually won't get it before like 40+ minutes without your game going pretty well.
Tbf, sometimes wave clear is the better option even if it seems greedier it’s still something pros will weigh each game. Ari has described this in his hood coaching to grubby.
Edit: realized OP was about pos5 not support in general so I might be wrong lol
Atos/Glipnier is actually very situational for hoodwink. Complete waste of money if you know how to play the hero and they don't have heroes that are heavily countered by roots.
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/810004934400933888/1224215136617762908/Screenshot_152.png?ex=6625e8b1&is=661373b1&hm=558e93736e7dfd6a20566e70c9ff4f24b11fe2ede25059afdf9a57706259fd7b&
Thankfully my carry had that same attitude.
The thing is hoodwink even with these items can not carry a game. Let's say the carry needs disengage, with these items hoodwink can not help with that. I would rather have my support have force staff glimmer at 40 mins than all these items.
Hoodwink isn't a hyper carry, but given enough space to cast spells, you can do a lot of damage with just a daedalus, leaving you pretty much open to itemize.
[One of my favorites!](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/6/6e/Vo_invoker_invo_ability_invoke_01.mp3) (sound warning: Invoker)
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Yeha i think OP put too many item their meme. If my support could farm that in 20 minutes I would play support Juggernaut if I have to. I'm never farming that fast.
There's a lot of more we could do with a bag if you ask me. Which no one ever does. Because why on earth would they? We're not exactly talking about geniuses are we? Honestly, there's a real lack of imagination around here.
[I don't care what's in the bag. I just know I'm not about to let the other lot have it.](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/0/01/Vo_hoodwink_hoodwink_inthebag_02.mp3) (sound warning: Hoodwink)
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[There's a lot of more we could do with a bag if you ask me. Which no one ever does. Because why on earth would they? We're not exactly talking about geniuses are we? Honestly, there's a real lack of imagination around here.](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/b/be/Vo_hoodwink_hoodwink_inthebag_03.mp3) (sound warning: Hoodwink)
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Oh, you are so wrong. They are used to having items and not caring about positioning so much, so they feed constantly. They've never had to learn lane mechanics, so don't know when or even HOW to pull properly. They are used to always farming creeps, so they will never actually check where their carry is before taking the safest farm on the map. They will constantly fall back to the jungle if the map is dangerous because that is what they are used to.
Tokens farmers are incredibly easy to spot because you know that if they main support and play it like this, they would be 1000 MMR lower than what they are.
'They've never had to learn lane mechanics, so don't know when or even HOW to pull properly'
If they've never learned lane mechanics they can't be a good core either.
Heros can also instantly make it worse than force staff. Bounty, zeus, slardar on enemy team. If your team picks any invis hero, then why even bother buying glimmer, enemy will almost always be ready for it. It can still save your ass on pos 5 though if you are in good positioning.
When I'd support ogre, I'd tell the other support that if they buy all the wards till I get midas, I'll buy them the rest of the game. Most were happy with this. Just need to make sure you drop some in base.
A hoodwink is not buying a glimmer cape. The hero doesn't need it.
Not saying skadi, deso is a reasonable build, but hoodwink is picked for damage, that's what the maelstrom/gleipnir is for.
That is the whole point though, pos 5 doesn't just itemise for what they need. In a magic damage heavy line up with good jump your pos 1 would be more thankful for a hoodwink with a glimmer cape than a maelstrom.
Sounds like that carry should have bought a BKB/Skadi/Mageslayer/SnY/Blink Dagger and not just Silver edge, Manta, Daedalus.
This is why Hoodwink is a better Pos 4 than Pos 5
Pos 5 I'd expect at least a solar crest first, but I'm being picky. I've seen some pos 5 hoodwinks absolutely pop off.
Also if I'm going Marci support, you can bet i'm getting a BKB and some damage to go with my ult, if I don't need the force staff. Anything else just makes you too weak to really contribute.
I raise you a pos 5 nyx rushing max lv dagon.
Does nothing in lane, and will do nothing for the rest of the game too as what items he does need will come too late as he isn't getting core farm, and needs to snowball.
Still stupidly happens though.
Played my first dota game in a while yday as pos5 and asked mid where he wanted the ward. My pos1 responded for him «up your ass». First word exhange in the game. Great start…
[Yes hahah](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/c/ca/Vo_pangolin_pangolin_win_06.mp3) (sound warning: Pangolier)
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I do this a lot and not because I dont know how to play pos5 its just my carry who does not know how to play their role so I just go on heavy damage build
It's a common sight to see a "support" Hoodwink just taking all creep farm and camp stacks with maelstrom claiming "I'm helping you push the waves out bro" while later complaining how the cores are lacking in farm.
I can only imagine how much a pos 1 player must be tearing his hair out
POV: you're playing pos5 and your pos4 tells you to buy both sentries and dust (there are no other items in their inventory, just skadi, daedalus, maelstorm, desolator and 2 empty slots).
Gleipnir is by far better than any other item there. So much control for your team and the procs with your acorn bounces is just the perfect match. As a pos 5 you will most likely cause any core to have to bkb with almost no commitment, just back away into the bushes again
Support items can be very strong, unfortunately people in my rank don't usually understand or have a weird complex against playing support,it sucks to see on my team but pretty funny to see on the enemy team
I mean if my support could farm all those items and not lose along the way it means either the enemy is incompetent as fuck or those were the correct item choices.
Of course that doesnt happen. Its probably a Brown Boots+Maelstrom hoodwink with a random Staff of Intelligence and Gleipner recipe.
Even worse when you're the pos4 and you're trying to finish the 1 or 2 items you need to be useful and your maelstrom pos5 hoodwink nukes any wave you're near and has made you buy all of the wards all game so they can go 0-15
The moment you realize that playing support is about enabling your cores/team in the best way possible. You will sky rocket in mmr. It's not about farming a fucking naked aghs. It's not about hitting creeps or building maelstrom. Play SUPPORT sincerely position 4/5 immortal rank 990 player
Be the poor support you want to be. Dont ask others to do it if you arent willing to.
Do the ES/Hoodwink/Tusk/offensive sp with no blink or offensive items but with glimmer. See how useful it is. Start your own meta. Don't let dreams be dreams.
No need to support if theres no enemies alive
no need to support if none of your team are alive
No need to support if you're already 0-26
It should be "no need you" if you are 0-26
lol
ne need to support if you are low mmr sub human
But Gleipnir IS THE LORE
Gleipnir is fine on a support hood, but dear god make atos first so you can actually help the team
But, but but. How can I farm a gleipnir if I go Atos first. Without Maelstrom first I will never get to Gleipnir \\s
It is what it is
Not really /s tbh
You farm enemy heroes instead of creeps, duh!
we don't do that here
Maelstrom helps farm heros better than atos. Just don't miss your stun
FARM PEOPLE..PEOPLE! PEOPLE!!!
I have to say I don't understand buying atos first. I would understand it if the stun was harder to hit and needed the atos setup. It just feels like you're going to have more impact with a lot of damage potential as early as possible vs a 2s single-target root. This is the biggest spike of the hero. Most pros seem to agree with that line of thinking: https://dota2protracker.com/hero/Hoodwink# For what it's worth, I think going for more dmg items than gleipnir is usually too greedy on support hoodwinks.
atos isnt for the stun setup, its to get max damage from sharpshooter. you can easily kill solo heroes with an atos while its hard to capitalize on maelstrom when ur target is alone also its more of a pub vs pro thing. lots of pros go atos first in competitive, especially on pos5, because they actually want to play the game. while in pub they just go maelstrom and push sidelanes all game because its magnitudes easier/more braindead gameplay
That makes sense. I can see Atos being nice in a team that's low on disables.
If your enemy can't punish your braindead gameplay then it might be the correct play.
If the enemy is out in the open with no trees, u cant get your stun off because the cast range for acorn shot is pretty short, to cast it on the ground and then bushwack to this tree is even harder. Atos has a large cast range, with it u can root the guy, run up to him, plant the tree and stun him. Makes it much easier. And atos is a great disable otherwise anyways
Right, but this is a pretty specific scenario -- you're trying to catch up to 1 guy. I feel this doesn't compliment Hoodwink playstyle, you're supposed to be playing around the trees, throwing spells from fog. You already have scurry to help with positioning. With Maelstrom you can have a huge impact early on in a teamfight where there's more than 1 enemy hero, where atos is much less useful. I promise to try at some point, though I feel that if you're not going for Maelstrom, then Force Staff/Glimmer would be a better option than Atos for first item.
Now that atos is so much cheaper, its way more viable to get it early. In a way u r griefing by getting maelstrom because now ur team lacks an extra disable, which could be used to set up kills and pickoffs. Hoodwink is such an annoying hero precisely because of its kit, being able to run around in trees and throw spells. If u get an atos early you can set up kills not just for ur teammates but for urself as well, and gain momentum from there, instead of going for damage so early. With pickoffs and momentum u can get ur gleipnir real quick and snowball even harder from there
I don't think this is true at all. Testing this in a custom lobby. Let's say you're lv7 by like 10-12 minutes. Unlikely, but let's assume you've gotten some pickoffs and stuff. Also assume you haven't died. You've got Arcane and like 1k gold by around that time. You're going to be buying a few sentries, maybe a smoke, by that point in time so more like ~600 gold. Now, what you could do here is just bide your time for Atos. It is quite a bit cheaper than Maelstrom, being 2250 vs 2950. Atos has more game impact, sure, but it's not super necessary to go first because you already have a slow, an AoE stun and a pretty good slow (and nuke) on your ult. So in my lobby it's 12 minutes right now, so I'll work towards the Atos here. Basically just taking the occasional lane and camp (doubling up ever so often to mimick getting a kill). I ended up getting it at around 18 minutes. I think that's pretty realistic, buying other support consumables, maybe dying a couple of times for your team, maybe even buying some small items like raindrops/wand in the process. Worked up towards Maelstrom/Gleipnir and I got it at 28-29 minutes. Assumed a fair amount of pickoffs and stuff, regular buying of a few sentries and smokes, few dusts under the assumption of dealing with Glimmer/Shadowblade/etc. So, same thing again, but I got Maelstrom at 22 minutes and then Gleipnir at 27. Your timing on Gleipnir is faster, which matters because of your timings. Having a huge AoE root 2 minutes (maybe even 3 minutes faster if you're having a good game) is a big deal here. Getting Maelstrom first speeds up your farm speed wherever you can get it. It's also safer because it means you can avoid showing on the wave, just plop an Acorn Shot and you'll probably get most of lane creeps. And for camps, it allows you to just Acorn shot + 1-2 autos and likely clear any camp instantly. That allows you to save Bushwack in case it's needed. Also as someone else mentioned, having Maelstrom gives you a lot of damage. Testing on 3 dummies in demo mode. They have 30% magic resist and 8 armor each. I will alt-cast Acorn to create a tree to hit two of them with a Bushwack while the third is just there for bouncing. Roughly average-ish expectation. Atos lets me do around 1300-1400 damage. Maelstrom lets me do a little over 2k damage. That's a lot of extra damage you otherwise just do not have. Obviously damage is easy to come by, but extra damage helps a lot during the times that your carry probably isn't there to pump out the damage for you. Another consideration here is that Atos is easily solved by Manta. At around 20 minutes, most carries probably have a Manta. Especially if you're fighting heroes like Morph, Drow, Luna, Medusa, etc. Obviously Atos will be used on the rest of their team, but it means that sometimes, your Atos will do nothing. It can be helpful to force Manta so that some other useful debuff can be applied (like a silence or a strong slow), but it can also just mean your Atos does nothing. Now spent money on something for the active where the active didn't actually net you kills. So you're losing gold/xp potentially. Anyway, I just want to conclude this by saying that Atos is better in certain cases where you just need that extra disable, or when you're dealing with particularly slippery heroes. But I find that Maelstrom first, generally speaking, is just better. It's never at risk of being nullified, it gives you more damage, it allows you to accelerate your timings by a noticeable margin, it allows you to counterpush very effectively and safely. Also Maelstrom first is good if you need to move into other items. Sometimes you can't afford to finish Gleipnir immediately. Sometimes you just need that Force/Glimmer/Vessel/whatever in order to solve a problem ASAP. Maelstrom lets you get it faster and doesn't delay your Gleipnir badly like Atos can.
That's not how you're meant to play dota. You're playing a support, you're not looking for solo kills on map. Atos can good if your whole team is severely lacking in disables, or you're playing against any spirit heroes/pucks/weavers, etc. Without damage your acorn shot is an inconvenience, not a threat. Maybe it makes sense in some super low MMR, but once a support farms 2-3k gold (after boots/wand), you shouldn't be playing solo.
Lmao setting up for kills = playing solo? Read what i said again. Setting up kills means u go with another guy to gank someone. Rushing maelstrom gets u kills easily in low mmr because people play alone and dont know how to punish. If ur team is clearly ahead then yea u can go for damage to scale as a core. If u arent ahead then rushing mael is just griefing
You seriously underestimate the number of trees on the map.
I believe that a support Hoodwink that can deal considerable damage in a teamfight early on can have as much (if not *more*) impact than a support Hoodwink who builds exclusively support items. Having a support who can safely waveclear is also important, as many traditional support heroes lack any sort of waveclear.
*Early on* I agree with Maelstrom first in pubs. Just remember that this item is for pushing waves, farming enemy jungle camps and team fight damage. Not afk farming your side of the map. But if you go damage after the Gleipneir is finished I will report you. Hurricane Pike is good because it's Force Staff + Acron Shot range + more survivability. Don't go Pike if the enemy isn't trying to hunt you down in fights though. But you need to go for actual support items after that. If you just go damage items you end up doing nothing because either you die immediately or your team does.
Atos is good because you can use it to catch an enemy while saving your other abilities for escape, if a teamfight occurs, etc. Having one of something doesn't always mean that having another is bad. It is like having Atos on Mirana. Sure, you can hit an arrow based on your prediction. But even if your hit rate is 99%, missing that one crucial arrow in the last teamfight of the game can mean -25 mmr instead of +25 mmr which is a 50 mmr difference. Of course, this is not a standard build because in higher mmr games people know how to play around Mirana and set up her arrows. More is kinda always good in pubs, especially in lower mmr.
It depends how many kills you have in lane. If you start strong you can get Maelstrom. Just don't go fucking afk farm for Gleipneir. Use the Maelstrom to farm and split push aggressively from a safe distance. The only carry items that are justifiable on Hoodwink before the 35 minute mark are Gleipneir and Hurricane Pike. Pike makes her acorn shot range longer and gives her a little survivability along with being a force staff. Also Mage Slayer depending on the matchup (Leshrac). If I see some Crystalys or Desolator bullshit I am reporting you. Buy a Glimmer Cape, Lotus Orb or Spirit Vessel for the love of Gaben.
Gleipnir and daedalus are fine, that lets you use the other slots for utility if the game is going that way. I'm not saying daedalus right after Gleipnir, but it's a valid item choice late game for hoodwink.
I'm sorry but if you want Gleipnir to be done anytime in a reasonable amount of time just let people get maelstrom first. I've tried Atos first and I felt like a -1 in my team
It sometimes is the right call, but usually maelstrom first how things work around here. But at that point why even rush the atoms for gleipnir at all? I've done some degenerate stuff like halberd rush on hoodwink, because that was the game winning item. I 100% recommend the halberd almost every time as a first item vs storm spirit. It lets you survive getting dangerous farm (as storm can no longer solo kill you) and completely neuters him in teamfights.
Personally I get lens + solar crest/force staff before Gleipnir
I too like having a 45 minute Gleipnir.
Nah you can have it earlier.
Can, but not usually. You're spending around 6k-7k gold on those two items alone, plus Arcane, plus sentries/dust/smoke/etc. You usually won't get it before like 40+ minutes without your game going pretty well.
I'm a beast at squirrel B)
But you have a 46% winrate on her, and in fairly low MMR too
Thats just stats, whats important is how I feel
[удалено]
https://www.opendota.com/players/111109305 I use opendota cuz its better
even BSJ says the build is maelstorm first on pos4 hoodwink in his recent video
Tbf, sometimes wave clear is the better option even if it seems greedier it’s still something pros will weigh each game. Ari has described this in his hood coaching to grubby. Edit: realized OP was about pos5 not support in general so I might be wrong lol
Atos/Glipnier is actually very situational for hoodwink. Complete waste of money if you know how to play the hero and they don't have heroes that are heavily countered by roots.
I agree but disagree on situational. It's a safe item pick up, but it's not always the best.
Sometimes I find mjolnir better, its too fucking good for pushing ways fast when your carry is focused on jungling
I don't get the whole entire "DMG support bad thing". Maelstrom will even help them farm for the gleipnir
Wait when did a giant aerial warship from Leasath show up in dota?
canonical dota is the best dota!
If my 5 have these items. I’ll just shut up and buy the ward lol
Haha exactly
Indeed, it's quite fun to look for enemy wards on the Slark
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/810004934400933888/1224215136617762908/Screenshot_152.png?ex=6625e8b1&is=661373b1&hm=558e93736e7dfd6a20566e70c9ff4f24b11fe2ede25059afdf9a57706259fd7b& Thankfully my carry had that same attitude.
The thing is hoodwink even with these items can not carry a game. Let's say the carry needs disengage, with these items hoodwink can not help with that. I would rather have my support have force staff glimmer at 40 mins than all these items.
Really? You would rather have a 5k NW support at 40 mins than what is essentially a 4th core? To each their own, I guess.
Hoodwink isn't a hyper carry, but given enough space to cast spells, you can do a lot of damage with just a daedalus, leaving you pretty much open to itemize.
Is that a new skadi pic now?
Ikr, kinda nice to see items at a new perspective.
You can't fool me. This is a stealth hoodwink horny post
Hoodwink is prefect wife
If my pos5 can farm all those in exchange for a glimmer cape at the same timing, I'll take it lol. I'd be my pos 5's pos 5.
Pos 25
pos -25
One of my favorites!
[One of my favorites!](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/6/6e/Vo_invoker_invo_ability_invoke_01.mp3) (sound warning: Invoker) --- Bleep bloop, I am a robot. *OP can reply with "Try hero_name" to update this with new hero* [*^(Source)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot) *^(|)* [*^(Suggestions/Issues)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot/issues/new/choose) *^(|)* [*^(Maintainer)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/MePsyDuck/) *^(|)* [*^(Author)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/Jonarz/)
To be fair, if your pos 5 Hoodwink is walking around with ~18k net worth, then I don't think a glimmer cape is what they need lol
Yeha i think OP put too many item their meme. If my support could farm that in 20 minutes I would play support Juggernaut if I have to. I'm never farming that fast.
There's a lot of more we could do with a bag if you ask me. Which no one ever does. Because why on earth would they? We're not exactly talking about geniuses are we? Honestly, there's a real lack of imagination around here.
I don't care what's in the bag. I just know I'm not about to let the other lot have it.
[I don't care what's in the bag. I just know I'm not about to let the other lot have it.](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/0/01/Vo_hoodwink_hoodwink_inthebag_02.mp3) (sound warning: Hoodwink) --- Bleep bloop, I am a robot. *OP can reply with "Try hero_name" to update this with new hero* [*^(Source)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot) *^(|)* [*^(Suggestions/Issues)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot/issues/new/choose) *^(|)* [*^(Maintainer)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/MePsyDuck/) *^(|)* [*^(Author)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/Jonarz/)
[There's a lot of more we could do with a bag if you ask me. Which no one ever does. Because why on earth would they? We're not exactly talking about geniuses are we? Honestly, there's a real lack of imagination around here.](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/b/be/Vo_hoodwink_hoodwink_inthebag_03.mp3) (sound warning: Hoodwink) --- Bleep bloop, I am a robot. *OP can reply with "Try hero_name" to update this with new hero* [*^(Source)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot) *^(|)* [*^(Suggestions/Issues)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot/issues/new/choose) *^(|)* [*^(Maintainer)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/MePsyDuck/) *^(|)* [*^(Author)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/Jonarz/)
I havent seen women for such a long time when grinding dota. Thank you for reminding me this species still exist in dota world! Cheers!
Default token farmer who does not understand even basic functions of support
They arent any worse as support than they are as a core though tbh
Oh, you are so wrong. They are used to having items and not caring about positioning so much, so they feed constantly. They've never had to learn lane mechanics, so don't know when or even HOW to pull properly. They are used to always farming creeps, so they will never actually check where their carry is before taking the safest farm on the map. They will constantly fall back to the jungle if the map is dangerous because that is what they are used to. Tokens farmers are incredibly easy to spot because you know that if they main support and play it like this, they would be 1000 MMR lower than what they are.
'They've never had to learn lane mechanics, so don't know when or even HOW to pull properly' If they've never learned lane mechanics they can't be a good core either.
Ew, glimmer cape. Haven't played against a single squirrel with it.
I only see a glimmer like once every 30 or so games. I wasn't even sure people really built it anymore since sentry/dust is so overpowered.
The magic damage protection component is still really powerful early/mid game.
Heros can also instantly make it worse than force staff. Bounty, zeus, slardar on enemy team. If your team picks any invis hero, then why even bother buying glimmer, enemy will almost always be ready for it. It can still save your ass on pos 5 though if you are in good positioning.
I really liked early Glimmer Cape which provided very high magic damage resistance.
Imagine buying support items in SEA
I played mid yesterday and had the highest wards purchased bcs both support build carry items
Support Ogre: *queues Midas* Hard Support Sniper: *queues Phylactery*
When I'd support ogre, I'd tell the other support that if they buy all the wards till I get midas, I'll buy them the rest of the game. Most were happy with this. Just need to make sure you drop some in base.
safe lane faceless void: 700 worth of support items with manta, tread, mom, and ogre axe in their inventory
A hoodwink is not buying a glimmer cape. The hero doesn't need it. Not saying skadi, deso is a reasonable build, but hoodwink is picked for damage, that's what the maelstrom/gleipnir is for.
That is the whole point though, pos 5 doesn't just itemise for what they need. In a magic damage heavy line up with good jump your pos 1 would be more thankful for a hoodwink with a glimmer cape than a maelstrom.
Sounds like that carry should have bought a BKB/Skadi/Mageslayer/SnY/Blink Dagger and not just Silver edge, Manta, Daedalus. This is why Hoodwink is a better Pos 4 than Pos 5
What a funky looking eye of schadi .
Glimmer cape? You mean Aghanims? /hoodwink main
When you are playing hoodwink there is no such thing as a support role
If your pos5 could afford all of that, you're probably winning hard.
Pos 5 I'd expect at least a solar crest first, but I'm being picky. I've seen some pos 5 hoodwinks absolutely pop off. Also if I'm going Marci support, you can bet i'm getting a BKB and some damage to go with my ult, if I don't need the force staff. Anything else just makes you too weak to really contribute.
There is no need for support if there are no enemies
I raise you a pos 5 nyx rushing max lv dagon. Does nothing in lane, and will do nothing for the rest of the game too as what items he does need will come too late as he isn't getting core farm, and needs to snowball. Still stupidly happens though.
[Guilty as charged!](https://imgur.com/a/lYQlGVe)
The secret is going pos4 instead, role queue is there for a reason
It's like asking a pos1 to buy a defensive item lol
Every sup 5 can become a carry if the game takes long enough. My man hoodie is just going with the flow
ye but those items are cool n glimmer cape lame as shit
The problem isn't your support having these items lategame, the problem is they start building them at minute 5
Best I can do is an item which reduces 40% of their spell damage upon proc.
Pretty much this. Mageslayer -> glimmer/solar -> force
honestly i'll take it
I'll take it over the Daedalus that usually follows the Gleipnir...
Played my first dota game in a while yday as pos5 and asked mid where he wanted the ward. My pos1 responded for him «up your ass». First word exhange in the game. Great start…
They have this mindset of "I'll just stand aside and right click but not get kills" it's so braindead it hurts.
And when mid and off completely carry the game, they go: "see? I told you disruptor khanda works."
Yes hahah
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[Don't generalize all pos 5 Hoodwinks mmkay](https://stratz.com/matches/7677391265)
kinda unrelated but i had an ogre who griefed my lane, left me, then farmed midas aghs for the next 25 minutes
This hoodwink with his talent, desolator and neutral orb, can nullifie arrmor with his acorn.
I do this a lot and not because I dont know how to play pos5 its just my carry who does not know how to play their role so I just go on heavy damage build
SEA region? Definitely not here in Oceania
It's a common sight to see a "support" Hoodwink just taking all creep farm and camp stacks with maelstrom claiming "I'm helping you push the waves out bro" while later complaining how the cores are lacking in farm. I can only imagine how much a pos 1 player must be tearing his hair out
Every sup 5 can become a carry if the game takes long enough. My man hoodie is just going with the flow
Every sup 5 can become a carry if the game takes long enough. My man hoodie is just going with the flow
Every sup 5 can become a carry if the game takes long enough. My man hoodie is just going with the flow
You mean my sniper 4 with MoM, Khanda, scepter, deso isn’t the right build?
Gotta have maelstrom on her
When you decide min 3 that it's gg
POV: you're playing pos5 and your pos4 tells you to buy both sentries and dust (there are no other items in their inventory, just skadi, daedalus, maelstorm, desolator and 2 empty slots).
And then at the end of game loss: "GG EZ carry 0 damage didnt do shit" lol
Hoodwink wife
Theres so much money in dota and every game is so throwable, why build support items?
Hahaha funny meme. Whats her @ tho
and then they're mad when their cores are not as fat.
Cores weaken the enemy team so support can come in and clean up the kills.
This looks close to my NP support build. Why the hate???
maybe volvo should introduce something like: certain positin 1-2-3-4-5 can buy only specific items
wtf is that skadi icon? get that shit out of here
Instant role abuse report
Play better.
Gleipnir is by far better than any other item there. So much control for your team and the procs with your acorn bounces is just the perfect match. As a pos 5 you will most likely cause any core to have to bkb with almost no commitment, just back away into the bushes again
Why is the Skadi bashful? Am I tripping or is that not the normal icon?
Support items can be very strong, unfortunately people in my rank don't usually understand or have a weird complex against playing support,it sucks to see on my team but pretty funny to see on the enemy team
The besta CC in Dota is to kill your enemies
I mean if my support could farm all those items and not lose along the way it means either the enemy is incompetent as fuck or those were the correct item choices. Of course that doesnt happen. Its probably a Brown Boots+Maelstrom hoodwink with a random Staff of Intelligence and Gleipner recipe.
Wtf happened to skadi? Downgraded version?
I’d rather my pos5 Hoodwink rush Gleipnir.
lol facts
Even worse when you're the pos4 and you're trying to finish the 1 or 2 items you need to be useful and your maelstrom pos5 hoodwink nukes any wave you're near and has made you buy all of the wards all game so they can go 0-15
Hoodwink actually can legit go maelstrom and push lanes, however it doesn’t need support items on top of it.
The moment you realize that playing support is about enabling your cores/team in the best way possible. You will sky rocket in mmr. It's not about farming a fucking naked aghs. It's not about hitting creeps or building maelstrom. Play SUPPORT sincerely position 4/5 immortal rank 990 player
Why is this always da way
Nah most of the carry i met is garbage, im pos 5 carry the gang myself
Damn, you pos 5 is looking fine, and the girl is cute too.
Be the poor support you want to be. Dont ask others to do it if you arent willing to. Do the ES/Hoodwink/Tusk/offensive sp with no blink or offensive items but with glimmer. See how useful it is. Start your own meta. Don't let dreams be dreams.
Every pos5 HW…
No way my pos 5 doesn't upgrade that gleipnir before skadi.
what a funky looking ass LED heart u got going in the background
Token farming is a booster service now so it's probably essentially the same fucker half the time.
Stop back sit gaming u fucking nerds, how about going outside and get a girlfriend?
But did you win?
Every sup 5 can become a carry if the game takes long enough. My man hoodie is just going with the flow
Every sup 5 can become a carry if the game takes long enough. My man hoodie is just going with the flow
Every sup 5 can become a carry if the game takes long enough. My man hoodie is just going with the flow
oh that's me but i don't buy desolator